Matt Ginella is a longtime golf journalist, storyteller, and founder of Fire Pit Collective, a media company dedicated to celebrating the game, its people, and its culture. From his days at Golf Digest and Golf Channel to building one of the most authentic voices in modern golf media, Matt has been at the center of how we see and experience the game today.

The latest episode of Golf Don't Lie dives deep into the life and career of Matt Ginella, a name synonymous with golf storytelling and travel. We kick things off by reflecting on Matt's journey from his days at the Golf Channel, where he was known as the 'golf trip guy', to the founding of Fire Pit Productions—a venture that has undergone significant transformation and growth. Matt shares insights into the challenges faced during the early days of his company, particularly during the pandemic, and how he adapted to turn those challenges into opportunities. His recent acquisition by Kemper Sports marks a pivotal moment, positioning Fire Pit Productions to create compelling narratives around some of the most iconic golf courses in the country, including the likes of Gamble Sands and Stream Song. The conversation flows seamlessly as we explore the importance of storytelling in golf, the impact of community-driven golf courses, and the unique experiences that make each destination special. We also touch on Matt's personal life, highlighting the balance he strives to maintain between his passion for golf and his family commitments, especially as a father to a young son who is just beginning to discover the game. This episode is packed with rich narratives, engaging anecdotes, and valuable lessons about resilience, creativity, and the ever-evolving relationship between golf and personal growth.

Takeaways:

• The evolution of Matt Ginella's career from Golf Channel to Fire Pit Productions illustrates the importance of adaptability in the fast-paced world of media and storytelling.
• The podcast emphasizes the community aspect of golf, highlighting how places like Goat Hill Park thrive on inclusivity and the joy of playing together.
• Matt shared insights on how golf inherently teaches humility, showing that even the best players can face challenges and reminding us to remain grounded in our self-perception.
• Youth on Course is a powerful program that makes golf accessible to underprivileged kids, showcasing the impact of affordability and community support in expanding the sport's reach.

The Golf Don't Live podcast is proudly brought to you by our friends over at first form.

Different paths, different stories.

This, this, this game tells all. Golf don't lie.

What's up, guys? Welcome back to Golf Don't Lie. Justin Bryant. What's going on, brother?

Not much. We got, it's been cool. We got the, the podcast has been launched. We got some awesome guests that we've, we've, we've lined up.

And another good one today.

Absolutely. We got Matt Ginella on the line.

Kind of a. I used to think of Matt as like the golf trip guy because he had the coolest job ever with the Golf Channel. Just traveling to awesome places. Go play the golf course, go to the bar, hang out and come report back. And it was like every, every golfer's dream.

But catching up with him today about, you know, just what, how, what that's evolved into, now that he's not with the Golf Channel, he's with. He's got his own company, Fire Pit Productions.

And kind of the things that they have gone through as far as a company, when he left the Golf Channel, they had some struggles there. And then now it's kind of transformed into really, kind of a storytelling company. And he is working.

Actually, his company was just bought out by or acquired by Kemper Sports. So really they're going to be doing all of the production and storytelling around a lot of their different properties, which is really cool.

That's awesome. Yeah. Kemper's all over the place. I'm sure he's going to be. He's going to be busy.

Oh, yeah, yeah, he was. What they just do like Gamble Sands and they're doing a big one on Stream Song. I believe he said that Kemper Sports bought Stream Song.

So they don't just manage the property. I think they now bought it. So he's got a big thing coming out on that, which sounds like it's going to be awesome.

Gamble Sands, too, is one that I wasn't that familiar with. And actually yesterday it came up and that place looks really cool. I guess they got a couple courses up there and that's a.

There's so many cool, like golf destinations that are popping up and we need to make a golf don't lie trip. Check out these spots.

I agree. When's the last guy's golf trip and where was it that you have gone?

It's a great, great question.

I know it's been a while for you because you don't play a ton of recreational golf.

I, I went to Florida Maybe like two years ago at the park down in, in Palm Beach. And that was really fun, really cool spot.

We played like the Palm beach par three, which is 18 holes on the, on the ocean kind of intercoastal, which is just a, a really, really cool par three course. You know, you have ones from 200 to 60 or 70 yards and it's pretty windy typically there, so those are fun. One of my buddies played without a shirt.

Not sure if that's allowed out there, but we did it. And then the park is a really cool property that I'm sure people have heard of, but it used to be.

I had played a tournament on the old course, which I think was like West Palm Beach Golf course. And now the park has really cool driving range. It's got a short course that is free I think, if you're under 18.

So like I've taken my boys out when we've been out there and it's nine holes. The last hole you have to use your putter. It's like a 70 yard putt. I think they have a putting course and then the 18 hole course is, is really good.

So that's like a, that's a cool spot. And then they got a great place to kind of hang out, have lunch, have some drinks.

There's music going on with the putting course, which is free, so really cool public spot there. And so that, that was a fun trip. That was just, just about, you know, two days. It was quick, but we got a lot of golf in and had a lot of fun.

Have, have you been to any of the other, like bigger ones? Have you been to Bandon? Have you been to Stream Song? Have you been to any of those?

I haven't. I mean, Bandon's on the top of the list. I think that's like over a year and a half.

Wait, Ironically, my wife, you know, Kelly, who you know well, was like, yeah, you should go to Bandon. And like whatever she said. And I was like, oh buddy, that's like a year and a half.

That's so cute.

Yeah, like, I appreciate it. I'm sure she knew that I couldn't pull it off that quick and so that's why she offered. But yeah, I mean, Bannon's on the list. Sand Valley.

I mean Stream Song.

There's.

There's so much Pinehurst I've still never done, which is, I feel like a crime because I was in North Carolina for college. But yeah, there's a bunch that are on the list. It just hasn't. Hasn't happened yet, unfortunately. What's your kind of favorite? I mean, Sweden's.

I know you've done. That one's on my list. I still want to see that.

Yeah, I haven't been to any of the big places either, but we've done a couple of cool things with. With 18 strong. We did Nashville twice. We went down to the Hermitage and played a couple of those. Played their two courses. We actually.

It was funny because the second time we went, we knew that daylight was going to be an issue. And the guys at the Hermitage probably don't love hearing this, but the second time we went, we brought glow in the dark golf balls.

So when we were on the. I think it was the generals, the second 18 that night as. As it was getting dark and.

And we were supposed to come in, we got out the old glow in the dark golf balls and played like another two or three holes and then got yelled at when we got into the clubhouse. But it was, it was awesome. Great place. We loved those courses. And then we played a muni course there. I can't remember the name of it.

Like the Thursday before we played our other rounds and then we just did a day trip down to Dalhousie last year. So you were just talking about Dalhousie last episode. And then we're going to Macklemore in October this year, which we.

We need to get you on these trips. I know, I know your schedule is.

Pretty tight, but still kills.

But yeah, the McLemore looks amazing and I can't wait to go. And then I'm going to. You ever heard a place in Oklahoma called Shangri La?

I have not. That's a new one.

Yeah, we're going there for the. Our Rockhurst. We do a Rockhurst University. We call it the Troost Rider Cup. Troost is a street that runs along Rockhurst University.

And we've got, I think 24 guys from my college, a bunch of college buddies, and then other random friends that have kind of made their way in. So we're doing a Ryder cup in September, just a few weeks. And it's supposed to be awesome. 27 holes.

