We're diving into some wild territory tonight, folks! We're unpacking "The Substance," a flick that stirs up all kinds of feelings about identity and self-love – or the lack thereof. Our guest, Jackie McGriff of Our Voices Project (@voicesproj) joins us to talk about what it means for all of us navigating the crazy world of expectations. From body horror to the harsh realities of fame, we're breaking down the layers of this cinematic piece like a piñata at a birthday party. So grab your popcorn, settle in, and let’s get into it – because trust me, this film is gonna stick with you long after the credits roll!

Takeaways:

• This episode dives deep into the wild world of body horror, exploring how it reflects personal struggles and societal expectations.
• We had a blast dissecting the film's themes of identity and self-acceptance, with a side of dark humor and gore.
• The conversation revealed how the visuals and sound design create an immersive experience that leaves viewers questioning their own perceptions.
• Our guest, Jackie, shared her insights on the film's critique of Hollywood and the pressure to conform to unrealistic beauty standards.

Check out Anomaly on Social Media!

www.anomalyfilmfest.com

Twitter: @anomalyfilmfest

Instagram: @anomalyfilmfest

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnomalyFilmFest/

Join us for the Anomaly Film Festival November 5-9, 2025 at the Little Theatre in Rochester NY!

Mentioned in this episode:

Joe Bean Roasters

Joe Bean Coffee - Coffee that lifts everyone. https://shop.joebeanroasters.com

Guglielmo Sauce

Guglielmo's Home Grown Marinara Sauce is available in your favorite grocery store! Pick up a jar today! https://www.guglielmosauce.com/

Punches & Popcorn

The masters of Couch Potato style Mike Huntone, Jason Bills, and Dr. Dominic D’Amore take a deep dive into the best and worst of martial arts films. https://punches-and-popcorn.captivate.fm/

The following footage is certified pg.

Pretty great.

It's Anomaly Presents with your friends, the podcastronauts.

Sounds like a lot of supernatural baloney to me.

Supernatural, perhaps baloney, perhaps not.

Hi, everybody.

We're back.

It's the Anomaly Presents podcast.

The podcast about the genre movies that inspired the Anomaly genre.

Rochester Genre film festival.

It's been a minute since we've done this, so I might be a little rusty, but that's okay.

Yeah.

So this is Anomaly Presents.

We are a podcast about genre movies.

This one tonight we're talking about is not one that really inspired.

Might go the other way around.

Like, it's.

If you like Anomaly, you probably like the substance.

So this movie has been kind of bouncing around in 75% of our brains for.

For a couple months now.

25% of us just watched it this morning.

You'll find out who in just a minute.

So let's get right to it.

I will introduce our guest in our podcast rounds.

We have a guest tonight.

That's how excited this has been so long in the making.

Because I ran into our guest and she was like, we have to talk about this.

We need to get together.

I need to get this out of my brain.

And that legitimately was in what, October, September.

So, yeah, I'm sorry we've left it sit and fester this long.

Jackie.

Jackie.

It's there forever.

Yeah, it's there forever.

So it wouldn't matter.

Wouldn't matter.

Fine.

Tonight was hopefully the night for catharsis, but we'll see.

We've got Jackie McGriff, filmmaker, photographer, our Voices Project, one of my favorite people on the planet, with us tonight to talk about the substance, along with our podcastronauts, some of my other favorite people on the planet, we've got kp.

Hey, everybody.

I am also ready to just, I guess, explode and get rid of the feelings that this movie have lingered for months.

And our neophyte to the substance, Megan.

Hi, I'm Megan.

Give me all of your feelings.

I'm gonna soak in this movie forever.

Yep.

Oh, my God.

So, yeah, I think we'll start just kind of because it's fun to talk about.

Let's start with how we felt after we saw it.

We can.

I'll go quick and then we'll go around.

I went to see it with our friend Stromi and.

And his wife Carrie in a theater, and it absolutely blew my mind.

But we stumbled out afterwards not knowing really what we had seen.

It was still washing over us.

I'm happy.

I'm happy.

Embarrassed to say that it was maybe about half full, the theater, and Chris and I were the only ones that laughed in certain parts.

I think that was appropriate, but I don't 100% know still.

But, yeah, it was.

It was a roller coaster.

And then I think it was the next night, ran into Jackie.

Jackie, what was your experience?

Okay, so.

So I think.

Well, at least.

At least most of the.

The.

The people I'm in the podcast with.

The.

The post.

The.

The.

I'm trying to say it.

Podcastronauts.

Is that what I said?

It's cool.

Okay.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So you.

I'm sure y'all have heard the story, but for those who are listening.

So I.

I, of course, love movies.

I wouldn't be here if I.

If I didn't love movies.

So my birthday.

My birthday is in September.

I was like, you know what?

I really want to sit in a movie theater.

I want to watch movie.

Let's.

I'm gonna go to the Little.

And I'm looking at all of the choices, and it was one of two movies.

It was either, okay, I go see.

I go watch sing sing and be sad, or I go watch the substance and be weirded out.

Like, I knew it was gonna be a weird.

It was going to be a weird movie.

And I do love weird movies, though.

I.

It was my, I think, first time in a body horror film or watching a body horror film, so I definitely wasn't sad.

I definitely wasn't sad.

The goal was not to be sad on my birthday.

And I got my wish again, be careful what you wish for.

And so I just spent.

I was okay throughout about, like, I want to say the two thirds of the movie.

I'm like, okay.

It's like, it's.

It's the kind of weird that I was expecting.

I'm like, okay, it's about the substance.

I watched the trailer at least right before watching said film.

That last third, though.

Yes.

I think.

I think stumbling.

I think, Matt, when you said stumbling, I think that was exactly the appropriate thing because.

Well, first of all, I didn't know.

I.

I did not move.

Okay, during the.

During the credits.

The end credits are rolling.

