Not sure how to experience unity in Christ when there is so much division? Watch this pivot podcast interview and learn how to experience unity in the church even when it feels impossible.

Experiencing deep disagreements, differences, or divides in your church? There are ancient spiritual practices church leaders and pastors can engage in to help their churches experience more unity in Christ today. In John 17, Jesus prays for unity; unity in the church matters to God. Watch this Pivot podcast interview to learn how to focus on following Jesus together in the midst of differences and division in your church.

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Jon Anderson: I think we need to challenge the idea: there's a rural urban divide. I think we actually have much more in common than we want to talk about. There are rural and urban differences. There are rural, urban and suburban differences. But differences are not always bad. In fact, sometimes they're helpful. We can learn things from our neighbors. And I want to lift up the notion that actually, in this overheated political environment, that we actually are much more interdependent between rural and urban people than than we often notice or pay attention to. And that's true inside the body of Christ, too. Sometimes there are tensions between the urban church, suburban church and rural church, and we see the world in different ways sometimes, but most of the time we share a deeper source of unity. And of course, that would be the unity we share in Christ Jesus.

Dwight Zscheile: One of the social and cultural realities so many of us are struggling with right now is divisiveness, especially in this election year. Sadly, the church isn't excluded from this, but so often seems to reflect the wider culture. But you know, in John 17, Jesus prays for the unity of his believers, and this is a really important topic for us to discuss. In today's episode, we're going to talk about what it looks like to be the church today, leading the way for unity to take place where it seems nearly impossible, and how your church can do that. Hello everyone, I'm Dwight Zscheile.

Terri Elton: And I'm Terri Elton.

Dwight Zscheile: Welcome to the Pivot podcast. If you're new here, this is the podcast where we talk about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. We're excited to have with us today. Former Bishop John Anderson from the ELCA, and Pastor David Anglada, who's senior director for Leadership in Congregations and Community Leadership in the ELCA. John and David. Welcome to the Pivot podcast.

David Anglada: Thank you. Good to be here.

Terri Elton: Now I love this. This is my denomination. I'm ELCA, but this is a unique conversation that we're going to get to have today because both of you come from very different contexts and have different experiences. So, David, I want to start with you. You've worked in some diverse urban settings in New York. You've worked in Florida doing ministry, and now you have this role at the church wide office that works with congregations across the ELCA. Would just like to you to share a little bit about your own leadership experience and ministry and what you're witnessing in congregations today as we struggle with this time of divisiveness and how how congregations are kind of working, working at diversity and unity and coming together.

