“I refuse to hate myself in any way… I hope women reclaim ageing as a gift.”

When everything shifts at once, home, body, identity, what does it take to rebuild a sense of safety and self? Leila Ainge and Emma Seville explore menopause, midlife transitions, and the psychology of starting over.

In this episode of Psychologically Speaking, psychologist Leila Ainge speaks with menopause coach Emma Seville about navigating unexpected life changes, financial precarity, ADHD, and the psychological impact of midlife transitions. Together, they explore agency, belonging, and how women can reclaim ageing as a powerful, identity-shaping experience.

I refuse to hate myself in any way and I think that is a massive shift because when you

start to see things like my neck went and Wrinkles and stuff and you start seeing them and

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it's horrific because we're told it's horrific

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I'm just so sick of seeing all these ironed similar faces and the oh it just breaks my

heart a bit and I just hope there's a backlash and a women reclaim their aging as a

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amazing gift because what's the alternative be great and be loud

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Welcome to Psychologically Speaking with me, Leila Ainge.

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I'm a psychologist and coach exploring the way our beautiful minds work.

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In this new season, I'm working with a phrase that I've challenged my clients to embrace

this year, expect the unexpected.

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And perhaps you had an event or an experience that did not go to plan.

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Perhaps there was something wonderful or serendipitous that came about as a result.

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I'm really intrigued and curious about what happens when life throws us a curve ball.

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But more so what happens when we let that happen?

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I'm delighted to introduce Emma Seville, the voice and founder behind Your Menopause

Toolkit.

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She's got a substack and a coaching practice, rooted in evidence-based insight, lived

experience and a generous dose of wit and feminism.

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Emma is a peri-to-post menopause coach, nutritional therapist, and the creator of the

Happy Healthy Menopause Framework.

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So she brings together feelings and food and movement and sleep.

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And I really like her framing that it's much more about agency and understanding what's

happening in our body rather than powering through.

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So Emma, before we get into it, let me just say that menopause is probably a large

constituent of my own unexpected moments of the last five years.

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So I was absolutely delighted when you said that you'd come on to talk about your

unexpected moments.

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I do feel like menopause has a lot to answer for, We probably do give it a really hard

time.

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Welcome Emma.

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Oh, thank you, Leila.

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What a beautiful start.

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Thank you.

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my unexpected moment was about four years ago when I had a call from my letting agent to

say that my landlady was going to sell the house.

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I'd been in with my daughter for 13 years, all of her life as solo mum in Bristol.

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And so the repercussions of that and not um realizing how difficult it was to find

anywhere else to live, to the point where we were almost planning to go to my friend's

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house and sleep on her sofa.

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Yeah, it was terrifying.

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I even had to go to uh homelessness prevention in Bristol city, which was the most dismal,

sad, sad place.

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Yeah, it was a really traumatic time.

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But out of it, I've ended up somewhere, living somewhere else.

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Somewhere that Edie could stay at the same school, because she was halfway away from it

before, and I was the other side of it.

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And I have a garden and a dog, and yeah,

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going to talk about Peanut the Dog because it is of course Emma, tell us a little bit

about, I your pre-move days Bristol and who you are and where life's taken you.

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Yeah, so before I was doing massage and reflexology from the back room in the house that

we lived in before, as well as building up my menopause business and nutrition therapy

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kind of as a wellness coach, of, you know, trying to get some one-to-one clients.

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then, you know, I was working on a website, it was all kind of...

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planning it, I loved doing the massage, felt it very calming for me as well as for the

clients, had a nice little client base.

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Obviously we had COVID, so that messes things a bit as well.

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then, yeah, Edie was very happy, she was getting the bus to school, she had lots of

friends living really close by.

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I had lots of friends, quite supportive friends living close by.

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As a solo mum, like you need those people.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, so it was all good.

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The next door neighbours were really probably quite close to as bad as you could wish for.

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So I always bring myself back to that thought.

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If I miss it, I'd made the house my own.

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I loved, you know, I decorated every room.

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I changed everything that I was allowed to change.

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It was, you know, it was a real home and it was Edie's home.

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We had a cat that we loved very much who

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owned the street, and I used to run nearby, I go to the gym nearby, to start lifting

weights.

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I was really, you know, I had a really solid existence.

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And I always had a slight feeling that one day the house, you know, we'd lose our house.

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And I was also becoming aware of the changes in renting and how it's now.

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kind of you have to earn three times the rent and the rent had doubled over the time we'd

been there.

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So I was always a little bit scared of it happening, but it was at the end of November.

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It was practically a month before Christmas Day when I had the phone call.

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I knew they give you a month's notice.

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It's not a lot for oh

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a shock.

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And also they gave the job of telling me to the youngest person in the office.

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And I just burst into tears and I felt so sorry for her.

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like, why have you told...

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She just didn't know what to say.

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She didn't really say any of right things.

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Yes, it was all a crashing down and, you know, the responsibility for making sure that

Edie was happy.

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That was massive.

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there was this long time.

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felt like, looking back, it feels like an incredibly long time where I was...

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just paddling.

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also have to say that during this time my mum was dying.

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My mum was at end of life, in people's home.

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And it was my mum's name, Mary.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I was kind of dealing with that as well.

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was just, she was just fading fast.

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And she actually passed away a week to the day before we

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literally moved into a house here.

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I just want to take a moment to say that's such a huge thing to have happened on top of

another big, like we say these big life events, know, grief, losing a parent, midlife,

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which you're in, and you know, that uprooting of home, know, home is so central to our

safety and wellbeing and part of our, you know, you talk about

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your connections and your community, was that identity.

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Yeah, it was absolutely massive.

