Welcome back to the No Grey Areas Podcast! In this episode, our host, Patrick McCalla, sits down with his lifelong friend, Ben Homan, for a conversation exploring the intricacies of life, faith, and the power of choice.

Having known each other for over two decades, Patrick and Ben delve into God's relentless pursuit of humanity, the transformative power of ordinary moments, and the importance of limiting choices to alleviate the burden of modern-day overwhelm. Throughout the discussion, Ben shares profound insights gained from his diverse encounters, from navigating the challenges of the workplace to his passion for serving the "Least, last, and lost."

Listeners are invited to embrace a new perspective on decision-making and to find hope amidst life's uncertainties.

Connect with Ben Homan through the Langham Partnership organization

https://us.langham.org/

Be sure to like our podcast, share it with a friend, and leave a review!

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No Grey Areas is a motivational podcast with captivating guests centered around how our choices humanize, empower, and define who we become. This podcast is inspired by the cautionary tale, No Grey Areas, written by Joseph Gagliano. Learn more about the truth behind his story involved with sports' biggest scandal at nogreyareas.com

Host

Welcome back to the No Gray Areas podcast, where I have the honor to be joined by a long time friend and mentor, Ben Homan. Our interview together includes us sharing personal stories, exploring God's love in ordinary moments of life, and offering hope amidst the chaos of decision making. Let's jump in.

Pat McCalla

Ben, home and welcome to the No Gray Areas podcast. Man, this is my pleasure having you on today. We were just talking before we turned on the mics and the camera that, we've known each other for almost 20

Ben Homan

years.

Ben Homan

That's right.

Pat McCalla

2005, we

Ben Homan

met. You were

Pat McCalla

running an organization that, was a great organization, and I wanted so badly to work there.

Pat McCalla

Ben Homan

Pat McCalla

worked with you for I was there for about five years. But, what we want to do today, Ben, is I want to unpack, your thoughts on the power and complexity of human choice. I want to unpack your thoughts on,

Pat McCalla

how a lot of humanity today, in our world today and throughout human history actually don't have the level of of choice that we may have.

Pat McCalla

And just because of where we grew up and the places you've worked, that's something you've really seen firsthand and something that's very, very close and dear to your heart, I know that,

Pat McCalla

but just for our audience to get to know you a little bit, let's just back up, give us a little bit of your bio, like where you've worked, the organization that you've led and why you led those organizations.

Ben Homan

Sure. And it's actually very interesting to use the, the element of choice to be able to think, through some of those steps, because choice certainly was involved.

Ben Homan

some choices by other people and some of my own choices. And it goes back to the family of origin, a non Christian family. And,

Ben Homan

you know, my parents were nominally exposed to Christianity growing up, and they chose not to engage with Christianity as adults and raising children.

Ben Homan

And we may have, attended church once every other year and might have been an Easter here there, but it really was not a relevant

Ben Homan

thing. More relevant. And actually in my household was horoscope. My mom would stretch out into the kitchen table,

Ben Homan

some huge newsprint paper, and I'm not sure what she did in terms of architecting or sketching out the sky, revolving around when I was born.

Ben Homan

And I have no, specific cognizance of her conclusions. But that was the household and,

Ben Homan

you.

Ben Homan

Exactly. And, it's a longer story. We may not have time for it, but I ended up

Ben Homan

hearing the gospel at a at a church. And so my choice, teenage rebellion, was to go towards the church

Ben Homan

and it freaked my parents out.

Pat McCalla

That's so funny that you said that. So you were rebelling by going to church?

Ben Homan

but. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And they were like, okay, you want to go?

Ben Homan

Not just on Sunday morning. You want to go Sunday night, you want to go to youth group on Wednesday. What what is happening? And they really they were scratching their heads.

Pat McCalla

thought you were maybe in a cult or something.

Ben Homan

Ben Homan

and I planned to go into the pastorate, and that really freaked

Ben Homan

my, folks out. And, and so we we reached a compromise. And so I switched my major from Christian education to communication. In the back of my mind, it's like,

Ben Homan

well, I'm going to learn how to preach. But I ended up never being a pastor.

Ben Homan

I had a couple of near misses going to, a seminary, but I ended up, eventually working at a seminary as a layperson for almost 13 years. And I saw I had a front row seat, to the grace of God coming into people's lives, a discovery, a deepening of grace. And that probably was the thing that propelled me, what the New Testament calls the ministry of reconciliation, that God is working a way to bring us to himself.

Ben Homan

And that, to me, was transformative. And I wanted to do whatever I could. And there were opportunities to go overseas and other things.

Pat McCalla

let me just jump in really quick, Ben, and just tell our audience, this is one of the things that I've loved about you from the time I first met you almost 20 years ago.

Pat McCalla

Grace. Reconciliation has been a theme that I've consistently heard you speak of like it is. It is embedded deep within your soul as it should be.

