Shownotes
Can high salaries and automation shape the future of Intel in Ohio? Explore the impact of domestic chip production on the global stage and the role of technology in reshaping the workforce.
Redistricting in Ohio remains a hot topic. From bipartisan elements to concerns about gerrymandering, the debate continues.
Cybersecurity is a growing concern. Hear how the city of Columbus faced a hacker's ransom demand and the ripple effects on personal and business data.
The shifting cost of postage and customer service woes are all too relatable. Join us as we discuss rising rates, the convenience of online payments, and the challenges with postal services.
Common Sense Takeaways
Legal decisions, especially involving sensitive information or national security, are often complicated and can lead to speculation and varied interpretations.
Events involving agencies like the Secret Service demonstrate concerns over the lack of transparency and accountability, fostering public distrust and conspiracy theories.
Intel's massive layoffs and cost-cutting measures raise questions about future job opportunities in Ohio as the company invests in new facilities that may rely heavily on automation.
Domestic production of chips is crucial due to global supply chain vulnerabilities and geopolitical tensions, especially with Taiwan's dominance in the industry.
Ohio's redistricting process is fraught with complexities and potential biases. There is debate over a proposed constitutional amendment and the influence of political parties in ensuring fairness.
The adoption of AI in legal research and security screenings presents both opportunities and challenges, with concerns about reliability, bias, and compliance with constitutional standards.
Recent hacking incidents, such as in Columbus, highlight the significant risks and widespread impacts of cyber attacks on local governments and essential services.
The inclusion of transgender athletes in gender-specific sports remains a contentious issue, with debates over fairness akin to those about the use of performance-enhancing drugs.
Rising postage and shipping costs, coupled with inconsistent customer service, demonstrate issues within the postal system, despite the convenience of online billing and transactions.
Government agencies like NASA are criticized for deviating from their core missions due to political influences and funding cuts, calling for a focus on efficiency and accountability.
Common Sense Moments
00:00 Columbus city hacked, demands $2 million ransom.
09:49 AI software assessing individuals for potential threats.
14:32 AI software reliability and legal implications.
19:53 Defense attorney unable to cross examine witness.
22:52 Plea deal for terrorists in Guantanamo debated.
31:34 Both parties disturbed by Secret Service situation.
37:32 Summarizing: Depoliticize civil service creates entrenched, unmovable bureaucracy.
39:54 Concerned about jobs at Ohio's new Intel plant.
48:25 Support for gender transitions but concerns about fairness.
49:48 Concerns about mismatched fighters in the ring.
01:04:14 Ohio's ballot board chooses judges for redistricting.
01:08:36 Honesty is pushing for liberal constitutional amendment.
01:12:59 Ohio's Legislative Service Commission drafts proposed laws.
Neil deGrasse Tyson says AI will KILL the INTERNET! | The Don Lemon Show
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Copyright 2024 Common Sense Ohio
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/
Transcripts
Alright. Here we are. August 2, 2024, Common Sense Ohio, making it happen at all costs. What's the price of Common Sense? It's it's it's got no there is no limit to what we will do to bring common sense. I am driving in the car. We've got Norm and Brett at the studio, and we are bringing Common Sense Ohio to you remotely. 2nd week in a row. I think Norm and I were both gone last week, guys, but, this is how important the show is to us.
Steve Palmer [:And, you know, for that matter, you can check us out at commonsenseohioshow.com. And if you wanna be a sponsor given the importance of how or how how important we take this, you too could be important and become a sponsor. Check us out at commonsenseohohohohohohohohohohoh.com. You can leave us a note. You can check us out on all the regular social media platforms. Lots of people do. I saw Norm there was a comment, on, on one of our discussions last week, and, you know, he responded. So, I mean, look.
Steve Palmer [:The the audience is interacting, and that only, spreads the common sense that much further. So we love it when people participate. As I am driving here, I do not have a World War 2 fact of the day, but, the show goes on. So, guys, I I'll let you kick it off from the studio.
Norm Murdock [:Well, a a hacking has happened with the city of Columbus. It's, occurred apparently a month ago, and the public is just now finding out more details. Evidently, they want, $2,000,000 this, consortium of hackers called Resideo, want $2,000,000 or I I can't believe Bitcoin is worth this much, or 30 Bitcoins. $2,000,000 or 30 Bitcoins in order to restore or or take down off the dark web, the entire database of the of the city of Columbus. It's, it it's it's truly mind blowing and, some of the spin off effects is, it pair particularly hitting the firemen and police, the their personnel and banking records. So the Columbus Police Union has asked that they be issued paper checks instead of direct deposit for their, salaries. And, the, city refused to do that, Instead, providing them with with some kind of like, LifeLock, software or something similar to that so that they can check their credit rating and find out if they have, you know, had their identity stolen. But it's interesting that the solution in both some of the ballot, you know, voting, controversies involving software and now this hacking that people wanna go back to paper.
Norm Murdock [:So,
Steve Palmer [:You know, there there's there's some legal there's some interesting legal issues going on. So in my field, guys, I have obviously, I deal with sensitive information. I know accountants deal with sensitive information and banks and and such. But from a private business standpoint, I get it. Banks are sort of private, sort of. But from a small business standpoint, we'll say, we're obligated to take some measures. And by obligated, I mean, if we don't, we risk a lawsuit. And for attorneys, they've raised the bar on what we have to do to protect our data.
Steve Palmer [:And, you know, that caused me a couple years ago to spend a bunch of dollars, updating everything, you know, getting rid of the servers and and, encrypting everything, getting data in the clouds where it's protected with, you know, whatever whatever it is. And you then you just wonder, well, is it really protected? Or if I just paid a bunch of money in these hackers, it's this cat and mouse game, and it sounds like the cats won this one. And then you wonder I hate to say this, but I think the government pretty much sucks at most things. And, and did they spend the dollars that they're sort of implicitly requiring us to spend to protect data. And, I hope they did. I hope they had the state of the art security. But, Norm, any any input on on how this occurs? Like, what how does this possibly happen?
Norm Murdock [:Apparently, that so there was, you know, a software guy explaining on, one of the radio stations as a guest, and he said what they what they did was implanted some kind of a virus, you know, months months ago, and then let it let it matriculate throughout the the system. And they are actually able now to use the city of Columbus's, traffic cameras. Like like this group can see everything the city of Columbus can see, using their entire, you know, IT system, including traffic cameras. They were it's not I mean, it's just off the hook.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Well, and and, you know, I I think, we need to take a look at it even deeper. You know, this doesn't just doesn't affect city employees to a certain degree. Yours truly gets paid by the city to do some podcasting for one of their entities. Wow. So, my and again, I realized, you know what? My stuff's in the dark web. I'm sure it is. I mean, everybody's is, but it's when you get this type of break in.
Brett Johnson [:You kinda go, woah. Wait a minute. I I I now, I get I literally get a paper check from them though. They cut me a paper check which is interesting. Yeah. I may be below the bar of of of like, okay. We don't spend that much money with you so we'll cut you a check. You know, there may be a 50,000 or a 100,000 or a $150,000 threshold possibly.
Norm Murdock [:But
Brett Johnson [:Well, I I it's it's it's amazing how it it touches everybody quite frankly.
Steve Palmer [:Well, I mean, a couple observations there. I mean, we all are we all are implicated in theory. I mean Yeah. I pay my I pay my Columbus taxes via the web. Mhmm. You know, that that information is there, for the business as well as personal. And so all of those are electronic transactions now, and you wonder, you know. It's like, how safe are we really? And then beyond that though, I I almost I was laughing out loud when I heard Norm talk about these traffic cameras.
Steve Palmer [:Like, this is a movie, guys. You can just see these terrorists. Oh, I mean, like, you you think it's impossible in in the movies when the terrorists take over traffic cameras and and start causing havoc, but, apparently, it does happen. And, apparently, it's happened right here in the big city of Columbus.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You know, a few years ago, the exact same thing happened in the county where I live, Licking County, Ohio, where the entire county's, day data system was was hacked, and they demanded ransom like they they are in the city of Columbus case. The Licking County did not pay it, but it took them, I think, 6 weeks, to completely rebuild their IT system. And in the meantime, Steve, there were no court hearings. Like, everything was canceled that the county had any kind of electronic agenda or note keeping or scheduling. All those systems were were down for a month and a half, I believe. And, so the repercussions, as you say, for regular citizens, it's not just, you know, people getting their salaries paid and whether it's direct deposit or checking. It's the entire infrastructure.
