In this episode, host Dal Banwait brings us an enlightening conversation deeply rooted in personal experiences and cultural contexts.

Dal chats with Mandish Kaur Khebbal, a former MTV TV producer. Mandish reflects on her journey as a second-generation British Indian woman who has traversed and navigated her way through life to follow the career of her dreams, while holding onto her roots and identity. 

The episode delves into the immigrant experience focusing on the cultural conflicts and the weight of cultural expectations, the struggles, and pressures second-generation Indians face when growing up in a Western society. 

This topic of discussion further expands with detailed stories of significant identity shaping experiences like Diwali, family bonds, family networks, and other cultural practices. 

Throughout the podcast, Dal emphasizes the importance of understanding and maintaining respect for diverse beliefs and traditions and that you can be a 'good brown girl' whilst pursuing a career and life on your own terms. The discussion also touches upon the challenges encountered by Mandish in her ground breaking career in television as a young Indian woman and the integral role that freedom of choice plays in shaping a happy life. 

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Welcome to Doing It On Purpose, your shortcut to reinventing yourself

with a few giggles along the way, for all good brown girls and beyond.

I'm Dal, aka The Happiologist, your host, and after 20 years of

a lot of work, I've finally bossed this reinventing myself thing.

As a self proclaimed good brown girl, I've uncovered well being

secrets from my global travels.

And I'm saving you a few decades of work and sharing practical

tips for your own reinvention and to help you find your purpose.

And I'll be joined by some seriously smart, good brown girls

from the field of psychology, therapy, health and well being.

So if you're ready for a life upgrade, stay tuned.

And don't forget to follow The Happiologist on social media for

your daily dose of happy habits.

I'm Dal, The Happiologist, and I am doing this on purpose.

So hi everyone, welcome to my podcast and thanks so much for joining us.

Just a quick reminder why I do these podcasts, if I can reassure at least

one person on their self discovery journey after this podcast, then that's

my best gift that I could wish for.

So thank you for joining.

So without further ado, let me introduce you to Mandish Korkabao.

So Mandish was born a second generation British Indian like myself

in the 70s, and I've been blessed to know Mandish since childhood.

We were both born in Coventry and that makes her my sister, of course.

So Mandish is a phenomenal artist and had a 30 plus year career in mainstream

television, producing the likes of MTV and various daytime TV shows.

One of the shows she won a BAFTA for, which was amazing.

And she rubbed shoulders with the likes of Madonna and JLo to name a few.

She hates to admit that.

Sorry, Mandish.

So through all this, she is a dedicated daughter, wife, best friend, mum of two

wonderful boys, and one of the most.

Interesting and creative people I know.

So today we're going to talk about the really important topic of being a good

brown girl in the context of culture, career and societal expectations.

So welcome Mandish to my confession room.

What a career!

Hi, that's a hell of an intro.

I love the fact that you found your courage, you know, in spite

of a really strict upbringing, doing the career that you really

want and lots of things actually but still being a good brown girl.

So I'm really keen to delve in and understand firstly, you know, what it

was like being born in a kind of second generation British Indian house in the

seventies with both immigrant parents.

So, you know, your own parents and grandparents.

So I really want to start with dual heritage, you know, was it a huge

balancing act, you know, certainly was for me as we grew up, that

sense of finding belonging and self identity at home and at school.

So, you know this, we were dealing with so much - racism was rife

back then and other forms and.

You know, discrimination.

So how did you navigate all that?

You know, as you grew up?

Well, according to my father, who I spoke to this morning he said I was

a very moody child because, because, you know, when you have strict Indian parents,

you don't talk back, you don't argue, you're not, you know, all those things are

seen to be disrespectful in our culture.

So apparently I was very moody, but you know, we all learned English

from television, you know, at home we spoke our mother tongue.

So I found those things hard at school when I didn't know

the right words for things.

And you know, people did laugh at you, but you got over it.

And you got through it.

I mean, I remember the first time going to secondary school.

No primary school.

I came home.

My parents were like, what?

What?

What was it like?

I was like, the food's really bland.

Food's so bland..

What?

You did n't carry Tabasco sauce around with you like I do?

No, I know you still do that, don't you?

? No, and, and I remember saying, you know, the food's bland and

one day they served this curry.

And it had, I think now, looking back, it probably had spaghetti

hoops and vegetables and people looking at me saying I hate curry.

You know, or when they're talking about India, about it being

uncivilized, you know, I had people say, what's it like to wear clothes?

And you're like, what is wrong with you?

You know, we weren't like that.

But the problem is, because our parents were working so hard to give us, you know,

a good start in life, a great education, they didn't explain, they didn't have

time to explain to us about the history of India, you know, and what they fought for.

And, you know, and I remember, you know, when we were young, I knew we didn't

have a lot of money, but our House didn't have any ornaments and I remember my

father said to me, but you know what they could send us back Wow, and that

was always in the back of his mind Yeah, I mean he's going to be 80 and he's

finally over it But he's still there's something about him if he likes something

he admires it, but he'll never buy it

It's interesting that point you say around you know never feeling

secure, they could send us back.

It's interesting because I look at my own parents and they've

still got land in India because I always say, well, you never know.

You never know.

Yeah.

You never know.

But I'm British, right?

Yeah.

But you know, look what happened in Kenya when they kicked all

the, you know, Indian people out.

So, you know, they had examples too.

And also, you know, there was, you know, horrible things here, like paki bashing.

You know, where you'd go out and beat up Indian people.

I had, when I was younger, I was walking home from school and we had,

when I was at secondary school, and we had protests outside the school.