Pat McCalla

Because it's the story, right? It's the narrative of the Bible that, we moved away from him. He didn't move away from us. And then he's done everything to

Pat McCalla

reconcile that relationship.

Ben Homan

But I.

Ben Homan

Exactly.

Ben Homan

Well,

Ben Homan

in my view, you go into the scriptures, you plop into whatever book or story or narrative, and you want to ask yourself least. The question I asked myself is, where are we in redemptive history? What is God doing here that's connected to his overarching story, the story of redemption? And I have, a colleague of mine in my current ministry who's written a huge, magnificent tome called The Mission of God, Christopher J.

Ben Homan

H right.

Ben Homan

And he does. Yeah, it's an amazing book. And it's it's dense reading. but

Ben Homan

It weaves together this notion of God on a mission. And, that mission is coming after you, Pat and me, Ben and all the listeners. God's on a mission to come after us, and and you can look at Scripture that way.

Ben Homan

Open up whatever book of the Bible and there's part of that story.

Pat McCalla

I love that you say that because it is true.

Pat McCalla

anywhere,

Ben Homan

you open up and

Ben Homan

That's

Ben Homan

Yes, they're hiding from

Ben Homan

Yes.

Ben Homan

That's right. And people.

Ben Homan

That's right. And then, you know, a colleague in the theological education world approached me, as I was, you know, finishing, one of my years at the seminary. And he said, you know, there's a leadership transition going on at, food for the hungry. And you ought to throw your hat in the ring. And I thought, ha ha ha.

Ben Homan

there's no way that the board of directors of this very large, humanitarian organization is going to turn to then a 40 year old math challenged fellow like me. And and so, I remember interviewing and, telling the board of directors, look, I'll go talk with people for free, but you got to pay me to do budgets because I break a sweat to do numbers.

Ben Homan

And, I was just transparent about my mathematical failings and their reaction was, we're not hiring a mathematician, so we we we can hire the finance people, but

Ben Homan

we have a, an organization that wants to be on a mission. we want to have biblical fidelity and alignment in all that we do. And, and so they, they took a chance on this, 40 year old bloke like me and, had a, ten year ride with, food for the hungry.

Ben Homan

And along the way, Pat, I learned that, organizational improvement, was one of the tools that the Lord had entrusted to me. And that's also a longer story. And so I had an opportunity to to be a part of that with, the seminary I was a part of, with food for the hungry. And then along came Langham Partnership.

Ben Homan

That's who I serve with now. Langat Ham partnership.

Ben Homan

You've been there?

Ben Homan

this is my 14th year.

Ben Homan

And

Pat McCalla

You've been there longer than you were. Food

Ben Homan

Exactly.

Ben Homan

Didn't realize that.

Ben Homan

Yeah, yeah. Time marches on. It really does. Yes it does. Yeah. So they were in a precarious place. They're doing such good work, but they were in a precarious place financially. And, in real estate terms, I thought, this is a fixer upper. I want to be a part of fixing and bringing to organizational health and financial health this excellent ministry.

Ben Homan

And so it's been a it's been a great experience. I work with amazing people

Pat McCalla

So what's interesting and you bring up that organizational improvement and I definitely see that in you that that's something that, God instilled in you. And that's not easy

Pat McCalla

that's a heavy load to carry. I know when you go into an organization and you have to change things and, and bring whatever change it needs to improve it,

Pat McCalla

that takes some years off your life, doesn't

Ben Homan

Well, it's it's intense, but you have to break it into parts. And so

Ben Homan

the image I like to use, I stole it from somewhere is the, the image of a frog wanting to cross to the other side of the pond. And the frog cannot reach the other side of the pond in one leap, but he can go from one lily pad to the next.

Ben Homan

And so in an organizational change, you need to figure out, you know, have a sense of what does that distant shore look like? But what are the intermediate places you need to go to in order to get to the other side? And so you you need to think through, sequence of, you know, which lily pad first and which lily pad second.

Ben Homan

And so that does take the stress off,

Ben Homan

again, a phrase I, am lifting from somewhere I have read, and that is that we sometimes overestimate what we can do in one year and underestimate what we do in ten. And so, with persistence going after it year after year, wonderful things can happen. And if anybody's out there listening in there early in their career or early in a particular job, I usually say, hey, the first 18 months really hurts because you've been one time around the track, one lap and you've just started that second lap and you everything that you're experiencing is new or fresh and that is stressful.

Ben Homan

But after you stay in that cycle year after year and you start learning the cycle and mastering the cycle, then

Ben Homan

you get to see some fun things happen. Yeah.

Pat McCalla

I love what you said. That point you brought up about overestimating what we can do in a year and underestimating what we can do in 5 or 10

Ben Homan

years. Yeah,

Pat McCalla

because I think, again, for all of our listeners, because some of our listeners may be in leadership or management positions where they are trying to bring organizational change, and some may not be in those positions.