Norm Murdock [:And, wow. I mean, this yeah. Go ahead.
Steve Palmer [:Norm, I think what we should do we didn't I didn't realize this. I didn't know the story. Otherwise, I think you and I both would have thought of this. We had to get our guy. We had to get our IT guy and get his insight into this.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. That'd be great. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:He he's the one that helped me with my security in the in the business, and I know yours too. Yeah. We gotta get him involved and and figure out exactly how this happens. I mean, I've heard tale of people, like, leaving thumb drives and jump drives around. And as soon as one person sticks in a computer, it's really a a Trojan horse.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. And even that scenario blows my mind. Why would anyone pick up a thumb drive in a parking lot and wanna see what's on it? Why would you do that? That is moronic. It is moronic.
Steve Palmer [:People do it. The people do it. People I I I talking about Licki County, that's one of the places normal we get discovery in a DUI case. Discovery comes in the form of paper documents, which a lot of times are transferred electronically as PDFs. But then there's video. So we have these long, body worn video camera footage. So in in the old days, we had no cameras. Then we got dash cams, which are sort of these, I don't know, horrible VHS footage, and then it got digital.
Steve Palmer [:And now we have not only dash cams facing forward, we have dash cams facing backwards in the back seat at the same time. And now we have body worn cameras by every cop. Yeah. At least this footage you know, so the footage is it's huge. I mean, it it's it's a pain in the backside. But we get it on jump drives, and we have to send jump drives out. The prosecutors, they then download the footage onto our jump drive and send it back. And and we had this long rash of time during, I don't know, the the last few years where we don't get them back, and, you know, they come back empty.
Steve Palmer [:People are stealing the jump drives from the envelopes.
Norm Murdock [:Jeez. And it's,
Steve Palmer [:like, what are they doing with it? But then you gotta be careful. Like, people people are will go to no end or no all lengths to to rip you off and and hassle you.
Norm Murdock [:Well, I I I'd like to so, Steve, if you'll put on your law professor hat, this is a question that has been kind of burning in me for a while. And as people may know from previous podcasts, podcasts, I have a law degree, but I've never practiced law. I became a lobbyist and went into business and other things. So I never I never, you know, no no continuing legal education, no passing the bar, none of that for me. But, Steve, if if you'll put on your professor hat, I'm I'm wondering about with this rollout of AI, at various security posts. So I I just heard the Columbus Zoo, for example, and I and I believe the airports are doing this and and, maybe concert venues where they're going to have software look at a person and assess them and make a judgment about whether that person is packing a gun or, or other, you know, contraband, things that would not be allowed within that venue. And I'm wondering, would AI software amount to reasonable cause that you know, it's one thing to say, hey. We think you got a gun so you can't come in to the baseball game.
Norm Murdock [:Go away. It would be another thing if they use this AI. I I I'm guessing, Steve, if if they would say, hey. That's reasonable cause for the officer here to do a body search and perhaps, you know, lead to legal consequences for the person being searched. Can you comment on that? Yeah. I'm curious. What what what do you think it where are we going with all this?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. There there's a there's a lot to unpack there. The first thing we should unpack is who is they? Who's doing this? So if it's a private concert venue, if it's if it's my office, if it's your business, if it's Brett's business, if we're just say it's a hotel or say it's a, you know, a seminar you go to, they're if they're using AI to, I guess, screen and target and profile might be the best word.
Norm Murdock [:Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:Participants and either not permit them in or exclude them or say you're gonna be subject to a search now. That is different than if the police are doing it, say, on the side of the road or say the police are doing it at the airport or, some other area. Because what you have to have in order to trigger a constitutional violation is state action. So for instance, this comes up all the time or traditionally anyway in in hotels. You've got the hotel, service staff goes through a room. They find a duffle bag full of cocaine and guns in the in the closet or something like that. And they call the police and search, and the police come and they search the bag and, you know, they they find the cocaine and the person gets charged. The issue is whether that search was conducted by the government because clearly, they're you know, it's a there's a search and a seizure.
Steve Palmer [:And the answer is no, generally speaking. There's an exception though where the police are acting or where the private individuals are acting as agents on behalf of the police. So if the police say, hey. Look. We've got this group of folks in your hotel. We've been watching them. Would you please let us know if they leave any bags behind and and look in them for us? Well, clearly, now there is state action. So the first question is who's doing the searching? Who's doing the screening? Who's doing the profiling with the AI software? Assuming you have government action in order to, say do a pat down search of somebody, you have to have something called reasonable suspicion.
Steve Palmer [:Reasonable suspicion means that an ordinary person, would think, say, sort of commonly that criminal activity is afoot. And, you know, believe it or not, a lot of this case law really starts in Ohio, and this goes all the way back, I think, to a 1964 case called Terry versus Ohio. And this is a general Terry stop as a result of that. So if if somebody's making furtive gestures or if somebody is the police see a transaction that looks suspiciously like a narcotics transaction, then, they may have an they may have reasonable suspicion to go, conduct a Terry stop and eventually a pat down search. So now the question you're posing is whether AI software can provide the reasonable suspicion for a Terry stop. And I I I think, ultimately, it it has to go there in some level. It's gonna get up to the US Supreme Court, and they're gonna have to figure this out. And it's gonna be evaluated on case by case facts.
Steve Palmer [:What did the AI software, conclude? What's the reliability of the software? All these questions are gonna have to be answered, and there's gonna be legal determinations about what the AI the the the validity of the AI software. I mean, look, we pull people over because of a laser or a radar. So now we're gonna do it based on AI software. So that you can see it you can see the the the the islands connecting, you know, the archipelago connecting where you're gonna have a situation where eventually, I think the courts will say that AI software can form reasonable suspicion. The other thing, guys, is is, a search conducted, let's say, like, a dog sniff is not a search because it's not a person. So, you know, eventually, you can just sort of see as an AI screen an actual search, and the answer may be no. So there might be another way around this whole mess. But it's an interesting very interesting proposition, and I think we're gonna see lots of 4th amendment, cases and jurisprudence stem from it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. So, just to be clear in my own mind, so if a dog, leaps up and sniffs your pocket and it's a it's a drug dog, that does provide, reasonable suspicion. If a dog points out a person by smell, does it Yes. Oh, wow. Wow. So you could see the parallel there with AI then, I I guess.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. So I think the case was United States versus Place, p l a c e. I might be wrong on that. But, yeah, dog sniff is not a search. And, you know, now there's other things that you have to take into consideration, though. So a lot of times, dogs are dog sniffs happen on the side of the road. You get pulled over and, you know, lo and behold, it just is a coincidentally, you know, a state trooper has a dog in his car ready to run around and sniff your car. Well, the dog sniff is not a search, but what what is a 4th Amendment problem is if the police have unlawfully delayed with the stop.
Steve Palmer [:So if there's no reason to hold you or hold an individual and, keep them there, then then the search by the dog or the AI may not be a problem, but the detention without cause may be a problem.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Steve Palmer [:So Yeah. There there's there's nuances that will start getting layered upon or layered on top of this.
Norm Murdock [:Well, thank you for that. It it's it's it's been eating at me because as we know, you know, AI is only as good as the programming. And the programming on on some of these, AI, you know, things have I mean, it's been horrendous. They're, you know I mean, there's even been lawyers that have turned in AI written briefs, and the judges have rejected them as just gibberish. You know? So, obviously, not yours and not most lawyers, but in a few cases where the AI software just did not live up to its billing, as as competent, basically.
