“If you put a system in place that can nurture those opportunities carefully over time and know what to do with each opportunity at each moment in the customer journey, then you’re going to always have things happening, and you can organize your growth in a very efficient way.”
John Lenker is the Chief Vision Officer at Lenker.
Starting your own business is a tempting proposition for many skilled workers who dream of setting their own hours and making their own money. However, successfully running a business takes a varied skillset and a growth mindset. An organization like Lenker steps in when owners need help with branding, strategy, marketing, or new methods.
We had the privilege of interviewing John Lenker, CVO at Lenker, and Assaf Arie, CEO at Lenker, to learn more about their experiences and the methods they use to kickstart growth. Tune in for valuable advice on knowing your capabilities and improving your mindset when managing your business.
Topics discussed in this interview:
- John’s background and meeting Assaf
- Assaf’s path to working at Lenker
- Growing a business to better coach business owners
- Common growing pains and how to beat them
- Find a partner to catapult your business to the next level
- Flexibility and adaptation are key
- Going beyond fixing problems to creating systems
- The vital role of branding
- How to attract good workers
- Thoughts on AI and its impact on jobs
- Keep an open mind
- Rapid fire questions
To rethink your business strategy, visit lenker.com and connect with Assaf and John on LinkedIn.
This episode of Construction Disruption is sponsored by TrueLook, the easiest way to view, secure, and document your jobsite. Get your free, no obligation quote at TrueLook.com.
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Connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn
This episode was produced by Isaiah Industries, Inc.
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Intro/Outro:
:Welcome to the Construction Disruption podcast, where we uncover the future of design, building, and remodeling.
Ryan Bell:
:I'm Ryan Bell of Isaiah Industries, manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building materials. Today, my co-host is Todd Miller. Todd, how are you doing?
Todd Miller:
:I'm doing pretty well. How are you?
Ryan Bell:
:I'm great.
Todd Miller:
:You know, I did have to say pretty well. I had one sort of sad thing happen. Seems like I always announce sad things on this show.
Ryan Bell:
:You do.
Todd Miller:
:Yeah, I do. I don't know, I never brought it to work. But for many years I have owned, I have had a pet parrot, you know, and it flew around our house and it was kind of a free-range parrot. But I had it a lot of years. They live a long time, and it had gotten rather overweight. So I had a fairly obese parrot. I mean, it was almost the size of a hippopotamus, to be honest. I mean, it was it was an obese parrot. But I'm kind of sad because my obese parrot passed away. Like I said, I'm very sad. But I must admit, it's a huge weight off my shoulders.
Ryan Bell:
:Nice one.
Todd Miller:
:I just stretch these out too long, don't I?
Ryan Bell:
:Did you make that one up yourself?
Todd Miller:
:No. I may have embellished it a little bit.
Ryan Bell:
:A little bit, okay. A little bit. Well, it's good. I rate that a six on the scale of dad jokes.
Todd Miller:
:Going into the weekend. I'll take that.
Ryan Bell:
:Well, I am excited about this episode. Before we start, I just want to let our listeners know we are doing our challenge words game. If you're not familiar with that, we all have a word that we've kind of been assigned to work into the conversation, kind of a word that may stick out a little bit. So keep your ears open if anything kind of sticks out and reverberates with you. That just sounds like it may not fit in place. Let's get started. I'm absolutely thrilled for this episode today. Normally, we book a guest and then do some research on our end to kind of put together some questions and a rough script before we record each episode. And when we initially hopped into the recording studio for this episode, it quickly became apparent to us that there was a massive amount of knowledge and advice that today's guests have to share with our audience. So we decided to kind of take a step back and use our originally scheduled recording time so that we could kind of regroup on our end and make sure we didn't let any of this incredible knowledge slip through the cracks. So I've been just thrilled and looking forward to this episode ever since. And today we are joined by John Lenker, chief vision officer and Assaf Ari, CEO of Lenker, which is a strategic growth consulting and marketing services firm based in Minnesota. They help their clients be more effective and efficient in their marketing and have some great stories about how their process for business growth has been proven in the real world. John and Assaf, welcome to Construction Disruption.
John Lenker:
:Thank you for having us.
Assaf Arie:
:Yeah, happy to be here.
Ryan Bell:
:Great. We are glad to have you. Start things off, one thing that's always kind of helpful for our audience when listening to the guidance and ideas brought by our guests is to understand that our guests have the real world experience and track record to talk with authority and influence. John, can you kind of start us off by giving us a brief rundown of your background and experience and how you and Assaf became acquainted with one another?
John Lenker:
:Well, I could start in a number of ways with with my history. I think maybe the main thing to say is that I have had a career that is based on influencing people to believe in new ideas, to change their attitudes, their values, their beliefs, to influence their thinking, their feelings, their behavior. You know, these are all things that come under something called the affective domain of thinking or of learning. You know, the affect of something is is how it kind of influences the process people have in their minds and the opinions they form. So getting into marketing and communications and I had a long stint in the world of e-learning, which is, you know, influencing how people learn and, you know, do their jobs better. It's what I built my career on. I've worked on projects for some of the biggest companies in the world. And I just, you know, over time developed a real keen interest in helping the everyday average person who wants to start a business and succeed in helping them to kind of form their businesses so that they actually get the most out of the opportunity. And I think that's what initially attracted Assaf and I. We interestingly first started working together within the construction industry. He was a client of mine and, you know, he was working for a company that does pretty large-scale concrete contracting projects. And through that process of getting to know each other and helping his business grow, we we just developed a real friendship and a real focus on how can we take these things that we're doing and bring it to other companies and other people.
Ryan Bell:
:So Assaf, John, when we were having our initial discussion, John mentioned that he saw in you that you were born to take ideas and turn them into profitable enterprises, and that he knew if you could come into Lenker, the business would grow well beyond its current state. Can you share your background with us a little bit and kind of what has led you to where you are today?
Assaf Arie:
:Sure. I always feel uncomfortable talking about myself, but my background is, it's a little unique. I got, you know, got some military background and I was a practical engineer in the military. And then after the military, I went and I studied business and accounting and I practiced accounting for a few years. So what I guess, is give me a little bit of advantage is having an engineering background and an accounting background at the same time, because typically those are conflicting, right? An engineer will spend a budget and, you know, take you out of business with a great idea. An accountant will shut down ideas to make sure to preserve the cash. So having that balance, I think that's it. I was lucky to have that opportunity to have both worlds in a fairly close period of time of six or seven years, practice both engineering and accounting. That gave me a different way of thinking on a business. You know, I'm thinking of business as a machine that have gears, just an engineering part, and then also the fact that they need to be profitable and you got to be able to afford those gears as they're turning. So that's ,it's a different way of looking at a business than the average view.
