Aurel (SO/SP 6w7 693) experienced a major stroke in early adulthood—an event that unraveled his sense of self and fractured his memory. What happens when your personal history goes missing? In this conversation, Aurel reflects on the slow, painful reconstruction of identity and how trauma rewrites not just the past, but the present narrative. We talk about radical empathy, activism, and the emotional labor of confronting systemic injustice while piecing together who you are. This is a deep dive into Type 6 themes—humility, doubt, the search for expertise, and the existential anxiety that rides alongside all of it. Aurel also shares how role-playing games became a surprising avenue for self-exploration, offering both escape and insight. Gender, memory, social responsibility, and the long arc of healing—it’s all here, held together by a steady curiosity about what it means to tell the truth, especially when the truth feels scattered.

LINKS

Learn at The Enneagram School

https://theenneagramschool.com/

Intro Course

https://www.theenneagramschool.com/intro-enneagram-course

Get Typed

https://www.enneagrammer.com/

Sinsomnia Podcast (Dreams)

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sinsomnia/id1684154994

House of Enneagram

https://www.youtube.com/@houseofenneagram

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 - Intro

05:45 - Grounding to a sense of reliable orientation as a core mental type carrying significant memory loss

09:37 - Mosaic of identity: pieces of Aurel's life, "firming up" to actually get better attachments

14:56 - Being 'proactively solid', having a passionate moral compass, feeling guilt backlash

19:36 Anti-fascism, practicing good discernment, community care-taking

21:01 "Can we put a time stamp on this so people who aren't white don't have to hear about how I learned to care about racism if they don't want to?"

23:44 - Social core 6 'sounding the alarm' to this reality, searching for and spreading truth through the 'best information'

31:55 - A fascination with information, 6 wing 7 'play mode', anti-arrogance of 6, "I don't want to be responsible for your orientation"

35:17 - Navigating influence and value, proselytizing mode, anti-elitism and self-erasure of the 6-9 stem

46:17 - Role-playing games as an artistic form to navigate different aspects of self and identity

53:07 - Intersection of memory loss and identity, "none of us hold all of ourselves", not being certain of self-perceptions

01:02:14 - Gender Identity, re-inventing yourself, the complexities of social labels, 6s ability to see the categories held by the collective mind

01:11:44 - Gender expression through the sexual instinct, sexual blind 6 afraid of 'being caught', sexual versus social attunement, finding 'flavor' through the arts but having 3 last

01:26:43 - Outro

CREDITS

Interview by Josh Lavine

Edited by Kristen Oberly

Music by Coma-Media from Pixabay

Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/

Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

---

#enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagram6

Aurel 0:00

The thing I feel like I'm really struggling with right now is knowing I need to, like, firm up my sense of identity and show that.

Aurel 0:10

And every time I've done that in the past, right? It's, it's, it's not been bad. It's often been very good.

Aurel 0:16

But if I solidify, and this is like, the Bermuda thing, right? If I solidify that I'm not available for attachment, and then everything's a disaster, even though, even though I have this life experience that says, If I do firm up, I will get better attachments.

Josh Lavine 0:31

Welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lamine, your host and on this show and review accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type today. My guest is arrell, who is a social self, Pres six, wing seven, with 693, tri fix. And one of the things that's fascinating about REL is that he has significant memory loss from early childhood due to a medical event. And so it was interesting getting into how arel constructs a map of reality as well as a sense of self without having full access to his own narrative history.

Josh Lavine 1:03

And we also get into this conversation the six nine stem that RL has up front. And six nine STEM is very common. STEM. Sometimes it's nine six, but in arelles case, it's six nine because he's a core six. And the anti elitism, anti narcissism, sensibility that comes with that stem up front. RL also has a three fix in his third spot, which means that he likes to be paid attention to, likes to be admired, likes to occasionally be on stage and have a spotlight on him. However, with six nine up front, there is a profound ambivalence towards taking up space, being in the spotlight, being the spokesperson for something, being kind of the poster child, or face of even the kind of sensibilities that he has anchored himself to in his life, and kind of worked very hard to become an expert in one of the things that tends to get emphasized in the literature on six is their being out of touch with their own inner guidance, and there is obviously true to this. Sixes are piecing together a map of reality based on other people's maps, as the attachment type in the middle center, however, in the in the essence of six, there is what you might call a courageous humility to accept the limitations of my perceptions and the willingness to keep an open mind, to keep looking for better sources of truth, to integrate into my map, to keep looking for a more complete and reliable orientation, and to be willing to consider other people's perspectives, to integrate into their source, into their map of Reality. And this all comes to, comes down to what you could say is one of orells key values, which is the importance of having good information. And I just love that as a six sensibility. And Aurel literally went to, had went to school for Information Sciences, which we talked about a little bit in the interview. But just yeah, this importance of having good and reliable information, and especially as a social self press type, having good and reliable information that is on topics that are not just important and resonant for him, but important for having a collective in which everyone belongs, everyone has a place like a well functioning society. What's, what are the important pieces of information that we need to have an inclusive society. Finally, we also talk about the sixes core ambivalence towards the a priori categories that are held in the collective mind that you know, we live in a socially constructed reality. We have categories that we are asked in a certain sense, to identify into, for example, gender norms or age or whatever. There are categories and definitions that the collective holds, and they are embedded in the way that we use language, and what it what it is to use languages to make distinctions about things and to say something is something and not something else. And the core ambivalence and frustration six has kind of like shaking their fist at the authority in the sky about those categories and the both the usefulness and also the limitations of labels and the fact that it's sort of an impo we can't live without them, but they, they, they're a blunt and unideal way of navigating the world, you could say. So that's a lot of orientation for this episode. If you would like to learn more about the Enneagram or type six or social self pres in general, then I recommend you go to our website, the Enneagram school.com, and check out our free resources, the catalog of interviews that we have, as well as our intro course, where we lay out all the basic concepts. It's a great place to start if you're a beginner, and a great place to go get a refresher if you're an advanced student. And without further ado, I'm very excited for you to learn from my friend Harel, so I know that you have significant memory loss from the first like major. Part of your life up until about when you were 20. Yeah, and one of the things that I find really fascinating about you and confusing is how, how you hold on to a sense of self without grounding in or refer referencing the like a huge part of your past and I wonder if you could talk about if you're willing to kind of the either the circumstances that led to the memory loss or just the experience of what it's like to live without that, and what you anchor to now, especially as a core mental type for your kind of Yeah, grounding in a certain sense of reliable orientation.

Aurel 5:45

So the memory loss happened because I had a stroke when I was 15. They don't know why. We have some best guesses, but that's about it. Okay, all things considered, I've recovered really well. I had really great supports. Yeah, it was really touch and go for a while, but I don't remember that part. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So that's how that happened. There's probably still scar tissue on my brain. Okay? It's been a long time since I've had an MRI, though, so who knows.

Josh Lavine 6:15

Okay, got it? Yeah? This was, yeah, you had a

Aurel 6:19

medical event. This was a major medical event. I almost had brain surgery. Brain surgery, yeah, so that's, that's how that came to be. The memory loss is one of my major symptoms. There's lots, there were lots of other things in play too. I forgot English. It took about two years to get fully fluent

Josh Lavine 6:35

again. No way. Yeah.

Aurel 6:37

I also speak French, so that I kept the French, lost the English. Wow. Okay, it's, it's not uncommon for language to be affected during brain injuries like that. Okay, people don't really know about it, but it's not at all uncommon, all right. And fortunately, my whole family is bilingual, so it wasn't a big deal at home. But, huh, yeah. Anyway, so the memory loss, yeah, so for a long time, it felt like, for a long time, I think a lot was gone, like a lot more than is now, at some point, I think things did start coming back. I was actually talking to my mom a few months ago, and she was like, you don't remember your childhood. You remember what you've been told about your childhood. And I think that must have been true at a certain point, even though it's not anymore, I was able to be like, actually, no, here's some stuff I never told you about my childhood. I don't think I ever told anyone.