Steve Palmer [:Well, you know, it's it's interesting. I have law students working for me regularly, and and, currently, they are relying on AI to do a lot of drafting and a lot of research in law schools. They're learning how to do it, and the various legal research platforms Wow. Have, AI capabilities. Now I'm gonna tell you a story. It's very interesting. I was working on a legal brief for the Court of Appeals, and an issue came up sort of at the last minute as it does. You know, it's like, hey.
Steve Palmer [:I wonder if I wonder what the law is on this particular evidentiary issue. And we ran it through an AI system, and it spat out a 2 or 3 paragraph memo that seemed very favorable to us citing cases in Ohio and and and and basically spelling out the legal arguments, IRAC, you know, issue, rule, and application, and the conclusion, analysis and conclusion of what's going on. I thought, wow. This is awesome. But, you know, there's cases out there and situations, like you said, Norm, where lawyers are getting in trouble for submitting AI briefs. So I I pulled up the case law that was cited by this AI software, and it was the opposite. It it
Norm Murdock [:it Oh my god. Wrong.
Steve Palmer [:Oh my god. It was it was painfully and blatantly wrong.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, wow. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. It's it's going down this rabbit hole just a bit more. I ran across this video. You guys have heard of Neil deGrasse Tyson. Yes. You know? Yes. And he made a comment on, the Don Lemon show. I had to pull the video up because I didn't wanna misquote him, but it's it's gonna be a summary of it.
Brett Johnson [:But he is projecting that the potentials of AI such as the deep fakes and misinformation that, you know, Steve's talking about will be the downfall of Internet. Okay. There's too much information out there that's wrong Yeah. Or misleading Sure. That it cannot discern Yeah. And we cannot make it discern it. It can only grab what we tell it to grab. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:So, the more crap that's out there, the more likely we will not be able to rely on any answer
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:We get from the Internet. If you're utilizing AI, I guess. But, I mean, how far does it in regards to Well, look. Making it untrue the whole Internet untruthful or or or it's making it very difficult to decipher it. Let's put it that way.
Steve Palmer [:Well well, look, guys. Put on your foil hats here because the issue I'm talking about along those lines, Brad, is this. In my case, the one I was working on, it had to do with whether the the issue simplified was whether a defense attorney could cross examine a witness ab about her bias because this witness was testifying against the defendant's client. And the defendant was accused of committing some misconduct on the witness's girlfriend. The witness was also a girl, so it was a gay relationship. And, you know, I as I as I got the answer through AI, I wondered if it was filtered through a, you know, sort of a a woke ideology about what somebody wanted the answer to be. And, you know, I don't I I think I as I as I analyze why we got the wrong answer, I think I came to a conclusion that was no. It had nothing to do with that.
Steve Palmer [:There was some other nuance to how the decisions that are relied upon were written in something called dicta norm where dicta doesn't support decisions. It's it's more of a, it's outside the realm of what is necessary for the case. But it it made me wonder, you know, if if we're dealing with a guilt relationship, is is or is there are the powers that be trying to steer that? Because we've all had this experience when this stuff first came out. I think we're in the table doing it where we're googling things
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And getting and you can't get certain answers. So if you, you know, the the the famous ones are, like, write me a poem about the positive aspects of Donald Trump, and it won't do it, but it'll do it for Biden.
Brett Johnson [:You know?
Steve Palmer [:It's like it's, it's still governed by humans, and humans are inherently flawed as we all know from our faith. And, so you can't rely on things like that because, ultimately, it comes back to humans. Now when when AI gets its own intelligence, not artificial but its own where it can start thinking on its own, that's when it gets really scary.
Norm Murdock [:Yes. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Hey, Steve, Brett, dealing is staying with the legal theme here. I'm curious what you 2 guys think about this, plea deal that was announced yesterday involving the 911, planners? You know, the guy that looked like, John Belushi and, and then there was another guy that they have down at Gitmo, who actually cut the head off of, I guess, a couple of of, prisoners that, ISIS or, you know, Al Qaeda had had captured. And so the very guy who took a sword cut off heads, the guy who planned, 911 that looks like Belushi and and a third guy. They've been in Gitmo this whole time. And, of course, the information, you know, and their confessions were somewhat, drawn out or maybe completely drawn out, using waterboarding.
Norm Murdock [:And so this has been kinda corked up all these years while they, while they have been in Gitmo. And I guess yesterday, the Department of Defense told the White House the White House appear is claiming they had no advanced knowledge that this was taking place, that the Department of Defense's lawyers had reached a plea bargain, with the, attorneys for the 3, terrorists in in Gitmo that they'll they'll get life's they'll they're gonna have life sentences, but no death penalty is essentially the the plea deal. And I'm just curious, you know, what you guys think about that because, obviously, they killed 3,000 people. You know? And and it's like, you know, hey. Death penalty sounds pretty good to me, regardless of how they extracted because these are combatants. This isn't like a criminal thing to me. This is like warfare and, you know, they're they're, they violated the the tenants of, of of civilization. You know? So, I mean, I don't know.
Norm Murdock [:I'm I'm I
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I I I don't know enough about this. Is this a plea in a criminal court, or is there a, is this a war crime court?
Norm Murdock [:Well, I think, Steve, I think that it's a military court. So I think they're being tried as military combatants against the United States. So, like, you know, think of u boat commanders and things like that, that we tried in our military courts or the Japanese, you know, the the army, the hierarchy that were were tried in Japan or the Nuremberg trials. Think of those kind of military trials.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. And I think the rule I don't know the rules in those in in how that works. I mean, I hate to use the word Mickey Mouse court or kangaroo court, but sometimes because I'm sure there's rules. I'm sure it's standardized. But so I I I don't know if I know enough to comment on that at least, accurately. I can certainly offer some speculation, though. And I think sometimes you see these headlines, and the people on one side of the equation will say, you know, the the the current regime is soft on on, 911 tariffs. On the other hand, there may have been a reason for the deal.
Steve Palmer [:You know? There's always a reason for for negotiations, and nobody ever feels good about negotiation. But you you or nobody ever feels like they won completely, but sometimes that's that's best. You know? So maybe they got information from these people, and it was worthy of a deal. Maybe, there was a huge problem, behind the scenes with something that happened during investigation, and the government didn't want that to come out. Or maybe because of by doing it, by having a trial, there would be sensitive information that the defense could present.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:That would compromise other cases or other activities by the government. So there's always more to it.
Norm Murdock [:Like like video of the CIA, doing the waterboarding on these guys would probably be exhibit number 1. Right?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yeah. But even beyond that, though, like, what if what if there's other sensitive information that that we don't want to come out because of ongoing investigations of current terrorists?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You know? So and and let's not sneeze at a life sentence. You know? I think that to some extent, if you look at the ideology of the terrorist, they might be happier with a life with with a death penalty. Than sitting in prison for life. You know? Oh, good. Good point. Or or
Brett Johnson [:it could be It's not always Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I
Brett Johnson [:was gonna think of the opposite. I'm kinda surprised they don't wanna be killed to be a
Norm Murdock [:martyr. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I mean Yeah. That's what I mean.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so it's really kind of opposite of what they want.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You
Brett Johnson [:know, even though it's a plea deal, but it we we kinda win. They don't become a martyr. Yeah. That was the first thing came on my mind. But, yeah, I know. Those military courts and again, I'm no absolutely not even close to being a lawyer, but I've heard you guys talk about it and, you know, you hear about in the news and said to them, the military courts are just totally different. Yeah. Then what we even grasp on why they do things and but you're right.
Brett Johnson [:I think that that may be a good point that let's just stop this right now because there are a lot of stuff we don't wanna come out in further investigations or reports and stuff and that stops it. Yeah. Yeah. It could be I
Steve Palmer [:mean, look, I've had cases disappear, like, even, like, weird state court cases, because there's a there's a contemporaneous federal investigation on something that's, like, remotely related, and the federal government just does not want to even have any risk that it's gonna compromise the other investigation. So Yeah. This is it's not an uncommon scenario. It it it happens.