Pat McCalla

But

Pat McCalla

all of us are in in place with our individual lives

Ben Homan

Yes,

Pat McCalla

where that, that that's that is true of our life too, that,

Pat McCalla

you know, implementing, some daily time with God getting in his word,

Pat McCalla

praying, meditating, what that's going to do for us, a month or a year from now, we might overestimate, but you do that consistently for five, ten years.

Pat McCalla

We probably can't even imagine. Same thing with eating healthy or working out or any of the habits, good habits that we may want to bring into our life. So I think that's such an important thing that you bring up. And, well, let me go back. This is something that that has been kind of the core of your heart since I've known you.

Pat McCalla

This redemptive story, this that God trying to heal the broken relationship between him and us as humanity. But also you've had a,

Pat McCalla

heart, a deep heart and longing for the least lasting loss. We may say,

Ben Homan

Right,

Ben Homan

Well, I think it comes from the heart of God, and I. It goes back to my story. Yeah. You know, I grew up in Southern California, non-Christian family. Nobody knew who we were. We were, in a sense, nobodies. And then I heard the gospel, and my reaction was me. You're coming after me. God, you love me. You see me.

Ben Homan

And that was it was hard to get my arms around. It still is hard to get my arms around it. But he came after me. So I, you know, I was a awkward 13 year old and God came after this awkward 13 year old. And and so that's that story of God seeing me in this family that was not following after him to me was that was the paradigm that I have felt has carried me into the humanitarian work, where you go into a context to the least and the lost, the people who sometimes are simply statistics and not real people with real pain.

Ben Homan

or they're not in our headlines, they're not on our news feed. And yet God sees them and he wants us to see them and their humanity, their dignity, the fact that they bear the image of the Most High God and regardless of the context, regardless of what position that they're in,

Ben Homan

they have, incredible value.

Ben Homan

And, and so

Ben Homan

I think it comes back to that. I have a friend of mine who, is an amazing leader in India. He grew up in the Rajasthan province. And, the way he phrases it is I want to give

Ben Homan

the best to the least.

Pat McCalla

I want to give the best to the

Ben Homan

And to me that that frames it. And when we think about the value of what the gospel is, that's exactly what it is. It's giving the best to the least.

Pat McCalla

I hear you saying that's your story is a 13 year old in Southern California. No one knows who Benjamin is.

Ben Homan

That's right.

Pat McCalla

talk about the,

Pat McCalla

the globe, I mean who's been home and and yet God sees you. And I love that you use those words, by the way, because one of my favorite names for God, El ROI, I

Ben Homan

Ben Homan

Right.

Ben Homan

right.

Ben Homan

right?

Ben Homan

you. His

Pat McCalla

whole goal is to reconcile the relationship with you. And so, Ben, that was something in fact, you're also, by the way, I don't know if you know this, but I'll give you credit for it. And

Pat McCalla

know, I did a lot of public speaking in the last 20, 30 years. I never spoke more on any passage than I did on Micah six eight.

Pat McCalla

And

Ben Homan

your

Ben Homan

he showed

Ben Homan

Right.

Ben Homan

It's a beautiful summary of of the message of redemption. Yeah.

Pat McCalla

Ben Homan

about.

Pat McCalla

something that you would speak to every time you got up. And I fell in love with it, because I do see that. That's the message of God to us.

Pat McCalla

and that's our message to the world.

Ben Homan

right?

Ben Homan

It is. And,

Ben Homan

I love the prophet Micah as well. And this is part of the story of that book, is that, first of all, when he, in the words of Scripture, there's very little autobiographical information that Micah shares with the audiences. the audience. But we do know that he was Micah, a chef, and the people who studied the battles and the conflicts in the Holy Land, realized that that particular village that he was at was a strategic high place for armies to seize as they invaded Israel.

Ben Homan

And so the the, the Bible Expositor is surmise that Micah was probably an eyewitness to traumatic battles, gruesome, difficult battles, in his town. And so here in in modern terms, he probably had post-traumatic syndrome.

Ben Homan

yeah.

Ben Homan

post-traumatic stress. And and so he comes as this messenger and the, the early chapters of the book of Micah are sometimes incredibly graphic in terms of not only the indictment that he has against both the political and religious leaders, people inside of government, people outside of government, people inside the religious matrix, and people outside. And he sees the people that have been left out and he speaks up.

Ben Homan

And then, especially in the first three chapters, but then it continues. And there is a there is a shift in, the fourth chapter of Micah where it talks about the mountain of God and how people from all over the world, all over the world, are streaming to the mountain of God.

Ben Homan

And as I was studying this years ago, an excellent commentator that that helped me with this, the I mean, we all know gravity water does not flow uphill.

Ben Homan

Water flows down and but the image in chapter four of Micah is the peoples of the earth flowing to the mountain

Ben Homan

against gravity, against gravity, against odds. And so it just this

Ben Homan

beautiful picture of God's magnificence and power and his magnetic, incredible intervention in the life of humanity to, to to call people not from one nation or two nations or three nations, but all nations are streaming to the mountain of God.