David Anglada: Uh, thank thank you, uh, and thank you for the invitation. Uh, let me start with my with my Lutheran journey. Uh, some 33 years ago, I was not born and raised in the Lutheran church. I came from a evangelical apostolic faith Pentecostal home. And. But the Lord had mercy on me and brought me to the Lutheran church. So. But but my journey started at Trinity Lutheran Church in Brooklyn, New York. It was a old Norwegian congregation that opened the doors for Latinos. When other Lutheran bodies and groups in South Brooklyn did not want to open their doors for Latinos some 5 years ago, when the first, uh, migrants from Puerto Rico and other countries arrived to South Brooklyn. We're talking about the 1950s, 1949, and uh, uh, Trinity opened the doors for, for Latinos. And here was this Norwegian congregation that felt a calling of God to open the doors for, uh, Latinx Latinos, uh, in, in the community. As the years went by. Uh, they started this ministry. And then comes Bob Nervig. And who sees this dream about it should not just be a little downstairs meeting. It should be part of the life of the church. So I come in from a Lutheran church. My church was always involved in unity about bringing diversity. And as you know, uh, Latinos, we we are from over 20 plus countries, right. And and different ethnic, different cultures. Uh, some speak Spanish, some with some different dialects, but yet we're we're Latinx, we're Latino, and and this church opened the doors. So I come from that tradition, um, as I see the years, uh, as the years went by and I, I become a minister of Word and Sacrament, and I served in various capacities throughout the ELCA. My eyes opened to how some churches were open and some were not. But what's exciting is that in my last parish, uh, at Grace Lutheran Church in Malvern, New York, a predominantly, uh, European descent community, uh, this church calls this Puerto Rican from from born and raised in Harlem, the USA, in Manhattan and still live now in East Harlem. Um, calls Puerto Rican to be their pastor and also to to serve as the administrator of their school. And here's what what I learned that in the midst of the divisiveness, there is room for unity, right? And is it easy? Absolutely not. God knows. Um, what is interesting is that the church that I was serving in Malvern, New York, um, Malvern, seems to be a very conservative community. Uh, in my congregation and school, we had people on the left and people on the right and some in the center. The question is, is that possible? Can you have diversity both politically, socially, ethnically? Can is that possible? I think it is. It, but it takes work. It takes about breaking bread. And for me, the unity has, begins with breaking bread. It's about you're inviting me over for a cup of coffee. It's about us sharing stories. Let me go back again to Trinity in Sunset Park, Brooklyn. My mentor Bob Nervig . This tall Norwegian guy, huge guy. He used to say, um, the way we, we break down the walls is going to each other's countries. And one of the first things we did is we took the Norwegians to Puerto Rico, right? And that they in Puerto Rico, they saw doctors, they saw lawyers, uh, they saw universities, and they say, wow, you know, we're like very similar. Uh, we have this. And we started sharing stories. We started breaking bread together, both congregations. So for me, I learned that it's it's about sitting together, breaking bread, sharing thoughts, sharing ideas again. Now let me go back again. So to Grace Lutheran Church in school, how is it possible that a church that was built by Germans and and by the way, the land where Malvern or Grace Lutheran Church in Malvern, where it's sitting right now. The property once was owned by one of the leaders of the KKK. He must be turning in his grave because Grace Lutheran Church today is a multicultural community. Latinx, African American, European descent. Um. Uh. In addition to that, you have afro-caribbeans, right? You have Jamaicans. You have you have Haitians. And and we have Asians and South Asians. How is it possible? The breaking of bread. And one of the things that Bob Nervig taught me was this. In. In the essentials. Unity in the essentials. For him, it was Jesus is Lord. Jesus is Lord, right? And once in a while he would say, oh yeah, the Book of Concord. But that's another story anyway. But and then he was saying, but in the non-essentials: liberty. And I think that kind of worked for us. It kind of worked for us. So that's some of my experiences in the sense of unity.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Bishop John, you were a you're from a rural context, and you spent 18 years serving the Southwestern Minnesota Synod in the Lutheran Church. Um, talk a little bit about your experience. And I know that rural context in particular right now, many of them are really wrestling with, um, how to be unified amidst some of the cultural and social tensions taking place.