Norm Murdock [:You know, turning a little bit now to the, you know, the Secret Service has been testifying, in DC in front of the the house and the senate. You know, the new the new acting director, since the the one during Trump's assassination, Kim Cheadle, she, resigned. So they have an acting director. And it's interesting to me that he has admitted that prior statements by the Secret Service were just outright. Now he didn't use the word lie, but he said they were inaccurate. And I'll call them lies. Like, one of one of the things in the immediate aftermath of Trump being shot was some claims by the RNC that the Trump campaign had asked for enhanced, Secret Service protection. And the secret service said, oh, no.
Norm Murdock [:No. No. They never asked for any they they were not they didn't ask and they were never turned down on any additional protection. And he admitted in front of congress that actually the Trump campaign did ask for more protection and it was turned down. And then the other thing are various details they are now admitting are were bullshit. Like like the cop like like the the the counter snipers were not up on that roof that the sniper used because it had too steep of a pitch. You know, things like that. They have they have now so they're admitting these misstatements, which I'll call lies.
Norm Murdock [:And I'm just wondering, you know, like, we have, guys in prison because they wouldn't go and testify in front of congress or that they lied and, you know, and and they were they were therefore asked to be indicted by the DOJ, for lying to congress. And I'm just wondering, like, it's amazing to me that these people tell these lies, and then, like, they're not held accountable. And it it and these are government officials that are just, you know, gaslighting us. And, it's disturbing to me that they don't ever seem to get fired. They they don't ever nothing happens to them. Right. You know? And it's irritating as hell. Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I find this gross. I mean, look. These people like, the the response out of this is, was inadequate to say the least. Nobody believed that the roof was too steep. I mean, they're just feeding us a bunch of BS. Yeah. And and it and it makes you wonder why.
Steve Palmer [:This is why transparency in the government is so critical because I'm not the first person to jump to conspiracy theories. But when this kind of crap happens, as I've said 100 of times, it creates a constellation of stars that easily can be connected to form a conspiracy theory. And equally plausible is gross incompetence and human, and the and the human flaw, at the core of it. You know, people don't wanna admit when they screwed up, so they start making stupid excuses like your kids do. Yeah. And what is this? I don't know. But it's fueling conspiracy theories.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. It
Steve Palmer [:is. Isn't necessary. And if they would just said, look. We effed up, guys. We dropped the ball on this. We're we're working on it, and we're gonna have a full analysis and and investigation. We'll tell you why. You know, that would have been better than than the initial excuses and BS that came out.
Brett Johnson [:Well and everybody understands that situation that okay. So, if if the Trump team did ask for more protection and we, you know, the government says no. Okay. Explain why that you felt that you felt there was enough protection. If that needs to be reevaluated, then reevaluate how many people need to protect them, you know, the candidates. That's fine. Maybe we don't if they feel that protocol was held, maybe that protocol's wrong now. And and when now we get to go through this crap of lies, when we're not fixed anything.
Brett Johnson [:We've not fixed the damn thing. We haven't protected the people we need to protect because you're learning about it.
Norm Murdock [:You know, the one the one silver lining that, you know, I'd like to point out because I'm so critical a lot of times of Democrats. But I would like to point out in this case that it seems like both sides of the aisle are as deeply disturbed as the other about this situation because after all, the protectees are of both parties. And and the Secret Service needs to protect president Biden and vice president Harris, you know, to to to to a a obviously, to a high professional degree at just like they need to protect past presidents like, Bush and Obama and Trump. And it's like and and Jimmy Carter. And it's like, hey, guys. This should not and and I'm glad it has. It it looks like they're proceeding on a bipartisan basis with outrage from both sides of the aisle that the Secret Service is not being forthcoming. So I'm encouraged by that.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I I'm I'm encouraged by that sort of.
Brett Johnson [:Okay. Here's
Steve Palmer [:what I'm not encouraged by. Okay. Like, there are people running the Secret Service or making decisions that are clearly incompetent. And and I I mean that incompetent or maybe I should say it a little softer. Not capable of doing the job effectively. Mhmm. And I would like to know why that is. You know, you got a hunch that what we're doing is we're pointing people to positions.
Steve Palmer [:I say we because both parties do this. We appoint people to positions as sort of like, I hate to say political favor, but
Brett Johnson [:Well, but it but that's exactly what you're Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:You're saying feather. Featherbed. That's what you're talking about. Sure.
Steve Palmer [:Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And these people aren't qualified to do the damn job. Yes. Like, Norm, in my business or your business and Brett in your business, we wouldn't hire people. Like, I wouldn't hire my buddy to be my law clerk just because he's my buddy and he and he, helped me out years ago. It's like because he's not competent to do the job.
Steve Palmer [:So when I use the word incompetent, I mean that. He's not competent to do the job. Maybe they're competent in other areas. Maybe they're very capable humans, but it doesn't mean that you can go be a, a small a, rare car parts dealer. You know? You you you you you you can't it it takes years of experience to be good at that stuff, and we're pointing and elevating people to positions that they're not qualified to do. And it we call that failing upward in the case of Kamala Harris, but I didn't say that out loud, did I? But it
Norm Murdock [:Well, that's that that's a very fair you know, Steven, I think the other thing you might be driving at, tell me if I'm wrong, is many of these agencies in recent years, for a variety of political reasons have have decided to, like, refocus on things that are not their core mission. And, you know, another good example is NASA. NASA has decided, you know, to to for some reason, instead of exploring space and getting back to the moon or going to Mars or figuring out solar flares or or whatever, you know, space, exploration, they they for a while, and I don't know, maybe still are, they seem obsessed with trying to prove or trying to provide evidence for people that are in the green movement or you know?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. They they became a a climatology study group.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It's, if they're not that they're they're not even independent about it. You know, they're they're they're partisan about it Yeah. Or biased about it. Yeah. Like, NASA people don't know that. NASA became the new client agenda group. You know, that's all that is. They just repurposed NASA and made it, global warming.
Brett Johnson [:Well, it could be the lack of doing what they should be doing. You know, because they got they got if I remember correctly, they got some money pulled from them to do what they were their objectives to do. So then they gotta go find something to do. So you leave this void of Yeah. What can we do so we can survive? And then all of a sudden, the green. And I think it's inherent with anything.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You're right. Hate the group. Obama really defunded this.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So it's one of those okay to survive. Defunded NASA. Yeah. To to survive, what do we need to do? Okay. Let's go here. You know, it's kind of tangent tangential.
Norm Murdock [:You're right. Yeah. That that you know, they were trying then to please him. Yeah. So let's please Al Gore and and president Obama. Let's let's do the things they like. And it's like, no, guys. You know, you need to focus on your core mission and not be, you know, changeable as the political winds shift back and forth.
Brett Johnson [:Even even though you've lost some money, you still can do in a limited capacity Yeah. To do what you can do. Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:Fix Look. Yeah. I mean, dare I say, shut the damn doors. Look. This is the problem with government. This is the problem with the administrative state of government. And I'm not suggesting we didn't that NASA isn't isn't good and we shouldn't have NASA. What I'm suggesting is if it is decided by the executive branch of government, which for those who don't know, happens to, control all the administrative branches of government, that they're gonna shut down NASA.
Steve Palmer [:Well, then shut it down. We don't need to pay these people anymore. Instead, they they just, they shift sideways and they're still collecting checks. And so it that's this is the problem with a non representative state of government or branch of government like the administrative bodies. That there there is no oversight really aside from the president or the executive branch. We don't we, the people, don't get to say, who's hired and who's fired and what the what their rule making is. And and this is the this is what we've been harping about with the Chevron doctrine and or the overturning of the Chevron doctrine. It's like they're they're starting to carve away as a court is starting to carve away a little bit at the at the discretionary power of these govern of these branches of government.
Norm Murdock [:Well, this
Steve Palmer [:But No. You're you're If this decided that NASA is not necessary, then why are we freaking paying them?