Josh Lavine 7:25

Like, memories did come back, you know? Yeah, peaceful in a way, yeah, okay.

Aurel 7:30

But it trying to, like, trying to understand it as a cohesive whole doesn't really feel possible, right? There are some kind of narratives I've built around my childhood, but they are a little abstract. Like, I know I was really badly bullied, but I mostly don't remember it okay. Or, like, I know I was a child actor, and I have a bunch of random stories, but if there's an arc, if there was an arc to it, and there might not have been, it's real life. I don't remember that.

Josh Lavine 8:09

So like, from from either the bullying or the performing, do you have a visceral like, does your body retain the memory?

Aurel 8:15

Yeah, I think it does a really weird thing used to happen to me on the street, and this isn't a type thing, but in the if it in the for at least three years after the brain injury, people would come up to me on the street and start talking to me like they knew me, and they did know me, right? They would know my name. They would know things about me that they would know my family. I would have no clue who they were, like, Yeah, except I would react emotionally. I would either be really afraid of them or really like them, like a really warm feeling. But obviously, when a stranger is talking to you with familiarity, you you don't know why you like them or who they are, and you're trying to fake it because you're too young and frazzled to just be like, Hey, by the way, I've had major brain injury. I don't know who you are, sorry. So in that context, even when you really like someone, it's still terrifying. So I don't, but then I go home and, like, unpack it with my mom, and she'd be like, Oh yeah, that's so and so this is how you know them, yeah, you do like them, or yeah, you have had some pretty negative experiences with them, and it was always that emotional reaction was always accurate. And I don't know how my brain did that, like, how it how it knew how I felt about people at such a gut level with zero other conscious context?

Josh Lavine 9:29

Yeah, it's one of those, the Body Keeps the Score things. Probably it's like, yeah, you had of some somatic impression of this person's energy

Aurel 9:37

that guy. So I think there's a lot more somatic impressions in my body, yeah, than our actual memories, right, right, right. Yeah,

Josh Lavine 9:49

amazing. I you know, I guess as a thinking about you as a mental type, and how you anchor to a reliable sense of what's going on in. Uh, or actually, let me say this differently, as for me, as a core heart type, especially as a social heart type, I feel like the way I understand myself is through a kind of historical narrative and so, like, I can tell you about experiences in a chronological sense of like, what happened to me in elementary school, middle school, high school, and how that forms, how I reacted to those experiences, and how they all amalgamate into a sense of who I am now, and without having access to that. Do you carry now, like, I mean, now, yeah. Do you carry a sense, a stable sense of self that is narrativized in that kind of way?

Not narrativized in that kind of way? I have stories like, I I understand that part of the I understand that like, like, and this is intellectualized because, again, I don't, like, remember the specifics, but like, I'm terrified of people, like, just terrified, and I'm sure it's related. So, like, I have these stories about myself, like I get I see these things about myself, and I can see the ties. But if you asked me to, like, write my autobiography, I would have no idea where to start narratively, right? And I did struggle with that. I had that as a class assignment when I was like 22 and I really didn't know what to do,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

So this, but also there, I think there, but also I think some of that is me refusing to see myself. How so, like a thing I feel like I'm really struggling with right now is knowing I need to, like, firm up my sense of identity and show that. And every time I've done that in the past, right? It's, it's, it's not been bad, it's often been very good. But if I solidify, and this is like the Bermuda thing, right? If I solidify, then I'm not available for attachment, and then everything's a disaster, even though, even though I have this life experience that says, If I do firm up, I will get better attachments, right?

Yeah, that's, I mean, I'm relating as an as a core attachment, triple attachment type, yeah, I hard relate to that. And also, well said, Do you have a sense of the the things that you would solidify around

that feels really scary to think about. I don't even know how to answer that. Can you try asking it a different

way? Yeah, so actually, I'll just tell you, like a couple of the mosaic pieces of the of what comes together in my mind as I think about you. So first of all, I know just social context you have a master's degree in. Remind me again, it's Information

Studies with a specialization in Library Science

Information Studies, with a specialization in library science, which I love that it's like, just, yeah, just sort of, maybe doesn't get more mental type than that. But it's just great. It's like, you have had a history as a performer. And also, I loved how in your typing video, you talked about being involved in role playing games and and LARPing and Dungeon dragons and and other other games like that. And I want to actually put an asterisk in that and come back to it, because there was something really powerful about your favorite character that you roleplay was someone who's, like, very expressive and just wore everything on their sleeves. So which is that has some resonance that I want to come back to. You're also a professional organizer, and you this. This was a really powerful statement you made. You have a strong desire to be a resource for folks as we descend into fascism, yeah. And you have sort of social self press convictions about the larger social context and strongly held values that I imagine resonate in that somatic way where you're like, I know this to be true for me. Yeah? And you have, in your words, the six craving to name and face ugly realities to ground other people, help them move out of panic and into action, or move into frustration when they aren't frustrated enough to act and yeah, all these things kind of form a mosaic sense of who you are. And also, I'll just add something that I know to be true of you is like your fighter spirit. You have a fighter spirit. And yeah,

I have a hard time understanding that about myself and. Unless I intellectualize it, like, on a body level, I have a hard time accepting that, even though, like, my whole life is just like, stuff getting stuck in my craw and like, of course, it does, like, I'm a reactive sex I'm social, self prize. So that whole, like, what are the words I'm looking for, that whole contra flow thing, right? Like, things get stuck do? Yeah, yeah. So like I see it, but the idea of embodying it is a lot, like the idea of owning it is a lot, right, right,

yeah. And I guess you know this is, this is part of the whole Bermuda struggle. You mentioned that you're kind of learning how to stand up for yourself, or at least, this was part of your typing video, which was part of your typing video, which was a couple years ago, but this whole learning still thing, yeah, learning how to stand up for yourself, learning how to solidify you also said, a life lesson you've learned over and over again is that being proactively Solid is good, actually, yeah, as opposed to maybe reactively solid, or kind of preemptively diffuse, and then learning, or, yeah, learning what you're solid about later. Or,

you know, yeah, I think, I think I was contrasting that more about being diffuse, yeah, hadn't really considered I'm being reactively solid, but yeah, I'm definitely doing that. I see, yeah,

I think I want to, I want to hone in on one of these pieces and and then we'll see how they all connect to each other. But I think that the professional organizing thing is particularly interesting and resonant for me, just because I know how passionate you are about social issues. And can you talk about, can you just talk about, what are the what are some of the issues that you are passionate about, and what makes you so passionate about

them? I have a hard time pinning it down to like, one or two issues in the sense that I understand it all to be intertwined. Yeah, right. Like, ableism has always been part of anti blackness and and it's part of transphobia, like all of this stuff is it all works together in lockstep. So it's hard to like, be like, Oh yes, this is the one that is most important, although the one actually just

sorry, real quick, hold that thought, because I just want to mention the Enneagram thing about that, like with the six nine stem, yes, you know it's like, it's like mental alertness and sharpness, but with the nine, kind of, like awareness of the entire interconnected tapestry that anything that you would kind of pinpoint in it is connected to this whole big thing. And so finding isolated topics without also seeing how they're connected to a wider systemic hole, it's sort of, you could say, maybe a difficult thing with a six nine stem. Yeah, yeah. Can you talk more about your Anti Fascist sensibility. How do you like? Just what's like if you, if you were to be on a pulpit and you have an on a soapbox,

I was literally thinking like, I don't want to be the poster child for anti fascism. Okay, okay, okay. But I get, I can share what my experience has been, for sure. Yeah, I don't have, like, a clear point for when I would have started identifying that way, or how, like, I fell into those politics. I grew up really middle class, really centrist, like Central at best or at worst, so, like, it's been a journey as an adult, like, learning more about the world, and I had, I did have, like, a lot of privilege, like, I didn't actually, like, I grew up middle class, and, you know, had all that support, even though I went through this terrible medical thing. You know, in a different world, I am living in pretty extreme poverty right now because I just didn't get the support I needed to recover. So, like, part of it has just been, yeah, it's been that it's that thing we said earlier, where, like, it's all the different pieces and all the different systems at play. And in some ways, I think I got lucky that I picked good voices to listen to and attach to and absorb ideas from, and maybe some of that was also good discernment.