So that was still, you know, early eighties and it was skinheads.

And I had to take the, I remember I had to take the long route home and I was

pushed into the canal, Coventry canal.

And I remember holding onto the wall and scraping up the side and I was

too embarrassed or too mortified to tell my parents what happened.

And I told them that I was pushed into a pool instead.

And I think I was 47 when I finally got back in the water again to learn to swim.

And I'd completely forgotten what had happened.

I'd actually convinced myself it was a pool.

And I had this strange thing, even now in my 50s, where when I'm

swimming I have to touch the side, a solid wall, before I stand up again.

You know, so, you know, racism was rife.

It was right, and it was in the open, and I think, you know, then it kind of went

behind closed doors and people were more accepting, and also I think cultures mixed

more, but now with Brexit, you know, it's rife again, and it's, you know, it is sad.

It's sad - it's that whole sense of I mean, I don't know if

you, you got this a lot, but I got a lot of Go back to your own country.

And I used to think, this is my country.

This is my country.

'cause I hadn't been to, I hadn't been to India until I was thinking

I was 26 for the first time.

So you know, that's such a lazy insult.

Mm.

It's so lazy.

You know, people need to come up with something better.

, it's such, it's such a easy thing to say, go back to where you came from.

I just think it's a really lazy insult.

And also, you know.

Our country, our old sort of country or our hometown, you're sending us

to, was your country that you pillaged and now we're here to do the same.

I have said that to a few people.

I'm sure.

You know, one of the things I was interested to talk to you about because,

you know, we're similar ages as well.

It's like kind of navigating.

We were the first.

I suppose, you know, our parents were immigrants first gen, but for us, we

were the kind of guinea pigs, right?

Trying to find our way around the world, because they had their community,

so they could stick together, you know, our Asian parents could stick

together, you know, certainly my uncles and aunties all lived in one house.

I think everybody did in the old days, you, you, you know,

my greatest love growing up was when I lived away from the extended

family on the other side of Coventry.

But my mother missed her family and we literally, you know, my father still has

the house, my uncle lives at the bottom of the road, another couple of uncles around

the corner, a few more at the top of the road and everyone's in a 15 minute walk.

Which is great, but you then, you don't move on as a

society, as a group of people.

You cling on to your old culture.

And I remember when my mother went back to India, she said, I can't believe

how things have changed and people are more modern and they go out and

they do things, you know, whereas our parents held on to that old culture,

thinking that's what India would be like.

And they thought that would be the respectful thing to do.

But everyone moved on.

You know, I always remember sort of saying to my friends when

they would go can you come out?

You're like, no.

Will you ask your parents?

No, there's no point.

You know, it's not worth the argument.

And we never went out.

And I always remember my mother saying Unless you went to a day timer.

Oh, I never went to a day timer, that was you.

That's a whole separate podcast.

But it was, yeah, that's a different one.

Wow, they're still on, day times are back on now, which is quite funny, but yeah,

that's where the day time party came from.

You could say you were at school, you went to a party to be social and

mingle, but you know, our parents didn't want us to mingle, they all

wanted us to have an arranged marriage.

So we weren't allowed to leave the house.

I remember going to university in Bristol.

And I went back home for the summer, and I said to my mum, I'm just popping out.

She was like, I don't think so.

And I was like, you're kidding me.

I'm 19.

And she went, yeah, you're back home, you act, you're under our

control, you act the way you used to.

This isn't Bristol.

And I was 19, 20, 21, I remember leaving the house for the first time

without kicking off about anything.

So, you know, at university I was doing, I could go anywhere, do everything,

cook for myself, feed myself.

And then, come back home to Coventry, it's like, you're not going anywhere.

And that's tough, right?

That was tough.

That's so tough.

I think that, yeah, so one of the things I find, you know, when I look back is,

and how we must have struggled with this, is our parents, like I said, had

the communities, but we had to go out into the world, right, as youngsters,

and face all this racism, build these communities of, you know You know, white

and Indian, and it was just so conflicting because, you know, all to an extent, I

always say to my parents, it was kind of all right for you because, you know,

you you had one another, so you didn't, you didn't get exposed to as much, even

in the foundries I used to work, you know, my dad was a, you know, a postman.

You know, and he still had his little community, but I guess we were the

guinea pigs that had to go out and actually build this kind of British

Indian lifestyle, which was tough, right?

So I guess, you know, how did you, especially as a youngster kind

of, how did you navigate all that?

How did you find your identity as an Indian and, and you're in, you know,

your identity as a, you know, Westerner.

By making lots and lots and lots of mistakes.

No, but it's true.

I didn't know how to talk to people properly.

I didn't know how to, excuse me, socialize.

You know, it, you know, you panic, you drink, especially as a student.

I remember the first, first month I was at.

art college.

We had to call an ambulance because an Indian girl drank so much she collapsed.

Wow.

Because she'd had such a strict upbringing and she'd never tasted alcohol before.

And, you know, as awful as it was for her, it was a good

lesson for me of what not to do.

And it is hard building relationships and trying to explain to people that,

no, I haven't been to the theatre because I wasn't allowed to leave the house.

You know, and people find that nuts and they were like, but why

come here when you're going to act, you know, the old traditions?

And I was like, because you generally leave your house, apart from food

shopping and necessities, to find somebody of the opposite sex or

somebody of the same sex, you know.

Someone to love, someone to spend a life with, to build something with, but if

that's all going to be done for you, what are you going out and about for?

They didn't see the importance of socializing.

They always saw that kind of stuff as finding a mate.

And they were like, well, we're finding you one.

