It’s me, Mark Stone, and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I’m joined once again by Ruben Verdes, an authority on Rolls-Royce and Bentley, as we turn our attention to the fascinating world of classic car concours, judging and the preservation of automotive history.

In the second part of our conversation, Ruben shares his extensive experience as a concours judge and vehicle valuer, explaining what really happens behind the scenes at some of America's most prestigious classic car events. We discuss the differences between British and American car culture, why the United States has such a thriving concours scene and what makes these gatherings so important to collectors and enthusiasts.

Ruben takes me through the judging process, from the initial practical checks to the detailed examination of originality, authenticity, condition and presentation. We explore how judges reach their decisions, why accurate provenance matters and the lengths organisers go to in ensuring that cars are genuinely what their owners claim them to be.

We also discuss the considerable influence that winning a major concours can have on a car's reputation and value, alongside some of the remarkable vehicles and personalities Ruben has encountered over the years.

Beyond the prestigious competitions, Ruben reflects on the wider American classic car scene, from major national events to local cars-and-coffee gatherings, and explains why both have an important role in keeping enthusiasm for historic vehicles alive.

Above all, this is a conversation about the responsibility that comes with owning and preserving significant cars. Ruben believes these machines should be seen, enjoyed and appreciated rather than hidden away in private collections, ensuring future generations have the opportunity to experience motoring history for themselves.

It's another fascinating insight into the world of Rolls-Royce, Bentley and classic car collecting, and a reminder that preserving automotive heritage is about much more than simply keeping old cars in immaculate condition.

I'd like to welcome back to the backseat driver, Reuben Verdez.

In the first part of our chat, we spoke extensively about Rolls Royce and Bentley, a make and model of car that Ruben is passionate about, even though unfortunately, the moment he doesn't actually own one.

But I get the distinct feeling that will soon, it will be rectified in the near future.

But besides his passion for Rolls Royce, and of course he was the president of the Rolls Royce Owners Club and treasurer of the Rolls Royce Foundation, Rubin is also a valuer and acquirer of cars on behalf of clients.

He is, shall we say, a serious member of the Classic Car Club of America and the Society of Automotive Historians, contributing editor to the Flying lady publication of the Rolls Royce Owners Club and a judge some of the most prestigious American concourse events, including Amelia Island, Cavallino Classic, Sports Sunday, the Delray beach concourse, the Greenbrier Concourse, Palm Beach, pebble beach, and Radnor Hunt.

Reuben, welcome back.

Thank you, Mark.

It's a pleasure to be here again and I'm looking forward to our chat.

May I say just very quickly, I used to be the contributing editor for many years for the blind lady.

That, that's no longer the case, though, but for the Classic Car Club of America.

I'm the editor for their publication, the Classic Car, and the editor for the journal for the Society of Automotive Historians and assorted other things.

I was on the board of the Rolls Royce foundation and the treasurer.

That's one of those occasions with, you know, you're like the bottle washer and cook and all very pleasant experiences.

Although, you know, when you do your time in certain organizations and you help out as much as you can, it's nice to assume the mantle of emeritus.

I mean, how do you find, I mean, I'm surprised you found time to come back on the podcast, but how do you find time to do all this and how did it all come about?

Oh, dear.

Well, that's a very astute question because sometimes I ask myself that very question.

Where do I find and how am I going to find time to do these things?

And let's just say it would be more convenient if we went to a 36 hour day.

Although I can't change the rotation of the earth.

So sometimes, sometimes other things have to give and they, and they give in a painful sort of way.

So apologies to anyone who may listen to this and say, well, yes, it's true, you don't have enough time, so there's that.

But you know, the, the thing that guides us all in if we're fortunate enough to do things that we enjoy is that you make the time because you're enjoying what you do.

And, and if you don't have the time for the things you don't, it's painful to watch them float on by and you can't make it.

There are a number of events around the country and America enjoys a grand size that there's so many car events.

And we have such an active car culture here, particularly in the areas that are garden spots of the planet.

California, where I live in Southern Florida.

And you know, just like the spring, summer and fall in England, the northern climbs.

The northeast of the United States is absolutely beautiful over the sunny months.

So it's all very wonderfully geared towards automotive events.

So I mean, I know it's like all the judging and everything else.

I mean, this is one thing that has fascinated me for a long while.

The American concourse are plentiful in number because the one thing America has over England is I don't know as to how many times larger.

But America is vast compared to England.

But I mean you must do an inordinate amount of traveling to get to all these shows.

And the fact is the American concourse shows the level and standard at times seems to be way and above what we experience over here.

Apart from maybe retromobile and Villa d'.

Este.

I mean, your concords are incredible.

And there's really no cap to it except two important factors that overlap with each other and that's the calendar.

Yeah.

And the geography.

It is possible to have two Concord going on at the same time because you're fairly confident that if your Concorde is in California.

Well, you don't have to be or you're not expected to be a likely candidate for a concourse simultaneously going on in Florida.

Yeah.

You know, more than 3,000 miles away.

So there's that.

But our, our calendar has filled quickly all the ones that you mentioned that I'm involved with and many more.