Brett Johnson [:Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think overall what we're trying to say is to them. I'm gonna it's just do your job or we want to pay people to do their job very well whether whether you work for the government or not. Just do what you're supposed to do.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You know? Uh-huh. When they installed selective service, you know, which was the ideas we're gonna depoliticize filling up the federal ranks with, you know, civil civil service, not selective, civil service. And and, you know, that these people will then become, functionaries rather than, you know, owing their livelihoods to whoever happens to be in office. They would they would get to be politically independent and, you know, not campaign on the job and all that kind of stuff. And that was the idea behind civil service, but what it's created as, the federal government and local governments get unionized. It's created this thing that Trump and people like Trump call the swamp where you you can't get rid of this installed base of people that decide they wanna go off mission if they want to. Like, they can just
Steve Palmer [:We're stuck with them because now they have Yeah. Now that now there's administrative rights, and they have unions, and, you know, you just the whole thing is a mess. Hey. Look, guys. I've gotta sign off. I know you guys are gonna wrap it up and take it home.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steve Palmer [:So for everybody, I appreciate you tolerating our remote involvement, and and I will say again, check us out. Commonsenseioshow.com. Become a sponsor. Like, share, get involved because it can only make us all that much better. So I'm signing off right from the middle until now, but you guys are gonna keep it going. So
Norm Murdock [:take care, partner. Care.
Brett Johnson [:Yep.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:You know, Brett, one of one of the things one of the things that, is happening with Intel is is is really interesting. So as you know They're they're in your backyard.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So you can kind of take the binoculars out and look and see what's going on. Yeah. So as you know, they have this $20,000,000,000
Norm Murdock [:facility that they're building in Ohio and, as you say, not too far from where I live. And yet, yesterday or maybe the day before, they announced they are terminating 15,000 employees. It is a $10,000,000,000 cut in their cost. And their stock, I think, went down 5 or 10% yesterday on that news rather than up. Like, you know, normally, when you cut costs, like your stock
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Usually.
Norm Murdock [:So, you know, I'm kind of wondering, you know, where part of the pitch to the state of Ohio in order to get, you know, tax deferments and get all this infrastructure like new roads, new sewers, new water, all this stuff, new electrical, you know, these big huge, electrical, current, you know, going into the, Intel site was all predicated on jobs. Yeah. And yet they just cut 15,000 jobs. And you're like, holy cow. So are those jobs gonna reappear, you know, someday in Ohio? Like, they're cutting jobs at old facilities. And so when this plant, if it ever gets done, you know, they say it will get delayed a little bit because of this news. But they when when Ohio's new Intel plant is finished, are these jobs really going to be there, or are they gonna have robots and, you know, automated production where really this the people of Ohio, you know, have granted all of this push to Intel, but we're not gonna get the jobs is what I'm afraid of.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Exactly. It's a well, and and in an industry that well and I just looked it up really quickly too that, you know, obviously, their cost structure is much higher. The the the revenue is not growing as expected. Let's put it that way. So, that our cost are too high, our margins are too low. Yeah. Okay.
Brett Johnson [:You didn't see I have that well and again I'm not in that industry but it's that we're talking chips. Right. For computers for every everything every and you guys can't make money?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You're wondering what the heck Yeah. Is going on.
Brett Johnson [:Well and I'm I'm, like, obviously, costs come down to the human factor. Yeah. Their their their their employees are making
Norm Murdock [:That's lot
Brett Johnson [:of money.
Norm Murdock [:That's a lot of people.
Brett Johnson [:It is a lot of people. So what what I read here, they're, you know, paying out early retirement, enhanced retirement offerings, and
Norm Murdock [:All the usual.
Brett Johnson [:All the usual. Yeah. The, you know, the the that sort of thing but yeah. No. To your point of how that affects Ohio. That's interesting. I mean, once a plant's up and running. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Do they recoup that or
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Does the state get some of their money back? Because they really gave away the store to get them here.
Brett Johnson [:If that and I guess ultimately right now they're not operating here so that 15,000 really doesn't affecting us yet.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. But but
Brett Johnson [:what does that say of the industry short term short term mean long term I think I would I can't imagine this this this industry not making money but it's that you gotta figure it out.
Norm Murdock [:And we also talked a little bit, you know, previously about how this is a strategic commodity. Yeah. And you
Brett Johnson [:know that Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:That Taiwan where I guess we get about 80% of our chips from, you know, could at any moment be engaged in a battle for a survival against the mainland Chinese communist. And they keep threatening to come after, Taiwan. So I can see both, like, a military and strategic move here to to change production to domestic. And I I I've even heard Taiwanese, chip facilities are going up in America, that the Taiwanese are are also hedging their bet. But what if they lose their island? Yeah. They're gonna come to America as citizens and be here and they're gonna have their factories here. So they're already starting to, you know, have a plan b.
Brett Johnson [:I'd like that's not a bad deal.
Norm Murdock [:It's not a bad
Brett Johnson [:Con considering where we're getting our chips for military purposes Yes. Intel intelligence, that sort of thing. We need to shut this down that it's it's gotta be all in house.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. It's gotta be. It's gotta be or else
Brett Johnson [:Make it here. It it Yeah. Keep it here.
Norm Murdock [:Can't control
Brett Johnson [:it. You cannot control it.
Norm Murdock [:Like, during COVID, I think General Motors and Ford and and probably Chrysler, they had to shut down assembly lines because they could not get chips. Yeah. So I guess these cars now have 20, 30, a 100. I don't know how many chips in them. Like, they they there's several computers in a car and and they and they, you know, like, they're dispersed. It's like a network in your car.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Yeah. I know. I was listening to a podcast talking about the beginnings of Apple and how Apple went into to China and was really the driving. They they were in the driver's seat initially, When they were making their stuff in in China and the Chinese workers fill that need, I mean, their experts in creating what they did. Yes. And, are creating.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Then, the tide kinda turn where the Chinese government is now in control. Have everything going on with with Apple. That's like,
Norm Murdock [:we don't you know.
Brett Johnson [:We need you need us more than we need you. I mean, because there's been talk of like, well, Apple could take stuff to Africa or other Right. Worlds again, but and but it's that there is a an intelligence there that they can't replicate that quickly.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, no.
Brett Johnson [:Those those new Chinese workers
Norm Murdock [:Training are smart.
Brett Johnson [:About what they do with it and do it very efficiently
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:For them. So Apple's kind of Yeah. Grew to a certain degree. And it comes down to that same idea of watch you gotta be careful where you're making stuff.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. But does it that You know? $1,000 iPhone would probably be 3,000.
Brett Johnson [:It could it could
Steve Palmer [:very well.
Norm Murdock [:If it was made here.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. It could be. It could be. You know? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Or but how do we know that, though? We don't know. Right.
Brett Johnson [:You know, we we don't know. I mean, because, I think we're we're creative enough to bring cost down. So, if it comes down to okay, it's gonna be a robot doing it first as a person.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I mean, look Yes. Amazon's I know. Warehousing system is is pretty much robots.
Brett Johnson [:Right. It's it's it's Do you know?
Norm Murdock [:Do you know some young people that have worked for Amazon?
Brett Johnson [:I'm not. No. No. So so
Norm Murdock [:my son worked for them for a little bit.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And he says, yeah, you go in there and they have brightly painted lines where the robots run and, like, you better not be in that aisle because that thing's programmed to come whizzing by at 30 miles an hour with boxes in its arms. Yeah. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Well, and, you know, and and Amazon kinda created that situation because if you think about it, do we really need something that badly that in certain cities they were getting at that same day delivery? Yeah. No. I mean, there could be certain I mean, the drugs of pharmacy, that's right. But are you really utilizing that system to do that? Probably not. Yeah. But it's that, do we really need same day delivery? Do we need next day delivery?
Norm Murdock [:Which rooms?