Jon Anderson: Yeah. Thanks for having me be a part of this conversation. I grew up on a dairy farm, uh, in rural Minnesota, and I attended an open country little congregation. In that context, diversity looked like Roman Catholic Germans and Norwegian Lutherans disagreeing about things. I was blessed when I went to seminary and college to experience people from a lot of different places. My opening call was in Houston, Texas, where suddenly I entered into a world that was really different and I was blessed to have neighbors from, um, India practicing Hindus and, and from, uh, Asia practicing Buddhists and then Christians of a variety of traditions. And, um, I began to experience greater diversity from God swinging, back to Minnesota. Um, I served in Saint Cloud and in, um, New Ulm, Minnesota, when I was surprised to be elected bishop, the Southwestern Minnesota Synod would be, just divide Minnesota into four parts and take the southwest corner, and you'd have a good sense of it. But rural Minnesota has been growing significantly more and more diverse over the course of the 18 years I served as bishop, we have received the gifts of amazing people who have come from Eastern Africa, Western Africa, uh, from Asia, from also from Eastern Europe. And so we have county seat towns spread through that rural synod that actually have people coming, uh, and working in primarily the meatpacking plants, which then has blessed those communities with diversity and also the challenges that come in a more diverse population. But, uh, part of what we saw in terms of unity and diversity is that our congregations that lived in those in those communities that were experiencing the gift of many new neighbors from around the world, they developed amazing gifts and did great work. Sometimes our congregations and people that had a harder time were 30 to 40 miles out, and they didn't have the gift of getting to know, uh, people from Somalia who are practicing Muslims, or they didn't have the gift of getting to know people like David was talking about who came here from Mexico or Honduras or other places in Latin and South America. So those folks had a bigger or a different journey because they were watching diversity. And the people who are living in these county seat towns, they actually were experiencing diversity. And I want to just name that the area that we were in is, uh, land that was the original homeland of Dakota people. And so we had Dakota communities also in our midst that we were also trying to figure out how to relate better to. But this thing about, uh, um, unity and diversity, the political issues. Uh, I, I'm starting to make this argument, so I'll make it here. I think we need to challenge the idea there's a rural urban divide. I think we actually have much more in common than we want to talk about. There are rural and urban differences. There are rural, urban and suburban differences. But differences are not always bad. In fact, sometimes they're helpful. We can learn things from our neighbors. And I want to lift up the notion that actually, in this overheated political environment, that we actually, uh, are much more interdependent between rural and urban people than than we often notice or pay attention to. And that's true inside the body of Christ, too. Sometimes there are tensions between the urban church, suburban church and rural church, and we see the world in different ways sometimes, but most of the time we share a deeper source of unity. And of course, that would be the unity we share in Christ Jesus.

Terri Elton: Thank you. John. It's interesting to me that both of you really highlight, uh, diversity has been growing around us for a long time. This is not a new thing. And there's been difference of ideas and political understandings and cultural and social understandings . So what I'd like to, for each of you to just share a little bit of what do you think is particular? What are the particular challenges that communities of faith are challenging today within this longer arc, right? Of of us trying to be church in some different times?

Jon Anderson: Well, I think, uh, whether we're talking about church back in time or we're talking about being church in our time, we've always been a church full of beautiful, broken and deeply loved people. And that, uh, what we share in common is actually God's deep love for us and then that, then our Christian identity. But we're but we you know, I think that, um, part of what I saw in my ministry as a parish pastor and also in my ministry as a, as I served in the office of bishop. And I see now, as I instruct students here at the seminary, is that, um, sin causes damage, personally personal sin causes damage. Communal and systemic sin causes damage or damage. Excuse me. And I've I think that part of what is powerful as we're dealing with diversity is, is to actually see people practice forgiveness and love that overcomes these differences. And I've seen inside the congregations lives that when they would be having serious struggles with each other or trying to figure out how to engage the future God was calling them towards, I've seen, uh, people practice repentance. Uh, that's actually quite powerful as they turn around and look at things differently. And then I've seen a deep trust that God will somehow work to lead them forward and help them to be the, uh, be able to proclaim a trustworthy gospel and be a trustworthy community of faith that's actually, uh, speaking forward. Now, I could tell you hard stories of horrid conflicts and difficult divisions that has happened, that have happened in congregations. I can see them in my imagination. I also can tell you I could tell you stories of congregations where God called leaders. They heard God's call. They turned around and they engaged the challenges of the current church that and culture we're in, uh, remembered their history but didn't worship it and then engaged the mission field, that is. And God would call them, uh, to serve in significant ways, reaching out to their new neighbors who might be coming from southern US and be white people, but also could be coming from all around the world. And, uh, and they're called to love their neighbors. All we're called to love all our neighbors. That's hard for us to remember, but that's also an amazing gift that God inspires.

