This week on the podcast we continue with the Business of Outdoor Recreation series with Dennis Nelms to discuss the growing industry of climbing in Arkansas. Dennis is the owner of Climb Solutions LLC and Vertical LLC. During the episode Dennis shares his personal journey with climbing in Northwest Arkansas and throughout the United States as well as his work now to expand climbing in the state of Arkansas. He outlines Arkansas' abundance of high quality, accessible rock formations and highlights the accessibility that is available only in our state for the sport. Dennis also shares his passion-driven path and important advice for pursuing interests, no matter the job.

And when you look at the central US, and you look

at what climbing availability there is, if you go from Chicago

to Houston, and then out to Oklahoma City, and over to

Memphis say 85% of the climbing in that whole area is here in

the Ozarks.

Welcome to the Be Epic podcast brought to you

by the Sam M. Walton College of Business at the University of

Arkansas. I'm your host Brent Williams. Together, we'll

explore the dynamic landscape of business and uncover the

strategies, insights, and stories that drive business

today. Well, today, I have with me, Dennis Nelms and Dennis owns

Climb Solutions LLC, based out of Northwest Arkansas. So

Dennis, thanks for joining me today.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me here.

Well, excited to have you here. And talk about

outdoor recreation. We're going to talk about climbing more

specifically. But maybe I need to start with you. Tell me a

little bit about you. Tell me about your background. And then

we'll kind of get into how you got into climbing.

Ok. So we don't have that much time. So I'll

keep it short as I can. But I grew up here in Fayetteville,

went to the U of A and was introduced climbing and when I

was 20. I was going to a fraternity and just I was a lost

ex football player that had no direction and just got hooked

and just fell in love with it and decided that's what I wanted

to do with my time. And so I've over a period of time learned as

much as I could here in Northwest Arkansas and then set

off for a 10 year journey and lived out of my truck and

traveled all over the country to different climbing areas and

destinations and worked around outdoor education in the summer

times where I the focus was climbing. But it was a lot of

backpacking and soul searching for kids. And then in the

wintertime I worked around the ski industry as a ski technician

working on skis because I grew up working on cars as a kid. And

that was kind of the beginning of my journey. Fast forward

three decades later. Here we are. Back in Arkansas. I had

worked with my dad on on development of of Adventure

Subaru and worked really hard on that. And then in 2013, I

decided I want to get back to climbing and spend more time on

that. So started looking at other business ventures that

would incorporate climbing and kind of stumbled across climbing

gyms I didn't do a lot of climbing in gyms, actually been

maybe half a dozen times before deciding that was where I was

going to spend some energy. And partnered with some guys out of

Nashville and we built Climb Bentonville. And in that I've

since kind of stepped back and I'm not involved in operations,

and still kind of twiddling my thumbs thinking what am I gonna

do next. And then mer met the guys at Ropeswing in the

process. Got got to really know Gary Vernon. And he kept asking

me questions about climbing. And so I was like, look, just,

let's, let's just start doing this consulting and I'll help

you kind of formulate a plan. And so over the last three years

I've been working pretty, pretty much full time on, you know, the

strategy for accessibility for climbing in the state and what

does that really look like? You know, what we're trying to

achieve is make this the most accessible, accessible and

easiest place to learn to climbing in this in the country.

You know, when you look at climbing areas across country,

there's the Yosemite valleys and the Grand Tetons and these

amazing iconic places. Arkansas is never going to be that but

what they what we do have is a massive amount of moderate or

easier to middle easy climbing compared to most places in the

country. So we've kind of brought it down to the idea that

we're really going to focus on what we have as an asset and

we're going to spend our time promoting that and going forward

Well, Dennis as a as a native Arkansan, you

with that.

know, having grown up here and spent the majority of my life

here you know, I've I've always thought you know, what an

amazing set of assets this state has in the outdoors, you know,

and, and you go across the state and you know, Northwest Arkansas

is beautiful, the, the delta is beautiful in a different way,

you know, and and then you go to South Arkansas and yet in

another way. So there's this diversity. But what's what I

think is really cool is how as a state we're really kind of

embracing outdoor recreation and growing that economy. And across

the state, I just kind of wondered like, you know, how do

you see that? What are you seeing happening throughout the state?

