Everybody says they want to know how they're doing as a CEO. Then they fill the board with friendly faces, let the team filter the bad news, and cancel coaching when the numbers get ugly.

Bill tells the story of interviewing his own leadership team at the jewelry company he ran for eleven years, and hearing two leaders tell him he was the wrong kind of leader. He explains what he did with that, why it led to a turnaround, and why feedback lands like a verdict when your identity is wrapped up in your role.

Then the prescription: a real scorecard for the CEO that someone else holds you to, anonymous questions to your team, and the discipline to say thank you instead of explaining.

In This Episode

• Why "how am I doing?" is usually asked in a way that guarantees "great"
• The Fernando Flores style assessment interview and how to run one
• Five ways CEOs avoid the truth: no CEO scorecard, a friendly board, a filtering team, skipped coaching, and cancelled quarterly planning
• Why you know you are a micromanager but not how severe it looks from the other side
• This week: ask one person an uncomfortable question, then shut up and listen

Host Links

• Scaling Coach: scalingcoach.com
• Busy Is Broken: busyisbroken.com
• CEO Behavior Study: scalingcoach.com/study

Scaling Up Business Podcast with Bill Gallagher

I wonder if you really want to know

how you're doing as a CEO.

See, everybody says, yes,

I want to know how I'm doing and

how I can improve.

But then the other behaviors and suggests

that either consciously or unconsciously,

you probably don't actually want to know.

So I'm not sure that I believe you

when you say you want to know.

Everybody, I'm Bill Gallagher,

Scaling Coach and host of the Scaling Up

Business podcast.

Also author of Busy Is Broken.

This show comes to you every week with

tales, stories, that kind of thing.

This solo episode explores CEO feedback

and how do we level up as a

CEO?

Let me start off with kind of my

personal story.

Look,

I never really liked to know how it

was, although I said I did.

The truth is,

if I talk to you about a problem

that I was dealing with,

I used to go to my wife all

the time complaining about this or that

with several different companies.

But I remember one time in particular

talking about our jewelry business,

the one she started years ago that I

came in and ran for eleven years as

CEO and worked on scaling.

Anyway, so I'm complaining about,

I don't know, probably at any given time,

lots of people, people on my team,

vendors, partners, customers,

like all that kind of thing.

And then Lori would always flip it back

to me.

She'd be like,

here's what's wrong with you.

Here's what's wrong with you.

Here's what you're not doing.

And I would get so mad.

And I'm like, no, there's a real problem.

I need to fire those people,

fix those people.

discipline those people.

I need to do something.

And I just always wanted to focus on

the other person in whatever the matter

was, right?

And every time I'd be having a problem

and somebody told me it was my fault,

it'd be very upsetting to me.

And in general, I don't walk around going,

what's wrong with me that I have this

situation in life?

I go, what's wrong with the other people?

Now, maybe I'm more arrogant than you,

right?

That's definitely a good chance.

But I know some of you are like

me,

and you want to focus on what is

wrong with everybody else.

And it's really hard to think that you

have something to do with it.

So here's the thing.

There's definitely issues with other

people, but my wife, Lori,

would always flip it to me.

She's like, yeah,

maybe there's an issue there,

but who are you that you hired them,

kept working with them,

didn't draw the line with them who are

you that you created and tolerated this

situation to get to this breaking point

and I I think that it's uncomfortable and

I get defensive and I don't like to

hear it but I've learned to know that

the very easiest person for me to work

on is me

And while there might be things to do

with the other people around me, right,

customer, employee, partner, vendor,

like whatever,

there's always then me who created that

situation.

So it is ultimately like liberating and

empowering to realize you and I are the

ones who created the situation.

And there are lots of ways of doing

it.

So we know the 360 review.

We know what it is to have a

coach.

Hopefully you have had a coach.

I shared, I started having coaches,

business coaches in my twenties.

And this friend of mine,

Mike Maddock last night at dinner was

like, oh my God,

you had a coach in your twenties?

I'm like, yeah, it was about twenty-five.

And I started,

I had another one at twenty-seven.

So I had at different points.

business coaches,

and it was really useful because I could

just say, tell me what to do next.

What am I missing?

Where do I need to go?

And it made my life a lot easier.

One of the things that I got coached

to do was to find out how I'm

doing as a leader in a deep,

rich way.

So a coach can give you feedback.

You can look at your numbers.

You can have an advisory group like a

forum or a Vistage group.

And you could do a 360 review.

All of these things are good.

I actually suggest you do all of them.

But the other one that we talk about

in the book Busy Is Broken

that I did is, um, uh,

this kind of in-depth rich interview

assessment from Fernando Flores.

So Fernando Flores, really interesting,

um, philosopher, business politician,

et cetera.

Uh, and he said,

we are so focused on like being polite

and not really telling the honest truth.

It'd be really great to get a rich,

like, uh,

in-depth assessment for people.