And then they've got an 18 hole par three course that's supposed to be phenomenal, the public courses, but they're supposed to be some of the best in Oklahoma.

I love, I love a par three course. I think they're so underrated. They're so fun and they're like, good, good practice for your game. All right, so you got your Ryder cup coming up.

Are You. Are you going in with the mentality of like, hey, I'm just gonna have fun? Are you trying to prepare your game so you're ready to win some points?

No, I'm looking to play. I'm looking to get points this year. We came out.

I think I got two and a half points out of three available last year, and I'm looking to get all three this year, so I'm looking to sharpen things up. The biggest thing, as we've talked about, is getting the driver to where I'm super confident that that's the club to use off the tee.

And then, you know, obviously everything else needs a little work. I'm going to be working on some putting in short game. But. But the driver is.

Driver sets your game up.

Yeah, the driver sets up my game. You know what's funny is I watched a lot of videos of your golf swing from our loop de loo.

I've been secretly kind of watching your golf swing and watching the video that you took of my golf swing, and I'm like, oh, oh, I saw the big flaw. I see a big flaw. And so I've been secretly working on a few. A little move.

I see the left leg breaking down a little bit, kind of, you know, kind of sliding into that impact position as opposed to posting up, so you can. You can expect some changes.

Okay, good. Well, keep. Keep us updated. It's the video.

You know, video in your swing is like, it's like a blessing, but it's like, you know, you open yourself up to looking and finding issues.

I literally felt. I literally found myself laying in bed that night, like, oh, that was so gross looking. It's just funny.

Like, you just start nitpicking the little things.

Oh, yeah.

But. But it actually was very helpful to see why there can be so much inconsistency in my swing with me moving laterally that much.

Yeah, you know, there's. There's bound to be not great contact made on. On occasion.

I've probably brought this up to you.

I think just such an underrated thing when people are trying to, you know, everyone wants to hit the ball better and everyone wants to hit it dead straight. But I think just like an underrated thought exercise is what shot shape do I want to hit.

So, like, really first establishing, do I want to draw it, do I want to fade it? And then working your way from there, because oftentimes, you know, you know, you're going to swing slightly different.

Obviously there's ways to make your swing better, but, you know, if you're trying to hit a fade and a draw, you're going to probably want to do things a little bit differently in terms of how you rotate, you know, your club path and things like that. So I just think that's always an important thing is figuring out do you want to draw or fade. And that could be preference.

It could be what's easier for you to hit as a draw or fade. Or, you know, some people are like, I just hate seeing the ball go left, so I'm going to, I want to hit it right.

So there's not a right or wrong answer. But you know, anyone listening and they want to get better, first figure out which way you want to hit it.

And you know, step one could just be going to the range and trying to hit 10 draws with your driver and 10 fades and you might notice, wow, one of those is way easier.

Or you might be somebody like Ryan, aka Dr. Slice, that just, you know, it's pretty obvious that we need to make that slice more of a cut or try to hit a draw.

So he knows how to work it though.

He does, he plays it.

But yeah, I just think that's a really underrated topic of trying to improve is you gotta, if you're gonna try to hit it straight, no one's gonna be able to hit it with no curve. So you gotta at least decide how much, you know, where do you want to curve it. Even if it's just a two yard draw or two yard cut.

I remember you telling me that one time that if, if, because you asked me like, what do you like to see?

And I'm like, I don't know, I'm just trying to hit it down the fairway, you know, like, well, if you're always trying to hit it, if you're just trying to hit it straight, then you're always kind of trying not to draw it or fade it and that you know, you're always going to go one way or the other. So that, that clicked in my head quite a bit when you said that.

It's just, yeah, I think like once I, I figured that pretty late in my career, I think too because it's just like, yeah, I just kind of want to hit it straight and if it's a two year draw or two year cut, that's fine. And obviously there's days where like I like to fade it, but there's tons of days where I'm just hitting a draw. And you. It is what it is.

But if you're working on your game, you need to work towards something.

And even talking to Buddy E the other day, he was, we were talking about the driver and I'm just like, honestly, like, you know, when you're nervous and you're trying to drive it straight, I think about shot shape. You know, I think about swinging faster.

I think it's important to swing hard when you're nervous because I think naturally athleticism is going to take over and you're not going to guide it. But you know, what shape do I want to see? Because a lot of times we're thinking, I don't want to hit it left, I don't want to hit it right.

But you know, putting a good visual of what you're trying to do and really focusing on that shot shape. And if it cuts 30 yards and ends up in the fairway or cuts 5 yards, no one cares. So. But try to execute something.

It's great advice. I love it. Maybe we should have a little question and answer for jb. You guys send your question in. We'll give you guys little tips.

I'll do my best.

There you go. Alright, my man. We have a great interview here with our great chat with Matt. Ginella, like I said, talking about him partnering up with Kemper.

A couple cool things.

He talked about his affinity for Goat Hill park, which is the course that is owned by John Ashworth and the guys out there and what John's done to that place and you know how they brought that back. We talk a little bit on architecture. He talks about Gamble, Sands and even David McClay Kidd and his relationship with him.

And shockingly, we talk about his wife is on the Real Housewives of Orange County. Did you know this?

I did not know this. This is news.

Yes. Which I've never watched that show, but we brought that up. And he has some interesting things to say about the experience there. It's pretty cool.

And then we kind of close out. He gives a great lesson learned from Willie Nelson's son that he got some words of wisdom from him, which is pretty classic.

This is going to be a good episode. He's got some great stories. I'm excited to try to listen.

Yeah, Matt's great. He's such a. Such a chill guy. So nice, so generous of his time. He has been nothing but great to us here at 18 strong and golf don't Lie.

So enjoy this episode and we will see you guys next week. Matty G. Welcome to Golf Don't Lie.

Thank you, Jeff. Always good to be with you.

That seems like it wasn't that long ago, but then it also kind of seems like it was many moons ago.

Time, for whatever reason, I think especially during, you know, on the back end of a global pandemic. And what was Covid like, for whatever reason? It's like.

It's just that time, during that time went real slow, but everything since then has just been real fast. And I can't tell you what's a. Or a month or six months ago. I just. It all is a blur to me at this point.

I feel the same. The only thing that I really noticed was how dark my beard was back then. And you look exactly the same.

Well, yeah, especially when I wear a hat. That hides the grace. That hides the grace.

So, you know, I was doing a little digging, trying to catch up with Matchinella and figure out all the things that he has going on. I know you've got so many different projects happening. What's been taking up most of your time as of late, and what cool projects are you working on?

Golf focused. Got too big, too fast, way too many people, too much overhead, not enough, you know, not enough funding to support that. Certainly not at that size.

And, you know, gave everything I had. A lot of people did the same, and we just didn't work. And it's. It's, you know, it's a massive bummer.

I had a lot of hard lessons learned, lost some friendships, and, you know, it was. It was brutal. Brutal. I, you know, I'm glad, you know, upon further review, I'm certainly happy that I tried it.

I wish I would have done it a lot differently. The hard lessons learned have now, you know, factored into what I'm doing now. Back to a production company.

About a year and a half ago, Fire Pit production, you know, Fire Pit Collective became Fire Pit Productions. I really gravitated towards where there was a business model that made sense for me and my family and.