Well, I think for me to really understand and

appreciate how much we really had, I did need to leave and go

to these most these amazing and iconic places. I mean, I was

backpacking in Sequoia and Kings Canyon with kids, or spending my

time climbing walls in Yosemite, or or going up and climbing

Mount Rainier in Washington, and they are all so amazing. But I,

I kept coming back to how amazing Arkansas is and nobody

knows it. I mean, I would get questions like, oh, you know how

to tie your shoes? You're from Arkansas Oh. You mean you can

you can read? You know, which I barely can. But it's like,

people really underestimate what we have here. And to your point,

you look at the Delta, my wife's from Dumas, Southeast Arkansas,

and I never spent any time down there. But the beauty there is

phenomenal. Just those, those big Cottonwood bottoms and just

amazing terrain. And then you come up here and it's just

these, the relief when you go into the Buffalo area is 1000

feet. And that's big. And that's I mean, it's really big compared

to a lot of places. And those, the terrain there is just

incredibly rugged. And there's so much diversity in these these

different areas. And then you go to the Ouachitas and they're

proper mountains. I was just climbing down there about three

months ago, and it felt like I was in the Sierras. And I just,

I never realized what we had before I left. And then when I

came back, I was like, oh my gosh, there's just so much here.

And we were just tipping into it and and what has been done with

the cycling, it's just like opened the door. And I think

that there's when you look at the diversity of the terrain and

the people that are coming here, it's just, it's just blowing up

in a lot of ways and it's just now starting.

You know, as I was telling you earlier, you

know, when I've had a chance to talk with Gary Vernon, I felt

very comfortable because, you know, I love to ride bicycles.

And I don't probably wouldn't have had I not been living here,

but amazing accessibility, to be able to ride a bicycle, whether

that's on the Razorback Greenway, or a world class

mountain biking trail, I don't have any experience as a

climber. And so I guess a key part of the strategy of what you

said that that was interesting to me is that you're really

trying to focus on you know, I guess the ability for someone to

get started into and easier to moderate climbs if I heard that

correctly.

And in there's been a huge uptick since the,

over the last decade, with climbing gyms becoming more and

more prevalent, the accessibility of climbing is, is

increasing more and more. And when you look at the central US,

and you look at what climbing availability there is, if you go

from Chicago to Houston, and then out to Oklahoma City, and

over to Memphis say 85% of the climate in that whole area is

here in the Ozarks. It is a huge density of really good high

quality rock. And so as those gyms pop up in those different

Metro flexes and regions, people start getting more and more

curious. And so the availability of what does that really mean

accessibility? And I've really been thinking a lot about that

it's accessible to culture, you know, the different cultures, is

it accessible to just general population? What does that

really look like? And how do you learn? I mean, you go to a

YouTube video and trust your life with it. I mean, that's a

little scary. And then you go to a gym and, you know, the gyms

are about the environment inside those walls. And so part of this

is about how do we transition people from those gyms to more

outdoor climbing and and the adventurous side of climbing.

You know, rightly so, if you're new to climbing and you have no

one to show you what's what to do. It can be very dangerous.

There's that's the reality of it. But with some education with

some understanding, it becomes very safe. In fact, I would

argue, I've been hurt more on mountain bikes than I have

climbing in three decades.

Well maybe I might kind of build off of that

point and ask you a question. You know, when you think about a

University of Arkansas student, so, you know, roughly 32,000,

you know, ish students on this campus, we in the Walton College

are going to have between eight and 9000, you know, at a given

time, and many have grown up here, many have not, you know,

the other parts of Arkansas, other states. And, you know, so

I think they're, they're an interesting audience here. Maybe

they haven't ever been climb, or they haven't grown up doing it.

What do you suggest is the like, alright, first step, is this?

Yeah, get your toes wet.

Yeah, exactly.