So I got coached by my coach to

go do a handful of these.

And I interviewed some of the people on

the leadership team for the jewelry

company that I had come in to get

over that I was running now.

Um, and it was, it was, uh,

It was, in moments, uncomfortable.

And I think a lot of times we

are afraid to open up this can of

worms, like start something,

then have to deal with it.

But I've always been a good student,

a good coachee.

And so I like, you know,

if I get the assignment,

I'll do it even and go through the

uncomfortable places and notice what I

notice and then share that back with my

coach, teacher, trainer,

like whatever it is.

I went and did a couple of these.

I probably did four of them on the

leadership team,

maybe some of the others in the company.

And I said, all right,

how am I doing as a leader?

I need your feedback for me to lead

this company effectively,

and I'm really committed to growing us,

and I want to know how I'm doing.

I want your honest opinion.

I want your, the real truth.

I don't want you to tell me what

makes me feel good.

I really, I'm serious about it.

I want it.

It's okay.

Like anything you say.

So I spent a moment or two giving

like rich permission and, and, and,

and meaning it.

And then I started with the easy part.

So this helps to continue to build that.

Yeah.

What am I doing that's good?

Like, what's good about me?

What's reliable?

What are my strengths?

Like, tell me all the good stuff.

And then I brought curiosity to that.

Is that really true?

How do you feel about that?

Not defensive or deflection or like, yes,

no, whatever.

I'm curious.

Tell me more.

So now we're into all of it.

And it's starting to be like, oh,

they can tell.

I do actually want to know.

And we get a bit of it.

And then after we've got the main points

and I've kind of probed them a little

bit and I'm really seeking to understand,

I'm demonstrating that I seeked out.

I said, okay,

let's talk about maybe the things that you

don't love so much or where I'm missing

something or like that.

And then I probe that.

Messes or upsets.

weaknesses gaps like talk to me about that

tell me and again I'm curious and so

as I'm curious and like bringing more

curiosity digging into it a little bit now

more and more is coming out and I'm

getting more of it along the way two

of the leaders in particular said to me

You're the wrong kind of leader.

We like the old leader, your wife,

who's the founder of the company.

And the way she worked with us was

like this.

And she did these things and helped us

in this way.

And you don't do any of that.

And I was like, oh, wow,

that's interesting.

Yeah, I get that.

I could see why you'd like that and

why you miss her in that role.

And I thought about it for a minute.

And I thought about, well,

what should I do with this?

And then I had this insight.

I'm forever going to be a disappointment

to them.

It's just not in my nature.

Like I could stretch to do that some

of the time, but it'd be fake.

And I have zero commitment to being that

kind of leader like she was.

Fine.

It's a valid kind of style of leadership

and role as a founder of a company

to do what she did in that way.

But I wasn't that and I wasn't going

to be that.

And I had a different intention for where

we were going with the company.

So in the minute there in the thing,

I said, you know what,

I'm probably forever going to be a

disappointment to you in that because I'm

never going to be like that.

And I'm committed to these things and I'm

going to focus on that.

And I'm never going to do those things

that she did.

And they're fine, good things,

but they're not the only way to lead.

And they're definitely not the way that

I'm going to do it.

And like, if you need that,

you're never really going to be happy with

me.

And I didn't say you should move on

or whatever,

but that is what I was thinking.

Anyway,

not long after they both left the company

and it was somewhat disruptive and good,

but ultimately actually really good.

Because I could bring in people who were

willing and interested to work with the

company in the way with a leader that

was going to do what I did.

And there were good points there, right?

So I had to actually deal with what

was there.

It was uncomfortable.

I didn't like hearing it.

And again and again,

like leaning into the discomfort and

opening the conversation,

even though it led to a shift and

vacancies like upsets,

like disruption in my leadership team in

the company,

ultimately led to good things and a

turnaround in the business that was

necessary.

So here's what it looks like.

When you do it,

when you and I do it,

there's a few things that I see again

and again.

The first one is no scorecards for the

CEO.

So everybody,

we go to work on building scorecards and

you maybe do it through the motions,

but you never finish yours and nobody else

uses your scorecard to hold you

accountable, right?

You don't.

say,

finish and develop your scorecard like you

do with everybody else on the team,

and you don't give it to the board

or to me or your coach or whatever

and say,

or even a buddy or your COO and

say, okay,

now I want you also to hold me

accountable for living up to my scorecard.

um you ask how I'm doing but you

ask it in a way that guarantees you're

doing great man you ask it in a

way that skirts the like in-depth the

critique um so you ask how am I

doing or how like things like that and

but you do it in a way that

that guarantees you're not gonna get the

biting comment

You fill your board,

whether it's a fiduciary board,

a controlling board, or an advisory board,

you fill it with people that are friendly

to you, that share your point of view,

and they don't push you and challenge you.

And you surround yourself with a team that

filters the bad news.

They know what's going to trigger you and

have you lose your cool in the office,

and they filter it and they make it

easier and smoother for you.