So you don't have to do that.

Yeah.

So, you know, and then that was really hard.

I mean, one of my, my, I think it's my only regret in life is I was

offered a job at a car factory.

I always wanted to design cars.

And it was it was just a a year after A Levels.

And my dad was fine with it, my mother was fine with it, but

my uncles were very anti it.

Because it's a factory full of men building cars.

But I was going to work in the design department.

And they rallied round and told my father there is no way I

was allowed to take the job.

And I later found out that the other reason was some of the family, extended

family, worked on the shop floor.

And it was very much an attitude of, who does she think she is?

Hmm.

Which was nuts because, you know, we're in this country to make a better life, to do

better than we could have done in India.

You know, we're, I'm, I'm from the Sarni, you know, caste.

And we're farm owners.

So, you know, you work the land.

And so to come here and to do well, you could, but not if you were going

to embarrass your extended family.

And a lot of it, I mean, I don't know what you think, but a

lot of it wasn't actually about.

How our parents felt it was about society, whoever society is.

I'd love to find them.

And what will the community say?

And I want to find them because I'm sure their kids are doing the same thing.

And that was inevitably the thing.

I think for us, the biggest struggle growing up was in finding our identity.

Was how do we be, you know, certainly yes, good brown girls still, you

know, emerging to society, but also.

be able to show our parents that actually we're everything

that aspirationally, rather than they want, everybody else wants.

So it's that constant juggling act, wasn't it?

That constant

It was constant juggling act, but also because they

were farmers and landowners.

Their idea of a good job was an office job in a clean environment nine till five.

That did not include being a creative, working in a television studio,

you know, traveling for your work.

It, they, they, it's interesting.

I always sort of relate it to the working class of England, you know,

that kind of, I always remember the old black and white films where they go,

you know, who does she think she is?

You know, she thinks she's better than everyone else.

And there was a lot of that.

People.

Wanted you to succeed, but not too much.

Which, that's the bit I found really hard, you know.

And I remember people saying to me, Why aren't you married yet?

And I'm like, you know, I just don't want to get married.

And they were like, Oh, but it's alright for us to be married, is it?

You know, everything was an attack.

They saw it as an attack.

And there was this community of mothers and aunts and, you know, as my husband

calls them, the Indian aunt network.

You know, where you were seen saying hello to a classmate, who happened to be male.

Somebody would jot down the time and the location and tell your parents.

And by the time you got home, they knew about it before you did.

You know, and we used to get in trouble for that all the time,

just saying hello to somebody.

The Ducking and diving that we had to do.

And that's the thing, because we were always aspiring, because

we, we, I suppose, you know, we were, we were good kids.

We were just trying to say, the thing for me is that, it's that navigating of

trying to be very British, trying to be very Indian and not let anybody down.

Yeah.

We were always trying to do.

And then, you know, just coming on to the doing the right thing, I think

a big thing certainly I know is for you and you're super, super smart.

So you had any problems with this, was academia.

So a lot of, you know, bragging rights for our parents came from our academia

and how we were as children, right?

So how we behaved.

So it'd be good to get your kind of sense of what was school like for you

kind of growing up because going back to your point, we were at a disadvantage

because we had to speak Indian at home.

So, you know, it wasn't really our first language as we were going,

you know, as we were growing up.

And actually we didn't get as much time from our parents as our, you know, white

counterparts did in terms of homework, but there was always this high expectation,

you know, of, academic achievement.

The only time my parents actually had time to talk about it, and it's not

their fault because they were busy working, was when I got my report card.

Inevitably, I'd always get into trouble.

It was the first time they'd have exposure, because they didn't have

time to come to parents evening, first time they'd have exposure to

my academic failings, if you like.

So I always felt like a disappointment.

But You know, it was tough, wasn't it?

It was tough.

I've found it very difficult.

Like you say, you know, we, we spoke our mother tongue.

That was our first language.

And English, I found hard anyway.

I was never academic, always creative.

So that was always a slight disappointment in my family's eyes.

But the one, one place they did let me go to was the library.

So I know ridiculous things that are never going to come in handy because I

spent hours and hours in the library.

So I think my general knowledge comes from as a child, I used to read biographies.

I know all about the Profumo affair.

Didn't even happen in my lifetime, you know, but I know all about it.

And from, sorry, from books and from television.

So I learned about English manners.

You know, the rules of engagement, different phrases that I would

never have got from home.

And as you said, you then come home and they haven't got

a clue about your homework.

They don't understand why you're doing biology and physics and chemistry.

They don't understand the jobs out there.

They just want you to have a nice office job, you know?

And I remember You know, I want to, you know, sheer stubbornness that I sort of

went to art college, but even then, you know, my poor parents had to put up with

snide remarks because a lot of Asian women worked in Indian clothes factories

because that's all they could do because they used to make clothes at home.

So they worked in Indian clothes factories.

And so, you know, when I went off to do a fashion design course.

They were saying, oh, why didn't she just come and work

in an Indian factory with us?

You know, and I really did feel for my parents, and I'm so proud of them,

because they stood their ground and said, nope, she's going to university.

And I remember someone saying but why is she going to Bristol?

She should go here.

You don't know what's going to happen to her.

Anyway, nothing happened.

I got my degree, you know.

But again, it was very much a, who does she think she is?

Because I was the first in my family to go to university.

And I was the, and that's how the boys and girls, you know, so

that didn't go down well sort of with a lot of extended family.

I did fashion.

I worked for Vivienne Westwood.

I worked for Red or Dead.

And then I applied for a job at The Clothes Show, an old program at the BBC.