Steve Palmer [:Do we
Brett Johnson [:need do we truly, truly need that? Because I've I've been looking at it too and I again, sometimes you've got to order from Amazon because it's not available anywhere else. You just can't go to a Home Depot or Lowe's or whatever. Well, they
Norm Murdock [:have their own brands
Brett Johnson [:here. Exactly. Yeah. And I, you know, I continue to look at, okay, what are the options that I'm getting that's everything delivered the same day versus that truck coming into my neighborhood every every week. Right. Just I don't I don't, you know, I've I just ordered a couple things. Actually, it's, you know, being specific. It's, you know replacing some ear pads on our on our headphones they wear out after a while.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. And I mean I could have got it today but it's that I ordered a bunch of other stuff there too for studio use and and my own studio stuff and it's like I can have it next Tuesday. I'm fine.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Well, and also the frustration if you drive over to a computer store, even a big one, you know, without naming them, you know, you drive over there and you've got your fingers crossed that they have it in stock. Yeah. Whereas, you know, what is so convenient, man, you just turn on the computer, you go to one of these big retailers like Amazon or Walmart, and it tells you right there, yeah, we've got 8 in stock. We can ship this right now. And it's so convenient to hit the button.
Brett Johnson [:And and to do that, they have to have those robots rolling through. Yeah. So this just wouldn't get done.
Norm Murdock [:So I I I don't have a daughter. I wish I did. If you have a daughter, I'm curious how you feel about this Olympic boxing thing.
Brett Johnson [:I saw that video of that.
Norm Murdock [:You know, Brett So so listen. Listen. People undergoing transitions, for gender I I love all people. I love those people. I I so I don't wanna say anything cruel because I don't intend to be cruel about people, you know, the very small percentage of people that feel that they're in the wrong gender and they wanna change that. It's okay to identify. It like, I don't have any problem with any of that. But when it comes down to a contest based not on what you identify as, but what you really are, what you are as a matter of fact, and the idea that this Algerian boxer is putatively a male, and only his passport is what claims he is a female.
Norm Murdock [:He he beat down a a boxer in the Olympics and won the match after 40 seconds.
Brett Johnson [:One hit, wasn't
Norm Murdock [:it? One hit on her face, and she went down on the mat and just said that was too painful. That was too hard. I've never been hit like that. You know, it was a man, you know, quality hit. It was, you know, way more torque, if you will Right. Than what a female boxer in her weight class would experience.
Brett Johnson [:Well, they even look mismatched in the ring. Yes. Kinda. I mean, I I know you can be in the same weight class and be taller possibly and something you kinda looked at because I was in the initial look the video one and that that Algerian looks bigger than she is too. You know, that sort of thing. But, I I think the IOC may be going too fast with this. Yeah. I I I need to do a bit more studying of it or or whatever, but, I I I I haven't talked to her about it.
Brett Johnson [:I I don't know. So, I'm not gonna put words into her mouth.
Norm Murdock [:Sure.
Brett Johnson [:I but I think we we we need, a males need to have a platform to be able to defend the females. Be able to say stuff about this like, you know, this is it fair?
Norm Murdock [:It doesn't seem Is it fair? Doesn't seem right.
Brett Johnson [:It doesn't seem
Steve Palmer [:At all.
Norm Murdock [:Like it is. Because they're biologically different. They are different genders. And we've always had you know, whether it's hurdles, whether it's, the marathon, you know, the decathlon, whether it's swimming, whatever the sport is, the Olympics have always had female divisions and male divisions in order that things are equitable. Otherwise
Brett Johnson [:and and and It's chaos. Maybe it comes down to they're gonna have to create their own category of transitioned people fighting transit competing against transition people.
Norm Murdock [:Maybe so. Maybe so.
Brett Johnson [:That maybe that that could be fair.
Steve Palmer [:I don't
Brett Johnson [:I don't know. That that's not very confusing, but I
Norm Murdock [:Or even a separate Olympics.
Brett Johnson [:Maybe. I don't know.
Norm Murdock [:Like you do for other people like a pair of Paralympics.
Brett Johnson [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:You know, people who have lost limbs.
Brett Johnson [:Not to say that they are No. You know, but they're different. But they're different.
Norm Murdock [:You know, so somebody without legs, right, using a wheelchair, they actually can finish a marathon faster Yeah. Than somebody with legs.
Brett Johnson [:Right. And and and and I get that, all this training went into or at whatever section you are, wherever you're going with it. That's a decade. It can be decades of training. Definitely. Honestly. Yeah. And that I'm not I'm not there to take it away from them saying
Norm Murdock [:Like Simone Biles.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Right.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, that she she has been training since practically birth.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Exactly. Right. And you don't wanna take that away from them that that, you know, they have this drive to want to compete. Right. You would think that that Algeria would not want to be in that situation either.
Norm Murdock [:That's what I'm okay.
Brett Johnson [:You would think.
Norm Murdock [:Well, that's like Leah Thomas, the the n c two a swimmer, the guy, you know, so he's got all his tackle, you know, like, I'm not trying to be graphic, but like, Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn Jenner has you know, he he's very open that he still has his man parts and he has been very critical of men competing against women and, you know, Bruce Jenner
Brett Johnson [:I have not heard
Norm Murdock [:of that. Oh, yeah. Bruce Jenner is one
Brett Johnson [:of that's good.
Norm Murdock [:Caitlyn Jenner, I should say.
Brett Johnson [:Well that's good.
Norm Murdock [:Has been one of the very like he's on the same side as Riley Gaines
Brett Johnson [:Okay.
Norm Murdock [:Where where hey. Come on. You you cannot have Leah Thomas who's like, you know, a foot and a half taller than than Riley, you know, swimming against her as a as a man, and and he's just saying and I and I put just in quotes because that portrays a little bit of my bias. But after all, his claim is that he identifies as a woman, but he's not biologically a woman. I mean, you know, that's just the facts. You know, I mean, physically, he's not a woman. Now mentally, he may think
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:He is 1, and I don't wanna discount that. I don't wanna shame him. I don't but but at the same time, you wonder about why would a guy like him go in and try to take all the records and all the gold medals from actual collegiate women like Riley Gaynor.
Brett Johnson [:It's somewhat comparable to when we had the the steroid use.
Norm Murdock [:Yes. Kind of. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:That it's that they're juicing up. They're they're they're you know they're now that next level up beyond anybody else. Right. It was very random baseball for a for a while.
Norm Murdock [:And you put an asterisk on their records.
Brett Johnson [:They did.
Norm Murdock [:You know? Correct.
Brett Johnson [:They did. You know?
Norm Murdock [:Sammy Sosa. And who was the other guy for Kansas who
Steve Palmer [:wrote for
Norm Murdock [:Kansas City?
Brett Johnson [:McGuire. McGuire. McGuire. Right. You know, so again, it's not necessarily comparable, but you could think of it in that mindset.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Well, thank you for that. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I don't
Brett Johnson [:know. Yeah. I you know. I think I I think IOC is moving a bit too fast on this. You know, that's we got and I realize they're working against the clock because, you know, Olympics happen basically every 2 years And I get it.
Norm Murdock [:You know, it's one
Brett Johnson [:of those that gotta do that, but I don't know.
Norm Murdock [:They did turn down, speaking of Leah Thomas, he, she, he wanted to make, the, Olympic team for the United States, and in his case, they ruled against him. He could not represent the United States. Mhmm. And so and that was an IOC decision. And so I just wonder how did how did this boxer end up in the ring with this against the female boxer?
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I love yeah. I love it. I love it. It changed subject a little bit, but Yeah. I I meant to bring this up a couple weeks ago, but, you know, we we get into other topics and this is not heavy, but it does that does affect Ohio to a certain degree. So, I love the more I didn't think about how great this marketing was for the post office to create forever stamps. I think, we talked a little bit about this off mic.
Brett Johnson [:That, you know, you you buy your forever stamps and you really really don't know how much that stamp is. Because it doesn't come in denominations. You can do the math easily
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:In regards to the number of stamps you get.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You gotta look it up
Brett Johnson [:have to. You gotta get the calculator out there.
Norm Murdock [:What's your saying worth? 68¢
Steve Palmer [:or 70?
Brett Johnson [:Exactly. So and and I remember when the postage stamp amount went up, it made some news. You knew it was going to happen. So you you know, with the forever stamp, Alicia, oh, I gotta buy a bunch of forevers because it's going up. Yeah. Well, I don't know whether most people know that that the stamp went up again a few bet mid July.
Norm Murdock [:Yes. And the 2nd time this year.
Brett Johnson [:2nd time this year and the 6th time in 3 years.
