James kicks off Season 2 with guest Andy H., a 16-year sober actor, filmmaker, and pilot. They talk about staying sober in New York City, how discipline in acting and aviation mirrors spiritual practice, and why connection is the opposite of addiction.

Topics include: finding serenity in chaos, the role of meditation and accountability, and building a “war council” of sober supports. Andy shares his journey from underage drinking in Manhattan bodegas to a life grounded in service, creativity, and intention.

Book pick: The Power of Intention by Dr. Wayne Dyer

Disclaimer: This episode contains occasional adult language.

If you’re struggling: Pick up the phone before you pick up the bottle.

Oleum and welcome to season two of Path of the Sober Seeker, the space where

we explore recovery and personal growth through the lens of Islamic spirituality.

My name is James.

I'm an American Muslim, revert of recovering alcoholic and addict, and

I'm honored to share this journey with you and welcome to the show.

All right everyone.

I wanna thank our guest today.

We have Andy h, who I met recently during a trip to New York City.

Um, Andy, do you wanna go ahead and give our audience just a

quick little intro about yourself?

Hey, my name is Andy H no relation to James h uh, you got that man.

I almost made you do a spit take there almost.

Um, so, uh, yeah, I am.

Uh, I've been sober for almost 16 years, coming up on my, uh, anniversary.

I, I, we always like to say the, the stats.

The stats.

I, I got sober at 24, um, turned 40 this year, and, uh, getting ready to

celebrate 16 years on October 8th.

Um, and yeah, it's, uh.

Uh, I, I came to New York City to to act, um, went to multiple

acting conservatories, ended up going to film school as well.

And, uh, I'm currently in flight school.

Um, and just recently got my pilot's license in March and my instrument

rating, um, just last week.

And I'm working on my commercial license and hope to, uh, yeah, be.

Uh, you know, making films when I'm not flying.

So that's my elongated, uh, uh, intro.

And I also own my own product film production company.

Oh, that's amazing.

All right, well, I, I wanted to ask you, so you, were you sober

when you moved to New York City?

I was definitely not

sober Right.

When I moved.

I was gonna say, that's a hard city to stay sober in, man.

Like, I,

I, I mean, I, I think a lot of people do make that move, um, right.

Or, or pull geographic.

Right.

Um, if, if they are sober, I mean, it's, it's one of the mega cities, one

of the capitals of the world, you know?

Right.

And, um, I, uh, moved to the city when I was 18.

Um.

And, uh, I came to the city, um, to study acting at a pretty

prestigious acting conservatory.

And, uh, but.

Definitely at every opportunity I was looking for booze that I could buy,

uh, while being underage and for, and there was a game that I would play with

bodegas across the street from where I live, which is, um, I would show up.

Know on a Friday night, and I would, uh, I would set the six pack or

the, you know, 24 case on, on, you know, in front of this guy who's

behind like the bulletproof glass.

And then he would be like, uh, uh, I would be like, uh, here you go.

And I like start to pay for it.

And he is like, well, where's your id?

And I'm like, oh damn.

It's like across the street in my apartment building.

Um.

I can go get it, and I would leave this pause and kind of

like you could see the ellipse.

Right, right, right.

And I would like look at him and I'd be like, but I'm gonna go to a different

bodega and they're gonna sell it to me.

And he is like, okay.

Okay.

Just his time.

Just his time.

And so I would do that every Friday.

And then, um, and then there was a. There.

I lived on the Upper West Side, um, when I first moved to the city.

And, um, there was this, uh, grocery store called Pioneer, which is still open.

And, uh, they never carted me.

So once I realized that they never carted me, I started just going,

buying groceries, but mainly alcohol.

Right.

I would get, you know, I started to realize there was a problem when I would

buy, like the, they used to have a keg can for fosters beer and, uh, it was.

I, I mean, no offense to people who really enjoy fosters, I

think it's like piss water.

Um, and I, I, no offense to Australian.

I love Australian people and I work with a lot of Australians in the film world.

Um, but Fosters, I don't think represents them very well.

And I got this keg can, which was like.

Basically like a liter of beer.

And, um, I, I, I bought it and I brought it home and it was still warm from

the store, from being on the shelf.

It like wasn't in,

oh no, it

wasn't in the refrigeration.

And I had this, uh, cup, which was like a huge fucking plastic cup.

And I used to call it the, uh, the King's Cup 'cause it was like fucking massive.

And, uh, uh, apologies.

I'll, I'll.

I'll try not to cuss so much.

And um, and uh, I was drinking this warm piss beer and I realized I didn't

have any plans for the day and I was just gonna stay in my room and drink.

And that was kind of like, oh man, like this is not normal.

Was that like your moment of clarity when you're like, maybe I'm

drinking a little a alcoholically?

No, I was just like, I don't know.

Is this, is this just what like adults do?

Like they just like, right.

They drink by themselves and like they don't meet up with

friends and things like that.

And Oh man.

And um, that's,

um.

Wow.

You know, I, um, I, I, I, I met you at the, at the mustard seed.

Mm-hmm.

Um, just last week.

And one of the, I, I don't know if you were at that meeting, but someone said

something very profound that the, um, the opposite of addiction is connection.

And that's one of those things in like active addiction, like so

much we fall into this sense of just like, isolation, you know?

And what a weird experience to be in, especially someplace like New York City,

which is like, you know, millions of people stacked on top of each other.

And it's just, there's all these potential connections everywhere.

And there you are sitting in your apartment by yourself.

Of, you know, chugging warm beer.

It's itself, it's exactly one of those things.

It's pretty, I

I love that, uh, phrase that you said, and I totally agree.

There was a moment where I, I, I told myself that there was a

bear trap under my bed, and if I didn't leave my room and go out and

audition or look for a new, you know.

Cater waiter job or whatever.