Ryan Bell:
:So, you both, and this is John, you mentioned this is how you both met, was and working kind of in the construction industry is how you two were introduced to each other. And we discussed earlier that you both have interest outside of Lenker and your investors and partners and other businesses. You don't need to name them, but can you kind of take a few minutes to talk about those briefly and kind of how your experience with them has shaped what you do at Lenker?
Assaf Arie:
:Sure. Over the years, you know, I joined a construction company, a concrete foundation and decorative concrete company that wasn't overly successful. We reshaped it, turned it around. That's where John and I met, and I've exited out of that opportunity in 2019. Early on, you know, early 2012, I also partnered into a property management company that's still going, still a partner in this company and is still doing pretty well and growing year over year. From that venture into ownership of real estate to, you know, a few hundred units across the metro here in Minneapolis and also partnering to a roofing and exterior remodeling company, and in between also helped some other entities without ownership kind of form and take legs and kind of join the world.
John Lenker:
:And for me, I started a millwork business a few years ago. So custom cabinetry and other kinds of elements, architectural elements made out of wood and metal and a lot of custom furniture. Also out of this particular business. And it's been sort of my attempt to get going outside of my head, you know, in the world of marketing and consulting that, you know, there's a lot of thinking and planning and giving advice. And I wanted to leverage some of what we've been doing here to, you know, have have might try it at something in the real world. So I don't work in the business, but I, I started it and hired a general manager and it's its third year and it's growing, it's doing pretty well.
Ryan Bell:
:When you started it, were you doing the mill work?
John Lenker:
:No, I started it with with just a long history of designing custom furniture and having those pieces made by other people. And so we started from scratch. And kind of the strategy was, you know, we don't have any customer base. We're going to do overflow work for established businesses and kind of generate cash flow. And then after some time, you know, branch out and start forming our own relationships with builders, remodelers, architects, interior designers. And yeah, it's grown, you know, pretty rapidly.
Todd Miller:
:So I'm curious, I mean, you guys have worked with a lot of different businesses and you know, some were your own and some were clients and so forth. And, you know, some of these have spilled into the construction or built space. What are some of the challenges that you saw businesses facing that, you know, once you were able to get them over that challenge, you were able to propel them into new areas of growth? And how did you accomplish that or help them accomplish that?
John Lenker:
:Well, you know, there's there's a very familiar pattern that that happens with a lot of people who, you know, get into being an entrepreneur, starting your own business in the world of construction. And, you know, they they're in, you know, an existing position. They're doing well, they start to build confidence in their own abilities. And, you know, maybe they develop a kind of, you know, wanderlust. And they want to they want to go off onto their own and start something they believe they can run. And, you know, they they do a good job. They get out there, then maybe leverage some existing relationships and they start to do work. And they they're successful, they get referrals. And, you know, they're kind of doing it by the seat of their pants. They're doing it based on their their craftsmanship and their knowledge of a given discipline, you know, whether it's concrete or roofing or remodeling or, you know, new construction. But very quickly, as things start to grow, they start running into a major problem, which is, you know, what was working well at the beginning when everything is kind of being organized in their own heads, they can handle that on, you know, a few projects or a few clients at a time. But as it starts to grow and not everything can be contained within the mind of the founder or the initial partners, things start to fray apart at the edges because it can't just be done on the fly, out of your own knowledge, out of your own ability to keep up with the details and follow a process. So what what becomes a really significant barrier and a really limiting factor early on is that a business, because of lack of systems and processes that are in place, they start to fail to maintain their level of quality. They start to fall behind on things like doing estimates. They start to fail to keep up with their accounting and their bookkeeping, and they don't know what their cash flow is. And they can randomly make a series of decisions that lead to problems down the road. They start to have, you know, a diminishing of confidence in some of their most key clients. It's like, Wow, I used to do such a great job and now I hardly ever hear back from you. And so one of the most important things that we bring to the table when we work with a new client that's growing and doing well, but facing these kinds of problems, is that we help them identify systems and processes that are going to help them sort of shoulder the responsibility of an ever expanding business. So whether it's in accounting or whether it's in customer relationship management and marketing or project management, you know, we we have experience with all of these kinds of systems and how they integrate and work together to really help them kind of move past that barrier so that they can offer, you know, the same level of quality but on an expanded basis where responsibility is progressively being distributed onto other people's shoulders as they grow. So that's one of the things we focus on.
Assaf Arie:
:I'm sure some of you know, literally, conversations I had in the last seven days with multiple people. One of them is a contractor from Madison, Wisconsin. That conversation just took place yesterday and one of the main issues, as John mentioned early on, you know, if you're here, have some kind of a craft, you're a handyman of some sort in your trade, and you go out and you start doing work on your own. You'll do okay, you'll do fine. The jobs don't have to be overly profitable. You just need to know a few people and start to get the word going and you'll make a living. And, you know, I call those, that's the category of a lifestyle business. You don't really have a business. It pays your bills, you take vacations when you want. You don't report to anyone. You're not liable for anyone, even not to your clients in that stage. It's when the issue starts. When you make a decision, you actually want to build a business and you're going to the stage and you're not planning it properly. So it's the unplanned growth. And that's I think everything that John mentioned is planning your growth. Here's the areas you've got to develop. You currently have them, you know, and they're broken or they don't exist. And we need to develop them from scratch. Certain tools that you don't use and if you start using. So, planning, planning your growth is really important because growing in a construction field or anywhere is expensive, right? You, if you grow, let's say you're starting off and you know, you've got, you know, lifestyle businesses up to 1 to 1 and a half million dollars a year, that once you break that ceiling, you're start turning into a real business, right? So that you move from 1 million to 2 million. That's going to be very painful on you if you used to do $1 million a year. You do most of the chores yourself. And you are the salesperson, the accountant, the project manager, then you hire some laborer to help you execute. On $1,000,000 you can probably take home, $250-300,000 a year. Not bad, right? Get some tax deductions, get some, you know, buy some equipment. You move from 1 million to 2 million, your take home will drop by probably 50%. You have to hire, you have to expense. You got to finance the work that you're doing and you're paying always before you're getting paid constantly. So if you don't predict that and if you don't plan that, if you don't have your, even down to, you know, the financial planning, you know, getting a lot of credit, you know, loans to support you, equipment, loans, things like that, it will be very painful financially. And that's assuming everything else was great. That's assuming, you know, now there's some jobs you cannot personally run yourself. They're not going to go as smooth as you used to run them. You're going to have some associate costs with that. You're going to have angry customers. You're going to have some bad reviews online possibly. And you know, that will get you overwhelmed. So if you're not planning this growth, if you're not planning to 1 to 2 to 4, 4 to 8, you know, and so on and so on, it will be very painful. And that's where most businesses fail. Once they break the ceiling and they don't really break it, they actually get cut in their hands and and they're stuck there. They're stuck in a business that's not functioning properly. They're really committed to it. Now, they don't do well financially. They're not able to build, you know, the proper systems. So as John mentioned, part of what we do with our experience, both hands-on and with our clients and specifically with construction, because we have a lot of experience in that field, is lay out in advance, here are the challenges you're going to see. Here is the thing to watch out for. Here is the tools you should be, you know, bringing in-house. Here's the things you should not bring in-house and you should, you know, farm out. And here's some of the pain points you're going to experience going through this process. And if and if the owner or the founder knows that up front, it makes the process more easier, manageable and predictable.
