On this episode of The Leadership Locker, Rich talks with author and executive coach Dorie Clark. Listen in as Rich and Dorie discuss playing the long game, strategic patience, and the problem with trying to be everything to everyone.

Dorie Clark has been named one of the Top 50 business thinkers in the world by Thinkers50, and was recognized as the #1 Communication Coach in the world by the Marshall Goldsmith Leading Global Coaches Awards. Clark, a consultant and keynote speaker, teaches executive education at Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business and Columbia Business School, and she is the author of The Long Game, Entrepreneurial You, Reinventing You and Stand Out, which was named the #1 Leadership Book of the Year by Inc. magazine.

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Personal Branding | Rich Cardona Media

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The Long Game by Dorie Clark

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• 00:09 – Introduction
• 05:29 – “Everything takes longer than we want it to”
• 07:18 – Trying to be everything to everyone
• 10:18 – Spending your time with the right people
• 13:31 – Setting the right goals
• 18:12 – Strategic patience
• 21:16 – The 20% Rule
• 23:47 – Heads Up / Heads Down Framework
• 30:56 – Content creation and social proof
• 35:22 – Pay-to-play
• 39:29 – Networking
• 47:05 – Rethinking failure
• 54:14 – How to know when to quit
• 57:49 – How to connect with Dorie online
• 59:20 – Rich’s closing thoughts

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How to connect with Dorie:

Website

Twitter

LinkedIn

YouTube

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Connect with Rich:

Website

LinkedIn

Instagram

Facebook

YouTube

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Rocket Station

brooks@rocketstation.com

Okay, we will start with.

okay. uh, so dorry, thank you so much for being on. Uh, as I was just telling

you warming up, I flew through this book and I feel like a better person for

it.

That is very kind. thank you, rich,

Um, so we're going to talk about the long game, which is, uh, the new book

that just came out this week and I'm excited for it, but I'm going to tell you

the very first thing that I circled and it's in the introduction and I usually

you know, get into the me of it before I start taking those like, Oh, this'll

be good for the podcast. But the first thing that caught my attention was

Everything takes longer than we wanted to. Everything. Why is that in the

introduction and it? It should be like it's own page, but talk to me about

that.

but practically could have been the title of the book. I mean, ▁ultimately,

Playing the long game for me. It's the goal of the books not to valarize the

fact that things take a long time. It's not like. Oh, it's so great. Things

take a really long time. I don't like that either.

Yeah.

I don't. It would be so much better if things came really quickly when we

wanted them. but unfortunately, the the hard truth that most of us have had to

bump up against is it doesn't really work that way. Oftentimes. for the the

best goals, the most important goals, the most meaningful goals. It really does

take longer than we want,

Mhm.

and so if we are going to accomplish them nonetheless, we have to first of find

a way to reconcile ourselves to that,

yes,

and, second of all find a way to not give up

Mhm.

while that process is unfolding. And while we're working toward it, so that's

really why I wanted to write the long game.

Yeah, and I mean, and you did it? Um. You were picked up for it a day before

the first covet case in New York. Uh, which I? I read this and I was like she

did this in that short amount of time and outlook. I know your best selling

author, but I was superbly impressed by the manner in which this just flipped

uh so quickly, and the quality of it. Of course, so let's talk about the next

saying that I came up on. And if you were listening and you hear me thumbing

through pages, that's how I got a roll on this one Because I have a lot to go

through the business you were talking about, business owners, and this is the

White space chapter. Then, talking about saying no, that one business was

turning off any potential, didn't want to turn off any potential customers

because they tried to be everything to everyone. Now, whether you are a

business owner or whether you are an employee or whether you are a family

person.

talk to me, please about the downfall. So, to speak of trying to be everything

to everyone,

Yeah, Well, you know, I think most of us understand intellectually. you know

we. we've we've all heard, especially anyone who is an entrepreneur and

aspiring entreneur. we've all heard well, you know, if you're if you're selling

to everyone, you're showing to know one and we're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we

get it, we get it, but then when it comes time for us, we're like, but I might

miss a customer. What if I'm turning someone on that could have been my money?

It becomes so hard

in in practice and so some friends of mine who I think are really fantastic

thinkers about this, Uh. Francis Fry is a professor Harvard Business School,

and Uh, she and her partner and Morris wrote a book together a number of years

ago called Uncommon Service, and they were trying to explore the question of

why it is that so many businesses are frankly, just eh, just boring. just

average. You know, we all can name our handful of exemplary businesses where

everybody gets like super excited and they're like the brand ambassadors, and

then most literally most other businesses in the world are like. Yeah, they're

fine and so they wanted to understand what's going on there and the really

interesting piece with this.

You can always get a business owner to say you know. So so what do you want to

be excellent at? And they're like, Oh, great, let me tell you, I'll be

excellent at this or this, and what they somehow magically assume is that you

can get away with being excellent at one or two things, and then everything

else will just be well. It'll be fine.

Yeah,

The truth is Francis and Anne discovered. If you actually truly are going to be

excellent, if you're going to be outstanding, It something. Most often

you actually have to make a very clear choice to be bad at something else,

because you need to borrow that time and borrow those financial resources to

apply it toward the thing that you want to be good at. So they, they profiled a

bank, For instance, that had great hours was open really really late. That was

wonderful, but most banks don't do that because it costs money.

yep,

And so this particular bank Commerce Bank decided

the way they would pay for it is that they would have really terrible interest

rates on their deposit accounts, and that that was a clear choice. But

yes,

the good news is they knew their customers. They knew their customers didn't

care about that. what they really wanted was the longer hours.

Mhm.

and so for all of us we need to actually be. be thinking. really, be honest

with ourselves. If I'm going to be great at something, something else is going

to slip. What? what can that be, and what can I live with? And if we're willing

to make those bold choices, then we really can be great.