Then I realized I would stay in my bed all morning and I would just get it stuck in

my thoughts and even in early sobriety, you know, they said like, you know,

practice the four s, which is meetings, movies, meditation, and masturbation.

Wow.

I would, I would get.

I would get stuck in the other three and not get out and get to a meeting and like,

you know, take my medicine, you know,

it's so wild to me.

Like we have, that's the thing was like, 'cause I, I got sober in Ohio

and we have such a different approach.

'cause our four, we have the four absolutes, which is honesty,

unselfishness love and purity.

And uh, there you are in New York doing the four m's, which is I. Awesome.

But you know, obviously it worked for you if you did it.

So what, what was your early sobriety like?

Because it is, you know, New York, there's a lot of, um, you can

find pretty much anything there.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so that level of temptation is there.

Was there like any crossover with, um, you know, I know that acting takes a certain.

You know, a high, actually a high degree of personal, um, discipline especially.

Mm-hmm.

How has, and I wanted to talk to you a little bit about how that discipline

has maybe trans, um, you know, either transferred or strengthened your

spiritual discipline working a program.

Um, so I think a accountability is like a big part

of that discipline, you know?

Um, so, um, going.

You know, going to multiple conservatories, I was given, um,

the tools, the tools were laid at my feet, much like, you know, the

spiritual, you know, work and the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.

You know, the, the tools were laid at my feet when I was working, what

was laid out to me by a sponsor in the big book, you know, and, uh.

You very, you know, very simply, there is a recipe to good acting as well as

there is a recipe to bad sobriety, right.

Or good sobriety.

And for me, I, I could relate, you know, um, that discipline that, you

know, you're asking me about as well as early sobriety, you know, early

sobriety was really challenging for me, uh, when it came to act like or

before I was sober because, uh, of.

I had to be accountable to time that I was wasting.

You kill a lot of time when you're drunk and when you're looking for drugs and

alcohol, you're killing all that time.

And meanwhile, every time you get fucked up, you're like, okay, I feel

better that that spiritual sickness, the hole is filled momentarily,

but then you're like, oh fuck, I should be out there auditioning.

I missed another, I missed my shot, you know?

Right.

And it's like, um.

But then once that time is available to you, 'cause you're

no longer getting fucked up.

I was, I was much more, um, accountable and I would show up to auditions,

but I had to face the fear, you know?

Right.

Courage isn't, isn't, uh, the, the absence of fear, but rather showing.

Right.

Regardless of that fear, you know, there was moments where I went into auditions

and I had just read a book called The War of Art, and it talked about how Henry

Fonda, he, every day he threw up before he went on, on stage, on, uh, for Broadway.

And it wasn't because of being drunk, it was nerves.

Right, right.

They say for actors, you know, before you get on stage, you're on set.

Your heart rate will jump to the heart rate of a pilot, a naval pilot, before

he gets catapulted off of the carrier.

Oh, wow.

You know, and, and it, I think it's in relation to what, how big

the spec spectacle you're doing.

Like if it's a Steven Spielberg movie, you're gonna get that feeling right.

If it's your community theater for the first time.

Maybe you'll get it the first time, maybe not so much.

But, um,

what is it like, if you have, like, I mean if, because you, I, I feel

like with film you get a little bit of a safety net because you have like retakes,

but if you're doing public speaking, like a lot of our listeners are, um, members

of AA obviously, and they lead meetings.

Mm-hmm.

And we get some meetings with hundreds and hundreds of people

and it's, it's nerve wracking.

'cause a lot of people, it's just an average drunk.

Mm-hmm.

They don't necessarily have a background in public speaking.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

Where, I mean, is it you actually have it, uh, you have a lot more,

um, like trepidation and stress going into a film situation versus

like a com, like a a stage situation where you don't get a retake?

Uh, I mean, they're, they're both, they have their own quirks, you

know, the Right, the good thing about live theater is you're getting live.

Feedback from the audience.

You're like, oh, right.

They're with me or they're not with me.

They're laughing at the jokes or they're not laughing at the jokes, right, right.

We're running long or we're, we're like, oh, wow.

Like we're, it's like snap, everything's crackle, pop, everything's happening.

Um, where they're

firing on all.

Cylinder.

Yeah.

Firing.

All right.

Right, right, right.

You're like,

oh, fuck, they're feeling it.

Maybe we'll get a standing ovation or maybe, we'll, shit, the bed in the

middle, you know, like, um, this is great.

Uh, but the, um, you know, film world, I mean.

The preparation still needs to be done.

You know, just like, I'll relate it back to the steps, like step one

is step one for a reason, right?

It's the foundation for everything, right?

The foundation for acting is know your lines, you know?

Right.

They said, they said for a lot of famous, uh, directors like Stanley Kubrick, who

like famously would do like a hundred takes with like Shelly Deval before

like The Shining, um, or, uh, in.

In moments of the Shining, and it like broke her and he's like,

you know, also it's the stress of being with, uh, a director.

You wanna hit the mark.

But at the same time it's like, well, um, do you know your lines?

You know?

And then back to sobriety, it's like, okay.

Do you wanna stay sober today?

Do you accept that you have a problem and that you're willing to acknowledge,

you know, and, and have that surrender?

And now, now we have a basis of doing something.

If you know your lines, then now you can make choices.

Now you can be in the moment.

But that's the, that's the step one of acting.

That's true.

Well, a big part of it is like you have to go, I mean,

'cause there's a lot of people who are still in active addiction.

It, step one, there's actually a bar near where I live in Ohio where they

will give you a free drink if you go in and put an AA chip on the, on the bar.

Oh fuck.

On top.

Like we have free drink.

There's a lot of people in there that just don't care.

Like they laugh about it and it's like they joke around about being

a high functioning alcoholic while they're drinking away.

And it's um, and I know that, 'cause I was one of those people for a

while, long time before I got.