They're strategically peppered all through the annual calendar.

Because the object is, let's not place our concord either geographically or on the calendar or both alongside another one.

Because you want to obviously increase the likelihood that folks will come to your Concord.

Yeah.

So.

So, but there's in terms of, you know, if, if like my want of a 36 hour day extended to, you know, an 18 month calendar and another 3,000 miles of width that will quickly fill up with a whole bunch of more Concord Elegance and other car shows because we do have quite a variety.

There's the Concord Elegance as a variety there's what we call cars and coffee, which has spread like wildfire because basically it is a one day, usually weekend, a Saturday at a designated spot, you'll have something like on the order of a thousand cars show up at an event that lasts, you know, the morning or into the early afternoon, three hours or something like that.

Yeah.

And.

And it's not such a huge commitment in terms of time and resources.

So they're very actively attended.

And you see everything from the bespoke world to the hot rod world customization, classic, you know, and of course that attracts the dealers and everything else.

So the car culture, you know, is, is.

Is really varied quite nicely or diversified,.

I get the distinct feeling, because there are quite a few of them, but they are spread out over the entirety of America.

Unlike England, what you will not get is maybe on occasions, you won't keep getting the same cars at everything.

Well, you.

There, there are cars that you see over periods of time that are campaigned because either they're fresh and they go around, quote, unquote, the circuit and that sort of thing.

What's marvelous about, though, English events is when they occur at lovely venues like our castles or our estates and that sort of thing.

Like the annual rallies for the Rolls Royce Enthusiast Club in England.

Well, you know, they'll be, you know, around a proper manor house and that sort of thing.

It's all very fitting and of course, charming for the American eye to go and see these lovely places.

And we do have a share of those things here.

I know there's always been the fallacy which was propagated by Errol Flynn, that the Americans thought every Englishman lived in his own little castle.

And you probably realize we don't.

And that's certainly true.

The one, I guess really proportionately, though smartly or rightfully at least, I believe the English didn't make sport of tearing down or obliterating its architectural heritage as badly as we have.

There were really incredibly beautiful places constructed here in.

And, you know, it wasn't until the Pennsylvania Station, Penn Station in New York City was demolished.

Yeah.

Because nobody believed that it would actually happen.

And it was designed by McKim, Mead White, the prominent architectural firm.

And it, I think it took about two years just to tear it down.

It was so robust.

Yeah.

And people didn't believe it would happen.

So preservation laws really got their go birthday.

But by that time, a great many either palatial or just extraordinary pieces of architecture met the bulldozer.

Because, you know, the American psyche going into the 20th century was one of out with the old and in with the new.

Yes.

There's parts of England that regrettably, the beautiful buildings were taken down.

What replaced them was an homage to concrete.

And they've now realized that they've been torn down because concrete doesn't last.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And like I said, like, in that particular case, I'm not kidding, an actual design criteria is, we want this thing to last, you know, 500 years.

And when you look at it, you kind of nod and go, yeah, I think it'll last a long time.

Yeah.

Now, one of the things you do a lot of these shows is you are a judge.

Now, how does.

I mean, I've judged at car shows, but nothing like yours.

And you just walk around and in many ways, to be quite honest, you tend.

I tend to pick the ones I like, and when I've made a note of the ones I like, I will then walk around them and look at them under greater scrutiny to find out, yes, well, that door that looks perfect is actually perfect because it's for the filler.

How, How.

How do you work out?

Are you.

Are you given categories to judge?

Do you judge all of them?

And I notice that when you see it on television, on YouTube, there's a positive team of judges going round.

So I conclude somehow you've all to agree.

Well, yes, and at times that it's.

Not that it becomes contentious, but just like you alluded to, everybody has their impression of what constitutes originality or technical noteworthiness and that sort of thing.

I mean, stepping back, in general, the people that you see judging are usually people that are known or to have a certain amount of exposure or expertise in that given mark.

Yeah.

In general, you'll probably find me judging Rolls Royces and Bentleys, but, you know, if you're a competent judge, you can judge just about any.

Any mark.

Yeah.

To a standard, judging.

Judging is a process of discrimination.

When you finally boil it down, I get asked that quite often in the sense of, you know, the question will be something like, what do you do when you judge these cars?

And I.

And I.

And I.

And my answer, because usually it's a layperson and it's anonymous.

Good question.

I said, well, think of it this way.

You have one car here, and it's not a Morgan.

Okay.

One car here, and it's got three wheels on it.

Yeah.

And the one next to it has four wheels.

The one with four wheels has got a wing because the other one's missing a bloody wheel.

Yeah, there's that piece of the equation.

Yeah.

And there's other things that are really quite practical that come down to safety elements.

When I start judging a car, I do what I like to call with my fellow judges, a DMV check.

A DMV being short for Department of Motor Vehicles.

We just basically an inspection.

So we'll have one guy in the front of the car, one guy in the back of the car, and then the owner turning on the car, then, you know, working the lights, putting his foot on the brake, making the reverse light go on, seeing that the directionals or the traffic haters are working and that sort of thing, if you think about it, and making the engine run, all those things, inspecting the engine.

I mean, there have been instances where I'm observing the engine.