And started building clients one at a time, you know, from youth on course to Pasa Tiempo to Golden Gate park to Gamble Sands to Crazy Mountain Ranch to Laura Loma and North Shore Club, and, and, you know, felt like, oh, wow, you know, this is what, this is what I had imagined I'd be doing when I left the Golf Channel and really excited about where I'm at and the people I'm working with and the stories I'm telling. About five weeks ago, got acquired and joined forces with Kemper Sports. As many people know, some don't know, Kemper Sports is.

Manages over 220 property, golf properties, you know, around the country, including Band and Dunes and Sand Valley. They purchased essentially the, the, the ownership of Stream Song not that long ago.

And so that, that I'm still just back from Chicago and we're still, you know, sorting through the exact, exact, you know, crux of that relationship, but it allows me to keep going, allows me to keep growing, and I'm really happy to be a part of what they do and how they do it. We're wearing their jersey. Feels really good right now.

That's awesome.

I was just down in the lake of the Ozarks here, not too far from St. Louis, and Kemper Sports just took over Porto Chima, which is a course down there that we go to pretty much every year.

And it's, it's cool to see just subtle little things changing and you just hear all the different ins and outs of, you know, what, what they do when they come in and, and how the course is already starting to improve and show, you know, some different changes there. So what does that look like with Fireprip Productions? What exactly will. Will you be doing with them?

I know you basically, you're a storyteller, right? Like you, you go and you travel to these, to these different places. And I've always said that Matt Janella has the coolest job. And I.

And the last time we chatted, you said, yes, it's very cool from the outside, but it can be kind of crazy hectic from the inside.

Well, and it's. That only has to do with the travel, right? And being away from home.

You know, it's real easy to be gone for 150 to 200 days a year when you're, when you're single. And I was really, ultimately looking back, I was married to my job, my career, my. That Travel, that pursuit of content and storytelling.

Once the first two years that, you know, when we had a little guy and you know, my wife from a previous marriage has three kids and you know, they were a bit. They've. They were and are and continue to be a big part of all of our lives and we had one together.

And so all of that travel kept going for the first two years. But once, once he got to be two, the little guy, I had to start. I started slowing down a little bit.

And, and that, that's the, the hard part is like saying goodbye to family or being away from family or missing things relating to family when they start, you know, when they start crying when they're saying goodbye to you and you're gone for upward, you know, seven day trips, 10 day trips, 14 days. That. That's brutal.

Thank God for FaceTime and you know, zooms and you know, and, and, and I can only imagine what it's like to be in the military or gone, you know. You know, I like, you know what I mean? It just greater appre.

For what people do in terms of sacrifices, you know, for us and our country and all that, you know, that, that, that just seemed to. My appreciation for all that only. Only is. Is heightened as I've started, you know, realizing that. So when I say that what. That's tough.

That's what I mean. Like, you know, and I think most people kind of feel that when they're travel for work.

Oh, for sure. You know, I'm a dad of three at my. It's hard to believe, but my oldest one is now going to be a senior in high school.

I've got a sophomore in high school and I've got a sixth grader now. And they. It all goes so fast and we hear that all the time that it goes faster than you, than you think it will.

How old is your son now and what does it look like? Like how long are you gone these days if you are going on a big trip and, and how spaced out are those?

And I'm sure that's all maybe gonna change as well.

Yeah, I mean my little guy is now 8. Who, you know, name is Bandon. So that was kind of fitting. And named my son Bandon, which now Kemper, you know, has managed for from the. So it's kind of like yeah, of course I'm.

I'm partnering and working with Kemper Sports, but I feel like I've worked with them for a long time because of covering the development of the places they manage. And so this is this is a great fit.

So we've turned what I used to call Janella's Journeys, which is my travels into the Janella's Journeys, which is my wife and my daughter plays golf and we played in the father daughter at Rasa Pennetz St Patrick's which is easily one of the greatest things I've ever been a part of in my life. Car Golf's Father daughter at Rasa Penna if you're a father and you have a daughter and your daughter has any level of interest in golf and.

And again, my daughter plays golf. She loves it, but she's not compet, you know, it's not about the competition. It's definitely about the camaraderie. I've done that twice now.

Game changer for us and our relationship and being able to be out there. And you know, she sees me in my element. I see her, hers and the daughter's network and the father's network.

And then there's the fathers and daughters are, you know, it's just a, it's a beautiful thing.

So tourism Ireland and, and being gone so 12 weeks Chicago for Kemper Sports doing a story on Canal Shores which they've really helped coordinate the resuscitation of an underachieving community asset, Gamble Sands for the opening of David Kidd's scarecrow which is second 18 whole course there. Laura Loma development in the hill country of Texas David KIDD COURSE Stream Song I'm embedded there.

So the Kemper Sports priority right now is telling the stream Song story not only the, the new course which David's building fifth, the fifth course there, but also the whole past and the history and the development of red and blue and black and the chain and, and all of the pieces that go into that destination. I, I mean positiempo. I'm continuing to stay involved in what they're doing socially.

And yeah, youth on course went to St. Andrews in July with four of their scholarship recipients who are the, the, the top gun of, of the. Their members. Right. They're 18 years old, about to go to college.

These kids have not only excelled, you know, on the course, but in school community service.

These are the, these are their, their, their best represented representations of their brand and their Story and what's possible when you impact kids through giving them access and affordability to the game of golf. These four kids went to participate in a program called New Links. They spend a week in St. Andrews.

They look at the history of the game through the lens of this town, the home of golf. They play the old course, they play the, the course down the street with hickories. They play the Eden.

They, you know, they, they, they get to the museum, they get to the RNA clubhouse that, you know, so it's really cool. They meet kids from other, you know, other parts of the world. And so I'm telling that story sort of as we speak. It's what I, what I'm working on.

Right now that's amazing. I, I know of Youth on Course. I actually did the, the hundred holes last year. We did it at a local par 3.

A good buddy of mine, Adam Betz, owns Family Golf and Learning center.

And so we did that with the Missouri Golf Metropolitan Golf association and, but I didn't really realize how big of a scope they had as far as, you know, how their reach. My son is a member. It's so cool. He gets to go play for five bucks wherever, you know, whatever courses are available.

So can you give us a little bit more about what you thon course is and does and what those scholarships even are?

Yeah, I mean, they're coming up on 20 years actually. Yeah, I mean the 20 year anniversary of Youth on Course started in Northern California Golf association and now is across the country.

And not only this country, but it's also gone to Canada and Australia.

It's very simple concept, raise money and subsidize rounds of golf for kids so that, you know, regardless of whatever the junior fee is at these different courses there the kids, the members are playing for $5 or less.

Youth on Course then comes over the top and subsidizes the difference between $5 and whatever that course would normally charge a junior to play, which is phenomenal. Right? Very simple, but so impactful when we're talking about the barriers to the game being affordability and accessibility.

That's amazing.

I mean, then they have almost 400 recipients of college scholarships through over the years. They continue to identify members that meet the criteria for a college scholarship.

So it's again, not only just, you know, interest in golf and, and good at school need, you know, need based scholarship opportunities for kids to go to scholarships. So you have Nicole Inyakoff, one example, who went on the St. Andrews trip.

Her, she's the daughter of, of immigrants who came here with, as she put it, nothing. And she lives in Northern California.

Started getting access to these golf courses at $5 or less, which, which she would have never been able to do if it wasn't through Youth On Course. She is an incredible golfer.

Starts winning at every level, including winning the Pure First Tee, the Champions Tour event in which the kids play with the Champions Tour members. She aces the 17th at Pebble Beach, Ernie Ells Eagles the 18th and her and Ernie Ells win the, the Champions Tour pure as a team.