Ben Homan

It's pretty exciting.

Ben Homan

by.

Ben Homan

Exactly

Pat McCalla

what? What what does it really mean, like fasting, tithing, those are all important things. But but what does God really care about?

Pat McCalla

Doing

Ben Homan

justice?

Ben Homan

Exactly. And the political and religious leaders who were watching

Ben Homan

land and property being taken away from people who had no standing or ability to speak and defend themselves. And so, there's a there's an interesting way to look at some of these passages in Micah about land rights and property rights and, and, ownership and the fact that, many of these leaders remained silent in the face of this injustice.

Ben Homan

And so, yes, it crescendos in Micah six eight, what does he require of us?

Ben Homan

yeah.

Ben Homan

To,

Ben Homan

It's all over the Scripture. You look at the disciples. They were a motley crew.

Ben Homan

if you were going to try to select the movers and shakers to change the world, no way. Not one of them would qualify. And so, God went after the unlikely. And then you look at the the genealogies in, the book of Matthew and the Book of Luke and and peppered in those genealogies are unlikely people that God brought into the lineage of Jesus.

Ben Homan

And and it is all over, the scriptures that God goes after the unlikely.

Ben Homan

Yeah,

Pat McCalla

does.

Pat McCalla

And the unlikely. I think one of the ways that we can define that is those people that can't really do anything for you, right? Like they can't. Again, in our world, a lot of times it's the kiss up and kick down culture, right? Like we're going to we're going to try to get ahead.

Pat McCalla

And that's a culture has been it's always been around. It's not just the American culture. It could be anywhere. But what's so crazy is when we care about what God cares about, you start caring about the people that really can't do anything for you in a sense, right?

Ben Homan

Right. There's

Pat McCalla

no reason to kiss up to them because they're maybe in a lowly place.

Pat McCalla

There's no way to try to kick them down. They're already down.

Pat McCalla

So it's caring deeply for the those that that, that really can't do anything for us, if you will.

Ben Homan

Precisely. Yeah.

Ben Homan

We get blessed in ways that we, Yeah, it's hard to put it into words, but I can I can think of story after story of, you know, just the, the blessing of, how people, grow and bless and thank and it's can be a very beautiful thing.

Pat McCalla

I ask you to share one of those stories? Because let me just set it up this way.

Host

Hey, we hope you've enjoyed this episode so far. Be sure to like and subscribe to not miss a future podcast. Okay, let's get back to the

Pat McCalla

thing.

Pat McCalla

Can I ask you to share one of those stories? Because let me just set it up this way. We were talking before.

Pat McCalla

you're probably the most traveled person that most of our audience will ever meet.

Ben Homan

Million. Yeah.

Ben Homan

You

Ben Homan

in an airport.

Pat McCalla

I'm like, I'm breaking into a jog sometimes trying to keep up with you. I can't believe how fast you can walk from gate to gate in an airport. But

Pat McCalla

look back and for me personally, one of my stories where I saw that and I want to ask you for many years, because you've been all over the world in some of the hardest places in the world.

Pat McCalla

but one of mine was when I was in India and, I was preaching in the small village and, gosh, it breaks me

Ben Homan

was thinking about it, and you're talking about,

Ben Homan

So

Ben Homan

Right. Well, I might take this in an unlikely,

Ben Homan

direction.

Ben Homan

but it is, something that, has happened recently. I was, I was visiting a man, closing in on 90 years of age at a retirement home here in the United States. he was a stroke victim, and and so I was in the dining room of his, retirement home.

Ben Homan

Assisted living, facility. And, due to the stroke, he could not talk more than maybe a syllable every ten minutes. He also could barely sip the soup. And so we sat there for two hours, and it was hard to where you couldn't have a conversation. And and it was one of the most difficult meals that I ever had.

Ben Homan

But there was this opportunity for me to sit with this almost 90 year old, just to be with, well, about a year ago, he passed away. And what I can tell you is that unbeknownst to me, unbeknownst to our ministry, millions of dollars have come to kingdom work as a result of his generosity, including to our ministry. But I can think of four other ministries that this

Ben Homan

man who could not speak and who could barely eat.

Ben Homan

But he could take action and he could make a choice. We were talking about choice earlier.

Ben Homan

You can make a choice to make a difference. And he could have ended his life, you know, sunset and into anger or regret or sorrow or. Why me? But, his sunset took him into. How do I bless and accelerate the ministry of the word all around the world so that to me, that's that's really fresh,

Pat McCalla

Ben. How

Pat McCalla

beautiful. Right. And how that just might make God smile. again, saying, I'm going to use the least of these. That's who I like to use. And here's a guy that can't even speak anymore. I can barely eat, but I'm going to use him and only eternity will tell the number of lives have been impacted because of his.

Ben Homan

Exactly. And it came with, no specific instructions.

