Welcome to our latest episode, where we dive deep into a fascinating topic - the relevance and importance of resumes in today's job market. We explore the bold assertion that the traditional resume may be an outdated method of assessing job applicants. In this episode, we share our personal insights into the ever-stagnant job application process and why the conventional resume may no longer suffice.

This engaging conversation encourages hiring professionals to think outside the traditional resume box and focus on attracting the best candidates the first time. Tune in to learn more about a potential alternative to the resumes.

Join us on this journey as we challenge established norms and usher in a new era of job hunting and recruitment!

Relevant episode links about resumes:

• Resumes Are Outdated: It’s Time to Forget the 540-Year-Old Hiring Tradition | Sprockets - This article is a fun tipping off point for the show and discusses the potential origin of the resume.

Did you know the resume is 540 years old?

What?

No, it's what?

540 years old?

Hiring tradition.

540 years?

Yeah.

I don't believe

you.

Well, it was on

the internet.

I'm so angry at you right now.

It was on true social.

Can you imagine how shitty that would be like having to pen your resume over and over and over.

Chisel?

Yeah.

How old's

the pen?

Pen and paper.

Wait, let's think about this for a minute.

Flinstones, right?

Get a, carve it in the rock Hand the rock to somebody.

I don't, there was,

there was pen and paper in the sit.

Come on now.

Yeah, like, yeah.

That's like Jesus Times.

Right.

Funny.

Well, let's see here.

There's Beasty.

We're about zero

thousand years.

Yeah.

Uh, let's see, maybe not pen, but Quill.

At least Quill.

Oh yeah.

You're like Quill and papyrus.

Mm-hmm.

Like for sure.

I'm sure Blood.

Oh yeah, that shows commitment.

Yeah.

This dude wrote this resume with his blood.

You know what?

That or someone's blood.

So here's probably where it really came from, is that a guy in one town, all right, is like, I'm a really good horse shooter.

Okay?

But he wants to move to his another town.

You talking

about resume or

a pen?

I'm, I'm talking about resume.

Okay.

So this guy, but this is probably where he was born from.

All right.

Is this guy lives in a town and he's a horse shooter.

He's a hell of a horse shooter.

Horse shooter, plays a blacksmith.

He s shads horses.

He SHOs the horsey, and so he's a blacksmith.

And he's like, I wanna move to that town.

I want to move to North Farmington.

So where

is he?

Where, where is he right now?

Is he like South Farmington

or He's Eden East.

East Farmington.

He east far, so he wants to move to South.

I would wanna

move to, he's no South Farmington.

Come on Bra.

He, he wants to move to North Farmington.

All right.

But, and he's like, all right, how am I gonna get a job in North Farmington?

All right.

So he writes a letter and he says, Dear North Farmington Blacksmith, I am really super terrific, horse shotter.

All right, here are my qualifications.

I've shot a hundred horses.

I did, I made a, uh, uh, ax for the Earl of West Ham Village Uhhuh, and please see my qualifications and please hire me.

All right.

That's probably where it was born from.

And that guy was like, okay,

I, I'm willing to bet that guy was like, uh, I can't read.

That's actually

really true.

He's like, what's this toilet paper?

Yeah.

Free

stuff.

All right.

That's probably where it was born from.

Here you go.

So sprocket's ai, um, just a website.

I, I think they do, um, like hiring, um, practices type of stuff.

It's obviously an AI platform.

Mm-hmm.

Um, let's see what it says.

It says the exact origin of the first resume is unknown, yet historians have substantial evidence to credit none other than.

Leonardo da Vinci.

Whoa.

1482.

Really?

He sent a handwritten letter outlining his abilities and experience for an engineering job to luco Sova Soza.

That's a tough one, although he did not actually get the position.

His handwritten letter has had a lasting impression on Sforza, S F O R Z A.

Yeah,

I'm glad I'm not reading that.

Oh, sza, yeah,

SZA of the, of, uh, of

North Farmington.

Of, well, of North Italy, right.

North.

Um, sure.

So, uh, he became the Duke of Milan, which is in Italy.

It's in Italy.

I'm just kidding.

Like, it's, it's above the southern tip.

So I guess that's northern.

I, I would say that that's Northern Italy.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm not trying to say I'm really, you know, dialed into my.

Italian geographical

areas, but I'm impressed you knew the name and where, where he lived.

Like, that's all right.

And it's

Sza se sza.

Sephora.

Sza come the,

the, the v really kind

the, you gotta pop the v I gotta pop it.

Yeah.

540 years old,

so that's cool.

I don't know have any other stats about how many resumes.

I, I did a little research, but resumes in general, people love 'em or hate 'em.

A lot of, a lot of people think they're outdated.

What, uh, what are your thoughts

Taylor?

My thoughts.

I mean, I got lots.

I am in the midst of finding a new job, so resumes are my world right now.

It's all of the resumes I've, I've put together and then submitted and all, all the careers and opportunities and

I like deserves like really any real credit, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It is a necessary evil at the very least, but I don't know if they actually do anything besides just.

Show who you're trying to get jobs with that you're not like, I don't know an idiot.

Are, are

you a one resume person or do you tailor No, everyone intended,

but tailor every single one.

You really I do.

Wow.

I do.

Yeah.

Kudos.

They, they're, they're obviously similar themes, right.

You know, my background.

Yeah.

Uh, you know, you kind of, you know, Adjust, you know, the focus and a little bit of the language.

So, and you've got the template and everything, but nope, every resume I submit has been like tailored for like the key words

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Nice work there.

Thanks.

Yeah.

It's frustrating and annoying that like, you send it and then again, most of them you never hear back and Yeah.

So I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sure resumes are all that.

You know, useful for getting jobs as a starting point.