And she has now got a scholarship to Harvard.

Whoa.

So she goes daughter immigrants golf winning, excelling, you know, but again, if you look at her grades and you look at her community service and everything she's doing to give back, you know, that's what's, that's what's possible when you talk about the stuff that Youth On Course is doing. So I love.

I was on their board for four years, came off the board in order to try and help them, you know, tell their story in a, in a more immersive and influential way. And it's, it's an honor, it's a privilege.

That's amazing.

When you do a story like, like you're doing for Stream Song, how long does that take kind of start to finish for you to go take all the footage, get all, everything that you need, package it up, edit it and then finally put out to production?

You know, like a better example would be Gamble Sands, who we've been working with for two and a half years. We got that project knowing that David Kidd was going to build out Scarecrow, the, the, the latest 18 oh course that just opened in August.

So they wanted. So we went back and we are just dropped part six of a docu series on growing Gamble.

But we go back and we tell the story of the Gebers family and the Gamble family and how they migrated to Central Washington, started, you know, farming apples, cherries, cattle, how they piece this family legacy together. You know, they're going on the seventh generation of the, of the Gebbers family and the Gamble family and they are the patriarch.

Cass Gebbers is just an incredible human being.

So we're, you know, we, we were curating that whole story in addition to documenting what David was doing with Nick Sean, his, his lead associate out there and telling that story. And we have two or three still to drop Maybe three. And it's just, it's just my dream scenario, right?

Going back, watching this, this, this destination grow, but also being able to tell the other layers to the, to the family and the, the, the, the land and, you know, the ancillary, you know, elements like apples and cherries and cattle and I got to, I got to herd a bunch of cattle with the patriarch as part of this series.

It's just, it's, you know, to me, it's the culmination of everything I've been doing for my career and putting it into play in a way that's documented development of destination from start to finish.

That's so amazing. This is why. So when I was thinking about kind of restarting up the show and decided to call it Golf Don't Lie.

I mean, you were literally at the, I think you were probably one of the first text messages I sent because everything that you've done in, in the world of golf, like, just epitomizes exactly what I want this show to be about. You know, Golf Don't Lie is about, you know, how golf, our golf and our lives are just kind of intertwined, right?

And there's so many different stories to tell. There's so many lessons that we learn.

And I'm like, man, Matt, Matt's career just kind of sums up everything that you do, really kind of weaves all of that together.

And that's kind of what I've loved so much about watching your stuff and just the trips that you, that you've gone on and, and have quite frankly been very jealous of a lot of the trips that you've been on. I mean, where is.

You're not alone. You're not alone. Absolutely gotten that feedback a lot.

Where is Machinella if he doesn't get involved in golf?

It was the director of photography and my uncle were friends and I had carried cameras in college and I was Wanting to be the play by play announcer for the San Diego Padres. That was my dream scenario. That was what I was going to do. And I had called some games and spent several years in college as a radio announcer.

And so it was that sliding doors, momentum as an intern, non paid intern at Sports Illustrated. Would I get a job there or what? Or what, what else would I, you know, where was I going to go?

And I was in the process of applying to Penn State's agronomy school. I had received all the applications, I was going to fill that out. I was going to go and try to be a superintendent.

That was, I was just as passionate about the agronomy side of the game as I was sort of the storytelling side of the game. Of the game. And I got a full time job at Sports Illustrated right before I sent my packet of, of stuff in.

And I was like, well, you know that, that will always be there for me. Let me see what's going on here at Sports Illustrated.

So, and I, and, and then Sports Illustrated led to applying it for a journalism degree, master's at Columbia, which led to ultimately being able to write at Golf Digest, which led to the opportunity to be a part of Private Golf Channel, which for me was the opportunity to launch my production company.

You know, so it was this progressive thing and I, but, and I'm as you know, and I think anybody who's ever followed me, I have a huge soft spot, soft spot in my heart for superintendents. The agronomy side of the game. And, and that selfless, you know, dedicated, tireless hero, you know, of the, of the game.

And it never ceases to amaze me. Right. They're pretty much almost all cut from the same cloth. Just the hardest working, a humble, quiet, soft spoke, you know.

You know, and I'll blankly generalize and I'm sure they're, they're, they're exceptions to this rule, but I just, you can't give them enough credit and appreciation for what they do. And I, you know, I'll always have, I'll always look at it through the lens of the agronomist.

Yeah. Many times. A very thankless job where only the faults and the bad spots are pointed out on the green. Right.

You got the green committee, you know, breathing down your neck. And actually next week I have. He's kind of considered the godfather of agronomy here in St. Louis, a guy named Roger Nall, and he's in his 80s.

But every superintendent around town looks up to Roger like he is, you know, the, the Dalai Lama. So I'm super, super excited to talk to him. Is it still kind of on your list when you, quote, unquote, retire to just mow grass at a golf course?

No doubt about it.

I've said it many times that there will be a day where I go and apply to, you know, wherever I'm going to settle or live or, you know, I'll go to the local course and just say, what can I do to help? And, you know, and I probably have to start, you know, taking out the trash, which, you know, that's. You gotta. You gotta start somewhere.

But if I can end up on a. On a.

On a mower and I'm, you know, cutting down the middle of a fairway or more importantly, sort of mowing the greens, that to me is, you know, striping stripe and a fairway or mowing greens to me is like my happy place.

Love it. So tell me a little bit about young Bandon. I assume he's probably in the game of golf. What does that look like?

You guys going out, hanging out, the rest of the. The family? I mean, is everybody a golfer? Do you guys spend some time out there? And what's that look like?

So Bandon is the greatest gift I can give to him is two parts, right? A. Just an understanding of what golf is. Right.

I told my wife right from the beginning, I'm not going to force him to play any sport except I'm going to force him to play golf. Which sounds. That sounds ridiculous. But when I say force him to play, it means that bring him around. You know, he's growing.

So the second part of the gift that I'm going to give him is growing up at Goat Hill park, right? Oceanside, California. John Ashworth's hub of greatness and goodness in this community. He's resuscitated this. This.

This facility, and it's thriving and surviving. And it's, you know, Bandon walks up and he's like the little mayor of the place. He knows everybody. Everybody knows him. He still, he. You.

They let him work behind the counter. He goes, dad, I got to clock in. You know, I got to clock. And I got. I got to work for an hour behind the counter. And he.

He sits there in the big chair and thinks he's, you know, he's the mayor of the place. But my point about sort of forcing him to play golf is just simply saying, understand the game, understand the. Understand the fundamentals.

If you want to go away from it after that, if you never want to play again, fine. But you're going to come back to it someday and you'll thank me for just on learning the basics. Right?

And, and you know, the, the, the culture of golf and what it, what it can provide. And it turns out he likes it, right? He likes baseball, soccer, golf. And he's just been recently saying, when are we going back to the Goat? Great.

Perfect. That's, that's my entry into. I'll probably bring him there this weekend. He wants to learn how to caddy.

I mean he, you know, in his mind he, he is a caddy already, but he want, you know, he wants to keep learning. Dad, next time I'll just caddy. I'll just, you know, I'll do whatever you need me to do.

You know, he, they've got a great junior caddy program at Goat Hill park and the kids are all really good to band and, and make him feel like he's a part of the process and holding pins and, and all that stuff. So he's, he's very, very, very much liking golf, but in a non competitive way. We don't really keep scores. We played the double par.