Yeah, I think the interesting thing as you were just saying that, it kind of

like dawned on me like the long bank hours. right if I'm picking up my

daughter from day care and I like like, How am I like? She needs to stay at

day care as long as you can. So number one and too is, if I need to go to the

bank, a physical bank. For some reason, If it, they're open till seven. That

works for me. So the trade offs are both on the customer side and the business

owners side. And if you are able to merge those things together where the

paths converts, then you're going to be set now. Also in the chapter When

we're talking about white space, I love that you wrote this. Um, you're

talking about saying no, even to good things. Now you have a couple of

anecdotes in here, including surp, uh, you know, declining very politely, a

beautiful trip to Uh, Caribbean, uh location to talk, and and all these

things. but you talk about saying no to good things, and one parts

specifically is when someone wants to talk to you about something and I want

to borrow your time, and you have done this masterly. Of course, you know you

protect your time very well, but you said I'd love to see if I can be helpful.

Can you tell me a bit more about what you'd like to discuss and how I can be

useful? Can you talk to me about how that actually flips the script to a

certain extent?

Yeah, certainly rich, and I'm sure you haveve experienced this too. As as you

get, Uh, a little bit. you know, better known whether it's within your company

or're within your industry. There's more people that want to reach out to you,

which is wonderful. That's a lovely thing, but we sometimes assume erroneously

that these people have taken the time to do homework and you know, have

actually thought about it, And the truth is many people are not like that. They

just have the dimest idea. They're like. Oh, wow, I want to. I want to be like

rich. I want to talk to cool people. Hm. let me reach out to rich right now and

I'll ask him, and we people often have these defaults, right. They're like, Oh,

well, I'm going to pick his brain. Oh, I'm going to invite them for a meal, but

they sometimes just have absolutely no idea. And so they, you know, you might

have some kind of an admirer that just really misunderstands. Fundamentally

what it is? you Do you know all rich? I want to start a business like yours.

blah, blah. Well, Okay and then

Can I pick your brain?

and I figure rain, and then they start asking you questions and you're like

Wait. that's that's not my business. Like actually, my business is something

totally different than that, and Th, But you know you're already there. You're

already trapped and you've you've wasted a huge amount of time when. actually,

if you would just force them to specify a little bit more, you know, just to

check just to validate that they've taken the time to do it and they say

something to like. Oh yeah ritual, you know I, I, I want to have a business

like yours where I'm doing blah, blah, blah, And and you're able to discover

the error up front and save yourself that hour. you say. Oh gosh. I really wish

I could help you, but that's not at all what I do. so I don't know anything

about it, but I'm cheering you on.

Yes, yes,

So we you? You want to spend your time with the right people and you want to

spend your time in places where you can actually be helpful. Does not do anyone

any good for you to accept meetings with people where

you you know nothing and are not able to offer value.

yeah, well, then the long game becomes kind of an eternal game because you are

literally never gaining any time to to be focusing where accounts, which is

literally that the name of the next portion of the book now, and in focusing

where accounts you talk about setting the right goals if we are in a

situation. You and I have talked about this before way back when I first

started the podcast about misplaacing our time in our focus.

And and you know, one thing that I've used from you. I've stolen it

shamelessly Is you know, learning is a form of procrastination, and all over

the place and doing this and this, But can you talk to me about focusing where

accounts, by setting the right goals?

Yeah, certainly, so one of the concepts that I talk about in the long game that

I have have really seen both in my own experience and with the folks that I. I

work with executive coaching clients, Folks in my recognized expert community

is that oftentimes when people are feeling frustrated, they're feeling like

they're in a rut. they're feeling like. Oh, I'm trying to. I'm doing

everything, but you know it's not working. Why isn't it taking well? You peel

it back a little bit. And what you discover is that oftenimes the problem is

that people are. they're They are working hard. They are doing a lot. but

they're doing the same thing over and over again. And unless you work on an

assembly line, that's not what's going to get you ahead in our contemporary

society. We need to know how to do different types of things and to switch

between them and toggle between them. So I have a concept that I talk about

called Thinking in waves,

Yes,

and what that refers to is really understanding where you are in the cycle of

your professional journey, and then making the shift. we're relevant to the

next phase. So as you were alluding to rich, the first phase when we're

starting out in a new job or a new career is the learning phase where y, yeah,

soak it all in. Talk with everybody. read everything. Try it all out. That's

great, but if you keep doing that, it becomes a problem because you, you need

to be shifting into the creating phase, which certainly you are. Uh. Which is

how do you give a value back? How do you show people what's on your mind? How

do you actually contribute to the conversation? So people know that you have

something to offer rather than just you know, being a perennial student?

so I want to ask you

this. This is necessarily a concept from the book, but do you think people

don't take you seriously when

you' not setting the right goals, Meaning I could put out on social media

like, Oh, I'm taking do's course, or I'm doing this, or I'm doing seventy five

hard, or whatever it may be. And what they actually see is kind of a pile up

of you know inconsistencies and I'm not saying that we should worry about what

others judge, but it does affect us in terms of our ability to deliver,

Especially if we're a business owner. What do you think? Uh, you know how how

we should deal with that in terms of the perception we may get if we' setting

the wrong goals and just kind of doing the wrong things?

Yeah, well, I think you raise an important point. Rich and it, and it's true,

Um, you know, just as one example, I have spent a lot of time over the past few

years, Uh, really trying to understand the Broadway ecosystem, And so I do

investing in Broadway. I do writing. Uh, you know as a ▁lyricsist in Leb

Bretts, and so I, you know, a couple years ago had coffee with this woman and

she was. She was in the like, you know kind of positive thinking camp, I guess,

And she was an actress and she said, I've decided I'm going to be on Broadway.

This fall and I'm like, Wait? what? like di? Oh? you'. Okay, you're going to be

a brobb. This fa. great. amazing, You're going to be like acting in a show, or

you're going to be trying out for a show. No, Oh, it's going to be my show.

