What does it take to manage one of North Carolina’s fastest-growing counties? How do you balance explosive development with the preservation of a community’s identity? In this episode of the Best of Johnston County Podcast, we dive into the big questions with Butch Lawter, Chairman of the Johnston County Commissioners. From the challenges of funding schools amid flat enrollment to the complexities of park development, Butch shares how thoughtful planning—and a few tough decisions—are shaping the future of Johnston County. What would you do in his shoes?

With the new charter schools and the homeschools, why has the funding gone up 25, 30 in just two budget cycles to a school system with a flat or maybe 1 growth model? 


Butch Lawter: that's a great question. 


One that took a lot of debate, 


On, and I will say there's a lot of funding that is in place that became because of COVID. That is not there anymore. And so, so when you kinda get something there, and I'll say it's effective or needed, it's hard to cut away from. 


And then you've got, and that's not counting inflation with the price of diesel fuel and the cost of buses and everything else going up, up, up, up. 


and we're trying to, I will say this for the. The relationship between public schools and the commissioners, when I got on the board was probably not the best. 


And I will say over those six years, 


We have seen the trust. Between the two boards, 


Increased dramatically. 


Jonathan Breeden: Hello and welcome to another edition of The Best of Johnston County podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan Breeden. And today, we have with us a special guest, Butch Lawter, the chairman of the Johnston County commissioners. 


This is our second episode with Butch. And if you missed the first one, please go back and listen to it, where he talked a little bit about Johnston Community College, his time on the Clayton town council, and some of his best accomplishments so far as a Johnston County commissioner over the last five and a half years. 


In this episode with the chairman, we're going to talk a little bit about the Johnston County public school system, a little bit about the Sheriff's Department, a little bit about land use, zoning, and the new parks that he has been spearheading here in Johnston County, an idea that he took from building a lot of the parks in Clayton. 


Welcome butch. 


Butch Lawter: Good to be here. 


Jonathan Breeden: All right, good. So we'll start with not everybody listens to every episode. So we'll say, just tell us, who you are? Where are you from? 


Butch Lawter: All right. Butch Lawter, born in Bat Cave, North Carolina. That is a real place. You can Google that and find out where that is. Lived next door in Chimney Rock for about 15 years, then moved to Spartanburg for about eight years. Lived there, went to Clemson while I was there. Got out of Clemson, came to Raleigh to go to graduate school at NC State. Got my master's in civil engineering at the Geotechnical Concentration. And got out of there, and went to work in Raleigh for about six years. I was working with some people from Johnston County, who kept on telling me that I needed to move to God's country. 


My mother lives in Johnston County. Kim's parents live in Johnston County, her sister. So we've got everybody here in Johnston County. 


Jonathan Breeden: And I'm sure none of them have an opinion as to what the County Commissioner should do. 


Butch Lawter: Sometimes, I get some helpful advice on what county commissioners need to do. That is very true. 


Jonathan Breeden: You get some help advice for me too. I don't know. Listen, but I give helpful advice. 


Butch Lawter: But one of us thinks it's helpful. 


Jonathan Breeden: So anyway, you're an engineer by training, and for a period of time, you were with ST Wooten and y'all built some roads. 


Butch Lawter: We built a few roads. Matter of fact, the Clayton Bypass was one that the time that I was an estimator and helped out with the project management on that. 


Jonathan Breeden: So exactly, what does an engineering consultant do? 


Butch Lawter: So we do a little bit of everything. 


I'm called a senior delivery officer, which basically means I've managed multiple departments or practice areas, as we like to call them. I have utilities group that works with me. We have Stormwater group that works with me. And then we have our funding and asset management team that works with me. And when you think of your talents getting grants to do projects, that is what the funding piece of that does. And then of course the asset management is take a look at, whether it's payment utilities, how do you plan and develop a program to spend money to maintain your infrastructure. So that's the piece I have. 


Jonathan Breeden: Okay. That's good. I know that keeps you busy. And then I think, being a county commissioner could be a full time job or probably is a full time job. It's a lot of work. I don't think people understand how much work it is. Y'all work all the time. 