I have to pull the owner over and said, you know, right next to the carburetor, you're leaking gas.

Yeah.

You're going to want to look at that.

So when I get asked, should I have my car?

I said, yes.

Look, unless.

Unless you feel like you'll be embarrassed if you don't win something.

If nothing else, it's a free motor vehicle inspection.

You'll see.

You know, it pains me when people spend hours preparing their car for judging, and then one of their lights doesn't work.

Yeah.

Just to mention one.

And anybody listening who may have a Rolls Royce Corniche, if you open the bonnet, there's.

At the top of the bonnet, there's a light to illuminate the engine when you open up the bonnet.

Yes, there is.

Okay.

That light loves to not work.

Loves it.

I picture engineers at Rolls Royce going, we'll.

We'll make this horrible trip switch that will be a gift to judges, you know, so they could take a point off when they open the bonnet, and that light doesn't work.

The other thing is, they are powered by what we call festoon bulbs, which love to blow.

Well, there it is.

There are these Achilles heels left and right.

And again, judging is a process of discrimination, because the judge's job is to look at what are fabulous cars in a class and decide in which ones really stand out, usually in an order of 1, 2, 3.

Another question I got, I get quite often, because these Rolls Royces and Bentleys are detailed and prepared to an extremely high Standard.

And you're looking at all of them.

They're all bloody perfect, okay?

And then somebody walk into me and go, oh my God, they're all perfect.

I mean, how could you possibly judge it?

Yeah, I said, I, I love it when they're perfect.

You know why?

I can't make a mistake.

So what are you going to argue with me with?

One perfect is better than another perfect?

Yeah.

Based on what?

They're perfect.

So you know, so you know, if, if I choose a car and its engine doesn't run, let's just say for a silly example, you know, then as a judge I could be taken, I, I could rightfully be taken to, to task.

Although there's no such thing as a judge's court.

Yeah, but you get the idea.

I mean, you do, you do want to take this very responsibly because the people that bring cause to, especially these high end Concords, have spent both money and mental capital to ridiculous expense to get the car there and, you know, show it and, and they're quite rightfully wanting to do very well.

Okay, fine.

And only one car can win first place.

So is it, is it, is it a committee decision?

I mean, say you've got three perfect.

Well, we'll go for a, shall we say, a relatively standard Rolls Royce.

You've got three perfect Mark two silver shadows parked in front of you that are all perfect.

How do you eventually decide which is the more perfect of the three perfect?

Okay, well, let's take that really to an extreme because it's a useful exercise.

They're all hundred point cars and they all score accordingly.

Yeah, they're perfect.

Every one of the bonnet lights work.

So you sit there and you go, okay, what else do we know about the car?

Okay, well, this particular car over here is one of a kind for some reason.

Yeah.

Okay.

It was the only one that was done to such and such specification.

That's a plus for that car.

Yeah.

Another car next to it.

You're standing with the original owner of the car.

Yeah.

He's still alive and he still owns the car.

And that's a great story.

So, you know, there's the pedigree, the uniqueness and all the rest that comes into play too.

Yeah.

I'm looking at this car, you know, it's a Phantom 2 and it was made to order by a maharaja.

Yeah.

Okay.

And it's got a jeweled dashboard, ebony fixtures in it and a white steering wheel and it's a one of a kind car.

Yeah.

Okay.

Now the one next to it you know, is one of 300 H.J.

Moliner, you know, limousines or something like that.

It's a beautiful car and it's perfect.

Yeah.

Okay.

Which one would you choose?

You know, and that's how you know at that point things are decided.

Right.

And, and, and sometimes the classes are such that it's not just a single mark.

Yeah.

So you'll have like say American pre war open class.

Okay.

So you've got a Stutz, a V16 Cadillac.

They're all convertibles or drop tests, if you like.

Yeah.

And, and you know, they're different marks.

So how do I judge a V16 Cadillac, you know, against a Packard or Stutz?

Yeah.

And, and they're all absolutely stunning cars.

Okay.

Yeah.

And, and the likelihood in the pre war era of getting, you know, either a very low run car because a lot of people don't know, and I may have mentioned this before, but, you know, before World War II, Rolls Royce never made a car.

No, they made a chassis and you had to have that done by coach builder.

Yeah.

So there's no difference between that and many other high end marks, whether it's a ski or, you know, scuts and then that sort of thing.

All the Duesenbergs were coach built.

A lot of them look very similar because they had.

A lot of them were done by the Walter Murphy Cuirassier, the coach building firm in Pasadena, California.

So there's that, that plays into all this.

The common denominator and everything that I've been saying though so far is that the judge, to be competent, has to have a certain amount of familiarity within what he or she is judging.

Yeah.

And although in terms of strict judging, you know, you're part of a team, so part of the protocol, you could almost think of it as a sort of apprenticeship.

Usually there will be somebody on the team that may not be very knowledgeable on the mark or even in judging.

Okay.

But is an enthusiast and knows certain things and can contribute to the process, particularly when it comes post judging to the deliberation to go through.

Okay, you saw this, you saw that, you think this.

Yeah.

And then that's where the sausage is made.