Yeah, so, but at some point I did get here, right, like, I like, I can I can name this. I can talk about this. It means, I don't know what does it mean? It means, it definitely means actively resisting what's happening right now. But that's also exists in small ways too. Like, I'm not just talking about like going out into the streets. I'm also talking about like, talking to your neighbors and checking in on them when the weather's bad. Mm. Yeah, right? Or like, like, like, think about a lot of, like, the caretaking work that the Black Panther Party did, right? Like, I don't know if that, I don't know if enough about that movement to know exactly all of the labels it would give itself. But like, that community building work where it did, where it fed people, it gave people medical care. Like, that's all also Anti Fascist. Right. It's, it's, it's that like radically taking care of each other. And my politics are also anti status. I don't really think nation states are doing much for people aside, unless you're like Elon Musk or like Donald Trump. So it's looking to ourselves for support, because I don't think that, and it's coming from anywhere else

you you use the term for yourself becoming radicalized, yeah, for sure, yeah. Can you is that was there? Are there like benchmarks in the journey of that?

Yeah, there's, there's one really big benchmark. And I almost want to be like, like, can we put a timestamp on this so people who aren't white don't have to hear about how I learned to care about racism if they don't want

to. Yeah.

So when Trump got elected in 2016 or I guess, really late, 2015 when the election happened, I was completely shocked. It took the floor out from under me. I did not expect that. It scared me like it. I took away my sense of safety. I didn't think the world could work that way. And then literally, like, literally, a tweet changed my life. I don't remember a handle or anything anymore, but this black guy was, like, posted a long thread about all of this, and at one point he was like, like, this is an like, this is an empathy check in for like, white folks, like, the way you're feeling right now is how a lot of us have always felt,

and that just landed so profoundly, like it just drew such a clear line for me

that I've never, I've never been the same since for the better, Like, within a few months, I was involved in, like, I found, like, some black women doing, like, training for white folks on anti racism, and got really involved with that for about a year and a half, yeah, and just like, stayed in those spaces and kept kind of leaning into those ideas,

what was the what was the resonance? What was so strong about it?

I think it was, I think it was being able to understand how unsafe a lot of people's experiences, and then knowing how that felt for myself now I see Yeah, because I'm sure I'd heard it before, but I had no frame of reference to

understand it. And so then having that personal experience of it, and then kind of opened a portal into this whole dimension of suffering and anxiety shared by a bunch of other minority groups that have felt in a similar way.

That doesn't feel quite right. But what would I

don't know. I don't know what the words are, um, other than maybe, like a radical empathy, radical, that's basically what you said.

Yeah, I'm wondering about the, let's see how

to put this, okay. But also it did, I think it did, also fire me up at the injustice of it, because no one should have to feel that

way. Okay, there you go. Yeah, right. Like it's, it's wrong why I had to feel

that way. It's wrong that anyone has to feel that way. Mm, hmm. This

kind of, let's see drawing from the Enneagram again, kind of like course six sounding the alarm, yeah, sensibility,

yeah. And I think there's a lot of social self present there too, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, the whole the whole the whole orientation is social self pres, in a way, right? But it's, I mean, it's also, it's, it's both, it's six and social self press. Because I know there's self press, social sixes that care about this a lot too, you know, but there's, um, but you kind of get this double hit, you know? Yeah,

I think there's people of every type who are, like, actually, this is bad, right, right? But in my particular case, like the type structure feeds into how all of this happened for me and how I got radicalized. Yeah, yeah. And I think there were like chinks in, like, the middle class white armor along the way, you know, like seeing white feminism fail disabled people over and over again. Then, you know, trying to remember, I don't think I think this, this either happened around the same No, I think I don't. I don't think I quite knew I was trans yet. Okay, when all of this was happening, so that wasn't part of it, but being trans has also helped me see how much more vulnerable people can be as well. There's been a world of difference between being a cis queer woman and a queer, trans person,

okay, yeah, yeah, okay, that makes sense. So what is it? I guess, what I'm kind of honing in on, just from an Enneagram point of view, in all this conversation, is the you might call it like, well, it's the textbook phrase for it would be reactivity in the mental center, yeah, but, but it's, it's really like a a truth bearing, or an unveiling, you could say, or, uh, unveiling is a good word for it, a pull towards some something that has been in plain view this whole time. I didn't see it, but oh my god, now I see and now I can't unsee it, and I need other people to see it too. And this sounding the alarm sensibility that comes where it's like, I want to help open people's eyes to this reality that we're living in, that people have an extraordinary blind spot to and and I guess what I'm wondering about is the, I can't think of a better way to ask this, but like, what is like, I can't Uh, is it? Is it? Which? This is not the right word. Would you say that it's yummy to do that like, it's the word that came to me actually is ego syntonic, just like a psychology word where it's like, yeah, I don't know that word. It's, it's a, yeah, it's a deep psychology word that basically means something that feels good to my ego structure, yeah. You know, like, I think so, yeah, yeah. It feels, it feels self aligned, where ego dystonic is something that feels not good to my ego struggle, like for speaking for myself as a three like ego syntonic is like working 12 hour days. It's like, I, I actually am happy doing that. You know, it's ego dystonic for me to work a four hour day and then to just chill like that actually produces stress for me. Ego syntonic, you know, for you as a six is to kind of immerse yourself in these in these contexts where you are experiencing and representing this, let's open our eyes to this reality kind of worldview. And it would be Ego dystonic to not be there, you could say. And so I'm wondering about the experience of that, like, why is it so important? What makes you so devoted to it? And there's actually that devotional quality of six that we could bring in there too, for sure, yeah, being kind of like a, yeah, devote, devotion to a cause, something that feels really important, and the courage of six that comes online when that devotion gets unlocked. You know, that sense of certainty,

I think a big part of it, like, yeah, like, I think, I think you're on, on, on the on the right track with like, it feeling right, but like, right? Yeah. A lot of what I want to do as a social six is, like, spread the truth. Yeah. Like, I want people to have good information. And that's what makes like all the like to bring it back. Like, that's what makes like the memory loss scary. Like, yes, maybe I'm telling you something that's true about myself. Maybe I maybe next time I tell my mom that story, she'll be like, actually, you're wrong. They'll be like, Well, shit, I've been lying to people. But also on like, a broader scale, like, I want them to have the best information they can have, to make their own decisions. And it would be wildly arrogant to assume I always have all the best information. I definitely don't, but I think I know some really good things that are not necessarily well known. Yeah,

you happen to have a master's degree in informational sciences, and so actually, can we bring it back there for a second? Like, what is the what? What? What is that degree? Like, can you, what did you What did you learn? It's

really not that deep. It's when, as we were transitioning into, like, the quote, unquote, Information Age. I got my degree. I started my degree 15 years ago. So it was still like the internet was not quite what it was. Yet is now the all of the library schools are transitioning from being library schools to information schools. So this was kind of like the in between title my school had been experimenting with Master of Information Studies. The vast majority of people graduating from that program were specialized in library science. There were some archivists. There were some folks who were more systems side of the. Expressions and but there were folks doing like that, more intellectual labor about information, like we talked about, a lot about people like Corey Doctorow and, you know, folks really invested in like, what is information? How do we gather information? How do we process information? How do we share information? And I did. I did actually really enjoy that, unsurprisingly,

let's see. I don't know. I don't know if we'll keep this in or not, but I, I find myself fascinated with this. I find myself fascinated with your fascination with information. Yeah,

and the you gotta, you gotta know what the good information is. You gotta get to the real stuff, the good

stuff. Yes. And is there? Are you carrying a like a preemptive skepticism or watchfulness about kind of is this information good or not good, or something like that?