You hire a coach,

but then you cancel sessions with me or

with your coach when the numbers are ugly,

when there's a crisis.

You're like, oh,

this isn't really a time for the scaling

up coaching.

I'm going to go work on this separate.

You don't bring whatever you're struggling

with and upset about to the coaching

conversation.

You keep that separate.

The coaching conversation is just for

doing the big growth things,

the good news stuff or whatever.

And you put it on pause.

You delay it.

You do whatever.

And you avoid those kinds of things.

And even you'll cancel or skip quarterly

planning.

I see this all the time.

Oh, we got a big situation right now.

We can't do planning.

This is a really common thing.

We're going to cancel it.

Now,

I don't usually fire clients for doing it.

It's all too common.

But I point out that the very...

significant emergency or thing that you're

grappling with,

I actually ought to come into the session

and we ought to talk about what's like

wrong with you as a leadership team,

as a CEO,

as a company that you're in this

situation.

What do we do about it?

We want to take a long,

hard look in the mirror and collectively

look at how we're doing to do it.

So these are some of the common things

that I see again and again,

and you and I both do them.

So here's why, right?

Why is that your identity,

in particular founders and CEOs,

who you are for yourself is so tied

to the role that you have.

It's so all encompassing.

The feedback that you get lands as a

verdict, like an indictment on you.

And not knowing,

like focusing on something else,

lets you feel good,

lets you get through the day and grapple

with that.

And feeling good is important,

like finding a way to feel good enough

to get your job done.

And the bigger you go,

the bigger your company is,

the more people on your team,

the layers of your management,

the less the truth reaches you.

And ignorance becomes kind of the set

point.

And then when things are like whatever,

the things you don't want to look at,

you busy yourself, right?

So busy is broken.

We don't talk as much about this in

the book,

but we will busy ourselves and work on

things that we enjoy or that we like

doing, that we're comfortable doing,

rather than going to the more

uncomfortable things to look into where it

is.

So

There's a prescription and I want to talk

to you about like,

what are some things that you could do

right now?

So first of all, develop a scorecard,

create an actual scorecard with metrics

and things like that,

and give it to at least one other

person to hold you accountable to

delivering on your role.

Ask your team anonymous questions.

What should you stop doing?

What should you retire?

Where should you level up as a leader?

Ask questions like that in anonymous ways

so that people can give you feedback with

some safety, right?

And when the answers come back to you,

don't get defensive.

Don't explain it.

Don't whatever.

Say, well, thank you.

Like I did with the leaders on my

team.

Thank you so much.

I am always going to disappoint you.

You might go and clean it up.

You might shift something in some way,

right?

But notice if you haven't heard something

that stung, that felt uncomfortable,

like that was calling you out personally,

then there's an issue.

Now, ultimately, the way to shift it,

right,

is to create a goal and to go

to, like in the book,

I talk about my going to Italy,

the Italy test.

There's a whole chapter on that and a

forcing function that helps.

But in order to do that and to

go from where you are today to where

you need to be with a company that

doesn't rely on you,

a team that doesn't rely on you,

we have to know where you are right

now.

You want to know how you live for

other people.

And here's the thing I know again and

again.

The leaders that I work with,

you and I, we kind of know, oh,

I'm a perfectionist.

Oh, I'm a micromanager.

You've been it again and again in your

life, maybe even today,

and you do it in response to stress

and pressure and that kind of thing.

You're like, well,

I have to be a perfectionist because our

work matters in that way or whatever,

like that kind of thing.

So you know.

What you don't know is the severity of

of how it is and you have like

rationalizations or justifications for how

it is because I did everybody I work

with does the same thing well I am

that way because we have this because it

really matters because it's life or death

because it's financial because we have an

obligation because there's regulatory

because we're in a time of crisis because

of look on and on and on you

have an explanation for why it's not so

bad and why it's actually a necessary

behavior on your part

but you probably have very little

appreciation of what it's like to be the

other person, persons dealing with you.

So you don't know what it looks like,

how severe it looks from their

perspective,

And you don't know what it feels like

to be them.

You don't know how bad it is.

So start this week.

Ask one person an uncomfortable question.

Shut up and listen.

Go read the chapter on the interviews.

Do some form of that.

Do the 360.

If you're in a workshop with me,

do our live diagnostic,

but get your team's input after you do

the personal one.

And then see the whole thing.

Get at least three people in that.

So you get kind of a rich,

anonymous picture of how you are.

And that's an opportunity to level up,

as it's easy for me to say, right?

So that's your invitation for this week.

Start to pull out some of the input.

Then start to upgrade it.

Keep looking for how you are.

You could also look at home.

How am I as a mom or a

dad, right?

All really,

really useful things to begin to look at.

Hope that's helpful for you.

Keep watching.

Keep listening.

Go read Busy Is Broken if you haven't

done that.

And until next time, keep scaling.