This episode contains topics that may be difficult to hear or that can be triggering to some listeners. Please take care of yourself and pause or stop if needed. This episode also has explicit language. 

Our guest K.D. Hearst, host of “Don’t F* up the Crime Scene”, joins us to discuss a case he worked on years ago in the state of Georgia involving sexual assault on a dog by two young kids. Authorities were called to the scene for a “dog bite” complaint and they did not expect to find what they did. Spoiler: everyone is fine.

This case addresses sexual abuse, dog bites, and dangerous dogs. Dog bite level definitions are explained using the Ian Dunbar scale. Sexual assault to animals is a difficult topic to discuss, but one that is important to understand and acknowledge as it goes beyond the cruelty to the dog. These perpetrators can be dangerous to the community, especially to other innocent victims such as children, and current laws may not properly address this crime.

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Animal Sexual Assault and Dog Bites with guest KD Hearst

KD Hearst: What's up?

How you doing, doc?

DrG: I'm doing great. How are you doing? Trying to not freeze to death

here.

KD Hearst: I'm always good. I'm always good. Never had a bad day since my divorce. I'm awesome.

DrG: Fantastic. For those who don't know who you are, how about you give them a little bit of a blip of what you do and

why you do what you do.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God, I'm old. Um, So, you know, I was raised in the game as an ACO, ACI, Animal Cruelty Investigator. Then I became a supervisor, and I was on a special unit, and I was inducted into the Animal Cruelty Task Force. Uh, first one on the East Coast, and we locked up a lot of people. We were very, very good in DeKalb County.

Uh, shout outs to all the peeps I worked with and, um, you know, my, my coworkers and what have you and everything. I wouldn't be nothing without my coworkers and my team. And after that, I became an adjunct professor, AKA instructor for a law enforcement training Institute. I have my break now, my podcast,Don't Fuck up the Crime Scene, uh, you can reach that everywhere.

And um, three times a year or maybe twice a year in service training because you have to see views in and um, that's it.

DrG: ANd uh, if people want to find out about your podcast and what you do, where can they find that

information?

KD Hearst: You can always go to my, uh, website is kdhearst, h e a r s t dot com, where you can find everything encompassed.

Uh, you can find out, uh, big time speakers, all the lists. I got 22, 23 classes, uh, me and Dustin teach. We go across the nation, southeast. Primarily from across the nation and we don't mind doing conference and stuff like that. And then, uh, if you want to go to the podcast, you just look up, don't fuck up crime scene, uh, acronym and just look at Spotify.

DrG: Hey, you're a star too man. I appreciate you too.

So this is this is a warning for everybody that's listening because we are going to be talking about a sexual assault case. So trigger warning, anybody that doesn't want to listen, just hit stop right now. This is your your first and only warning. So I invited you to come over here because I wanted to discuss a case involving animals with sexual assault, and you had a case several years ago, so how about you give us the rundown on that case?

So by case went down when two individuals that was under age, I think, uh, 12 and 13. And they got into, you know, how boys are boys, it's two boys, they were, um, out with their mother because it was her weekend to mind the kids, uh, because the family was split in half. So the father allowed them to go over to the mother's house and she had a, um, AKA American Pit Bull Terrier type mix dog, brown male dog.

And, um, you know, kids are kids. They got into, uh, mommy's little toys. Pun intended. And, uh, they said, you know, it would be fun to do some sexual things to the dog. And, um, it didn't work out well for one of them. I think the 12 year old, once, uh, allegedly, uh, we proved a few things, we can prove everything.

And, um, they used at least about four or five of them on the dog and to the dog, I guess, um, tolerance was low and turned around and bit him in defense, uh, because the dog was assaulted. And bit one of the kids in stomach level three bites, nothing severe, but level three bites. So it was like a, um, a gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, uh, leave me alone.

I've never seen that before, but this is before I arrived. So then, uh, supervisor calls animal control and one of my junior officers showed up and she went inside there and she never seen anything like that before. So she was like shook. So you had, um, first officer seen first arrived. Uh, you had sergeant and you have my officer kind of like, um, shook, didn't know what to do.

And it was like, what in hell? They didn't know. They didn't know how to Go for it. Uh, analyzing what they think or what they know, what they can prove. They had no idea. So the dog was in a shock and the kids will be a bleeding out of the stomach. So EMS shows up and everything treats the kids would have you and the mothers out there would have you.

So she kind of sort of said, Okay, what's going on? And what is that humming that that humming? I kept I kept hearing a hum, right? So I'm like, Oh, okay, what's up? So then I go over here and go through that house. Okay, where's the dog? It says in the corner in the room. I said, Yeah, you didn't quarantine it.

You didn't. Contain it, restrain it, and then put it on the truck. She's like, nah, the dog's kind of like, kind of nippy, a little, a little, a little fractious, a little scared. Um, and it's looking kind of like wide eyed, sclera showing, big whale eye showing. And I was like, um, oh my, okay, what's, what's going on with the dog?

They said, well, we think he was, um, assaulted, you know, um, um, by some sexual toys. And that was a hum. It had a vibrator still humming, a purple one, still humming on the bed. Right. So I was like, okay, that's a little different doc. Never walking to one that's, you know, active pun intended. So I was like, okay.