The judges go back and forth and say, oh, okay, you think this or whatever and then that's where the consensus is formed.

And, and, and, and all, all the judges in all my experience, take that part of the process very seriously.

Yeah.

It's not, it's not so much as compromised as a mixture of maybe that.

And no matter how much expertise you have, you, you never Think of yourself as the smartest man in the room or any such thing.

Yeah.

You leave room for learning and that for the judge.

I think I'll say this personally is one of the pleasures of learning from other people.

Yeah.

That I did not consider that before.

But most of it turns out to be, you know, just nailing down, you know, maybe between one or two cars.

Yeah.

Usually do you all have to agree?

Say there's a.

Say there's you and two others.

You're three judges going around each car.

Do you all have to agree or can it be a majority decision?

Two yes, one no, or how does it work?

Do you all then disappear off, sit down, have a coffee, origin and tonic.

If you're judging Rolls Royce, do you all three have to agree?

Well, have to is.

Is the goal we'd like to.

And I'll say I can't even think where we haven't all agreed.

Yeah.

Because we really do want to turn in a unanimous decision.

That is something I think we all have and doesn't even need to be said.

I think, you know, we're walking around with that thought.

It's DP then majority has to rule.

I mean we have to get in a resolve.

Yeah, but I can't even write.

Well, you know, we're, we're deadlocked.

So a week later that you're still walking around a car in the middle of a now very empty field.

Right.

And you know, it can't really work that way.

So yes, I, I think that ultimately if it need be, it would be a majority rule thing, but I can't even think of an occasion where that has actually happened.

Yeah.

Now the one thing I do notice when I watch, I mean, YouTube is a great thing for letting you see things that you wouldn't normally be able to get to.

I mean apart from the, the American concourse are grand affairs and a lot of the cars on show are potentially for sale.

And a car that wins, I suppose it's the same the world over, but a car that wins, say Amelia island, all of a sudden its value skyrockets.

And I conclude a lot of the owners are certain owners.

This is what they will be looking for.

Well, that is certainly true.

And that if you turn it on its head is also a huge challenge, particularly for high end Concord delegates.

Yeah.

Because just putting in, if you say this is the car that has won, the owner can sit back and think, well, that's just added half a million dollars to its value.

Well, and, and because of that, those particular shows, Apple, beach, and so forth.

They.

They try very hard to make sure that whatever goes on to their field is correct, worthy and all that good stuff.

Yeah.

Because if a three dollar bill, something that's really just not right or made up or compromised in a material way gets onto the field, it's, you know, the classic car equivalent of money laundering.

It goes in dirty on one side and comes out clean the other side.

Yeah.

And.

And that is a challenge, you know, and these things, you know, have happened before.

And so.

So that's a big concern for the Concorde.

Yeah.

And their success rate in being able to wade through that equation and apply it also contributes to the.

To the legitimacy, prestige of that particular Concorde.

Yeah.

Because when it comes out the other side, it is, you know, kind of, in a way, sanctioned.

It's like, yes, this car won.

It's best to show.

Yeah.

You know, it's almost like endorsing the back of a check.

Yeah.

And, you know, that's one side of the equation.

The other side of the equation is people look for cars because they know they're special.

They either haven't been restored or been out of the public eye a very long time, and they're looking for a car that has not been at a Concorde before.

Yeah.

Because now, you know, the rule, particularly for eyeing Concorde, is if a car even has been shown at a particular concourse, unless that mark is featured in a particular concourse, subsequently within five years, that car can't come back.

Oh, right.

Okay.

So you.

Some people are looking for cars and they want to be the one.

Yeah.

Who restores the car, has their name attached to the car and everything.

When it wins, I am so and so.

And my car, I discovered it.

It's this.

It's that it was this special car belong to Fred Astaire.

And going back to another conversation, because now, you know, the ownership of.

Of some of these cars, even if they're celebrities, it becomes an equation of, well, which celebrity.

Yeah.

Because if they're not known anymore, those things weighed in and out of.

Let's call it the calculus of value.

Yeah.

But the, the getting through.

Getting a car through a Concorde, you want to be the one who takes it through.

So if that's your.

If that's your bag.

Yeah.

You may not be that interested in being, well, okay, I'll buy the car that won and just show it because it's the car that won.

And.

And I'm interested in that.

Yeah.

But I won't be able to take it back to showing in again.

I'll show it in another Concord.

Yeah, so, yeah, this.

But in general, what you say is, is absolutely true.

Car goes in and.

And is a winner.

And, and you see this a lot in auction catalogs.

Yeah.

This car, you know, won its class at pebble beach, you know, two years ago, whatever it may be, or Melee island and that sort of thing.

So if it's going in an auction description, you know, it's, it's meant to boost the value.

Yeah.

Now, I don't know whether you've encountered this, but I'll tell you a little story I was comparing at a classic car show, the judge failed to turn up.

So it became my task to judge.

And there were about seven categories and every car that won its category came back at the end of the day for car of the Show.

And on the odd occasion when this happened, I used to walk around, somebody used to get a pad, make a note of all the cars, there are only about seven of them.