And I'm like, I don't.

I don't.

I don't know what to do now.

Do I.

Do I just sit here and kind of just let it all kind of sink in?

Do I leave?

Because I really don't know what to make of the last.

Especially those last 15 minutes.

I don't know.

I'm like, okay, so.

So we get the Message.

Right.

It's a very clear message.

Right.

But it's done in such a way that I'm still sitting here.

What?

It's a.

It's been how many months?

Three, four months or whatever?

Yeah, about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Four or five months.

And it's still.

It's.

It's.

It's still in.

In my head there.

So that, that was my experience.

So like I said, I was not sad.

Not sad at all.

And that, like I said, was the goal.

So.

Happy birthday to me.

A birthday movie.

Oh, my gosh.

Kp, we'll go with you next.

We're bringing on home with our freshest brain.

So you had told me about it and you had given me a heads up.

Hey, you're gonna feel like you watched Titan, so don't watch it at night.

And you're probably gonna have to sit with it.

So, sure enough, I got up early on a Sunday and ate my breakfast and watched the substance and then was just sitting with those feelings all day from whatever next thing I had gone to to the next thing, the next thing.

So, yeah, definitely appreciate the heads up.

We had learned our lesson.

We saw Tatan together.

Yes.

And it was another one where we just kind of walked out zombie.

Like, just.

What just happened?

So that 45 minutes of debriefing in the.

In the littles parking lot and then went about our day.

Well, went home to sleep.

Went home to sleep.

And we're further haunted by it.

You, me, and Dan were all just.

I don't know what we did just now, but.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that was.

It's very much the French man.

Holy cow.

French women have a lot of things to.

To say.

Yeah.

Do it with a style in panache that is absolutely unmatched.

I don't know if you can do it if you tried.

Meg.

Yeah.

What's.

What's your experience with the Substance?

Well, I mean, okay, so we know that.

I just.

I just saw it today.

Well, what if I don't like it as much as I think I've convinced myself I will?

But it turns out I love it.

I love everything.

It's got glitter, it's got goo, it's got blood and boobs.

Lots of boobs.

More than you would think and in places you weren't expecting.

And that is all.

Yes to every single.

The movie was like, every scene.

Visually, it has, like, it's like pop rocks on my brain.

Like, it's like it's made visually specifically to go, oh, I like this.

Oh, I like that.

That's Cool.

Oh, look at that color use.

Look at that color use.

Did you see that composition?

And then it got gooey.

So I, I, I understand, yes, I understand why it's not for everyone.

I for sure understand because some movies are very specific, you know, and I've got very specific little switches.

And this, for some reason this movie just flipped a bunch of them.

Well, going off of, you know why you love it.

Like visually you can tell that once you're in Coralie Farjay.

I never took French, so apologies.

But like you can tell like just truly how intentional she is about everything.

And they only had about, I think 90 days of shooting and then they spent a month in the lab.

And basically that was like with all the prosthetics and being like doing a lot of up close shots where it was just a much smaller crew and they got to do like all the goop, gooey stuff and all of that.

So you can see like how intentional it is.

Like even for the body prosthetics, like for Demi, where she's like lying on the bathroom floor, that's a body prosthetic because everything is practical.

And she was so clear in how she had written this that she knew she wasn't going to need legs because of the framing.

So when she worked with its pop FX is the she worked with for all this stuff, she was like, yeah, we don't need to build the body prosthetic with legs because we're never going to see him.

So I, I appreciate that kind of.

Listen, why waste time on legs?

I'm like, no, use that.

Take that money towards blood.

You need all the blood money for the.

If you watch a behind the scenes that that movie did, that's about 30 minutes, they show the behind the scenes bit of that last big thing and it's, you know, just a giant fire hose of blood.

And you know, all the crew is dressed in ponchos.

Like they're going.

The Maid of the Mist.

Really does just turn into a Gallagher show.

It's, it's just, and they had all.

The actors, you know, the extras at the end, you know, covered, covered in blood and then, you know, you know, getting the blood out of their shoes and everything.

So.

Amazing.

So, but yes, how intentional she is about everything is, I think is what took this to another level.

Oh yeah, yeah, it, the design for me almost feels like Bizarro Barbie at a certain point.

Yep.

Yeah, I like that.

Where it is completely taking place in a dollhouse.

Like everything is just, you know, the billboard right outside the window that keeps changing.

The fact that the name of the show is the show.

The.

The big show.

Yeah.

You know, there's just.

No.

Yeah, it's.

It's totally a.

A little kid's version of this stuff.

It's.

It's very fairy tale.

It's.

Yeah.

And I think part of it was.

Oh, go.

Go ahead.

Every.

Every set feels so uncomfortable for a human to move in that apartment.

Why would you live there?

The.

The long hallway, Like, I started feeling sick at that long hallway.

Every bathroom is a nightmare.

Why?

Why.

Why would you do that?

But I love that because it makes it like an uncomfortable world that, like, our main character does not, like, fit.

Well, no one does.

No one fits into this world.

It's all for aesthetics.

It's not a human world.

Yeah, well, she had.

So she purposefully decided to film in France.

And so she wanted to get that LA vibe, which is kind of funny.

And she just basically says, like, I needed a palm tree.

And then you knew it was like la, but like, you know, the star in the Hollywood Walk of Fame and all these little things.

And then it kind of forces her to be more creative.

And I think that's also lending itself to the Barbie version of la.

And then you get.

Get that.

And Margaret Quaily, like, all of her design, she looks like kind of 80s Barbie, right?

Like, with the leotards and how her hair is done and the bright colors.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

The bright colors, really.

They.

It really messes with you.

I mean, this is always.

My thing is like, I'm constantly telling people, whenever I'm talking about movies and everything, or at least we're talking about behind the scenes.

It's like every single person who works on a film is a filmmaker because, you know, you have the actors, you have the director, you have the screenwriter and everything.