So I had the officer getting statements. for everybody. Uh, the victim didn't get a statement. The brother gave a statement, which he lied. The mother gave a statement, which she lied. And then the officers gave, uh, statements, right? So we had a whole bunch of paperwork going on. And then I'm up there filming everything and taking pictures, everything.

I think I forwarded you some of the pictures. So I'm like, clack, clack, clack, clack, clack, and I'm like, okay, okay, okay. So I'll say one thing, I, A, I need to, um, see what's wrong with the dog, okay, see if it's, um, you know, traumatized. It looked trauma.

I think I took it to my truck, put it on there and everything and, uh, was muzzle wrapped and everything. And I, um, cranked up the tail to see if there's any bruising, bleeding, any type of, um, oozing, anything. And at that time it wasn't okay. But it was gel. It was kind of like matted down. So I was like, okay.

So, uh, put the dog over there. And I talked to the owner. I said, Okay, what happened? She said, Well, I wasn't home. Problem. So you don't really know. He's going off what you thought or what your sons tell you. I said, Okay, can I speak to your kids? She says, Well, I'm not really sure right now. And you have to ask permission to speak to the minors.

I said, no. Was you playing with some object that you got from your mother that was on bed with those, with those, those apparatuses? He's like, well, no, he paused. So I knew there was a lie coming after that. Right. So at that time I was like, okay, I got enough. Okay. Whatever like that. So I said, well, I have a victim here and I have two assailants.

One who definitely did something and it was reaction. The other one is lying about its coverup, but they're minors. They're minors. And they can't really, they can't really tell each other in a court of law. It's kind of weird. Okay. Same thing when you have, um, I think a husband to wife or wife to husband.

Um, I think it was a crime of passion or something like that. It's kind of weird. They can't really tell each other. It's weird. Right. Unless she says domestic abuse. So this was doggy abuse or animal abuse. But nobody would say anything. So I was looking at the dog as the victim and is there any evidence?

Um, it's not yours right now. You can sign, you can come get it later on, but right now you can't get it. Right. So she was like, okay, because she's really interested in her toys. Okay. I was like, okay, it's a little different. And, um, I got all toys like that individually. I didn't put it as one individually.

So you have to label everything like that. and get a tag for each one of them. Did all that. And then, uh, told the officers, I think we're good. Okay. The kid, like I said, he was transported to the hospital, minor level three bites, they have punctures on them. They had a few. Okay. So it looked like it was a double bites like that.

Uh, I think it was the cab, went at Mercy Hospital and, uh, two, two of my favorite doctors are on duty. And I said, say, Hearst, what you got? I come in there and I said, Hey doc, I think it's sexually assaulted. And they both looked at each other with this, uh oh. So Um, I'm not gonna say their names. Um, they're really good.

I don't think they would mind, but I'm not gonna say their names. And I've been knowing one for at least 15 years and the other one for at least 5 years up until that point, and they're very knowledgeable vets, okay? And I think most vets are trained on what, 7 different types of anatomies, doc? 7 or 8 different types of anatomies?

Um, you know, and, um, you can sedate and When you keep the animal alive, it's better to sedate, all right? And after that you probe, you know, after that you see if it's a female or it's a male, so after that you have to probe them. And the big thing, what we was looking for was scarring, any type of tearing or ripping, and nothing because of the lube.

It was mounds of ooze, and you saw the video, okay? So it had a whole bunch of stuff that came out, plastic, all type of, you know, different type of hard feces, no, um, uh, liquid feces, no diarrhea, nothing like that. It was hard, right? But animals were tensed and what have you like that. So it was hard to get some of that stuff out.

I was like, okay, give it about a day and a half. I'm sorry, back up. The owner did sign off on the dog. So hey, you can keep them. All right, so it was good for us, because usually if the dog sexually abused, and it's not conditioned, if it's a dog that's conditioned and trained for these activities, 99.9 we're gonna euthanize, but this one here was a victim, was assaulted, and um, it's the chance of recovery.

I mean, great. And I say about two days, two days later, dog was acting like a normal dog. And, um, you know, I think it was adopted out, but you have to disclose that, um, give it to somebody just in case I doubt if the dog would ever do anything, um, because it hasn't been conditioned or trained for sexual activity.

Don't, don't, you know, try to, you know, molest the dog, but you have to dummy down sometime. Yeah. I said, do not put stuff up the dog's ass. You won't get bit, you know? And, uh, and it was looking at me like, yes, sir. Yes, sir. Okay, sir. Like that. I looked at the mother like this. You don't deserve kids. You fuck up.

All right. But I. Again, I'm very professional, doc. I'm, for the most part, very professional. But I was a little crude. I was like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Fuck out of here. And if you're going to have sex toys, lock those shits up. Okay? All right? So, um, and then I found out that most vets do not know about the training.

And I was like, okay. So I reached out to a few of my vets like that and we started talking. But I digress.

I

But now in school, there is more knowledge and there's more information as far as the link and everything else, and still there is a huge lack of education for veterinarians on what to look for. So it's, it's a fear of. How do you say not being able to identify something but also what if I'm blaming somebody for having sexually assaulted their dog and they didn't do anything about it, right?

So how do we, how do we tell the difference? So one of the things, so I want to bring you back because you talked about the, the bites, the bite levels. And I think that some of the people listening do not know what that means. So can you explain where that comes from and what the different levels are?