Butch Lawter: I think I work about 40 hours a week, in addition to the 45 or 50 or so work. So I work a lot. If you ask my wife, how much I work as a county commissioner, she would probably tell you it's more than that. I won't say daylight to dark, but you've got people calling with questions, emails, and then the general things that we're working on trying to make sure, you got a transportation plan, we're trying to get ordinances. Moving forward, we just dealt with the landfill. We're working at the fire service districts. So there's just a lot of things. 


Jonathan Breeden: Yeah, it's a lot. And you have people like me who call and ask you questions, and text you, and all that stuff, because we all have our own opinions. And I think, that is helpful to the commissioners. I think all the commissioners like to hear from the public and consider it, and is not bothered by really any of it. 


Butch Lawter: I would 100% agree with that because I'll say it's biblical that iron sharpens iron. 


So when you text me or call me with a tough question, a lot of times, I may not know the answer, but I've got to go find out. So when you ask hard questions, that makes me go look for answers. And so I've become better educated on things. So it is helpful when you get questions. And I don't know of any commissioners that say, I don't want to hear from the constituents because there are questions you got to answer. And that's how we got an office to get voted in. 


Jonathan Breeden: That's true. So let's talk about the Johnston County Public Schools. It is the single largest part of the county commissioner's budget every year. 


Butch Lawter: Nearly half. 


Jonathan Breeden: It's nearly half. I think, the budget issue was 270 million? 


Butch Lawter: 370 


I remember when it was a hundred million. I remember when it got a hundred million, I think that was a big deal. Now it's 370 million. The school system is largely, the majority of the school system funding for people that don't know comes from state and federal, but the county does put in a pretty good chunk. 


And the county's part, I believe, pays for the buildings themselves, the maintenance of the buildings, the custodians, getting the grass mowed, and the buses, that's mainly, and then any additional positions, like principals and stuff that are not allocated by the state based on average daily attendance, am I right about that? 


And we hear about growth. But for the Johnston County Public Schools, that growth has flattened and a lot of that is due to homeschooling, but also charter schools. 


Jonathan Breeden: And so my question, and I asked all the commissioners this, I've asked you this before. If the enrollment in Johnston County Public Schools is largely, with the new charter schools and the homeschools, why has the funding gone up 25, 30% in just two budget cycles to a school system with a flat or maybe 1% growth model? 


Butch Lawter: That's a great question. One that took a lot of debate on, and there's a lot of funding that is in place that became because of COVID that is not there anymore. So when you get something there, I'll say it's effective or needed, it's hard to cut away from. 


And over those six years, we have seen the trust between the two boards increased dramatically. A lot of conversations between the two boards, a lot of things I know that commissioners, even though it's not our job, since it's half the money we spend is like the new schools, historically that's been a one story. School sprawled out. And now, they're building multi story school, less land, which is already getting more and more expensive, but less land. And considering, I think they're going to redraw the district lines. 


So a lot of things that we're working together on to try to do things more efficiently, because they originally asked for, I think for 111. Actually, I think they asked for more than that. And so, we paired it back because we balanced the same thing is, how do you ask for an increase of 20% when enrollment increase is flat? 


Butch Lawter: Yeah. And some of that is teacher supplements. 


Again, it's reality that we're losing teachers to Wake County or other places that are paying more. So we can't make up all that difference, but we do want to just like we did for the county employees. And we did a pay study. We adjusted. I think the 1st adjustment was like $8 million additional funding that we needed for employees the first go around. We're doing that every year now, half the employees every year, so it's not quite as dramatic, but the school system is the same lately. We want to keep the good people. And to do that, you've got to pay them. 


Jonathan Breeden: So do you know what the county supplement is for the teachers now? 


And so we're trying to get to that with coming off of Esther and losing a lot of money, this is that. So hopefully next year, we can go to something that's, here's the percent inflation we're going to factor in. And it does include charter students now. So even though you separate them out, the numbers charter schools are public schools. 


Jonathan Breeden: Right. They are, absolutely. 


Jonathan Breeden: Yeah. ALA just opened here last year in Johnston County. And of course, news charter has been there forever. And I forget the name of the charter school behind the Walmart and Clayton, but it's still there. 


Butch Lawter: Johnston charter. 


Jonathan Breeden: Yeah. It's still there. And there's talk of other charter schools. I keep hearing about one coming to Clayton, near the 70 where 70 Bypass 70 Business meet. That one hasn't been built yet. And I don't know who's going to do it, but I still think it might happen. 