But also, too, it's the.

It's the production people, it's our design, it's our department, really.

That also too, you know, combined with the computer composer and everyone else who works in the film, you're also telling a part of that story too.

So it's like you're watching this.

Like you said, it's an adult house.

It's really just.

It.

It gives you that, again, kind of like.

Kind of.

Yeah, that artificial.

That really artificial, you know, superficial look and everything.

And it's the colors that really.

That really do that to you.

So it's.

Yeah, like you're really thrown into.

Into that.

Into that world.

And yeah, it just.

It really just makes it So I do appreciate that.

That hallway in the.

In the office building there, that long hallway just has such an anxiety for me, at least.

Just filled me with so much anxiety because it's just such a fun house angle.

It just feels like it goes on for ages.

Feels like the shining.

It's got that shining yellow in the carpeting.

I was like, oh, no.

Nothing good ever happened to you hallways.

Nope.

Yeah, imagine, like, if you're, like, full of yourself, just walking down a long, uncomfortable hallway with giant pictures of yourself.

It'S either.

For a certain kind of person, it's either.

Either the best thing that's ever happened or the worst.

And that's the thing.

It kind of.

You see the moment where it turns, you know, like, this was incredible.

And now it's just a reminder.

It's a hall of mirrors, you know?

Yes.

I like that idea of set as character, too, because as we are learning about Elizabeth, who is Demi's character, though these are both her, which we'll get into later about how, like, this is all her, even though she keeps dividing it.

Giant photo of herself, younger, on her wall.

How is that ever comfortable?

And the answer is, it's not.

She has this giant ass, larger than life photo of herself in the apartment, watching over her, and then later, staring at the younger version of her on the billboard.

And I'm like, right there, she's caught.

They're both.

And they're both her caught in the middle of these.

Both sides of her that hate each other because she hates herself.

Yeah.

I was like, oh, look at that.

Look at that.

Look at that set.

Oh, it's telling me stuff.

It's giving me character stuff.

Can we.

Like, it's the.

The part also, too, that I.

That actually surprised me the most because I.

Again, the goal was not to be sad, but there was a sad part.

There was a sad part because she.

This guy who clearly she had.

She didn't want anything to do with at first.

Right.

And then she has this chance to.

She's like, you know what?

I'm gonna be open.

I'm gonna go out on this date.

Yeah.

I'm getting emotional actually, just thinking about it.

Yeah.

Just, like, you look so she.

So for.

Again, like, okay, she's.

She's getting excited.

There's someone who actually who, like, wants to, you know, spend some time with her.

And so she's getting ready for this date.

She looks gorgeous.

I'm sitting there, I'm like, you look amazing.

And then she takes.

Before she leaves, you know, she takes that one look at herself in the mirror.

Doesn't like, because she's constantly got.

Again, like you're saying, Megan, she's got these reminders that all around her, like, saying she's not good enough.

So then she goes back to the mirror.

It's that back and forth of going back to the bathroom and then her finally just giving up and being like, you know, I'm not gonna leave because I don't.

I don't feel like a little good.

Like, I look good enough.

And then if we.

If that wasn't enough, the text we're seeing now, the text of him, like, hey, where are you?

You know, is everything okay?

Like, I.

I could have screamed.

I could have screamed because I.

I was sitting there.

Now, mind you, I'm also sitting in the theater, so I couldn't.

Right?

Because if I would have been sitting at my apartment, like, I would have been screaming.

But I'm sitting there like, you look.

You look.

You look great.

You look great.

You look great.

You look fine.

Like, it's fine.

It's fine.

And like, I just could.

Ah, I was thinking about that.

I was thinking about, like, again, because she hates herself because she can't stand and look, because she's also playing a comparison game with herself.

I mean, how many times as women have we thought back to, like, how I used to look, how, you know, how much it used to weigh, you know, how my life used to be, you know, how I used to think of myself, you know, and everything like that, or comparing oneself to how you used to.

To be, rather than loving the person you are right now.

And like, I go through that all the time and I see that all the time.

And we see that as women just in general.

But then also, too, it's like I'm reminded of it, you know, when I'm out there taking photos of women.

And it's.

That's the constant thing.

It's like I haven't even picked up my camera yet, and women are already like, I'm not good enough for photos.

Or I.

Like, I'm not photogenic.

Yeah, you're looking at them like, you're fantastic.

Like, you don't see what I see, right?

And it's that thing.

It's like.

And that's where this is.

What I loved about this was because it throws you right back into that, Right?

But then also, like, because you're looking at it, you're going, you look drop dead gorgeous.

What is the issue?

But how many times do we do that to ourselves?

Yeah, yeah, it was like her herself, but also every.

Right.

Like, the industry she's in her age.

Like, right.

Plays this factor that, like, she's literally hearing him say, like, yeah, we don't need her.

Like, we need somebody young and hot.

And so I think what also was interesting to me in this is, like, right.

She has no friends.

She's very solitary.

She's all alone in this, like.

Like, kind of mausoleum of an apartment.

And she has no one else to be, like, what are you talking about?

You know?

Or, like, bounce these legs off of.

She just has her and younger.

Younger her maybe you know, who just, like, they don't even like each other.

So it's like, I would even add on that it's not even just younger her.

It's idealized her.

It's the whole thing with substances.

The better you.

Yeah.

It's a view that didn't even ever exist because it's impossible.

So that's the other thing that.

What?

She can't let go.

What?

She can't let go because he keeps kind of like, tiptoeing up to.

Hey, maybe you should stop this.

This is getting bad.

But she can't, because I think she's looking at a possibility even knowing that she's not gonna experience it.

You don't share memories.

Like, that's the weirdest thing I felt like, oh, they, like, share memories.

So you're living, like, every seven days they switch, right?

No, you're just, like, dead on a floor, on the tile floor, but still not be able to let go of.