I tell everybody use it, especially in dangerous animal cases. Um, you know, I love my danger animal because it's preventable. 80 percent of them. I think When you first go there, the first level is, um, a assault. The animal goes at you aggressively. There's no penetration. There's no bite. There's no breaking the skin.

That's the level one. When a dog comes at you viciously, there's not no bite. There's no bite. That's the level one. A level two is a tear of the skin, scratch, small, small laceration, breakage skin, uh, a bruise, that bled, like any type of blood like that. It's just, you know, a scratch, that's a level two. A level three So clean it up and band aid it.

Say again?

Clean it up and band aid.

Okay. And it can cause some damage. Okay. But again, this is a normal routine bite. You see a level three. Okay. Yeah. It's really not that deep. It broke the skin. We understand we can see teeth. Can we match them up? Depends. Really depends. Okay. On the dog's mouth. And, um, and the person pulling back like that, and you can see which way the bite came based on the tear on the teardrop, they call it.

Vicious, vicious. And it seems like the animal, I'm going to say it, okay. is enjoying it with vigor. Okay. This is not a good thing. Okay. And we brought that to me. That would be high, um, predatory, um, um, uh, glance of them going into it and indeed some type of rage and when it goes and just enjoy it, just enjoying it.

Okay. Predatory aggression. A level five is multiple fours. Okay. Level five is multiple fours in a level six. You're dead. So the way I do a dangerous animal case of any sort, I go out there, I see if it's a one and if it's a six before I do anything else. If it's a one, no bite, I can't, whoosah, fuck out of here.

So the ones you're going to range is going to be two to five. Okay. So again, to scratch, you're not worrying about that. Three full bites going to quarantine, no matter what you're going to quarantine if this breaks the skin. Okay. But that three, it's going to be a regular bite. A four, that's when we talk about mauling.

Most maulings happen when you person slips, falls on the ground, they don't get up. They don't know how to assert the alpha and they get mauled. They scream and yell. And the dog rips off the appendages looking for good meat, good meat would be thigh, uh, femur, artery, thigh, buttocks, pull you down and get to the juicy stuff.

What is your, um, your, uh, your internal organs and just tear your ass up. Okay. And the more you scream and yell like that, till you throw it out. Okay. Depends. It just really depends. Okay. What type of dog and, um, fighting dogs have styles, mauling dogs don't, they just rip everything apart. It's just weird.

I tried to tell people to vet, prevent this, buy preventers for kids, tell them don't run, act like a tree, don't move, all that good shit, okay? And the more you run, how the prey drive goes up, aka play, swings into a prey, and after that, one fall, that's all. You know what I'm saying?

DrG: Yeah, and teaching people like there's so many people that cannot read body language in animals, right?

KD Hearst: You know, you know, I looked at, this is the season when you have bite cases, aka the holiday season. This is, this is the summertime, summertime, kids are out doing whatever, getting in trouble, bite cases. Holiday season, bite cases. Why? Because the dog is used to, to their regular thing, and you're introducing kids.

Who they don't know, who have no, they have no tolerance for, and want to bother them. I always say it before, dogs do not play run and go seek, hide and go seek. They don't. They run and hide because they're stressed, and them bad ass bay bay kids go over there and they say, hey, hey, and the dog's like, hey, the dog what, air bite, air bite, hush, fuck away from me, hush, just fuck away from me, and then the dog do what, alright

Oh my God, what's wrong? The dog's like, well, shit, you said it was cute. You were praising me a second ago. He's like, good boy. That's a good boy. Yes, you are. Right. And then when you play tug of war, I tell people, watch the inhibition you build up. You play tug of war and you hit that puppy growl and then you hit that real growl.

And then now your punk ass is scared of your dog. Doc, Okay. People like this, they're like, Oh, Oh shit. Dogs like this. You don't play no more? He's like, nah, now the bell said shh. Oh, pheromones. Oh, you's a punk. Okay. So now you have a problem in your household. You know what I'm saying?

So this dog may have tried to get away from them and can't. Or, you know, it gets to a point where it hurts, or whatever the reason is, and then it just gets to that point where, you know, you didn't let me go, so this is how I'm gonna let you know, I mean, I, I, a lot of people, I was talking to one of my technicians today about how people say that animals are voiceless, animals are not voiceless, we don't know how to communicate, right, we don't know how to listen, we don't know how to understand what they're saying, when the dog is backing up, Don't go forward.

KD Hearst: I mean, and what, what do you, so, so, you know, you know, the thing is like this, okay, um, no disrespect to my volunteer is my rescue people.

Y'all good people. Y'all do good work. And my vet techs, but Lord have mercy. Sometime the dog is showing the body language dogs like this. I mean, when the dog is telling you, telling you, leave me alone, leave me alone. Okay. For y'all who don't understand Ebonics, that meant leave me alone. When the dog said, leave me alone.

Right. It's trying to say I'm stressed. I'm curving my body. I'm not looking at you. I'm, I'm exhibiting all these signs to tell you I'm not feeling you. I'm yawning excessively. I'm licking excessively. I'm blowing off, uh, uh, uh, snot and everything. My adrenaline excessively and you're going to go for, you want to play with me?

So when I tell you, okay, this dog reached out and touched his ass and tore his lip off. Right. So I go to the hospital. Nah, nah. Because you know, you know, I'm an asshole. I go to the hospital, right? After I quarantine dog like that. I go to the hospital. His ass is looking like, his lip is over here, his lip is over here and he look like a mummy.