I'll say that.

Right, right.

They're useful and, but like as the step one, it's not shown to be effective in my, uh, experience.

Cool.

What about

you?

Are you question though for Taylor?

Yeah.

Now, are you writing your own resume or do you have a professional resume writing?

Person.

So I've used,

so I've used resume builders, I've used, um, I've had like, uh, several, uh, colleagues and like friends, um, edit

So yeah, I've, I've gotten it to a point where like, I think what I have right now is like, it's, it's like hitting all the

Mm-hmm.

But, Yeah, it's, it's, I don't know, it's re resumes aren't what get you a job, right?

It just gets you in the door maybe sometimes.

Possibly,

yeah.

I, I would say it might not even, it's, it's almost like.

Handing somebody your business card.

Mm-hmm.

Like mm-hmm.

It's a way to get in, it's a way to tell somebody, this is my name, here's how it's spelled, and here's how to get in touch with me.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Um, cuz really, I mean, you know, you think about it like, you go out in the real world and you meet somebody and I mean, you know, you're,

But a good thing about a business card, like I said, Hey, yours is how to spell my name.

And here's a good way to get in touch with me Yep.

By either email or phone.

Yep.

Um, and, and here we go.

Right.

Like, and, and then you start building upon that relationship, not the other way around.

Yep.

So, um, yeah, I mean, my, my thoughts, I, I don't go very deep because I think there has to be something better than the resume.

Yeah.

But I have no idea what that is.

And

we'll figure that out by the end of the show.

Yeah, definitely.

And like I said, I think it's a, it's a business card, but Yeah.

But it is, I mean, if you talk to somebody and you said he, he's your very man, I, I love this guy.

You need to hire him.

And he goes, I trust you a hundred percent.

I'm gonna hire him.

Send me his resume.

Yeah.

Like you, it, that's just the very, very next thing outta the person's mouth.

You

very important distinction though.

Yeah.

You had someone say, Hey, this guy's awesome.

Yeah.

That's the step one.

Yeah.

Right.

Like, that's the distinction.

Yeah.

But, but, but again, you, you still need it.

Yeah.

I, I would take it, take that even a step further and abstract the, the hiring from the resume in that case also because, What I've seen

Mm-hmm.

So send me your resume, I'll get you in the system.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

I'll never look at your resume again, right?

No.

Yeah.

Right

at all.

Yeah.

Yep.

Something I read was, and I, and I think we, we know this to be true, that.

Those systems now are essentially keyword scanners.

Yep.

Right.

You know, they're, they're AI tools and they're, you know, just engines that are, you know, they're screening to, like, this

Right.

It's like a mesh.

Right.

And if you, you're smart enough to get through the mesh, people are then gonna, okay, here, here it is.

I'm not gonna read these.

I'm just gonna call these people for the next round.

Right.

I'm going to, maybe we'll interview these sets of candidates, but.

You know, I think from what I've, what I've seen there is just like the resume in itself and like all the like energy that you put into it is

It's not actually going to share, share, share what you're capable of.

Like, it's not gonna tell anyone if you're good at your job or like how effective you were at your job.

It, it's just like a, it's like a tool, it's an instrument of.

Can you, can you play this game?

Right.

I guess it's almost like that.

What bothers me

consistently though is if you have a resume and you, you have put a decent amount of effort into putting, uh, matching keywords up with the

You still don't get called.

I mean, for sure there's been some jobs I thought I was like, this is, this is a perfect fit for me.

Mm-hmm.

So there's, there has to be something else that, that, that happens behind the scenes.

And I, I feel like I should know, cuz I've hired a lot of people.

But, you know, when I look at resumes, I don't even know what I look for to be perfectly honest.

I try not to look at 'em.

I, I really prioritize stuff with cover letters first.

Okay.

Which nobody does anymore.

Now some recruiters don't even recommend.

Doing cover letters.

No kidding.

And I've seen that a lot.

And so people don't, aren't incentivized to actually do that.

Huh.

So then it really does become part of the

keyword search.

I'm writing cover letters for every role too.

Customizing those as well.

So that's interesting to hear.

And like an extra blow.

I'm just like, like, right.

Like not even needed and I'm doing this extra step and it's still not enough.

Like it's annoying.

I don't know.

I'm pissed.

Yeah,

it is.

It, and the there, the, given the lack of the feedback loop too, of why you were passed is, is probably what makes this so confounding

Yeah.

So when that misses.

Hmm.

So tell me, tell me more about, I'm, I, I want to unpack that a bit.

Let me ask you, Brett, in your position as like a manager who hires people, people, and with your organization that doesn't require cover letters,

what you are looking for or like how you're using the resume to get to the next step and others that you work with that are also in hiring positions?

I'm just curious like what.

What is the function of the resume when you're hiring people?

That's for talent acquisition.

Right.

Um, and, and really the keyword search.

So there is a handoff process where, where we have people sourcing mm-hmm.

Leads, and this is generally any company I think, right?

Like they have people that are sourcing leads to, to fill a position.

They get the resumes, put 'em in the system.

If the, the talent acquisition person thinks it's.

It's a good resume.

Which, which is part of the first problem, right, is they're not as close to the job.

Mm-hmm.

So them doing the first asset, weeding people out is probably a big problem.

Mm-hmm.

So once, once they call the people and make sure, you know, salaries acceptable and all that, not to waste people's time,

Mm-hmm.

Uh, at which point I'll, you know, say, Yes, I, I'd like to screen them.

No, I don't want to screen them, uh, for whatever re ever reason, and I think I have what I'm looking for in my head,

Yeah.

So now the people that I have in front of me, Are maybe a very small percentage of the people that I probably want to talk to.

