The power to drive real change comes when every single person in the business feels that they are extended members of the advocacy team - but what are the principles that underpin a credible and impactful advocacy strategy?

Today, Becky Willan is joined by Char Love, Global Director of Advocacy at Natura&Co, whose subsidiary brands include Avon and The Body Shop. Char has a track record of working with sustainable business - co-founding corporate sustainability thinktank VOLANS and later launching B Lab UK, to help businesses on the journey to becoming certified B Corps. Char’s new role in advocacy with Natura&Co has seen her developing and embedding the principles of  Authentic, Ambitious, Agency, Allyship, Activism into their advocacy strategy. 

Do you want to learn how to build a purpose-driven business from Given, the consultancy that’s helped some of the world's largest organisations become purposeful? Download the Insiders’ Guide to Purpose HERE.  

This is an AI transcript, they are usually pretty good, but apologies for any typos.

And embrace radical collaboration to solve complex, interconnected challenges. Before I speak with Sally, let's take a look back at her career.

A decade or so ago, Sally's commitment to purpose landed her in the firing line of a serious threat from those who stood against her efforts to drive collaboration between businesses.

Calling this out for Breaking UK competition law.

Well, it all started when she was a student studying the life forms found in Manchester Ship Canal

However, Sally's team came up with a plan to rejuvenate the ecosystem, and after many months of concerted effort, they were able to introduce trout into the clean waterways.

I sort of decided to leave consultancy and was hired in a new role at Forum to build our work with business.

So Sally, welcome to the show.

Sally: Thanks, Becky. Good to be here as this is a podcast, it's all about purpose. We always start with asking guests about their organization's purpose. So what's forum for the future's purpose, and what does that really mean in practice

So that's our purpose, it’s to accelerate progress towards that future. And we do that by focusing on three, what we call transition spaces. So transitions that are underway at the moment that could create. Help create that just and regenerative future, but equally could be what we would describe as a shallow transition, might lead us to a slightly better version of what we have today.

But worry only won't allow us to respond to these big urgent challenges and those transition spaces are. Food where we're doing a lot of work on regenerative agriculture energy, where we're doing a lot of work on the transition to renewable energy. And then the third transition space we have mixed that Apples and pears a little bit, is the purpose of business.

So very relevant for the conversation today. How might we as forum, contribute to really shifting the purpose of business so that the purpose of business is much more explicitly geared towards creating positive impact for people and the planet.

Can you explain systems thinking in a nutshell

It could be an ecological system such as the ocean. It could be an organization. An organization is a system, so, Really system thinking is just accepting that messy, complicated nature of the world around us, which then allows us to understand how to design for system change, the emergence of a new way of operating.

And really in terms of where we are at this moment in time, we urgently need systems change. So system thinking, understand the world as a set of interconnected systems that allows you then to design for system change. Systems are all around us.

Why is systems thinking and systems change so essential for any organization that has that ambition to be true? Purpose-driven?

I don't really understand, actually how it can be possible to be serious about purpose and not be serious about shifting systems, because otherwise your purpose is really much more about incrementalism and is locking in the existing system. So purpose led businesses. Are really clear about their ambition to shift the systems in which they operate in order to create the conditions in which they as a business will thrive into the long term, but the people and planets around them will also thrive.

I think one of the things that is really interesting is, I guess the extent to which that system up until fairly recently has been wired around a set of principles that are so at odds with a just and regenerative future. So really based on those sort of Freedman principles of profit maximization. So I don't know if there's any observation or insight that you want to share about the challenge of sort of rewiring the system as a kind of contextual piece for businesses that are trying to create that shift

We also, having said that, we don't have time to reinvent capitalism. We don't have time to reimagine a completely different global economy. The challenges around our climate crisis, biodiversity loss, structural inequality, which for me are the top three, they are urgent. And so what I think we need to be able to do is to demonstrate how is it possible to broaden the goals of the economic system if the goals of the economic system were to drive prosperity value creation for the many. If the goal of the system was to preserve and restore nature, and if the goal of the economic system was to deliver social equity for the world's population, what does that system then begin to do? And actually it is in transition at the moment. If you think about the massive scaling of nature-based solutions.

That is saying that the economy can work to protect nature. We think about standard debt instruments like loans. We now have sustainability bonds where you get a preferential, um, a preferential even interest rate according to how well you might be executing on your climate targets. So I would say to any business leader, the goals of the economy need to broaden to include specific goals around planetary health, people health, and that this transition is underway. Carbon trading is another example of how this economic transition is underway. So as a business leader, I would then be asking, what's my role and my business in this transition? How can I demonstrate new business models? How do I scale circularity? The circular economy is a broadened out version of our current economy. So whilst it seems really audacious to say, let's reimagine the goals of the global economy, it is happening. So let's just be more deliberate about it. Shine a light on these new economic models. And scale and accelerate them.

What they have done is really understood that health is linked to climate and actually if we can accelerate mitigation and accelerate adaptation when it comes to climate. Radically decarbonize. It will have a health benefit. So that's kind of the first attribute of any sort of system thinking organization is to understand the interconnectivity of systems, and in this case, to understand that health and climate are completely connected.