I don't want to rule that out, but I think the absorptiveness is actually more forefronted. Like when I was in school, one of my friends turned to me one day and was like, I have never seen anyone take in theory as well as you do, okay. And I think I was complaining at the time that I was having a hard I don't I have a hard time, like, speaking up in the moment, like, like, asking those good, smart questions in class. Is never something I've been really good at. I need more. I need to be I need to take that slow and come to those in my own time. But yeah, I do learn really. I do learn new information, new theory, really fast and integrate it really well. It's like, really, like, six thing, right? Of like, Okay, let's take all these things from here and here and here and synthesize them together.

Yeah, 6.72 it's that plays on, you know, absolutely yeah, yeah.

And like, information is a play space for me, absolutely, right, right? Like, that's even when I'm trying to numb out I'm playing,

yeah. One thing I've been thinking about a lot relative to six is, and I think you're speaking to this or potentially implying it, but I'm not actually sure if this is what you're saying. So here's my theory, is that six is consciously or unconsciously aware of how accidentally influenceable It can be, like it's so absorptive of information, and it's so, you know, it's, in my theory, it's kind of like trying to piece together a map of reality based on other people's maps, looking for external guidance to kind of support an anchor too. No, that really resonates with me. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, okay, I'm, I'm on the lookout for more information other maps that I can stitch into this that to make my map more reliable, more certain.

Yeah, it doesn't feel like my map will ever be done. Yes, yeah. Like, and part of the reason I was like, I don't want to be the poster child for anti fascism, because I don't know, I don't have all the answers. That's

part of the anti arrogance of six, and especially six nine stem right? It's like, it's like, I'm, I'm all the map is, is so much more infinite than I could ever hold. And I'm trying to piece it together. I'm a servant towards piecing this together. But I don't want to be the and that's like, I don't want to be responsible for being, you know, your orientation, you know, because I'm sort of humbly in this project, trying to do it myself, like I don't know what's going on. I'm trying. I'm just doing my best to figure it out. Best to figure it out. Yeah? But then there's this, let's see. And then

also there's like, the super ego piece that comes in afterward, because my first thought really is like, Oh no, I'm not. I'm just a dude. But there is also, then follow up, the super ego piece of like, what if I lead someone astray? What if I look stupid because I got something wrong or my analysis wasn't good enough, yeah, and that does that piece as probably what stops me from putting myself out there, more than I do.

Okay? That makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah. That's a big deal because it's like the, you know, I think that there's something so honestly noble about the core six project of trying to get to what is true and real. And there's also this almost like perpetual humility that can, let's see, prevent the six from actually fully acknowledging, like, Damn, I've actually got a really good map at this point in my life. It's, at the very least, it's, it's something that's worth offering to other people, and I have, I could help orient others based on what I've accrued so far and

and I do have some sense of that, like there's a reason I talk about this with people, and I'm trying to get more comfortable with just like telling people I'm an anarchist and I don't like nationalism and all of this stuff, not that I need everyone to agree with me on everything I really don't. I worked really hard on not being. Active when people disagree with me and I, turns out, being diplomatic is just not panicking when other people disagree and revealing part of your location. Anyway.

Yeah, solidity. You know, that's the whole, yeah, yeah,

yeah, um, I've lost the thread again. But,

well, okay, I have, I have it in my head. There's two threads. First of all, just to finish this one little finish this one little loop, and then I'll come back to the bigger one. The little loop is that as a core attachment type in the mental center six is refraining from posturing, at least, especially six nine, refraining from Posturing as the expert or authority, because it's template for relationship, especially social six it's template for relationship is that I'm available to receive your guidance, and I will happily attach into your for or I'm available to absorb what you've got, but I'm not necessarily trusting that You're available to receive what I've got.

I mean, yeah, that that makes me feel like dying inside a little bit. So I think there's some true stuff that I hadn't considered before. Now, okay, but also, but also, a thing I'm thinking too, is that it's, it's actually more complicated than that, because there is that proselytizing quality to six,

yes, totally, yes, yes, yes. There is Yeah.

And like, I am using that too. So it really depends on like, on like, it's not that I'm going to shut you down because we don't have the same politics, but I am going to be a little bit more in proselytizing mode if I feel like you're more to the center than I am, and you might still say good things, and I'm I will probably still hear those, but it's a different space than I'm in. If it's like someone that I think has better judgment than

me, there you go. That's yeah. Let me frame this in a in a wider attachment context. So like I the way I see attachment types is that, and this is true in with in nine for the body sensor, three for the heart sensor, and six for the mental sensor, is that there is a like, an a priori assumption that the the environment is given and not influenceable by me. So like nine is like the environment is set. In order for me to fit in here, I have to squeeze myself into whatever grooves are available. But I can't impact my environment and shape it into the kind of place that I can feel comfortable. Yeah, absolutely not three similarly is like whatever people value out there that's not changeable. So in order for me to value in order for them to value me, I have to I have to become what they already value. I can't just be myself and then be a magnet to change what they value so that they turn towards me and value me. And six in the mental center is like people already believe what they believe. And in order for me to have a relationship where we share mine, we're co navigating, we're seeing the same thing, then I have to it. Let I have to, I have to go to them, basically, I have to, I have to be shared mine on their terms. But I don't feel, or there's a kind of an a priori sense of, you could say, like, powerlessness to to actually influence the collective mind.

Yeah, I don't feel, I don't feel like I can do that at all.

Yeah, yeah. And, and so the six proselytizing thing feels like it comes from this. It's like a plaintiff. I hope somebody hears me out there, you know, like, I'm gonna give this signal out, but I don't think anybody's gonna really listen, but I hope they do, you know, kind of yeah thing.

I mean, the context I'm thinking of is like, I I know I can influence people one on one. Yes, that makes sense. Yeah, that I do believe in very strong and I think that's why I do, like talk about my politics and share about myself. And it's in part so that, like it starts conversations. It's also partially just self defense, but in the sense that if people decide they hate it, they can't say it and tell them who I was up front. Shit, I lost the thread again. What was the last thing you said?

Was saying that the six, the six proselytizing is coming from. It's like

a right, but, yeah, yeah. So on that one, on one level, I do feel very empowered, but at the group level, I feel invisible, right, right,

right, yeah, yeah. And, man, I mean, there's a lot of there's triple attachment also happening here. I have to just call that out, because I think. You know, with with a hexat fix in any of those centers, you might have a little bit more inherent oomph or belief in your ability to impact the space. Yeah,

and most of my wings are frustration. And I definitely, I see the way I'm addicted to my own frustration, right? I see the way I get frustrated and stay there.

Yeah, yeah. So the other, the macro thread that we were exploring too is how Okay, let me get there.

I think I said fixes. I meant wings. Most of my wings are frustration,

right? Because you have, okay, you have six, wing seven, nine, wing one and three, wing two, right? Yeah, yeah. Getting back to the other macro thread. I can't remember exactly what this was in relation to, but what I wanted to, I have a theory that I want to run by you and see if this, if you relate to this where so fives are the rejection type in the mental sensor, and they're already coming from, like a preemptive assumption that they're not being influenced by other people. You know, they just the castle wall is already erected. They're not being penetrated mentally. But six is constantly open and scanning for, is there better information out there. Is there better? Is there a better? Is it? Does someone have better judgment than me that I haven't seen before? That is like, is this patch of the map that I've grabbed from somewhere else interchangeable for a better one? If someone sees better than me,

it's not, it's not even an if, for me, it is. There are people out there better maps than me, and I'm

looking for this. Yeah, and this is part of the humility of six too. It's like the the six truth seeking project is like, I want, I want the best, most optimal orientation, and I have a humility that it's not gonna all come from me. And there are people who've traveled the path before, and people who have better judgment, or more expert, or whatever than I am. But six has sort of, sort of unconsciously a like a an over willingness to believe that other people have better judgment than them. You could say, like, a, it's like a, it's like a preemptive dismissal of my own judgment, and a preemptive putting other others judgment, potentially on a pedestal until I look at it and I can dismiss them. And, you know, once I if I don't know how to put this, if, if I notice that someone has bad judgment, I can basically just decide not to listen to them, but I'm constantly scanning and open for the people that I can let in to influence me to have better, reliable orientation.