Sober again.

And it's, um, you know, so for me, I didn't really start, um, you know,

'cause the steps, it's a, uh, the point of the steps isn't to get sober.

The point of the steps is to have that spiritual awakening and

sobriety is the price of admission.

You know, we get sober first, but step one's the only one that mentions alcohol.

Um, so when you step, you know, step two, coming to believe in

that power greater than yourself.

Turning everything over to, um, you know, the will of Allah or God or

whatever the power, you know, higher power of your understanding is.

It's where it really starts to, um, you know, the rubber hits the road.

Um, so I, I wanted to ask you, how did your, um, you know, 'cause obviously

working the steps, everyone's, um, sp view of spirituality and their relationship

with their higher power grows and evolves.

How has that gone with you?

Um mm-hmm.

You know, as far as a, you know, we're weaving acting into that

with your spiritual practice.

Um.

So I would say, uh, it's, it's definitely grown.

Um, both, you know, my spirit, my, you know, I would say, you know, if

I was talking to my, my sponsee, I would say everything grows in relation

to your spiritual life, you know?

Right.

And when the spiritual bank account is full, your actual bank account gets full.

Oh, is it, is it odd or is it god?

You know?

Right, right, right.

I always say that I love that.

It's like if your, if your spirit is, is full, your art

is probably gonna be better.

And I will say this, I, when I just, before I got sober, so,

uh, I'll, I'll put this in there.

You know, I met a. Woman, I chased a woman into the rooms who had

been sober for almost 10 years.

And I, uh, I met her on a, a dating site and I, uh, she was like,

Hey, we're just gonna get tea.

And I was like, okay, I like tea.

You know, like for me, I thought we were talking like code, you know, for

like having sex or whatever, right?

And um, and then eventually, yeah, we did just get tea.

We actually talked, had really great conversations, and I found out about.

What her spiritual practice was, and I got really interested.

Um, but like I came into the rooms already practicing meditation.

And the day that I really focused, I, I really knew that I wanted to stop.

I was on the way to a 10 day meditation retreat and I, through the joint that

I was smoking out of the window on the way to this 10 day meditation retreat.

And then after the moment it went out the window, I was like.

Fuck.

Right.

I was like, why did I do that?

You know?

And, and um, I feel like, um, you know, uh, just, you know, to wrap

it up is, uh, for this particular question, it's just, um, your spirit.

Is, you know, that it, it's all off that soul sickness that you're talking about.

And I agree.

You know, we're, we're here for the spiritual experience and we get,

um, you know, for me it's not, it's not just like one God in particular.

It's a universal outlet.

That has many names and for me, I get to enjoy all of those names

because of this program, you know?

Right.

I, I grew up as a Christian, um, but you know, I get to do a lunch line

mentality 'cause to take a little bit of every religion that I like and Right.

I get to, you know, I get to practice and see the many faces of God,

but the one face for me is love.

That

is it.

Absolutely Right.

Well that's another, I guess that's another positive aspect

of living in New York City.

'cause you have a literal melting pot of pretty much every culture on the planet.

I mean, you can have a, uh, you know, synagogue literally

a block away from a mji.

Uh, but there could be a Hindu temple, like another block away from that.

And there's just so many different spiritual traditions

all in the same place.

Um, so I did notice quite a bit of, um, spiritual diversity at the

different meetings and whatnot I went to, which is freaking awesome.

You know, and you're absolutely right.

Um, I did wanna touch on something you said about how, um, when your

heart is full, your art is full, which is, you know, I think that's such a

beautiful thing because there's so much of, um, you know, so many things

in our culture especially apply to like, thought, thought and thinking.

Um, and things like creativity that comes from the heart, but the heart

is being taken out of a lot of things take, like, um, education for example.

Um, art classes are being cut.

Um, you know, and even.

Forms of like masculine creativity, like, um, shop classes, you know,

building things like that are being cut in favor of state mandating

testing, which all applies to the head.

Mm-hmm.

And none of that sings to, um, you know, no one looks at a spreadsheet

and it fills their heart with joy versus, you know, looking at like,

you know, looking at, it's up the

accountant.

Right?

The accountant.

Right.

But no one's gonna look at.

And be like, oh, this is freaking, you know, fills my heart with joy.

Um, and no one's gonna be moved to, you know, move as opposed to listening

to like a beautiful piece of music or looking at a beautiful piece of art

that is gonna call to their heart.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so that's a really interesting point because like when your heart is full

and you're doing the will of your higher power, um, and it is always, you know,

and you're right, it always comes down to taking the most loving choice in anything.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

My mom was a, um, my mom passed away in, um, 2011.

She was sober for 17 years when she passed.

And she was, um, she would always tell me, GS, you need to pick,

always choose the most loving option.

Whenever you're faced with a dilemma, always choose love.

Um, and that's a really beautiful thing when you brought that up about, um, that's

how your higher power speaks with you.

Yeah.

Which is.

I also would just throw in there like, um, one, there's a couple things

that, you know, uh, I like, uh, the Odin, uh, like, uh, the old Viking and

Norse traditions, and they talk about truth being, you know, the moir, the.

Uh, and truth is so important in the steps, you know, truth with yourself,

actually seeing what is act, you know, you brought it back to, uh, the

meeting the other day of acceptance.

Right.

You know, and, and, but it truth could also, you know, if it's

untempered, it can be very cutting.

And it needs to be a loving truth.

Well, you know, it has needs to have compassion in there.

Well, honesty without compassion

is brutality.

Yeah.

So you have to do that.

But then again, you can't be too, especially because we're, we're

recovering addicts, you know?

And an addict is nothing more than an experienced escape artist.

So sometimes.

No, I mean, so sometimes like if it's a sponsee or someone who's

being like particularly stubborn or trying to work angles or do different

things, uh, you have to kind of cross that threshold into tough love.