Todd Miller:
:I'm kind of curious, though. So, and I love, you know, what you just built there, because that is how so often people do end up in business. You know, they they go into doing the trade that they knew and that they were trained or they love or whatever. And yeah, that challenge of building the systems to create a business that goes beyond them is a huge challenge and many people don't make it out of that. The thing that I find as sometimes interesting though, is the person who likes doing the hands-on type of thing, but they still want to scale the business. I mean, what's your advice to them? I mean, because they don't want to give up the hands-on part of things, but yet they still want to grow. So what would your advice be to someone like that?
Assaf Arie:
:Here's my advice, partner.
Todd Miller:
:Gotcha.
Assaf Arie:
:True, real partnership. Bring a partner that is good in what they do that is completely different than what you as a tradesman, a trade person. And, you know, that, you know, bring a financial partner or, you know, someone who has experience with entrepreneurship that doesn't even know the trades, but they know how to create traction. They know how to think like a business. They know how to communicate with the financial institutions, they know how to care for, for clients, for customers. Partner, like true equity partnership, not strategic partnership. That will get you. Oh, it's always fun to do business. You know, you got people to celebrate with, right? You know, if you're the only partner and you just nailed a great, you know, a great deal, will you go cheer yourself? So, you know, that's one thing. You bring partners, you take the load off and you can achieve so much more. But it's like marriage. So make sure you choose your partners really, really carefully.
Todd Miller:
:I love it, though. That's really good advice and very appropriate, I think, for the folks in that situation.
Assaf Arie:
:And I'm saying partnership. Just for a second, John. You know, obviously you can hire, too, but it's typically expensive early on.
Todd Miller:
:Mhm.
Assaf Arie:
:You know, but there's obviously companies like Lenker, like us, but there's other companies like us that can help you too with some of those elements. It just, you know, that's a little bit more costly when you're, you know, when you're smaller. So that's where I said, you know, partner is probably the cheapest early on and then bring the advisors, the mentors, people like us that can come and help you take it to the next level.
John Lenker:
:You know, usually by the time we get involved, the the founder has already gone through some hard difficulties, faced the challenges of sort of being in the mentality of, you know, I can do it all on my own or, you know, if there's some new. We talked a little bit a few minutes ago about platforms and systems and frameworks. And, you know, there's there's sort of this initial instinct that founders have, well, I can do it myself. I'll go read about how to build a website or how to, you know, put in a project management system and whatnot, and I've got the money and I can do it, but I don't wanna hire anybody else or get anybody else. You know, it's sort of like, you know, saying I can look in the most expensive magazines about how to build a kitchen and have the most expensive appliances or whatever. And once I have all those things that I've purchased, I'm not a world class chef or something, right? It's like it takes so much to learn how to think about doing the job properly. How do you build a pipeline? How do you manage deal flow? How do you manage cash flow? I mean, this is one of the most disabling things that happens to early stage businesses is that they will go and they will work really hard to fill their pipeline. And okay, now they have a lot of work and they're so busy doing the work that they neglect their pipeline and then finally they finish their big projects and they're like, Well, we have nothing to next month, nothing is scheduled. Well, it's because they don't have a system in place to manage their pipeline and to build a funnel that will bring in new leads, will categorize those leads in terms of, you know, deals that I can do right now or maybe in the next month or so or maybe somewhere, you know, in six months to a year. And because they can't manage and nurture all of those opportunities that come in, they get neglected and other people get hired. And, you know, but if you can put a system in place that can nurture those opportunities carefully over time and know what to do with each opportunity at each moment in the in the customer journey, then you're going to always have things happening and you can organize your growth in a very efficient way. But when people say, Well, I can get a customer relationship management system and I can send my own emails out and I can do all these things, you know, really it's a recipe for disaster because they don't do the work. They they get too busy, they get too distracted, and then everything gets neglected. The project management software gets out of date. Nobody's using it. The leads that came in and they spent money to get those leads, those get neglected and they don't end up closing those deals. Customer satisfaction goes down because follow through isn't happening on projects because things aren't happening on time. So, you know, I think one of the most important mental shifts to make before coming to a company like Lenker is to say, You know what? I realized that I have my lane and I want to have either, you know, like Assaf was saying, bring in a partner, share equity, and share the opportunity. Somebody who specializes in maybe running a business or I'm ready to partner with a company like Lenker to come in. And I know that the investment I make is going to lead to a lot of return on investment versus the earlier-stage people who haven't made those mistakes and haven't suffered the pain yet. They have kind of a mentality of scarcity. I need to hold on to those dollars. I can't spend this. I need to hold on to it, hold on to it, versus kind of an abundance mentality of, you know, I can manage my growth by bringing in smart people to, you know, help me identify my lane, make sure that I'm is efficient and effective in that lane, and then making sure that the other aspects of the business are not falling apart whenever I don't have time to attend to them. So these are the kinds of things we analyze. And, you know, we work with companies that are just starting out. You know, the company that Assaf and I were working on when it was just starting out, they were actually in the hole. And by the time Assaf left and we'd worked on it for ten years, they were doing over 14, 15 million in revenue with maybe 2000 leads a year and...