Start with the Rec Center. There's a bouldering

wall at the record center, and there is a climbing wall, at the

HPER, you know, go there, get a little bit of instruction from

them and get a sense of what it's like. It's not going to

speak to everyone. But those that it does speak to, they seem

to be very passionate about it.

Yeah.

So you know, that's a good place to start.

Then when you you know, if you feel that that itch, then it's

time to start looking at local gyms. Currently, there's about

three local gyms that you can start looking at and dabbling

into climbing. And then there's a plethora of, of resources out

there to kind of look for areas to climb. The big disconnect

right now is that mentor to mentorship. So when I started

climbing, there was probably for one really seasoned climber,

there were 10 other climbers that wanted to get that

mentorship. And it was an easy conversion, it wasn't so hard to

find those people. Today, it's like one in 150 and 200, who

knows, there's not a ton of old turds like me running around

that are, you know, excited about instruction. So it's,

it's, there is kind of this disconnect right now. But there

are a lot of organizations out there that you can get good

information from NOLS is where I went National Outdoor Leadership

School, they're based out of Lander, Wyoming, American Alpine

Club, another great organization, the access fund,

these are that's a conservation. They, they preserve for debt

climbing for, for climbers getting involved in and then

locally, there's a great organization called the Arkansas

climbers coalition,

Okay.

And this is made up of climbers, it's all

volunteer, they do. They go out and they work on trying to make

sure things are safe for climbers, they rebolt old

equipment that's, that's out there, and they try to update

it. And so there's a lot of education involved in that. They

put on a huge thing every spring, Arkansas Climbers

Festival, and that's another incredible resources for people

to learn how to do it.

Interesting. Well, I get this question comes

to mind. You know, I mean, of course, I've known climbing

existed. And like I said, I haven't really haven't really

done it. But the movie free solo or the documentary free solo

came out. Right. And that's been a few years ago. I assume that

is that a wonder if it's a blessing or a curse to climbing?

It's a blessing in a lot of ways. Yeah. Now, I will

tell you I know Alex,

Okay.

I've met him before and we've actually

climbed together. He is a very calculated, smart individual.

They make him out as this kind of quirky dude, he's not

Okay.

He's, he's, he very much knows what he's doing

when he does it. And, you know, it was an incredible feat what

he did, and before him, Kevin Jorgensen and Tommy Caldwell

doing the Dawn Wall, there was a seven year endeavor for them to

do that, that route. And those things kind of perpetuate

climbing to the front line. Whereas it's always been on the

fringe. But, you know, that kind of climbing is, is on the upper

upper upper upper end.

And, you know, so it's not the everyday

Yeah.

experience. You know, the everyday experience is, you and

me going out and I lead up and set up the ropes and you go up

and you're comfortably there. And if you fall you just stop

and nothing happens. You give it a second, then you get your

hands back on and keep keep climbing. And the equipment that

we use is incredibly redundant. It's like the the amount of

force it takes to break the equipment is about 10 times what

the body could withstand.

Okay.

So it's not going to give, it's only human error.

And that goes back to the education piece. Where you find

that mentor? What how do you get educated to do this? So, yeah

Well, I know that I knew that I had to at

least have create a increased interest. Uh, you know, over

time

It did. The accident numbers haven't

changed. You know, the, the amount of people coming to the

sport has not, like ticked up dramatically, it already is

going 10 fold every year. Well, 10%, over year over year, okay,

for the last decade. You know, I think it did spark that, like

that adventurous side and climbers. Yeah, and get them

kind of excited about what's new. And what's exciting in

climbing.

Well, let's maybe talk about climbing and

how it relates to the economy. So, you know, I would say, when

I think about the connection between outdoor recreation, our

economy, I guess I think about it in a couple of ways, we'd

love to get your thoughts, and I'm sure you're thinking about

it. Even more in depth, but but one, these experiences add

quality of life, or, you know, and as, as people choose to

found businesses, and grow their businesses here, and or relocate

their businesses here, I think this is an important part of the

economic development story of our state. And then I believe

that anytime, you know, you see, you see an industry start to pop

up. Well, now there's economic development around that

industry, the different businesses to support it. So how

are you thinking about that?