Mm-hmm.

You know, where you do add a little, maybe a little bit more honesty

and a little bit less compassion.

Mm-hmm.

Um, which is, you know, I kind of needed that.

It's, you know, at various times where I need to be.

You know, you need to realize like, Hey, play the tape through.

If you continue on this, on this path, it's not gonna end well for you.

Yeah.

Um, and, and you know, we talk about that the vigorous program,

you know, vigorous self honest.

And, um, it even says that in our daily readings, the, um, you on

the people who fail are people cannot or will not, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And can't pray or constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and that's the thing is if we're a, you know, uh, we're used to BSing

the world around us, but when we get to the point where we're BSing ourselves.

Especially to, um, you know, justify our addiction.

Mm-hmm.

And that's one thing we talk about in our meetings.

We call that mental masturbation.

You know, that level of like, you know, that level of like

self-justification because we can talk ourselves in and out of anything.

And how many drunks have had to explain, you're like, oh, well it seemed like a

good thing to do at the time, your Honor.

You know, um, because it's, so, I, it just seems, because we do have

that twisted, twisted thinking, but it's all up there in our head.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I just wanted to bring that back to your point about having our heart full.

Mm-hmm.

Because, um, you know, we could do something where our head is

trying to get us in trouble.

Our heart is gonna remain in alignment with our heart, higher power,

and is gonna keep us out of that.

You know, keep us on that straight path.

Well, the, the next right action, you know, that we come back to it, it

has to have that element of compassion and, and, uh, you know, uh, God's

will or your higher power's will is usually not, sometimes, sometimes it's

gray, sometimes it's black and white, but it has an element of positivity.

Right.

Almost always, you know?

Right.

It's God's will is not always like, you know, go get vengeance, kill that person,

you know?

Yeah.

Uh, not, yes.

Uh, every now and then it's, I I try to, I, I try to avoid the gray areas.

'cause especially when I was in active addiction, I was very guilty of doing

the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, I heard a, uh, comedian talk about one time that an addict

is someone who will, um, steal your car and then help you look for it.

Um, because it's like, no, think about it.

'cause it's like, I think of times where I was trying to work angles

or being, you know, acting very manipulative in things, doing the

right thing, you know, on the surface, but I was still had my own agenda.

Yeah.

Um, and that's one thing with, um, especially getting into later sobriety,

like I really start to look at my motive.

With things,

your intentions.

Yeah.

Right.

Exactly.

Um, and that's the thing in Islam, like Allah judges us on our intentions.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so it's very, very important that I make sure that my

heart is in the right place.

'cause it is really, really easy to do, um, to do the right

thing for the wrong reasons.

At the same time, uh, we could use that justification to do the

wrong thing for the right reasons.

Mm-hmm.

And I've heard a lot of, um, and a lot of people will get into that, uh, you know,

morality versus legal or legality debate.

Like, if your family's starving, is it appropriate to steal a loaf

of bread to feed your family?

And you're stealing yet at the same time you're feeding your family and

it, um, but it's, I, I feel like when it comes to things like morality,

you could split hairs all day.

Mm. You know, um, the thing is, is it has to co, you know, if you're doing

the right action from your heart mm-hmm.

And your intention is correct, then you are, you know, then you're correct.

I like to bring it back to, you know, in sobriety, um, if, if

your spiritual armor is on, right?

If you've gone to, if you've gone to a meeting, if you're talking to your,

your sponsees, your sponsor, you're checking in with your war council

of other alcoholics War council.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that.

I mean, my, my, my Sponsee calls it.

Team, you know?

Right.

And then your intent is right.

You can truly go anywhere in the world.

Right.

You know, um, you can walk, you could, like, I used to serve, I used to be a

bartender in, in sobriety, you know, working as a cater waiter in between

auditions and, uh, I had, I was, I, I was.

Thankful that, you know, my higher power had relieved the, you know, my,

my craving for alco, my alcoholism.

Right.

You know, and it was about, um.

It was, yeah, it was, it was about, it was about, um, you know,

being of service to other people.

And so my intent was right.

And I usually would start my day and end it with a meeting,

so that always helped too.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I love, I love that the, um, yeah, I heard that, that's another thing I heard at the

mustard seed with taking the, a meeting, the day with the meeting instead of, uh,

you know, bringing your, you know, um, I'm sorry, bringing your meeting to the

day instead of the day to the meeting.

Mm.

Um, which is

really No, that's good.

I was actually at my, um, I was at a meeting this morning.

We, I do a 7:00 AM one here in the, uh, Cleveland area.

It's every day we do the daily reflections and um, it was good to do that.

I was looking at the clock at seven 30 though.

I'm like, yeah, those mustard seed guys are getting started right about now, man.

I'm like, do it.

It's, um, you know, it's funny, one of my, um.

The, uh, I was talking with my sponsor about this, that the

longest, uh, record that anyone has ever stayed sober is 24 hours.

Mm-hmm.

And the big book, it talks about that, that, uh, you know, the only thing

we're guaranteed is that, you know, the, uh, daily reprieve contingent on the

maintenance of our spiritual condition.

And that's part of that, you know, the, the prayer, the

meditation, going to meetings.

Um, in meetings, that's such an important aspect of recovery because that's the

action, you know, you actually have to get up and go somewhere to go to a

meeting, and it, well, I guess in the tech age you could zoom, you know, go

to a zoom call meeting or something, but at the same time, it requires

a degree of action on your part.

Um, prayer, it's action to a lesser degree.

Uh, meditation is pretty much.

Sitting there, it's pretty passive.

Uh, but doing the action of actually getting up out of your comfort zone, like

you mentioned, being in your apartment, you know, isolating, drinking by

yourself, getting out and going somewhere.

Mm-hmm.