Yeah, that's a really, yeah. I really like that wording.

Okay, yeah, okay. I guess my question is, at one point, do you feel like? Do you feel like you will arrive at a point where you feel like you are an expert on something, where you could stand on a pulpit and and be the spokesperson or the the poster child for anarchism or

something? I don't want that. I don't want it. Okay. I don't want it. It doesn't that doesn't feel useful or helpful to anyone, especially because my brand of anarchism is like, very communist influence, like I don't I think that it needs to be a collective effort to work. So, like, I want to influence things when I know I have something good to say,

and this isn't. I think there are other areas of my life where, like, I might want to be seen as an expert, but this isn't one of them. This doesn't feel like it even needs that I

see, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. I guess this is also coming from, and this has happened to me in other conversations with sixes, where I'm coming from a core three perspective of, like, yeah, don't you want to, don't you want

to be recognition, yeah, yeah. But, like, it's not that I don't ever want that. Like we, we touched on this briefly in like, the pre talk, like, the first time we talked like, I didn't come to you to do this. You came to me, uh huh, right, to do this interview, and I could have come to you at any time. And I, I, like one of my friends, was encouraging me to do it, because she knew I wanted to do it, okay, yeah, but I wanted, but there was a part of me that wanted to be chosen, like, wanted to be recognized,

okay, yeah, yeah, okay.

And if I don't to you first, it wouldn't have been the same,

yeah, that's, that's good. That is, yeah, it's funny. You know, there is a specialness in being. I get it. I do. I do know what you mean. You want to be you want to be reached out to. Everyone wants to be reached out to, to be invited

like. You think you invited me. That means you think I have good judgment and smart things to say. That's great. I love that for me. Yeah,

absolutely, yeah, yeah. And then what does that? What does that do? What does that do for you? That you know that you you have my voice on that.

I think it helps shore up my, my ability to feel that way about myself.

Yeah, okay, yeah, right. It's like, oh, here's someone whose judgment I respect, who is who has faith, faith in my job, or something

like that. Yeah? I think that's the downside of the six nine humility STEM is it also turns into lack of self confidence and a lack of testing of your own judgment.

Yeah, because and your words for I love these words, the anti elitism and self erasure of the six, nine stem, which are, yeah, which, which disintegrate into a kind of overly making myself small, of Not, not Yeah. It's like with that, with with that, with that heart fix last and with that's both six and nine having an anti narcissism. It's like, Ooh, I don't want to, I don't want to put myself out there. I don't want to

be the Bermuda refusing, refusing my own self gaze.

Yeah, yeah. That's very good. Refuse my own self gaze. Yeah, yeah. You know this. Okay, this does bring me to the your experience with role playing games. Sure, I want to go there for a little bit because, because I, first of all, I love role playing games myself. Also I just love I just think they're so fun and cool. But first of all, can you explain what they are for people who don't know, and then we'll get into your relationship to them.

So D and D is kind of the archetype, the classic, the the first one that ever went big. But it's a whole range of different games. They can either lean there's a lot of different ways to role play. You can you can be really into the rules, and you're just kind of the story is a structure to play with the rules and like, beat up bad guys, and that's kind of like core classic DND, or beat up good guys, if that's how you're

playing. And DND is Dungeons and Dragons. Dungeons

and Dragons. Yeah, thank you. But there are also systems that lean more a lot into the narrative, so you can use this as a way of collectively telling stories together. And that's definitely been more of my experience of how LARPing works. But also, there are tabletop games, so games you play around the table that also lean into those that more that are not quite so rules intensive. So there's, there's different ways to do this and explore this, but for me, it's always been more about the narrative and getting to play with different honestly. At this point it's been, like 20 years I've been doing this. It kind of feels like exploring different parts of myself rather than stuff. Yeah, myself

absolutely, yeah, that's where I'm going with this. Because, yeah, it's because when you pick a character and then, I mean, people don't, people who've never done this don't understand you are literally trying to act as that character, you know? And so if you are like, okay, just revealing something about myself. So, you know, when I was in middle school, I always chose to be so in dungeon dragons, I was always the character that was like, the hulking, smasher type of guy. So I was like, you know, half orc barbarian with a giant sword or hammer kind of person, yeah. And it's just so contrary to who I sort of, quote, unquote, actually am. But it is representing a dimension. You could say I hit a shadow self, or something like that. And I think it's so interesting from a, you could call it an inner work. Point of view, I suppose, is that when you enter these spaces where you're imagining into and then actually trying to embody, especially in a LARPing context, we're actually doing it, you know, literally live action, yeah, live action role playing, where you're being this character, it's kind of a way to try on another persona and to get in touch with and cultivate and express qualities of yourself that you don't typically in your default state. Yeah, and so you mentioned that you were really drawn to your favorite character they ever played was someone who's, like, really expressive and self permissive.

Yeah, I don't, I don't remember the context of that anymore, but I can think of maybe two characters that I could that kind of fit the bill. I had a lerp character 20 years ago now. Yeah, who just I cried a lot as her, like, I physically

cried. That's the one I was talking about. Yeah, okay, yeah.

And just like, yelled at people, like, I when I'm when I'm not properly medicated. I cry a lot anyway, but I think it was, I think it was good for my nervous system to cry as someone else, to kind of get that out without torturing myself personally. But also, yeah, it felt really great to yell at people that's not at that age. I was completely disconnected from my own anger. Like, I remember, like at some point in, in and around that window when I was playing that character, I remember thinking like, Is it normal that I never get angry, and knowing it wasn't, but not being able to deal with it? Okay? Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, getting to explore that through characters is fun. I had another character, like, 15 years after that, who was really pushy and really demanding and rude, and that was fun to play too, for the same reasons, right? It's like letting out all of your your mean, reactive thoughts.

Yeah, it's, it's all this anti nine stuff too. It's like, it's like, I am going to take up space and be huge with my emotions. And, yeah, not care about the impact, you know, not even think about the impact. I'm just going to do it, you know, yeah. And I

remember, I remember doing it to one of the other players of the in that party once, and he just kind of froze and and, like, I dropped back into me, and I was like, we can just, we don't have to roleplay this out. We can just, like, talk through what we think the characters were due. He was like, No, I want to do it, but, but, yeah, like, it is it is it is not you, so and it gives but it's still you. It can be still you. That's how you're doing

it? Yeah, I wonder. So another six I really respect is, is Courtney Smith, and this is something that she has, she has done as a as a modality of inner work, is like invent characters, not necessarily in a like a D and D or LARPing context, but like, just you sit and you invent a character that represents some shadow aspect of yourself, and then you actually embody it for 1520, minutes, hour a time, or whatever, and you just kind of do

it, yeah? And basically, every queer person I know who role plays experimented with being queer in games before they were willing to admit it to themselves. Oh, that's very interesting. It makes sense, right? It's a safe container to explore that it's not you, yeah, and so long as your table isn't going to be shitty about queer people, you're good.

I can't tell if it's a cop out or not, but this, this idea terrifies me, of like, role playing and because I've actually, I mean, I love D and D and stuff like that, but actually, like, LARPing, like going on to, like, to a field or something, and choosing a character, and then being that character and improvising as that character, as a core heart type, it's like hard to get out of my own image or something like that, into to shift into the dimension. I bet you know what I mean. Yeah. And I

think, I think maybe being heart last actually helps there, because I neglect to make an image all the time.