Okay. Now, am I, am I a jerk? Yes, I am. Right. I mean,

DrG: I would have said, but did you learn? Right. Cause that's how I tell people. That's how I deal with stuff like that. It's like, you did something stupid. You know, you gotta be dumb. You gotta be tough. Did you, did you learn?

KD Hearst: I told the story. I'm going to tell one time.

There's a whole bunch of cops out there talking about, watch out, she's aggressive. I said, okay, who is she? And what's aggressive? Because, you know, I know to ask questions, okay? I'm from Brooklyn, you know what I'm saying? Who, what, when, where, why, how, okay? We know that, we know that, right? From the start. So I'm like, um, I said, okay, what happened?

He degloved everything. He just tore whatever he was just like, like holding his mouth. Right. I mean, he just skinned him, skinned him alive. Right. From like an elbow, all the way down, like took everything off. Right. And I'm up there like, what does he have? He's like, he's guarding it. I was like, you okay?

He's like, no, I'm not. I was like, and I didn't know what a hybrid wolf is, you know, I'm city boy. I'm from Brooklyn. I thought it was a Husky Alaska. I'm like, Hey buddy, you okay? He said, no. So, uh, I put the, um, you know, um, control pole. Cause he won't sit on a catch pole no more. Put him on a truck and anything, almost nothing.

Okay. All right. So he sees this wolf. Outside walking around outside his picture window. Right. So he thought it would be a good thing to go over there and pet the wolf. Right. To go outside. I can't make this up. Hey, hey, buddy. Hey. And if you reach down, if you reach down overhand, that's aggressive, which was, you know, a predatory animal.

And, um, that was the last time he saw his hand. Right. When he reached over last time. Right. So, um, I was like, you know, he got snatched off. So he was in the hospital all mummified up and everything. I got the dog, put him inside a kennel. They had to go to the hospital, do the bite case. It's like three, four, five o'clock in the morning.

So your husband woke up and saw a possible wolf outside and decided to pet it. She says, yes. I said, um, it's your husband, right? She said, I know he's dumb. Yes. And she's looking at me like, she's like, I know. Right. And he, he, he's so drugged up. He's so drugged up looking at me. He can't really talk. He's looking at me.

His eyes were like, I hate you. Right. And I'm like, So gave him the idea to touch the wolf. She's, I don't know. So I was like, you know, I looked at him and everything and doc, cause you know, I'm an asshole. I said, I said, I will give you a high five, but you can't right now. You know, he looked at me like, all right, me to you, me to you.

A lot of bites are preventable. A lot of them, but going back to the sexual assault, let's go back.

KD Hearst: A reason for the bite. So when we're going out there, because, um, this isn't a, um, um, I do this in dangerous animal. So there are reasons and exclusionary, um, doctrines for bites. So, and one of those, I'm sorry, a few of those are, uh, a dog can protect itself. From, um, people. All right. It's extra from it. All right.

It can protect its young protect its owner, protect this property. Okay. Those are exclusionary rules with animal can protect itself. So we have to look at that. So if somebody is teasing or hurting or tormenting the dog and get bit. Well, time out now time out on dogs, protect yourself. So they ditch it.

He looked like a, um, a carved up jack o lantern, okay? He looked horrible, right? So I get there and everything, and that's what happened. I said, hey, uh, what happened? The old lady said they was teasing the dogs, they was hitting them with a plastic bat, stuff like that and everything, and the bat was there.

And the dog was on unbreakable chain in the front yard. Now, A, they got a citation for failure to restraint. It was not supposedly tethered up. Okay. So they got a citation on that. Okay. Irresponsible owner because the dog bit. All right. It did. It caused property damage to somebody else like that, but there was no dangerous animal.

DrG: Exactly. Because I dealt with a, with a case where a teenager raped a dog utilizing a pen. And, and that dog didn't do anything.

Right, but it's kind of, you know, you get into into these cases of these teenagers. There's, in my eyes, there's a huge difference when a teenager is doing something like this and when an adult is doing something like this, right? So we get into what, what is causing these kids, right? So these kids find all these toys and they get curious.

And it's a really bad way to exercise curiosity, but it's curiosity nonetheless. But then, we have to think about the, I say, what happens when you don't do something about these cases? Because there's all this talk about how, well, you don't really see it much. No, you don't, you don't really hear about it, but it's happening.

That's a kid that needed help. If we had not done something as a veterinarian, I was able to, to evaluate the dog. I knew what was happening. And I was able to come to the father and say, Hey, this is what's happened. Thankfully, opposed to your case, the dad in my case was, like, thankful that I was able to, to realize what happened.

I mean, he was beyond himself. He was really upset. He went through all of the stages of grief in, like, five seconds. , but, but, you know, we helped that kid get help. You don't do that, then what's gonna happen in the future? That's where we get into, into the link.

KD Hearst: Now, do you find it's mostly male teenage boys or male boys who do a lot of sexual, um, um, trauma in the case?

KD Hearst: I had one, well, in fact, okay, so it was our case. I can't say it was mine because I was in Denver teaching. And, um, they had a bunch of, um, I don't want to say crackheads, but they was doing some weird stuff.