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I feel, I do think sometimes it was a bit so traumatising.

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I wonder if I have a bit of PTSD from it because I'm now, although we are, I love where I

am and when we moved in, it wasn't finished.

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So we were gonna move in at the beginning of January.

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And I'd already said, I can't leave this house until I've found somewhere else.

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Mm-hmm.

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worked out that they can't force you out for...

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But it got to that kind of point of having those discussions, which I didn't want to have

to have.

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And then, you know, really advocating for myself in a way I hadn't ever had to do before.

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example of that Emma.

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So I mean, I was quite intrigued really how, I mean, looking back now, it's probably

easier to think about how you did actually cope, but it sounds like advocating or advocacy

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was a bit of a coping mechanism at the time.

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Yeah, I think I just found myself having discussions and going into this incredibly sad

place full of literally homeless people and security guards walking around in stab-proof

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vests and staff crying in the corner because they couldn't help people.

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And I walk in and I look so middle class and so...

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uh

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You know, I know I look like people are looking at me, what the hell are you doing in

here?

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And it's like, because it's happening to everybody.

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And the lady that helped me said, I've just had a 65 year old guy who's lived in this

house all his life, his wife died and they want to sell it.

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And he can't afford to rent anywhere else.

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He's in the same position as you.

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And they haven't got anywhere to send him.

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There aren't any, you know, that kind of tragic.

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So I thought, well, know, um I'm young and I've just felt like the whole system was

heartbreaking.

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was all heartbreaking.

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And then having to go into town, I went to a meetup, like one of the lovely, it was real

work actually, it was a meetup.

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And then I had to leave early to go to the homelessness prevention office from this lovely

world of privilege to this act.

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you know, what was actually happening in my life.

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That's such a stark contrast.

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you're talking about, I mean, real work is a space created by Fleur Emory.

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And I would characterize that space as being full of quite very privileged individuals,

know, people who have time as a resource possibly and have some money, but also have moved

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through life and perhaps have some financial security.

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Yeah, yeah, potentially, potentially, potentially, not all of them.

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But then it is interesting, isn't it, how we can sit on the outsites of different social

groups and we can be in two different identities at the same time.

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can be in opposite worlds.

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Yeah, it's crazy.

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That's kind of where I sit in life, really.

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From the outside view, I'd be a very middle-class, health conscious, able to sustain

healthy living, um get enough sleep.

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all those good things, have a garden, talk about my greenhouse, albeit third hand.

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And all that.

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And then on the other hand, it could just crumble at any minute.

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And I'd be back to that point, you know, sort of thing.

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Yeah, it was quite a mad day that I remember walking around.

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You've gone to the real work meet up and then off to see the officer.

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oh

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one big, great big room in an office block in the centre of Bristol.

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It's a council, part of the council offices.

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And yeah, it's just, we've been in this really nice bar that was quite new and cool.

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And I have my nice denim jumpsuit thing on.

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yeah.

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I remember walking around there and then trying to find my way in, not knowing where I was

going.

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And then I went to the wrong desk and nobody's particularly patient because they're all

overworked.

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yeah, was massively.

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And I thought no one, no one I know will ever be in this situation either.

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No, I hope that the people I I knew weren't probably ever going

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you should say that, isn't it?

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Part of my background, I worked with a charity where we supported people who were

experiencing homelessness.

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So it was over, over two days.

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Well, gosh, yeah, it probably was two decades ago, giving away my age.

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But at the time, the advocacy work that was happening there was very much going into

corporates.

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and saying to the people who wanted to help, do you not believe for a moment that you are

different from these people?

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You know, we are all three months away from homelessness by people.

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That was, you know, quite a while ago and I wonder now whether precariousness has changed

because cost of living is so expensive now, it's proportionally more expensive.

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people leaving university now leave with higher debt levels.

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We're hearing a lot about that in the news at the moment.

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So if you think maybe 15 years ago it was three months you needed to stay stable, it's

probably, you know, you could probably just have six months of stability and still find

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yourself really struggling with the precariousness of, you know, temporary housing.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And more houses are being made into Airbnbs and less.

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And then more is just all going but bananas.

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It just feels really strange and I think we all feel that we kind of we drive around and

you see lots of housing being built.

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But there are people who don't have that safety or security of a place to call home that

they know they're going to be securing for six to 12 months at a time.

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tell me a little bit about how you moved through then.

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We've met you at a point where obviously you're right in it, you've got your month's

notice, you're bargaining in your own head or even with your agents think, you know, they

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can't chuck me out, I need to find somewhere else to go so that bargaining stage is

happening.

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ah But presumably something does happen because we now know that you are in a space and

you've got a new place.

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So how did that unfold?

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Yeah, so I was asking everybody, I posted on the local Facebook groups, I was sort of

really looking locally and stuck in that idea.

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And then my friend, so I now live in Portysed, which is along opposite Wales.

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So the Bristol Channel goes past.

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So it's very nice to be able to walk the dog along the coast path.

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And my friend, well, my old friend's moved here because her mum lives quite close by.

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but she wanted all her children to be able to walk to school.

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And we'd been to see them a few times and we used to come up in the car and park up and

walk along the coast path without, before we even had the dog, Edie and I, and think,

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wouldn't it be amazing if we lived here?

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Because I do love the fresh air.

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I'm quite a country girl at heart.

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I love being outside.

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then my friend just said, oh.

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Actually, one of my neighbours has just done up a cottage attached to her house.

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I don't know how big it is.

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It's really tiny, but I'm not sure if it's two bed or one bed.

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So I said, OK, OK, I do think for my son to need a separate bed.

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think we need we can do small, but I do need my own room, basically.

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And I wrote to my landlady.