Well, maybe because it's that.

Maybe that lives in a lot of our heads.

Well, maybe if I just exercise more, ate better.

Like, it's that.

It's that that'll never happen and doesn't need to happen.

But because you're being sold.

Sold it so much.

Because being sold it so much, it, like, lives in your head and the substance brings it out.

And that is horrific.

You know, the other thing I kind of.

I found interesting is a lot of times I think of when I talk to people, current self versus future self.

Right?

Like, and how that affects the decisions you make.

Like.

Right.

And that goes back to back.

Like, am I gonna eat?

How am I gonna eat?

Am I gonna exercise?

Am I gonna smoke or am I gonna drink?

Am I gonna make things easier for future.

Future me?

Because I see us as one person as opposed to what's often very common is.

And I have played victim to this myself, where I say, this is future beast problem.

Yeah.

I don't know who she is.

But good luck and Godspeed.

Yeah, I'm treating her.

I'm treating future me as somebody else.

Which is not healthy and doesn't help.

In the long run.

And it was kind of interesting to see that kind of play out in a way.

Like, yes, it's the idealized version.

Right.

But, like, as a younger version of yourself, too, you're just like, I'm hot.

I'm gonna have fun.

I'm gonna go out.

I'm gonna party.

I'm gonna go have sex with a stranger.

Like, I'm gonna just go out and have a good time and not think of.

This is like, future me may not be having a good time because I did not take care of myself.

Like, Young me's taking all my spinal fluid, taking everything from me.

Who among us can't relate to that?

Oh, but I love how visceral this movie makes.

Those ideas of, like, cannibalizing yourself for something that doesn't actually exist.

Anyway, I was like, oh, I love that.

I think.

And I guess I love.

That's why I'm sure we'll talk about later how when we get to this third version of.

Of her, the.

The monstro.

Eliza sue, how.

Actually, that one seems the most like, accepting of herself.

But that's because her anger is.

Is outwards.

We finally see her because once she's beaten the crap out of her.

What version of herself?

Right.

And, yeah.

Is now desperate because turns out you can never be perfect enough.

Yeah.

You know.

You know, she's less than a year old.

This perfect version, and it's already over.

Right.

So I love that this third version is the version that's like, you know what?

I'm gonna put these earrings wherever they fit on my giant head.

I'm gonna put on this blue frilly dress, which was beautiful.

I'll put out a little face so everyone will think I'm somebody.

I kind of love that because that felt very much like, why don't you see?

It's me.

That version knows it's her.

It's so interesting.

No other one says it's me.

She says, it's me.

I'm Elizabeth.

I'm Sue.

The one version of herself who knew that she was herself was the one that was, like, dealing with all the consequences.

Yeah.

Of not understanding that, you know?

Yeah.

It's that.

That moment of acceptance that you get.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The true idealized version with the third or what the second go around of the substances is like, I don't need anybody else's.

Everyone else's opinion of me doesn't matter anymore.

Yeah.

Why can't everyone else see who I know I am?

And it's sad that it came at this point where, like.

And you still have Elizabeth face herself on the back, which is interesting because this not happened before, where there's that part of her that started this all is aware this is all happening, but can't do anything about it except, like, once at a certain point.

Consequences.

You don't get to have on this anymore.

You know, she's in the fo part.

So many times could have turned around where I'm like, girl, just stop.

You could stop at any time.

You can stop at any time.

She couldn't.

And that's the tragedy.

This is all as much as like, what's this company?

It's weird.

What's it?

And we could talk about, like, I'm sure, respond, you know, the idea of, like, diet culture or weight loss drugs or any or Botox.

Right.

It's also interesting that, like, it facilitates this, but it is not make the choice.

In the end, she's writing her own tragedy because she can't stop.

Like, this was a choice.

It's interesting.

It's.

She's not tricked into it.

She's not even, like, coerced.

Because at first I thought, oh, the work would coerce her.

No, no, this is literally just some.

Some guy at the ER who looks like a mannequin slipped a note in her pocket, but she's already to the point of desperation.

Yeah, well, it feels like, right.

It's very much a fairy tale.

Right.

Like, even the rules set up, like, the overall structure of the story or in the vein of, like, I think of like, Donkey Skin Girl, which.

Yes.

But it's like, yep, you got seven days and you need to follow the rules.

And like, this is the repercussion of the fact that you don't love or see yourself like, that you are one person.

We have very simple rules for you to follow, and you're not following them.

So now here are the consequences.

Shout out to the graphic design there because they visually spell it out very simply for us.

So as an audience, we're not bogged down by learning the rules, but we're finding it out as.

As our main character is.

They're very easy.

Like, it's like impact or a font like that, which are like.

We see this, like, even the way the equipment is designed, like, as she's learning to use it, we are understanding, like, oh, those are seven capsules, seven days, and we can count time now.

When we see the capsules, I'm like, what great visual designs that we can follow along.

Like, oh, oh, no, those are too many.

Oh, those are.

You're reusing.

That's not seven.

That's not seven.

That'S not seven.

To notice when it's coming out wrong.

We know along with the character.

Like, well, that's not right.

Yeah.

Oh, no.

All those food packets.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Oh.

But it's storytelling that isn't just like, it's.

It's showing you as how.

How it's telling you.

Which I appreciate.

They're like, the movie's like, you'll figure it out.

I.

You got it.

And I'm like, do.

Thank you, movie.

She.

She a lot more.

Because there's not a lot of dialogue.

Right.

So like the visual aspects of it need to do head heavy lifting in addition to like.

Yeah.

The actors carrying it.

Like, because you think to be more.

Doesn't really have a lot of other scene partners.

She's just acting literally with herself.

And I don't mean other her.

I mean she's literally.

It's her herself.

And she's got to carry the weight of that story through most of this alone.

Oh my.

Just.

Yeah.