Butch Lawter: I think there's one somewhere in the boroughs area as well. 


Jonathan Breeden: Yeah. But one of the topics is, we're going to run. 


There's a school bond this fall. And I don't know how much it is or what it's for. I know, Cleveland High School gets a new wing out of it, if it passes. 


Butch Lawter: Yeah. Actually, the Cleveland wing is separate. 


Jonathan Breeden: Oh, separate. Okay. 


Butch Lawter: Yeah. So that was separate from the bond. In this year's bond, there are four additions to elementary schools. 


I feel like we can almost see a flattening out where we're not 17 schools behind, that we're getting to a point that, maybe with another school in a few years, we'll get there and some expansions, and then some maintenance on the existing schools. 


Jonathan Breeden: And I know Cleveland High School is going to get a new wing. 


Butch Lawter: It's away with 20 something mobile units. 


And I guess, they've started building Wilson's Mills High School. 


Butch Lawter: I think the groundbreaking is in about three or four weeks out there. I think it's the 13th. 


Jonathan Breeden: Yeah. So there's going to be a new high school in Wilson's Mills. I know, that's much needed. And there's been some debate about among the school board about whether it should have Astroturf or grass football fields. I don't know ultimately what they decided there. 


So, do you believe the commissioners should chip in through bonds or general fund to pay for charter school construction? They are public schools. We have not done that so far, but should we? 


Butch Lawter: So I don't know the answer to that one yet. But I do know, with the legislation as it exists today, it says that counties may do that. And so with news charter may came to us and made an ask of us this year, and it's like mostly, we don't know if we want to be the first one in, but we were working through the, what does it mean, if something were to happen, who would own the building if they were to sell it. So we're working through some of that. 


So the counties provide capital cost. And it's really a interest because some of them are for profit, some are not. And so, are you providing money for somebody to build a school and they're going to make a profit off of it? So there's a lot of things to work through, but bottom line, they are public schools, people are choosing to go. 


And as you mentioned off air, we're talking about opportunity scholarships and as that increases, I think the likelihood, that there'll be more charter schools. So I think, that's likely in the future, whether we want it or support it or not, I think that's probably going to be where we go. 


I know L.A. is out of Arizona, I believe. Not sure where Johnston Charter is out of. Maybe Alabama, but I could be wrong. I think that's where that company's from, so it is a different thing, but yet they are still educating kids that need to be educated. They are receiving 7, $8,000 per student that the other students are getting. 


I get it's for profit, but they're still educating kids and that's the school building, but the taxpayers aren't paying for. So there is that too. So, I think that's something to look into. 


Butch Lawter: Yes. And I know the Johnston County public schools, they're things they do, the transportation and meals that they provide. 


Jonathan Breeden: I understand. Another big thing that the county commissioners do is they fund the sheriff's department. Now, we have an elected sheriff, Steve Bizzell. He's been sheriff in Johnston County since 1998. I think he's one of the best sheriffs in North Carolina. But what role other than funding sheriff, it's a huge part of your budget. 


Y'all do anything else with it or just hand him a check? You just build him a jail. 


Butch Lawter: Yeah, I hate to say, we handed the check. But we do have the financial checks and balances with Chad McClain, our chief financial officer and deputy manager. He handles. As you said, we have one of the best ones in the state. 


But I think, that moved us way down the road and should last us for decades. 


Jonathan Breeden: Yeah, did we signed an agreement with the feds this time to where we got to where we have to give the fed inmates of beds for some money or not? 


Butch Lawter: So I think, that contract is up and we did not renew. 


Jonathan Breeden: That's good because I would have clients in the jail, and I would go and they'd be on the floor because the federal inmates showed up in transit or something. And the federal inmate was guaranteed a bed. And our citizen, while he was in jail, had to sleep on the floor. And I just didn't think that was right. 


Butch Lawter: Yeah, that was fit in the last month or six weeks. 


Jonathan Breeden: Okay. That's great. We do have a good sheriff's department. You know how much approximately sheriff's department, cause you got a jail, you got all the deputies, all that. You remember approximately what it is in the budget? 


Jonathan Breeden: Okay. All right. That's cool. 


Next thing I want to talk to you about is the new land use plan. Everybody talks about the growth in Johnston County. And a lot of people have this sort of drawbridge thing where they moved here, and now they want to roll up the drawbridge and I want everybody else to come to Johnston County. 