And finally, you know, my mum and dad could tell everybody

she works for the BBC.

Because that is, you know, you know, it's worshipped in India.

And it's the one word that they could all understand.

And then, the snide remarks stopped.

Finally.

Wow.

I think it's so tough.

And as I was saying before, I think a lot of a lot of our parents measure

success for themselves was based on us.

And that's hugely pressurising.

Pressurising, but also they don't give themselves credit for what they did.

You know, my father was 19, didn't speak English, came to this country, his letter

hadn't arrived because nobody could afford a phone call or a telegram in those days.

No one was at the airport to pick him up.

He's with another boy from the village.

The boy from the village said, I think I know someone who lives nearby.

They put their money together, got a taxi to Southall, somewhere.

Luckily, this man was in, kept to them for two days, then got some

money together to make a phone call.

And your father went to pick my father up, because your father

was the only one with a car.

Wow.

And he went to get him from London.

You know, and to do all that, you know, in those days, you know,

Indian people don't give themselves credit for what they've done.

You're absolutely right.

I don't think at 19 I could go to somewhere like China, pick up

the language, make not only enough money for myself and my family, but

you know, don't forget our parents sent money home as well, to keep the

land, to build the houses, you know.

You're absolutely right.

I think it's making, I don't think we, at the time, were able to make

those allowances in our own head for what the struggle they went through.

I mean, you know, our parents used to, my dad used to talk about how he

used to walk, you know, 10 miles a day to walk to school in the hot sand.

Yeah.

And we used to have a bit of a giggle about it, but actually.

It was a massive struggle and he, like you say, he came when he was really

young with a pound in his pocket to only be faced with racism, you know,

live in a house full of, you know, 20 odd people that he didn't know, had

to cook and clean, missed his parents, he was very close to his parents.

So yeah, you're right, there were a lot of struggles.

Which I guess, you know, when you're younger, you just think,

well, you put me in this situation.

So, you know, it's tough for me to deal with.

And, you know, you talking about your dad working, my dad, he came

to England, you know, proper sex.

So when I say proper sick, you know, as in.

You know, he was a practicing Sikh, you know, he wore a turban

and he couldn't get a job.

So he went into the he went into the job center and I think someone said

something to the effect, you know, the person at the job center said, have

you thought about taking your hat off?

And he came home and he cried and he said to mum, I think I'm going

to have to, to lose the turban.

I'm going to have to cut my hair.

And he did.

And I think he broke.

And then when his parents found out back in India, obviously

they were devastated, ashamed.

So we had all of these things, again, conflicting things that he had too,

which I guess we didn't understand when we were younger, because certainly

from my perspective, I was like, well, you've put me in this situation.

I've got to deal with this.

But actually, you're absolutely right.

They had all their own conflicting things, which then led to the pressure that

we got put under because they didn't.

sacrificed so much.

So therefore, I guess we always felt that indebtedness to them.

I still to this day, you know, I'm hitting 50 soon and I

still feel that indebtedness.

I want to make them proud.

I think you have.

I think if you feel indebted to your parents, they've done a good

job, you know, and I think that's the way you should look at it.

But at the same time, you've got to make yourself happy as well.

And that's where the conflict is when you're going against what

your parents think is happy.

And the only way to do that, to get sort of, you know,

some common ground is to talk.

And that's the one thing we don't do.

Yeah.

We don't talk to our parents because you know, when you used to try it,

it was like, no, can we do this?

No.

Can we go there?

No.

Why?

I said, no, I don't need to say why.

You know?

Yeah.

And so they've been brought up, they brought us up the same way their parents

brought them up in India, but they didn't take, but you know, they've moved on.

They're in England now.

30 onwards.

I had a better relationship with both parents.

Yeah.

You know, we would sit there and talk and they would say, why do

you want to know these things?

And I was feeling It's good to know.

It's good to know.

You know, I sat my father down not long after my mother died, so 10, 10 years ago.

And I said, tell me I'm gonna film this your life story.

And he said, why?

And I was like, because the children need to know.

They think everything's easy, you know.

They need to know the sacrifice you made, for them, for me, for, you

know, for the sake of your family.

And he said the same thing, the biggest heartbreak was

when he had to cut his hair.

Because somebody told him he would definitely be able

to get a job in a bakery.

He cut his hair, shaved his beard off, and his friend did it for

him, and he didn't get the job.

And when he called his father to tell him, his father put the phone down on him.

And it was the saddest thing, but, you know, they need to realize

that, you know, Grandad hasn't always had a turban and a beard.

He was then lucky to get a job where they didn't mind.

Yeah.

But, you know, he going back to the 80s, you know, when he had skinheads tell him

to go back to his own country, he actually said, I can't, the Queen invited me.

And he still has his Commonwealth voucher.

You know, given to him by the Department of Employment, you

know, signed off by the Queen.

He's like, I can't go back.

The Queen invited me.

And so I just love, you know, in those stories, we have to be careful.

We have to pass them on.

We have to get our parents to talk.

We have to get our grandparents to talk.

Otherwise, we're going to lose them.

And I think unless you know where you're, where you've come from.

You have no idea where you want to go.

No, you're absolutely right.

And I think, you know, the point that you made around, you know, having our

parents go through such a journey.

I always, you know, say to my parents that they sacrificed

their life so we could have ours.

And I understand that now.

But back in the day I was thinking, you know, why are you making me do this?

Why are you making me study so hard?

Why don't you let me go out at night?

Why don't you let me be like everybody else?

But now I understand everything they did was to sacrifice.