It's going to be a one woman show and I'm going to be on Broadway and I, I

tried to sort of ask these questions like is like Okay, you, You have. Do you

have a theater? Do you? you have funding? No, But, and from what I know about

how Broadway works,

this literally is the craziest thing I in the entire world Like she's smoking

crack. You do not a random person with no funding does not get a theater. Uh,

you know in in six months Because you snap your fingers, and you and you want a

theater. This literally is structurally impossible in the Broadway ecosystem,

And so anybody who is talking like that, I mean, I understand it's It's sort of

like Nice Vision board kind of

Yes,

stuff. But you, you look crazy and you look ill informed. And so I think there

is a fine line between. You know you want to understand how it's really

essential. You want to understand how the system typically works, and then from

there you can be as aspirational as you want You can. You know you can come up

with different ideas or different strategies, but you need to know what is what

is at least common, so that you can make strategic choices about what you're

doing or not doing. But if you come in and you don't even know when you're ill

informed, it's telegraphing to everyone that you really don't know what you're

doing,

I. I. I think there's some confusion. Uh, when people do this where there's a

blend of it being not only aspirational, but as if some way putting it out

into the universe is going to make other people hold you accountable, or you

hold yourself accountable because you put it out on social media when we all

know Um, you know you could delete a post any time you want to be like, Never

mind. I never said that, so I think I, I'm really glad you said that. I want

to talk about Um again. We're someone kind of focusing where accounts, and and

having time to explore. Now you mentioned that out Googleles, one of their

philosophies or one of their practices is for the people there that have

twenty percent have their time dedicated to kind of creativity. And I'm so

glad you like. It's more like a hundred twenty percent because you still have

to do everything else. I don't think you're cramming that twenty percent into

your normal duties, but can you talk to me about the twenty percent uh concept

and how that could actually help in terms of your long journey?

Yeah, absolutely. and just to add one more piece to the to the previous point,

Rich, I'll just say that, Um, you know when it when it comes to setting goals

and your uh, your intentions, and and things like that, Um,

there there is a difference. If you are setting a goal over which you have

▁ultimate control, then by all means do it. you know. If you, if you're you

know, wanting to put it out there for the world? Hey, I'm going to do a hundred

sit ups a day. Cr. Incredible,

Yeah,

you can do that. And so therefore, uh, you know that that's a totally rational

goal. I. I think where we run into trouble is that oftenimes a lot of our

goals. This is. this is the the essence of playing the long game. We have to

understand that a lot of our goals are unfortunately controlled to some

capacity by gatekeepers

yes, yes,

and that means that you know, and unless we have some special superpow ability,

Um, they, they might mess it up somehow. I might. I might want to be able to do

you know to be on Broadway in in six months, But if the Shoberts and the

Neerlanders and Juw Jamson are not giving me a theater, then I will not be on

Broadway in six months,

Mhm,

and that's why as long game players we need to to leverage what I call

strategic patience,

yes,

Because it's understanding. Okay, I don't love it that it's going to take

longer than I want, or it might take longer than I want. But I will deal with

that and I will do what is necessary to get there. So that's that's just a a

piece that I wanted to throw in.

well, that's that's yeah. I mean that's why. I mean, I'm saying in the

introduction, just that one line alone is, and I'm telling you, since the last

time we were in person together, I mean, many many things have changed

radically for me, but part of it is simply the acceptance of this might be

seven years to get to like where I. I see it happening. I'll be very happy if

it takes three. it might take ten, and I also understand conceptually that

there's land mines everywhere, self inflicted and external. Um, I mean,

everyone just went through the pandemic right, so so many different things can

happen, but the acceptance of it really has this kind of calm quality. Yeah,

this is supposed to happen. Um, or this is not supposed to happen yet. Uh,

it's it's a long game, but uh, now I'm getting us off topic. Sorry, but the

twenty percent rule. Uh, if you could talk about that concept I, I'd love to

know a little bit more.

Yeah, certainly rich. So twenty percent time. as as you mentioned, this is Uh,

this is a a concept originated by three, m, uh, the uh, the famous post note

company,

Mhm,

and uh, it was fifteen percent time for them. Google grabbed it and made it

twenty percent time and I, a point that I make in In the long game. I'll do the

obligatory waving of the book. Here.

yeah,

A point that I make in the long game is that

I actually believe that whether you work for a company or not, whether you work

for yourself or not, we should all be doing this because My, my most recent

book was called Entrepreneurial U, and in it I talked about how to create

multiple streams of revenue in your business, And this I think is important

because we want to de risk our careers as much as possible. I, early on I was a

reporter, you know, like a lot of people, I had one job. That was my job and I

got laid off. Suddenly. I had laid off on Monday September tenth. Two thousand

one, which you know in in the history of the world, is like a pretty poor time

to lose your job When when you know you're out knocking on doors on September

Eleventh, and so I realized very clearly, Wow, this is really precarious. Um, I

thought I was secure with the one job. Now I have ▁zero jobs and nobody's

hiring and so over time, and it did take a while. I operationalized it so that

I now have lots of different revenue streams. You know, it's online courses and

keynoes, and teaching and coaching and things like that. So that is one way of

derisking your business in your future, but another which I think is is

powerful for a lot of reasons. It's about giving yourself more access to

upside. it's about protecting the downside, and frankly, it's just about making

your life more interesting.

yes,

Is doing something like twenty percent time because it's allocating a portion

of your time portfolio to new activities and saying all right, you know the

path at least resistance always is just to like answer your email right. You

have to be forcible in guarding your schedule and guarding your time. But if

you are and you protected that twenty percent time you could be taking courses,

you could be learning something. And it's a substantial enough amount of time

that you know you keep doing twenty percent time for a while. It can actually

get kind of good at something. and this, this is what enables you to be ready

for anything to develop a side skill. That should you need it, or if it proves

relevant, could actually be really quite valuable to your professional future

in ways you can't imagine.