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And I got my pen out and my paper out and I wrote her a letter and I described us and I

said, I've been living in the same house for 13 years, I've always paid my rent and you

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know, we would love your house and look after it, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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And then she wrote me back and she just said, we are going through Latin agent Emma.

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And my heart just fell because I knew you wouldn't fulfil the criteria as in having enough

money in their eyes to rent it.

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because even though it's so small, it's not cheap.

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um But then one of my friends stepped up and said she'd be a guarantor out of the blue.

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So I could rent it.

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That's what the greatest thing ever was that she said that.

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And I have had a guarantor for years and my sister's been a guarantor in the past.

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It was kind been on low wage scraping by.

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But that meant we could.

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then I dressed up as I thought if my friend would dress, who lives in Clifton.

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It's like the posh part of Bristol.

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I was like, right, idiot, we're going into that.

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And I'm telling them I'm renting that place.

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I'm not asking them.

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And that's another out of body moment.

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I walked in and I went, we want to rent this house.

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What do we need to do?

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And I sat down.

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And then we talked to a lovely letting agent, a really nice letting agent actually, and he

said that my landlady is really special, she is really special, I love her to bits.

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And he wanted someone really nice to move in there to look after her, because she's quite

elderly.

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And he was asking me all these questions about what I earn, and it was all really dismal

and bad.

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I was so small that it wouldn't even, you know, was kind of embarrassing to have that

conversation.

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But then I said, but my friend will be a guarantor.

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So I think it, you know, and then he was like, OK, we don't need to know anything else.

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I just need her details.

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And then we could move in.

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And then it was I got everything ready.

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I rang all the utilities.

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I sorted everything out over like two days.

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I started packing.

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I filled the back room with boxes.

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And then we got a message to say the house won't be ready in time.

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We've got to put it back a month.

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And then I couldn't work for that month because I'd filled the back room.

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my mum was in Bristol, so I was going to visiting her all the time.

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So I was all going on the background and I was just packing and packing and trying to keep

everything OK at home with Edie as well.

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And you know, cooking.

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she take the move?

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So how old is Edie?

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She, when we moved, was 16 now, so she must have been 13 when we moved.

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my friends got a daughter her age and they were in primary school in year one together and

they absolutely loved each other and they still love each other and she just lives up the

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lane.

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We had this huge collection, so lucky, and when we came to visit this place, it was a

building site, but we came...

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and said you can come and have a look if you like, yes please.

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And we walked in and out the back there's this amazing view and we were so stressed and

there's the thing about looking at the horizon, it's hard to down, doesn't it?

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And we just, both of us looked out of that window and we both went, look at the view.

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And it was from her bedroom window, what would be her bedroom?

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And it was just like, you know, was just, we loved it.

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And she's quite a country girl at heart.

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when we moved in for a good few months she kept saying, I can't believe we're not going to

go home soon, it feels like we're on holiday and we're going to go home, we're going to

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have to go home.

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And I think the neighbours, as I said before, where we lived before, just made life really

difficult, they were awful.

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And we were always a little bit on edge and I think we moved here and all that went, we

didn't even realise how much we were on edge with them.

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There were loads of good things moving here, I think, for her.

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I think it's harder now in a way because she wants to be able to reach her school friends

and they are a good, it's a good hour away to get into Bristol.

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So she's missing out a bit.

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but she's doing sixth form here.

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And then I hope she will make friends locally.

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So that will be all right.

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She's got job in the, you know, they call it the village.

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It's a little town.

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So there's lots of good things.

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I think for me, I've really hunkered down.

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think when the grief and everything, I've just thrown myself into work and...

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making the house nice and for a long time the garden was a therapy for me because it was

just they just laid turf on top of rubble so I took out the turf thinking I'd put plants

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in, no.

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I had to out tons and tons of rubble so it was like this whole labour of love that

continues.

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we, often say, we, as coaches, that getting perspective on situations is such a helpful

thing for us to do.

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And it's seen as such a mental task, like conceptually that we should try and move our

mental perspective, but you've physically changed.

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perspective, you know, your perspective out of your window has literally changed.

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And yet you're describing the impact that made almost instantaneously of lifting spirits.

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it really did.

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And we were very overlooked because we were in a little Victorian railway rail worker

cottage kind of cottage in Bristol.

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And it was on a hill, so we were overlooked from behind and in front.

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There was no feeling of being in the garden.

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It feels different, even though we're not really aware of it.

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You can still enjoy being in your garden, but didn't feel like we could stay.

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I don't know, it's funny, isn't it?

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was here, I might see the neighbour's face pop up as she hangs out, washing out, have a

nice little chat and then, you know, there's no one else around.

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It's really different.

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Yeah, I mean, it's the real, it's absolutely what we needed after all that.

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This could just be a bit bigger.

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Want more room?

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Always want more.

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Because that thing isn't that we always fill the spaces that we occupy.

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So it would happen.

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It would happen.

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You mentioned that you really hunkered down and threw yourself into your work.

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so I think I first was introduced to you possibly through real work.

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That would have been during the Covid years because that was when the original community

ran.

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I know it's reopened recently.

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And so what has changed with your business since you've moved?

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So I am now kind of aiming myself at corporate workshops online.

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So I have to be able to work from home because of the dog.

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And I want, I don't, I've found out at the beginning of last year, that I have ADHD.

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And then that was a huge, huge thing to find that out and realize.

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I'm now on medication, a year later, trying out some different things, I think.

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But yeah, I did find it really, really hard to do any work to start with.

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I couldn't concentrate.

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I couldn't, I didn't know where I was going with it.

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didn't, I'd try, I'd sit down to do it and just do something else, know, the whole

prevaricating and not being able to.