Assaf Arie:
:4200 leads the year that, I left, 2019.
John Lenker:
:Yeah, okay, so that's.
Ryan Bell:
:Wow.
John Lenker:
:You know, even better. And you wouldn't believe the hours and hours that Assaf and I spent going through that transformation and noticing when the priorities need to shift because the game doesn't stay the same for very long, that you're lucky if the game stays the same for six months. Because not only are you adapting to kind of the market situation as it changes in the economy and in this, that and the other thing, but you're also needing to adapt to the changing conditions of your own business as they grow. Anybody who's been a father of like a three year old child and, you know, suddenly they're four years, five. When they get to be six years old, it's almost like something completely different, you know, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, you know, what happened to this sweet little three year old? And now I've got this six year old, you know, and but then they're a teenager. You know, these things, the business grows and develops. And if you have not prepared yourself to handle the thing that life is going to throw at you within the context of that size of a business, you know, you're you're going to be kind of randomly trying to react to these things. And you know what? When you are doing things randomly and just reacting, there's a high probability you're going to make major mistakes. And sometimes those mistakes will destroy your entire business. And, you know, we work with businesses that are doing billions of dollars in revenue, not just startups. We have companies in the construction industry who are heavy equipment manufacturers, things like this that are doing billions of dollars and the same kinds of issues that the small entrepreneur is facing on kind of the small business level. These departments and major organizations, they're almost like little mini companies. You know, there's there's a staff, there's, you know, maybe a dozen people or so that are all trying to grapple with similar things. And so really the same principles of of research and analysis, making sure that you're understanding the conditions of the market, making sure that you're constantly evaluating your service offerings to make sure they that they're a good fit with what is needed in the market right now, constantly making adjustments and planning what am I going to be doing next quarter and next year? Those things need to be constantly happening. And, you know, again, we, the reason we exist and the reason that the construction industry is such a strong vertical market for us is because we we are dialed into that reality and we become kind of a safe harbor for these businesses that are focused on really succeeding and don't want to leave anything to chance. They want to think through and ensure that they have a solid game plan going forward and and that their ideas around growth are anchored in reality, that they're not just this fantasy of someday I want to be this big of a company and have this many employees and whatever, but it's anchored on real facts. The physics of business, the physics of business growth, that those ideas are firmly planted in their minds. And, you know, again, that's why we exist, is to make sure that we come around our clients at any stage of growth that they're existing within and assess what needs to happen now for the next segment of the journey and walk with them through that and make sure that they don't. You know, life's hard enough in business, just hard enough to make sure that nothing no unnecessary risks, no unnecessary inefficiency, not aiming the wrong direction. You know, you're not hurling the football down the field to a place where there's no receiver to receive it, right. We make sure that those kinds of things aren't happening.
Ryan Bell:
:Wow, that's, you did a great job of painting that picture of this kind of disorganized growth versus organized growth. And I love that. So let's let's talk a little bit more kind of about what exactly what you guys do like or, you know, I think the terms marketing and branding really kind of only scratched the surface. Assaf, I believe it was you that mentioned in our initial discussion that a business really can't grow rapidly by addressing a single challenge or problem, but that there must be a higher level kind of more holistic approach that looks at all parts and systems of a business to ensure there's alignment with branding and strategy. Can you guys both just kind of talk about your the philosophy and process that you've developed at Lenker and how you bring that to working with your clients?
Assaf Arie:
:And I'll start with was saying that, yes, absolutely. Most business owners and founders that try to find one problem and say, if I fix this, all of my problems are fixed. And experience tells us that it's never one thing. It's, you've got to look at it in a bigger view. You can look at the entire business 360 degrees and identify what doesn't work and where the opportunities are at. So the process that we developed, you know, historically and even how we you know, I hired John. You know, I hired him to do a job for me, not to think with me. I hired him to back in 2012 to, you know, brand us and get us to market and John, historically does, you know, think on a deeper level. He, if we were to hire anyone else, we would have got a brand and maybe a go-to market strategy. But John likes to dive in, and at the time I didn't really understand it properly. And when I joined, when I joined Lenker, that's where we developed. You know, we're not going to just respond to our fears anymore. We're not going to be hired to build someone's website. We're not going to be hired to run someone's, you know, Google ad account or social media or, you know, to run some PR activities. We're going to be hired to analyze the business with our clients. Get get them to see their business in a view that never looked at before, because we get that a lot. And then from there, develop the plan, the strategy and the tactical plan of how to activate everything that we identified as an opportunity. So that's our approach, which is different than how you typically hire a marketing company. Hey, I need a new website. Because when we try to respond to those, they get a beautiful website, but they don't know what to do with it, or they want someone running a campaign. Okay, what happened after they run a campaign? John talked about it earlier today. You know, managing pipeline hits, it's so crucial and it's so crucial if you don't know what to do with the inbound leads, you know what you'll say? I have crappy leads. Get me better leads. No, you don't have crap leads. You don't know what to do with them, right? You give up too soon. You don't know how to convert them to good leads. You don't know how to get referrals out of them, even if you can't help them. And if you do it, and if that is identified as an opportunity, you know how to you develop tools that help you take those crappy leads and turn into very, very profitable leads. And you know, one of our clients, the roofing company, they'll take, Hey, I got a shingle need to get nailed in. And, you know, nine out of ten contractors give up on it. Guess what? Storm hit somewhere in the last three years. That $75 job or, you know, $300 job turns into $35,000 roof replacement, sometimes siding, sometimes windows, stuff, metals, you know, metals. They get damaged with two inch hail. Sometimes the homeowner doesn't even know, like, I don't know, there was some dings on it. So, you know, learning how to convert those opportunities and not just give up. Because you pay a lot of money for those leads, you know, not knowing how to manage that pipeline and utilize the pipeline over time. Understand that even if there's nothing, you can help that person. Now, and again, if we're staying in a roofing industry and you're live in the Midwest or, you know, Central, the US, you're going to have tornadoes. You're going to have hail. At some point, they're going to get damage guaranteed, maybe a year from now, maybe five years from now. They go in your CRM, there's a storm hitting their area. Three years from now, they're a lead. And there, that's a roof replacement. That's a lead that you would have paid $500 to get and you got for free because they're in your CRM. So that's money. Knowing that every person who calls you can give you their email address that says money, even if there is nothing I can do for them now. Be nice, be polite, be helpful, be resourceful, and keep their information and know how to follow up with them. They will turn into money.