yeah, I mean, when we spoke last time you talk, you gave me a really good

analogy and this helped me visualize multiple revenue streams. Uh, much

differently than just simply the appeal of adding these things up and being

some sort of millionaire. It was more of you know, you gave me a stool

analogy. Like what's a bar stool with one leg? and I was like Okay, Production

can't be it. So now like here, we are in different phases Now it's like Okay,

Yes, speaking, okay. Now it's like potcast production, and now I, I have to

say, and you said this, I believe as well that it's almost safer to be in an

entrepreneurial uh venture because if you are able to compile those multiple

streams of income, you're almost safer than if you were laid off at whatever

number one place you were relying on all your income. For

now, there's a uh. thinking in waves. You already kind of mentioned it, but

this is one of my very favorite parts, and I ive,

by the way, everyone like she practices all these things as well, but their

anecdotes of actual people in here. I think a grandmother who became a d, ▁j,

an executive coach who went to learn about. You know how to free style and all

kinds of people who have became a little bit more interesting by applying some

of these principles so you could believe that, but heads up and heads down

this framework and I think this, this is probably going to be one of the

biggest parts of the interview. But please talk to me about how we can operate

in the heads up heads down framework.

Yeah, thank you, rich. Well, the heads up in Heads down is something that first

came to my attention. This framework, when I was doing the interviews for

Entrepreneurial you, my previous book and I was speaking to a guy name Gered

Kleiner, who's a young entrepreneur and he was alluding to, you know, Bla, blah

blah blah. heads up and heads down, Moad. I'm like wait, wait, you know. tell

me more. Tell me war. What you? what you mean by that? and what I learned from

him, I thought was was really quite powerful because we all know. right. Um,

there, there are people who tend to skew one way or another. Often. A lot of

entrepreneurs especially tend to be really heads up people like shiny object.

Oh, I could do that. Oh, I could meet this person. Oh, I could try this thing.

Yeah,

it is. I mean it's great because you know you're You're an excited person.

You're excited about life. That's wonderful, and also we recognize that after a

while it can be bad because

Yes, Yes,

if you keep shifting focus, you're not actually doing the thing. so similarly,

uh, on the other side of the spectrum there there are people who are constantly

in heads down mode. All they do is execute. All they do is orgta got their St.

and' got to answer the message. Got to keep going. And you know that's

wonderful as well. They're getting a lot of stuff done. The big question

though, is are they getting the right things done? They don't even know,

because they haven't reevaluated it in six years or whatever it is. And so you

really have to have. both. This goes back to the the thinking in waves. Uh,

point of view, We need

to be effective at learning to toggle between modes. That is how we're

successful and so we need both heads up mode in order to pick the strategy that

is the best and the most viable for us, and heads down so we can go get it

done.

when, and I can't remember where I wrote it, but I was thinking about it.

there. There's a part in here where I wrote in big bold letters.

I've been doing this for six years. What if you are that person who has

realized I've been in execution mode the whole time, but I'

I was this person for a couple of years, but not long, but I was climbing a

corpor ladder. I didn't want to climber. Maybe I've been heads up and I've

been somehow able to just maintain this business off the thinnest of margins,

But I've been doing courses and all these different things. What happens at

that moment that epiphany where you realze? Wow,

I've I've probably canceleded out everything by the lack of paying attention

to the other. How would you try and get that rhythm uh to or how to try and

like fix that that rhythm of of doing things justly the wrong way.

Yeah, well, you know, I would say. First of all, I do believe that every person

needs to have both skills. However, um, I, we should accept that some people

are just going to be better at some, or more naturally drawn to some than

others. And so if you are an entrepreneur and you actually have a a business,

then one way that you can help mitigate against this is you know. Okay, you're

the visionary C. E, O. fantastic, Just make sure really fast that you have an

operations driven C o O, Who can help compensate? And if if you, if you are

operating where it's like Okay, the two halves of the brain come together good,

then at least institutionally at least organizationally you're able to meet

both of those needs, and that's really powerful. It's not to say that you get a

pass that

Yes,

like, Oh, you never have to implement anything, but it means that, Uh that the

situation

largely can take care of itself, but I, I think you know the biggest thing.

this is. this is. this is like, Uh, every piece of life wisdom right. it's like

it's like the old proverb The best time to plan a tree was twenty years ago.

the next best time is today, so we can't dwell that much. I'm like, Oh, my God,

I should have been doing this. I should have been doing that well. Yeah, you

should have been fossing too. okay,

yeah, oh yeah,

but but we could start today and we have the power to do that And and that is

that is important because twenty years from now future you will be thanking

you.

yes. I, I agree. So in strategic leverage, Um, this is still work. kind of

still in the focus where accounts. now you have a recognized expert community.

Um, you know you have standing out. you have entrepreneurial you. There's a

lot of what you do that really kind of allows people to determine the manners

in which to become an expert. Now if no one has ever heard of you or come

across you in my audience yet, I want to read to them about what you talk

about here, which is the three components of becoming a recognized expert in

your field, And it's content creation. Hello, a love, content creation, Uh,

social proof and networking, Um, I want to touch on the first two for sure,

but networking is going to be very interesting because. Um, you know, it's

just so slimy and gross and sleezy, and you really make some fantastic points

in there. But can you talk to me about the importance of content creation and

the social proof?