And, um, do you know what a Terry stop is? No, I do not. So Terry stop all my law enforcement. I know you're gonna come for me. Terry stop is, um, you see suspect or anything. They look, they fit the description and you pull them over and holler at him. I'm not gonna say harass him, holler at him. Okay, that's Terry stop.

Okay. And, uh, he was like, you know, and then the officer dropped the phone. He was like, what the hell did I just watch? That was the case. And a lot of times, like you said, it's it happens, but it's not reported because this is still taboo. Okay. And most municipalities don't want to know about it. Don't want to see it.

Don't want to hear about it. Make it go away. Even though it's a crime. Nobody wants the judges, prosecutors or the defense. Nobody wants to talk about it because it's very embarrassing. Okay, but it's no embarrassing than molested a child. Is it? I'm serious. There's no difference. Okay. And, um, if you molest a kid, you molest dog, same thing.

Okay. Uh, they did it against they will. And this will help you. Do you hear this? Well, the animal didn't say no,

No, we don't. So it's the same thing with the dog. The dog doesn't know any better. And in a lot of these cases, there is harm too that comes to to the animal,

KD Hearst: right? You know, you know, the thing is, um, because Christie Fisher, one of my colleagues on law enforcement training, Christie's on which Todd, that's my homie.

Uh, even on Gretchen up in Seattle and everything I learned from up even Terry Chandler, I learned so much from all these cases. That I'm like this, I try to lean into a few things and the moment I had to watch the zoo, you know, about the zoo on HBO, you know, Mr. Hands, you never, you never heard about this.

But, um, you know, the thing about zoophilia is a relationship. With the animal versus bestiality, AKA the act. Okay. And, uh, I had to understand all this because the first time I was introduced maybe, uh, 18, no, 15 years ago, 15 years ago. And, uh, my, my instructor, uh, was a colleague too. Uh, we saw Mr. Hands and, um, it's called the zoo on HBO.

What about the horse banging you? Because I didn't get it. Okay. And then you can have a connection where you want to marry a dog, marry a horse. And then, you know, you have these brothels when you go out there in Amsterdam, you know, with animals and chimps and stuff like that. It's, it is a smorgasbord of, uh, sexual, uh, uh, nefarious things that goes on, especially overseas.

It happens here, okay? But, um, so, uh, Mr. Hands is about this, um, guy, a. k. a. Fence Jumpers. They go over there and they get, um, the female urine, uh, from a horse poured all over them to excite the male. And then they, you know, take off their clothes and back themselves up to the, um, horse. And the horse gets erect.

And they didn't know what to do. And they took him, this is Seattle, y'all can look this up, and they took him and dumped him in the um, a hospital parking lot and drove off. The only thing that was charged with at that time was trespassing, because on the books, I'm, I'm, I'm so serious.

Um, on the books, it was like, you shouldn't have been messing with their horses or their animals and these animals are trained, it was trained, uh, and conditioned for this, and Shetland ponies and all types of things, right, uh, uh, Great Danes and stuff like that. So, um, but then there's a, this is like a monument case, and then they changed the laws, where it means, you know, animals are people, people are animals, because it was, you know, it was looked at one way, and even though it was a national case, nobody wanted to talk about it.

Yeah, you need to look that one up, that's a good one, that's a really good one. Yeah, I forgot, um, Spinks, Spinks, whatever his name is. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good case.

And I was looking actually through the, through the different laws. Because, you know, like, in Ohio, the, the law as far as what is included, I think that is pretty good. So, reading directly from the, uh, Ohio Revised Code is, No person shall knowingly engage in sexual conduct with an animal, or knowingly possess, sell, or purchase an animal with the intent that it, that it be subjected to sexual conduct.

And no person shall knowingly organize, promote, aid, or abet in the conduct of an act involving any sexual conduct with an animal. So it's pretty, it's pretty inclusive. Now, the problem with it is that it's just a misdemeanor in the second degree.

KD Hearst: So, not much happens. That should be a felony. That should be a felony.

Right, you have to, okay, yeah, like, depending on what they have done, they have caused harm to an animal or whatever, yeah, something has to happen, but to truly say, this person can be released. And put back into society. Something has to happen. With being a misdemeanor, we all know nothing's happening. Right?

So it doesn't really, how to say, so it, if we were to look at it from sex toys. In theory, it would not fit into it, right? Because it's not, it's not actually so it's missing a little bit into and into what it entails. However, it does carry felony with imprisonment with not less than one year and no more than five years.

So at least the penalty is stricter than than here in Ohio.

The animal can be around the assailant. When the assailant reaches bond, they can't be around the animals. It's no different than, um, kids. We have a sex offender when they bond out, hopefully it's 5, 10, 000, 15, 000, you know, it takes them hard to get out because it's 10%. And, um, once they get out, they cannot be around, all right?

Because, uh, uh, you don't want them around. Same, same thing, you know? Um, but a lot of people understand that. And they, you know, a lot of people think it's a joke. Because in different, um, cultures, you know, um, having sex with, you know, animals is like, whatever, you know? Um, I've, I've seen it with goats. Seen it with sheep.

Nobody wants to talk about it.

So, they had bestiality, they had cockfighting, but then they had minimum wage laws. And they had some other employment laws. Things that have nothing to do with it. So I'm sure that some of the people that are voting to pass or not pass are like, well, how am I going to say no to bestiality, right? But there were some people that said no and, you know, that they didn't want it to pass and it was because they didn't agree with the minimum wage issues or with some of the other issues, but regardless, it did pass.