It's everything for us, but at the time it didn't feel like that.

And hence goes back to my point around, there's that almost pressure, right?

Cause we have to do that kind of payback.

But the bit that I really wanted to talk to you about as well was, you

know, being female right in our culture.

I mean, I'm one of four girls, so I brought in a predominantly

kind of female environment.

So, and I, and as you know, I was.

brought up as a bit of a tomboy shocker so I didn't have those kind of struggles, I

suppose, with having a male in the house or, you know, a brother to be able to

see what those kind of differences were.

I think you're referring to 'the prince'.

When there's a boy in the house, he is the prince.

Yeah.

Only, gosh, Indian mothers are notorious for, you know, preferring boys.

It's, you know, I've heard women say, I'm so lucky I've got three boys.

And you're like, really?

Because when you're old, it won't be them looking after you, it'll be your daughter.

But they have this, I think it goes back to dowry days, you know, if you had a

boy, you know, you've got a huge dowry and a wife, so someone else to help

you with the work and a load of money.

Or a duvet, or furniture, whatever was going at the time.

So yeah, I did find that hard, but I think he found it hard

because he was older than me.

So the pressure was on him, and he was not academic.

You know, I mean, he's doing really well now, works in IT.

But at the time, he wasn't very academic, and I think it's, it's

really easy for me to say, well, I wasn't anyone's favourite anyway.

Typical middle child, which was true.

But I don't know whether you're better off if you're the favourite.

Good point.

You know, a lot was expected from him.

I don't know, I just think with some parents, they make a rod for their own

back when they treat boys so differently.

I mean, it was a running joke how my mother treated me and him.

I mean, even he knew he was the favourite.

And you know, it was little things.

My mum had made some chicken curry.

And she went to give me some, and she went to give him some.

And she gave him a brand new container.

And she gave me a tattered old margarine box.

And my brother actually said to me, Guess which one you're getting.

And I was like, Oh, I know.

I know, you're prince.

You know.

I love that.

I love that.

That's still stayed with you since.

But, you're right.

There are loads of things like that.

And I think, you know, you've got a very empathetic view actually.

I think, you know, a lot of people that comes with age.

That comes with age.

Yeah, and that comes with age, right?

Because when you're younger, you're just thinking, Why, why, why?

Why are they allowed out?

Why are they allowed to speak to English girls?

Why are they allowed to go to their mate's house?

You know, so many privileges.

I think one of the reasons my parents relented and let me go

to university to do You know, an art degree was because I sort of said,

well, I'm not the favorite anyway.

Does it really matter what I do?

So, so, so.

You know, and they agreed to that.

You're like, you're not supposed to admit he's your favorite.

You're supposed to say, no, I love you all equally.

You know, and so it worked to my advantage or I used it to my advantage.

That's what.

Yeah.

Well, you definitely earned your stripes.

You were a good brand girl, I have to say.

I think most of my, I think my parents wanted you to rub off on me.

How did that go?

It took a bit of time, but we got there.

But no, I, I definitely think, you know, they are from, you know, from

what I know, they're hugely proud of you, but I really wanted to move

on now to, I guess a little bit more around career paths and lifestyles.

So, you know, a lot of second generation individuals, you

know, face a lot of expectations.

From their families to, you know, follow that traditional career path.

You know, we all know it and I'm guilty of it.

Doctor, lawyer, and I did a law degree.

I gave in.

Pharmacist.

Pharmacist.

Dentist.

You know, all of the above.

I knew from when you engaged, because I remember I used to come into your

room and you'd say, You know, magazines of Vogue and all the cool magazines,

I used to be like, wow, and you'd have this like kind of mannequin where you

do all your kind of fashion and you, you, you know, from a very young age,

you're always thinking outside the box in terms of what you wanted from a

career, even though you weren't exposed from that with the community around you.

So how did you navigate that?

How did you not give in to doing law degree like I did?

I just wasn't academic.

I wasn't that academic.

I really wasn't interested in it.

I just, I fell in love with black and white films.

That's where I think my love of art and, you know, sculptures and, you

know, any, any film based in Italy was just so romantic to me, you know,

and I loved black and white films.

I loved the outfits.

I loved musicals, you know, old musicals and, and that's where

I became interested in fashion.

So it's really interesting.

It was.

Them keeping me in, and not allowing me out and about

actually made me an artistic soul.

So it backfired.

It backfired!

It was a dream, you know, it's When you're not allowed to do anything to

say that I you know I used to come home and I wasn't allowed to go in any of the

rooms downstairs I had to go straight upstairs and change out of my skirt

into trousers and a long sleeve top You know, my hair had to be pulled back.

I was never allowed to have it out, you know, no makeup Well,

you know, I didn't even have it.

God knows what I look like the first time I put it on, you know But it

was very, you know, Marlene Dietrich, you know, it's all wrong, all wrong.

And so it was, it was interesting, but it was just so strict.

All we had was television, you know, that's all we had.

And the library, and the library had great glossy books and, you

know, beautiful fashion and, you know, Gaultier and Galliano.

And I just loved it.

It was a different world.

It's a real escapism from the dreary tragedy, you know, of Coventry basically.

But how did you push back then from your parents?

Because there would have been this, you know, certainly, because

they were all the same community.

So it was a given, right, that we were going to go to...

I think they just told everybody I was doing an

art degree, and that was it.

And it was just all, you know.

But weirdly, nobody minded me doing an art degree.

They minded me getting a job working in a car factory.

Nobody minded me doing an art degree, because I think they thought

she won't amount to anything.

So they didn't get any pressure from outside.