And I used to walk around the assembled crowds, around the arena and say, if you could take any one of these cars home, which would it be?

And they all used to say, well, it's the Triumph, it's the Mercedes, it's the Rolls Royce, it's whatever.

On this particular show, two of the cars, one was an Aston Martin, a DBS that had had a very, very extensive checkbook restoration, beautifully done.

And the other, and it's ironic, this was a three wheeler and it was what they call a Bond Bug.

I don't think you guys will have ever been unfortunate enough to see one of these made by Reliance.

One wheel at the front, two at the back.

Bright orange.

They were nearly all bright orange.

Looked like a wedge of cheese you lifted the entire front up to get in.

Incredibly unstable cars.

But they were a sport.

They were technically a sports car.

This one had been restored by a young boy who'd done delivering newspapers and all sorts of things, bought it as a wreck and had restored it and the quality of the restoration.

And his parents came up, they said, he has done everything himself, was superb.

And at the end of my walk round where I'd asked about 50, 60 people, what would they have, they all said the Bomb Bug.

And the Bond Bug won car of the show.

The guy with the Aston Martin absolutely became incandescent with rage.

Do you ever find this at some of the shows, you are that the car that they think should win doesn't and the owner is not exactly a happy man or woman.

Well.

Or are you guys all better mannered than they Are over you.

Okay.

I'll tell you.

I'll say a few things about that.

And I think that there are probably a lot of people at the end of a Concord that are quite cross that they didn't win.

Yeah.

And feel that their car is the best.

I'll point to an example and I'll protect the names to protect the innocent and the not so innocent.

At a head of Concorde.

About 20 years ago, the feature class was Morgan.

Oh, right.

Okay.

I used to own one of those.

Okay.

They're lovely cars.

And because it was the featured mark, we were blessed with having really absolutely stunning examples of the mark.

And that factor, which is a legitimate factor in terms of looking at what a Concorde is doing.

If you have a featured mark, well, kind of lovingly throw eyes upon that mark for recognition when it comes to awards.

And there were a number of other cars that were absolutely stunning.

And so the decision was really vexed.

It was really debated on what car should win.

Yeah.

And you know, in.

In any other day, that discussion probably would not have taken place, I think, if it wasn't that the Morgan was a featured mark.

But you have to say to yourself, okay, I'm.

I'm somebody or a group of people or let's say the entire attending population of the show that looked at this and you're saying if that car won, did it win because it was truly the best in show or is it some other reason?

That's one thought.

Okay.

Yeah.

Because of course, if you have an extraordinary.

In this case, it was an extraordinary Bentley that, that it was up against every other day of the week, in terms of your usual thought of what a Concord Elegance is, you would say no, obviously in the Bentley would, would win.

Yeah.

The other thing that I remember getting up and talking about at that time, and this is again a sub one of the subjective things you have to say because these are lovely cars.

Yeah.

Okay.

And at times it almost seems like you're trying to choose between your children, you know, because everybody in the room is an enthusiast.

Yeah.

They're all car guys.

Okay.

They don't want to vote against a car.

And I remember saying that whichever car we choose.

Okay.

That is going to be the face of this show for the next year because all the news reports and everything else are going to feature that car.

Yeah.

So we also have to consider what is the court of this show?

What does this show mean?

If this is a show of exotic cars or this is a show that likes, you know, the pre war cars or what what, what is the face of the show or another way of saying it is when you think of such and such Concord, what kind of car comes to mind?

Okay.

Is it.

And that's one consideration as well.

Yeah.

So for any one of these shows, if you think about it, when you read it, which car won, you know, that's the face of the show for the rest of that year.

Yeah.

So another best of shows done.

But you know, sadly enough, because I think MGs are absolutely wonderful cars.

Very rarely do you see a, a Jaguar winning or a Jaguar.

If I'm saying it the correct way,.

Put it this way, that's the nearest I've heard an American pronounce the word Jaguar correctly.

Most of them pronounce it with the D W in it.

Right, exactly.

Or as a friend of mine once said, you swallow the U. Yeah.

So.

So those things are in play.

Okay.

Yeah.

And, and it, it's sad, but it's a, it's a reality.

Which cars will tend to win.

You know, how many Duesenbergs have you seen win at a Concord Elegance?

Well, this year, pebble beach, he had one of the short wheelbase Duesenbergs.

That one that was associated with Clark Gable.

Yeah.

And the other, the other short wheelbase one was associated.

Or Mike.

Oh, geez, why can't I think of his name right now?

It'll come to me.

Speaking of Gary Cooper.

Oh yeah.

And that, that one.

Best of show.

So there are marks, you know, the Rolls Royces and the Duesenbergs or the Delahays or you know, the Bugattis and that sort of thing.

They'll tend to win the very high end of production.

Yeah.

Or classic cars or what have you.

Okay.

Sorry.

That's the way things are now.

One year, not too long ago, a Ferrari won best of show at Pebble Beach.

And I, and I'm not sure, but I think it was either the first or, or certainly the first time a post war sporting car won best of show at Pebble Beach.

Yeah.

And it was a, it was like breaking through a glass ceiling of sorts.

Yeah.