I let him tee off from 150 yards out. He just grips it and rips it. That the, you know, the backswing is, goes beyond whatever John Daly has ever seen.

And he loved playing golf in Ireland recently where the hard and fast ball kept rolling.

He, you know, you can see why kids like it a little over there versus what we introduce him to the game in terms of the target golf because that flat walkability roll ability that the ball has on those hard and fast fairways and greens was something that he loved. He was like, I want more of this.

Oh yeah, they can just poke it out there and watch it roll and yeah, have a little fun with it.

Yeah.

And we'll be right back. Dehydration crushes energy and focus, especially during long rounds. That's why I use First Pharm's hydration sticks.

They've got the electrolytes and minerals that you need, none of that artificial garbage and they actually taste great. I mix one into my water bottle before almost every round and it's made a legit difference on the back nine.

So if you're walking 18 or you're grinding in the gym, staying hydrated is a non negotiable. Go grab a box@firstform.com 18 strong and when you order, you're going to be entered to win our monthly giveaway.

One lucky winner is going to get a first form gift card and some 18 strong swag. Play more golf, live more life. Go to firstform.com 18strong. Hey guys, we don't run ads for golf. Don't lie.

Which means the best way to get the word out about the show is through our crew. So I have a quick favor to ask.

If you're getting value from the show, we'd greatly appreciate it if you would leave a quick review on whatever platform it is that you listen to the show. It only takes about 20 seconds and it helps more golfers find the 18 strong crew just by doing this one little thing.

You join us in the mission to help your buddies play more golf and live more life. Okay, let's get back to the show. Any, any unexpected lessons that you personally have learned from introducing the youngster into the game?

Just, I, I, from the very beginning, and my dad was the same way. You know, have fun, right?

Like the minute they're not having fun, I, I, I would leave, I would, you know, and, and for him, the introduction to golf was just being around it. At first, it wasn't even playing it, you know what I mean?

It was just being around me playing it and riding in the cart and, you know, okay, if you want to hit a putt, yeah, here's a putter, you know, and if you can get that down in three, you know, you get a skittle, you know, and, you know, just little things like that and, you know, having again, having it at Goat Hill park where of there's no, there's no their rules, which is essentially don't be an kind of, you know, like the general blanket statement of just, just be a decent human being. Doesn't. You can wear what you want to wear. As John says best. Like, I'm not. Who am I to tell you what to do in your recreational time?

Like what to wear on your recreational time? I mean, you're out here, it's a park where you happen to play golf.

That vibe and warmth and welcome is, it makes it a lot easier to bring a little guy out. 3, 4, 5, not to mention dogs. And then there's other kids. So that's a welcoming sort of vibe for a little guy.

So have other kids involved, you know, let them go at their pace. Some are going to be more competitive than others. Some are going to, you know, want to play longer than others.

Like, you know, it just, you got to feed off of them. That's a general rule, I think, with any sport, right? Let them be the driver of their interest. The minute it's a you thing versus a them Thing.

It's probably not the right thing.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Is. Is John out there? Quite a bit. I know that, you know, there's been.

There's been some changes as far as Link Soul and now he's back at working on Ashworth and I got the news that now Link Soul has been acquired and. Yeah, hard to keep up.

Yeah, I know it is hard to keep up. Even. Even for someone who's considers John like a brother, that's hard to keep up. But John is, you know, he's. He's back at Ashworth.

No more links sold. And I did just. They. They still are in the offices right below me and I did hear that they got acquired and, you know, wish them nothing but the best.

A lot of good people at part of Link Soul. Unfortunately, John isn't part of that anymore. I'm a John guy, right. So I support whatever he does.

Although Ashworth is definitely part of his life, I think it's. Can you still hear me?

Yeah.

It's still very safe to say that Goat Hill park is his passion project. It's his love. It's. You know, he's. He has. He has brought that back from death's doorstep and one piece at a time, one component at a time.

And now it's just this, this. It's this haven of amazing people and opportunities and network of goodness and, you know, I'm really lucky to call it home, honestly.

And he's there all the time. It's. He's definitely. He leads by example. He's the first one grab a shovel, a rake, he's pouring cement.

He's driving tractors, he's shaping, you know, new tees or things that. It's, It's. He's. I call him Old John Morris.

Like, you know, he's basically Old Tom was competitive golf and, and equipment and agronomy and architecture. Right. Well, John is essentially. Got his hand in all. All facets of the game through the lens of Go to Park.

It's so cool. It's so cool to watch. I haven't been out there yet. My cousin Ryan actually made it out there, I think last year and got to loop it with his son.

He said it was just exactly everything that you said, just the coolest experience. Kids everywhere, I think he said they had to take a car to second nine because it was just hillier than he expected.

My first time at Goat Hill park, this is a funny story, too. I'm at Golf Digest and John calls me and says, hey, man, the course I grew up playing in Oceanside is there's a danger that it might go away.

It's, it might, it might be bought by a developer. We're trying to rally the community. I need some positive press here.

Do you mind coming out and we're doing this hundred hole hike out here and to try to raise money and awareness and you know, and I was like, you know anything John's. John calls and I'm like you're in. Whatever, whatever it is. I'm sure it's incredible. Yeah, I'm sure. Great.

So I fly out my, my parents at the time living in Southern California. My dad, I'm staying with them. My dad drives me out. It's before sunrise and we start driving up that driveway to. I'm starting to piece this together.

Goat Hill Park. Goat Hill, Goat Hill. And we're going to be playing a hundred holes. I'm and I'm, I'm carrying my bag. There's you know that's part of the deal. Right.

And True Linkswear had sent me shoes, brand new shoes to wear the spot they were going to pitch in. So brand new sho hundred holes. Goat Hill park and I we're clap. We're driving up the driveway and I'm like oh my God, what is going on?

What I get myself into? Sure enough we teed off sunrise and nine holes in to your point and your friends point. Like what are we doing? I'm doing this for six loops.

I mean the blisters on the sides of my bottom of your feet were literally the sizes of the bottoms of my like my entire bottom of my foot had become one big blister. You made it. I was not ready for that. 100, 108 holes at goat Hill park. Carrying my bag and helped raise money for Retina Blastoma.

Kyle Legrasso was the kid at the time that he actually came out and carried my bag for nine of the holes which was, which reminded me of why I was doing it and reminded me that this, this mattered and, and the, the inspirational push that I needed to kind of get through that the day but that's my introduction to Goat Hill park was a -hundred hole high 108 hole hike with John carrying my bag. And, and it's gotten better every day since.

I've never walked six round I, I, but I walk, I carry my bag almost every time I'm out there and unless little guy is with me because he can't walk. He can't walk all 18 holes yet he's getting there but not, not yet.

How, how long did that take.

The 100 holes, 108 holes. That was a sunrise to sunset situation like that. We, we didn't, we weren't rushing it, but we definitely finished as the sun was going down.

I mean it was, and it was three of us who played and three, my dad drove the cart around and got us Gatorades and got me some band aids but wasn't working on my feet. But it, it became, became a pretty cool moment in time that I'll never forget.

So I know you've kind of been to most places that any, any golfer would kind of aspire to go to. What's a hidden gem experience and could be one of the ones that you're doing stories on these days.

But what's a place where you got to and you're like, man, people don't know about this and they, they really need to know about this one.

I mean, dad, that, that used to be a more of a thing prior to social media and so many golf, you know, influencers out there running around and, and, and sharing special experiences. Right.