Norm Murdock [:That's unbelievable.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So, I don't I don't know if you know do you know what the price of stamp is?
Norm Murdock [:What was 68? What did it go to? 73. 7 it went up a
Brett Johnson [:nickel. 73¢.
Norm Murdock [:Holy cow. That's a big big deal.
Brett Johnson [:So I bring this up because we you know, there are still things that we you and now again, that's your cost and my cost. Yeah. I just got this direct mail piece, you know, junk mail that we call 17¢. You know, so and I and I and I get it. I get it. The post office is, hey, we can make more. We gotta make a deal. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Because they're sending out 1,000 and 1,000 and 1,000.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:But it's that but how far do you need to go Well to to make this deal. But what I look at it from it is goes back to our very first initial stories of all this electronic transfer of payment. Yeah. And I've I've I'm diving into it as well. I pay a lot of stuff online. Most of it now, I used to be, I'm gonna stamp it. I'm gonna stamp it. I'm I'm just gonna do that, but it's that sometimes you just gotta wait to the last minute to pay something or it is more convenient.
Brett Johnson [:One day, you just go on the computer and you pay stuff, you pay stuff, you
Norm Murdock [:pay stuff. 73¢. I mean, it's a better part of a dollar. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:I know. Exactly. So, if you're paying 10 bills a month, let's say Yes. That's $7 in stamps.
Norm Murdock [:That's a lot. That you're,
Brett Johnson [:you know, going out. It can be costly though. Again, the marketing of the forever stamp does you don't recognize it but but but it does affect Ohioans it does affect commerce. Wow. You know in regards to paying a bill or sending a letter or
Norm Murdock [:You know, just thinking about it.
Brett Johnson [:When do they stop becoming relevant?
Norm Murdock [:I wonder how many people like, think of this as an investment. I wonder how many people went in there the day before it went to 73. Right? Yeah. And bought, like, 3,000 stamps. They instantly made, like, 8, 9% on their money the next day. Right? Just think of that.
Brett Johnson [:And you're not into Bitcoin. How are you not into Bitcoin?
Norm Murdock [:You know, the the other thing, that they you know, like, all their other prices have gone skyrocketing. So, like, in my mail order business, I used to use a post office's, what did they call it, priority mail.
Brett Johnson [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:And they have these, flat rate boxes. Yeah. So if you go in there, the smallest flat rate box or envelope used to be $4.20, and it was guaranteed to get there in most most places in America. It was guaranteed to get there in 2 days, maybe 3 at the most. That same box or envelope today is $10 something. So it, like, it more than doubled in, like, the last, as you say, 5, 6 years. It's doubled. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And, you know, think of all the people on eBay or Amazon or whatever they're doing. They're shipping books or they're shipping necklaces or whatever they're selling. You know? And you're just thinking, wow, man. They doubled their shipping cost just like that. Yeah. And, there's really no legal alternative to mail. You have to use a post office.
Brett Johnson [:Or in some UPS UPS
Norm Murdock [:has like a mail option, but guess who delivers it on the final delivery? It's the post office.
Brett Johnson [:Still through the post office. Yeah. So it it touches their hands. Yes. And and I'm not anti post office. It just that's, you know, I know they're working on efficiencies. The the, you know, the cost of the stamp goes up based on, inflation. So it is tied to that.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. No inflation. So so yeah. Our inflation rate has has gone up. So the stamp's probably gonna go up as well
Norm Murdock [:too. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:And for the most part, I've had really good conversations and and interactions with post office people. I've made a few things here or there that, you know, we were we had to send our daughter's passport or she didn't take it with her to Colorado. We just thought well we can mail it to her later.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:I
Brett Johnson [:didn't want to get lost in shuffle, you know, travel and, the post office here. I I wanted it delivered a specific way because she wasn't gonna be home and I wanted to make sure she you know
Norm Murdock [:signature requirement. Yeah. Kind of thing.
Brett Johnson [:And, you know, what they told me here and what happened in Colorado 2 different stories.
Norm Murdock [:Two different stories.
Brett Johnson [:And, that's similar to my problem.
Norm Murdock [:My my problem was I shipped, I I mean, this was the most expensive letdown for me with the post office. So I shipped about a $1,000 order to a customer in Canada, and I bought the post office's insurance
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:For the full 1,000. Well, have you ever tried to get paid back by the federal government? Oh. It was so what they said was, we require the Canadian post office to give us a report on the package being lost. And the Canadian post office had no incentive to sit down and write a report, so they never did. And I said to the US post office, like, I can't make them do this.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:But I bought insurance from you and it's lost. No payment. Like, just no no resolution. They didn't give me half or a third or a fourth. Nothing.
Brett Johnson [:And and that could happen even if it wasn't it wasn't even international. It could have been
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah.
Brett Johnson [:5 states over. Why why would any post office, you know, the the manager or whatever their title is at any post office want have the incentive to do it.
Norm Murdock [:Exactly. I mean, that Canadian post office, they they were like, it's not our problem. Wow. And so, you know, naturally, I I took the hit. I had to reship that
Steve Palmer [:order to that customer and it you
Norm Murdock [:know, obviously, I lost money on that. They don't operate They don't operate like FedEx or UPS where they seem incentivized to solve customer problems because they sort of know we've got a monopoly on the
Brett Johnson [:mails. Yeah. You know, and it really yes. Every every person behind the counter is a little bit different.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:I've had some that are that will go that because they they like their job.
Steve Palmer [:Well, this
Brett Johnson [:is more some just are just can you feel that they're just kinda there?
Norm Murdock [:This insurance thing was more like a policy thing.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:It didn't come down to personalities. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the people I dealt with were pleasant. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:But they were just like, hey, I'm operating under these rules.
Brett Johnson [:I know.
Norm Murdock [:And unless we have a report from them that it's lost
Brett Johnson [:They have their protocols on
Steve Palmer [:how that works.
Brett Johnson [:Tube. Jeez. Yeah. Oh, well.
Norm Murdock [:Another thing I just wanted to I wanted to bring up real quick and I guess it's still we'll wrap it up is, on this constitutional amendment, about redistricting. So I did a deep dive, and I actually read the, language in the petition. Mhmm. And on the face so this is one of those things where you do you do need to read the details. So on the face of it, they want to pick the new commission in the constitutional amendment would be, if it passes, 5 Republicans, 5 Democrats, and so 15 people and 5, citizens. And and the way that they would be selected so the way those 15 get picked is with a 4 person panel made up of 2 Republican retired judges and 2 Democrat retired judges. So those 4 people will pick the 15 people. Alright.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. So then you've got to back up and go, well, who picks the 4 people, right? Because it's the 4 retired judges. If the if the 4 retired judges are biased, right?
Brett Johnson [:Well, but we're all You're
Norm Murdock [:just passing the bias.
Brett Johnson [:We all are biased so they will be biased. I mean, there's no way around it.
Norm Murdock [:But you're you're gonna love this. So if you dig into the language, guess how the 4 judges get picked.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, god.
Norm Murdock [:So this is this is beautiful. K. So there is something that exists right now called the Ohio ballot board and they're the people you go to to submit a constitutional amendment or whatever you want to be put on the ballot, and then they send it over to Frank LaRose and Dave Yost Yeah. To have the language assessed about whether it's clear and understandable and all of that. Do they have enough signatures? So what they're saying is the Ohio ballot board, the 4 the 4 members that are appointed by the legislature, 2 Republican and 2 Democrats, those 4 people will pick the 4 retired judges who will then pick the 15 members of the redistricting committee. And what it says, how those 4 people get to pick the judges is the majority party will select 8 people that it wants to the 8 judges that it wants to comprise this 4 judge panel. But then it's the minority party that gets to pick the the out of the list of 8, they pick they pick the 4. So many layers Oh my god, Brett.
Norm Murdock [:Wow. Okay. Sounds to me like Wow. It's just another system to it's still political.
Brett Johnson [:Well, yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:So so so the way the current
Brett Johnson [:not be. Right?