David Anglada: I want to echo some of the what Bishop Anderson has said that. It's brokenness, right? It's the brokenness of the world. And we live in a broken world. And and it's it's it's part of our dilemma. We live in a broken world. But the question is how we navigate that brokenness. And so one of the things that I have learned in the past years is. Uh, as a Latinx man. And I get to the point that I can trust others that have had privilege and power and authority. And can those who've had privilege and power and authority change their ways to meet at the crossroads? And so the best illustration I have, I think, and you're the professor. So I think it comes from the book of the revelation, Revelation r apocalypse, where the lamb and the lion are sitting together. I wonder if the lion can become a vegetarian and not eat the sheep. And the sheep then begin not to try to run away from the lion and meet and maybe at the table and, and and maybe that, I think, is for me the dream that that that idea of the future where, uh, where we come together, where the lion and the sheep come together, um, and to celebrate life. And I think that that is possible. If we come to a understanding and recognize that we live in brokenness. And that's the, uh, my experience. And I think it's happening. I think it's happening in our church where we're now saying, hey, you know what? You know, we've we've come to an understanding that we need to help each other and that we need that we're all in the same in the same pool that we we need to, uh, instead of fighting each other, come together and and become one. Uh, and I think that is possible, but but what does it take to get there? Um, so my best story is this, um, uh, I didn't know much about 12 step programs, so I became an overeater many years ago, and I blew up to almost 190 pounds. And, uh, the doctor said to me, look, if if you want to live, you know, you're kind of vertically challenged, in other words. So if you're a little, you're too heavy for your, for, for your height. And, and so, uh, she said you need to change. You need to change. If you don't change, you will die, uh, much earlier than your days here on Earth. And and so she suggested get into a 12 step program for overeaters. And one of the rules is, uh, come to an understanding that I need help. And I think that if we get there first, that we come to an understanding that we need help in this brokenness to work together, that we're in it together. I think that's the first step. I have to come to an understanding that as a Latinx man, I can't do it by myself. That I need my European descent colleagues. I need my African descent colleagues. I need my South Asian and my Asian brothers and sisters to come together. And that all together. Uh, we can then begin to look at systemic problems that we live in our world.

Dwight Zscheile: So let's explore together a bit more. Yeah. How congregations and particularly congregational leaders can find unity amidst the forces in our culture and our society, that're really tearing people apart. Where so often, um, political identity is, uh, paramount in defining people's sense of self and belonging and all of those things, affiliation, um, and, uh, and, and there's a great business model in being a conflict entrepreneur right now. Right? So we have so many formative influences of algorithms and so many things that are really designed to put fuel on the fire of tearing us apart. Um, if you're giving advice to congregational leaders, particularly in this election season. Right, um, as to how to navigate this and bring people together, um, drawing on what you've said so far around, um, some of the basic principles of Christianity, sin and forgiveness and all of those things, um, what would you say? And maybe let's go. Go with you, Jon. What would you say?