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focus and now I feel like I'm getting there and with on LinkedIn I'm trying to break that

and I've got some good responses so I feel like there's a possibility there and I have to

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be able to earn what I feel is a huge amount of money to make things work here and be able

to pay the rent and yeah so my mum left me a bit of money and I'm basically living off

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that which is not ideal because it would make a good down payment for

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house and safety and I'm really aware of the word safety it's like I don't feel like

there's any anymore everything feels

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really helpful for us to think about the cost of ADHD and precariousness.

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There's a body of work that has been done by a brilliant psychologist who's quantified the

cost of having ADHD over the life course.

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Yeah.

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for various reasons, you know, around executive function and ability to remember to pay

subscriptions and bills.

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You know, all of the stuff that, you know, if you look on social media, it tells you this

is classic ADHD.

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That's a different conversation.

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But there is evidence that, you know, the precariousness that comes and the financial

instability that comes with that.

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And it also

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then makes me think of Senil Muller Nathan's work and he wrote the book Scarcity and he's

an economist but he talks about the behavioural economics that exist when we don't have as

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much in our pocket as the person next to us and about the cost, the cognitive cost of

having to make different decisions because it's that exhaustion or tiredness that comes

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with having to always make a decision based on

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having less.

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Yeah.

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I've never thought of that.

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That's so interesting.

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I'd love to read that.

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I think that's been the story of my life.

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At the moment, I'm going to a gym, which is a small group training gym, because I find

lifting weights is just so lovely for my nervous system.

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And I'm getting really strong, but it's really expensive.

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And every day I have a panic about spending this money on it.

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Really.

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Yeah, every day.

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oh And I think, how did the other people manage to go here?

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And I must stop going, I've got to go to Pure Gym, this is ridiculous, I need to go to the

cheap gym.

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But I tried the cheap gym and I found it terrifying and overwhelming and too busy and it

got me in such panic, I I couldn't cope with it.

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So I'm like...

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opposite things going on there as you're talking.

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So one of them is the affordability choice.

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the, what can I afford to do?

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And the other competing thing there is the, where am I safe to do what I want to do?

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And where do I belong?

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And there's never an easy answer with those things.

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We all have to make difficult choices, but if you're someone's having to repeatedly and

consistently make the difficult choice.

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that erodes the safety, belonging, community that brings you peace.

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And that is the definition of precariousness, I suppose.

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And that doesn't help when you have ADHD because you lose what you need to thrive.

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I want to just pick up on something you said earlier, which was, you know, I have to

charge what I think is a large amount of money.

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oh

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earn, I think, yeah.

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uh

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and again it's this, Senor would say, he would say, our, depending on where we sit in our

viewpoint, our perspective on money changes, so what feels like a lot.

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And that's why we find it difficult to charge as women sometimes, is because obviously

we've been used to that inequity and pay levels.

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you know, it's entrenched.

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But then if you think about the type of career that you've had, so you've done therapy,

therapy charges by hour, usually for manual, I'm guessing you charged by service.

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And so there's quite a lot of mindset stuff there, isn't there around valuing time versus

hour, but rather than stepping into the what knowledge and overall benefit of living.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it's hard because I think when I've definitely got the superpower of picking up on

other people's feelings or disappointment.

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I don't know if that just comes from living with it all your life or especially as a child

and being a disappointment or whatever.

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if I feel like that.

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And I know what's going through people's heads often, they're just like, oh, how can you

that much an hour?

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You know, and there's not much other thought going on if people haven't worked for

themselves or they haven't done that and they don't get it.

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Yeah, and I'm like, I'm sorry.

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I don't know.

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Yes, yes, I'll do it cheap, I'll do it cheap, but it's fine, it's fine.

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And I keep getting that scenario.

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just, I don't know how to get past that really.

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I don't know, because I'm also I'm 55 and I've been feeling like this all my life.

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It's quite difficult, I think.

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Maybe if you got diagnosed when you were, and I sort of hear women of 30 saying I've just

been diagnosed and fair enough, that's 30 years.

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I'm also like, I've been through all these life stages and all these things.

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And the thing I've never been any good at is earning enough money, but I'm not in any

debt.

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I don't owe anyone any money and I didn't but even before I got my mum's money I didn't

owe anyone anything.

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live, I'm very good at kind of knowing what's in the bank and not overspending it.

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Apart from having a credit card in my 20s when you could get the 0 % every month and then

pay it off and I did that and it was Yeah and I'm still, I have at the moment got this bit

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of money and

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I'm still not, I'm not enjoying it.

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I'm not having a nice time of feeling safe because it's there.

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I'm just scared because it's disappearing so fast.

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And, you know, I'm like, I saw some Sambas, you know, those shoes everyone's got with the

straw with the lights.

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And I was like, oh, they're so lovely.

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And I tried them on and I thought, I can't, I just can't buy those.

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This is the time in my life when actually I could buy them.

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But I feel very, I feel quite alone in all that in those decisions because they're new

decisions and and I'm not sure what to do for the best.

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And I'm buying Edie riding lessons because she's always wanted to do that.

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They're expensive.

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She does dog agility with the dog.

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That's quite expensive.

364

So I bet I feel like those are positive.

365

I want her to learn to drive.

366

Get all these things sorted.

367

But then the gym money, I'm like, she could have that when she's at uni and that would

make so much difference to her.

368

I'm being really selfish.

369

I shouldn't be spending this.

370

Yeah, it's like a constant, my head.

371

know, that's what scarcity talks about.

372

It talks about this constant mental load of making decisions that are ultimately all

financially based.

373

And, you know, people...

374

We never know what other people are thinking and what other decisions they have to make

around their own personal circumstances.