The journey she goes on.

I mean, I'm to pick out one scene that I was cackling and this is good.

That I was cackling during is the whole almost like Baba Yaga Strugga Nona witch scene where she's like cooking.

Oh my God.

Holy crap.

It's hilarious.

I feel like I can understand that.

Like, it's me.

You got this all from me making the grossest food and like moving the spine.

There's a lot of spinal imagery in this film and I loved it because it's like.

Yeah.

Both the idea of like sometimes you punish yours.

Like if depending on how you handle, you punish yourself with food.

Yes.

Like, you go, well, the hell with it.

I'll just, you know, So I.

That felt real.

Real, but also like, and I'm gonna make a mess for you.

My perfect self that I'll never be.

And I just.

I just felt it because it was very like, literally visceral.

She tore viscera out of a turkey as she's almost destroying herself.

I'm like, yo, you know, anger cooking is real.

And I felt it real hard.

She was just so good in that.

And she's almost like, literally she's hunched over that point because that's where her body is.

Yeah.

She is the witch.

Like, she's gotten to the crone part of this, like, maiden mother crone situation going on.

And I was like, oh, that imagery is good.

And also cackling.

You know what?

I can't.

I honestly, I can't imagine anyone.

I don't know if I could have.

Could have imagined anyone else playing this.

So, like, when we were talking before kp, you know, about seeing, you know, I guess, like, there was an interview or something with all the Charlie's Angels from Full Throttle, and, you know, they're talking about their experiences and they talking about this movie, and there is this.

I'm remembering back to, like, when that movie came out.

So Charlie's Angels, Full Throttle.

I was also someone who was very much like, I love this.

I want to see this.

Oh, my gosh.

And I just remember all of the articles that came out during that time where it's.

It's like people are talking about Demi's comeback and how, like, how amazing she looks at the age that she is.

And so, like, when you mentioned that, I was like, oh, my gosh, yes, of course, there is a certain age in this industry where, you know, you are no longer seen as desirable, but if you look a certain way at a certain age, oh, my gosh, how brave.

How amazing.

This is your comeback time when really she's been here the whole time.

She's been here the whole.

Just crushing it, right?

Just crushing it.

But because she looks a certain way and because her body looks a certain way now, it's like, oh, my gosh.

No, we need to talk about, like, how just incredible she looks.

Everything is about how she looks.

Not about how her life has been, not how, you know, about her acting, per se.

No, it's not about any of that.

It's just how amazing she looks in a bikini and how.

How surprised folks are that she looks the way that she looks at the age that she is.

And it just goes back to that, right?

It's like at a certain age, you know, it's.

You know, as much as we talk about, you know, we're talking about, again, hating yourself, is also that the external part of court of that.

Of course, that's not helping, but it's also the industry that she's in, like, a certain age.

You're disposable.

Like, you don't.

You don't look like the.

You don't look like the perfection or the.

The standard.

Right.

That we want.

Right?

It's.

It's like, okay, well, either you, you know, play a mother, you know, like an older mother, someone's grandmother, or Whatever.

Right.

You can't.

I'm sorry.

But at that age, like, you can no longer look or you can no longer be someone who's going to be desirable.

Yeah, Yeah.

I just looked up how old she was when Charlie's Angels Full Throttle came out.

Any guesses?

I'm gonna get real angry, I'll tell you that.

Right.

What do you think she was like in her 40s?

Megan, Matt.

Any guesses?

No, no.

I'm.

I'm too full of to say a number.

Yeah, she was 40.

I'm not gonna guess at that.

Yes, I remember.

That's what I.

Because I was like, 40s is not old.

What is.

It is not at all.

It is not at all.

And, well, now.

And not to get old, but like.

Where you see people now and people in their 20s modifying their bodies and getting these procedures done that are making them look like somebody in their 40s, because it's common for somebody in their 40s, plus to get procedures to look younger.

And so now it's like this weird yo, yo is happening.

That's what I was gonna say is that when that movie came out, it was kind of like that prime, like Maxim men's culture garbage.

Right.

So that's.

And it seems like since then that that unfortunate window just keeps shrinking and shrinking and shrinking to the point where, like, you know, she was 41 there.

Now, now, if you're 35 now, now you're the mom.

If you're 33 now you have to.

I have a.

I have a bird.

That's all I had at 30.

I am a mother of one.

My bird.

I mean.

No, you.

Yes.

That's what you like from a TV perspective.

Yeah.

Perfect example.

There's that new sitcom with Tim Allen.

I hate to bring him up, but it's Tim Allen and Kat Dennings.

Yep.

Oh, my gosh.

And Kat Dennings is playing the divorced mother of two that has to come home to dad because she has no place else to go.

Yeah.

And it's like.

It's Kat Dennings.

Oh, the way I.

What show was she on?

Because the one that got canceled because we could have had 50 seasons of that doll face.

Yeah, that was fantastic.

And that was like an.

Oh, you know, a 20, 30, something like trying to find herself and after a long term relationship where she cut off all her friends and then basically goes back to them and kind of has to fix all that and then you follow all of them.

Wow.

Much more interesting.

You know, this is.

This is a good.

This.

This is a Perfect time to bring up how men in this movie are portrayed, which is hungry.

Like, every dude in this wants something.

Every dude in this.

Like, it's interesting because you keep coming back to the idea of Elizabeth to want to be loved.

Like, they both have the one.

Like, one of the connecting things is love, but what they're actually getting is not love.

It's desire, it's hunger.

It's wanting to be consumed and move on to the next one.

That one scene near the end where sue has already pulled some of her front teeth out and she's lost the edge and she's just walking down the hallway and, oh, we'll talk about Dennis Quaid's Harvey, which is an interesting name for this character where he's with all the.

He said, all the shareholders.

And they are all like the same dude.

Some white, balding dude in his 60s or 70s, some lecherous guy.