Jon Anderson: Well, uh, I remember, uh, in my, uh, the first churches are is usually our home right? So my mom and dad saw the world politically different. So I know it's actually possible for people to love each other and live with each other that are politically different. Um, so I'd want to start there, but I think where you focus matters. We used to have these old cameras that you had to turn the focus ring in order to get a focus. So where congregations and individuals focus really matters, so you can focus on disappointment. And we've been having a lot of people focus on disappointment. And I actually think we need to um, one of my favorite quotes is by a teacher from a long time ago named Kennan Callahan who said, uh, memory is strong, but hope is stronger. So I think we would be served well to focus on our hopes instead of our disappointments and our differences like I talked about earlier. And, uh, in, in rural Minnesota, I don't know how it is, David, where you are, but in rural Minnesota, we're very fond of history and tradition and history and tradition is good, as long as you don't turn it into a nostalgic thing. That basically is remembering a world that never, never existed. Right? So I think, uh, kind of focusing on what we can learn from our history is helpful, but then looking at our assets and thinking about how to engage the challenges of today matters. Now, I think we also need to, as Christian leaders, keep focused on Jesus together and focus that on the good news that God is with us and God is for us. I'm a fan of, uh, attending to the sources, reading scripture, and also I'm a fan of and and the and actually as part of our Lutheran movement, we have something called the catechisms that we, that lift up key parts of the Christian tradition and help us think about what does this mean in our world. But I also am a big fan of practicing the faith and teaching people basic Christian practices like prayer, and inviting and being generous and studying and serving and encouraging and worshiping about lifting up our key values. So I think what we matter, what matters, is where we focus. And what I saw as a bishop, where when I go to work with highly conflicted congregations, I'd often end up saying somewhere in the meeting, how can we return our focus to the mission of Jesus in this congregation? Because that's why it was created. That's why it exists. And and in the current tensions and differences, we're losing sight of that. So how do we how do we pull back to that? And when congregations did attend to their mission, that was both inside their community of faith, but also all around them. When congregations paid attention to their mission, they became more resilient. They became more likely to come out of their difficult season. And the tension that's part of life. We don't agree, we don't see things the same, also became more manageable. So I think this focusing on the mission of Jesus and our identity as Christ followers, who God calls to grow more Christ followers. We often forget that part, but we're called to actually, uh, be apprentices of Jesus who create other apprentices. I think that that's at least one thing I'd want to say to answer your question, Dwight. Of course, it's more complex than we have time to talk about in in our half hour.

David Anglada: I want to go back to another story. Um, when I was over at Trinity. One of the things that we did to bring the unity in a diverse community in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, was we had a an engaging young people's ministry. And one of the things that we taught, we took kids to France to to say prayers. Right. So picture this African American, African American descent kids, Latinx, European descent kids, Asian kids to go to pray in Taize . That's what it was, sort of breaking down the walls right, there together prayer. So my point is, I think we need to get back to some basic things. Prayer does work. Prayer changes lives. So in my world, prayer is is essential. And we also began to teach kids about Taize prayers for being together in today. And here's this case with hip hop music. Yet you see them, you know, singing songs, Taize songs. But I want to go back to the question. Um. Today one of the things that I have tried to do and in the last couple of years, is utilizing a servant leadership model in the life of the church. If we can move the church into servant leadership. Why? Because those theories of servant leadership, of healing, we begin healing one with another. The idea of humility, of servanthood, that's what the church does. Yes. People are going to have political ideas and people are going to have their preferences left or right or center. But if we bring people to the center that it's about Jesus and the ministry of Jesus, of healing, of listening, of compassion, of caring, I think it makes a difference in the life of the church. And look, I'm not preaching a utopia here. This is this takes energy and it takes, it takes dedication from lay leaders and and pastors and roster leaders to do this. This is not easy work. But it can be done.

Terri Elton: Thank thanks for that, David. I was thinking recently in, I serve a little congregation on the side, and I was preaching and asking some hard questions. It was right after primaries were happening and the text was Love God and love your neighbor. And one of the questions I asked was, I struggle, right? You know, the Jesus was being tested by the religious leaders. What are the of all the things? What are we to do? Right? And Jesus said, Love God and love your neighbor. And to your point, David, that wasn't a pie in the sky. It was a it was a nitty gritty every day. What does this mean? Right. And it and one of the things I got into a conversation with somebody afterwards because I, it was politics in the sense that it was about power and privilege and what society does, but it wasn't political in the sense of a party. Right. And I think my conversation with a gentleman afterwards was, I think so many of us have gone to where we're expecting the Savior to be the politics or to be an institution, rather than to do the simple relational servant leadership that you're talking about. Right? This ability to listen to stories, to be across difference, to see everybody as a creator, as a creation of God, right. In all of that. Um, here's one question that I, I want to say. And and, David, let's start with you. Um, you you've told me stories offline about some of your hard work that's come into so you when you say, this is hard work, I know a little bit about what's behind that. What would you say to leaders about just staying the course and trying to just hear stories break bread, you know, focus on Jesus. But what would you say to the leader who's just trying to do that day in and day out in this hard time? And then, John, you get to go next.