Todd Miller:
:Do you suggest for folks like that, that you do some sort of ongoing, you know, tickler campaign, e-newsletter on a monthly basis? I mean, something to stay in front of them as well? So you continue to build that that brand recognition, that implied integrity and everything.
Assaf Arie:
:Hundred percent. And the average contractor sends once a month or once a quarter. Hey, buy my windows, hey buy my roof, buy my roof. Ready to buy a roof? Nobody is ready to buy a roof. So so our advice is to be, again, be resourceful, give them tips, give them DIY, give them things they can do themselves. So they want to consume your content. Because if they're going to consume your content and consume your brand, if they hear of someone that need help, they may refer you, you know, once in a while you throw some, you know, good call to actions about referrals, about specials, about storms that happen. You know, in that case, you know, other, you know, concrete contractors. Again, we've in the concrete world, we've done, you know, backyard ideas, you know, DIY maintenance ideas, things like that. Just anything around that that is close, that is a cousin of the trade you're doing to keep relationship with them. And then, you know, that's how you get them to not turn you off. But most of the emails you get are buy now, buy now, buy now. Nobody's going to buy now because you wave a roof in front of them or a kitchen in front of them. But if you give them content to enjoy, then yes, they will. They will come back to you when they're ready.
John Lenker:
:And this is really where having a balanced approach to solving a problem is really important and that it takes sometimes multiple people with multiple skill sets to come together to be effective at what Assaf was just speaking about. Because just having a system in place or just in a newsletter. "Oh just send this, send that." if you have no understanding of the psychology of a buyer, or if you don't understand that when people are going online, they're not looking to be sold. They're looking to explore and learn and understand. If you don't understand anything about how people learn, how can you educate them about your value proposition and why you're the vendor that should be chosen? You're the contractor amongst all the available possibilities that they want to call when that hailstorm comes or when they want to, you know, to replace their ugly driveway with decorative concrete or when they want to do their kitchen remodel. What is it that you have done? And really, it, you know, having somebody on the team that understands human nature, human factors, the psychology of building a relationship, Why do people like you or dislike you? What are the dynamics around that? Because if you know what makes people like you, you can have your systems and your your campaigns closely parallel the human to human dynamics that we have that we all kind of know by instinct. You know, when you walk into a room at a party or some gathering, you know, some people are very attractive to others and engage with others very well. And people want to approach them and speak with them. And, you know, let's be friends. Let's get together for coffee sometime. I really liked you. Others are like, oh, my gosh, that person came up to me and they were bothering me. I couldn't wait for them to leave. You know what? What makes that difference in impression? And, you know, one of the things that that, you know, we haven't talked a lot about so far in this podcast, but but why is brand important to a contractor? One of the things that we we find often is the case is that people in the construction industry, they like, yeah, you know, I know brand is important. I have to have a nice logo, whatever. You know we, you know, I came up with the tagline myself, you know, they think it's just about kind of this image that that is, you know, graphic and and, you know, you know, brings to mind thoughts of a certain kind of tone or something like that. But in reality, a brand is so fundamental to a business, and having a strong brand is so essential for success, because really what a brand is, it's what people believe about you. It's the impression that is formed in the minds of the people in the market about why you have any value and what value you can bring to them. And really a brand is a story that that people have been told that they've grabbed onto for good or for bad, and you become known for certain things. You're the guy who always follows through on his commitments. I heard my neighbor had, you know, replace the concrete, you know, on their driveway. And I heard that the person who was on site found a problem that, you know, if they hadn't fixed that, it would have led to water damage in my house. But they didn't even charge me. They spent a half an hour on it. And because of what they did, that driveway is going to last a lot longer. I heard about that. And I want to have the concrete contractor who is thoughtful and who is intuitive and who cares about me, and not just after the driveway looks nice and they've paid me and they're gone, but they're thinking about what happens to me as a customer after they're gone. I want the company with that storyline to be the one that I hire, right? That's branding. It's reputation, it's what people believe about you. And when we go into a market and we're helping a client, you know, we don't work with any of their competitors, no matter how much money is offered to us. When we're going in there to help you become the undeniable solution in your market and the brand that your audience has no trust and love. I mean, that's that's one of our slogans, right? We're doing that so that you are head and shoulders above the competition in terms of the way your brand projects itself, in terms of the way you follow through, to strengthen your reputation through every opportunity so that you get those five star Google reviews. And when you don't, you're on it and you fix it and you make it right because you understand that no matter how much it costs you to make something right, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the goodwill that's built. When people see that, you really stand behind your work. So branding and reputation and the impression that is formed, it is so fundamental to your success. It's truly tragic that most, and I would say most, because it really does seem like most people in the construction industry, they really kind of minimize and diminish the importance of spending time on branding and on your messaging and on creating this storyline that makes people believe that you are the preferred vendor, you're the preferred contractor. If it sounds like I'm passionate about it, I am, because I know that it can make all the difference in the world between success and failure for so many of these businesses that are out there.
Ryan Bell:
:What? So I'm a brand, I love branding, too. I don't know that I'm as passionate about it as you are, and but I love the way you talk about it. I think a topic on a lot of contractor's minds is the labor shortage. What do you think branding, what ability is there for branding as far as telling the the company's story and attracting good installers or employees? Is there a? See, I can't think of how I want to word this, but I think I think you know, what I'm asking. Is there an opportunity there for branding to help solve this labor shortage issue?