Climate health is manifest itself as a public health crisis. And so what Bupa have done, and we've worked with them on this, is they've launched a new strategy. They launched it at the end of last year, and it's got what you would expect. It's got, you know, ambitions to get to net zero. It's got ambitions around innovation.

And it's got this third pillar called regenerate. How might they regenerate nature? And for me that's really exciting because it, it's really demonstrating that they've made that connection and it builds on work that they've been doing for a while. So they have their Spanish business, Sanita. We've been working on tree health and cities for a while now.

If we improve tree health in cities, then. We not only improve the ability of the trees to absorb particulates and improve air quality, it's good for our mental health. And so what Bupa is beginning to do is to sort of demonstrate these, these winds at that kind of intersection of climate health. My second example in a, in a way, everyone does talk about Unilever, um, but the reason I've picked Unilever is because, They've always understood the dependencies of their operations on the systems around them, and understood that Unilever, on its own cannot affect systemic change.

One of the first things they did when they still had a fish business was to set up the Marine Stewardship Council, and they're still doing that. So that's just such a systems play is to say, right, we as Unilever, we're not gonna solve the overfishing crisis in our ocean. We're not gonna solve the palm oil challenge, but we actually can set up these independent organizations to work together collaboratively across the system and create deep systemic change. So that's kind of another feature of a systems changing organization. Understand those dependencies and really understand the need for system-wide collaboration.

And then my third example is Target the US retailer. So mainstream retailer touches millions and millions of Americans lives every day. And they have a relatively new strategy called Target Forward, which we helped develop with them. We used an early version of our business Transformation Compass, which is a sort of vision and guidance for adjuster and Regener business.

They've understood the need to not just deliver philanthropy in a traditional sense, but actually to really build the resilience and the long-term capacity of the system around them to prosper into long-term. And very specifically, what I mean by that is, Historically target have very active philanthropy, uh, for black owned community groups, particularly black owned enterprises.

And you know, that's great, but it's not enough cuz just simple philanthropy doesn't build resilience. And so what they've been doing more laterally is to work with these community groups, with these enterprise groups to share skills, to share expertise. And then what's really brilliant is. Black owned community enterprises are making goods and services.

Target is then giving them pathways to market to get into the store. That's a much more systems play designed to build resilience and the capacity to thrive in the long term in those communities.

Really interesting. So I guess we've looked at this from an organizational level, but clearly there's a really important role to play for leaders within these organizations. So I guess, is there such a thing as a systems thinking mindset for leaders? And if so, how would you describe it?

Absolutely there is, and it's really interesting. We started to talk about mindset at forum about five or so years ago, maybe more. At that time. I hadn't really internalized the work of Donella Meadows as one of the early systems thinker when she talked about leverage points for systems change. She talked about, you know, decades ago, the deepest lever for change is our mindset.

It's, you know, our beliefs, our values, the stories we tell ourselves, our narratives. And, you know, I just hadn't really internalized that until I began to realize that at Forum, like you had given, Becky created some really ambitious sustainability strategies and then also created blueprints for sexual transformation from cotton industry through to, um, shipping.

I mean, so many different sectors. And then I was just noticing that nothing was really changing. There were some exceptions. Um, that then made me realize that actually in much of our work historically, we hadn't paid enough attention to mindset. We hadn't paid enough attention to was there a real willingness at board level to do things differently, and oftentimes there wasn't.

And so these wonderful strategies, organizational strategies, sexual strategies, They just stayed as lovely words on a document and didn't really make the light of day. It was at that moment I thought, oh yeah, okay. That's the common differentiator between all of these things that haven't quite delivered.

We use the business transformation Compass to really deep dive into mindsets and within the business transformation come cause we talk about four nested mindsets. So the risk mitigation mindset, the do no harm mindset, so do good mindset, which is kind of more aligned with the principles of net positive.

But where we really spend a lot of our time unpacking and trying to make accessible is what I would call a just and regenerative mindset. And the reality is these mindsets are nested and we kind of move between them, you know, almost on a daily basis. But our hypothesis is that if every leader, every person in a position of power and authority, and leverage in a system where to really embrace a just and regenerative mindset, we would start to make real progress because a just and regenerative mindset is about recognizing the urgency of planetary boundaries. It's recognizing need to create and distribute value differently. It's recognizing that as humans, we are inextricably linked with nature, recognizing our universal access to thrive.

And underpinned by the desire for systems change. So our mindsets literally could change everything.

And so I, I wondered what having sort of run that for many years, what, what are the top three things or the top few things that you think every leader should be thinking about when it really comes to building that capability for systems change within their organization? The

We use Bill Shops Three Horizons model a lot in our work, but that ability to hold the H one, you know, you've got to keep the lights on. You've got to keep payroll, you, you've gotta be solvent. You need to be able to pay people. So to hold the horizon one simultaneously. Hold horizon three. What is that North star of just and regenerative in in our language?