That's part of the wisdom of heartlessness. Is like not being self conscious all the time. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think yeah, but I think super ego type counterbalances that a lot. Unfortunately, that

makes sense. Yeah, there's plenty of self lashings I'm sure there. Yeah, but I'm not thinking

about it. I'm not thinking about it. I'm not thinking about proactively managing it. I'm thinking about what I did wrong after I did it

wrong. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, yeah. So I'm curious, kind of, now that we're into the groove of the conversation, anything else that's coming up for you around memory loss and how you rely relate to that now as a core six

I think I said this before the camera went on, but I use the words like this memory loss has been haunting me for 25 years, right? This loss, and it does, it does feel like a haunting, the what we talked about, about not like having the narrative structure of my life, of not being able to reliably tell my own autobiography without feeling like I might be misleading people or myself. It's, it's bad, it's, it's really hard. I don't it's hard to even put into words like the the distrust it engenders and the the fear

around actually, around the time of the attachment support group, I actually, on a whim, fucked off to a playwriting retreat for five days and wrote about this. It was like an auto like, was specifically framed as a, like, write your story. So I had like, a seven minute play about what it's like to have memory loss. Yeah, like, in pretty true to type. I think it ended up, I ended up pulling on a lot of threads of like, like, some stuff I considered putting in it was like, Okay, if so I don't remember. But none of us holds all of ourself, like your parents, remember things about you that you don't remember. So do your friends, like all of the people you've ever known, know things about you that you don't you. Um, like, or, and even just like on a more basic level, like, the way I'm trying to hide from myself, but other people still see me anyway, right? Like, even at my most self obscuring, I was still visible to people. And it's that thing where, like, memories also a collective endeavor, right? The way we tell stories about cultures and nations, that's all collective memory. So it's never just like what you hold in your own head. It's never just you that helps them. It's also terrifying in other ways, like what happens when my parents eventually die, right? And there are some things that are supposed to go with them, like your very early life, right? No one remembers what they were like, is it? No, you don't remember baby, your baby experiences. But, yeah, I think coming to grips with the fact that, like, it's never, it was never just me is out there. Like, it helps, right? It helps ground that. Like, oh, right, it this is, there is some sort of common experience here, even if mine is maybe more extreme. I think I'm slowly coming to a place to where I just care less. Like, okay, so I don't remember, I am still actually a whole person, and it's hard, right? Because we live in a culture that's obsessed with memories identity, like there's so much work about who are you if you don't remember? Yeah? I

mean, even that was my whole framing of the entrance to this conversation,

yeah, right. But it turns out, like somatically, you might still remember things. Um, I'm pretty sure it didn't change the things I like. Uh, brain injuries can obviously do that, though, but I'm that's not necessarily what memory loss does. Um, yeah. And I think even if I hadn't had all this memory loss, there still would have been this work of trying to, like, excavate myself as an adult, because that's just part of the Bermuda bullshit.

There's a lot coming up for me about what you just said to there's two main points. First is just, I think that that's such a cool there is something core six about that perspective, that you know, orientation is something that is collectively held, but is not internally generated in isolation, and it's, I mean, we live in a socially embedded context, and meaning is a social reality. And who you are is not something that you hold just for yourself. It's, it's, you know, everyone has a different piece of the mosaic or facet of the diamond, or something of who you are, you could say, in the collective shared tapestry, where everyone contributes their own thread, kind of thing. So, yeah, the other piece is how, like the core fear of the mental center is that I can't be certain of my own perceptions. And, yeah, and, you know, it's like, that is actually an existential reality. It's just a truth. You know, the fear is the fear is based on a truth we can't actually ever be certain. Reality is always more infinitely complex than we can ever hold as a map. No map is ever the territory, and what you see depends on the theory and the lens you're looking with. And this, this way you just pointed out how much we value memory as as the way that we form a framework and orientation or way of seeing ourselves, or anything in reality. Let's see how to put this. It's kind of like you're calling out a central delusion of the mental center, or the way that we participate in a in the illusion of creating certainty together, where we draw upon my memory, your memory, and then come to sort of an agreement about what truth we're going to accept right now, and how, in a sense, our stories about who we are is based In this. Anytime it's based in a narrative sense of self, it is perpetuating a an illusion. It's part of the it's like, how the mental Center and the heart center collude, you could say, to to form a self image. You know where it's like, I want to know who I am in such a way that I can be certain of who I am, and then be certain of my own self worth. And I do that by organizing my memories of myself and framing up a sense of who I am and then justifying my own worth myself. But if I don't have that memory to draw from, it's like according to a collective framing where you have to have memory in order to know who you are, then that falls apart. But it's like you still get. This, and you still have an identity, and it's, it just doesn't conform to the kind of conventional way of framing one. But there's still, like, a felt sense of who you are that you're carrying.

I mean, I mean, here's where we're getting into, like, the Bermuda of it all too, right? Like, also, what is my felt sense of my identity and, you know, not wanting to really see it, which is a weird contrast with this, like, actual loss, right? Like, here's where I'm refusing, but here's where it's actually just the memories aren't there. They don't exist anymore. Yeah, yeah. And I think part of what feels so bad about that is it's completely outside of my control. I can't choose whether or not I remember. I'm

always fascinated by stories of how, for example, when people in prison find a level of inner freedom that they could that they would never found on the outside, or when people who have suffered major medical issues that it Kind of makes them confront or lose. I don't know. It's like they're the things that they used to anchor to for a sense of stability and sense of self and all the stuff, they just fall away. And it's almost like, when you confront that, there's a, you could say, there's an opportunity for, like, advanced spiritual development there. And it strikes me that it's kind of how you're approaching it, where it's kind of like, yeah, I just don't have, I don't have the memory here. But rather than just be, like, constantly aggrieved about it and like, oh gosh, I can't find a sense of self anymore, because I don't have this sort of, like, a an evolved sense of, like a more present based, less past based sense of self that, you know, part, I guess you know what I'm saying.

Yeah, I can't anchor myself in my early life, so I have to, I have to figure out now, right? And also, I think, I mean, I've talked about a couple of things here, but I also haven't talked about gender yet, and how, like reevaluating everything through like coming out and realizing who, like what is actually more authentic for me, which is like being trans masculine, right? I um, like I could, I didn't. I said earlier, I didn't really have a strong sense that I was trans in my early life. I kind of figured it out in my late 20s and then, but never, didn't quite grapple with it, so kind of shoved it into a closet and didn't look at it again, yeah, and didn't really come to terms with it till, like, my mid 30s, early mid 30s, and but now I can look back and be like, Oh yeah, there's a whole bunch of stuff there that, like, people who aren't trans don't do or, like, understanding, I understand now that probably part of the reason I was bullied is that I wasn't particularly gender conformed. Particularly gender conforming, and I wasn't doing being a girl very well. And, like, obviously, whatever the fuck that means, like, there's no being, there's no universal right there anyway, yeah. So just it's that the coming out is reinventing yourself, right like embracing being trans is reevaluating yourself and being able to access these new parts of yourself that you had to shut down when you weren't looking at that because you Couldn't acknowledge them without looking at them anyway, go ahead,

something that I've never really thought about, but like one of the things I was,

let me say it this way. Do you ever feel confined by the word trans?