They all.

I mean, they're all like, I.

I'm not, like, seeing this.

Because the whole thing is.

Even as she's trying to move through, all these, like, showgirls walk by, and these guys are already distracted by this line of other.

Like, their.

Their.

Their new darling is already lost some of her lust there.

He has to tell her to smile, which he doesn't want to do.

He just wants her to be his perfect little smile.

What's he say?

Pretty girl smile.

You know, not.

Not.

Not subtle, but, like, the movie is very clear.

And he's the biggest example.

That one beginning scene where we see him eating those, like, shrimp or prawns.

And it's just one of the grossest things ever put.

And that's him.

He's just.

All he is is appetite.

All he wants to do is, what can you do for me?

You know, you're.

You're not a shrimp.

I want to eat anymore.

To me, I want a younger shrimp.

And I appreciate that movie, again, as a movie, not being subtle, because I think fairy tale came.

KP is a really good way to say that.

Like, that is just like, no, this.

You're searching for something you're never going to get here.

And she doesn't realize that.

And that's part of the sadness is like, no, they're not.

There's no love.

There's never any love here.

And I love that you brought up that she's alone, too.

Because I'm like, there's.

She has no one to say, honey, you're fine.

Like, nobody ever comes to check on her.

When either disappear for a week, no one gives a.

Except For, I guess, the next door neighbor who wants to.

Obeying sue, you know?

Oh, yeah.

I'm so glad he gets yelled at by a.

A creepy version of Elizabeth.

I'm like, good, you deserve to be scared.

Back into your apartment, buddy.

Stay in there.

You know, I totally forgot about him too.

You know, out of all the things that are so easy to remember that.

That he was.

He was forgettable.

Well, that's his whole point.

This dude is the most mid.

Mid that ever middle.

And he thinks that, but he's like, I'm handy, baby.

You know?

Do you want to have a drink?

Here's a buddy.

No to her time.

He goes to the door and he's talking.

He says, I can see you through the eye.

I know you're there.

Even with.

And.

And like, he won't take, like, Gross, man, Gross.

She's never.

At no point does either versions of our character give him a yes.

Come on.

And yet he's still there.

Well, and most of the other men, like in this too, are just like slugs of men, but with the highest level of confidence.

And it's like.

And, you know, then you see Elizabeth being like, girl, girl, I want you to look in the mirror and like, then look over here and be like, okay.

I was like, listen, I don't want to judge these dudes, but I'm judging these dudes.

Hard personality puts them right in the negative thumbs.

Yeah.

No disrespect to the actors.

You did your job very well.

Like, is this the same guy?

Is this a different guy?

I don't know.

There's a genre of guy that looks like a thumb or a testicle, and that's just their lot in life.

And they're always gross.

And they're the one with all the opinions they have.

They're the ones with all of the opinions.

Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan is the earth testicle.

Like, he is the.

Yeah.

If you look at him, you're like, oh, yeah.

Yes.

That is testicle zero.

That.

That is a testicle that gains sentience.

And now he just talks about MMA and.

And supplements and whatever other.

That's him.

But there's a whole genre of those guys.

Walking testicles.

All thumbs.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, you know what?

We can get into the body horror now because, I mean, it starts fairly soon.

And you think, this is.

This is as gnarly as it'll get.

Right.

If you see a human emerge from the back of another human, you're like, oh, this is.

This is it.

If I can handle this, I can Hand the rest of the movie, can you?

No.

But, like, the way she directs is just.

Everything is just so tight, so you're just so uncomfortable.

Like, she's.

Yeah, she's gonna make you be involved.

And, like, again, the lack of dialogue and I think, like, sound design and then the visual.

I was just gonna say the sound.

The sound design.

You know, you see the back moving so you can feel it yourself.

You're feeling how these things feel.

You're just in it.

And I'm like, damn you.

Seriously, that's what.

That's what got me the most, is like, oh, okay.

The visuals are one thing, but the sound, the sound.

And I'm glad that you pointed out the sound design, because I was just like, if anything, like, even if I.

Even if I close my eyes, which I did.

Even if I close my eyes, you.

Can still hear wet crunching.

Yeah.

There's no escape.

It's so right.

There's no escape.

It is so I'm like, I appreciate that, but also, why.

But like, I mean, I know.

I mean, I know why, but also I was just.

Just sitting there and just going.

It's so.

And again, getting also into themes here.

It's like she is basically, like, kind of like just throwing yourself away.

But it's so.

It's so violent to.

To do that to yourself.

To part with oneself is very violent.

And so, like, the.

The.

The sound.

The sound.

Again, give it up to the sound department.

Yeah.

Hate you.

But I.

But.

But love you at the same time.

But love you at the same time.

It's a hate love relationship is just.

Oh, it was just amazing.

What I thought was interesting, right, because you're saying, like, throw.

Throw herself away.

And she does.

But it's so weird because you have to take, like, the whole point, like, the way the substance is, like, set up.

Like, that even comes with suture stuff.

So the, like, the perfect version can, like, sew them up and then feed them.

So, yeah.

And then you have that whole line where Sue's whole little, like, line at the end of her workout is, te, take care of yourself.

She's saying the words that she will not do for herself.

And we see with a physical metaphor of the fact that how she's like, well, I'll just build a room to tuck me into, and then I'll just put a bunch of, like, crap in there, and I'm gonna take down the photo of me.

So she's doing everything that is the opposite.

Like, so I'm wondering, how does this work?

If you Actually cared.

But of course, I don't think you.

Use this substance if you care.

No, there's just no way that goes.

Yeah, because we see that when they.

When Elizabeth runs into the old man in the diner who's the.

The other version of Mannequin Doctor.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I love that because you're like.

Because I was curious, how does this work for other people?

Turns out, not really.

If you're willing to trade half of your remaining life for some other version of you that you won't even remember to exist.