Yeah,

that's what I was wondering too, is do you have an idea of how narrow the playing field gets cut before from the point

No, it's, it's really difficult.

So, I mean, obviously, so resumes are so different, right?

For every person, years of experience, for example.

Right.

Seems like a very good filter to, to put on somebody, but mm-hmm.

Um, I can look at some resumes with half the years of experience and say, I I'd like this a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, typically speaking, I'll just look down a resume like super fast and scan it and then say, I want to talk to this person.

I don't want to talk to this person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and if I have the time, I will actually go do some of my own sourcing.

Yeah.

Um, but you know, when, when you have different goals, And this is an added job on top of that.

Mm-hmm.

It makes it really difficult to do that.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Do you ever, like, uh, any resumes that stand out?

Like if somebody sent theirs in on like orange paper, would there ever be a gimmick that would catch your eye?

So these are all typically on the, on, you know, some sort of text version PD that have just been munched by whatever

see anything that has any, never any color, any gimmick.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know what better word to say, but like something kind of gimmicky, right?

Like a Oh, like

big, big photo.

Like a headshot

picture,

maybe?

Yeah.

Oh, man.

Okay.

Yeah.

Maybe that's what you need to

do.

You know, the best.

Jimmy Tip I've actually ever heard was to take the entire job description, copy it, paste it in a footer, one point font, make it white White, yep.

And then submit that to the system.

Yep.

And just trick it like that.

I've, I've actually never done it.

I'm starting to get to the point where I'm like, maybe I will try this.

I think you should try that.

Yeah.

And I think you should try one with your face.

A headshot.

I'm just saying face is, like

I'm saying, I'm saying that is an example of a gimmick.

If I see a big ass headshot in that I'm out.

Yeah.

And that's if I, if I see a, a left rail that's color, that's almost half the page that, that's trying to be artsy.

Yeah.

I'm out.

Yeah.

I'm like, I do not have time to hunt and peck for information.

I want just a simple list of here's where I was, three things that I did.

Like literally.

And it depends on the role too.

Cuz sometimes say for example, you're going for like a graphic design position.

Mm-hmm.

Like your resume can be the first tryout essentially of like, hey look at my skills and my chops.

Which maybe includes a, I looked into that too cuz I, I actually did think about that.

I'm like, should I start including my, my headshot?

You know, as I've heard or maybe seen, but I think conventional like, You're going for a white collar,

They don't, they don't want any fufu, anything they want, they want, what have you done?

Just do

it like we've always done it for 540 years.

Yep.

This

is a good point though, and I'm

just a, I'm asking a question.

Let's talk about it.

Like do we, I mean maybe that's the problem in itself is that we haven't thought about this differently as both.

Well, maybe primarily as like job seekers.

Right.

And I think this goes in line with our, we, we like to push back against the status quo mentality that we talk about on the show.

And I think that's kind of what you're getting at Ben, is like, do we, we need to kind of change the way we

Mm-hmm.

Well, you, it's such a big machine.

Mm-hmm.

Right now, I, I don't even know how you would start to change it.

Like to get a job.

You literally are talking about putting one point font in white at the bottom because AI algorithms are scanning it and passing.

Yep.

Which I would argue if that's the case, then I should put that stuff at the bottom in White Point.

Yeah.

One point font if I think that I'm a good fit.

Yeah, yeah.

Why wouldn't you?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But whatever you can do to get your foot in the door.

Right.

So

it's, all right, so let's talk, let's fix it then.

Let's, what, how are we gonna do it different?

What will we do differently?

Ben, I know you have thoughts about this.

Well, I don't know exactly what I would replace the quote unquote resume with.

I, I think there has to be a, I said this jokingly before, but, you know, same thing with a, with a business card.

Like what's the point of a business card?

To make sure that your name is spelled correctly and that your email and phone number are correct.

That's why you hand it to somebody.

You've already made a connection.

I mean, otherwise, you know, that business card goes into trash, just like resumes do.

So I, I do think that there has to be a, a record, right?

That kind of gives you a, Hey, here's who I am, here's, you know, kind of where I live, you know, you know, at least a city, an area, whatever.

Um, but then the next steps, I, I just wonder if there's not a.

A better collection of information.

Mm-hmm.

And, and man, I, I just, it, it's hard to think past like a, a written word document to convey to somebody mm-hmm.

What you have done and what you're capable of doing.

Mm-hmm.

Your thoughts on LinkedIn

real quick before you go on that, but Uhhuh, does somebody writing that down make it true though?

No,

no.

I mean, I, I think,

uh, right, it becomes a sales pitch at some point where you're incentivized to put small font at the bottom and, and white.

Oh, and, and

I, I assume, um, and actually I, like I have gone to a resume writer and you basically put in some of your accomplishments, put in the job you're

Yeah.

And you know, I mean, it, and it's, it's a lot of fluff.

Yeah.

There's no

doubt about it.

Is it a fake it until you make it kind of thing?

No, I don't think it's, I don't think it's quite that bad getting a little bit off track of what, what, what is a good alternative.

But you know, when you just think, I mean, there's so many applicants.

Mm-hmm.

And.

And then heck anymore.

You know, at, at, and I know this isn't exactly the experience you're having right now, but then there's also

So, you know, you, you start with a hundred.

Mm-hmm.

Hey, you wanna talk to these a hundred?

You call a hundred only 50.

Return the call.

You know, you, you see where I'm going with that?

Yeah.

Just, you know, it, it's much harder to reduce the number, right?

I mean, you've, you've just gotta kind of take everyone that you.

You think even might be a

fit because you can't talk to everybody.

That's, that's for sure.

Yeah.

No, I mean,

it, it's almost, I wonder if it wouldn't be, There's something out there to, and this again, is kind of off the topic of what's different, but

You know, it's like, okay, you did not pass the screening.