Yeah.

Forest Dunes in Central Michigan was used to be a hidden gem. Art Glass in Northern Ireland is, you know, was a hidden gem.

Now it's been, you know, Critch island is, is a, is a nine hole golf course in Ireland where, you know, I guess it would, would have been considered a hidden gem.

Corbulis right outside of Dublin is, is my latest hidden gem where I went €30 right outside of Dublin is kind of the Goat Hill park of Dublin, Ireland.

And you know, when I, I just was played it for the first time this summer and I was like, I'm about to drop a little feature on and I'm like, oh my God, this place is that, you know, it's a hidden gem. That's truly a hidden gem. I think Golden Gate park is the latest example of, you know, the Goat Hill parks and the Winter park nines.

And I just got back from Canal Shores in the suburbs, Evanston, Illinois, right near where Northwestern's building a new stadium. That's a, you know, they just put five and a half million into resurrecting that community asset. There they go.

They went from like 75 people playing that golf course, you know, on the weekend to now they're getting 230 people on a Monday.

And it's kids and cultures and ages and you know, the diverse sort of clientele that it's, that it's attracting is just such so good for the soul and you know, like makes you feel so great for the game and Yeah, I mean, honestly, the list just is never ending in terms of places that you, you stumble upon in this game and over time. You know, I used to say Turning Stone in upstate New York was, you know, Stream Song.

Anything that's hidden isn't hidden for long nowadays in golf.

Right. Have you ever made your way down around these parts down to St. Louis or Midwest ish Missouri area?

No, my, my biggest Missouri discovery related to Big Cedar Lodge. Right. Which, whereas they eventually got married and now they're, you know, Johnny Morris and his son John Paul JP and you know, I love that family.

I love that story. I love what they've developed. I love, you know, the whole.

I think they're having some sort of creator classic there now and you know, but you know, it's, that's, that's Disneyland for, you know, adult golfers and it's cool. So that's my, my biggest chunk of time in Missouri. I did, I did get a chance to play. Well, I'm drawing a blank on the prairie dunes.

Over in Wichita.

Yeah. Yeah. So that skins. Yeah, but, but yeah, so sorry but that, you know, I haven't done.

I don't know if I don't have a bunch of Missouri experiences, unfortunately.

So tell me the story about you getting married at, at Big Cedar though, because I was reading a little bit online about, I mean that chapel there is just kind of incredible. I, I haven't played all the courses. I've been down to play the mountaintop. I played Buffalo Ridge. Trying to think that I.

The other ones were being built.

The last time I had actually stayed down there, but my wife and I just took our little guy down there and just stayed on the property and the whole thing. Like you said, you know, it's, it's a mecca for golfers, but it's a mecca for families too.

Totally. And, and, and I.

Golf wasn't a big piece of their, of their portfolio until, until I think Johnny Morris started realizing that in order to bring people to that area and celebrate, you know, the outdoors, you know, and that land which he grew up, you know, hiking as A kid golf was a great opportunity to do that. Bring people, get people off devices, get people walking around and experiencing the land that he loved so much.

And yeah, that, that, that, that chapel there at top of the rock where Jack Nicklaus built the par three course. You know, Johnny Morris built that chapel for his daughter's wedding. It looks like it's been there for 300 years. I thought it was.

Yeah, it looks like it has. As the story goes, he built it. It's a beautiful glass back window overlooking Table Rock Lake.

And I mean, it's some, it's mind bending the, the visuals up there, there. It's, you know, and apparently he, they built the whole thing and he did.

It wasn't exactly lined up the way he wanted it to as it related to the, the, the scene or the views or something. And he tore it down and moved it three feet over or something like that and rebuilt it. I mean, that, that's, that's, that's.

This guy's, this guy didn't become Johnny Morris and bass pro and, and eventually bought Cabela's. I mean, you know, he's, he doesn't mess around. He is a true visionary and, and a stickler for details.

And, and so, yeah, that I, my, my wife got married there sight unseen. She hadn't. I said, listen, of all the places I've found in all my years of travel, this is the one that I think, you know, this chapel in this view.

And I could see us coming up here with. We went up with 12 couples, you know, people that we knew is a little bit of an eloping kind of concept.

Without dealing with all the big families and the chaos of a, of a wedding, we kept it fairly simple and it, we went fishing, we played a little golf. There's the spa, you know. You know, it was, it worked on so many levels.

Not only for a wedding, for what's kind of unfolded to be a bachelor and bachelorette party, but then from a family standpoint, I can't wait to go back with the whole crew because that, the opportunities and the amenities are endless.

Just what he's doing down there is mind blowing. He's got the amphitheater now.

He's, I mean, he's just completely changed the landscape down there and it's, it's so cool to see so many different, different opportunities for people to do so many different things.

Yeah, he's, he, like I said, you know, you know, in all of, in all of my travels and I, I'm sure you, you would. Anybody who's in the game and has and gets around.

You're going to meet people who separate themselves from, you know, characters or visionaries or, and you know, Johnny Morris would be on my very, very short list of special incredible human being, like you know, icons of forget about golf, but just like American history that I, I feel very fortunate to say that I would call Johnny a friend. Right? Like, I mean, you know, Mike Kaiser, Bill Core, Ben Crenshaw.

I've really gotten close with, with David Kidd and I, I love, I've really enjoyed watching him evolve not only as an architect, but as a person and a father. And now, you know, he's a, he's a pilot. I've had the chance to fly around this country with David Kidd as the pilot.

He is as good of a pilot as he is an architect. And I think he's a really good architect.

I mean he, he, unlike some of the other prominent architects of, of his time, is not bending on being in the dirt. You know, you know, throughout the process of building a golf course at Stream Song, he's there every two weeks as he's building this golf course.

Not a lot of of his peers can say they're on the ground as much as David is. And, and it, and it shows I think in his, in his finished product. It really shows.

When you're looking at new courses and new layouts and things like that, what, what kind of catches your eye? What do you love seeing on a golf course? Architecture wise or playability wise or, you know, what kind of golf do you love to play and, and feel out?

Well, I mean, I think, I think if you go to Gamble Sands and you see that original golf course and you see the playability of that, you know, where from, from an optic standpoint, you're, you know, it's, it's, it's welcoming, it draws you in, you, you're excited to hit the tee shot and then what happens once the ball hits the ground and have. It's funneling in different places and sort of, and more often than not it's going towards the hole as opposed to away from the hole. That's fun.

You know, David had lost his way and, and he would tell you the same thing. You know, he needed some self reflection. He was, he was catching some heat.

He was building things that may have looked good, you know, at first glance, but, but wasn't translating into playability or fun or you know, people were losing golf balls and, and credit to him.

He had some self reflection and he was like, hold on, done what what was it about Band and Dunes that got me these other ongoing opportunities that I may or may not be, you know, doing the right way.

And he thought back to, you know, what his strategy was at Band and Dunes and, and the playability and fun and utilizing the land and the way it was sort of of what it was dictated to him. And he goes to build Gamble Sands. And Mike Kaiser went and said, oh my God, I love what you're doing here.

Come on to Sand Valley and do Mammoth Dunes. But you know, you got Band and Dunes, you got Mammoth Dunes. Those are the two most popular courses at those destinations.

So those are the two most played golf courses at those two top destinations. And so what, why, you know, maybe at Band and Dunes it's because the nine holes come to, to the clubhouse right there.