375

You could have two people in the room and could both be in the same financial state and

one person just might not think things through and the other person might think things

376

through a lot.

377

So there's so much difference in the way that we all process stuff.

378

But the interesting thing for me is just how you've...

379

developed and evolved your business and your approach and everything you're doing around

the menopause toolkit is so interesting to me, especially as you're looking at, you know,

380

this kind of whole period as well of menopause.

381

And there is so much negativity about it.

382

You know, it's really hard to escape all the negative stuff about menopause.

383

So I wonder if you might give us a moment to...

384

let's put some positivity back into life transition and you you said it there, if ever

there was a time, this is now.

385

So if this is our time, if you're listening and you are menopausal or peri or post.

386

in the menopause transition, I like calling it the menopause transition because it doesn't

stop on the day of menopause, which is the year without period.

387

People still get symptoms after that quite often for a little while.

388

I think the best thing about menopause is finding your feet, finding your voice, finding

yourself.

389

expressing yourself in a way you probably never did before.

390

It's like an out of body experience.

391

I stand up for the people, stand up for...

392

And I was such a people pleaser.

393

All of that going out of the window is just a blessing.

394

Because you've got a lot more life left.

395

It's like this terrible ending.

396

And it's not an ending, it's the start of a new time.

397

as Kate Codrington talks about it in such a beautiful way.

398

And it really is, it's like the opportunity to figure out what doesn't serve you and what

is really annoying you because those things are telling you something.

399

Like if somebody's taking you for granted, if somebody's continually leaving their pants

on the floor, you just won't be able to stand it anymore.

400

And that's good.

401

You don't want to be picking them up until you're 80.

402

It's a bit like you've just got a crystal ball and looked into my house.

403

The ball's leaving her pants on the floor over here.

404

Yeah, you'll be like, right, I'm not watching them.

405

They're going in the bin.

406

You have no pants, how funny.

407

Yeah, I think it's just this time of women raging up and it's great.

408

And you know, all the activists, when you look at all the, just stop oil and those women

with grey hair up on the bridges and stuff, they're all older women having, sorry, yeah,

409

they are like.

410

being so active and this agent's thing.

411

But I wonder if I could share something with you.

412

So I've had this kind of gradual, I don't know whether it's like creeping recognition,

that there's less time left.

413

And it sounds so weird to say it, but I don't know when I looked at myself almost like if

I'm putting my life course out on a piece of string.

414

And I used think, God, I'm not near the middle yet.

415

Now I sit here almost like just on the middle and I can see to the end now and it feels, I

don't know.

416

I don't know whether this is just like the beginning of me reframing that and working

through it.

417

But I do worry it's affecting a lot of where I make decisions at the moment because I'm

thinking, gosh, you know, I am suddenly becoming a little bit fearful that

418

I'm not doing all the strength training that everybody else seems to be doing.

419

And I'm going, I really need to stop that, but I know I don't enjoy it.

420

Exactly.

421

Yeah.

422

But it's really weird how this creeps, it's crept.

423

So the hormonal side really just landed overnight for me and shook me.

424

And you know, the anxiety was absolutely crippling.

425

Somebody who'd never had anxiety before and then...

426

menopause made life really challenging for quite a number of years and it coincided with

having a toddler.

427

So it was just horrific, you know?

428

And I'm through that bit, but now I think I'm just at this place where I think it's the

identity bit of me that is catching up and going, I'm in this new place, you know, I've

429

retrained, I'm doing a PhD and all the positive stuff happened.

430

But now I'm kind of in this, my God, but I wish this had all happened 10 years ago.

431

So I was younger and had more energy.

432

isn't there?

433

It's like a reckoning.

434

And you do realise that you're mortal.

435

I was thinking, I completely get where you're coming from.

436

I was thinking about it the other day and I was just thinking about my daughter and how

she sees the future as endless and vast.

437

And of course, you know you should, but then you do reach an age like 50 or something, or

you're like, oh, it's not.

438

And I can see it on my face and...

439

I think there's that whole, you know, the side of it that really intrigues me is how we're

told not to enjoy our ageing faces and it's so hard to fight that.

440

But I am really fighting it and I'm determined to.

441

I had a mammogram the other day.

442

This might be too much information.

443

I had a mammogram the other day and if you've got very firm boobs, a mammogram's quite

painful.

444

really it's verging on painful but mine is so like not firm now it was fine I was like

look at them and I could see my boob on the the plastic the perspex perfectly clean

445

perspex this is like matte squish like the squish of it I was like wow look at you you're

made for this and I don't mind I'm like you've lived your whole lives you little babies

446

and you've done all that

447

feeding and the you know, they've had their time they've fulfilled all their objectives

and I refuse to hate myself in any way and I think that is a massive shift because when

448

you start to see things like my neck went and Wrinkles and stuff and you start seeing them

and it's horrific because we're told it's horrific by ever by from every

449

angle of you know everything I'm just so sick of seeing all these ironed similar faces and

the oh it just breaks my heart a bit and I just hope there's a backlash and a women

450

reclaim their aging as a

451

amazing gift because what's the alternative be great and be loud

452

You're not saying hello.

453

I think one of the things that I've enjoyed over the last couple of years is, you know,

obviously Pamela Anderson doing her iconic, I'm not going to wear makeup.

454

I'm sure she is wearing that no makeup makeup, but hats off, you know, she wears a lot

less than I do.

455

And I think because she was such an iconic, perfect body image as well for us growing up

in nineties.

456

yeah.

457

so lovely to see her age.

458

And then I love the voices of the poet, Holly McNish as well.

459

Younger than me, but because she was written about being a mum, after I've experienced it,

I now read her poetry and think, wish I'd read that.