Explain why that is not possible, and what the county commissioners are trying to do to manage the growth that they cannot stop? 


Butch Lawter: So I think you're right, that being able to stop it is not something that we can, even if we said, we're shutting off water and sewer, there's still a well in septic. If people want to sell their land, they can sell it. And so, it's going to happen. 


But we're also looking a lot of the farmland preservation, open space preservation, because the agricultural history in Johnston County is important. And when we did the land use plan, 70, 75% of the people, that was their top priority was preservation of farmland and open space. 


But again, if somebody wants to sell their property, there's not a whole lot the county can step in and say no. 


Jonathan Breeden: I don't disagree with the plan of trying to push it towards the towns. The towns cannot annex without a vote. So how exactly are the towns supposed to be, you former town council member in Clayton for a long time, supposed to absorb this density that you want to be built on its borders, when it can't really annex unless the people agree to it? 


Jonathan Breeden: And so the town would annex these developments before they are built, extend the water and sewer, and then they would be town residents as the houses get built. 


Butch Lawter: Yes. 


Jonathan Breeden: Okay. All right. And Clayton has got a new water treatment plant that is almost done. 


Butch Lawter: Almost done. 


Jonathan Breeden: And so that's gonna be nice. And the county has a new water treatment. 


Butch Lawter: Yeah. Actually, our new one has been operational for a few weeks now. That one is been open, so that expanded us a net of 2 million gallons. And I think that our next meeting will award a contract to build the next 4 million. 


But again, we're limited to the news. We know one of the things we're looking at [00:21:00] is regionalization. All the towns have come together, been meeting for over a year, looking at how we can do things better and what regionalization would look like. 


It mean, we're looking at Harnett County, and the Cape Fear is an option. We're looking at Wilson County. We've talked with Goldsboro. So we're looking at ways to how we can work regionally to provide the water, which is a very limited resource. Matter of fact, the most limiting resource. 


I think most people get tired of me saying this, but sewer is a big issue, but you got to have water to flush your toilet. So, 


Jonathan Breeden: that's true. 


Butch Lawter: The water is the critical. 


Jonathan Breeden: So where did the commissioners end up with the lot size? And because it bounced around, and I think it ended up a little bigger than the initial plan, but maybe not as big as some other people want. 


Butch Lawter: Yeah. So I was trying to say, that's been a while since we got that. I can't remember that number. I know, it was not an acre. I want to say it's 25,000. But if you're in an environmentally sensitive area, it's more, but I can't remember those numbers. 


Jonathan Breeden: I think it's gotta be at least a quarter acre. 


Jonathan Breeden: How many 30,000 square feet as it relates to an acre? Cause I don't. 


Butch Lawter: 40, that's a three quarter. That's about three quarters. 


Jonathan Breeden: Okay. I got you. 


Butch Lawter: Join it for this 40 something. So it's about that. 


Jonathan Breeden: Right. I know, if you look at a lot of those lots in Wellesley or 0.2, 0.25, there might be some lots in Wellesley. There are 0.19, particularly the ones on, 


Butch Lawter: but they got sewer. 


Jonathan Breeden: Yeah, they have sewer right on Raleigh Road. 


Butch Lawter: The other thing with the land use plan too is trying to get more mixed use, it is not all houses that you have something so somebody could walk to a retail or a grocery store or something like that to make communities walkable. 


So I think, you'll see that change rather than just be houses. And Cleveland, you got houses and you got a node along 42, where everything is that this will be more sprinkled out, where you've got that more mixed use development. 


Butch Lawter: Can I add something to that? 


Jonathan Breeden: Sure. Go ahead. 


Butch Lawter: The next piece, we've got the land use plan, which is a nice picture, but the ordinances, which we just started that contract developing that, which would probably be a 12-14 month process, that's where the teeth are. So that's when you'll get into the lots. I've got years on that. You'll get into different lot sizes and all that. So that'll be where the teeth are. And so, that'll be when things kind of start solidifying and people understand what the real impact of that. 


Like I said, the land use is the picture, and then you're going to get into the details on the ordinance. 


Jonathan Breeden: All right. Cool. 