What was that big ambition? What, what is that strategy that's going to. Shift the business and shift the world around it. And then as well as H one, H three, you need to hold H two. Where are the innovation pathways that take us from today to where we need to be? And holding those three timescales is really, really important because it allows you to meet the financial needs of the business, but to be plotting towards that North Star.

So that would be the first, and it's hard. It's really hard. The second is, To see yourself as part of a system. By that I mean to understand who else is in this system. Oh yeah. It's government, it's civil society, it's nonprofits, it's communities, and to engage in those different perspectives to really drive systemic change, the whole system ultimately needs to orientate towards the new goals of a system.

And then number three, and again, I've learned this the hard way, is yes, work with activating forces. So work with those. Individuals. There's organizations that share your vision for systemic change, but you also need to work with resisting forces because in a system that's shifting, and we see this right now in energy with oil and gas, those resisting forces, if you ignore them, become very, very powerful.

And this isn't my quote, I dunno where I heard it, but the closer you get to a system shifting, The harder those forces really begin to resist, and you, you saw it with the switching presidents in the us so it's really important to acknowledge that there are resisting forces and to engage with them no matter how hard it will be, because otherwise they'll get powerful and they could just derail the whole thing.

All

So can you offer any insight into. Some of the more organizational design or, or kind of governance implications and where you've seen businesses that you work with rethink some of those things to make the organization more effective at being able to respond to all of this.

Hard governance, so you know, legal, finance, risk, but you also need soft governance, which is about how do we make decisions? Who has power, who has accountability? So, How are we showing up when it comes to justice, equity, and diversity? How do we really think about being truly participatory? So sometimes soft governance can derail everything if you don't get it right.

Um, and there is that phrases, and you know, culture can eat strategy for breakfast and it's really true. What I see in organizations that are serious about driving systemic change, they begin to pay a lot more attention to soft governance, but they will also. Pay attention to advocacy and at this moment in time, I think this is an underdeveloped muscle of the private sector, if I'm honest.

Private sector can do a lot, but ultimately we are going to need an enabling context in terms of policy, legislation. So government has got an incredible role to play and you know, they've kind of been MIA really in my view, apart from perhaps the EU doing amazing stuff. I would say that look at your soft governance, but also look at your advocacy and your collaboration.

And I think the private sector needs to be a lot louder about what it needs from government to really execute properly on some of these plans. Because I see many organizations hitting the limits of their own risk tolerance because there'll be a point where actually forward investment in new technology.

It's too risky because the policy isn't there to enable it to scale. So I think

And I'm curious about sort of how you convince business leaders to work together sometimes, you know, with their arch rivals when that goes against so much of the established doctrine in, in the commercial world. So how, how do you make that

And really practically about oh seven years ago, We convened something called the Beauty and Personal Care Accelerator, where for, I think it was the first time Target and Walmart worked together. At that point in time, both organizations rightly were wanting to drive higher sustainability standards amongst procurement, particularly for beauty and personal care products.

So in the US. There isn't a reached legislation that we have here in Europe, and actually it can be a bit of the Wild West in terms of what ingredients go into these products. Both organizations wanted to really up weight the sustainability criteria, but they were going about it very differently, and so if you are supplying and into Target Walmart, it was suddenly really very confusing and potentially really expensive.

What we did is just really had a simple conversation that said you're both facing the same challenge and actually if you come together, you'll probably save money. You'll get there a lot

One of the projects

We've worked really hard to create a neutral space where the really big, powerful actors in the ag system, so the Cargills, um, the brands, the retailers that you know, have got significant impact in footprint in the food system. Are talking literally in the same room as Bipo led pharma community groups, the Latino Farmers Association, the Intertribal Ag Group.

So these, in other words, lesser heard voices that have been missing from the conversation.

So it's, it's fascinating to hear that that's such an important part of, of this particular collaboration.

It needs redesigning. And then in growing our future, we also ask, you know, practically how can we support these lesser heard voices to participate? You know, if you are a small farmer, coming for a one day workshop is a big old deal and you, you know, having access to finance is an issue. And so growing up Future, it's funded by the Walmart Foundation and we also have additional funding by the VF Foundation, which is specifically designated to support the participation of the smaller, lesser heard organization. So you know, we are able to recompense them financially, to enable them to participate, which is such an obvious thing to do, but doesn't happen in many cases.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks again to Sally. A fascinating conversation with loads of brilliant insights. So if you want to be a systems Thinking purpose leader, here are a few things that I've taken from the conversation. Systems thinking is an essential part of purpose-driven leadership because we need businesses to positively influence the systems that they're part of, not only within their four walls.

Seeing yourself in the system and understanding the perspective brought by different players is a crucial first step. Yeah, recognize that you might have the best strategy in the world, but the underlying assumptions and belief systems of leaders in your organization can get in the way of making it happen.

Think deeply about the mindsets you need people to embrace if you're going to be successful. I, soft governance as in how you make decisions. Collaboration and advocacy are all key ingredients and have been big themes in so many purpose and conversations. Building the capacity and the capability to do this is an essential part of the task.

If you'd like more practical advice on building a purpose-driven business with brilliant insights from people like Sally, download our insiders Guide to purpose@giveanagency.com slash insiders guide.