I can. Absolutely so as you are alluding to rich, over the past decade, Ive

spent a lot of time really researching the concept of what it takes to become a

recognized expert, whether it's in your company or in your field, And there's

these three components to it and they are very much interrelated. They, they fe

on each other, And so content creation is basically sharing your ideas

publicly, and this becomes so powerful because you know for for almost all of

us. If if you are good at what you do, the people who work with you know that

ya. that's great. but how many people work with you? I mean, probably not that

many. right like a few.

and it becomes very hard for the world to know that, And so content creation is

really useful because it gives other people who have not literally worked with

you directly the opportunity to see what you like to test, drive you to say,

Oh, I really like his ideas, or Oh, she seems really smart. Wow, I really

resonate with that and it makes it easier for your name and your message

spread. and it de risks the equation for people who want to do business with

you, so conation doesn't matter. Could be video. it could be podcast. It could

be articles. it could be speeches. There's a lot of ways, but it's about

getting your ideas out there. Number two, Yeah, please,

Can I think one thing on that really quick. I'm so sorry. this is why I always

talk about contentration. This is not me pitching my business or anything like

that, but if when she talks about when dorry talks about reducing the risk,

and I guess I should just talk to you when reducing the risk is is part of it,

but I also feel the. The, The more people listen to this podcast or see any of

your content or my content, then they truly do believe they. They got to know

you, and if time ever comes where they've read your books, and then they get

to meet you then, and they to see exactly what you are like in person, then

it's a refreshing experience that she is this authentic. This is how she

operates and it is not for show, so content creation and personal branding. I

believe there has to be an element of vulnerability there, which is funny

things in this book that you talk about, and and I love it in the failure

section, But that really allows people to not have to imagine or wonder what

it is actually like to interact with you, to learn from you, to network with

you to have a conversation with you. And I think that is one of the most

undersold things about content creation. Get your message out. It's not who

you know who knows you. Sorry, let's get the social proof.

yes, Amen, aend, all of that rich. That's exactly right, and then social proof

is is basically. What is the Te? The credibility that you are telegraphing to

others? We have to recognize that other people are super busy. Just you know,

just like we are, and it is

a lot easier if they are not familiar with you. If they haven't heard of you.

It's a lot easier for them just to ignore you, as compared to saying. Oh, well,

let me take this person and I will do a comprehensive search to evaluate his

credentials, like we just don't have the time. So it's a lot easier to say

whatever, whatever, And so we need to veryary quickly. You know, if we're

getting in the mind of our prospects or the people we want to reach, we need to

very quickly show them like, sort of wave a flag, and be like No, this person's

credible. You should really listen to them and so one of the best ways to do

that is to have uh, to attach yourself to brand affiliations that they are

already familiar with, So it could be. Oh, well, you know, rich rich' business

has served clients. you know, A and b and c and d, and. Oh, my gosh, I've heard

of A and b and C and D. That makes a big difference. If he's good enough for

them. he's good enough for me, Or it could be you know that you've been

featured in you know, ▁x y and ▁z publications, And Oh my gosh, I read those

publications. Those are the kinds of markers of credibility that that people

can say. Oh, okay, I guess this person's legit. I guess I should at least pay

attention for a minute to see what they have to say.

I have to ask You are the person, as you are very well published for Hbr. You

teach Duke, mean you. I mean your top fifty thinker.

Okay, but Dory, you can pay to be in Forbes. you can pay to be Yahoo Top

Voice.

You can pay for people to submit you as someone who should get this award. And

I have a client who made a post about this Thiss when we feel bless is

amazing. But can we really talk about the social proof there that the people

who don't know you know that there is a pay to play game out there and there

is people who do things like that and other people like you?

Yeah, yeah, I think I think you're raising a a really good point. I mean, uh, a

number of years ago Forbes was sold and since then they have become the leaders

in, you know, kind of tarding themselves up. Lets be honest. and uh they.

They're the leaders mazzle, but uh, just about every other publication is not

far behind.

Yeah,

Uh, not not Harvard Business Review. To their credit,

yes,

Uh, but many other publications. Uh, allow these sort of you know, Pay to Play

contributors. You know. it's sort of the you know Special Forum Special voices,

Uh, whatever, and you can write for those publications and say, Oh, I'm a

contributor to Ex publication and you're doing it for you know, three grand a

year, or what? have you as part of the different membership packages And I

agree, I think. Uh, I think that it is

well, I understand that as a former journalist who was laid off as a

journalist. Uh, while I understand that news outlets need to come up with new

methods of monetization. I find this to be really disreputable and uh, it's

it's not. It's not something that I that I wish they would do at all. I think

that it helps hasten the slide from. Uh, you know I, in people's skepticism

about, you know, Oh, you know fake news. Well, it doesn't help if Uh, if an

institution that used to employ uh, professional journalists and or

contributors that have been tightly vetted for their qualifications has now

opened up the the doors. so you know to to just about anybody with a pay

cheeck. Now

yeah, yeah, sorry.

all that being said, Uh, I would say that that on an individual level it

becomes that much more important for all of us to uh to to really understand

and be aware of that market. Uh, you know the market place and how it plays out

and to know which credentials are the ones that that matter, Because Y you want

ideally to be credible to the discerning people who do understand the market

place. Y, you know you don't want to be the person that's touting the kind of

uh, cheap credentials that everybody knows that sort of like. Oh, right, Yeah,

and then you bought it Now there's plenty of people. Um, there are

there are. Um, you know, for these publications, you know, I have many friends

who are writing for Forbes. They are not part of the paid Uh system. They are

legitimately a contributor. and uh, you know those are

I. I think you know that that still is matters and is great, but it's just

useful to be aware of the landscape, to be aware of public perceptions and to

understand, Uh that we need to

constantly be leveling up in terms of what we're doing because some of these

publications over time are going to diminish their own reputations through this

practice.