Ben Homan

Do whatever you want to do to advance the the ministry of the Word of God. And so it was not an onerous like put my, you know, do this, this or this. No request for his name to be known. And so it's just an honor to be able to see someone behind the scenes.

Ben Homan

Yet, you know, as we were talking earlier, God sees him. God saw him in his inability to do anything. He could barely sip soup, and and hear God is using, his resources and, you know, amazing, amazing, generous ways.

Pat McCalla

a definition of legacy, right? Because, like you said, he passed away about a year ago, and so he's no longer breathing in this life, and yet he still having an impact. That's legacy, isn't it?

Ben Homan

It is.

Ben Homan

Yeah. It is.

Pat McCalla

Well, this is a great transition for us to transition and slightly,

Pat McCalla

you know, again, with your theological philosophical mind, I just want to, to, to hone in a little bit on that.

Pat McCalla

Again. What are your thoughts about that? You know, we talk about here a lot about the power and complexity of human choice, because this podcast actually originated out of Joe Gagliano story. no gray areas. There's a there's a documentary about it. He masterminded the largest sports scandal that they know of in human history in 94, the the the shoe scandal.

Pat McCalla

walked away making millions of dollars. And both him and the point guard, Steven Headache Smith are still, all these years later, facing the consequences of their choices. But we also know that there's a redemptive story with that. So that's really where this all originated. And that's where we talk

Pat McCalla

the fact that we, as humans, have the power that God created us with the power of of choice.

Pat McCalla

But that's complex in that. what are your thoughts on that? This idea that we make our choices and eventually our choices make

Ben Homan

us.

Ben Homan

It is a mystery how this all works together. Let me start, there because, we. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, we we've, filled many trees, printing books and, debates and all of this. So I'm not going to be able to sort.

Ben Homan

Denominations over.

Ben Homan

It. Right? I'm not going to be able to sort it out for people.

Ben Homan

I wake up today, the listeners wake up today, and we have we have choices to make. And so I would simply, bring it into our own experience and realize that we can make that we are conscious actors who who, make decisions

Ben Homan

there can be, you know, path A, B, C, d.

Ben Homan

Actually, there are quite a few choices out there. It's rarely maybe just a fork in the road. And

Ben Homan

I think for us to, to look at this, element of choice as a blessing that God has delegated to us decisions

Ben Homan

who would not have to do it that way.

Ben Homan

Yeah.

Pat McCalla

that's true.

Ben Homan

and so here we are. We are not machines. we are not automatons. We are able to look at our situation. He's given us minds to think. And so that is a blessing. And it's an expression of trust and love on the part of our, our creator. So, I would start from the point of understanding.

Ben Homan

Yes, today we can make choices. Yes. That's a blessing and a privilege.

Ben Homan

well, I enjoy going into grocery stores. the True Confessions here. And yet sometimes it's overwhelming to me because I'll go to the cereal aisle or the nut aisle. There are so many choices, you know. Do you want your cornflakes, you know, flavored this or that, and,

Ben Homan

I do think that maybe one of the stresses that we experience in our modern Western society is that we have more choices than we know what to do with.

Pat McCalla

Yeah, that's a great point, Ben.

Ben Homan

if we went back 200 years, and we were homesteading somewhere in, the middle part of North America,

Ben Homan

and we were getting to the, the age of marriage, you know, how many choices are out there, you know, the. Yeah. So, you know, you might have a conversation with your dad or mom and say, well, there's the Johnson girl, you know, two miles down the road.

Ben Homan

She's about your age.

Ben Homan

and maybe there's the Smith gal. Yeah. You're multiple. It's a multiple choice of maybe four people. Maybe they're more. But today, you know, technology has equipped us with these apps where.

Pat McCalla

could scroll through and have

Ben Homan

You can you can scroll through, and

Ben Homan

I think that we're burdened in this society by being able to make so did have so many options that we, we we get overwhelmed and we get stressed out.

Pat McCalla

And it's such a great point because even again, just because of our age, you and me, our age. And so for our younger listeners, I'm sure they've heard this. Maybe they haven't, but even watch TV when we are growing up. You turn the TV on. You had three choices.

Ben Homan

Ben Homan

You have choices.

Ben Homan

That's right.

Ben Homan

If

Ben Homan

Yeah. So yeah. So it's it's obviously our experience.

Ben Homan

is very different, but let's, let's understand that, you know, we're not going to change the fact that there are thousands and thousands of choices. But I think we need to be honest with ourselves that this creates some inherent stress and burden on our modern society.

Ben Homan

And so as we walk with people, I think we need to understand that this choice. Yes, it's a blessing. Yes, it's a burden.

Ben Homan

Yeah,

Pat McCalla

That's a great point, Ben. Something for us to all think about

Ben Homan

Sure.

Pat McCalla

I think even I mean, I might take away from what you're just saying is I'm going,

Pat McCalla

I probably want to reassess my life a little bit and, and maybe look to see if I can and help limit some choices like that.