John Lenker:
:Well, there's a really important insight in your question, and it's something that a lot of people don't think very carefully about, and that's that you have different audiences that you're trying to influence. And so branding isn't just about, you know, new customers and new business. Branding is also about, you know, in a tight labor market where really a lot of the labor force can pick and choose who they work for, why would they want to work for you? And the reason they want to work for you is because, you know, I've heard you're the company where you care about your employees and you nurture them and you're not just trying to protect your margins at all costs and keep, you know, all the profitability for yourself. But you've got a profit sharing plan. And, you know, the the foremen and and the journeymen and the people who have skills. You've created a culture in your business where they're not just trying to hold on to that knowledge for themselves because you're afraid that, you know, if they share and nurture somebody else's knowledge, that maybe they'll lose some of their own credibility. No, you're the business that people advance because they nurture others, because they do knowledge transfer, because they take people who are younger under their wing and make sure that they develop the experience necessary to deliver a consistent, solidly superior work product for customers across the board. That's branding. Also, you know what else is branding? What your banker thinks of you is branding. You know, how do you go and and make an impression when you're trying to raise money or fund some kind of expansion or to buy some new equipment? Why would they say yes to you? Is it just about having a solid financial plan? Sure, that's part of it, right? Because we do that a lot. We work on business plans, we help people get loans and we we prepare everything. So they go in there and they're a very strong position. But more than that, there's the impression that the banker has of you. Can I believe that this is the kind of company that's going to be around for the long run? Can I have confidence in this person? All of that is branding. So I would say that, you know, there are many aspects of branding and you put your finger on one of the most important, is valuing the people that work for you and having them not just hear those words come out of your mouth, but they have it reinforced at every turn. They see you investing, they see you being generous, they see you looking out for them. They see you standing in the way when when there is trouble ahead. The you know, they're not there. They're taking the brunt of it themselves. And they're doing everything in their power to give you, you know, the most safe environment to work in. You know, these are the things that are going to make people flock to you. And that can become a super, super competitive advantage of you. If you're the one that everybody wants to work for. I mean, just think about how powerful that is. And, you know, I just want to take this moment to say that, you know, because we do work exclusively with only one company who competed in a geographical area, We try to be very careful in in working with a company that truly is determined to be the market leader. And maybe it doesn't happen overnight. You know, maybe they're, you know, $20 million behind in annual revenue, you know, the market leader. But in five years, that's where they want to be. We've got a client right now that is on their way there to supplant the current, you know, market leader who's been there for years and decades to supplant them in their particular industry. And it's because of the mentality and mindset of the founders. They're determined to win. They will make the necessary changes. They will do whatever it takes. They're going to listen. And those are the ones that grow, the ones who think they already have all the answers and they don't need anybody's advice. And, you know, those those people eventually are going to not have a business. And the day they hurt themselves, the day they break an arm or hurt their back and they can't be out there running around on all those job sites, the entire thing collapses and they lose their entire investment. And that's it, it's kaput for them.
Assaf Arie:
:I want to jump in quickly and clarify a market leader. Market leader is not necessarily the biggest, especially not in construction, as many companies that do hundreds of millions of dollars and break even at the end of the year. I think that being the market leader is being the innovator. Would be the one that employees want to work for and be the ones that customers want to hire. And you may not be able to put them on the schedule, you know, as soon as they would like to be on a schedule because you're only that big, but they will choose you and they'll stand in line just like people stood in line for Apple products for many years, not knowing if they weren't going to get one at the end. And I think that's being the market leader is being that, you know, being innovator, versatile, flexible, know how to change and move with the market and adapt to it, adapt to it in one hand and lit it in the other. So pull it a little bit to where you want the market to go and adapt to it because some things are out of your control. That's engineering for you. And be a place that people want to work. I mean, those are your best ambassadors, right? And it all comes as part of your brand. If your brand is around innovation. If your brand is around, you know, we care for this is a family. But not just saying it, but acting it. Actually doing it. You'll see, we saw when I was in the concrete shop and John was, you know, Lenker was a vendor for us. It's a, finding finishers, it's difficult. And being a non-signatory shop, being a nonunion shop, and we don't have the benefits that the union offers. It was hard to attract talent and it took a few years. And, you know, when I joined, we had, I think it was 17 people total, so 10 field guys. And when I left, there was 100 field guys and it was always, you know, the saying in our office, it's hard to get help. Help was how we referred to to labor. It's hard to get help. Yeah, it's hard. But yet we move from from 10 to 100 field guys and some gals too, in a form of seven years in a tight, very, very tight labor market. Very, very tight labor market. So a lot of it was, as you see with time goes, is you see a lot of union people because they're all friends of each other and you see the union guys coming to work for us and they give up all the great benefits that the union has to offer. And we had some benefits too. We had medical, we had even 401k matching, no profit sharing, a little bit of bonuses here and there. But the culture was that we care, we listen, we knew them in first-name basis. We showed up in the job sites, we showed it. We care about them, about the client, and not just about the profit, but it's important to care about the profit. But I think that the profit ends up being there when you do everything above it, right? It's the, that's why I call it the bottom line. You can't make the bottom line from the top, right? So everything has to be right, including everything we talked about and way more for you to get that bottom line. It's a result of everything above it. It's a result of everything above it. That's how we view it.
Ryan Bell:
:Do either of you have any thoughts about AI specifically, I guess? But any new technology that's kind of on the horizon and how it will influence marketing over over the coming years?
Assaf Arie:
:No, zero thoughts. No, I'm joking.
Todd Miller:
:My mind is blank.
John Lenker:
:Well, it's like anything else. I mean, any time there's a new tool that gets introduced into, there's actually a technical term in economics and especially in manufacturing. This term is called input substitution. So think of any kind of process where something is being produced. If there is a new innovation that can replace a component of that process and make it more effective and efficient and reduce cost, if a competitor doesn't adopt that new component within a very short period of time, they will cease to be competitive and they will lose market share. So you have to substitute that input into the system, that new thing, to ensure that you stay competitive. So in the case of AI, a lot of people are worried, well, you know, this is going to, you know, reduce the number of people that can get jobs. You know, people are going to lose their jobs because it is going to take over. And you know what? That's probably true in a certain sense. But I think primarily that's going to happen to people who bury their head in the sand and are willing to adopt the new technology and substitute this new input. In our case, in our consulting practice, for example, we use, we are completely committed to AI, meaning that we are going to be very closely monitoring the development of the AI, that we're going to be completely familiar with every aspect of our business that AI influences. And we actually have a weekly AI team meeting where we discuss the latest things and cross-pollinate ideas. But really what we tell our people is this isn't here to replace anybody's job. This is here to take your ability to produce and multiply it by by eliminating things that that are not important for you to be doing anymore so that you have more time to be doing the things that only a human being can do. And so this is something that we're leaning into. It's something we're embracing, but it's actually helping the thing that makes us human more powerful. And it it leaves more room in our schedule to do the things that are uniquely human. So it becomes a kind of a wonderful thing for us, and we're super excited about it. But, you know, again, it's not something that any one of us can on their own completely assess. I mean, we're a little bit like a think tank in our company. And so we're doing a lot of this work and it requires a lot of experimentation and refinement and, you know, getting better and better and better so that when clients come to us, we can help them, you know, really capitalize on this kind of technology to be efficient and to be more effective. And so we're really advocates of the idea of understanding the strengths of AI and incorporating them into your business in a way that can, you know, make you more effective and efficient. And to really not given to fear mongering that this is going to eliminate jobs. But lean in and be one of the people, be one of the companies that can leverage it so they stay relevant. And this is what I would encourage everybody listening to do is lean into it, look at it as your friend, and find out how you can use it to complement the work you're doing so that you become even more productive.