I. I completely agree and and I had to bring it up only because um, I, I know

I, I've seen a lot of posts on Social and Lincoln, where hey, check out my

article and this or or whatever, and I, I've been to plenty of websites of

people that I see all the logos at the bottom. but I'm like something doesn't

add up here because the content I'm seeing does not demonstrate expertise

where I'm not seeing any video testimonials or I'm not seeing ▁x y, and ▁z,

and I believe. Uh, the one thing I really hinge on for a lot of my clients

that social proof. Um, And and a friend of my Denis. U always talks about this

is like Have have a bucket and your Google Driver dropbox, with screen shots

of all your podcast reviews. You know all your video testimonials, All

anything anyone has actually said about you Because I believe that carries a

lot of weight. Um, and and sometimes when you put that against, Oh, you know,

featured in or worked with is just kind of like Okay, And you and I had a

conversation about this while ago and I had to redo something so I didn't give

off the wrong vibe And I'm glad we had that conversation Now. I want to get

into networking the last kind of piece of the puzzle here, and it is

fascinating the first part. Now, networking is broken into three parts. That

you break it into three parts, but short term networking is the first and the

very first thing I was laughingcause. You said No, asks for a year. Please

talk to us about that

Yeah, absolutely rich. So I have a philosophy which I share in the long game

and I, this is. This is what I follow. I actually think, uh, that you know

other other people might find it helpful as well, because for me, one of the

most dangerous aspects of networking is if you are connecting with someone, and

if you are doing it in earnest, and if that person is kind of a high profile

person,

it is not unlikely that they are deluged with asks from a lot of takers from a

lot of people that want things from them. It is really important for the long

term success of your connection that you not be viewed as one of those people.

Mhm.

and so

I think one of the best ways that you can just totally steer clear of it like,

Don't don't let them think that, And don't you even get it into the

subconscious recesses of your head to go there is just to say No, asks for a

year that way. By the time you do potentially ask for something in the future,

you will actually legitimately be friends with that person and then it's not

some weird. ask. then it's it's just something that friends do for each other.

But you know we've all experienced this if you meet someone and then like two

days later that you know they've They've apparently spent the past forty eight

hours going through your linked in feed and being like, Oh, I see you know so

and so. can you introduce

Yes,

us? You're just like. Oh God, okay, I didn't really think that was what you

were after, but now I understand and you're really never going to trust that

person again.

which feeds into long term relationships, which is basically what you're

talking about, but that kind of second hehelon of networking. Can you talk

about that a little bit?

Yeah, so in the long game, I pauseit that there's there's really three

different types of relationships in networking. One is short term, asks, which

is uh, you know, or short term networking, which is the kind that gives

everything a bad name. This is like, you know the the person who wants the

thing and they want the thing now, and we're all grossed out by it. The second

is long term relationships, and these are connections. These are the

connections that kind of make sense. ▁quote unquote. These are relationships

with people in your field where you're like. You know. that'd be good to get to

know like I don't know specifically. what. I would you know? what what I would

want out of it. ▁quote unquote. Because especially you're doing. No asks for a

year. So like who knows?

Yeah,

But, but there're people in your in your field in your orbit. They're doing

cool things and you're like, Yeah, you know that that could just be helpful.

That could be a good relationship. I like their vibe like let's get to know

each other. It's a great way to network. It makes a lot of sense, and then the

third kind that I feel like is, is kind of the wild card of networking, but

often where you can really, uh, get some cool surprises that are worthwhile is

what I call Infinite Horizon networking. And this is the kind that a lot of

people, a lot of professionals that are maybe more directed by what is useful.

What should I be doing? They're not going to do this because Infinite Horizon

networking is with people that honestly, there's no reason you should be

talking to them. They're kind of random. They're in a different field that you

know. They're just like they're They're doing weird things. It's not like. Oh,

well, I'm in a real estate and she's in real estate. It's you know. No, it's

like Oh, and they're an astronaut and you know I run a dog training school like

you know. It's just very, very different on the surface. people might say.

Well, that's a waste of time. that's not relevant and I want to say that's

exactly why you should connect with those people

yes,

because number one life is long. You never know where it's going to go. Um,

your worlds might converge in interesting ways. Number two, your world might

even change because of that person,

yes,

so they could teach you a lot of interesting things. and number three never

hurts to have interesting friends. So I, I'm a fan of Infinite Horizon

networking. I feel like it's under utilized and I would encourage people to

think more about it.

dorry. If I went to Uh podcast movement recently in Nashville and I hadn't

been to a conference in quite some time, and conferences give me just the

wrong vibes. Sometimes it's just a little bi. It's kind of like going to

Vegas. There' a lot of stimulation. There's a lot of hallway talk and people

like have a strategy for hallway talk and there's people collecting business

cards. There's people trying to sell you, and there's people who who literally

just go to networking, and if you aren't listening to any of the keynoes or

the M. Cs. they are going to say like Yes, we're teaching you all these

things, but the real good stuff is networking in the people. How do you

delineate between kind of purposeful networking with others in in your

industry, or just people that might be an asset to you With just trying to

just meet people and have a good time, and in just just ingest the information

that you require and not really having to go after any relationships.

Yeah, well, I've certainly been there rich. I mean there's there's a lot of

conferences that that I go to as well where there's a lot of cool people, and

there may even be some, you know. ▁quote unquote celebrities in the room that

everybody wants to meet. And uh, you know, some of them are literal celebrities

and some of them are just kind of you know industry celebrities.

Yep,

But but nonetheless you know, there's there's always these like hierarchies

around. and at first when I would go to the conferences I would. I'd be so

deliberate and specific. I'd be like, Oh my God, I have to meet this person in

yes, yes,

this person and it was like I made an agenda for myself and after a while I

just realized like Okay, First of all, that's exhausting

y,

and second of all I you. I didn't want to be uh again. You know you have to.

You have to really just stop yourself and be like. Okay, How do I want to be

here And I didn't want to be the person that was like. So. Oh my God, I have to

meet this person that you're like constantly craning your neck like. Is he

here? now?

no,

How about now?

y, y.

And so what? I? what I settled on is, I would triage at a given conference. You

know, maybe two or three people that I was like. I, I would feel sad if I left

the conference if I didn't meet this person and then for those people I would

come up with a a more precise strategy like Okay, I'm definitely going to go to

their talk and usually the best strategy is to is to grab them before the talk

because they get mobbed after the talk, But you know whatever it is, I would

try to find a way that I could at least say hi to those people, but for

everything else I just I just let it go and I'm like all. Right, I'm just going

to have a good time. I'm going to meet people. I'm going to see where the

moment takes me, and I'm not going to get too worried or wrapped up in it.