So, you know, the other thing about this as well is whatever wins, it's really a message of.

This was what we thought was the best on this day amongst the cars that were here.

Yeah,.

There's that.

So.

But it's a fun exercise in my opinion though, the whole judging exercise, particularly when it comes to market clubs, the Rolls Royce owners club, the Jaguar club, you know, the mark clubs, those are where really the tough judging takes place.

Yeah.

Why?

Because if you've got, you know, 18 silver clouds in a Rolls Royce owners club meet all lined up next to it.

You have to be absolutely brutal in going through them to discern which one is the best one.

And the judging sheets reflect that.

A judging sheet for the Rolls Royce owners club is varied based on model era and they're 400 points for the judging sheet and they'll judge every, every bloody thing about the car.

I was going to ask you, how many on one of your judging sheets, how many points do you have to tick off or put crosses next to.

Usually it's a 100 point system to also allow points for provenance, elegance and other differentiating attributes.

In a Concord elevation.

Yeah, there's really none of that or very little of that that enters into mark judging in the clubs.

And some of the frequent questions that come up is owners want to see their judging sheets and they say, you know, from a Concord and say, you know, they want to learn, they want to know how to improve their car and everything.

I think my usual advice for somebody like that is take your car, join a market club for your car and have it judged there.

Yeah.

Because that is an.

A brutal evaluation.

And if you think about it, these clubs were started for very specific reasons.

If you think about how these clubs were first started, they were started many years ago when these cars were basically old, used cars, obsolete cars, cars that these people got together, kind of like a marauding group of.

Off of a Mad Max movie or something, thinking, thinking about keeping their cars going and, and in good order and that sort of thing.

So they rallied together and grouped together to do that.

Yeah.

And one of the.

And one of the objections of objectives of a mark club is the preservation of the cars, the history and that sort of thing.

Well, if you think about it, how do we do that?

And it's clear that the best way to do that is to use the machinations of competition.

Yeah.

Because if you line up all your cars and compete to achieve the most authentic, the most correct, the most well preserved.

Well, now you've achieved through competition the objective of the very club's organization.

Yeah.

So it's in a way it's a ruse, isn't it?

Yes.

We want to preserve these Rolls Royces.

How do we do it?

Well, we judge based on authenticity, condition correctness and all that.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

I mean, one thing you made, one thing you mentioned is Jaguars don't do well.

I mean, I know when the XK120 came out, it was a very popular car with the Hollywood Elite.

Gable, and I think Spencer Tracy had one.

Is there any reason why the Jaguar is not a popular American concourse car?

Well, if you.

You mentioned car, Gable, and I think he called it the perfect sports car, the XK120.

Yeah.

And if you look at it, it's absolutely stunningly gorgeous, both, you know, to the eye and, and in terms of performance, you know, it didn't have a drop of embarrassed motor oil anywhere.

You've heard the old saying, haven't you?

If you reverse a Jaguar or an MG out of your garage in the morning and there isn't oil on the floor, do you know what this means?

There's none in the engine.

Well, there's a better one.

And it goes like this.

Do you know why the English stopped making televisions?

No.

They couldn't figure out how to make them leak oil.

Now, that may be funnier and everything, but if you look back at the history of pebble beach, very early on, I think in the second Pebble beach, if I'm not mistaken, an XK120 did win best of Shore.

So, you know, there.

There's an evolution in.

Let's call it the industry, because I.

And I think we.

We talked about this in the last time around.

I. I'm really in the hunt for a better word than hobby for what we do.

Okay.

But in the hobby, you know, there's been an evolution because speaking of what I just talked about on the origins of many of these clubs in the late 30s, 40s, and particularly in the early 50s when they were all organized, there was really no classic car industry.

It really was, you know, refugees from a Mad Max movie off in the desert, trying to keep these cars running.

Kind of organizations.

Let's all get together, boys, and we'll roll up our sleeves and, you know, figure out how to keep these cars on the road and enjoy them.

And they're really spectacular.

And then that grew up into what we have today and for some decades.

Really, what is enthusiast motor car industry?

Yeah, that extends from auctions, restorers, museum, a whole retinue of spokes branching out on this appreciation for the automobile.

Yeah.

And here we are.

So, you know, it's.

It's a.

It's a bit of a different world from where it started and thankfully.

So.

Okay.

It's.

It's rather odd to think like, for example, the Antique Automobile Club of America, one of the oldest, you know, considers an antique automobile anything over 25 years old.

All right, well, right.

Antique and slightly frightening thought.

Slightly frightening thought, isn't it?

Thereabouts.

Yeah.

And that has to do basically where you know, you have Ferraris that you want to include that for all intensive, intensive purposes.

It's a hand built automobile.

And the waning off completely from full chassis, coach built or body built manufacturing.

Yeah.

For the United States that was pretty much the mid-60s and onward.

Yeah.

Where you know, the monocoque or unibody construction started to really take hold of the entire manufacturing enterprise including for Rolls Royce which in the mid-60s came out with the Silver Shadow, its first unibody or monocoque car.

A complete departure from the silver Cloud, which was a full chassis automobile.

Yeah, yeah.