It's a, uh, you know, it's a major action and that's how you get

stuff, you know, get stuff moving.

Yeah.

The, the prison can be.

In your mind.

Right?

Um, but it could also be your physical apartment or house that you feel safe in.

You know, I've had, I've had moments where, um, yeah, that bear trap

technique that I talk about, I also use it for sober activities.

Like, I'm like, I'm gonna do five minutes of meditation, but then I get stuck.

That meditation because I enjoy the benefits and that prayer.

And so next thing you know that 15 minutes becomes 20, that 20 becomes 30.

That 30 becomes an hour.

Right.

You know, and, and, um, yeah, it's the discipline.

You know, it, it bears fruit.

Uh, one, this meditation teacher I listen to, he is like, if you want, if

you want negative, if you want bitter fruit, you, you plant negative ideas.

If you want, if you want, if you want positive things in your life, you,

you plant positive things, right?

Who's the, uh, who's the teacher?

Um, his name is, uh, Ginga and it's, uh, Vipasana.

Okay.

And so it's non, uh, it's.

It's not associated with any religion.

Okay.

And, uh, yeah.

Alright.

I'm gonna ask you for the, uh, the spelling of that later.

I'll put it in the show notes.

So anyone out there who wants to, you know, pursue this, we'll have it in

the, uh, the show notes for the episode.

Um, that's absolutely fantastic.

So what, what I wanted to ask you about is the, um, so like when you

were, when you were setting up your personal spiritual framework mm-hmm.

Okay.

Um, how did that defer to where you are now in later sobriety versus

where you are in early sobriety?

So, um, in early sobriety it was about taking my medicine

and starting out the day.

Early on, I would book in my days with meetings, right?

Um, I would go to a meeting, uh, before I worked my restaurant job,

and then after the restaurant job, I would go to another meeting and

I would be exhausted afterwards.

Some, sometimes I would work, you know, when you're 20 or something, you.

Think that you have unlimited energy.

So I would work like three jobs because I didn't have a girlfriend.

I lived in a shit apart apartment.

And so I'd be like, oh, I'll do, um, I'll do construction in the morning.

I'll do restaurant in the during the day, and then I'll go to another restaurant

job and then, you know, in between, right.

I would, you know, sobriety was my primary purpose.

And so, um, I. Uh, that's how it was in the beginning, and

I really set the foundation right, talking about the recipe.

The recipe is going to meetings, you know, working the big book

with, uh, um, you know, a sponsor.

And then once you make it through the steps to, you know, help others, you

know, extend the hand of AA and, and prayer meditation to continue that growth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so like.

For me, like what I am doing today, man, my day is full, right?

So I have to make time for the meetings, and so in the morning I will.

I'll usually, like, I'll meditate and I will think I'll, I'll still

try and plan out those meetings.

Um, whether it, if it's like a Zoom meeting, I've kind of been cheating.

Uh, I've been doing Zoom meetings.

I, I drive a hundred miles a day to flight school right now, and

so I'll put a Zoom meeting on.

Right.

And most of, most of the time they won't call me and I'll be in the car and I'll

just be focusing on driving, but I'll get, I'll get to hear a good qualification.

And I, here's a hack, a hack that some people don't really do as much.

Um, but, so there's these, uh, tapes called the Joe and Charlie Tapes.

I'm sure you've heard of 'em, right?

Oh, of course.

Yeah.

And so I downloaded them to iTunes in early sobriety, and I

would put my music on shuffle.

And next thing you know, I would be jamming out to a tune.

And then next one would be Joe or Charlie coming.

All right, step.

Alright, everyone, settle down.

Step four.

Yes.

I'm like, okay, all right, I'm gonna get a meeting.

I didn't plan it.

And I'm on the subway, I'm riding my bike.

And that was a great hack because it kept me like dialed in and you know,

they're talking the language of the heart.

I'd be on a plane trip and all of a sudden I'd be like, all right,

this is my meeting for right now.

You know?

Right.

And so.

Um, I check in with my spon every day.

Um, we do a little voice note to each other, um, that we send

via on, uh, on Apple phones.

It's just like a quick little soundbite right back and forth.

And, um, and then I talk to my sponsor probably like once or twice

a month, and I run into him at meetings, so I try and stay locked in.

But meditation is really how I kind of.

Carry myself between the meetings and I pray continuously.

Right?

All the time.

Especially in, especially in flight school.

Oh, right.

I'll, I also, I like this little hack.

Um.

The other hack is like, you pretend that you're tying your shoe and then

you go down to one knee and then you like futz with your, you know,

tying your, tying your shoelace.

But really you, you know, say that prayer.

And for me, the seven step prayer, uh, I love it.

'cause every time I put it on, I get a. Visceral feeling like I'm putting

on like, you know, I don't know if you played football or anything or,

or like, I played rugby and football and all these contact sports.

'cause I was trying to, you know, prove something when I was a young man.

But like when I put, when I say the seven, seven step prayer or even the

third step, I feel like I'm putting on my pads and I'm like, alright,

let's go do a good, a good deed today.

You know, like, let's not be let, let's not be an angel in the meeting

and then a devil in the streets.

Right.

That's, that's common, man.

But that's, you mentioned that earlier as far as like putting on your armor of God.

So it's like that metaphorical spiritual armor.

Um, let me ask you about meditation real quick.

'cause you've mentioned that several times.

Um, with, um, you know, being in an environment like New York

City, obviously there's a lot of moving parts all the time.

Um, so when you, uh, it sounds like you have to take that conscious, I,

it'll make a conscious effort to be able to unplug from all of that and

plug into that sense of serenity.

Yeah.

Um.

So, um, when, when we were talking about this, this podcast, you, you had made an

analogy that it is kind of worked on me.

Um, yeah.

I mean, the city is a storm, you know, right.

And, uh, I would call it a vortex.