Because if you have a list of twenty five people that you must meet, Um, you

are going to be running yourself ragged. and uh, it's it's not. It's not going

to really be a good outcome at the end,

yeah, I think. Um, kind of the infinite. Uh, I'm sorry, the infinite horizon.

Infinite horizon. Yes,

I believe Yes,

I. I feel like

that, unn. unbknown to me, that kind of strategy and that just um, curiosity

of meeting interesting people that have nothing to do with anything I know.

sometimes like opens these channels in my mind that are just kind of exciting

and new and refreshing and I don't know anything about it, So I, I don't feel

weird asking deeper questions. It. It's clearly out of curiosity or just being

naive to what it is, and many of those have turned into just fascinating

relationships which you talk about how you collected. You know, uh, how you

started dinners and things like that and connecting with people when you were

alone in New York. And and it's just interesting that when sometimes you don't

have to be purposeful for something to become valuable. Uh, and and I think

that' that's a really good. Uh way now, I want to talk about failure,

rethinking failure, which this is. probably Um. You know, one of the most

important takeways from the book you have. Uh, I don't want to say a litany.

but you have a pretty good list here of things that did not work out in your

favor And it' funny every paragraph I didn't pick up on until the last one. By

the way, I was like, wait a second. This didn't work out. Uh, the talk and the

list and all these different things. I was like what is happening and I felt

almost bad. Uh, but I already know you, so I knew things were fantastic, but

you had. I would say. Um, you know, uh, uh, sequential losses until something

kind of worked out in your favor, but enduring them was pretty painful and a

long and long term thinking and a long term approach is what actually kind of

probably manifested this last success, which is something you not desperately

wanted something you really wanted which was to be a top thinker. Can you talk

about rethinking failure and how some of those failures shaped your success?

Yeah, thank you, rich. And so you know what you're referring to is in the long

game. I have a a chapter where I talk. I basically break down my. my twenty

nineteen. Uh, So this is this is pre coveed, Um, and I had a number of

aspirations for the year. Uh, I, I started the ear and I had these five goals

and it was it was. Things like you know, writing a book with a you know, co,

authoring a book with a big author, or Um, getting to a write to get get the

musical rights and be able to create a musical based on my favorite movie and

giving a big talk at a big conference. All these different kinds of things and

they were all attainable goals. They were big goals. There were stretch goals,

but they were all attainable. I mean, the author said yes, that he. he'd do the

book with me. I, you know, the Um, the director of my favorite movie, said Yes,

that he would let me adapt the musical. I was uh, pitching to. Um. I, actually,

well, I got approached by a major media outlet about becoming a regular

columnist. And you know, they were coming to me and asking me to try out. And

you know, So there, there were big things, but I, it was not. It was not like

crazy, like I'm goingnna, join the N. B. A. They all really could have

happened, but then

over the course of the year, over the course of twenty nineteen, literally

every single one blew up for different reasons, you know, the the M media

outlet decided. No, sorry. we're going to go with somebody else. The uh, the

movie director like we went for months down this garden path, my collaborator

and I were. even. You know. we, we had started writing music. We come up with

an outline Wed come up with song themes and then finally he said, Yeah, I'm

sorry, I think I want to do a play, not a musical and I'm like Ah, you know all

these different things, but um, you know, the the famous author got a million

dollar book advance, Uh to do a project with somebody else. I mean, I'm not

going to begrudge him that, but like you know,

Yeah, yes, yeah, you are like. I understand. See you.

Yeah, yeah, exactly,

but anyway, uh it was. It was a lot of things in a row where I was just like.

Oh, come on, like, why

Yeah,

are these not working out, and so literally up to the end of the year in late

November. Finally, the last, the last goal that you were referring to, there's

this organization called Thinker's fifty and they do a ranking of biennial

ranking of the world's top fifty business thinkers And I made it onto the list,

which was very exciting for the first time, was named one of the one of the

world's top fifty business thinkers and that was really great. Uh, but yeah,

over the course you are four out of five of these big goals completely tanked

and during that time it really, it really can be depressing

Mhm,

right. One of the things that I say in the long game is that when you are

in that that stretch between wanting to do do something you know like O,

articulating your goal and then actually achieving your goal, it's basically

like you're going through a tunnel and in that dark tunnel it is almost

impossible in the mo moment to tell the difference between something that is

not working and something that is not working yet,

Yes,

and that can be very existentially hard to deal with.

so

let me ask this.

you. Could you could? these were accomplishable. These. These are things that

absolutely can happen. These were not, you know, Big Harry, Audacious goals

per se, like you said, they were doable. How much more did it sting when they

didn't happen, Because I think for for people like us, who are maybe used to

productivity and and used to kind of surging, and at least you know,

incrementally just getting better and better in our crafts, especially the one

where you had to submit wting samples and it didn't work out. That was

hilarious to me because I was like. How did that not work out? This is

ridiculous.

If it's something you know you can do and it still does not work out. It

probably hurts more. How do you make amends with that?

Yeah, I think I think in a lot of ways, honestly,

I. I just reverted back to understanding that a lot of life is random right

Like especially this. This is really a key point. Rich. A lot of goals have

some kind of gate keeper attached to them and the part that we can control is

our process. You know, Did I submit the best writing samples? I could. well, I,

I, I really tried. I. I, you know, Went over the million times I edited them, I

polished them up. I felt good about what I could do. what I couldn't control.

Was the guy on the other end reading them who said We want something a little

more irreverent

like. I just really can't do anything about that.

Yes,

They ended up. They ended up bringing in somebody else who like wasn't wasn't

even a business writer. You know, they, they like they really wanted somebody.