Assaf Arie:
:Yeah. And you know, I'll take it back to when farmers started to use animals for farming, it didn't replace the farmer. It just evolved the work and gave them more output. And later those animals turned into heavy machinery. You know, it didn't replace the farmers. Farmers still exist today, right? And they were here 2000 years ago and probably further further backwards than that. It's, an AI is is like that machinery for the farmer. Steve Jobs used to say bicycle frame of mind, right, about the Mac. It's a tool that will allow you to do more and probably better in areas that you have weaknesses compared to a machine, but it's not going to replace you unless you ignore it. So you can't ignore it. You need to adapt it. We made a decision at Lenker that we're adopting it and offering it to clients. And there's some phenomenal tools that clients in the construction industry can use. From chat bot to, you know, video production. Those are things we're playing with right now for some of our clients. It's phenomenal, it's not going anywhere. Doesn't matter what happened. Even if it's destructive, it's not going to go anywhere. We're past that point. So our best chance is to adopt it. And then, you know, I always say hope is not a strategy, but hoping it's not going to destroy us, because if it's going to, it's already past that point. But yeah, it's a phenomenal tool, it offer. It extends us and our ability. So whatever we can do yesterday with AI, we can do more tomorrow.
John Lenker:
:And the AI made us say that before we came out of the podcast.
Ryan Bell:
:It's taking over already. Well, guys, we're getting close to kind of wrapping up the end of our scheduled time here today. This has really been great and very insightful. Before we kind of close out here, is there anything that we haven't been able to cover yet that you'd like to share with our audience?
John Lenker:
:Well, I would just say, you know, it's one thing to have confidence and believe in yourself. And that can be a double-edged sword. Believing in yourself can lead you into, you know, climbing that mountain and conquering it. But relying too much on yourself can also cause you to not listen to sound advice, to not be cautious based on the input of other people. So it's really important to, you know, kind of go back and forth in your own mind as your weighing, you know, charting your course and, you know, to to make sure that you're open to ideas. That you can process those ideas and make rational decisions, but that you don't stubbornly cling to whatever all of your original thinking was when you started your business, that usually leads to things collapsing and shrinking and being limited. It's scarcity thinking and like I said before, rather to be open to possibilities and to be optimistic and to be able to recognize when you're getting good advice and when you're seeing things in a way that maximizes your probability of success to to lean into those things and to not be afraid. And I really think it's possible for almost anyone who's got decent skills and a rational mindset to elevate themselves and to really climb. And our job is, you know, to work with the people that come to us who are seeking that outcome and to come alongside them and give us, you know, give them our best possible advice and help them with services that are tailored to their unique situation and needs in any given moment and to make sure that they're they're just doing the smartest possible things at every stage of their development. That's what we do. And that's our hope and intention for anybody listening to this podcast that, you know, you can, you know, put one foot in front of the other in the best way possible. And if we can help you with that, we we'd love to speak with you if you get in contact with us.
Assaf Arie:
:Oh, I'll add to that. Again, focusing on things that we haven't covered is, when you're in business, keep an open mind and don't get stuck into the trap of "that's how I've been doing it for the last 20 years. So that's why I'm going to do it tomorrow." It's okay to continue to do the things that work for you, but don't fall in the trap that this is how you must run your business tomorrow. We did mention a little bit of flexibility. So and then we talked about AI, right. And if you are going to adapt to something, you know, not great will happen to you in the next few years. You may become obsolete. So don't fall into the trap of, if it works for me for 20 years, it will work for me for the next 20 years. It will not. You know, if you work for 20 years and you haven't changed anything, you're a little lucky and, you know, do make some changes today so you can adapt for the current market.
Ryan Bell:
:Great advice. Well, before we close out, there's something fun that we like to do here on Construction Disruption. And that is a rapid fire question round where we throw out some kind of silly questions. Some of them can be serious, but your only commitment is to kind of give us a quick, short answer in response. And you have no idea what questions we have picked out for you. Are you guys both up to going through the rapid fire questions?
Assaf Arie:
:We'll give it a shot.
John Lenker:
:Sure.
Ryan Bell:
:Todd and I will alternate. Would you like to start with the first question, Todd?
Todd Miller:
:Absolutely. So we're going to ask them each to answer each question, I would assume. I think it will be interesting.
Ryan Bell:
:Yeah, I think they can both answer them.
Todd Miller:
:Okay, here's question number one. Would you rather be fluent in ten languages or be able to talk to animals?
Assaf Arie:
:Fluent in ten languages.
John Lenker:
:Fluent in ten languages.
Todd Miller:
:That's where I am too.
Ryan Bell:
:It's a tough one, isn't it? If you could travel... Sorry, Todd. Were you going to say sometihng?
Todd Miller:
:I don't want to know what my animals are thinking. And my parrot in particular was probably telling me not to feed them so much. Anyway.
John Lenker:
:Part of the reason is I want to believe that my dog, who I love, thinks only the best thoughts about me. And if I could understand the language, that image might be shattered.
Assaf Arie:
:My main reason is my daughter is three and a half years old and she's speaking three languages. So I need to catch up on the languages here.
Ryan Bell:
:Oh, wow. That's impressive. Okay, If you could travel back in time, what period of time would you go to?
Assaf Arie:
:I've got the emotional, serious one as a Jewish person, but I don't know if I can say it on the air here.
John Lenker:
:Let's keep it light. Let's keep it light, Assaf. Let's keep it light.