Then I can like, uh, move on.

Or I could like, call someone or like, you know, try like, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

But it's just like you just.

Put it out there, and then nothing happens.

Yeah.

You're just like, I'm gonna wait.

Right.

And I

guarantee you that that feedback loop will never exist because that gives others like, uh, a chance to game the system.

Yeah.

That's, yeah.

I think gaming the system's gonna happen regardless though, right?

Yeah,

absolutely.

But, but I, I, I think that's a good or bad.

That's the perception.

If you were to actually.

Almost like you have to if you're gonna even stand a chance.

Right, right.

Like approaching it with sincerity, which is what I've been trying to do.

Right.

And like tailoring each one.

Yeah.

Um, I'm trying to make sure like if a get get to someone who is gonna read it, they're gonna be like, cool, this person can do

But yeah.

If it becomes this thing of like, can you.

Can you play the game better than everyone else?

Like, yeah.

How's that going?

Resume gonna read.

At the end of the day, when a human puts their eyes on it,

I think of if you want to hire somebody, it, ideally, it would be cool to, to work with them first, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I know that's unrealistic.

However, you know, the, the resume is just like kind of a spray and pray kind of mechanism.

And, you know, I, I'm sure everybody's gonna tell you, your network is probably the number one place where you're gonna land the next job.

So the relationship is pretty important.

Mm-hmm.

So is there, is there a fix in that sense where you don't, well, you don't need the resume cuz you've already have people that know who you are.

Mm-hmm.

Well say more, I guess.

Gimme your thoughts around what you, how, how would you set that up in a way for you could.

For you to like work with a potential applicant

or, I think my suggestion is, is to more lean in on the relationship side.

Okay.

So somebody out there, all of a sudden's looking for an engineering manager and they're like, ah, Brett's an engineering manager.

I can, if he's not available, he probably knows or knows how to help me find one.

Right.

But, but really over-indexing on a, some sort of system that.

That scales that for the individual, because that's the, the hard part right now.

Mm-hmm.

Networking is hard.

It's time consuming.

Mm-hmm.

So how can you do that?

And I think network obvious is a social, I mean, LinkedIn is a social network.

Is is leaning that way, but it still doesn't feel like it quite delivers.

I don't think so.

And, and yeah.

I see what you're saying about the network and who you know and, and.

Even with me personally, like I've had, I've had friends, right?

Who, you know, I don't even, I don't know if we're actually LinkedIn connected, but you know, they're people from college, you know, are, you know, that I

So I think that network aspect is really important and more fruitful for like getting into the next spot.

Again, in my experience, the thing that I think bugs me, kind of nagged me thinking about.

The, it's who you know, not what you know is the opportunity for propagating biases.

Sure.

Right.

And not bringing in candidates of, you know, backgrounds and demographics that have been historically marginalized and don't have those opportunities, which

So like that's one thing that sticks out and I, I have to believe that there's a happy middle between.

Okay, we, if we want to bring in someone, we need to like review the pool of candidates in an isolation as one end of the spectrum.

The other being, who do I know that would be good for this?

I'm just gonna call my friends and family and see who wants this job and bring them in and go through all of the posting and sharing.

Cuz you have to, right?

There's legal, you know, Hoops you've gotta jump through, but in reality, you know who you're gonna hire, right?

So this is just for saving phase.

Um, and I gotta think there's something in between that I, I don't know if I've seen or experienced and would love to see

I, I don't think there is, I don't think there's a, and, and I, I would equate this, I think the, the closest thing I can.

Equate this to as dating, and when you think about where it's been and and how you did it.

Right.

Go back 50 years ago

mm-hmm.

Right before

you know, you, you were, you, you were very limited to, to who you knew.

Mm-hmm.

And, and your groups, right.

Your social, your school work, whatever.

Right?

Yep.

I mean, that was.

That was all you had.

And then through, you know, then they then like into the, the eighties a little bit, right?

There was like some, some dating sites, right.

But, but very physical, right?

Like, not online, but like, you know, mailing in a tape or, you know, filling out like a, an ad or something, like in a newspaper type of situation.

And now, you know, you've gone into, you know, Online dating the eHarmony and I, I, I don't even know, I, I

And then, you know, then coming all full circle to like a, um, a Tinder and, and if there's other, you know, sites that, that are similar to that.

So I.

I think, but, but the end result is still the same.

Kept pushing gaming the system.

Yes.

Right.

But the end result is still the same.

Like there is no good way other than to show up and try.

There might be a better alternative to the resume as we know it, but at the end of the day, there still has to be a process.

Mm-hmm.

Of.

How do you get in front of that person?

Mm-hmm.

You know, whether virtual or in person have a conversation, and even if it's five minutes long, see if there's a reason to move forward.

Applicant number one?

Yes.

What's your favorite breakfast and why?

Breakfast burrito cuz it's handheld and I need something when I'm on the go.

Oh,

I like, this is ready.

This is a good one.

I love that analogy.

And I mean, catfishing, I, I was, you know, joking, but that's for real.

What we're dealing with

also.

Yeah.

Well that's, and that's dating Right.

Dates one through three.

They are seeing the very best of you.

Yeah.

Right.

And then maybe after that, you know, you start showing more, whatever.

Right.

That's true.

It's like, if I could just get my foot in the door, she would like me.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

It's kind of funny, but, you know, like taking that, like with, with Jo, you know, Taylor, you're looking at jobs.

I mean, I'm, I'm, you know, big companies would have.

Probably much more structured HR departments and, and, um, you know, recruiters that have a very.

Dialed in system, I've gotta stand out even more.

Mm-hmm.

Where then, you know, same thing if you had a company that has five employees mm-hmm.