It's a, it's a spiritual vortex where like it's a nexus point man.

It's a nexus point.

You have to, you have to ride above the storm.

You know, when, when they do imagery of the hurricanes, they can't fly

directly through the hurricanes.

You gotta be like 35, 40,000 feet, you know, to

get to the calm and the side in the eye man, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so if we're locked in, then you don't feel the undertow of the city.

You could be anywhere in the world, you could be in.

Dayton, Ohio, you know?

Right.

You could be, you could be, um, you could be in la you could be in Japan,

and you get to float from that 30,000 foot view and kind of look down and

be like, I get to do this today.

I get to do that today.

Beautiful.

You know, this is, this is a gift to sobriety.

What I, and then look for opportunities to help other people, like, you know,

that lady crossing the street or whatever, or I, I like, I like holding

doors for people and never telling about it, you know, because like Right.

That is like, okay, I put one little dollar in my spiritual bucket, you know?

Um, but to you said, um, I don't know if that answered your question there.

I kind of rambled on.

No, it's okay.

No, it's awesome actually.

And there are so many opportunities for, um, you know, you know, to do things

like that, especially in the city.

So many good deeds that need to be done.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And, um, I mean, in the city, uh, uh, I actually said this to you, uh, new

Yorkers love to, um, uh, they, they love to give directions despite what, you

know, the eighties and nineties movies.

It's, uh, will have you believe where like you go up to someone, they're.

Screw you.

Why are you talking to me?

You know, give me money.

It's like, uh, in, in, uh, in, in New York, really?

If they see someone who's a brand new tourist and you're

like, Hey, I'm sorry I'm lost.

They'll be like, oh yeah, sure thing.

You need to go down the queue.

Um.

So when I was in the, uh, when I was in the city last week, I had, uh, so

many people were, uh, you know, New York City obviously has a reputation.

People being rude, people being mean, um, saying all the,

you know, all these things.

And it was the exact opposite of what I experienced.

I met some of the coolest freaking people.

Um, and it's like, I. Uh, you could tell if someone's like, either high or, you

know, they're messing around and whatnot.

And I was kind, kind of was able to know who to avoid eye contact

with and who I could mm-hmm.

You know, engage with freely.

Uh, but for the most part, people were real, real cool, um, you know,

helping me out with the subway directions, pretty much anything.

Um, and I met some, some very, very friendly people, which is again,

was the exact opposite of the reputation that New York City has.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, um, new New York will surprise you multiple different ways.

Um, I was raised in North Carolina, um, and born in Germany.

Um, and the thing about New York is there are characters, just like all

the other mega cities of the world.

There are characters all over the place.

Um, but um, with New York, I mean they, um.

Um, you get surprised.

There's a lot of really nice people and people who are willing to just help.

Like, I mean, I've fallen on my bike, you know, and then people have come

over and it's, it's a community.

Just think of it this way, like, um, if you lived in an off, like my dad's from

a small town in Ohio, uh, Ohio, maybe you've heard of it, called Ada Ohio.

And I'm from a small town called Apex, North Carolina, and my mom's from a small

town called, uh, Missoula or uh, uh, Stevensville, Montana, where everyone

knows your name, type of Cheers action.

Where like, of course they're gonna help you because you know exactly where

they live and everyone's talking gossip.

But in New York.

All those towns are just squished together.

It's like 20 towns on top of each other.

Right.

Like the different neighborhoods.

Yeah.

And different neighborhoods.

And so like, you can't remember all the faces, but there is a kind of

sentiment of like, well, yeah, I'm gonna help you if you're in need.

I mean, we're human, you know?

Right.

But as, as alcoholics, um, I wanna get mine.

You know, it's a rat race.

You know, I, I, I feel like, uh, I feel like.

If you're nameless and faceless in a car, yeah, you're gonna

see the New York mentality.

You think you, you got on on those eighties and nineties movies, right?

You know?

But when you're face-to-face, as long as you're not pushing your way through

Times Square, most people are pretty cool.

It was, yeah, I, I, I could see it.

It's, um, I did love the sense of like, anonymity though.

It's like the thing with, 'cause those things in the small towns,

it's a double-edged sword.

Like, yeah, everyone knows your name, but also everyone's up in your business.

A hundred percent.

You know, everyone's up in your business and I've never, uh, I think one of

the things I love about New York is it's that sense of like, no one cares.

You know, there's a, um, well, it, it's not, it, it's, you know, there's a,

um, the word for it is sonder, where everyone, like, literally everyone,

you know, is living a life that is just as de they have just as detailed.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and as intensive an inner world as you do, um, and every,

everyone's a main character, right?

No one's.

Right, exactly.

Um, and I see that a lot in, in New York 'cause it's like a lot of people walking

around, they all have their headphones in, they're all listening to their own music,

their own whatever they're listening to.

They're in their own own space.

You know, I've seen it in the, everyone on the subway with a thousand yard stare.

You know, just looking off into, you know, and it's like, okay, this is like

really, it, it really was a sense of, um.

Uh, uh, a sense of anonymity, which I, um mm-hmm.

Find, find interesting.

'cause if you tie it back to the, um, uh, you know, with Alcoholics Anonymous,

they talk about anonymity's a spiritual foundation of all of the traditions.

So there is that sense of, uh, you know, spirituality and getting lost in a crowd.

Um, which was beau it was almost freeing, you know, it was very, very, mm-hmm.

Very beautiful.

It was very, a very beautiful feeling, um, to, to be able to see

that, um, yeah, I mean, to have.

Uh, back to acting.

We, we, you had to get trained to live, to live as you would

privately in a public space, right?

And in, in New York, uh, I think that's hilarious about the thousand yard stare.

I mean, you have to have, um, a sense of protection to be able to go into

yourself that deep, you know, because if you, um, when you hear about other.