You know, their main concern was why are you letting her go to Bristol?

That was their main concern.

That I was going to come back, you know, with a white boy.

You know, something shocking.

Yeah, I mean that would be the worst case scenario in those days, right?

Yeah.

Which is craziness.

I think you're right, I think going to university, what it represented

in our parents mind was very different to what it represented.

Well, to an extent, because we knew it meant freedom.

Yeah.

We knew it meant being able to mix with all different cultures.

You knew, you knew it would open your mind.

But I think in our parents, the concern was, again, what's society going to say if

she comes back and she's cut her hair or she's been seen with a boy and, you know,

the shame and it's going to get back to what I call headquarters in India, right?

So, you know, and before you know, it's a massive scandal.

So I think it's not necessarily.

You know, about us going to university is what it, you know,

represented in their minds.

It represented a freedom that your parents didn't want you to have, that

the community didn't want you to have.

And, you know, with freedom comes, you know, experience.

You know, it's a wonderful, wonderful thing.

You know, I would often say to my mother, you know, if I'd went to nice dinners,

you know, with work and saw the world, you know, when I worked for MTV Europe.

You know, I went round the world interviewing people, and

I remember saying to my mother, I wish I could take you with me.

And she goes, yes, but this is what we did.

This is what we wanted.

To you, for you to live your best life.

So, I also do think, with a lot of Asian parents, I mean I don't know about all of

them, with mine I was particularly lucky.

Because we talked to them, they changed.

You know, as you know, you know, I have a white brother in law, you know.

And they're absolutely fine, they adore Peter.

And, you know, but I remember growing up thinking, good gosh, no, I

wouldn't be allowed to marry anybody of a different color, a different

religion, a different caste, even, you know, so my parents changed.

They're quite open minded, I think, you know, compared to,

you know, a lot of other parents might have been in those days.

And I think, you know, you as a family would, I know you were saying

about the whole motions piece and actually we weren't allowed to.

Share our emotions or thoughts and feelings, but I think you kind of

educated your parents along the way and you took them on that journey of

showing them actually you can be a good person but there are things that

I'm going to do, which will still make you proud of me, but actually, you

know, those misconceptions that they might have had in their mind, you were

able to kind of alleve those concerns.

Yeah.

Completely.

And, you know, I think they realized when I came back home after

university, the fact that I came home.

You know, I missed home, you know, that I hadn't really changed that much,

but I'd lived a life in three years.

Yeah.

You know, it meant something to them.

You know, I've never seen them happier.

They never came once to Bristol to visit me.

Come graduation day, they were over the moon.

Never seen them happier.

I mean, you must have felt that too.

Had that too.

I just reminded me, I was just reminiscing because this is quite embarrassing.

Actually, you probably would have shared this with me, but I used to get doggy

bags sent, you know, Indian curries.

Remember when we used to get together on a Sunday and just like

gather around these Indian curries.

So I never quite left.

I never fully quite left home.

It's quite interesting because I actually then went back home

just to do the rest of my degree.

because I actually miss family and that kind of whole cultural vibe.

So whilst I was struggling against it for 18 years, which is the irony, I then

actually went back home again because I miss that kind of creature comfort.

But, you know, there's nothing wrong with admitting you

made a mistake or that you, there's, you know, this isn't working for me.

Within our culture, you're not allowed to make a mistake.

You're not allowed to get things wrong, do you know what I mean?

You're not allowed to fail because they gave up so much for you to succeed.

And that in itself is another re education, telling them

that this isn't failure.

This is me realizing this isn't for me, so I'm going to do something else that is.

Or, you know, yes, I made a mistake, but I've learned from that mistake.

So it's, again, you're re educating your parents to think of it a

different way and not how the rest of the community think about it.

And just going back to your career, because I think it's so fascinating

and we're brushing on that, because I know that you you don't really like

talking about it, you're not one of those boasting, you know, people that

boast about things like this, but you know, you were one of the first

Indian women actually in television.

We're talking back in the 90s.

Give us a bit of a sense of actually what was that like,

and how were people accepting?

At Pebble Mill, there was quite a few.

It was quite multicultural, but A lot of people worked in radio, but it's

when I got to London, I realized, you know, I was like the only Indian woman

at Teddington You know, MTV, you know, I remember somebody quite famous talked

to me saying, I'm sure we've met before.

Everybody was aghast and I was, and I just turned around and said, well, how many

Indian people do you have working here?

Yeah.

And they were like, oh, we didn't think of that.

You know, it never bothered me.

It never bothered anyone else.

Every now and then I get the occasional remark like Oh gosh, I

bet it's hot where you come from.

I'm like, no, no, Coventry's north.

It's a lot colder.

You know, so people who hadn't dealt with anyone colored before, especially

at the BBC, you know, old school BBC, but nobody pushed my identity.

I didn't push it.

Nobody else pushed that.

There was no sort of delving into the culture.

I mean, it came in handy when we once had Amitabh Bachchan,

indie movie star on channel five.

And I said, I know a Bhangra band, you know, we got this Bhangra band on

and it turned out they were actually in a film with him when he filmed in

England, so it worked out really well.

So it's come in handy.

I suppose you were a part of that whole, you were in TV, that whole movement

when, God, do you remember when Goodness Gracious Me and Bhaji on the Beach and,

you know, those films came out and all of a sudden, I don't know how you felt,

but I felt like a sense of pride almost that actually we were even putting on

the map and we were going into mainstream television and actually we could laugh

about, you know, goodness gracious me, it was about laughing at ourselves

and, you know, writing a lie and all that kind of, you know, jokey stuff.