And some of the things that I have heard is, well, Again, it's not very common. Like, why are we going to have a law about it? Now, I'm currently, , studying animal law. And I wrote my paper, my final report on bestiality laws in Ohio. Because even though it is recognized as a sexual offense, It is not, categorized as a sexual offense, as far as, um, being able to remove it from your list of misdemeanors, since it's a misdemeanor, after the person has finished their probation, they can just get it expunged, um, there are no limitations on having, owning animals for a long period of time, there's no limitations about being around kids, there's no [00:47:00] possibility of being on the sexual reporting, on the sexual reporting list, because it is not taken that seriously.

KD Hearst: I mean, you know, I, I, I try to take it all serious. And then another thing is this. When you're on scene, depending on what's going on, law enforcement does not know what to look for. High 90% ACOs high, 90%. Okay. Uh, and then when you couple that in with the vets, high 60%, uh, you can miss it. You know what I'm saying?

When the abuser comes in, a. k. a. Mr. Wife Beater himself, comes in and raises his voice, everybody shines down and moves away. That means everybody's a victim. You don't know what victim of what, though, you know? And, um, you know, going back and doing my cases and stuff like that, you know, sometimes you question yourself, like, could this have been sexual abuse?

You don't know sometimes. And then, if the dog, depending on the penetrations like that, and how long it's been, The evidence is going to be gone. The dogs, I mean, it's going to be gone, you know, for the most part. Unless you can get internal lacerations, scarring, and tearing, it's going to be gone. Unless you can find a DNA that's going to ooze out, okay, of the mostly males.

So, you know, I want to make sure, uh, whose blood is that? Let's, let's figure it out. You know what I'm saying? So, um, you know, it's a, it's a lot of embarrassment, but to me, I'll just like a crime. It's a crime to me. Can't go. Again, I get plugged. Don't fuck up the crime scene. When you go out, you just slow it down like this.

Okay. What crime scene do I have? And I try to stay in my lane. If I have a, um, a person, it's not death by dog. I'm like, I've got a dead person. That's not me. I, I, I get somebody in here. I secure this crime scene and I wait for somebody to handle my business. It's death by dog. I want to take lead, but it's still I have to call a homicide out because we had a dead person here.

All right, because I don't do people to that degree. I'm like, okay. And the first thing is like, what you think? That's, that's a good investigator. What you think? And then you ponder on what it could be. And if the evidence match up, if the biting matches up, okay, you're like this, okay, should have been, could have been, would have been, right?

Again, it becomes the part of as a veterinarian, I wasn't the first person to see that dog. So when the, when the owner saw that the dog was bleeding and the child says, Oh, the dog fell and it started bleeding, you know, the dad has no reason to not believe the kid. So they take the dog and they went somewhere and that place, I don't know if they realized what happened or not, but they wanted nothing to do with it.

So they're like, Hey, uh, Dr. G at rascal. Uh, she'll take care of you. She has like low cost services and stuff. Just go ahead and take her to the dog and she'll take care of the dog for you. So they bring me the dog, right? So when I examined it, yeah, I have a, I have a choice. I can either be like, oh yeah, it looks like it fell.

What actually did happen right? Um, and when the police officers came in this was I want to say 2 years after the bestiality law passed in Ohio, and I called the cops because my concern is what's going to happen to this kid, right? The dad is pissed off and the kid was kind of in shock himself. So I want to make sure that, you know, I have the, the police officer to take care of it from the legal aspect, but then also to make sure that somebody is going to take this kid to children's hospital and, you know, given a mental, mental health assessment.

And when I told him what, what I have found, the dad was like, can you tell my kid what happened, what you found? And I was like, yeah, that's fine. He brings the kid, and I looked the kid straight in the eye, and I just told him, I know what you did. What did you do it with? And I didn't give him an out, right?

I didn't give him a yes or a no. If I had given that kid a yes or no question and he had said no, he was going to hang on to that no forever. So I just said, what did you do? And he, you know, came forward and said, yeah, I used the pen. And you could see that it was, you know, he was just terrified .

It has a rectal laceration. It had bruising on the back of the legs. So I have pictures of this case. These are when I give, um, seminars, conferences or whatever, these are the pictures that I show. This is what I actually saw. This is what happens to these dogs. And I went to the prosecutor and I said, Hey, you know, this is what I found.

Go get him. And they're like, well, they said the dog got hit by a truck. I said, okay, I don't care what they said, right? Because this dog doesn't have fractures, doesn't have scratches, doesn't have like frayed nails or anything like that. Doesn't have contusions. This dog's only injuries. are inside of his rectum and the bruising that had finger marks, like you could see the fingers on the inside of this dog's legs.

So maybe if I brought the case now. It would be seen a little bit more seriously, but completely disregarded. And I, of course, started, like, creeping on this guy on social media to see what kind of a person this dude is. And all of his social media were all these pornographic memes, like, ridiculously pornographic memes of somebody assaulting someone.

So

KD Hearst: we have one, I'm gonna let you, I'm gonna digress after this. We had one, it was me and, um, I had him on, Alex on Gwen Wah, uh, I had him on Life After the Badge, and, um, Alex, me and Alex, he a Boston guy, so you know, I don't like him like that, um, you know I'm a New York guy, fuck him, fuck Boston, but, um, that, he called me out, it was on 2nd Avenue in, um, Glenwood, you know, Hood, um, so I go out there and everything.