The last subject we'll cover in today's episode is parks. You were probably the number one cheerleader for creating a county park system, creating a county parks and rec department, the hiring of Adrian O'Neal, a former guest on The Best of Johnston County podcast, and the helping get the land. 


How's this going to go? 


Butch Lawter: Yeah. So in Clayton, I did realize that the addition to the quality of life that the parks provide for families to go to for people my age and older to be able to just to go out and walk are doing something a lot more active than me. So go out and participate in whatever form of the recreation they want to. But I saw, that's the difference that made in the quality of life for the people. 


And so, when I became on the county commissioners, that was one of the things I wanted to bring to the County was doing that. Because what happened in the County is, people would get together, they have some great ideas that get a plan together, and then they would all say, Oh, this is a great idea, great plan. And they would walk away, and nobody was left to connect the dots. 


The parking in Cleveland is that's now somebody's job to say, what do we do with this next? Let's do a master plan, and keep things moving rather than it build up, and just go away. So I think that's the biggest piece. And I'll say a regret that I have an early on in my commissioner career, we had the opportunity for the special tax district for recreation. 


And at the time I thought, there may be a different, better way. Four years later and look back, that probably should have been the mechanism we use to fund the park because it's really hard to sell the county wide bond for a park in Cleveland to the folks in Four Oaks or Princeton or Pine Level. 


Jonathan Breeden: I know, you've just put out the first $3 million for bids. 


And Adrian O'Neal taught us about that. It's going to be some of the parking lot, some of the drainage, I think there's gonna be a drainage pond, and maybe a basketball court. And this initial thing that's going to take a couple of years to get done. And then we'll go from there eventually, when it's finished, which could be, 10, 15 years from now, it would take over the original GCA land behind the old school, the gym gets replaced, those fields get redone, the Clayton Park will have multi use fields, an Amphitheater. It's going to be really nice. I just know the price tag. I saw was $50 million. And at this point, if you don't go back to the special use district, I'm not sure how Cleveland gets $50 million. 


There's going to be other, I don't know if that's 80 or 70, but somehow we need to figure that math out and figure out, okay, it makes sense for Cleveland to pay for this percent and the rest of the county to pick up this percent, and wherever we go and the same thing. 


Jonathan Breeden: Yeah. And that's the biggest thing is most of the middle school and elementary school fields in Johnston County are not lighted. And the high school fields get used so much by the high schools. They're not really available for the community organizations, like the Greater Cleveland Athletic Association, like McGee's Crossroads Athletic Association, like Archer's Large Parks and Rec, like The Meadow Group, and South Johnston Baseball and all of that stuff. And I've been in the middle of this at being on the board of the Greater Cleveland Athletic Association for a long time. 


I just came off that board, but I do appreciate everything that you've done to try to at least get you, and particularly Patrick Harris have done about, to at least getting us having this discussion so that we can move forward. And for people that don't know, a special use tax district would act like a fire tax on your property tax bill. 


The proposal that was voted down a few years ago by the commissioners would have added 4 cents on the $100. I think our tax rate this year is, y'all cut it to 69, 70, 


Butch Lawter: 67. 


Jonathan Breeden: Right. Yeah. 


Anyway, so that would be $80 on a $200,000 house. And that money would be used to fund a Cleveland park, if the commissioners decide to go back and do that. I don't know if they will, but it is definitely on the table as the chairman just said. 


So I guess the last question we have for everybody on this podcast, what do you love most about Johnston County? 


Butch Lawter: I'm a people person. So I moved here because of the people, and the relationships, and have developed many more. And it's one thing when you go out and you hear people talk about Johnston County. And what it's meant to them and whether they've been here forever, or they just been here and the people moving here, just what an opportunity to have affordable housing, and have a place to raise their family. 


So to me, that is the success is when your children, grandchildren, they don't have to move somewhere else to accomplish what they want to accomplish. So that is the measuring stick for me. 


Jonathan Breeden: I would agree 100%. And like I said, we'd like to thank Butch Lawter for being our guest here on The Best of Johnston County podcast. 


This is the second episode that he is on. Go back three or four episodes and listen to his previous one, where he answer some other questions about what he did on the Clayton Town Council, and some of his greatest accomplishments as a county commissioner so far, and Johnston Community College. 


If the legal aspects highlighted raised some questions, help is just around the corner at www. breedenfirm. com.