Well, I think as a business owner, and I look at,

like places that I would want to be and the places that I've

been, you know, we really have a good here. I mean, we, we really

have an amazing community. And then on top of that, all of a

sudden, we actually have better recreation than most places in

the country. And people are just not realizing it. Now, we as

native Arkansans, probably you already knew this, right? I

mean, I did. But I just knew that it had not been tapped into

like it is today. And so that narrative of you mean, you wear

shoes, or, you know, what's going on in Arkansas? Where is

that exactly That narrative is shifting. And so, you know, when

I look at living spaces for a business, if I think about what

is it that's really going to attract people to my business,

it's what we do in our, in our time, what we choose to do is

the most important time of our lives, we choose to go to work.

But we have to, we choose to drive a car, but we have to, we

choose to ride a bike, because we want to

Yeah,

We choose the fish, because that's our, that's

what really pushes us, we choose to climb because that is what

really gets us excited to live. And when you have a place that

gives you so many options like we have here, it's a no brainer.

I mean, if I want to recruit good quality staff, if I'm

looking to really perpetuate a good quality company, I know

that inevitably, it comes down to how happy those people really

are. And if they are live in a space, that gives them the

opportunity to have happiness, you're gonna hit a homerun, you

know.

Yeah, I mean, it's a key part of the value

proposition of living in this state. And I think why people

are seeing this state as a place that they want to move to, and

that clearly has been the case, it was the case pre pandemic,

but that certainly accelerated to some degree and it's, as you

know, still growing

You I'm a great example of it. I was an Arkansan

that was just like, you know, I got what I got, but I'm gonna go

really see the big world. And I went and did it. And I lived in

some most some of the most iconic places in the country

lives in Santa Cruz, California and jet and Jackson Hole,

Wyoming, and Portland, Oregon. You know, these places are

amazing in their own right. But every place I went, I was like,

yeah, it's not as good as just like, it's cool. You know, it's

amazing in its own way, but it's like when you try to put the

whole package together when I think about when I thought about

raising a family. I immediately thought about coming back here

is just the this how much we have here. It's all there, it's

just not really seen as much as those other places. And it kind

of goes back to what we have, you know, as far as like the

terrain and things like that it can be the capital of the world

in a lot of ways. But it can also be the best place to grow.

And to have growth as an individual, in a lot of ways,

too.

Yeah, it's just a wonderful place to grow a

business. And, you know, as you think about what opportunities

you see around climbing, coming, you know, over the next, and I

don't know how far you're thinking out three 5, 10 years,

you know, but how do you see that economy specifically around

climbing, needing to develop maybe is the right question?

Yeah, well, I think that as businesses

continue to develop, you know, and as employees age over time,

you know, you're not going to always be able to push yourself

to the hardest levels, especially into my age. You

know, it's more the accessibility of those things.

And, you know, when you start looking at, I can see me climb

till I'm 90, it just as long as I don't fall off my bike.

Not fall off the side of a mountain, I see.

You know, I can see that here. Yeah, it's not,

it's not out of the realm. And so that accessibility here is

just like, I mean, I got climbing 10 minutes outdoors,

ten minutes from my house. And there's not a lot of places in

the country, you can do that.

You know, when I, when I talked with Gary, that

was a key learning about the cycling strategy, in in our

state was having it in about accessibility, but proximity to

where people live. And so you see that same thing in climbing?

Well, Gary's a really smart dude. And, you

know, it really he keyed me into this very early on is like,

realizing how important that is, that is really turning

development of climbing on its head. Because what it's always

been is go out and do your hard project, like the Dawn Wall,

and, you know, or we're, you know, you go to that project,

and you do it well, what we're doing here is we're we're taking

the cues from the cycling and saying, no, we're going to

develop the local areas first. And then you, then you get

interested in your projects. And so we're really turning it

upside down in the climbing community. And it's really, you

know, when, when, when Gary and all those guys started working

on this, people were like, this isn't gonna work. This is, this

is crazy. Now they're coming here going, how did you do this?