Of the all the other courses, there's no other course that has the ninth hole come back to the clubhouse. Sheep Ranch comes back at 11. But you got the OG band in the Mammoth Dunes. And Mammoth Dunes is, I don't know if you've gotten to play it.

It is fun, right?

Like you can kind of hit it anywhere off the tee, but, but if you hit it in the right place, it's going to be better, you know, it's going to be a better opportunity from a second shot, you know, perspective.

But that's the kind, you know, getting people off the tee and getting people finding their golf ball, you know, and then which LED leads, you know, which goes back to Gamble Sands, which is wildly popular to the point where they're considering even a third, third 18 hole course at that resort already. I mean, Scarecrow and what he did with, with Nick Sean is, is off to a fiery start. Beautiful. Beautiful. What do I like? I like holes that pull me in.

I like golf courses.

After you're sort of putting out on the 3rd or the 4th or the 7th or the 9th or the 12th, you're already thinking about, hold on, how I want to go back, I want to start, I want to play this again. Right? There's that inherent feel that you get of like, wow, I want to slow this down. I don't want it to end. This is so much fun.

You're, you're, you're taking in what's going on around you.

The visuals, the energy that's happening within your group, you know, the, the, you know, the idea that you're finding your, you're not, you know, TPC Sawgrass. Kiawah. You know, I, if I'm digging into my bag more often than I'M sort of putting for birdie or apart.

Like, I just, I don't, I don't really need that anymore. I don't, I, I know. I'm well aware that I'm mediocre golfer. Right.

I, I, you know, we're taking, if you're taking four or five hours away from your family or whatever else is going on in life or work, you know, to me, it's gotta, it's gotta, it's gotta check the boxes of fun, you know, you know, experience, equality, experience, good conditioning, you know, the basics. But also the Goat Hill park kind of vibe where it's like, this is my community, this is, these are my kids.

This is, you know, this is my, you know, an extension of what would be a family. So that vibe and feeling is, is sort of what matters to me.

And architecture, Architecture can only enhance, it can enhance that or get in the way of that.

Like, if architecture is, is frustrating and annoying and not easy on the eyes and, and cost, you know, costing you shots or lost balls or, you know, like, I don't know, I'm over it. I don't need the, I don't need the double diamonds, so to speak, on a regular basis.

I, I couldn't, couldn't agree with you more. I mean, at this point in my life, I know I'm not going to be a scratch golfer. I know that I'm not going to play for any kind of a USGA title.

We've got our, Every Friday morning, we go out super early with our, our buddies. Kind of our version of a Goat Hill. It's called Root Park. It's a little muni course. And we go out, we tee off at 6, 10 in the morning.

We've got five tee times. We got 16 to 20 guys that go out. We're done by 8, 30, 9 o', clock.

Everybody goes to work and you know, like that's, and then, you know, make time on the weekend if you can go play with the kids or whatnot. There's nothing better.

No, there, there really isn't.

And, you know, and the evolution of a golfer, the difference between what we do when we're teenagers versus what we do when we're 20s and what we do in our 30s and how much we play when we get into our 40s. And then, you know, sort of the mindset we're in our 50s, it's like it changes, right? And so, and, and I'm here for all of it, right?

It was, it was, it was great then. It's different now.

We, you know, on our annual buddies trip, we've gone from, you know, 36 holes a day to sleeping in a little 18 putting course part three course in the afternoon. You know, you know, it's, it just the, the values change, the priorities change. But the good news is it's all out there for us.

Has there ever been a more buyer's market in terms of what the options are from, you know, the Golden Gate Parks and Goat Hill Parks and Winter Park Nines and the Butler Parks and in Austin and, and the Canal Shores and like those have, those have continued to be been like, oh, by the way, we should, we should, we should lean into this community asset and then from the high end from a consumer standpoint in terms of, you know, destinations like Band Dunes and Sand Valley and Stream Song and, and Big Cedar Lodge and you know, I mean, wow.

You know, the, the, the, the opportunity for us to, I mean the list goes on and on and on about where we can go to have that high end Buddy Strip experience. Now we haven't even mentioned the Irelands and Scotlands and, and then the Melbourne's and you know, I mean, my goodness, it's just endless.

So good time to be a retail golfer right now with all the travel.

That you do for the production. I know you, you do your buddy's trip out to. Is it still out to Bandon every year?

Yeah, I mean we have deviated from Bandon twice. Pinehurst and Sand Valley. We will be back at Bandon for the next two years.

Then it's Stream Song gonna, we're gonna, I think with my relationship with David and what they've done and you know, because my, my annual Buddy Strip really needs at least three golf courses, but we need a short course and we need a putting course because we have putting tournaments within the big tournament. You know, that's the structure of the Uncle Tony. We're giving away four or five trophies within the framework of the big tournament.

So there's only so many places that even qualify to be an Uncle Tony destination. Pine Nurse is certainly one of them. Sand Valley was definitely one of them.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Before we, we wrap up, I needed to ask you about two things. The first one is as I'm searching For Machinella, looking up, you know, what's going on with Matt, the thing that keeps popping up is Katie Ginella.

What does Katie Ginella's husband do?

I can't believe it took this long.

So tell me. And I've never been a Real Housewives watcher, but. So your wife is on Real Housewives of Orange county, is that right?

That's correct.

And what has that been like and how long? Because this is a totally new world for me.

Yeah, no, I stopped watching season one, episode four. I tapped out. I was like, this is, this is too much for me. I can't watch. I literally, honestly, it's very hard to watch. I watch my wife live it.

I'm, you know, a very, I have a small, small role in the framework of the actual production of the show in terms of. I'm just there to support my wife. I'm her husband and the father of her kids. Right.

So, and so I do my best to, you know, but I'm, I'm more fascinated, quite frankly, by the production of all of it. The size of the crews and how they're creating the narrative arcs and what they do and how they do it.

It is, it is a wildly, I would say, dysfunctional framework to TV show. I mean, you know, I, I'm, I'm, yeah, I, I don't know how much I, and how much I can say or even that you'd even care to hear.

I, I, I will tell you that, you know, my wife got asked to do it. We obviously sat down and said, should we consider it?

You know, because at that time, you know, didn't even know if it was going to actually become a reality.

So I was like, who am I to say, like, if this is something that I've interested, Quite frankly, Jeff, my wife has been dealing with, you know, women's groups her whole life being a woman. Friend groups, not unlike what we navigate as men, as friend groups. Right.

And, and I've watched the ebbs and flows of those relationships come and go and the drama that unfolds inherently by, you know, having a group of, of women get together on a regular basis, just like you'd have in some way shape or form groups of guys get together.

And I said to her, hey, if we can get paid to have you be a part of all of that, you know, and we can offset some of the costs that come with you being socially active in the, in, you know, in your, your, in your friend group, let's do it. You know, like, it's up to you. I mean, I'm like, okay, we can monetize you. Being social, that's amazing. And.

But at the end of the day, I, you know, it's her thing. It's her opportunity to, you know, have a platform and she's super. She's an amazing human being. I. I don't.

Unfortunately, they haven't taken much time to actually get to know her. They just yell at her or. She's the first Asian from Korea. She's from Korea.

So she's the first Asian on Real Housewives of Orange county in 19 seasons. Well, she's the first Korean across any of the, of the housewife franchises.

She's a Korean adoptee and she's, you know, she's fun and stylish and beautiful. In my mind, you know, I'm.