Pat McCalla

Maybe just take that right there. May just take a lot of stress off my life.

Pat McCalla

If I just did something like

Ben Homan

it.

Ben Homan

Actually I think it could, Well, yeah. There we go. Yeah, yeah. So, maybe the word that we might,

Ben Homan

use or borrow is simplify. so if you're talking about, you know, 98 choices, that's complicated. If we're talking about five choices, lots simpler. And so this idea of how how do we narrow the choices, what are the criteria that we use to narrow the choices down so that we're, we're limiting ourselves and, and in many ways, I mean, it's a it would be a self conscious decision.

Ben Homan

It would be a choice to limit our choices

Ben Homan

and so that's that would be an intriguing thing to unpack and explore.

Pat McCalla

really intriguing. Ben, you just made me smile. It's a choice to limit our choices. Oh my. We gotta do a podcast on

Ben Homan

Okay.

Ben Homan

on airplanes.

Ben Homan

Oh. I'm sorry.

Ben Homan

Working with organizations. Yeah,

Pat McCalla

that are focused on really in some way, in some form, helping the least lost and lost something that is close to your heart, which I think then is helpful for our audience to understand that when we talk about the power and complexity of human choice, we need to understand if there's someone in our audience is listening.

Pat McCalla

You never travel to a third world country or developing country. You need to understand that the the freedom of choice for the the amount of choice that we get as humans is really limited sometimes just because of socioeconomic background, worldviews, cultural perspectives. For example, if you're a woman in some parts of the world, you have very little choice simply because of the gender you are.

Pat McCalla

So,

Pat McCalla

you've seen much more than most people. How have you seen that to be true?

Ben Homan

Well, let me think of a specific example. I sat with a 19 year old young man in, near Bogota, Colombia. He had, at age 13, been conscripted to fight with, the drug cartel. They came into his village killing people and requiring that the teenage boys, young men, would come fight with them in the jungles. He lost his education.

Ben Homan

He lost his family. He lost his connection to his village. And so peace was potentially coming to to the, to to the nation. It's still complicated there, but he was now sitting with me and with others at age 19, in Bogota, Colombia.

Ben Homan

Needing to take on a new identity because it was no longer safe to have the name that he had grown up with, and he had to surrender the notion of ever going back to his family or his village just for survival.

Ben Homan

So the choices in front of this

Ben Homan

young man and many others, I think there north of 5 million people just in Colombia who have been displaced because of, decade after decade of, narco terrorism. in that nation. And so we need to understand that the again, the element of choice is a responsibility, and that we've been blessed with opportunities here in this country.

Ben Homan

But we need to understand that in many, many contexts, the choices have been really limited. And for him, he lost his education. So here he is, doesn't know how to do math, doesn't read or write. How do you start over? And so,

Ben Homan

back to this, this, notion of, the choice. It is a burden. It is a blessing.

Ben Homan

It's not either or. It is both. And I think for us, we need to have compassion for all of these least and last people to understand that it cannot simply be, well, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and, you know, get a life or make some positive choices. Let's understand that there context has seriously limited what, what, choices there are.

Ben Homan

And then, of course, he was handed an automatic weapon when he was 13 years old. Not a video game where there are automatic weapons, but he was handed the real deal. He watched friends die. He watched village members die. And so reaching to somebody like that, and, I would simply say, May we have compassion for the reality that he may not make all always the best choices.

Ben Homan

Somebody needs to walk with him in that choice making process patiently and understanding and listening. But, you know, that's a dramatic case. But I think that the reality is here. And, you know, a Western society,

Ben Homan

if we look at, all of the people we come in contact with as individuals who, have, the, various impairments that, have, prevented some of the best choices or stood in the way of some of the best choices.

Ben Homan

We ought to have,

Ben Homan

a very highly tuned sense of empathy, care and lack of judgment. and, you know, not criticizing people for what we think might be bad choices. So,

Ben Homan

may we have patience?

Ben Homan

Yeah,

Pat McCalla

I loved your I loved your your words. Compassion, patience, empathy, all things that I think we need to have. And when we look at, what do we have? Almost 7 billion people on our planet. Is that correct?

Ben Homan

Something like.

Ben Homan

That?

Pat McCalla

that.

Pat McCalla

when we look at the 7 billion people in our planet right now, the majority of them actually have limited choices like the story you told is a powerful story.

Pat McCalla

the majority of them will have limited choices because they grew up in some kind of background. Like

Ben Homan

Right.

Pat McCalla

like that. So let me finish our interview with this before

Pat McCalla

we wrap things up. How do you

Pat McCalla

help people who, maybe for the first time, are going to travel to, place and see some of the things that you've seen?

Pat McCalla

first of all, let me just say to our audience, I highly, highly recommend everyone should go to a developing country at least once in their life. It'll change the

Ben Homan

world.

Ben Homan

Right.