I mean, you might be sending your, you know, a note straight to the ceo, I don't wanna work for you and here's why.

And, and, and there's a good chance he even might solve a recruiter, but it might be something that they've kind of like a, like indeed or something.

Right.

That they're, they're just asking 'em to help him get him more resumes, but if you got it straight to him, so it's a, yeah.

No, I, you, you bring up a solid point and I think something that in, again, in the midst of what I'm doing right now, but also

hitting people up, like cold calls and cold emails, cold notes, whatever you wanna call them, uh, like actually kind of work if

Like, I've been able to get interviews, I've been like, hey, I don't know you and not in these words exactly.

Right.

But, you know, kind of reach out to them.

Be like, I see this position For a company you work for in your department, would you be open to like a

Like, like to learn about it.

You know, I think I might, I'm interested but want 'em, see if I'm a good fit and that, that connection piece has just taken me so much farther than.

Let me make this resume perfect and get it in the system and then hope.

Yeah.

Something comes back and, and, and again, my approach has typically been to do like both.

Like if I can submit the good resume, but then also hit someone up and, and get their contact.

Mm-hmm.

Like, that's, that's the ideal.

But a, again, the thing that sets it out is the contact.

It's not the resume.

It's not like they saw this person like come through and then they were like, oh, now this person's talking to me.

I'm gonna, I'm going to give them the time of day.

It's like someone just engaged with me and.

Oh, did you submit your resume yet?

Okay, cool.

Like, does,

does that push bias too though, and, and more from a introvert extrovert perspective?

I think it does.

Which is, again, it's, it's hard, right?

I, I don't think there's an easy fix to this because the pe people who are going to reach out are ones who like, feel.

Confident, comfortable assured, who would maybe be concerned about reaching out to someone and maybe inconveniencing them?

Yeah.

Or thinking that, oh, they probably get a million of these a day.

I've gotta find a different way to stand out.

So it's, the calculus is different for everyone, I would assume.

Which, yeah.

Doesn't fix the problem.

Right.

But not sure how to go about it otherwise.

Do you think a part of this problem is, has anything to do with.

The almost secretive nature of the way we search for jobs.

You know, I, I've had very few people that I've reported to that I could actually talk to about.

I'm unhappy.

I don't see what I'm getting here.

I think I'm gonna actually go look elsewhere.

I don't know that I've.

Trusted anybody to that level.

Whereas if you had that level, like just pretend we all had that relationship at a company, we could do that.

Would it be much easier to go out there and actually, all right now, now I have some help and I can do this in a very open fashion.

Let other people advocate for me too, if I'm an introvert.

Thoughts about

that?

I have two thoughts.

One is I think it would be cool and would be great to have support like that and and safety like that.

To be in a position and have people you work with or, uh, leaders, mentors, whomever, help, like, just be able

The other thought I'm having, I'm trying to flip myself in the position right, as being the person who has direct reports.

And having a direct report come to me and be like, I'm not happy here.

I think I'm gonna start looking to see what else is out there that fits me to me, that would signal, okay, yeah, we're, we're failing this employee

Right.

And I think I would feel urgency to address that root cause.

You know what I mean?

Like, I like, hey, You're a good, valuable employee.

I like you.

I want you to stay, I want you to feel fulfilled.

So let me fix what's going wrong at the company cuz I can, I probably have a better chance.

Well, I don't know.

Maybe I, I have a better chance of fixing that as opposed to helping that person land somewhere else.

That's fulfilling.

But I don't know.

I think to me, and Brett, I want to hear your take on this.

As someone who does have direct reports, I would feel crap.

Let's fix.

What's going wrong?

Or find something else, maybe even internally, that, that keeps you whole and makes you feel fulfilled and, and attack the problem that way.

Um, I don't know.

What are your thoughts?

I,

I would totally do this as a boss.

If somebody came to me and enough and trusted me in that sense, and I, I would, I, I think where, where this gets a little tricky is I,

With people that report to me so, They might be more happy than somebody that has a different boss who they don't trust, who can't have that conversation.

So it's, it's a bit of a paradox and I, I don't know how to get past that.

There's also the business case mm-hmm.

That you, you called out, right?

Mm-hmm.

If we just can't do it for you, I mean, I think you're much better off helping that person find what makes them happy and helps them grow.

And you can leverage them again.

Mm-hmm.

Um, at another point if you want to, or, or at least they're in your network and probably are thankful

for that.

Yeah.

I, I, I want to get Ben's take my, my one thought to interject is I feel like you almost need, like an entire system slash society built around that.

To make, make it successful.

Cuz in this individual corporate setting, you can have that through an entire organization.

And unless you've got partners to help make that model feasible and workable, where the company's not seeing turnover at ridiculous rates.

Cuz folks will, oh, okay, well they're gonna support me.

Get a new job.

I don't like this, I'm just gonna bounce to the next thing.

You know, you have to have kind of a sy like a flow in and out that keeps everything kind of staple and.

Copacetic, if you will.

So I, I think you need like a, it's, it's like a huge shift in my mind.

Yeah.

Like with a lot of things.

Well, I think you either have that culture or you don't, right?

Yeah.

So like, if you have a learning culture, I would imagine if you really made that successful for a business, you would have

Mm-hmm.

Um, where if you didn't have that culture, you probably do have a lot more churn and trust at some levels.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Ben, what you

got?

Well, I'm listening to what you guys are saying, and I think that that's nice.

Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for not zoning out.

Um, but, uh, no, I, I would say that none of us are that honest when it cut, like, like, so two things, right?

Like, so when you're talking about like, being honest with your, um, your boss or, you know, e either E either up or down, right?

I mean, honest or open.

I would say honest.

Yeah.

And, and the problem is, is that, and I, I've said this before, but you know, we, we say I'm fine.