But, um, I don't know if they go far in. Um, I go real far in because there is a connection. Jeffrey Dahmer, also John Gacy, there's a whole bunch of them, okay? who started out with little stuff, burning a possum, setting on a fire, and then they move up. So they had a kid who, um, the father Was despondent and then when the kid was going on, he was worried about his PlayStation game and what, what, um, what level of, um, uh, what's it called?

Uh, when they're shooting all the guys, um, you know, um, not military.

DrG: Yes.

KD Hearst: Yes. What's the call of duty? Yes. There he is. He was on, I don't know which version was like that. He was on that. Okay. He was in the cops outside talking about, yo, your son, your son, something like that. And his son was like, um, very big kid, maybe about 11.

I mean, it was a total failure, but you saw it. And, you know, in certain communities, I won't say lesser communities, this happens. Not going in, it can happen wherever, okay? But, um, I saw this, and I looked at the kid and everything. You can just, you know, he just stared back at me and everything. And I told, um, Alex, I said, hey, you need some help.

You know? And when I see, um, these kids molest animals and do all types of things to animals, I don't know where the parent is. And again, I'm, I'm not the world's greatest parent. I'm pretty good. I'm pretty fucking good. Okay. Both of mine turned out. Okay. Okay. But you know, when you leave the idle mind to play things happen, you know what I'm saying?

And I'm like, you know, and I think sometimes we can prevent this or get help, get therapy or something. Um, some type of psychological either something. Okay. You know, because just like we have, you know, I would say, you know, a particular brand of hoarders can be educated, elderly women, blah, blah, blah, blah.

DrG: it? Yeah, and I don't know that, I don't know that it is preventable, because again, I think that some of it stems out of curiosity, and that's not something that kids are comfortable talking to the parents.

Hey, what would happen if I did this? No, kids aren't, kids aren't going to do that. And most of the time, Like in the, in the case that I worked with, it was literally a matter of the object is here and the dog is here and the parents are gone because they were at the store. So there was the means there was the, the opportunity and you know, it was just like a, that's

KD Hearst: my case.

So that's my place left alone with the dog and they find sex toys. What can we do with this? Right,

Yeah, they need help because somebody needs to explain to them why that is not okay. But the ones that are planning it out and are thinking about it, that's where that's where the problem comes. And that's where you know, that's where we get into the, uh, serial sexual offenders or even serial

KD Hearst: killers. I mean, I mean doing this for so long, and like I said, it is so taboo to talk about sexual assault with animals.

It really is. It's like, nobody said, Hey, everybody said that I'm want to know about that, and I don't want to see that. And then, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, whereas the prosecutors don't want to see it. The judge don't want to see it. You go for a bond hearing, they don't want to see it. They're like, no, no, no, no, what you think is best?

But it takes me, when I see something that is jarring, um, I don't know, my first, um, mutilated kid that's ate up by a dog, I mean, pieces of a child, something like that. It took me about, about, about a half hour to process that in my brain. Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't stand there. I had to process that.

DrG: Yeah, uh, and like, pretty much every time, right? So, I am a hundred percent objective. I look at it, I can't change, I can't change what happened. And And it's not like I want to go watch a video of what happened, like I don't need to relive it, but I have to stay focused and objective to be able to see. I gotta take emotion out, so it's not that I don't feel bad, but there is no emotion.

Right. So it, yeah, I, I have to say, I, I don't know, um, I guess I'm kind of a cold person in that, but, but you kind of have to, and, and we need people that can detach themselves to be able to process these things because they're not for everyone.

KD Hearst: You know, I posted, um, um, an old picture of me about six, seven years ago, right?

I had my glasses on, I had my black and tires like that. I said, Lord Vader rules, right? And I was in front of my truck. It's like that. And I was like the Sith Lord of DeKalb County for I don't know how long, right? And, and people, you know, people's like this, man, this don't mess you up. It's the process. And, um, I'm about convictions.

And I don't matter how the conviction happens. Guilty, a no lo. Uh, plea deal. I don't care. Um, because it's not a win or notch on my belt. Now it feels good now. I'm not gonna lie. It feels good to push my way for doing some bad stuff. It, it, it does. I'm sorry. It does. Okay. But I want a conviction that sound that can't be appealed.

Okay. I want a conviction that's so sound it like this. Okay. And the judge looks at me like this, like when a judge gives me the nod, like good job. I'm like, yeah. Okay. Right. Dr. G, I feel that shit. I'm like, you know, right. I come into the business and now, and then when I go in the hallway, all I do is wait, you know, but while I'm there, it's conviction.

You know what I'm saying? Because I see them graduating from animals to people, male or female or bigger animals later on. But again, sometimes it's cultural. You gotta watch that, you know?

DrG: I think what, one of the things that we need to do to make it, how do I say it, make it stronger, uh, as far as protection is we need to stop calling it bestiality or sex with animals.

We see it as taboo because we're thinking again of sex with animals. But if we think about it, this person sexually assaulted that dog. That is a completely different, right? Like then you think of it as poor dog, animal cruelty, we need to do something.

KD Hearst: Because, well, the thing is zoophilia, it's the relationship between the person and animal.