460

I wish I'd read that poetry.

461

And she's amazing.

462

So I'm actually seeing her in Nottingham.

463

Yes, yes.

464

I looked on World of Books the other day for um lobster.

465

I want lobster, but maybe I should look for slug.

466

It's slug, isn't it?

467

The one about bring them up.

468

Yeah.

469

Yeah.

470

great.

471

They're all great.

472

They're good books.

473

You can get loads of them secondhand as well, which is really nice.

474

that's what I really I in fact my daughter wants to get me something

475

what was it for?

476

can't remember now.

477

I feel like there was a date.

478

There's Mother's Day coming up, isn't there?

479

And I said that's what I'd like to have.

480

And I leave books like that in the bathroom in the hopes that she'll pick them up.

481

Because I just want her, I just can't, the thought of her going through all that, I mean,

she's starting to feel those things now, looking at her body.

482

the aesthetic and you know we've got this whole kind of post injection world as well which

is you know it's a very personal choice and everybody's body is their own if that's your

483

choice that's your choice but it's the objectification of it and on social media and the

positioning of it as a triumph of input and being perfect which I struggle with.

484

yeah, quite.

485

You've got it so well.

486

Yeah, that's exactly right.

487

It's heartbreaking.

488

And it's also probably not good for us, especially as if you're an older woman, it makes

it, you you kind of eating up your own muscle because you don't want to eat any food.

489

Oh, it just scares me as a, you know,

490

know what the long term impacts are, do we?

491

but they know that you're losing muscle mass and that anyway and as we age we lose muscle

mass anyway women lose quite a lot of muscle mass that's why the whole build muscle you

492

have to work towards building muscle in whatever way.

493

stick with gardening for that.

494

I do love being in the garden but there's a lot of lugging stuff around and every time I'm

lugging stuff and I feel achy and jay I think, right this is good, this is good for me.

495

definitely.

496

You've got to eat protein and you've got to uh really test your muscles in whichever way

you want to do it.

497

But yeah, I agree.

498

I think that it really scares me and the whole thinness thing.

499

Edie tried on some, bought some jeans and she didn't know about jeans.

500

All the jeans in the world are different sizes, aren't they?

501

It doesn't matter what's written on them.

502

They can be from your same shop and they'll be completely different.

503

and she just picked some up and then they were too small and she was I just hug her and

I'm just like please don't let it get to you just don't try not to let it get to you.

504

It's so sad.

505

All of us women wasting all this time hating ourselves.

506

and so much we can just be doing, which is really positive stuff.

507

I mean, you took the decision then at some point to move from reflexology to move into the

menopause space, Pajima Blasu.

508

Was that during COVID that that transition took place?

509

Yeah, I think I'd studied the menopause course in 2017 and it was a year long, it was the

Burrell course and then I did the nutritional therapy one.

510

So I always did, I was a massage therapist and a re-physiologist and you have to do CPD.

511

So I thought, okay, I'll do these and they were online and it was quite new learning

online then.

512

Yeah, and I just slowly kind of integrated it and I'm always pivoting.

513

I've realised there's a word for it.

514

I'm pivoting again and I'm doing my sub stack and I'm really enjoying writing and I'm

building a kind of membership on there.

515

I'm still seeing one-to-one clients.

516

But yeah, I think COVID definitely brought to light the need to be able to work

self-sufficiently from home, you know.

517

So that was the perfect time.

518

And then moving here and losing the space to do the massage was the crux of it.

519

But I would still do massage.

520

I think now I know about my nervous system, ADHD and everything.

521

And the massage is incredibly calming for me.

522

And I really missed it.

523

It's an incredibly physical profession, isn't it?

524

So it's tough on your own body, yeah.

525

Yeah.

526

in the thumb joint.

527

Is that something you think you'll return to?

528

If I had the opportunity to, I'd like to do it for a day a week, you know, it's so hard,

isn't it?

529

Because you have all these ideas and it's like everything's possible.

530

But actually I'm trying to make a quilt and so far over the past month of trying to make a

quilt, all I've done is iron some fabric.

531

Well done for the ironing.

532

uh

533

so I'm like, kind of kidding.

534

I know it's going to be slow and I don't mind that I've come to terms with the slowness of

what we can take years because I'm going do it by hand.

535

But yeah, I think I keep thinking maybe I could do it for one day but actually the

logistics of that.

536

Mm.

537

are huge because you still have to talk to clients, you have to be available to book in

clients or talk to them.

538

They don't want to use the booking system.

539

You'd have to add it to your website.

540

You'd have to, you know, if it's word of mouth, people just send you messages and then

you're there in the evening back and forwarding.

541

I used to forget to charge people because we were both, everyone was so relaxed at the end

and it was so nice and they'd leave and they go, Emma, I haven't paid you.

542

You

543

And then I did, I used to have vouchers and people would come and then at the end they'd

go, I lost my voucher.

544

There's a lot of things, know, people are weird aren't they?

545

And I'd feel sorry for them.

546

And then someone else would come with a voucher and I'd think, that's your mate's voucher

isn't it?

547

At some point they went have this and then either they forgot that they gave it to you.

548

or they knew they were giving it to you and they thought it was funny because they're not

poor and they don't know what it's like or something you just feel a bit oh don't know so

549

probably not no I don't know I'd love to do it to my friends yeah George up front I know

all those things I've learned a lot of lessons and maybe the maniples will help me be a

550

lot more

551

I definitely, it was really interesting because when I did consultancy work, I would

invoice, so I'd do the work and invoice.

552

And over COVID, I had one brilliant client who pretty much paid my mortgage that year.