David Anglada: Um, I have learned to, to and also as part of my life and have taught others. Um, we don't have all the answers. I'm not I'm not the Messiah. I would like to be the Messiah once in a while, but I'm not. I'm not the Messiah. Uh, what I have learned to to share with leaders is, um, A, um, bring others on board. I think collaborative ministries do work, um, that we're not silos to ourselves. Uh, and we have to learn to trust in the laity. That, yes, we are theologically informed and we know theology and church history and all that. And philosophy and all the great stuff that we learned, but that there lay leaders that are leaders and that we have to trust their judgment. And as we begin, as we do church and and and work with others, that's one of the advices that I have taught, um, to to teach leaders. Uh, and, and second, um, rely on the Holy Spirit. You know, we have to trust the spirit. You know, we it's it's not by might or by strength, but by my spirit. Um, and then we have to embrace the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Jon Anderson: Well, if what I'd add to what David has shared is, um. I think to just be curious is an important gift as we try to find our way forward. Uh, in the course that I taught this winter term, which is called Loving Your Neighbor in Rural Settings, we talked about all the different kinds of diversity that exists in a small town, more than just ethnic or racial identities, but all kinds of other, uh, things are there so that when we take a stance of I'm curious and I'm not an expert, like David said, all kinds of good things can happen. But when you're trying to when you're trying to actually become more effective at loving your neighbor, uh, listening to them to begin with is good. And then we often talk about the virtue or the value of little experiments to just see or to touch base with somebody and explore, and then actually sharing what you learn with each other. Uh, but I.

Jon Anderson: I. I think this, uh. So often when we're trying to in to become more comfortable at diversity, I'm always tempted to think I have to be an expert or I have to do it right instead of being a human, being curious, loving my neighbor. Learning a little bit about their story. Maybe I begin by sharing some of my story, which might be surprising to people. And then I invite people to share their story. And all of a sudden, uh, in our holy storytelling, rural people are fundamentally oral folks. I think blue collar folks do this as well, uh, a lot. But in that storytelling, uh, all kinds of things that are, uh, you couldn't put in a whole chapter of a book, actually come to your awareness and you reflect on it later, and it helps you increase the odds of being just a little more comfortable, a little more competent, a little bit better at working to bridge some of these things that David named where as a person who's a big white man, uh, who lives in a community that's more and more diverse, I might miss if I'm not being attentive and listening and paying attention to what my presence means in the community of people I'm relating to. So that's one thing. Curiosity is a good virtue to hold on to. And, um, and I think that's the Holy Spirit that makes you curious, actually.

Dwight Zscheile: So David and John, um, you have invited us back to claiming core stories and practices of what it means to be followers of Jesus and followers of Jesus in community. I think one of the reasons why churches are struggling so much with these powerful cultural social forces, um, is that sometimes they need to rediscover that identity and deepen that identity, that theological and spiritual identity in Christ, and in some ways, the simplicity of going back to those basics, things like prayer and storytelling and discernment and practicing forgiveness and leaning into our, our deeper traditions, um, there's a lot of hope there. So thank you both for the wisdom that you've shared in in this time together. It's great having you on the show.

Terri Elton: I want to say thank you too. And one of the things I'm taking away from this is it's so easy to get fixated on our time is unique and special. And, David, your story about this Norwegian church welcoming you and a bunch of Puerto Ricans and other Latina and Latinx people into that, and how that changed the community is the boldness, I think, that we as church leaders can be; we can see people and welcome stories and break bread together and do these practices. And over time, the spirit changes us. So thank you for that reminder and thanks to our listeners for joining us today. We hope that these stories are inspiring and encouraging you in this season, where it's easy to get fixated on our differences and to see the spirit at work among us. We'd love for you to join us again next week, when we continue to dive into how the church can faithfully navigate this changing world that we live in. This is Terri Elton and Dwight Zscheile signing off for another episode of The Pivot podcast. We'll see you next week.