So having sex with them is normal. You see what I'm saying? It's like Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, you go out where the animal couldn't say no, but I was having sex with it, so, you know, it was okay. You know what I'm saying? I

DrG: Guess overall to take away is. Parents, please watch out for your kids, and please make sure your kids are not doing stupid shit. Plus, if somebody tells you that your kid's doing stupid shit, take it seriously.

Like, I have to worry about him, about him being, him being healthy mentally, physically. So, parents, please. Um, but then, yeah, veterinarians. We need to do better as far as being able to identify the signs of assault. , here in Ohio, we're mandatory reporters, and I don't know that many veterinarians are reporting because, and, and not to say that they're not doing it because they don't want to necessarily, although I'm sure that some of them, or [01:08:00] most of them don't want to, but they don't even know what they're looking for, right?

So we need to do better with that. And then we need to have the, the prosecutors, the attorneys, just take this seriously. Because any, any one of these perpetrators that they let go because they don't want to mess with it, the next rape victim is on you. Like, you could have done something about it and you didn't.

As far as I'm concerned, you're responsible for everything that they do after that point. I

KD Hearst: agree. I agree. I hope that, uh, ACOs and ACIs and Humane Law Enforcement get out of this is, learn how to talk to your vet.

Don't, don't, don't, you have to guide the vet because the vet wasn't there, unless you bring the pictures and stuff like that, and articulate to, to a point , you need to explain it to them because. They want to know, okay, what do you think happening? Don't get me wrong.

So they know how to do if it's a dead animal, what type of, uh, um, necropsy they need. Okay. Um, they, you need to, to get this stuff in and talk to the vet and be one because, um, I have a vet, I won't say her name, but she used to get these reports that like, um, officer come in there, you know, uh doc this dog is jacked up.

So the vet was like, has a picture. It's painted like this guy. Believe me, you do not need to see all the pieces of the puzzle, but shit, you should see the corners and the outlines and the highlights. So you can, you know, I'm like, okay, this is a, this is a horse. You're saying, because I think a lot of times ACOs.

You know, fam Yeah, I know. I don't dog. No, I really don't dog acis out. But because, you know, I get into, um, acis, I dog them out because your job is to be the detective. When you go out there, take and ask the right questions so you get the information. So when it, when you take down to the vet, the vet understands what to look for.

But, um, you know, the thing is you can't just leave the dog at the vet and say, it's jacked up. Or I, yeah, yeah. I mean, what about that? Is that right? No,

DrG: no, yeah, absolutely. So I start my presentations with a picture of House MD saying everybody lies. Right? And because people will give you the wrong story or messed up story or whatever doesn't, doesn't mean that it's not important.

I mean, it doesn't work like that, right? Um, also to your point of saying about being, being objective. I've had reports that will say dog was skin and bones. Don't tell me dog has skin and bones because that is, that is an emotional reaction, right? That is subjective. Tell me animal was emaciated. Animal was so thin that I could see the, the hip bones.

Because these are people that are educated, but, but, I mean, I understand how they feel. They walk into this place, they see these animals in these horrible conditions, and they, they are emotional. And then they put their emotions on paper. I don't want emotions on paper. I want objectivity on paper. When I'm writing my report, everything's objective, and then I give an opinion.

So we have to be

KD Hearst: the one thing I say, I love you said, and your opinion and your professional opinion and your doctor opinion and your veterinary opinions like that is the way different for me, in my opinion. Okay. Now, if I give a testimony as a, um, a sworn expert, then it's a little different, but you're the expert when you go to court.

You're already an expert. Okay. They don't have to swear you in as an expert. You're already an expert because you're the vet. Now, it's good that you get sworn in too, but you know, I think a lot of times. Officers, just like, Doc, you know what I'm saying, right? No, I actually don't know what you're saying, so sometimes you have to list it out or spell it out.

Because the one thing, and we always say, we don't want to what? Assume. Because assumption makes what? Ass out of you and me. You know what I'm saying? But, you know, um, I appreciate it coming on the show, man.

DrG: It was great. No, I think that we got through, through everything.

I think that we informed people on sexual assault issues. We informed people on bite issues as well. I mean, so it was just very informational and educational and it's always great talking to you. Um, you know, you and Dan were, were two of the podcasts that kind of gave me ideas and, and, you know, inspired me.

To kind of do what I'm doing. So, so I'm honored to have you in

KD Hearst: my show. I appreciate you having me on because, um, when, uh, when Dan said, yo, you need to reach out to this Dr. G chick. I was like, okay. And then, you know, you know, I was all right. Yeah. I had you on or anything. You cool. You cool as hell. You cool as hell.

Make sure you tune in next. You know, that's what I do for you, for you. So yeah, yeah. Right. Thank you. Appreciate you. For her. For her.

DrG: No, I appreciate you. And we'll have to get together. I'm trying to put together a manual for, for ACOs, humane officers and veterinarians of how everybody has to work together on, on putting these things together.

So I'm going to hit you up with the, the outlines that I got, so you can, you can tell me from your side, from your perspective, because I don't assume to know everything that you know, the same as you don't know what, like the stuff that I know. So we all have to work together. Egos aside. And get stuff done to, to get stuff done.

Right.

KD Hearst: No doubt. No doubt. Uh, hit me up anytime, anytime.