Well, you already are not in a great relationship with yourself.

And I thought that was interesting to see that little.

Like.

Like.

Oh.

Oh, no, that doesn't go great, does it?

No, actually.

Actually holds her body.

Like, the fact that she just starts.

Each of them start dealing with themselves, like, worse.

Dragging themselves around, like.

And I just.

It's perfect because it was.

The word accelerates.

Yeah.

Very quick.

Quickly.

At a certain point where they just are just.

They hate each other and it's them.

No lights in the closet.

Just nothing like on the bathroom floor.

Which is not a blanket.

Yeah, nothing.

Oh, that's the other thing that was also.

I said that too.

I was like, a blanket nothing.

Just a pillow nothing.

Like, take care of your body.

But of course.

Of course, if she cared about her body, like, she's doing the bare minimum.

Like, the fact that it also comes with.

That's interesting, too.

It's like, the fact that it comes with something to feed your body, knowing full well that if you're.

If you're part of this program, you're not going to, like, you're already like, you know, I'm done with this version of me.

Right.

It comes with stuff so that you can take care of it.

Because otherwise, like, how else are you.

I mean, it's like, how else are you taking care of it?

But at the same time, I'm like, okay, let's make sure that we also supply this for the people that are using our product, just in case.

Yeah, well, it's that other part of the metaphor, which is like, you can't run away from yourself.

You can't.

Like, yeah, you can think, ah, I'm the best version of me.

But, like, you need your spinal fluid, which I guess is a metaphor for yourself.

But I like that.

That, like, no, you can't just get rid of one side.

Right.

Or the whole idea is, like, if you end it and you're in, like, your original.

Well, that whatever.

Whatever happened, happened.

The cost is the cost.

Right.

You know like that.

And I appreciate that because I think that's part of it is the idea of, like, it really should be about, like, integrating yourself.

You're connecting.

Segregating yourself.

Yeah.

For one, you are one.

That's the entire.

Yes.

That's the entire theme throughout the movie is you are one those things you hate.

Are you?

Right.

Giving her a different name?

Like her coming up with a new name.

And I'm like, oh, no.

And it's not even.

Not even any nickname of Elizabeth.

Like, no separation.

You know what I mean?

Like, you think of, like, Liz, Beth, Lizzie, like, even something.

It's just.

Nope.

A complete cut off.

Yeah.

And new identity.

And it's like, nah, you were something to fail.

Okay, so a funny part with the body horse.

So getting back to.

Because you started.

We started to talk about funny and body.

This is the only part.

This is the only part that made me laugh.

Okay.

Because otherwise I'm like, nah, I'm sorry.

I'm trying.

So.

No, no, the.

So when she's at the.

When she's dancing, she's doing the dance routine, right?

She bends over and there's like.

And then.

And then they're.

Now there's.

The thing is, like, they're all now trying to figure out what that was because they caught it on camera.

Yeah.

Viewing.

And she's like, oh, God.

Oh, God, oh, God.

Like, and I'm just like, yo.

Like, if you ever try to put, like, Spanx on or a pile of makeup or like, a shirt not the right size, I feel like that's the feeling of dread where you're like, the button popped and I breathed.

You're like, now everyone's gonna see.

Like this.

Everyone's gonna see my butt bubble.

Yeah.

I felt that.

I was like, oh, no.

Oh, no.

Put it on the big screen.

Screen.

Yes.

The entire crew go up.

They're like, five seconds.

They're like, go.

Just go frame by frame.

Just mortified.

His heart breaks.

But I also love that because I'm like, yeah, sue, it comes for you too.

Like, right there.

Like, it's.

It's like there's no peace to be had.

You know, there's always an imperfection.

It's not always a chicken drumstick that you move throughout your body and then pop up on your belly button.

I was like, what is that?

What is that?

You know what?

Would never have guessed.

I'm going to be honest.

Movie, you got guesses.

Never said.

Chicken drumstick.

It's going to be a drumstick.

Even as it's coming Out.

I'm like, I'm not sure.

Not sure what that is.

Okay.

All right.

Jackie, is body horror for you, you think?

I think I'm a.

I think I'm a one and done.

Watch.

You gotta watch the.

I have been challenged.

I've been saying.

I listen, okay?

Every single conversation I have with people who are very much into horror films, I am.

Someone's like, listen, I am.

And this is.

And I've been doing this over years.

So before I say this next bit, you'll understand.

So I'm like, I'm easing.

I've been easing my way into horror.

Like I said, it's been years that I've been easing my way because this is not a way to ease yourself.

So I'm saying this has been a process.

This has been a whole process.

So I was like, okay.

So, yeah, so I'm like, I do as much as possible.

Like, I'm like, I had to fully sit with this for a while before I could really be like, okay, wait, did we actually like the movie, though?

Did we actually like the movie?

And I do.

And I do.

I've been recommending it to people also, just with a fair warning.

The thing if body horror is not your thing, I would say maybe think about it.

But, like, other than that, it's like, again, the best movies, no matter what genre, if there is a message to be had and it does and executes it, that's how it executes that message.

Well, in the.

You know, in the film, it's.

It's a.

I feel as though it's a great movie.

And so horror, really good horror, at least to me, like, does that.

You know, when you have these films who are seemingly just like, again, on the surface, it just looks like you're watching something.

It's just like, oh, my gosh.

It's just like the shock after shock after shock.

But it's to a point.

It's to bring that message home about acceptance, body acceptance or rejecting one's body or, you know, all of these different themes.

And so I was like, no, I actually really do appreciate and love that this.

This film was exactly that.

Now, the way in which it was executed, would it have been my decision?

No.

But at the same time, I'm not the filmmaker, so I just had to sit back and look at somebody else's work and appreciate it for what it was.

That's the fun thing about genre.

Like, genre specifically, right?

You take something deeply personal.

And this actress, the.

The director was like, turning 50 and having lots of Feelings about it.

And then so she's able to put pen to paper and say, this is how I'm feeling.

And let's just make it excess.

Like, you're gonna have to deal with this messy.

These messy feelings that I can't do out in.

In.

In my everyday life because I have to control that.

But let's just take it to excess and.

But be.

It's still grounded because it's built on something real.

And I think that goes back to wonderful casting with like, Demi Moore.

Right.

Because we've watched her her entire career and she's felt her own way, like about then an experience.

And so you get that grounded performance in there.

Yeah.

That's not.

No.

Like, big shout out to Margaret Qualy because I haven't seen much of what she's been in, but I did watch Fosse Verdon.

I was like, oh, yeah, she isn't that.

She was also Once upon a time in Hollywood.

I did not watch that.

She.

Okay, that's kp.

That's fair.

But yes.

Yeah, she's what?

One of the.

What's his name?

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Yeah.

But that's the only.

I believe that was the only thing that I had seen her in previous.

Me too.

Yeah.

I was the same way.

And I was shocked.

I was like, wow, she's.

She's fantastic with this.

I was really blown away.

But to me is another level.

I was.

We're post Oscars now and.

Yeah, that was disappointing because she absolutely.

For everything that we've talked about, she.

That entire movie, she plays against herself.

Yes.

It's.

It's just her in a room.

Absolutely.

That.

The moments that you were talking about with the text messages and the rubbing, the makeup and the.

That was the moment for me that sealed it.

Like, same.

It gutted me sitting there.

This is the.

It just absolutely destroyed me.

And I did not expect to feel that in this movie.

Like, I expected, you know, the social satire plus, plus body horror, plus, like, that was what I was thinking.

And then there's this piece in there and it's the heart of it and it just absolutely destroys you.

And that's all to me by herself with a phone.

You can do this quiet devastation and then like over the top monstrousness all in the same film.

You know, she could have the kitchen scene, which is hilarious, and then have that and.

And they're all the same character.

And you're like, yeah, it is all the same.

These are all the things that she has inside going on you know, these are all the different sides of this woman who hates herself.

You can see the entire life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what's interesting?

Like, demise.

I've been fascinated about the choices she made.

There was a couple years ago, the Amanda Kramer film Please Baby, Please, which we.

Some of us saw.

Right.

And that unlocked the memory.

I forgot she was in that.

Right.

What about.

Because it's a fair.

It's a small independent film, and she just has this scene about this, like, neighbor upstairs who has a very interesting relationship with, like, her husband.

And it helps, like, unlock stuff for the other characters.

But I'm like, why?

Like, like, for my first fault was like, why is she in this?

And then I was like, because this is an interesting role and she's now taking interesting roles.

And so it feels like stuff that she wants to do because this isn't.

Like, this was never going to be an award thing.

This.

Please, Baby.

It's.

It's a small, independent, odd genre E film.

But I can see why she would choose the role because it's meaty.

It's dealing with this, like, what you would call an older woman at the time and, like, her relationship with, like.

Like desire and relationships and all that.

And I.

I appreciate that.

Like, real heavy, you know?

Like, I love that these are the choices she's making because these are.

They're interesting.

And I feel like this.

The stuff that she wants to do.

And that's great to see, you know?

Yeah, it's.

It's all going back to the.

The stuff that she had to do for Full Throttle, right where it was.

It's kind of dealing with that whole.

Oh, yeah, I.

I'm.

I'm on my comeback trail and all this other stuff and having to be objectified for so long.

Now she can just say, let's play with that and kind of deal with the fallout of that.

I think that's fascinating.

I think that's so great that she's able.

Able to do it.

Hell, yeah.

Hell, yeah.

Yeah.

It's also like.

It's interesting because it's really the.

The movie is, like, also kind of making fun of.

I mean, it really is.

It's actually making fun of, like, Hollywood, like, the whole.

That.

That whole industry in and of itself.

Because, number one, first.

First off, we basically saw the plot of the substance play out at the Oscars, like, when she didn't win the awards.

It's like she's being upstaged by a younger actress.

Like, it was like, this is.

Yeah, this is the plot right Here.

Y'All, what a terrible date amount for the whole thing.

Right?

But and then also too, like, the other thing is like Margaret Qualy, on the other hand, she's doing all these interviews.

I was, like, watching when it first came out.

It started watching all these interviews and the interviews at the.

The interviewers, at some point when they were some.

Some of these men were just asking like these really.

Just invasive, creepy questions.

And I'm like, so tell me you didn't see the film without telling me you didn't actually see the film or just went completely.

Or if you did, it just went completely over your head.

Because I would have thought someone who's, you know, doing the research or at least trying, right, to learn, you know, from like, what the movie is teaching.

Maybe.

Maybe you wouldn't ask such questions.

Maybe you actually ask questions, you know, more about, like, her approach to the character and her, you know, actual job rather than, you know, her looks and all that.

It was just really.

And you could also see, like, on her expressions, like, she's trying to be, you know, she's being professional, but at the same time, it's like, you can tell she's creeped out.

Yeah, it's.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you'll find most of those people are deep as a puddle.

And they have an example of that in the film when she's on that late night show.

Yeah.

And like, once again, like another character, this.

This man, and he's.

He's just like, tell us all this stuff.

And you know, that Elizabeth, like, every time I'm like, shut up.

But he's such a, like this, like this, like everybody's kind of cranked up.

Yes.

You know, so he's like the worst version of that kind of like late night slash, Entertainment Tonight kind of guy.

Which brings me to the ending, because I know that some people, like, are.

Are, you know, they have their own feelings.

I'll explain this.

What I like about the ending is, I think that it is literally an explosion, but it is also a.

All of a sudden this.

This version of her is now putting her anger outwards, not inwards.

After, after we have like, you know, the.

The termination that isn't quite completed because she still can't let go.