553

um But

554

It was a 90 day payment term because they were American.

555

And so when I put my invoices in, it was over three months later when the money came

through and something inside me just thought, I can't do this.

556

Not as a freelancer.

557

oh Yeah.

558

And I wasn't, you know, I've got a limited company, but I wasn't working with a lot of

people.

559

So there was a couple of people I was working with, but not a lot.

560

And I couldn't build my business in, into an agency at that point in time.

561

which was the big dream at one point.

562

So that's when I flipped and I just charge up front for everything.

563

And it's like, yeah, you pay and then you get it.

564

And so that has, it has made things so easy.

565

It's not chasing people because if they don't pay, they don't get it.

566

have some really solid TNCs, don't I?

567

Yeah, I've got some really good ones actually.

568

So one of the really wonderful things that happened for me was getting my T's and C's done

during Covid and yeah, through wonderful, wonderful woman called Ingrid Fernandez.

569

Yeah, so she's been connected to doing it for the kids and also I think she was in the

real work at some point.

570

so Ingrid did my terms and conditions and

571

And yeah, just makes life easy.

572

It's like, yeah.

573

And part of that also is being comfortable with the value of what I'm selling as well.

574

em So I'm getting better at asking people, is this worth what you would pay or am I under

charging?

575

And interestingly, my group experience this year, I asked the question, am I charging

enough?

576

not enough or undercharging and everyone said you're undercharging.

577

I think getting real feedback and asking for it.

578

And I'm a big advocate of using research in your own business, I'm researcher.

579

It's like, when have you last asked a client, how did that feel in terms of value and in

price?

580

And I think we need to ask the question more often because that's anti-people pleasing,

isn't it?

581

It's more...

582

people don't mind either.

583

I mean, I always like being asked things like that because you're kind of helping somebody

see your people pleasing by answering.

584

Yeah, I think also it shows that you're engaged with people because you're kind of saying,

well, I value you being a customer, but let me understand how this is sitting for you as

585

well.

586

And sometimes, yeah, I have had clients that have left me along the way when prices have

gone up, but then I've had new clients as a result.

587

you know, it does help.

588

Yeah.

589

And do you have flat rates for things that you do?

590

just because I am researching part-time, doing a PhD, so I've got a load of admin with

that and I don't need admin in my life.

591

So I have got fixed rates for everything.

592

So with my research, it's retainer rate and it's the same rate for absolutely everybody

because it just keeps things simple.

593

When I have finished in the PhD and I've got a bit more time and I'm working with more

clients and I can afford to have admin,

594

Yeah, I might revisit that, but for every single person who says don't charge by the hour

or don't do this, there's also somebody like me or you sitting there going, but my

595

personal circumstances mean I just need simplicity right now.

596

yeah.

597

So I've got this thing with working for public sector versus private sector.

598

So I feel like public sector is obviously not quite the same as a tax deductible expense

for a huge company.

599

So I'd probably charge.

600

it's different though.

601

the way I would always say, I I worked a lot of my career in public sector, you know, they

get specific pots of money for different things.

602

So they've usually budgeted for stuff more than a private company has.

603

Usually trying to find money from a private company means somebody's got to go and find

the budget from somewhere.

604

For a public sector company, then the way I would think about it differently if I wanted

to shift away from time for money is...

605

they know they want this or they've got a budget, they've got a public budget somewhere

for it.

606

So therefore I'm just spending what they've got.

607

And then when it comes to charities as well, people who say, well, charities can't afford

it.

608

Again, the whole point of charities and CICs is that they fund what they need.

609

So they go and get the funding to do what they need.

610

So unless you're telling, unless you're telling charities and CICs and public sector,

here's my offering, here's what it costs.

611

How do they then forward budget for that kind of thing?

612

So I think it's two way thing.

613

One, they might say no this year, but unless you've told them what the price is and not

undersold yourself, how do they know next year to budget it?

614

And I've definitely worked in a council where we have looked at budgeting something in the

year after because we haven't got enough money in the budget the year before.

615

So again, think we think about things from our perspective rather than the business's

perspective sometimes.

616

I'm not the expert on any of this.

617

think the good girl economics research I did with Nikki is really interesting because we

talk about stuff that stops women from charging their worth.

618

But Sara Dower and Paul is doing some really interesting work at the moment on visibility.

619

And she also talks about pricing as well.

620

And I think all these people, they're all saying similar things from different

perspectives, but.

621

It's very much, you know, you can charge and we shouldn't do that.

622

done something so bad based on what you're saying that I'm now having.

623

Yeah, I feel like I need to be hypnotized or something so I can actually say what I want

to charge.

624

It's not there, Peanut.

625

Go and find it.

626

I suppose my question would be, you, do you know what you need to charge?

627

Yes, I've worked that out.

628

But I'm not really running at capacity, so I'm still getting jobs, drips and drabs as it

were, still sort of at the start of building it all.

629

Yeah, the due time.

630

What I think to myself is if I was a 55-year-old man with grey suit, grey hair, grey

Mercedes,

631

you would not be saying no to paying me that much.

632

You'd be like, great.

633

That's what I have to, that's what I keep in my head.

634

And they wouldn't be feeling bad about asking for the money and everyone would be assuming

they'd be worth that much money.

635

And that, yeah, I feel like I completely do.

636

And also because I'm talking about women's health, it's not, you know, it's a different.

637

I mean, we know there's huge gaps.

638

We know there's just limited funding for research on women's health.

639

And really interesting, know, the qualitative research is really lacking.

640

So we've got data points that are starting to come through, like how many women are

considered to be perimenopausal and taking HRT, for example.

641

We've got data on that.

642

But if you start looking at...