Yeah.

How are you?

Oh, I'm fine.

Tey.

We're having our one-on-one today.

How are things going?

How's your job going?

Oh, it's fine.

We've got a culture of not telling the truth.

Yeah.

And, and it's getting worse.

Not being

vo

vulnerable.

Yeah.

Well, not, and, and, and it's getting worse, you know, with, with social media.

The hashtag Living My Best Life you take.

These 20 pictures of the greatest moments of your life for the year.

And that's what goes on social media.

Therefore, you know, resumes and hiring are all very similar to that.

Right.

I mean, it, it all feeds into that.

Mm-hmm.

And, and so I guess what, you know, I, uh, two things is I'm, I'm thinking that, you know, that that's a, that's a problem, like when you're talking

Whose problem is that?

Just, um, I, well, I think it's a.

It's everyone's problem.

It's a cultural problem.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, if, if the employer isn't honest and, and doesn't give honest feedback, then that makes it harder for the employee to.

Change, improve, grow, whatever, and vice versa, right?

I mean, if the employee is, um, not being honest and talking about leaving or something, then, then at the same time, the employee error

You know, at least acknowledge it.

Hey, I, you know, and, and some of it might be a system, right?

I mean, it's, it's hard.

I mean, hey, I.

I get that you don't like smelling like oil all day, but you're a fry cook.

So I mean, there, you know, we, we, we can try and move you, you know, but, but this, this position only affords that opportunity.

Right.

So I, I think there could be, so it hurts everybody there, but to, but to come back to, and bring it full circle to like the,

I don't know that.

Fair plays into it.

Yeah.

You talked about this, like, you know, like Taylor reaching out individually and making that connection.

If the introvert can't do that, then they need to find their own way to go make a connection with somebody and do something and,

Yeah.

I, I don't, I don't want to be fair.

I, I want to put myself forward first and I want to win.

Yeah.

And, and I, and then I would equate that too to dating.

Right.

You know, we're, we're all with somebody else.

I mean, I, I don't want, well, here, give this person a fair shot.

Heck no.

I'm, I'm the guy.

I, I'm, I'm standing here.

It's my job, it's my wife.

You know, it's, it's that, so, I'm What's going on

in your personal life right now?

No, but I, I, I guess I'm just saying like, I, I just think about and, and I think that's part of it.

Like there, there is a, um, and I don't know a better word to say, but other than just diversity, right?

I mean, I believe that there is a big, that's a big component of having a well-rounded organization, but I, I

Yeah.

And, and if you, You can't do it this way, then you gotta find a way that will work for you.

Yeah.

So that's operating in the current system, right?

Yeah.

What we're talking about is, is there a system that supports this a little bit better?

Yeah.

I don't know what the answer is, but man, I mean, there is, and, and, and it's gotta be a, a combination.

Of a, a LinkedIn work network scenario as, as you mentioned, right.

You know, like, like how, how do you network and get and get those opportunities from your network?

Um, there has to be also a little bit of a component because people do go out there to either third party si like an

For, uh, resumes.

So the hard part is, is you don't want to be missed by those opportunities, right?

So you a little bit after to play that game.

I think what a great opportunity to come up with something different.

Um, and I, I, I've got a, you know, I, I brought up these dating analogies.

I love analogies, but like, like I, I thought of one that, that really cracked me up.

Um, This, you know, this like, like the resume reminds me a little bit like Microsoft Word, and I bet you guys have maybe seen memes or something about

Yeah.

And it has a ton of limitations, but at the end of the day, um, it is, you know, bar none, the de facto word processing tool.

Out there in the world.

Mm-hmm.

And that's what the resume is.

And I think it's begging to have somebody change it or, or beat it or do something different.

And the problem is, is all that we've seen are copycat clones.

Mm-hmm.

You know, goo Google Docs and Apple, you know, I mean, heck App Apple.

Could Apple sit up?

You're right.

Microsoft, we.

We can't beat you.

We'll just bring word and bring all that onto our platform.

And I feel like the resume might be a little bit of that same way.

Like I think it's begging to have somebody innovative change it.

Mm-hmm.

I just, I'm, I, I don't know what it is and I'm, and, and I can't even, every time I start thinking about something, it gets to job specific.

Let me, let me break this down.

Yeah, super simply and see what you guys think, because I had a similar experience.

Wasn't quite the same, but what, what if the hiring process said, here's your jd.

Here's four questions.

Answer these four questions.

I like that.

And, and that, that was it.

Yeah.

Like do you think you could weed people out at scale and find people by asking like a.

Very small amount of questions, and it could be 250 character answers, right?

Like you have to be pretty concise when you answer these to make it mm-hmm.

Feasible.

But would that work?

I think it would be an effective approach.

I think the question that comes up immediately is, okay, how do you screen now?

Right?

If you're gonna go through screening process, is a person, is a hiring manager, gonna read the responses to all the

Um, are you gonna have a tool, say there has to be certain keywords or mentions of yada, yada, yada?

So I, I think that, I like the idea from the premise of you were doing something that is really specific and tailored to the job needs.

And you're engaging, there's actually a different form of engagement with the applicant to, to, you know, this is how I could help or do this.

Right.

Um, and lemme lemme throw

this out to you.

Yeah.

If you software engineer, let's just take a position that I would hire for.

Yeah.

So I'm hiring for senior software engineer.

Yeah.

Um, you know, on the resume it says, I built these systems, I, I maintained these systems, I upgraded this, I saved the company X, Y, Z.

My next step is immediately gonna be trying to make sure that that's all fact.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And it would be much easier for me to say, can you write code and Python?

Mm-hmm.

And I will test you in this, that that is coming.

Yeah.