Pat McCalla

But but we know that a lot of people, when they go, they really come back and struggle

Pat McCalla

because they see these things and they're like, for me, it was that.

Pat McCalla

That was the thing for me. I came back and like, why? Simply because of where I was born in this world, I have so many opportunities. And I and I had this almost as guilt complex.

Pat McCalla

What would you say to people that maybe are going to go, or maybe you're struggling with that, or maybe going to go for the first time and come back and wrestle with some of those things?

Host

As we're wrapping up this episode. Be sure to leave us a five star review. And if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment on something you'll take away. All right, let's hop back into the remainder of the episode.

Ben Homan

I would recommend

Ben Homan

beforehand reading history about where they're going. not only the, political history, but the, sociological history go back centuries. You know, there are PhD dissertations, there are academic journals. There are outstanding things to, to, to, to learn about different places. before going to, the Dr. Congo, for instance, I read, a book, I believe the name is King Leopold's Ghost, and it's a history of King Leopold of Belgium and the way that he, took advantage of that country is an understatement.

Ben Homan

And and then, of course, you know, if we're just picking on the Dr. Congo, another must read would be Joseph Conrad's The Heart of Darkness, set in the Dr. Congo. So understand

Ben Homan

What has happened before. and so when when we go in, we ought to go in with, empathy and an understanding of what the history is.

Ben Homan

History matters. And,

Ben Homan

I would say not to be prescriptive ahead of time about what the Lord would be asking each person to do. I don't think that there would be a cookie cutter response, but if somebody is going to come back from, you know, whether it's Guatemala or, Bolivia, or another place, to, you know, to ask the Lord to show them what they can do.

Ben Homan

I think, I think once we're back here, one of the very interesting things is that,

Ben Homan

there are likely people from that country in the city that you're living in, and there are probably ways

Ben Homan

before your trip and then after your trip to find what, I think the technical world, the diaspora, the people that have been dispersed all over the land, our own nation, because we have welcomed people from many lands and, and they're facing issues here in this country.

Ben Homan

And there may be a way for one of our listeners to be a bridge to somebody from Senegal

Ben Homan

who is here in the United States of America and is trying to find their way. And the fact that you have been, in their country might blow them away.

Ben Homan

I was walking through an airport, last week, and, I really appreciated that, this particular airport had a map of the world showing the sister cities that that city is connected with, and Pat knows more of the story.

Ben Homan

That was one of the things that we did at food for the hungry was

Ben Homan

we asked our civic leaders which places in the world, is our municipality connected to? And, at food for the hungry, we we, we saw that as an opportunity to connect, specifically with, Chengdu, China, as a sister city of Phenix, Arizona.

Ben Homan

But there are ways right where you're at, even when you come back, the Lord has placed people from other parts of the world, and they might be in, you know, the Thai restaurant that you like to go to or the Vietnamese restaurant or, you know, wherever, but you will find people and and if you go in with an inquisitive heart and a willingness to see people back to this notion of seeing people for who they are, noticing they're not just the kitchen help.

Ben Homan

Yeah.

Ben Homan

But they have,

Ben Homan

dignity and they have identity. And it may mean going to that restaurant 12 or 13 times to be the regular for some of the guards to be some of the walls to be dropped, the guard being left down.

Ben Homan

then you ask and see, what the Lord might do.

Ben Homan

Ben Homan

Yeah. What's what's going on with that? And they said, well,

Ben Homan

that's when the Chinese restaurants close. So this church saw the Chinese restaurant workers, that that was the only time that they would have the opportunity to study the Bible.

Ben Homan

Pat McCalla

Ben Homan

and, the, the elder who was telling me this story said we didn't know.

Ben Homan

Do we do it on such and such a day or the other day? Yeah. That's right. On midnight, you're straddling these two days. And they were sort of like, which, which day do you want to be your anniversary? So,

Ben Homan

They could say their wedding went on for two days.

Ben Homan

Yeah, exactly. It was a festival, a feast.

Ben Homan

so there are places to connect with the diaspora when you get back. and I think also, we need to be patient with some of the people that didn't go on the trip that, they may not be able to, to get or understand the transformative power of being in a, in a distant place and what you went through.

Ben Homan

So there needs to be some, caution there. in our community, we live up in the state of Montana. we had a community forum with, people from, religious backgrounds and also secular backgrounds, a panel about, the conflict in Ukraine. and so showing up, my wife and I, we attended that in a big auditorium of a high school.

Ben Homan

So I would say to people go to places that are outside of the church and show up and then go up and talk to people afterwards. And there are going to be amazing opportunities. So wherever you are, you are even though you don't have to get on a plane to have an international, opportunity to, connect and make an impact

Pat McCalla

have to cross the border across the culture.

Ben Homan

Yes.