They were not joking about an irreverent voice. They w, they wanted somebody

who is like, Um, you know, basically making fun of people. So, uh, so yeah, I,

I realized like Okay, I can take it personally to a certain extent like it's

just it's you know. It's slightly insulting that they made me jump through

these hoops and then they're like Yeah, No, but also they really were looking

for something else. I mean, it's like you can't get that mad if whatever you

know, you want to date someone and they're like I only date redheads and you're

like Well, but, but

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

you know like I just I can't change that. So, ▁ultimately, Um,

I think the main thing is number one to ensure that we are not prematurely

handing our power over to outsiders. So often I see smart good people get

discouraged and sometimes even stop doing. You know what they're doing because

they are like. Oh, but you know they turned it down. Well, one person turned it

down. One person turning something down does not mean in any way that it is not

good. Fine, a hundred people turn it down. Okay, I might believe you, but one

person, two people that is literally statistically random chance and

we, we cannot accept that. Uh, so I just kept trying to remind myself of that

y, yes.

that there are statistical flukes You know we're talking about like head

flipping.

yep,

And okay, this guy didn't like it. Okay. Well, this guy got you know a book

deal and Ah, this guy wants to do a play. Okay,

y.

I mean

doesn't it doesn't mean my stuff isn't good.

doesn't it doesn't mean my stuff isn't good.

yeah. I. I forget who. Uh, I. I think it was Patrick pet David. Who goes? We

get rejected every daycause. people don't read your email. People unsubscribe

from your emails. I mean, it happens more often than we think. And and once I

had that kind of context I, I kind of default to what you're kind of thinking

of. Okay, this is someone's decision, not the universe decision. Per se, um,

the last question I want to ask. Uh, before uh, we close here is

a really tough question. And, but I think it's really important and it is when

you are in that tunnel like you said when you can't tell you know whether

you're making progress or not. When do you know if it's time to actually?

▁quit?

Yeah, so there's a few things to keep in mind. One of the most important is

that in that tunnel

you almost can't trust yourself anymore.

so true,

be 'cause you just have to realize that like your judgment's a little bit shot,

and it it tends to go one way or another. Um, uh, oftentimes it, it goes in

both directions at different times. One way is you get so frustrated you say.

Oh, this is never going to work. This is this is terrible. I need to ▁quit that

you know this well. If it hasn't worked by now, it'll never work and you get

really depressed. The other way is that you're like clinging to the life raft.

You're like. No, No, of course, I'm not going to give this up. I'm just like

two feet away from success and the pot of gold, And you know just you know,

like just have a little more time if I just have a little more money into it.

And uh, and you get a little a little deranged in that direction, so I think

that one of the things we need to do is actually in advance,

create a group of people you know, sort of a mentor board of directors around

yes, yes,

you who you trust, And you know you really say okay. I trust A that these

people care about me and be that these people actually know what they're doing.

yes,

That, it's not just like somebody who thinks Oh rich is great and it's like you

know your mom, but somebody who understands the industry and understands how

things work in that industry. I mean, you know, apologies to your mom if she in

fact is a podcaster, But

no, no,

but yes, so like it, You know just people who are who are around you who are

able to be rational voices when we are not rational

yes,

and they are able to help guide you and say no, no, no, this. this really seems

promising you're on to something or. And maybe time to to piv it a little bit.

That's number one number two. We'll just say briefly Is I have a concept in the

long game that talk about called Looking for the raind drops. And what this

refers to is that you know we're always kind of fixated a little bit on like

the big wind, like you know, the all the big thunder storm, And you know it's

just it's just you know, Raining money and reigining success. And you know when

there's a thunderstorm right, you're going to notice it.

y,

But the the thing with thunderstorms is number one. They take a while to build,

and number two, they very rarely come out of nowhere. Usually there are raind

drops beforehand and

a lot of people just ignore them or they they. they. They don't notice them. We

need to start noticing the raind dropps, the small signs of success along the

way. That might seem very very subtle, but if we look for them we could say,

Oh, oh, look, you know, okay, I only have a hundred people listening to my

podcast. Well, all right, but last month only fifty people were listening. My

podcast is doubled in a month.

yes, yes,

right. That's actually, that's that's a positive sign.

Mhm.

And if you just fixate on the ▁quote, unquote bad news that you're not yet. Uh,

you know Oprah Winf, your Tim Ferris, then, uh, sure, you're going to ▁quit.

But if you say Oh, wait a minute. Well, let's let's ride this out. if my

podcast audience keeps doubling, Uh, that could be pretty good pretty fast so

y.

let's let's see how this goes.

absolutely. and for anyone who does podcast out there, I've been at that place

and I wish I could have realized this. back then I would do anything to talk

to a room full of a hundred people. But think of it as if you are in person

because you have the eyeballs on you. These people are choosing to listen to

you, so don't take it for granted. The numbers will get better. Do what I

wanted to do is tell the audience here. Not Obviously they could find a book

on Amazon. Where else can they find you

Thank you so much. Rich. Well, the book again. It's uh, the long game, How to

be a long term thinker in a short term world, and uh, yes, the they can check

it out on Amazon and other places that books are sold, and for folks who are

interested in these concepts and want to apply them to their own life and

become a more strategic thinker. We have the free long game, Strategic thinking

self assessment, and folks can get it for free at Dorry Clark, Dot com, Slash

the long game.

perfect? Uh, so this is what I'm going to do. I've known Dory for years now. I

met Dorry when I was on my way out of the Marine Corp and I thought everything

was going to be okay And then it turned out to be this viseral disorienting

experience and we have managed to stay in touch. Uh, and ha, meet each other

beyond Podcast and all these great things. So what I want to do, because I, I

really truly support Dorian in the highest capacity is. If you go ahead and

leave a review of this episode on the Leadership locker, I will send you a

copy of the long game. Uh, you could email me a screen shot and I will get it

to you. I promise you, Uh that if you are someone who I say, this podcasts for

Inspiring entrepreneur, a seasoned entrepreneur who who really has those

doubtful moments and needs to remind themselves that nothing happens. Ah, this

is a microwave society. We want everything done pretty quickly. Uh, this book

is going to help you realign and and and get focused on the long game, So

definitely keep an eye out for that and dorry. Thank you so much,

Rich. Thanks, great to be here.