643

How many perimenopausal women have had unexpected moments that have brought them deep joy?

644

We can't answer those questions.

645

Nobody's talking about that.

646

And yet we've had this lovely conversation today where there was this deeply kind of

traumatic probably and distressing point in time where you lost home, mum, know,

647

community, those things.

648

But deep joys come through there as well.

649

You know, the garden.

650

peanut the dog.

651

As we're talking about the sun coming right through into your room and yet you know things

we value like these life things that bring us deep joy just they don't seem as sexy do

652

they for the money.

653

No, it's just holding it.

654

I just want to keep hold of it.

655

I just want to keep hold of it.

656

It's a lot.

657

It's a lot for one person with a with a lot very low grasp of what you call it the ADHD

thing, the executive function.

658

Yes, it's a lot.

659

been recognised for the first time, I think, in the government's send paper, where schools

executive function has been recognised as of yesterday.

660

There's a domain in its own right.

661

I still worry that perhaps the approach that government is taking is that we have to work

to improve children rather than improve the spaces in which we learn.

662

when you think about your life perspective though, Emma, I think there's something really

rich about the fact that you have had this unexpected transition in your menopausal years,

663

that your perspective

664

that you deeply understand stand precarity and I think I would totally be stepping into

that.

665

I think there are more women than not who reach their 40s and 50s and might not have a

partner in life or there have been changes or they lose parents, they lose stability, they

666

lose safety.

667

And whenever I read your work that for me is what comes through certainly through

substation.

668

stuff, it's just your deep understanding of that and that's that empath in you I suppose.

669

There's big, too much empathy as my daughter says.

670

I'm crying over a hedge that's been chopped up.

671

Yeah.

672

thank you.

673

my ADHD post, I wrote one called something about squirrels.

674

and it was best performing post I've done.

675

Because it's, you know, millions and millions of women aren't there.

676

And then actually a health professional said to me, God, everybody, you know, it's

ridiculous.

677

Everybody's got ADHD.

678

And I was like, what are you saying that to me for?

679

And I've just said it to you.

680

And you're working as a health professional.

681

It's not a very informed approach, is it?

682

it's not fun, I'm not getting anything out of it.

683

It's not, yeah, but then you do get stuff out of it, but it's like generally in this

world, it's not designed for us.

684

It's kind of makes life a lot harder.

685

People, make assumptions, don't we as humans?

686

It's one of the wonderful psychological things about being human is that we can see a

behaviour and we can relate to it.

687

And therefore we think, A plus A equals B, but it doesn't, it just equals AA.

688

And we see correlations where there aren't correlations, but it doesn't mean that anyone's

life experience is less valid.

689

I think the increase in diagnosis is helpful when it is transformative for people.

690

I think the increase in public knowledge about ADHD is very helpful.

691

think it just makes us, you know, a lot of the adaptations or support that can be put in

for ADHD benefits so many people.

692

oh

693

Why wouldn't we all want to have more psychological safety?

694

be my answer to anyone who says well everybody thinks that they've now got it and I go

well doesn't everybody deserve psychological safety and not to be treated by...

695

yeah.

696

Yeah, yeah, quite to feel okay about saying it.

697

That's another thing about the menopause is to be, you know, you just say it.

698

Just say it, whatever you need to say.

699

I don't have any qualms about those.

700

really feel like if anyone's got a problem, is theirs.

701

It just shocks me that people would have one still, you know, so I'd say it in.

702

I've read that people are frightened to say it in interviews or frightened to tell work

that they do and things like that.

703

I guess that comes from hearing people say negative things in passing.

704

so tightly kind of bound to identity hasn't it, especially in media.

705

And in that respect I can see why it's either a very affirming or unsettling thing to

confront or to work with.

706

So for some people it's a badge.

707

It's kind of saying to people, this is who I am and that's their identity I feel very

comfortable with.

708

Likewise, same person, same age, different circumstances, who's probably, you know, could

be more precarious for them.

709

They're thinking this is, you know, destabilizing.

710

It could be threatening.

711

It threatens my safety or whatever.

712

And I think this is where, as a social scientist,

713

the identity piece is always so much more interesting than the diagnosis.

714

It's, you know, what's your context?

715

Where are you living?

716

How are you moving through life?

717

Who else is impacting these things?

718

And I think when we lose perspective, that is really interesting.

719

I'm going to leave you with something.

720

I've been reading about Donna Haraway and I'd never come across her at all, but she is a

feminist.

721

a historian I think or something but she wrote some seminal kind of essays and I came

across her work as part of my PhD She talks about the privilege of perspective

722

And I've been, you know, it's only really recently I've considered privilege and, you

know, entitlement and all those things really never crossed my mind before.

723

It's just like some people worked harder than others.

724

I have really enjoyed our talk Emma and I just want to say thank you because you've shared

some really difficult things with us and also some big life shifts and moments you've

725

spoken about mum Mary, I'm sorry to hear that she passed and also I suppose a difficult

house move but it's

726

Also interesting then to hear about the unexpected moments and what happens when you sit

with it or you kind of lean into it as you did and that agency you found around going, I'm

727

going to get this house, So thank you.

728

you, I've really enjoyed it as well.

729

It's been very enlightening and I'm looking forward to reading, is it Donna?

730

Donna Haraway, yeah, fascinating.

731

Thank you, thank you very much.

732

That's all for today.

733

Thank you so much for listening to Psychologically Speaking.

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My name's Leila Ainge and I run the Reflection Room.

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We start next week with a series of weekly prompts and three workshops.

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Come and join us.

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The Welcome Event is available for everybody and we're doing a live workshop with a prompt

around rumination.

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For more details, visit www.leilaainge.co.uk See you there.