Sometimes I think it, I think it's very easy for people to make assumptions about me when they hear that word, yeah, that may not actually be true about me. I've, I've known I've been, I've been surrounded by trans people for a lot longer than I knew it was trans, which is honestly kind of the first clue. But like knowing this many people with these different relationships to gender, like I. It makes clear how narrow the rest of society is on it. So when they hear that word from you, they're already assuming a certain narrative which may or may not have anything to do with you. I So in that sense, it's really restrictive, yeah. And I think in the long run, like, as useful as I find that label right now, I think in the long run, it would be nice to just live in a world where I didn't have to use it, you know, like all of these labels around sexuality and gender, and you know, they're, I don't want to knock them. There have been points in my life where they were really, really important to me, and they're not unimportant now. But it is nice to just live rather than agonize over which box I belong in, there you go, yeah, and to try to conform to whichever box I put myself in as like someone under the BI umbrella of like, agonized like, right, like, lived in that by fog of like, am I by enough? Or am I really into this or that? Or, you know, too much it would be easier in a world to put less pressure on you to define yourself that way,

yeah, or

had more grace when you changed,

yeah, yeah. That was really beautifully put. And I was thinking about specifically that concept in core six territory, where it's like six is so sensitive to and aware of the categories that are held by the collective mind, and there's this constant, I would say, ambivalence in six, that I see around being like, the usefulness of labels and also the boxiness of them, you know, and you know this idea of like not fitting into a binary gender paradigm, and then finding myself in a new category, but then other people have perceptions about that category, and then when they hear the word trans, they make assumptions about me and how that word is held in the collective mind. That produces a whole other thing. And yeah, I guess that's where the spirit of that question came from. And it's kind of like the idea, maybe, is to live in a in an a categorical space, you know, just to to be what I am moment to moment. You could say is that, is that? Am I? Am I? Yeah, not really. I mean,

there's that is part of the truth. Part of it is also labels can feel really great. They can be really empowering. I don't want to tell someone like, like, I like my labels. You know, I have a relationship with them. I chose them on purpose I would feel weird. Was like, No, you're not allowed to have labels ever again. And we actually talked about this in library school, not about not through the lens of gender, but about like organized like, when you go to library school, you learn how to organize information and how to think about information. And one of the things we talked about was categories are terrible. Actually. They are really restrictive. They pin things down that probably can't be or shouldn't be pinned down. They don't work that great. Like, you take a cataloging class and you're like, this book could go in four different places and they would all be correct at the same time. They're the best tool we have.

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's kind of like we're running into the nature of language, yeah, because to call anything anything is to pluck it out from the primordial unity of existence, and to say this is this thing that I'm carving out is whatever name, whatever I'm labeling it, you know. And the act, the a lingua, the linguistic act, you could say, is making a distinction, where you call something something and not something else by implication. And, yeah, yeah. I mean, it is. It is just one of those, like necessary limitations, or kind of fundamental limitations that we live in and language. Also, Heidegger is a German philosopher who says we live in a house of language. It sort of, it defines our it defines our world, right? Live. We live in categories that are that are created by language. And I forget

bilingual. There's times when I don't have the right word in English, but I have it in French, or I don't have it in French, but I have it in English. Yeah, right. Because this the cultures that produce those languages are emphasizing slightly different things,

yes. And this is where I'm going with the I think that there's something just powerfully six about this, like six has this, I think, like precocious awareness of or constant wrestling with an ambivalence towards the predetermined categories and linguistic distinctions that comprise the world that we live in and agree upon in the collective mind. And it's always like, is this category right? I don't know.

Is. I don't know. We get mad if you have the wrong categories. Yeah,

that's right. That's right. It's kind of like shaking our fists at like, the authority on high, like, there's, there should be these categories. Aren't right? They should be different categories. Yeah, no,

yeah. And, I mean, that's how the discourse is playing out right now in the public eye about trans people, right? Like, only two chapters, and not in the sense that you can be a binary trans person who fully transitions, just like, No, yeah. And we're over here, yeah? And, like, yeah, yeah, they, I mean, the the, I mean, the arguments within the trans community are diverse too. There's plenty of trans people who think only binary genders are real and blah, blah, blah, but yeah, it's all of us arguing over definitions, so they're just acknowledging what's there or medicalizing what's there so they don't have to treat it as

real, yeah, yeah. So one more topic, and then probably come to a close, but I wanted to bring out the just the category of integrating your sexual blind spot, yeah, and what that's been like for you. And actually, I'll read something you wrote as a prompt. You said when I realized the whole point of looking at someone in a sexual way was to get caught, that blew my fucking mind. Yeah, so can you say what that means and why? Was that mind blowing?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, like, a social self press, like, you don't ever want to get caught looking in that way, because, like, that's gonna fuck up the social that's gonna fuck up your self press. That's right,

yeah, right, yeah. It's a destabilizing, yes,

yes, yeah, right. It is destabilizing. And that's I get that. That's the point. Now, yeah, like, I don't remember exactly how I got there, but I was, I was talking with a friend when it happened, and she just laughed at me because she's, this was the social, sexual friend I mentioned at the top. She was like, Yeah, no shit, but yeah, realizing that and that it's like that. It was like, unlocking that. Like you have to lean into the tension. Like, now I am, like, on a body level understanding, like, oh, that's what you're actually going for. It's not just running away from it, running away from it, running away from it, shutting it down. Yeah.

I love that phrase, getting caught. It's like, it's six two, you know, it's like, it's, it's like, it's like, I didn't want to, I don't want to be, I don't want to do the I don't want to do the bad thing. I'm trying to be responsible over here. Yeah, yeah, being caught, I love that. And so, yeah, what's, maybe, what's, what's the journey been like for you to towards this more self exposing way of being.

For me, a lot of it is still in the interpersonal I think there are ways where, like, there, when I think about it, okay, so obviously there's the part of it where you're like, like, meeting someone's eyes and holding that gaze when you're both attracted to each other and going for it, yeah? But also, there's the parts of, like, your own flavor, and that, that part of is kind of feels like it's on hold, actually, because I so get back to gender, right? Like, my inner experience of myself is like, as like a like this is the closest whatever. What am I struggling with here? Okay, so I'm like my my felt sense of I often call myself a trans man, for simplicity's sake. It's like, close enough for horseshoes. So when I say like, my sense of myself is like a feminine man, like, mostly as a man, but, like, you know, yeah, so that that's that is my felt sense of myself, and that is what I would like to show the world. Is my flavor. But I have this chest that I have, I have this voice that I have. It ain't, it's not. Happening unless I physically transition. It's never going to happen. It's never going to be read correctly. And the closest I can get to that is kind of like an androgynous woman. So there's just, like, a real like, I'm just stuck. And there are probably other ways where I could show more flavor, but that's like, really fucking annoying frankly.

Okay, yeah, what's annoying

that I can't I can't be read correctly, like I can't even if I leaned into that flavor right now, it would be completely misunderstood.

Yeah? The Yeah, yeah. That just, it's so fast, like this, this, let's see the framing of being misunderstood, of being of being read correctly. You know, there's like a kind of attunement piece there, right? It's like, Yeah, but it's attune. Attunement based on the collectively held categories that people are entering into an interaction with you

with, yeah, but that's also what's happening. I don't know. I get what you're saying,

yeah. It's yeah. That's what it's what's happening, yeah, yeah.

And maybe there are people maybe, like, people who are less attachmenty, can just say, Fuck it and do it anyway and like, it's, yeah, I don't. I'm struggling to see the point of doing that when I don't think it will be received Right. Like, if the point is to polarize, but I'm not polarizing on the right thing. Why am I bothering,

I see, yeah, so that's like an, that's like an extra hurdle in terms of showcasing your sexual flavor. Is that sensibility? Yeah, yeah, sense,

um, but, like, it's, it has, I've, like, absolutely changed the people at Chase, right? Like, I don't, you know, like, unless, like, our eyes meet, and it's like a lightning bolt. I kind of don't want it anymore, yeah, and it's been recognizing, like, if it doesn't have that, but I still feel drawn to you. It's probably more of a social crush.

Oh, interesting. So is that what you were meaning when you said earlier that there are more things you could do, but those things are annoying.

Oh no. I just mean, like, no, that's not what I misunderstood you. Okay? I assume there. I assume there are other ways I could probably show flavor that have are not just related to, like, Gen, strictly to gender, okay, got it, yeah, but it is annoying that that gender piece is such a something I worked so hard to excavate and now cannot still not do that's annoying.

Got it? Okay, that's what I Okay. I understand. Yeah, same page. Got it. I did the work.

I individuated myself, and now you guys just won't receive it. God damn

it, yeah. What are the when you say there are things you could do to showcase yourself more? What are those things?