Communities like, uh, Eastern Culture.

With the Chinese, and especially Japanese or Korean, they have

literal social masks, right?

Like there's what you have with your, with your family, with your

lover, with the public, and then like with your business, and each one of

those are layered in a certain way.

And New York, we just probably have three.

You know, like what, you know, but there's, um, but yeah.

Uh, anon anonymity.

Like, think about this, like in those mega cities like, uh, like New York and,

um, when, uh, there were the, the groups, um, that were getting together, um,

the Oxford groups that were practicing radical Christian beliefs, which really.

They all, um, you know, they all extrapolate and, um, are aligned with

other spiritual values of all the other faiths, you know, but like, um.

When they started doing AA meetings, it would be like they would have a

little latch and they would look, they would see if they noticed the

person or if they knew who that was.

And if they didn't know who it was, they wouldn't unlock the door.

They wouldn't let you into the AA room.

It would be like the speakeasy.

Yeah, speak.

I was gonna say the speakeasy.

Yeah.

They would take, they would, because they would take that same mentality of

like the secrecy of drinking into aa.

Now look at today, where all these.

You know, for better or worse.

People who aren't practicing the tradition of anonymity and, uh, TV and

film and everything, and when there's really famous people that it, you

know, live their lives as a sober and sometimes non sober individual, right.

Public, you know, um, but it, it does give a, it, it makes it more sexy sometimes

when you hear someone like Brad Pitt being like, you know, openly sober.

For, however, for long he's been sober.

Well, I mean, statistically people are drinking a lot less, uh, but

other substances are always, you know, you know, always being used.

And we, what do we talk?

We call, you know, anything that takes you outta yourself or mood, my, you know,

I, um, I try to shy, shy away from the, um, the mood and mind altering substance.

Mm-hmm.

Explanation because half the people I, at least I know in

admire, they smoke with cigarettes.

And it's like, you take away your cigarettes for half a day, just

half a day, and tell me that's not gonna affect your mood.

Tell me that nicotine's not a mood or, or this coffee that you

and I are enjoying right now.

Right.

I can't, dude, I will freely admit that I am addicted to caffeine.

I just, it's just is what it is.

It's.

Stick for the law.

Love, forgive me.

But it, it is what it is, man.

I'm very, I, I I am, you know, I need, I need my caffeine.

Yeah.

Morning, noon and night, man.

It's, um, straight to the veins.

It's, it's wild.

Alright, well I wanna, uh, kind of change gears here a little bit if

you want to, um, you know, we have a lot of listeners that are, uh, you

know, people with early sobriety, late sobriety, however you wanna look at it.

Uh, I, I feel like with your.

Program, you have a lot of experience staying sober in a chaotic

environment, obviously New York City.

Mm-hmm.

Do you have any, you know, wisdom you could share with anyone or advice for

anyone who might be, uh, maybe not necessarily like the city environment,

but dealing with those chaotic moments?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and how to maintain serenity.

So, um, I would relate it to, um, someone who has, she's broken her own

anonymity, but she wrote this, um, this book, um, and she talked about,

you know, creating a bullet point of, uh, people who give you energy.

You know, do like we talked about your inner circle.

I call it my war council, right?

And I start with those three people that like they know every intimate

detail about me, and they're gonna be honest about what God's will

actually probably is when I want.

To skew it my own way, they're gonna be rigorously honest and they're gonna be

like, Andy, do you really think you're, you're higher power wants you to quit

your job and move to fucking wherever.

Um, and so and say that group consciousness, I mean that group Exactly.

That's how you, it's, it's really helpful 'cause they help you see your blind spot.

Right, right.

We all have those blind spots.

Um, so I think that really helps minimize the chaos.

Having a really strong tribe that you create for yourself in New

York, we definitely have to do that.

Um, and it could be anywhere, like say you're, you have a military background

and you have to trust your squad before you can trust your unit, before you

can trust, you know, the brigade, you know, level, you know, and, um,

because the problems extrapolate.

Other than that, like I would say like, you know, to minimize chaos,

you gotta get real simple, you know, bring it back to your budget.

You know, like if you are living outside your means, you gotta go

back to what do I really need?

You know, we need meetings.

We need to talk to other alcoholics.

We need to pay the bills.

So maybe you should show up on time for work, right?

And then maybe, maybe you should eat a good meal so that you feel well.

Um, I love, there's this one girl that says like, treat yourself

like a race car, like a Ferrari.

Give yourself really good high octane foods and get eight hours of sleep.

And then each day, like you said, it's only a 24 hour reprieve.

So if you start real small, you could.

Build a lot.

You know, I, I also love the mentality of like, get 1% better every day.

And I would say that in the chaos, you're more likely to get depressed when

you're not moving forward, you know?

Right.

Uh, and if you.

You don't feel like you're, you're improving yourself

or helping other people.

That's when I get depressed, that's when I get in my head

and I have to get into action.

So, um, and, and then yeah, stay, there's this amazing prayer I want

to, um, uh, give a shout out to.

It's called the Deda.

Um.

Uh, Des Ada Prayer, uh, and it's a poem by Max Erman and they read

it, uh, in the AA meetings in Holland, um, especially Amsterdam.

And that is kind of like, uh, instead of reading the promises,

they'll read this Deda prayer.

And one of the phrases in it is, um, uh.

Stay, stay away from, um, I naturally stay away from, uh, um, vexatious people.

And I would also include, you know, places where it's gonna, uh,

it's, I don't think it's Max Erman and I think that's another book.

Um, but, um.

I'll send it to you.

And yeah, I think same way from Vexatious people, people who are energy

vampires from you and, um, people who, and you know, it's your life.

You know, like create a list of 10 things that, uh, give you love and

joy and then try and do those 10 things as soon as possible every day.

That's amazing.

That's absolutely beautiful.