So there's another distinction between one end of the show world, the Concorde that were done and, and, and things like the Rolls Royce Owners club.

So, so if you ask it not be perfect.

How did it not be perfect?

It was just delivered.

The problem will be if you ask the.

About his car, he won't have, he won't have any much in the way of knowledge as be able to answer the question.

Well you, to use your term a few steps back.

You know, there, there are checkbook enthusiasts and I don't want to disparage that cross section of, of the enthusiast world because you know, they, they, they love their car as much as somebody that knows or at least in a way as much as somebody who knows everything about the mark and their car and the model.

But in terms of when you're on a judging field and you're asking a person about their car and they don't know about the car, that's something that you don't want to happen.

If anyone's listening, don't do that.

And many of the people that I, I believe that they fall into that category has their caretaker or the restorer represent the car for them.

Yeah.

On the field because the judge isn't supposed to.

A judge is not allowed to touch the car.

That's another thing.

All right.

Touch the car.

Can't open the door.

You know, you can't, you can't do any of that.

Yeah.

And the usual stick that is said, you know, in the, the judges meeting is, you know, it could be your friend's car.

But if you go to open the door and, and you end up with the handle in your hand, what are you going to do at that point?

You know, let it, let the owner suffer that embarrassment.

Not you, not you.

Don't touch the car.

Yeah.

And, and so there are these kinds of protocols.

You would not believe it.

But, you know, and this isn't me being paranoid because sometimes, you know, spies, there are good spies and there are a whole lot of bad spies.

Okay.

That are purposefully looking over your shoulder while you're judging the card to see what you mark down on your judging sheet so they could see how, you know, or eavesdropping.

You know, when, when we're done judging a car, usually what happens is the judges walk away to a spot where nobody is standing.

So, you know, and talk about it and, and, and they do their.

The first, the first pass and a review happens that way.

Yeah.

You know, usually, you know, and I keep saying, you know, the sausage is made.

Okay.

The discussion is bad.

Yeah.

Back in the judging room to, to finalize your choices.

But usually a team will, after judging a car, will step aside to, you know, just go through broad brush strokes on their impressions and various other things.

And I conclude when you've actually finished and made your decision, at the end of a long day, all the judges then disappear off out of the way so they can't be found and enjoy half an hour's relaxation.

Well, yes, here's the unfortunate reality for judges as well.

You really don't have all that much time to enjoy the show, to see the cause.

You're, you're there, you're performing a task, and it takes half, half the time that the Concord is going on to fulfill your duties.

Yeah.

And I'll just give you a for instance.

After judging the pre war Rolls Royce class this year at pebble beach, we have fabulous cars.

We had the Bugatti Type 41 Royale from the Henry Ford Museum there.

Yeah.

The equivalent of $7 million.

Yeah.

I wanted to spend a whole lot of time with that car and I couldn't.

Yeah.

Very special car.

And there were a number of cars that went extraordinary.

I mean, Tambo beach is like three steak dinners in one Night.

Yeah,.

You could very well enjoy that first one.

But the other two, you can't help but have them because they're so juicy.

But yeah, it's a little bit trouble getting them down kind of thing.

Maybe a bad analogy, but it's a lot of cars and most all of them, Mark could be a best of show almost anywhere else.

Yeah, it's really a stunning thing.

They come from all over the world and I can't recommend it enough.

And there are a number of shows that really turn out extraordinary cars.

Yeah.

You know, so I don't want to just leave the accolades on the feet of just.

You mentioned the Millie island this coming week.

This week I'll be Judging at the St. Michael's Concord Elegance which is in Maryland.

Yeah, you know, they're, they turn out incredible cars and you know, I, I do encourage anybody that listens to this sort of thing and think, oh well, this is all a one step removed from my reality.

I would encourage you to find a place where you could show your car, particularly if it's a car that is not seen often.

Because I could tell you this about how our minds work, the things we hear about and the things we see, we either forget or we know.

You know, we sort of remember.

It's only when we see things right in front of us, when we experience it, that we actually believe that they exist.

Yeah.

And you know, I, we're all students of human nature.

We have to be.

And I love watching the faces of the people looking at the cars and particularly the young people who never reckoned that any of these things actually exist in a way that they actually move and can drive and belong anywhere else except in the pages of a coffee table book.

Yeah.

You know, and they actually see it.

And you know, I would have this discussion with the Rolls Royce Overs club because we would have people that would come with later cars, Silver Spurs, Silver Shadow.

And even amongst that group of people, they'll go on a judging field and they'll see somebody drive by with, you know, mid-50s Bentley Continental.

Yeah.

Coach Bill H.G.

Mulliner fast or a pre war Phantom 2 or even a Silver Ghost.

Yeah.

And once they see that, they go, wait a while, that could be me.

Yeah.

And before too long you see them show up and they still have the Silver Shadow.

But all of a sudden there's a Silver Ghost in their collection.

Why?

Because it became real.

Yeah.

Make this real for your fellow enthusiasts.

They're out there.

By the way, you mentioned the festoon bulb on the Rolls Royce hood Inside, they were made by Lucas, I was going to say Joe Lucas, effectually known in England as the Prince of Darkness.