Assaf Arie:
:John, you go.
John Lenker:
:This is, you know, probably the thought a lot of people my age have is, if I could go back and speak to myself when I was, I think, ten years old and help myself understand what my priority should be at different stages of life and really be convincing, I think that would be the best thing I could do for myself. Hopefully I wouldn't have had to learn so many hard lessons.
Todd Miller:
:I like it.
Assaf Arie:
:I would. Well, I can't come with anything light here. But I, you know, my dad passed away when I was younger, and I would probably go back and experience some of those moments a little bit better.
Todd Miller:
:Hmm.
Assaf Arie:
:Because I don't have a lot of memories of my dad.
Todd Miller:
:Good stuff. Okay, question, is it my question yet? It is.
Ryan Bell:
:Yes.
Todd Miller:
:Question number three would you rather go skydiving or bungee jumping? So you got to basically fall from a high height? How would you rather do it?
Assaf Arie:
:Skydiving.
John Lenker:
:Same. Skydiving is a metaphor we use sometimes in our business. We did a video once about it.
Ryan Bell:
:Oh, nice.
Todd Miller:
:Oh, cool.
Ryan Bell:
:Nice.
Assaf Arie:
:And I think if something bad happens, you're for sure going to go really quick versus bungee jumping you may...
Todd Miller:
:You may bounce a little bit.
Ryan Bell:
:That's a good point. Could be a little more painful.
Todd Miller:
:Oh, I'd hurt the first, oh, hurt the second time, too.
Ryan Bell:
:Next question. If there's a spider in your house, do you kill it or set it free?
John Lenker:
:Depends on the situation. I've done both.
Assaf Arie:
:Is vacuum considered setting it free or killing it?
Ryan Bell:
:I don't know. Good answer.
Todd Miller:
:You're setting it free in its future either way.
Ryan Bell:
:Yeah. Yeah.
John Lenker:
:Not long, I think it was last year or the year before. I found a snake in the yard. And I brought it to a park about a mile and a half away and let it go there.
Ryan Bell:
:Oh, good for you. Not a fan of spiders or snakes. They don't survive in my house, I'll say that.
Todd Miller:
:Okay, next question. How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to Mariah Carey? And if you want to demonstrate, we're cool with that.
John Lenker:
:Mariah Carey has nothing on me.
Todd Miller:
:Haha, I love it.
Assaf Arie:
:I'll go as close as possible to one.
Ryan Bell:
:I'm with you.
Todd Miller:
:You guys are opposite ends of the scale.
Ryan Bell:
:If you had to eat a crayon, what color would you choose and why?
John Lenker:
:There's no way I'm eating a crayon.
Assaf Arie:
:I have to ask. What's a crayon?
Todd Miller:
:A coloring stick.
John Lenker:
:To color? Like what your daughter uses to color pictures. Draw pictures with color.
Ryan Bell:
:Made out of wax.
Assaf Arie:
:Oh.
John Lenker:
:Assaf's from Israel.
Assaf Arie:
:Yeah. Yeah, I'm from Israel. So, you know, it's a brand I don't know is a nickname. Red, for sure.
Ryan Bell:
:Red. Why?
Assaf Arie:
:It's a powerful color. And if something is going to come out of me, it could better be red.
Todd Miller:
:Okay.
Assaf Arie:
:You'll get my mouth dirty with red. And I look like, you know, people will be intimidated.
John Lenker:
:I hope none of this actually makes it to the show.
Todd Miller:
:Oh, it's all in there, believe me. Final question, a little more serious. What would you most like to be remembered for?
John Lenker:
:Inspiring people to live deeper, more meaningful lives, and elevating themselves to their highest potential.
Todd Miller:
:Cool.
Assaf Arie:
:A good father.
Todd Miller:
:Love that one, too. Good deal.
Ryan Bell:
:Both great answers.
Ryan Bell:
:Well, we need to recap our challenge words. We were all successful, actually getting them in pretty quickly. Todd, you're challenge word?
John Lenker:
:Did Assaf say his?
Ryan Bell:
:Yes, several times, twice.
Todd Miller:
:At least twice.
Ryan Bell:
:Assaf, your word was?
Assaf Arie:
:Itching.
Ryan Bell:
:Itching. John, your word was?
John Lenker:
:Wanderlust.
Todd Miller:
:Love the way you worked it in; that was good.
Ryan Bell:
:Todd, your word was?
Todd Miller:
:My word, I worked it in before you even announced challenge words. Do I get extra credit for that? Probably not. Hippopotamus, hippopotamus.
Ryan Bell:
:Well done. And my word was reverberate. Usually I wait till the last minute to get mine in, but I got it in there pretty quick.
Todd Miller:
:Talking about the challenge words?
Ryan Bell:
:Yes. When there's an opportunity, you have to pounce on it. You can't wait.
Todd Miller:
:Hey, there's, there's something to that.
Ryan Bell:
:Well, John and Assaf, this has been a real pleasure. For folks who want to get in touch with you or learn more about what you do at Lenker, how can they most easily do that?
John Lenker:
:Well, the easiest way if you want to follow up on the show, is go to lenker.com. That's L-E-N as in Nancy, K as in King, E as an Edward, R as in Robert. Lenker.com/cd for the name of this podcast.
Ryan Bell:
:Awesome. And are you both on LinkedIn?
John Lenker:
:We are. And there are links, I think, on our website to our LinkedIn profiles as well.
Ryan Bell:
:Wonderful.
Assaf Arie:
:For me, just my name is Assaf Arie and you'll be able to find me. John Lenker to find him on LinkedIn and connect there.
Ryan Bell:
:Perfect, perfect. We will leave links to all that in the show notes. Well, thank you so much, both of you again. And thanks to our listeners for tuning into this episode of Construction Disruption with John Lenker and Assaf Arie of Lenker. Please watch for future episodes of our podcast, we are always blessed with great guest. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or YouTube. Until the next time we're together, keep on disrupting and challenging designers, builders, and remodelers to better ways of doing things. Don't forget to have a positive impact on everyone you encounter. Make them smile and encourage them, two simple yet powerful things we can do to change the world. God bless and take care. This is Isaiah Industries, signing off until the next episode of Construction Disruption.
Ryan Bell:
:Intro/Outro: This podcast is produced by Isaiah Industries, a manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building products.