We want to do it. You know, and I, I foresee, this being the

conduit for shockwaves, across the climate community across the

country, the way we're approaching this, this overall

strategy for the state. You know, it's just really different

the way it's ever been approached.

And do you see, you know, for the different

areas of focus in Northwest Arkansas, and Arkansas, more

broadly, around cycling, and climbing and paddling? I assume

you're seeing synergies across those different ones,

particularly from a tourism standpoint?

That's right. And I think the big takeaway there

is, the big takeaway for me is, take the assets that you have

and look at those things and how can you maximize them here in

Arkansas, and draw from that? If you've got a rock outcropping

close to your downtown center, focus on that, if you've got a

river or stream, focus on that, if you've got these amazing

deltas, focus on that, but really look at the natural

resources and figure out how to promote those things. Because

right now, you go down in areas and those are kind of in the

ditches. But the reality is, that's the gold for these

communities. That's where they can really revitalize these

these rural areas that are they're losing every day.

But that is a natural asset that really can be

leveraged in a strong way. I agree with you.

That is your gold. To me, it's like that's exactly

what we're doing with the cycling. We are taking the

terrain and turning it into gold. I mean, Bella Vista is a

great example. I mean, that terrain has been sitting there

for eons and no one knew what to do with it. And all they had to

do was say yes, and now they got 80 miles a trail that is

phenomenal.

Phenomenal trails. That's exactly right.

Well, as you sort of look back at your journey, I'm interested

in some of your learnings, and particularly maybe, you know,

you were a U of A student that at one time, so if you were, if

you were looking back and you know, getting one to pursue this

passion of climbing, and I know, you know, you spent many years

working in the automotive industry and your family's

business that was very customer service focused, just you know,

you're kind of talking to that student what's, what's some key

learnings and advice?

I think, you know, doing the work, you know, being

willing to put the time in, but the only way to do that, and

this may sound cliche, but follow your passion, whatever

that is. My dad loved drag racing when he was 10 years old.

His dad was a mechanic. And so what did he do? He followed his

passion, became one of the most prominent car dealers in

Northwest Arkansas. He was the dealer of the year last year for

Subaru, you know, after almost five decades, in that business,

follow your passion. You know, and this is, it's hard to

separate that when you are struggling to make ends meet,

paying off those loans doing what you do, and you commit

yourself to something. But at the end of the day, if you

follow that passion, you're going to spend that extra mot

minute you're going to, you're going to wake up in the middle,

like that's the answer. That's it. Because it's in you. It's

no, it's not external to you.

Yeah, yeah. I love that notion of something

you said about one being present and working hard, I continue to

hear that, you know, in just about everybody I talked to,

like, just do great at what you're doing. Love it, you know,

and pursue what you really enjoy. And there's a lot of

passion, a lot, a lot of joy in that.

The only other thing I'd say there is there's

no job underneath anyone. And the reason I say that is because

I mean, at one point, I was picking food out of dumpsters to

make ends meet to go climb. That was my passion. And sometimes

you just have to pick up the mop and mop the floor no matter what

happens, because that's what has to happen. And I think that

there's a disconnect there with a lot of people, it's like, oh,

if I can't do that job, I'm not going to do a job, then that's

just not the way success works.

You know, I think I think that's a great

characteristic of many of the great leaders that we know, that

have always been willing to do to do any job, you know, and

whatever it takes to get that job done.

Well my dad when I was a kid, he told me this, he

probably didn't remember saying this. He's like, son, you can

run a business, taking care of the coffeemaker. You know, you,

you do the work, you put the time in, and you will figure out

how to make things work.

Well, Dennis, thank you for what you're doing

in our region and in our state to advance outdoor recreation

and the economy around it. Thanks for being willing to come

back and spend some time with us today.

Awesome. Yeah. It's great to be back at the

university.

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much.

Thank you.

On behalf of the Walton College thank you for

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