I don't know. That's, it's, that's part of the work left to do. But probably I don't know, just like being, I don't know, maybe be more into the arts. Like, I feel like I could probably be leaning more into that, and I mentioned that earlier, right? Like, how, like, that always ends up being, like, the third

priority, yeah, yeah. I wonder being the least important. One. I wonder if there's a three fixed last thing going on there, too.

Oh yeah, for sure. I you know that's really and that's part of what's slowing me down on all these things, too, right? Like, yes, part of my problem with trying to do all the things I want to and need to do is disability. But part of it is being three last Yeah, right. I get these. I get these. I really only get these short bursts of that, like three drive, and then they're gone. Otherwise, I'm just relying on reactivity to get stuff done. And that's not that is not a good way to get things done.

Yeah, yeah. Or Yeah. Another way to like the three, there's obviously the productivity element of three, but there's also, or active activation element of three, but there's also, let's see, like, submitting myself to your gaze, you know, showing you who I am. Kind of like, yeah, I guess in a sexual instinct way, it's like, it's like, fanning out my peacock feathers. Yeah, you know, it's like, not just walking around, like, knowing I have like, this amazing tail, but actually, like, showing it to you know, yeah,

yeah, yeah. When I was 19, I realized I could just ask out my crush instead of just pining quietly in the corner. And since I've had that revelation that is, that is what I do, I'm very good at starting something so that aspect of like, getting in touch with, like, actual. Attraction in my body. Like actual sexual attraction is not totally foreign, but it is also it's frustrating how often it doesn't work out.

I get that, yeah,

like I see, I see this thing happen now, like at least a few times a year, and usually chase it, and it just yeah, like, Oh, I've only dated one of those people, and that didn't work out. Yeah, yeah. It's incredibly

vulnerable to put yourself out there that way.

Yeah, yeah. And there are days when, like, I'll see someone like, that's also I'll see someone cute on the subway. And just like today, I do not have the energy to put myself out there. I'm not especially getting a vibe from them. It's so much easier when you can tell it's reciprocal, yeah, yeah. When, like, when, sometimes I experience it as, like, an unfurling like, there was this one person where, like, I saw them from across the room, and they were talking to other people, and then my whole body just went, Oh, like, like a fern unfurling at sped up time, and that, I think that was real too, in a way, that the light, we couldn't have the lightning, because We weren't it wasn't happening at the same moment. I kind of assume when I really feel that way, it's at least a little bit mutual, yeah. But you can kind of tell sometimes it's really not,

yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, I mean, this is a really rich topic, and there's a lot to say here, but one of the things that came up for me here is that, like, part of that three fix. Last thing is, actually, look, I was gonna say it's like the three assertive energy is, like assertiveness around making you look at me like it's like I'm going to be in such a way that you're admiring gaze can't help but fall on me, and

that's not really what I'm doing either. Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm much more direct than that, although I'm learning to enjoy more of that. Hey, look at me. I want you to look at me with that comes with the SX, yeah, yeah,

yeah, that's, it's, it's, it's, it's really interesting. I actually, I haven't quite put this together before. How the the sexual instinct? Display elements has some overlap with three energy, you know? Yeah, I didn't quite put that together before, but there is something. There really is something to it, yeah, that willingness to actually show you all my colors and to kind of like, do the dance, you know, like, do the do the mating bird dance kind of thing.

Yeah, I hadn't clocked that before either, but it makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I occasionally when I'm out, sometimes when there's no one else around, really inevitably, when I'm out walking, I'll just, like, try dropping into that feeling like that of that flavor of that juice, and it's like, inevitably, right into my hips, um, and also, like my expression changes. It goes from like, the polite so neutrality, like the polite social neutrality, to something a lot more bitchy.

Yeah, there you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I

can just feel the shift in myself, my expressions, doing the energy. I'm putting off little more swagger, yeah, a little more Yeah, yeah. Really though it is, like, it is that display, even if, in that moment, I'm not really doing it for anyone, I'm just doing

it for me, yes, which is, actually, that's the whole, I mean, yeah, in the sexual instinct class that John and Alexandra taught that was, like their whole emphasis, the entire thing was that the sexual instinct is the healthy sexual instinct, you could say, or the actualized sexual instinct is not even necessarily in relation to an object or a target. You know, it's about embodying it. You know, your own sense of like, feeling yourself, yeah. And that's

exactly what that is in those moments. And I think, I think part of the reason I mostly do it when I'm already moving is because then I get that, that sense of motion. I can really, I can really feel like I'm embodying it, versus just like sitting here in the chair when there's not much happening, everything's kind of static,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool, yeah, so maybe we'll come to a close. Yeah. What's this been like for you? And how do

you feel good? I wanted to learn some new things about myself along the way, and I think I did. Mm. Um, and I think this is probably more true to my type structure than many others, but I like talking about myself, so that was fun, too.

Yeah, you know, I had an insight about three, last versus three first in this conversation, I realized, and actually I what I realized was the it gave me an insight into the architecture of how we missed each other in that last conversation. Yeah, because I just was, like, my whole, my whole paradigm and orientation and way of like, accessing another person is through this three lens of like, what's that? Let me see like, let me hone in on who you are, how you're seeing yourself and and especially with my three wing two sensibility, it's like, let me like, get in there and kind of help activate this. But then with you having three last it's like that place in you is already somewhat kind of, I don't know, shrouded, you could say. Plus, with the memory loss stuff, it's like, there's a, it's you're, you're arriving into that sense of your identity from a different, I don't know, kind of paradigm than the way that I typically see it. And so, yeah, just get that was like, oh, so anyway, I'm having a kind of aha moment about

that. Yeah. I feel like we're the ideal case study for that structure, pretty much identical, except for the three and the six being flipped.

It's really, yeah, profound, right? It's profound. How? But it

really, it really highlights, like that one fundamental difference,

yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Center order,

really, it is different. Yeah,

cool. Well, thank you for doing this. Thanks for being so open, and thanks again for being willing to talk through all that stuff with your childhood memories and stuff. And, yeah, I learned a lot from this conversation, and I'm excited to watch it back. So yeah, thanks for doing this. Thank you for tuning into this conversation with arelle. If you liked this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe if you're watching on YouTube or if you're listening to this as a podcast, then you can leave up to a five star review and also leave some comments if you're listening on Apple or Spotify. Those are free and very effective ways of supporting me and the show and the work that we do at the Enneagram school. If you're curious about the Enneagram and the work that we do at the Enneagram school, then I would love for you to come check us out at our website, the Enneagram school.com, if you get on our email list, we will send you updates about when we release new episodes just like this, as well as when we release announcements about workshops, courses, retreats and other things of that nature. On our website, you can also find a catalog of interviews just like this, and you can search them by type and instinctual stacking. And there's also a lot of free content on the Enneagram itself, just a bunch of orienting content type descriptions, overviews of the whole thing, et cetera. And I would love for you also to check out our intro course. If you would like to take a slightly deeper dive, it's a great place to start if you're a beginner, or a great place to get back up to basics. If you're an advanced student, if you think that you're a good candidate to be on this show, then I'd love to hear from you. You can contact me through the contact form at the Enneagram school.com Just shoot me a message right through there. Preference strongly goes to people who have gotten officially typed by the typing team at enneagrammer. I think that the typing team at enneagrammer is the world's most accurate Enneagram typing team, and you can check out their typing services@enneagrammer.com as well as their members area, where you can watch them type celebrities in real time. Finally, this podcast is part of a larger group of collaborators, the Enneagram school, the any enneagrammer, as well as insomnia, the podcast where the Dream Girls talk about the unconscious and dreams and the Enneagram, as well as we have a new podcast called House of Enneagram, where we are using the Enneagram as a lens to talk about art, pop culture, also just to do deeper dives on different crevices of the Enneagram that haven't explored yet, etc. Explored yet, et cetera. It's kind of the new creative house that we're all living under. And I recommend you go check it out. All the links to everything will be in the show notes. Go check them out down there. And that is it for me. Thank you very much, and I will see you next time

you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai