Adoption stories often include experiences of hope, longing, transition, communication, and intense love. And this story is no exception. Mike and Lisa are an amazing couple who kindly chose to share with us on the podcast their story of adopting their son, with all of the twists and turns along the way, and they graciously pulled back the curtain on their emotional process along the way. This conversation tells an inspirational story of what it means to make a family.

Welcome to the Collide podcast. We're a growing community of everyday chicks colliding with Jesus in our mess, our pain, our joy, and our stories.

We value showing up as we truly are. So that's what you'll find here.

Walls and masks being torn down so that we can allow Jesus to meet us where we truly are and hear about other women doing the we can't wait to collide with you.

We sort of live in a third lap world. And what I mean by that is that if you're running a mile, you got four laps to run a mile.

And yet anybody who's a runner knows that it's the third lap of the mile that's the hardest lap because you're so far from the finish you can't see the finish line.

And yet the only way you run it well is you gotta push at that point when you don't know where it ends or how it's gonna end or how it feels or anything like that. And I, and I think that certainly adoption was part of that too.

Welcome to the Collide Podcast. I'm Willow Weston, the founder and director of Collide and we often have guests on this podcast every week.

If you are a regular listener, you already know this, but we have people who are seeing God run right into their lives in extraordinary ways and we get to have conversations about how that be true in their lives. And so I'm super excited today to chat with my friends Mike and Lisa.

I've known them for years and watched God just write the most beautiful story in their lives and through their lives. And today we get to talk about that. Lisa got her MBA.

She was working on the cutting edge of the tech world and then decided to move away from that world and rock full time momhood. And she's a risk taker and organizer and a raging extrovert. And Mike, and you'll hear that today, I think.

And Mike, on the other hand, is an introvert. He's a runner, a successful business leader, and an all around amazing family guy. And he makes me laugh every time I'm in his presence.

I'm so excited that you guys get to hang out with these friends of mine. Welcome to the podcast, guys.

Thanks for having us.

Hello.

We're excited to hang out with you.

It's fun. I like that. Mike, hello.

The deep, the deep, hello voice you guys, you describe, and I want to go years back when you tell your story, you describe being on different pages as far as one of you still wanting to grow your family and the other sort of Feeling ready to be done adding to your number. Can you invite us back to that place and, and share with us? Did that cause tension between you two?

And at the time, did you ever think the other person would change?

I'm gonna let Mike take that one.

No, we never have tension in our marriage.

We'll have to do a podcast on like advice from YouTube on Rocky.

No, no, I don't, I don't think that there, I don't think that there was a lot of, I don't think that there was tension in that. Part of the reason is that, part of, part of the reason is that Lisa ultimately submitted and I knew she would.

Like.

No, I think that, I think there wasn't a lot of tension in that because I think we both kind of understood that.

Well, that we had at that time two great kids and, and a, and a family that was very fulfilling and also a family that was very busy and took a lot of work and, and so looking at, you know, from my perspective, looking at Lisa as a full time mom and knowing that, you know, my part of that parenting gig happened for a couple hours at night meant that probably deferring her kind of way of thinking on that would be better without, you know, so that we didn't totally upset the apple cart as far as her stress law and that kind of thing. So not a lot of tension.

For clarification, Mike, you were the one that was still open to having more kids. And Lisa, you, you even talk about some bag of hand me downs. Tell us about that, where that felt like a surrender of being done with more kids.

Yeah.

So I, I, we had two great biological kids at that point and, but we, I was done because I was busy and I was barely able to keep up with what was going on. But I, we still, I hadn't, it could sound like a hoarder, but I hadn't gotten rid of all the hand me downs between a boy and a girl set of clothes.

But it was super fun.

It is, it is hoarding.

But it was super fun to loan it out to friends and know that they could save money and then it would come back and I loaned it out to other people and so, but there a point, which is part of our adoption story, when it started to look like a lot of stuff and it was time to maybe get rid of that because it was taking up a lot of space or whatever. And yet there was something niggling in my heart or soul about why can't really just do that like that.

This, you know, I Know, in my husband's heart, he's open to more kids. And so maybe I need to submit and put down something, surrender something before the Lord.

But I'm not going to tell Mike about that because, you know, I don't want to get his hopes up.

But I'm going to lay something down in front of the Lord before I throw all these clothes out, because that, I mean, that saves us a lot of money when you don't have to re. Buy clothes when you already have them. So it was more just like, I'm gonna lay this down, but I know where this is gonna go. You know, what.

What was that likely? So where you. You use the word niggling like there was something kind of percolating or happening in you. What did that feel like?

And how long did you keep it from Mike? And then what did it look like to tell?

Yeah, I think it was just the manifestation of my incredible prayer life.

If you guys haven't figured out already. Mike is extremely sarcastic. That's why we can be friends. Yes.

So I would say that was like this kind of spring ish time frame. And the Lord did huge work in my heart for about nine months before I finally talked to Mike about it.

And so I, I, before I, yeah, I had a prayer, just kind of like, lord, if you have different plans for our family, please change my heart. But I was pretty sure that, like, I don't know how you could change this heart because I'm overwhelmed and busy and so.

But I'm just gonna do this dutiful thing of laying down this thing. But the niggling, going back to that, it was different than, like, this practical voice in my head. It was something just.

I mean, I look back and I feel like it was sort of this holy spirit inviting me into this thing.

So anyway, yeah, but when you hang out with a bunch of families that have adorable toddlers all the time, I mean, that's, you know, you're sort of a sucker for a lot of cuteness. And so there was a lot of that. That's how I feel. Like the Lord used. Used that in our lives, was lots of people.

I can name names that, you know, who had cute little toddlers. And. And I just kept looking going, oh, I could do this again. Like, this looks fun.

Because this time I would have instinct, and I would know I would be more relaxed. And. And so it just started to be this little thing where I was playing with it. But I was also.

The practical side of me was fighting, fighting this growing, changing heart Thing too, fighting tooth and nail, because I know how much work it is. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you guys feel almost like a sense of our family isn't complete? Is. Is that a feeling? I mean, I certainly.

I certainly have never felt that before. I, like, I'm done being a mom. I mean, I want to be a mom to my two kids.

But did you have a feeling like, man, it just doesn't quite feel like everyone's here?

No, I don't think we did.

No.

Which is kind of. It's kind of interesting because that. I don't think that was at all a catalyst. I think that, in fact, I think, if anything, that was a. That was.

For me, anyway, that was a really strong point of confusion because it did feel like we had, at that point, a great family and that, you know, I felt very fulfilled being a dad to two kids. And. And I think, you know, I just think there was a lot about that that was great. Definitely.

I feel like that now, looking backwards, thinking, oh, we weren't done. And. But that. That sense or that feeling or understanding really didn't come along until David came along. And.

And at that point, it, you know, to me, it became really clear, oh, we. We weren't done. I mean, our family wasn't complete.

It's so interesting to me that you were battling, like, oh, this doesn't seem logical. Like, Lisa, you were like, I'm busy. I. That sounds overwhelming.

So you're battling logic, but you also weren't trying to fill some sort of, like, dissatisfied, unfulfilled longing that you were unhappy in your life. And so this whole heart change kind of came out of nowhere for you. When did you let Mike in on that? And what did you say to him? Lisa?

Oh, yeah, that's the cool. That's a fun story, actually. So we.

I was in this small group where I got to share that prior to a date night, Mike and I were headed out on that night and shared, hey, I'm thinking of telling Mike that I might be up for pursuing adoption, which I should back up and say. We always said that if we ever grew our family. And this is really, you know, easy to say back when you don't think you're going to. You know.

But we always said if we ever grew our family, we would want to do that through adoption because we feel like there are so many kids out there who need homes.

And because Lisa had two really hard pregnancies, and we were like, yeah, I think we're done with that.

Yeah.

But.

But even so, you Know, we could have tried to do medical things, you know, in terms. I mean, it wasn't out of the question. And.

But I got to process all this stuff, really, in a cool way with people who asked me lots of questions about this before we went out to the center. And I remember I asked him, didn't I say something like, what's your thing you feel most called to?

You're just like, hey, what's going on with you? Oh, yeah, it was really kind of a simple question. And I was like, you know, work is just kicking my butt.

I don't feel like that is particularly great. And it feels like there's a lot of stress, a lot of hard things. And then, I mean, literally, I had no idea what she was going to talk about.

And what I said was, you know, one thing that I feel really good about is just being a dad. I mean, you know, I just, I feel like that's a place where I'm, you know, where I feel success.

I feel like, you know, not like I do it right, but just that, you know, there's this great fulfillment to that. And. And that's the, you know, that's the one thing that kind of makes me feel like I'm kind of holding on right now.

So parlayed into this, having no idea.

What she was bringing up.

I'm like, well, I think you're gonna like what I. To bring up. So. So it was this really.

But the thing is, I was like, I hadn't thought about it for. I mean, at that point, our big kids were 10 and 8.

Yeah, something like that. 7 And 8.

10 And 8. And I was like. I mean, my response was. At first, I mean, I was. I was really excited, but I was also like, are you kidding me now?

You know, like, wait, not like six years ago maybe, but now. So that, I mean, it didn't take me very long, but it did take me a couple days to wrap my head around it at that point.

So you're like, come on, woman. Take longer, take less time to change your mind, is your motto now, Mike? I mean, because there was that 10 year gap where you were still open to it.

Lisa was. And now she's coming to you at a dinner and she's telling you this. And I mean, do you. Do you look at that and go, wow, like, never say never.

I mean, what. What's your. To see the change in her? What was that like for you? Was that surprising?

It definitely was. It definitely felt like a really big deal. And it. I wouldn't Say it was totally surprising because I think that.

I think I recognize Lisa to be really thoughtful and to. To be somebody that, you know, will process something and. And change her mind. And. And so I. I really don't think it was.

I don't think it was surprising, but. Well, that. It wasn't surprising that she changed her mind, you know, that she changed her mind about having a third child, for sure, you know, was.

I mean, it. It shocked me at that point, but, you know, well, she really didn't want to marry me in the first place, and she.

That.

So I, you know, I had seen it happen before on big decisions.

The moral of the story, God can change people's minds. Folks, how long was your guys's adoption process, and did you ever want to give up in the process at any point?

Okay, the first question is easy to answer. So from the time we had that dinner, which I felt like kind of putting a mutual peg in the wall in our marriage and saying, this is some.

This is something we feel called to as a married couple. We don't know if it'll happen or get to work out. But from that moment until we got to finally bring David home was about three years.

And so it was a long process for us because, you know, you train for a race and you finally get to run a few months later. I mean, this was like.

Like research how we're going to do it for six months and talk to everybody we know who's done it and then apply for another two or three or four months.

And then you sit and wait and you put yourself out there and you tell, you know, if you're pursuing adoption, you're telling everybody, you know, because you never know who knows somebody. And so then it's really vulnerable because this might never happen. So.

So it was three long years, I would say by the time we heard about David, we had heard about. He was the eighth kiddo scenario that we had heard about that. So there were a lot of roller coasters. So did we ever get up, give up?

I'll let Mike answer that.

Well, I have to. The other thing that I would add to that is I vividly remember sitting at dinner with Lisa the night that she told me about this.

And I vividly remember saying, well, if we are going to do this, I mean, I'm in now, but I don't think I'd be in three years from now just kind of thinking about kind of what that would mean in terms of gap between our kids. And so, you know, clearly that changed a little Bit too, you know, So I completely gave up.

And I think it was about two years into the process and, And I, I checked out. I mean, I, I think if it wouldn't have been for Lisa, you know, I, We. We wouldn't.

Have.

We wouldn't have found David. And, And I was. It was really hard, I think, to go. I think that the very.

The first true match that we had, for a whole lot of reasons, we ended up saying that we couldn't do that. And, and it wasn't. It didn't have anything to do with the child or the, you know, the birth parents or anything like that. It was just. There were.

There were just some really weird circumstances and we just said we can't do that and, and it, it tore me apart. I mean, I, I think I was. I think I felt. I remember when, when Annika was just a few months into.

Lisa was pregnant with Annika just a few months, and, and there were some complications and I thought, oh my gosh, what. How horrible would it be to lose a child in. In the midst of a pregnancy? And, And I kind of had to think about that a little bit.

Not for very long, but just kind of briefly. And, and when we, when we said no to this kind of initial match that we had a couple years in, I was just devastated.

I mean, it was, you know, we were making the choice, but it felt like we lost a child somehow. And I think at that point I just. I couldn't re. Engage. I just was really having a hard time.

I think I dealt with some depression and stuff like that around that. That I just was having a really hard time re. Engaging with. And Lisa just kept on trucking.

And it was so funny because she would drag me to these conference calls with people and my heart totally wasn't in it. And I'm like listening, going, yeah, okay.

And so, you know, when she says, you know, eight potential things, I mean, I think the next six were pretty, you know, passing and minor, I guess, in my mind. But I just, I mean, I, I think I was out and so. And it took some real, I think some healing and some time to kind of re. Engage at that point.

So, yes, definitely a sense of. Of checking out.

It's a yo, yo process. So I, I feel like, oh, I want to encourage anybody that's interested.

And yet that's the part that I would say, make sure if somebody is interested that they've got supportive people like we had around them and wise people to carry them through that journey of ups and downs. Because it is a roller coaster with no unknown ending.

Yeah. I feel like a lot of the people that I talk to who've adopted, it's like this roller coaster of, like, hope and then lose hope, hope and lose hope.

And it's.

After a while you start to wonder if you should get your hopes up, and then you feel bad that you're not getting your hopes up, and it just kind of becomes like this mind game and hope, which. Which sounds really hard. I. I think that, you know, there's probably people listening where even I.

And I don't have a story of adopting a child, but we can resonate with having a big dream and hitting like a moment, like the. Where the roller coaster dips down and you feel like you're losing hope, that maybe this isn't our story, maybe this isn't going to work out.

When you guys think back to those moments where you almost wanted to give up, what would you say to your then self?

Yeah, that's a great question. It's.

It's really fun, actually, to look back on this right now because I feel like it's inspiring me to remember how the Lord provided, as I look back at this story in miraculous ways. And so I guess knowing what I know now, I would say, don't give up. And. But.

But I also kept words through other people or stuff I was reading or I felt like through the Holy Spirit that was telling me to enjoy the process.

And boy, oh, boy, some parts of that process are not fun because you have to live, like, with a go bag in your room that if you hear of a child, you would uproot and go fly to meet that situation. And, you know, so you can't plan a vacation that you can't get out of for three years.

And so, yeah, I would tell myself not to give up and to enjoy the process because there's refining. I felt like there was a lot of refining that the Holy Spirit did for me during that process that prepared me for David and our family. So.

And that was an important thing.

There.

There.

I became more. My sister would not say I had any trouble being assertive, but I became more assertive in ways to advocate for my kid.

You know, I, you know, I had to learn not to worry so much about what other people thought.

And not everybody wants to please other people, but in a case of being an adoptive mom, you always have to think of what's best for your kid because there's gonna. There are just gonna be other voices in the story that you want to please and and it's, it's.

Takes some strength to be centered and remember that, that your kid comes first.

Mike, how about you? If you could time travel back to your then self and you could say one thing to yourself, what would you say?

Well, I just wanted to just kind of reflect on your question because you, the way you asked that. I really appreciate, I think, thinking that there are, there are a lot of things that are like that in life.

And I think I, I think I'd even argue that everything that is important in life that we kind of set our minds to and kind of go after it usually doesn't have much of a finish line. I mean you. About, you know, being married, being a parent, you know, mission work, it doesn't usually.

There isn't usually like a point where you go, okay, I'm done. I got that. You know, I finished, I think. But yet I think we're also wired as people to have a finish line, you know, to.

I think, I think I, I know I accomplish more when I can see the finish line and, and complete something. And, and yet I think a lot of things just don't have that.

And you know, even, even with this story, I mean, with, with adoption, I look at it and I think certainly, let's be really clear, this finish line was not the day that David came home with us, you know, and, But I. So I think about that a lot. I, I think about. I think about important things kind of being that we sort of live in a third lap world.

And what I mean by that is that if you're running a mil.

Four laps to run a mile, and yet anybody who's a runner knows that it's the third lap of the mile that's the hardest lap because you're so far from the finish you can't see the finish line.

And yet the only way you run it well is you got to push at that point when you don't know where it ends or how it's going to end or how it feels or anything like that. And I think that certainly adoption was part of that too. So, so that's probably what I would say to myself.

Yeah, that's such amazing wisdom. You guys know how much I run. But I will draw on that illustration. You know, I wrote down while you were talking. This is what you make me think.

All good stories have moments that dare you to give up hope. Yeah, it's like all good stories dare you to give up hope. And you hit that moment and you got to push through. You got to run that that lap.

I also like Lisa, you said you're l living with a go bag, and I love the idea that we're all. In a sense, we could all live with a go bag, ready for the story that God wants to write. I mean, it's an interesting way to live.

And so often we get so comfortable and we're not really waiting for God's go, but you're really living into this. Like, okay, God, what are you doing? Where will you have us, who you bring to us? I mean, it's just kind of like a waiting and a watching.

Was that exhilarating in some ways?

Oh, not for a control freak like me, But I will say hope tastes good. And so to have that, in a sense, that. That position in life with a go bag where you're hopeful toward something that you're. You're kind of wondering.

I think I was called to this. I'm doubting it here and there, but I. But then somehow, each day, the Lord gave us strength to keep putting a foot in front of each other.

However you say that.

But I also think it was really a great thing for our two older kids to see us walk through that because they saw the ups and downs of that, but they saw what's hard about striving towards something and then being obedient to what you think is a call and then being willing to be okay in the end if it doesn't work out because. Because you followed the process of the call.

In a sense. Yeah. That's amazing.

But I will add, for us, we had a luxury that a lot of adoptive parents don't have.

So I want to be sensitive to people hearing this who have not added to their family yet and yet have that dream, because we had this luxury of knowing that if it didn't work out, we still had family. We had two kids already. So I think that the whole process, honestly, it's like you have to. You're.

You're.

You have to prove that you're worthy as you fill out all this paperwork.

And if you're coming at that with already kind of a grief frame of mind because maybe you've dealt with fertility issues and that sort of thing, I just. My heart goes out to people in that space.

So I want to acknowledge that because I think there are people that have to walk through that in a different way than we did. So.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that you're pointing that out. And I. I've actually never put thought around that, that they're already grieving loss in their own life.

And wanting to hope. But it's a different experience than a family who's adopting that already has children. I'm glad that you brought that up.

One of the really fascinating parts of your guys's story is that in that three year process, you know, I think Mike, you said you had eight kiddos kind of come to you as far as options or, or something. You can explain that better than me. But there was moments of giving up, there was moments of high hope, low hope, all of this stuff.

And you had multiple different, almost what I would say, spiritual experiences where people either had dreams about your son or they spoke words over you guys.

And I'd love for you guys to share whatever you're comfortable with around some of those experiences, because I also think that those are ways that God works.

I, I appreciate that this is obviously a women's ministry, so I can talk about the Holy Spirit here, but I would say this chapter of my life is when I learned and grew more in an understanding of a sense of the Holy Spirit.

And, and it's interesting how the Lord used like I was in a moms in prayer group around our school and different small groups of people that I was sharing. This is our dream. And they would pray for us in that. And, and it's kind of fun because those are the people I run into now in life.

And we are excited to celebrate this little guy in my shopping cart because we prayed about this. But yeah, I had one woman who had, when we were praying about it, had a vision she felt like the Lord gave her of a kiddo with dark eyes.

And for the people on the podcast that don't know. So I don't know if we've gone into the fact that our son and David is black and we are white. So anyways, and then another person.

Had.

A dream or not a dream, but, you know, felt like she had something from the Lord that we were going to adopt a little guy with curly dark hair. And I all along was positive we were gonna adopt a girl.

I don't know why, but I mean, I was, my heart was around the whole situation in India and what's happening to little girls there. And I don't know why, but I just was like, I, I'm gonna take notes of that in my stuff, but, you know, but I'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen.

So. Yeah. And then I don't know if you want me to share anymore. I did have a pretty significant dream myself.

So let's hear it.

Yeah.

So I, I, I don't know, I think it's comical, but I feel like the Lord speaks to me through dreams and I don't love that because of my control freakness. But I think that's probably why, like, because that's where it has comes out when you're finally sleeping.

But then that, yeah, my, my grandparents who are now who were deceased at the time were in my dream.

And my grandma, she had Alzheimer's when she was alive and my grandpa couldn't see and hear very well, but together they were using their abilities to care for this little black baby. And anyway. And they were, but there was a tooth issue with the baby and they were like, yeah, we didn't see that because we can't really see.

But we're just caring for this child until somebody can adopt him. And, and I said, well, I could, we're approved. We could adopt this baby. And you know how dreams are weird.

I can't really see this baby, but he basically, in a weird way, that dream is he grows up in my arms to a four year old to where he could talk all of a sudden. And he says, you mean I get to have a family? And that baby was black and he was a boy.

And so I wrote that down like, oh, look at this funny, weird dream I had.

And then when we heard about David's birth mom and her description, we both did a little head snap because part of her description was when they asked if she had any drugs during pregnancy and she did not. But she did say, oh, I did take penicillin for a tooth issue.

We just sort of were, you know, it caught our attention like this weird tooth thing just came up about this baby. Anyway. So, yeah, I don't know if that's a prophetic dream or just, you know, tea sandwich, but I mean, you know, it's interesting. It was interesting.

And then, yeah, I don't know, it could sound crazy to some people, but I, I've had a couple other holy spirit moments like that that I could go on and on about.

Well, I would say the idea of a God that speaks to us, that is crazy. And it's crazy cool. And he still speaks.

I think sometimes, you know, we read the Bible, we hear Bible stories and we think, oh, God did those things way back when. But it Seems to me almost like he was keeping your hope alive.

He was kind of speaking to you and prophesying the story was already writing that he was predestining before you could even see it. Because then you guys got a call, right? And you were picked to be David's family. What was that like when you got that call?

That's exciting.

Yeah, I mean, the, the timing of it was remarkable because, you know, it's kind of weird to wait. It's. It's weird. I say it's probably horrible to wait three years for something like that come about and then to get a. To get a phone call.

I mean, we weren't even signed up with the agency that we got the phone call from. And when we got the phone call, David's birth mom, I think, was eight months pregnant.

And so it was kind of like we waited three years and it was like, okay, and in a month this baby's going to be born.

And.

And so it was. It was kind of crazy quick. And it was. I mean, the timing for me was. Was perfect. I mean, the timing for me was finally, I think.

I mean, really a week earlier, I think I was able to identify in myself that I was ready to re. Engage. And. And we had. I think. I think I had taken a week off.

We had taken a trip, and I kind of just had a chance to recognize that I was in a better place. And. And so I kind of came back and then I think it was that week we got this phone call.

Call.

So. Yeah, and then. And then the, you know, the crazy part of the, you know, we. We got on the phone with David's birth mom, having never met her before.

You know, I'm imagining this, you know, I'm imagining this woman sitting on the other end of the phone line, you know, eight months pregnant, trying to find a family for this child who, you know, clearly she was, you know, was making this choice that she. That was hard. That clearly that, you know, was a very loving thing, that it was, you know, it was.

There was never a question that she was making choices to do the right thing for the baby that she was carrying. I mean, it was. Was just. That's what it was all about. And, but just kind of imagining her in that place. And, and so we, we.

She sent us before we got on the phone, fortunately, she sent us some questions that she wanted to ask us about, so we had a chance to think a little bit.

And, and so we get on the, the call and the very first question and the first question that she asked was, what makes you think you can be better parents for this child than I can be? And it was kind of one of those questions of. I mean, to me, it was like, clearly the fact that she was asking that question meant.

I mean, it spoke volumes to me about her, you know, just knowing what it means to be a parent, you know, knowing what that looks like. And. And I. My. My response was, you know. You know, that's such a silly question. Of course we can't be, you know, any better parents than you could be.

We're, you know, we're going to make tons of mistakes. We're going to, you know, we're going to do all kinds of things that are crazy. Being a parent is hard. And.

And yet, you know, we're going to absolutely love this baby the way that we love our first two kids.

And. But.

But, you know, man, I don't think I have a great answer for you on that question, because we're gonna, you know, we're gonna struggle just like most parents do. And it was. And I think. I think in that was. I think. I think as soon as she asked that question and we answered that question and she.

Whatever she did, she made some knowing responses or noises or something like that that made me know that she knew that, too. I was like, oh, she's gonna pick us. I mean, I think at that point, I just knew that she was, you know, that that was a done deal. And. And. And it was.

That story speaks so much to who you guys are. And the reason why I say that is it seems like you could feel the pressure to kind of like, you're being shopped and you have to present perfection.

We're going to be perfect parents. We're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. Here's how. We're awesome. Like, here's all our. That's just a really genuine answer. Like, it's just true.

Parenting is hard, and we're going to do our very best, and we're going to love this kid, but we're going to make mistakes. I mean, what a genuine response.

Well, we kind of figured we had to be because we thought, you know, we probably can't be around anybody more than five minutes before they're going to realize we aren't very good at this.

Everyone listening to this is shaking their head. They started 30 minutes ago going, yes, you're absolutely right. No, I'm just kidding.

Hey, Lola, can I add one more thing to that, though?

Absolutely.

So, obviously we were stoked and terrified at the Same time about this opportunity, it felt right. We loved his birth. We still do love his birth mom. Just the way it came about was in a way we didn't expect. And that was also.

Somebody had had a word from the Lord about that, too.

But I will say that the really cool part was that by then, so many people had heard we were hoping for this, that we really had this sense of our whole community getting to celebrate when we finally did get to bring him home. That is. It's bigger than a podium moment. It. It's bigger than an Olympic gold medal or something.

You know, when you see people that have prayed for this, for your family all along coming alongside and celebrating with you, that there was. There was and continues to be such joy in that. So I. I guess that was the. That was the unexpected joy in that.

And of course, you know, initially, you. You don't tell anybody that you're about to fly in a month to go do this. You tell. I mean, our.

Our older kids knew and the grandparents knew because they were going to circle the wagons and take care of the big kids while we did that. But you can't tell anybody, because until you get there and it happens.

But boy, oh, boy, I mean, we had such an outpouring of people celebrating with us about, look what the Lord had done.

Yeah, absolutely. Because they had a vested interest, because they'd been supporting and praying for you. Yeah.

They saw God write this huge story before we get to the moment where you met your son, David, because I want to talk about that. I feel like I have to pause and ask this question for so many reasons. I mean, in light of what.

I mean, I'll say as a white person, what I'm learning, continuing to learn, and the charge and challenge for all of us to be learning about racial injustice. You know, you guys are a white family, and you, you know, you kind of heard people's dreams and visions and prophecies, but you weren't sure.

But was there any preparation to become a transracial family? What did that look like for you in preparation to become parents of a black son?

Yeah, definitely. We took classes and talked a lot to people about that. And you. When you're applying to adopt, you check all these boxes.

And so we absolutely were open to a child of any race and any gender. I mean, you know those things.

So we.

We knew that was a possibility. So. But as a white family and as we're trying to educate ourselves and take classes and all these things, there's still so much we didn't know.

And so we. We don't even know that we're doing it right now.

But what we did know was that we were committed to prioritizing, understanding that journey if we did end up adopting a child of another race or that looked different from our family. But I don't think that we knew how big of a deal it was, even though we thought we did until we were in these shoes.

And then, of course, we've seen what's happened over the past year, kind of this awakening in our country about reckoning for racial justice. I don't know if you want to add to that. That.

Yeah,.

The.

You know, I think that what's happened in the six years since David was born I think has brought racial injustice front and center for a lot of people in the white community. I'm. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a new understanding for a lot of people in the black community. But, um. But here it. But there.

But a lot has happened in the last six years, particularly in the last, you know, maybe three or four years. And. And so it's definitely. I think it's made us more and more aware that we. That we don't know. We don't even know what. We don't know kind of a thing.

And. And so I think that. I think our.

Our most important default with David has been to just lean into communication, you know, making sure that everything is a safe topic. And. And making sure that he knows that we can talk about race.

We can talk about, you know, there's a huge part of that that's just wrapped up in adoption, too, that we can talk about the fact that we look different from each other and. And we can, you know, just that there's no topic that's unsafe.

I had a couple of conversations with some black men that I know that encouraged a number of things.

And the one that I think resonates the most was a friend of mine who said, make sure that you make those topics safe because they happen a lot earlier. Racism can show up a whole lot earlier than you might think it does. We've had little.

Little nuggets of wisdom like that that have come along that have, I think, helped to shape a little bit, I hope, of, you know, some good kind of parenting moves. But. But a lot of it feels like, you know, a lot of it feels like we're. We're learning faster than we can keep up kind of a thing.

So I love that you guys posture yourself as learners and that you're creating a safe space for David. Tell us about the moment that you met David.

It's pretty exciting. Yeah, I, I, I get a queasy stomach really easily, so I couldn't believe his birth mom invited me, between the two of us, into the operating room.

To be there because she had, she.

Had a planned C section. And so I got to be right there.

Wow.

But I, I sat next to her.

I was positively so was going to puke.

That wouldn't have been helpful anyways.

And so, yeah, the David was born, and they bring him over to me, and I looking at him, and this is, it was incredible because you're looking down at a, a dream and a hope that you weren't ever sure would happen. So that was thrilling.

Was there a moment in, in the significance of that where you also felt, I, I don't know what that would be like, but, but you're holding the baby. She dispersed. Was there like a awkwardness or a feeling of feeling sad that you kind of felt like you should hand him over and she should meet him?

I mean, what is that like?

Well, she made it amazing for us, and that's just. Thank you, Lord, for how it went. I don't think it's the same. Every, every adoption story is different.

Different.

We watched this Is Us, you know, that story in that show right now is very different. But, but, but nonetheless, I, no, I, I felt like he was mine.

Like I, you know, other than, oh, my goodness, he has lighter skin, you know, but I, I felt that and I held him over there so she could kind of hold him as she's able to, and she's being sweet and looking at him and touching his face and, but no, she really, in her amazing strength, made me feel comfortable to let that feel like our child just was born. But, but kind of like I felt like our child, like her child, my child is very weird, you know, kind of this oh, mom moment, in a sense.

Yeah.

And you guys, you have an open adoption, and Mike, you wrote a letter to David, and in that letter, you remind him how much his birth family loves him. And you actually, I wish everyone could read it because I started tearing up in my office all by myself having a moment.

But you give him specific examples and even just asking you this, I feel emotion, like, why was it so important for you to make sure David knows how much he was loved by his birth family?

So, so partly because I think that it would have to be a question that a child or someday an adult would have, wondering, why did my birth mom make this choice? So partly it was thinking about it from David's perspective. And it's funny, Willow, because I wrote that note before I met David's birth mom.

I wrote that note mostly in the airport, flying down to see them. I kind of wrote it as an open letter to my future son kind of a thing, just thinking about it. And what I learned, though, was that I wasn't.

I mean, I was not wrong in my assumptions about his birth mom. And I think she was the best surprise in the whole adoption experience because I think she was just remarkably strong, but so clearly loving.

I mean, you know, and it was so clear to me that this wasn't a choice that she had made lightly. I never. It never for a minute occurred to me that she would change her mind because she was so thoughtful and strong and how she made that decision.

And it was clear to me that she thought it was the best thing for David and that she was doing it out of this really clear sacrifice. And so I think.

I mean, as I reread that letter, which I do reread that letter regularly, because it reminds me of kind of some amazing times, but I think I know her more now, and. And I'm amazed at how it's even more true, I think now.

And one of my best pieces of evidence for that was that we spent, you know, we spent two days in the hospital after David was born in a room right across the hall from his birth mom. And. And so the day, or the. I think it was the morning that she was going to sign papers that would relinquish her parental rights. Parental rights.

I guess we went over to her room with David, and we had talked about this ahead of time, and we said, hey, we just want to have some time with you. We know this is probably going to be a hard morning, and we'd just like to pray with you this morning.

And she has a faith, like, she also believes in God. So she tobacco this up.

And in the midst of her prayer, I mean, she. She was clearly in pain, in fear, in love, was.

Was just expressing, wow, this is going to be hard, and, you know, expressing how much she knew it was the right thing. But I think.

I think even in wisdom, beyond what we understood, recognizing it's not just going to be hard now, it's going to be hard always just knowing that she made this choice and it's the right choice, but it means that David's growing up somewhere else and hearing her express that and kind of seeing the emotion of that. That morning, I mean, I just. I could never, you know, there's nothing anybody could ever do to change my mind about her. I mean, she stands out to me.

Sometimes it almost feels like the Lord didn't just give us David, but he gave us this amazing birth mom in the story, too. Gave him that really, too.

I love that, you guys.

I know we could talk forever, but in a nutshell, how would you say this has shaped you as people and shaped your two biological kids, this experience of having David now, now as family?

I've certainly learned to trust the Lord more. I've seen.

I've seen evidence of laying things down in front of the Lord and him doing amazing things and, and miraculous things, not always the way I thought they were going to turn out. So this journey did that.

And then I would also say our two older kids, who, so basically they are 10 and 13 years older than David, they have become really good friends with each other and of course, with David, too. But.

And then I would say there was this great distraction, like they suddenly had this reason to be looking outside of themselves as much or to look outside of themselves. And so he was this great, fun distraction. So I feel like they.

They fought less or fight less because there's this other component in our family, this dynamic dynamic that has just made this beautiful, chaotic, fun, joyful, hilarious, bouncing energy that you just don't have time, you know, and. And they. And they also have amazing instincts and skills with little kids now because they babysit and.

And they've had to learn a lot more than I knew at that age. So I think they'll go into, if they choose to parent, they'll go into parenthood with more insight, instinct, and confidence.

Well, you guys, it has been fun to hang out with you. So much wisdom and, you know, some tears over on my end. And I'm just super, super privileged to hear your story, to watch it unfold.

And it's a reminder to me, and I think to so many listening people listening, that God is writing a story beyond what we can find, wrap our minds around. And you guys trusted him for that. And even in the moments that were hard, you kept trusting him for that.

So thank you for hopping on and sharing today.

Thanks. It was fun.

Thanks, Willow.

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