Ben Homan

Right. A couple of things. first of all,

Ben Homan

obviously our website, that's langham.org lang am, dawg. It's an obscure name. We know that it's named after a street in London. from whence our ministry emerged. So, Langham talk the other thing, that people can do, wherever you get your podcasts, you go in there and, and you type in on mission with Chris.

Ben Homan

Right on mission with Chris. Right. And, Chris is my Irish colleague, lives in central London, and he has a lengthy 45 to 50 minute interviews with theological and religious leaders from all over the world. so if you want to listen to a deep conversation with a Palestinian Christian, a Filipino Christian, a Bolivian Christian, go to UN mission with Chris, right?

Ben Homan

Yeah.

Pat McCalla

of the intellectual giants. Theological giants, we might say

Ben Homan

Yes.

Ben Homan

Wouldn't you agree?

Ben Homan

Yeah. Even the last year, one of, Christianity today's top book awards went to, to Chris.

Ben Homan

you know, I, I joke with them. He's a good friend, that he has a serious problem because he cannot stop writing books. And. Yeah, so he needs to be in some kind of, you know, he needs to be in.

Pat McCalla

about this thick for the people that are watching.

Pat McCalla

And you don't just breeze through it. You have to, like, reread a sentence every once in awhile to go, like, wait, what

Ben Homan

Yeah, yeah. And, Chris is, his PhD is in,

Ben Homan

ethics, Old Testament ethics for the people of God and, but but his ability to integrate the whole of Scripture is just, remarkable.

Ben Homan

he's a trusted voice.

Pat McCalla

man, if he's ever in town, we'd love to have him on.

Ben Homan

Okay.

Ben Homan

Yes. Friends

Ben Homan

table.

Ben Homan

Oh, gosh.

Ben Homan

Yeah, it's

Pat McCalla

just different. Well,

Pat McCalla

Ben, this is where we do this.

Pat McCalla

Something that's just kind of fun at the end of the

Ben Homan

it's fun

Pat McCalla

for the audience because they've heard you here for 45 minutes to an hour, and then you're going to give just three statements.

Pat McCalla

Two of them will be true, one will be a lie. And we're going to try to guess which one the liars.

Ben Homan

okay.

Ben Homan

statement number one, my father attended two Academy Award Oscar,

Ben Homan

ceremonies. Okay. Number two, I appeared in a cameo role in a prize winning Chinese film.

Pat McCalla

Okay.

Ben Homan

number three, my mother went to school with,

Ben Homan

Bob Denver of Gilligan's Island.

Ben Homan

Yeah.

Pat McCalla

Oh, man.

Pat McCalla

You know, you should play poker because I'm trying to give a tell. I'm looking at you while you're saying those three, trying to get some kind of tell with your face and you're not giving anything away,

Pat McCalla

you don't even have sunglasses on, Ben.

Ben Homan

That's right.

Ben Homan

But I you know, you told me ahead of time to come up with, these statements and,

Ben Homan

I thought, well, I'm going to stay in the entertainment realm. So they're all in the entertainment realm.

Pat McCalla

okay. I got I'm just. I'm just guessing. I don't even have any leads on this one. I'm going to just guess that you did the cameo because you've traveled so much. You know, you spent quite a bit of time in China. So I'm going to say that one's true. You did a cameo role in a Chinese film.

Ben Homan

That is true, I played it. I played a journalist in a, a Chinese film.

Ben Homan

the English translation is that the, the film was called Juvenile Delinquents, and it won a prize in, in China. And, it actually gave me a fascinating opportunity to visit

Ben Homan

a juvenile detention facility, in, in Shanghai.

Pat McCalla

when we when we post this, I don't know when this is going to drop our podcast, but can we add a descriptor, Chinese movie star Benjamin,

Ben Homan

That might be an exaggeration

Pat McCalla

my next one I think I'm going to go with I'm going to guess that because you're from Southern California.

Pat McCalla

So I think I'm going to guess that your dad actually attended to,

Pat McCalla

Academy Award ceremonies. Did. That's true.

Ben Homan

That is true. Well done, well done. He was,

Ben Homan

a lighting technician. Okay. but he had to, rent a tuxedo and, to show up to the Academy Awards and help them with their, their lighting and, and so, yeah, he was, local 33, the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, but he attended two Oscars.

Ben Homan

on the technical side.

Pat McCalla

mom did not know

Pat McCalla

Mr. Gilligan?

Ben Homan

No, but there's a technical, technical? There had to be technical. She did go to school with Alan Hale junior, the skipper on Gilligan's Island, but not Bob Denver.

Ben Homan

Yeah,

Pat McCalla

Yeah. Okay.

Ben Homan

so

Ben Homan

Great to see you.

Ben Homan

Let's keep it.

Ben Homan

Going.

Pat McCalla

Thank you.

Host

As we close this episode, we hope you've been encouraged to embrace the paradox of choice with a new perspective.

Host

Make sure to like, subscribe, and if you love this episode, would you please leave us a five star review? Thanks for joining us today on the No Gray Areas podcast. We'll see you next time.