Yeah.

I, um.

That's a lot to take in.

You know, it's really easy to, uh, you know, it is, you know, we talk about,

you know, basic things, especially in early sobriety, you know, sober people,

sober places, sober things, and I guess that insinuates, you know, you're

doing your 90 meetings in 90 days.

Um, you're around people who have that strong relationship with their higher

power, working a healthy program.

Um, but there still has to be a degree of discernment because there are, you know,

there are negative people in the rooms.

You know, there are people who are those negative vampires who, uh, you know, the

energy vampires will try to suck you into their, um, you know, to their nonsense,

you know, and it's, um, and sometimes we get sucked into our own nonsense.

Like we could be our own energy vampire.

Um, I struggle with that sometimes.

Like I love a, um, you know, like any good drunk, I love a

good pity party, you know, I do.

I, I do man.

I love it if we allow and it can be a luxury, you know, I allow myself

like that luxury of self pity.

And it is, um, you know, it's very, very dangerous.

It's a very slippery slope.

Uh, pour me, pour me, pour me a drink.

Pour me a drink.

Right?

Yeah.

It's, um, um.

I just wanna throw in there.

So I'm gonna read this phrase from the actual poem.

Um, it says, go placidly among, uh, am amid the noise and haste.

And remember what peace there may be in silence as far as

possible without surrender.

Be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly, and listen to others,

and even to the dull and ignorant.

They too, have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons.

They are vexatious.

To the spirit and I'll just, uh, and there's a lot more, but like Wow.

So much in those nuggets, right?

Right.

And that is kind of New York, right?

If there's a guy who's peeing in the corner on the subway, there are some

people who are sicker than others.

Maybe you should go to a different car in the subway.

Right.

And in your life, if you see someone, I saw someone swerving on the road

on the highway the other day and it was Labor Day weekend, and I.

Decided I was gonna get out of his way and I was gonna, you know, I, I

was gonna pray for that individual.

Right.

Pray for them.

Yeah.

It's, um, there's a lot of good reminders.

Like I was walking around the city last week and there was so

many, um, lot of people passed out drunk, sleeping on sidewalks.

And that's, that to me is a reminder.

I'm like, you know that, you know, there, but for the grace of God, go, I. Mm-hmm.

And it's a good reminder because I am.

You know, like most of us, I am literally one drink away from that.

You know, it might not happen overnight, but, um, you know, this is a progressive

disease and it is, you know, I've been homeless in the past and it is,

you know, it's entirely possible.

That's still waiting for me.

It's still waiting for all of us.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know that, that car swerving on the highway, that's your

one drink away from that.

Yeah.

It's all, it's all a yet, and I'll say this, I, there's a buddy of mine who.

Um, he is not a member of this group, and, and I tru, I firmly

believe that we all need to diagnose our own selves to your own self.

You know, have that, that surrender, that, that acceptance.

Um, but he was.

Living, uh, he did uh, three tours in Afghanistan and he came back and he was

doing the, the cocaine and taco Bell diet right for multiple months, and he spent

all of his hazard pay going to strip clubs, taco Bell and living homeless.

You know, and like, wow, like, you know, that's all a yet, you know?

Right.

Who knows if you're gonna cash out your 401k and then just try

and kill yourself with a bottle?

You don't know.

It's, it's waiting for all of us, you know, and the only thing, again, we

have that daily reprieve, and the way we avoid that is that maintenance of

that spiritual condition, you know, the prayer, meditation, staying that,

that conscious contact, you know, that we're always trying to, um,

that we're always trying to strive.

For.

Alright, Mr. Andy, listen, we're coming to just about the end of our time

for the, uh, for the podcast today.

Um, one of the things I do, uh, we do here on path to the Sober seekers, I

always ask for a book recommendation from my, you know, from the guests.

Mm-hmm.

So, do you have anything you've been reading lately?

Maybe anything that's been, you know, inspiring you?

Anything you wanna share?

Yeah.

Um, I'm going to say that this, uh, particular gentleman, he planted the

seed when I was not ready to get sober.

And, uh, his name is, uh, Dr. Wayne Dyer.

He's no longer with us.

Um.

Uh, and he, uh, has a book called The Power of Intention and, uh, back.

And, um, it's not related to any religion really.

It's about just kind of, you know, seeking your own true, true purpose.

Um, but he talks about, you know, the power of meditation,

about how we can always.

Connect to God to higher power at any moment.

And he also talks about, you know, like some, uh, we talked

about the power of intention.

You know, uh, we are all walking liabilities, but if you're spiritually

fit and your intentions are in good alignment, you can go anywhere.

But also with the power of intention, you can create.

And you could do things that you never dreamed were possible.

I would say that everyone, including myself, even with my 16 years of

sobriety, um, my idea of what, uh, I need and what my goals are in life

are nothing in comparison to what your higher power and your his goals are

for you or, or its goals are for you.

Right.

Um, and I would say.

You know, a thimbleful willingness gets a lot.

And I would say that this book really set and, and I, I read it in, in college and

I listened to the audio book and, um, as well, and man, he was a very compassionate

man, but he, he gave me, you know, this.

Little jewel to, to, to start to seize some of my dreams first as an actor and

then eventually as a, uh, camera guy and owning my own, uh, production company,

and now as a licensed pilot and, and being in, in flight school, ma Shallah.

Awesome.

That's, that's absolutely amazing.

Alright, Andy, it's been an absolute honor and pleasure to have you on today.

Thank you so much.

Um, to all of our listeners, anyone out there, if you're struggling,

please, please, please pick up the phone before you pick up the bottle.

You know, make a good decision.

Call, talk to someone before you pick up.

Um, thank you again for tuning into another episode of Path

of the Sober Seeker and Insha.

Allah will be back next week with another guest.

Thank you everyone.

Have a wonderful day.