I'm biased, but I think she's amazing human being and I love, you know, her getting a chance to, to sort of showcase some of who she is.

Someday they might actually take a second to not yell at her and listen to what she has to say, which seems to fly in the face of the framework of the show in itself. So, yeah, it's quite interesting. It's. It's made us closer as a couple and a family as she goes through this craziness and I love and support her.

It's. It's funny because I was talking to my wife and I'm like, I don't know anything about this show, but I always just kind of hear it. It's just chaos.

And I'm like, man. And Matt seems like the most chill, like, laid back California guy that I've ever met. And I just thought it was amazing.

I was just curious, like, how much does it infringe on, like you guys, like time wise, like, how much are they there in your house or. I don't know.

During the, the production schedule is like four months. So it's, you know, it's February, March, April, May. And during that time, you know, it's.

It's five, six days a week for her shooting Mic'd up, you know, going out on these adventures as, you know, whatever they go and whatever they do for me and the, and the kids, it's.

It's generally one or two days a week where they're popping in and micing us up or having my wife will inherently come down and back and Download me on 1. What's transpired and they'll come back and I'm miked up for that. They. They don't use. They don't use a Lot of that. They. They.

They use a select amount. I have found myself in some of these situations. You know, I, I can't help myself. I, I, you know, I find it all fascinating.

And, you know, certain situations where, you know, some of the women are like, come up, and I can't. I'm like, oh, you know, what are you gonna. You know, I've. I don't know. People watching the season, I've. I've. I don't know.

Locked horns, I think, would probably be a dramatic way of saying it. With Shannon Beador is, like, one of the longtime ones.

She started yelling at me because I think she just wanted to yell at somebody, so I got in the way. And then Tamara Judge, who's like, this iconic member of the OC and of housewives in general, you know, I. I couldn't help myself.

But call her out on one of the aspects of the hypocrisy of, like, wait, you started this, but now you pretend to care? And I was like, come on, really? You know, so there's been these little moments where I. I just.

Like I said, I'm there to support my wife, and she doesn't really need it. She kind of does. She's. She's too nice, I think, for most of these women, to be quite honest with you.

I've told her many times I'm not sure they deserve you, and that, you know, I try to mostly stay out of the fray, but, you know, it. It happens.

Smart man. Smart man.

It's kind of like when my wife and daughter get into an argument, right? Like, the best thing to do is grab a little guy. Let's go hit some balls, right? Get.

Get.

Get out of the way. Get out of the way of that stuff.

Absolutely. You don't want any shrapnel, that's for sure.

No, no, no.

All right, my friend. Last one. We call this the golf confessional.

And Golf Don't Lie is about, you know, like, no matter who you are, golf is going to kind of expose who you are in many situations. Is there anything that.

That golf has exposed in you or a lesson you've learned about yourself through the game, whether that be actually out on the course or just all the experiences that you've had in this world?

I mean, humility, right? That's the number one thing for me that I think the game does for everybody.

Whether you want it or not, whether you're there for it or not, it doesn't matter, you know, like, whether you're Scotty Scheffler or Tiger Wood or whoever, you know, the world beaters of the game, titans of, of industry who, you know, they've built fortunes and, and you know, have thousands of employees at the end of the day, you know, athletes, you know, Olympic medalists, Super bowl champions, you know, I remember seeing Matt Ryan just cold top went off the first tee at pebble beach in front of a large, you know, Matt Ryan, you know, like, he, you know, and we've seen Tom Brady or the, you know, Steph Curry, it doesn't matter. The game doesn't play any favorites, in my opinion. It's going to remind you that, you know, you're probably not as great as you think you are.

You know, it's going to expose you. You know, I was with my daughter, right, like, and we're playing father daughter, and I wanted so badly to play well for her.

We're on a team and I, I hadn't been playing much going into it and, you know, the elements weren't exactly easy that they had some rain, the rough had gotten rough. There's some narrow fairways at the old time in the Sandy Hills course.

And, and she's looking at me like, you know, you're supposed to be the golfer, you know, what are you doing, dad? What are you, you know, and I was, I just felt this big, you know what I mean? And I just felt reminded that.

But you gotta, you can't take this too serious. You can't, you can't actually think that, you know, you're as great as you are.

And I just think it forces you in those moments to just be reminded that, you know, I don't know, treat everybody with a general sense of kindness and respect and, you know what I mean? I, you know, I just, I think humility to me is the exclamation point on the common denominator of.

If you really give yourself to this game and allow yourself to learn from it, the biggest thing you need to learn is that, you know, you're not as. You're not as great as you might think you are in other aspects of, of life in general. And just, you know, be a decent person.

Don't be an Lucas Nelson. Son of Willie Nelson told me once, I said, you know, we're playing golf. And I said, hey, man, you're an incredible. You're incredible soul and spirit.

And you, you have every right to, to be a complete. You know, you're the son of Willie Nelson. You don't.

You probably don't have to ever worry about money or anything, you know, and Here he is a really accomplished singer, songwriter, musician. He's incredible, right? And he loves golf and he's playing barefoot. We're in Maui. And I said, how did you end up becoming such a.

A good person, you know, given all that you could have, you know, could be or might be. And he said, ah, it's pretty simple. We had three basic rules of, you know, being a Nelson growing up, the son of. Of Willie and my mom.

And that was, number one, don't be an. Number two was don't be an. And number three was don't be a goddamn.

And I was like, those three rules are all you need to, you know, all you need to follow in life. And I think things are going to probably turn out in a decent way.

I don't think I could say it any better. Don't. Don't be an asshole. So good.

That's it. Yeah.

Matt, I can't thank you enough for your time. You've always been so gracious to. To take some time out of your day to.

To share with us and really look forward to seeing what's coming from Fire Pit Productions, this whole partnership with Kemper Sports. I know you're going to kill it and just really looking forward to it, man. Thanks for coming on.

Thanks for having me. I've always enjoyed, you know, our, Our. Our opportunities to catch up and continue success with what you're doing and how you're doing it.

And, you know, the consistency is inspiring and the. The quality and the thoughtful approach that you take to these conversations and so many others. So thanks for everything.

Thanks for having me and hope to cross paths soon, like, come on out to Goat Hill park and I'd love to host.

I definitely am going to make that happen. And if you ever want to make it over to the Midwest, we got some courses to show you here, too.

Sounds great. I appreciate it.

All right, buddy. Appreciate you. Thanks for tuning in to Golf don't lie and 18 strong podcast.

I truly appreciate you spending part of your day with us, whether that be on your commute, at the gym, on the range, or during one of your strong walks.

If you enjoyed this episode, the best way to support the show is to hit that subscribe button on Apple Podcast, subscribe, Spotify, or whatever platform you listen and leave us a quick rating and review. It only takes about 10 seconds, and it helps other golfers just like you find us. Even better.

Share your favorite episode with a golf buddy or in your group chat. And of course, if you're on Instagram, come hang out with us over at 18 strong.

We're constantly posting golf fitness and lifestyle content from the crew to help you play more golf and live more life. Golf Don't Lie is brought to you by our team here at 18 strong strong.

A special thanks to our producer Bill Smith for making us sound like we know what we're doing, to Beth Daniels for artistic skills that designed our sick podcast cover, and Jordan Bombstark for his mix Master skills and music in each episode. Until next time, I hope you play more golf and live more life. And remember, no matter who you are, Golf Don't Lie.