So,

you know, on the questions though, that isn't that pretty rife for, uh, gaming as well in terms of like, We've got chat chip PT now.

Yep.

Right.

So you could answer those questions in a way that really stands out and you'll still like your, to your point,

Is those, are those four questions more effective than if you just, you know, didn't, if you didn't take the time to read all the answers right,

It gives you an opportunity to have.

Less time consuming next steps.

Mm-hmm.

If you answered these four questions and you said, yes, I can write Python and my job as the next screen is to validate those

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sometimes, like, sometimes I'm like, I'll go through a 45 minute phone screen, which is after my talent

Mm-hmm.

We're already an hour and a half in.

Just to get one person to like a, a panel stage for interviews.

Yeah.

We could have said, Hey, I can get one of my senior software engineers say, go make sure this guy knows this stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

And then we can bring him in for a more detailed check.

But that feels faster in a better use of like people's times.

And I don't know if that would work across multiple places like fried Cooks or sales

or, I, I think that sounds like a step two though.

Because you still have to get to that.

I, I like the four questions, and, and I, I do think that's good.

But you, you still have to get to, cuz cuz at the end of the day, if, if you put those four questions, like on your, your hiring,

It, it's no different than a resume, right?

Somebody's gonna, somebody's have to go in.

And, and this is kind of what, you know, they're gonna have to put their name in, they have to put their email, all that stuff.

Yeah.

And then they're gonna answer these questions and then, and then now you have to start sifting through who that is.

Yeah.

So I'm, I'm just saying, I, I'm not trying to butter burst your bubble.

I, I just feel like it, that the four questions thing is a step two, not a step one.

Yeah.

I'd be curious to see.

I like, I'm up for any like different approach, but I think.

My gut tells me it would probably go toward, you probably get similar output results.

Now, one thing I did like that you said just now, Brett, is, was essentially empowering the rest of your team and organization to help bring people on.

And maybe this is not the case everywhere, but my experience is you have.

Few people make decisions and push candidates and progress into next stages, right?

Like very, they're very kinda like limited, right?

Okay, yeah, I like this person, I want them to meet this person.

And then you've got, you know, I don't know, two or three people making a call on the next employee.

And it's really long in terms of the process.

So I like, I like the idea as just, hey, you know, you're an ic.

You've been here for six months, would you interview this person and give us your thoughts and either structure that interview for them

what, as a team, you can come together and decide on a candidate as opposed to being like, sometimes it feels like it's overly rigorous.

Yeah, sometimes it's like, Interviews.

I mean, even if you get to the point where you're interviewing.

People get nervous, you want to answer it perfectly.

And again, maybe this is my experience, you can get in your head sometimes, right?

And you're like, I don't know if I'm answering this quite right.

Or you're trying to, you know, convey something that you know isn't landing well.

If that's my one and only shot, or if I only get a couple goes at this, I think I would prefer to talk to more people if it gives

Right.

You know?

So I think empowering others to contribute is certainly a good call.

Regardless of how you screen or look at it.

Yeah.

What I, I wanna rewind just a little bit.

What do you mean by step two?

Like what is missing for that to be a step one?

I

feel that answering four questions, while it's not as canned as a resume is.

Very similar to just putting your name, like I said, name, address, all the stuff.

All right, here's, here's what job I'm going for, right?

I mean, cuz you'd have to have questions, at least a little bit.

Job dependent.

So here's what job I'm going for and here's my four questions.

I'm gonna type it out and, and, and, you know, here, here, here goes.

I'm gonna regurgitate my, my 250 words per, per question.

Here's my thousand words.

On why I'm a good fit for this job.

I guess at the same time, not all changes are monumental.

Totally.

You know, 180 degrees right.

Disruptive risk.

Yeah.

It, it doesn't have to be a, a, a, like, I, you know, it doesn't have to be a, a complete difference.

It can be similar.

So now that you're questioning me and I'm thinking harder about it, maybe it is a good step one and a, and a replacement.

Right?

I mean, if you had a.

Because we're, we're in agreement that the resume is strictly the tool is the key to the door.

Yeah.

Or right.

Well, it's, it's one of two things actually.

It's, it's either, it's either your business card.

Yeah.

Hey, hey, I've got a guy.

Cool.

Send me his resume.

Right?

Yeah.

Hey, I've, Hey, I need a painter.

Cool.

Send me his phone number.

I mean, it's, it's no different than that, that, or, or it's some arbitrary key to the door that somebody.

Flags it and you're, you're lucky enough to make it through three people looking at

resumes like the car dealership.

Yeah.

Where they send you the three keys, come to the lott and try these

keys.

Yeah.

And you, and you get through win through.

Yeah.

You get through.

So damn it.

I never win.

I guess I was thinking that maybe the, the using the four questions would not be different enough.

I don't know if that's the right, yeah.

You know, if, if that's not a big enough difference from the resume.

However, um, at the same time, if you use that as a step one, like what a great.

Thoughtful way to say, Hey, here's, here's four questions.

You know, and you have maybe, you know, and kind of go through the, the list, like maybe two are, have, have more

Like, hey, here, here is a, here's a task.

How, how do you answer that question here?

Here's a job function.

And then maybe, you know, the next two would be about personality and or.

You know, how, how you would maybe fit in with the, the culture and the direction, whatever of the company.

So like that's

exactly where my mind was, was, you know, we just said four questions, but what are the four questions?

What are you trying to discover by asking?

What set of questions?

Right.

What were you, what were your, what were your thoughts

specifically about that question?

Yeah, so I mean, for me, one, like the, the language for, for coding for a software engineer would be one.

Right?

So something like

technical capabilities.

You have the

technical chops.

Why, maybe give me an example of Okay.

Of something you've done.

Okay.