But actually we could laugh at ourselves.

Yeah.

And meet the Kapoor's, you know, that kind of thing.

I guess you witnessed all of that kind of, of bringing Asian, you

know, culture into the mainstream.

Yeah.

And it was great because we, we would laugh and joke and say, that's

exactly what my mother would do.

She would take a Luperante with her on a, you know, seaside trip, then go

into a cafe and order a cup of tea.

They'd be like, you can't eat your own food here.

They just didn't see the big deal.

You know, and actually a couple of months ago, I went to Bournemouth.

And there was this, the most heartwarming thing I saw.

Huge blankets, but 20, 30 Asian people.

All family, different ages, extended.

And they all had their bronte, and their curries, and their

pickle, and flasks of chai.

And I just thought that was lovely that it still happened.

And nobody laughs at it anymore, you know.

It's quite, yeah.

Yeah.

Took me back.

I loved it.

Loved seeing that.

I loved it and a lot of kind of my, you know, kind of our western counterparts

really enjoyed watching because it gave them a sense of our culture.

Absolutely.

And the fact that we could, there were some hard hitting, you know,

issues that we, we would come through in some of those programs but also a

sense of actually what it was like.

Kind of growing up.

So I love the fact that we were able to be more open about it through media.

And I guess you saw that kind of whole journey as we were able to

really put you know, Asians and being proud of being Asian on the radar.

It was, it was great.

And it was great because Grindr the director, you know, she did that one

first and then she moved on to Bend It Like Beckham, which was great

because it showed that, you know, an Asian director can do other cultural

films, not just about Indian culture.

But, you know, you could do different films as well, you know, and they do

have an element of what she knows.

I think it was a real turning point in accepting more Asian people within the

film industry, within documentaries, and within television as a whole.

I think the BBC really took a chance on Goodness Gracious Me.

It was on radio first, and then You know, went on to television and

I think they did a brilliant job.

They did a brilliant job.

And I think, you know, I think more about kind of fashion and

music when it came on the radio.

So Punjabi MC and then you have Jay Z kind of doing a recut of his music.

Right.

So all of a sudden Indian and Punjabiness became cool.

You had Madonna, obviously, who you've worked with and she started to wear

kind of very Eastern influenced fashion.

So there became, I think, a stage, was it probably early 2000s?

Where actually...

Oh , I remember the 90s when I would wear English

clothes with a huge bindi.

You know, it was the thing to do at the time and I still sort of,

you know, wear my shawls around.

Yeah, I think the more people saw it, the more they took it on.

I don't believe in this.

What's that awful thing?

Culturally inappropriate, whatever they call it.

I think, no, if you want to wear a sari, wear a sari.

There's nothing more my mother in law used to love than seeing a white person

in a sari because she said, you know, with their pale skin, everything looks great.

You know what she was like, she loves, she loves that.

You know, when I got married, my two best friends, Polish.

And Italian both war turbans, you know, came down the aisle with me.

So I don't believe in cultural inappropriation.

I think it's, it's a great way to show that you're embracing a different culture.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, they say what's chicken tea masala is the UK's favorite food, you

know, so there's all things like that.

It's all things, you know...

And now there's shops everywhere, you know, forget

coffee shops, chai shops.

And turmeric lattes.

I mean, that's a whole new thing.

I'm going to be doing a podcast soon on Ayurveda.

And, you know, it's, you know, when the first time I had a tuneric latte, you

know, well, my mum was like, well, that's

what I told you to have it.

You wouldn't have it.

And then I had to go to Starbucks to have it for the first time.

Right.

Yeah.

So there's lots of things which I find are Eastern influenced and are

coming into kind of Western society.

And they're showing us actually what we already should have known.

Well, the thing is, we didn't believe our parents.

That's the thing, right?

We thought it was an old wives tale, you know.

And so now, it's quite funny when you go, and did you know?

And they were like, yeah, we do know.

We've been doing it for years.

And did you know this?

Yeah.

Yeah, we know.

That's why we always get you to, used to rub our feet if we were

feeling sluggish or not feeling very well, you know, digestion wise.

Yeah.

And I was like, okay, so you did know.

And you know turmeric?

They were like, yep.

And that's why we pickle rats a bit, so we can have it all year round.

You know, to keep your cold away and build your immune system up.

That's true and now we're al going back to Ayurveda, aren't we?

. Mandish: You knew all this.

They were like, yeah, everybody else believed this apart from our own children.

Okay, fair enough.

And that's the irony, right?

We're all going back to holistic.

But, you know, it wasn't all bad.

We, the more, you know, as we get older, like you say, we're

embracing our cultural heritage.

You've asked your father to kind of film, you know, a lot about

of our heritage, how he grew up.

Same with kind of my parents.

Yeah.

So, obviously we're really proud, proud of it.

So, you know, focusing on the good stuff, and you've got amazing, amazing boys.

I love spending time with them.

What are some of the Indian cultural practices, you know,

you want them to carry on kind of next generation and carry through?

What a lot of people don't know is my grandmother, my father's

mother was actually Nepalese and Hindu.

So we've actually taught them about both religion, Sikhism and Hinduism.

What they stand for, how Sikhism is an extension of Hinduism.

And you know, it's a belief.

You know, all these things are beliefs.

They're religions, but you know, it's what you want to believe.

So you must never pick on someone, ostracize them, or look down upon them

just because of what they believe in.

It's their belief, you must respect it at all times.

And so, you know, that's like just the basics of all religion and

then we do things like Diwali.