Because if you run with Lucas lights, you could guarantee, don't go out at night because they probably won't work.

Or if.

Well, see, this is really the profile folks need to attach to Rolls Royce owners, particularly the ones of older cars and the ones running with Lucas electrics and all this.

Really, the profile of that owner is one of an extraordinary optimistic nature.

They're very nice people.

And they, you know, the glasses always have full kind of thing.

You have to be.

Yeah, because, you know, the.

The certain realities, you know, eclipse the little quips and sayings.

Like, you know, do you know that the Rolls Royce, you can't open the bonnet, they're sealed shut.

Because why would you want to go in there?

Never breaks down.

It's perfect.

The rest of this stuff, you know, so.

And I've had.

I've had that question asked, why do you like these cars so much?

The real answer is, I. I love a good Don Quixote story.

Yeah, okay.

You know, chasing windmills and that sort of thing.

The idea, something like a Duesenberg, okay, that is way further down the road of, you know, what you need for transportation.

The same thing with the world.

It's like, no, you don't need to do that, but we're gonna do it anyway.

We want to make this extraordinary.

I love that sort of thing.

But when I have my tongue in cheek and I'm asked, why do I like all soy suits?

You know, I'd say, well, my middle name is Lucas and my wife's name is Eleanor, which is for those who know the Flying lady or the Spirit of Ecstasy.

Eleanor Thornton.

Eleanor Thornton.

So I said, how can I possibly nightlight these cars?

The other thing is the.

It's.

It was.

It goes back to demolishing things until they demolished it.

The factory where Joe Lucas made the lights that will be fitted to Rolls Royce is approximately 25 minutes away from where I'm sat.

Ah, okay.

You know, and, and, and of course, it's.

It's universal.

Anything like that.

And I think anyone could step back and say, well, I don't care what car you're talking about.

If the car is 70 years old, it's good.

It's going to have the odd problem.

It's going to give you a reminder of that fact every now and then.

It's actually far more amazing that these cars are still around.

I mean, if you could dig up all the factory workers and sit them down and show them these cars and say, hey, did you have any idea that 100 years on people will not only have these looking like this, but that they would still be around and completely doted upon and all of us.

Yeah, I'm sure most of them would think you were absolutely crazy to think such a thing.

And even WO Bentley had thinking along those lines.

He loved being the patron saint of the Bentley Drivers Club.

Yeah.

He was a popular man at BBC events and he was kind of perplexed about the whole thing.

I think I talked about this last time that, you know, there would be such a following for these things.

But then again, you know, driving these cars out in the open road, particularly if it's a drop head, which we went to silicon convertible, you know, there's a certain incredible charm.

And I would go, for me, it's one step further.

You know, we can't time travel into the future, but if you get into one of these cars and you're in.

And particularly in England, when you could drive through a town that's timeless, through its landscape and architecture and everything, you do feel like you were glimpsing and you're traveling to the past and experiencing life the way it was for those who came before us.

And it's really quite pleasant to find that you could feel in that shared experience.

And that's what these cars offer as well.

And the interesting thing is that we shall bring this to an end on a little story of mine.

A couple of years ago I went to the.

And the event has more or less come to an end because the organizers found it exhausting.

But vintage Revival Montloit, the famous banked circuit just outside Paris that still exists and is still used for testing.

Testing.

The other year I was there and the Napier Bentley.

A deal had been done where the Napier Bentley was taken back to Monleri and it recreated what it did a hundred years ago.

And the guy driving it was told, don't drive it too hard, don't drive it at the top of the banking, don't do this, don't do that.

And I'm pleased to say he came hammering round the banking, right at the top, under full throttle.

And you think that's how it was driven?

Yeah, yeah.

The sound was staggering.

There is a concern about that sort of thing, though, because sooner or later, no matter how well these things are constructed and restored, there are such things as metal fatigue like this, so you can blow an engine.

I mean, there are Silver Ghost owners that have reproduction Engines constructed so they can tour with their car.

Yeah.

And they keep the original engine on the stand.

Yeah.

Because, you know, these are.

These are.

But that's.

You know, that's a wonderful plan.

And despite what I just said, in general, we're still well within the scope of enjoying these automobiles.

And they are an artifact that has imbued in them all the wondrous things of humanity, from culture, art, the sciences, physics, chemistry, the crafts, the arts and crafts.

All of that is distilled into every one of these artifacts.

It's really something to not only enjoy, but understand.

I think the other thing is as well.

I've driven cars where I've been told, don't do this, don't do that, and you're behind the wheel, and you think, this thing wants to go and drive.

Drive the thing.

No matter what you've been told, this car wants to go, so let it.

And.

And then you enjoy it the way it was designed to be enjoyed.

And then when you pull back and you get told, you'll never get allowed near any of my cars at once.

Well, there's that.

You know, that falls under the header of what should I ask for permission or forgiveness?

Yeah.

Reuben vez, it's been an absolute pleasure once again, chatting with you.

It's fantastic that you agreed to come back and appear for part two of your chat on the Backseat Driver podcast.

But, Ruben vez, thank you very much.