Which then saves you from, you know, reaching through there.

How, how many years of experience, let's say I'm hiring for a manager, how many, how many years of experience do you have managing

Something, but just a little more information to get to know the person.

Like from a cultural perspective, for sure.

More cultural questions.

It could be, you know, what's your in, in my industry, product management versus engineering.

Mm-hmm.

It's either very contentious or very collaborative.

Mm-hmm.

So how do you see yourself working with product?

Mm-hmm.

Like what is your role?

What is their role?

Mm-hmm.

You know, questions like that in instead of trying to actually decipher that from a resume, just ask the question.

Yeah.

And, and those are the questions that, that I think hiring managers are holding that you can't put in a job description.

Yeah.

But that's, that's how you filter jobs when you get the resume, which have already gone through the filter, that might be ineffective from.

From ai, right?

Mm-hmm.

So what, what, the problem I'm really solving is how can a connection be made more effectively?

Where you're not filtering out too many people at the top when you get this, this application of sorts, whatever it is, that you can have your

Mm-hmm.

You know, I, I like that and I appreciate that, and something that I would fold into.

Like I, I think would be important to fold into, and I'm mixed on this, but what I would fold into it is a question about why

Yeah.

And I think I actually happened to meet with a resume, uh, application I filled in, uh, just this past week and.

I thought at first, they literally asked me, why do you want to join this company?

And my initial, actually that's a weird and annoying question that I now have to answer in addition to like, right, the resume

I think that's a great opportunity.

But, but in, and just to call this out real quick, you're guessing at what you want somebody.

Interpret.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

So as I started to write and you know, like kind of fill in the application, I thought, oh no, this is actually a really good question, you know, is

And even if not well enough, like you can, like they've, you're not gonna hire someone that's completely outta whack with what you need for the business.

So how do you, how do you really find the person that stands out?

The shine in my dating profile, Ben, like, how do I really, you know, hey, I'm the one.

Um, is, is like giving and, and the way I ultimately interpreted it, it gave me a chance to express my passion about, hey, like it was a role that was based

I'm like, that's what I care about and I want to do that with an organization that holds those values that, you know, has a vision that's similar to.

You know what I believe we need, you know, in the business community, um, it aligns with my skillset.

Like all these things that kind of just gave me a chance to just write out, write out the gate, be like, Hey, the, like this is why, this is why.

Yeah.

And you can read my resume and my cover letter and all that and hopefully we get a chance to talk.

But at, at the very, at the get out, like.

You, you know what I care about and if that, that matches what, what y'all like, and if you school, then like, yeah, we can go from there and, and

guess what?

You also know what they care about.

That's true.

That's true.

And so it's like, thank you for asking.

It's almost a more empathetic approach.

And if you were to say, uh, if it says, do not submit a resume or a cover letter, tell me why you wanna work here, why you think you're qualified.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Why we should give a shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's it.

I think that's great.

I was thinking about.

My, I had a, I had an approach kind of scoped out for this episode and I'm, I'm, I'm realizing it was essentially just a variation of the four questions,

Your name, like how do you spell that?

How do you contact me?

Your job titles like and the business, like something that's so brief and just like high level that it just gives you,

Yeah.

And then, you know, lean into like the why, like gimme the vision and values you have as an individual for being a part of an organization.

Yeah.

And, and let that be the application.

But as, as I'm thinking about it and we're talking about it, it's just the four questions.

Yeah.

Is why do you want to be here?

Tell me, like, give me something that at least shows me you're qualified or able to do what we've asked in this jd, and let's go from there.

Because I,

I don't wanna look at a resume, look at all the sections with all the information, figure out the dates on there.

Add up all the years for management experience.

Yeah.

Like the ones that make that exact question stand out.

I'm like, boom, that was easy.

I'm good.

The rest, I'm like, I'm confused.

I'm done.

Yep.

Yep.

Resumes, uh, to me feel fairly outdated these days.

If you were the board of a company, is this, is this something that you would find urgent enough to, to start experimenting with?

Uh, it is, I think for my, my perspective, I, and as hard as a board member, cuz I'm going through this, you know, presently as an individual

It's.

So time consuming for both ends of this arrangement is lots of energy.

There's a better way to do this, and I would encourage us and you know, organizations out there to try something different

And I would encourage to make the starting point something that's values and vision based as opposed to capability based.

I think there's so much of people putting resumes together, being like, I can do this job.

Please believe me, I can do this job, right?

Look at how well I can do this job.

And I, and I think it misses, there's a big missed opportunity in it.

Misses, yeah.

It, I think it misses, it does.

It has a lot, but there's missed opportunity in, in engaging with a workforce that wants to do something they care about

And, and will do a good job if you just get a chance.

And I think that starts with values.

So that, that's my take.

Alright, big Ben.

I think I would, I'd love to explore the dating apps that are out there and, and see if there's any correlation

It's, yeah, I just, I definitely, I, I think there's a better way.

I, I don't know what it is.

Um,

it's a fun thought.

Yeah.

But

at the end of the day, you're kind of, you're making connections with people, right?

I mean, at the end of the, you're, Hey, this person's gonna work for you.

You guys are making a connection.

So, and there's a lot of dating.

Apparatuses, not just apps, but you know, I mean, I think there's a, I think there's even some traditional things,

right?

I like the, the dating angle.

I, I'm a really big fan of like looking at other industries for inspiration that might not be a big match.

One of the things, there was a movie called Beyond Zero that was about making a, a nylon carpet company, carbon neutral or even carbon positive.

Amazing story.

So big fan with that.

I, I would absolutely love to try something new cuz I feel like a lot of times we just end up spinning our

And I'd rather at least test it out and prove something doesn't work and have a, a chance of making it just a little bit better.