So, we had Diwali where they got given traditionally a piece of clothing,

so they got clothing on Diwali.

We obviously don't leave candles lit at night anymore.

I can't believe we used to do that in the 70s, leave candles

lit around the house on Diwali.

Yeah.

So, we tell them the story and we leave the lights on downstairs, you know, so

this modern day versions of everything.

You know, Vaisakhi, and of course they do Rakhri, and they don't have a

sister, the brother and sister bond of Rakhri, so they do it with their cousin.

You know, and they see me, you know, I post, you know, I do it with my brother,

but I also have two male cousins I'm very close to, and I make sure I post theirs to

them, and they see the importance of that.

And they do enjoy those traditions, they go to the temple, they go to the Mandir,

so you know, it's about respecting both religions that we know about.

We've also talked about Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity.

Really important, Yeah.

But just to have that respect for what other people believe in.

And what I love about our kind of culture is that we

have very big kind of networks.

We stick together.

We've always got each other's back if one's poorly.

You know, you're always, whenever I'm feeling well, you're

always sending me queries over.

And, you know, when we come together as families, there's so much love.

We have these huge communities and we are really, I suppose,

supported and looked after.

You're never really gonna be alone in our communities.

I think that also goes back to, you know, childhood.

We didn't go to the pub, we didn't go to restaurants.

We didn't have the money.

We didn't get takeaways.

We went to each other's houses.

Yeah.

And we took it in turns to cook.

I mean, I remember at one point, you and I, every Saturday, we'd go shopping at

every Sunday we're at each other's house.

Yeah.

You know, and so that just builds this really strong bond.

And I have now, you know, really tried, especially in the summer holidays,

to say, right, we are going to Aunty Perveen's for three days in Norfolk.

We are then going to see, you know, my sister in such and such, then

we're going to see Uncle Sergei, Uncle Lugby, you know, and we go

through it all, build those bonds to teach them what community is as well.

And also, it's quite nice hearing them say to my sons, Yeah, your, your mum,

gosh, she had such a strict upbringing.

Your grandad was really strict, and they're like, Grandad?

No way!

You know, because all of a sudden your parents have

turned into, like, the coolest.

Trendiest, you know, grandparents who just hand over money at the drop

of a hat to their grandchildren.

So they can't believe Grandad was ever strict.

And so it's quite funny that when we're together with extended family, they

hear their version, my family's version of events and how it was for them.

And that's something you can't get.

That sense of community.

Whilst we said, it could be quite stifling.

Yeah, family, community, you know, stifling when we were younger, but

actually, as we've grown up, you know, it's like you say, it's one of the things

that we want to pass on to our children.

I certainly do with my nieces and nephews, is that sense of kind of

belonging and supporting one another, which, you know, We're all super

proud of so, you know, like you say, there is so much to be proud of.

It's nice to talk to you all day, but what I normally end with is

a couple of quick five questions.

So being Happiologist, I'd really need to get your take on, and you

can only use three words for this.

Okay.

If you can.

I don't know, it's tough.

What's the key to happiness?

Freedom of choice.

That's it.

Love that.

Freedom of choice.

Freedom to love who you want, do what you want, go where

you want, work what you want.

But more importantly.

The freedom of choice to leave a bad situation, whether it's

abuse, a toxic relationship.

Or something that's, you know, preying on your mental health.

If you can leave, if you have that freedom of choice to leave, to stay,

to improve, to educate, you're happy.

That's happiness.

Love that.

And I think a lot to do with that is around courage as well.

So one of the things that I'm launching is the core formula.

Which sets out really is how, first and foremost, do we find our courage and be

brave to be able to, to be able to say it's okay to have that sense of freedom

and not, you know, upset other people.

So I absolutely love that.

What a great term.

Thank you.

Finally, just another quick five questions.

Oh.

If you knew now what you did then, you know, what would you

tell your 20 year old self?

What would you do differently?

Not that you'd need to do have done much because you were

very, very brave, I have to say.

It's interesting, isn't it?

Because I didn't feel I was brave enough.

I wish I'd been more confident, more pushy.

I wish I didn't believe my parents when they said they'd disowned me, because

I don't think they would have done.

I wish I'd taken that job in the factory, designing cars.

That's it.

Yeah.

But other than that, no real, I think, yeah, just be confident.

Be confident.

There's no such thing as failure.

It's just, you make a mistake, you learn from the mistake, you move on.

That's it.

Hmm.

I think you're absolutely right.

And like you say, what is the worst that could happen if you'd taken that job?

Yeah.

You the worst that would happen?

Like you say, you would have been forgiven.

So it's saying in your mind, actually, if I do this, what

actually is really going to happen?

What is the actual worst case scenario?

And I think we're so built with fear sometimes, aren't we, that we can't

actually see the wood from the trees.

It's True.

And the problem is you've got the whole society, not just your

family, supporting that fear.

That's the cycle we've got to break.

We've got to make our children brave and not scared.

Yes, I love that.

Thank you so much.

Listen, I could talk to you all day and you are a phenomenal human, a

phenomenal sister an amazing artist.

I really do wish you would start selling more of your art because

you are absolutely phenomenal.

And, you know, you're hiding that from the world.

I know you only do bits now and again, but you're obviously a dedicated

woman doing lots of other great stuff, especially around charity work.

I just want to say thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your story.

Like you say so much to be proud of for being, you know, good brown girls

in this environment and society.

So thank you for that.

And thank you to everyone for listening.

I wish you all love and light.

Thanks for tuning in lovely listeners.

Any questions or thoughts?

Drop me an email at Dal@thehappiologist.com and follow me on

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