Norm Murdock [:The way the current system is is regardless of what party the the the officers are
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:It's the governor. So the current redistricting committee is the governor, the auditor, the secretary of state, the speaker of the house appoints 1, the president of senate appoints 1, and then the largest, minority party in the house picks 1, and the largest minority party in the senate picks 1. So that happens to be right now 5 Republicans and 2 yet 2 Democrats. Right. But as the opponents of this constitutional amendment pointed out, this system of 7 people passed when the Democrats and the Republicans in the in the house and senate voted. It passed 82 to 8 in the house. It passed 28 to 1 in the senate, and then the people of Ohio by 71% approved the constitutional amendment back in 2015 and 2018. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:So the overwhelming number of Democrats and Republicans support supported the current system.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And you never heard anybody complain when Dick Celeste was governor and when, Harry Michelle was a was a Democrat president of the senate and Verne Rife was the Democrat speaker of the house. So when the democrats ran everything in Ohio, you didn't hear republicans say we need to redo the redistricting committee. You know, it's like now that Republicans are in the majority on the 7 person committee, now all of a sudden it's gerrymandering, but it wasn't gerrymandering when the Democrats were running.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Yeah. And I and I know they got enough signatures around the state. I have enough counties. Yeah. But I I mean, I know I was approached to to sign. I remember
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You never And it's on the ballot.
Brett Johnson [:You never you never when when you signed on that, and I'm not saying this was Oh, you can't. You can't. You can't. It's not I'm not saying it was misleading, but you you you signed off on an idea that made, yeah, we should. Yeah. That that would and and again, it's devil in the details and and I heard, DeWine talking about the Iowa plan as well too, which I'm not in love with either necessarily. Yeah. Because from what I from what I understand the Iowa plan is it you know, you they throw 3 maps out there and the legislature can the legislature can thumbs down it every time and then they get the final say.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:So, ultimately, it's like, okay. It's the same process that they're gonna say no to stuff, they don't like it, then they know after 3 strikes, they get to to make the plan. So, I don't think the Iowa plans that great either and hit in his explanation on video of the of the snake around the lake and the ice cream cones like, god, the wine
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:You're you're just shut up.
Norm Murdock [:Honestly. Shut up. You know, it's a the more forthright and honest thing to say, in my opinion, is even though, you know, I know some people don't like him, you know, Matt Huff Huffman, they they they, you know, they think, you know, he's too partisan, whatever. But when you look at the history of the current system and how it was overwhelmingly approved by Republicans and Democrats, and the fact that, like, Stephen King and the Tides Foundation and all these people, 26 $27,000,000 are pushing this constitutional amendment, and they're all liberal groups. And the reason is because they think that the 15 person deal will end up being more liberal than republican. So that's their thinking. That's why they're pushing it. And as Hoffman pointed out, I don't see them going after the same kind of committee that Ohio has in, like, New York or California.
Norm Murdock [:They're targeting Ohio because it's a red state. I mean, let's just be honest.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I know. This is politics. Yeah. This is this is How can it not be? Because it's drawing political lines.
Norm Murdock [:It's politics. And and, you know Maybe
Brett Johnson [:the system we have in there is not a 100% great. It's working, but at the same time That's right. What modifications do we need to make it better? So It just seems like there's
Norm Murdock [:So the current both
Brett Johnson [:both solutions are not a middle ground.
Norm Murdock [:So the way the the way the current system works, it's not just these 7 people don't meet and just, like, okay, the majority rules. So I don't know if you know this, but under the current system, the 2 Democrats the the law says like, Ohio constitution currently says that at least 2 members of the minority party must approve any redistricting redistricting plan. So that means the 5 Republicans have to present a plan that the 2 minority democrats on there currently
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:Okay, have to go along with. They in other words, the redistricting plan, the map Mhmm. Cannot be approved unless these 2 democrats on the current 7 person
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:Right. They have to approve it.
Brett Johnson [:And vice versa if it were 5 Democrats and 2
Norm Murdock [:To rip up,
Brett Johnson [:they would put to the same scenario.
Norm Murdock [:Same scenario. So it does call the current system does have bipartisanship kind of built into it. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:But why didn't DeWine say that?
Norm Murdock [:I don't know.
Brett Johnson [:See, that's what I mean, I can understand that. Rather than doing this this grab of snakes and ice cream cones. Unbelievable. God. Just explain what the hell it is.
Norm Murdock [:Defend the system.
Brett Johnson [:And then we then we can make a choice. Then we
Norm Murdock [:can make a choice. Is this good enough for and apparently, it was good enough for Vernon Sykes and the Democrats back in 2015. They voted for it.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:80. 82 to 8 and 28 to 1 in the senate. It was over almost approved.
Brett Johnson [:And sadly, we're not gonna have this discussion right here to flush out both sides.
Norm Murdock [:The details.
Brett Johnson [:The details. Pros and cons of it and then make a choice without well, that any bias on it at all. Of course, everything has bias. Of course. But it's that you explaining it that way. I did not know and you know no no nobody's
Norm Murdock [:really talking. Gonna get into the granular detail.
Brett Johnson [:Right. You know, the stupid graphs and yeah. You know, that is the first way to to overwhelm someone is to show a map of gerrymandering. Right. That you can see them going, oh, yeah. We gotta change that.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah.
Brett Johnson [:I mean, I get it too. I look at it going that that's stupid.
Norm Murdock [:That's weird. That's weird looking.
Brett Johnson [:That's weird looking. Right. Always has been that way. Now that we have social media and we can see graphics all the time. It's in our face as much as we want it to.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Right.
Brett Johnson [:It's always been that way. Right. Good or bad. I'm not advocating it's right or wrong or good or bad right now, but it's that way. Yes. But, the system behind it that is is knowledge to think on.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Brett Johnson [:It's knowledge to think on and do you like it or not or do you want the next session to readdress it? DeWine says they're gonna go and read readdress it whether he's full of crap or not, I don't know.
Norm Murdock [:So his his I don't know. So there is this nonpartisan, if you will, they're like the general accounting office in the federal government where theoretically, they just give you back facts and they don't slant it.
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:And it's called the Legislative Service Commission in Ohio. And they're the people like, if I have an idea that I want, all the school buses to be painted with purple stripes or something. I wanna go have that law drafted. I, as a state representative or a state senator, can take my idea to the legislative service commission, and they don't question whether the only thing they'll advise you is whether it's constitutional or not. And then they go ahead and draft your bill, And then you can present that bill. So they're the people that actually have the legal knowledge of how to take your idea and turn it into actual legislation. So DeWine's idea is to have, as you said, Brett, the Iowa model, is to have the LSC, Legislative Service Commission, draw up the map thinking they'll be unbiased. Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:And then you pick from the map you like. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's kind of a chicken way to to offload what really is their responsibility to do.
Brett Johnson [:Yes. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:You know, we after all, in a democratic way, we elect these politicians to represent us. Mhmm. Okay? So they should be carrying out the will of the people. And if that's political, well, that's how our system works. We do have a political system. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
Norm Murdock [:Anytime.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I I well, I think your point well taken. Start doing some digging on this issue. I mean, as It is important.
Norm Murdock [:As president Obama famously told John McCain, John, elections have consequences. Yeah. They do. And they do.
Brett Johnson [:They do. They do. Yeah. For sure. For sure. It's just, you know, that there are some comments that just kinda stick the wrong way when when
Norm Murdock [:I mean, we want fairness.
Brett Johnson [:We do.
Norm Murdock [:And I think ultimately the veto power by the 2 minority people on the 7 person
Brett Johnson [:Pretty that's pretty strong. It's pretty
Norm Murdock [:they can hold them up forever
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And just say and this is once every 10 years, by the way.
Brett Johnson [:Right. You know, and it it's painted like it happens every year.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:It it does. Right. And I guess it's because we're talking about it constantly.
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Brett Johnson [:But yeah. Good point that it's it's every census taking basically every 10 years. Yeah. So it's that nothing's gonna change really immediately in regards to the mapping. No. Yeah. I don't even know when the next mapping
Norm Murdock [:is. If this passes, if the the new 15 person panel that would redistrict the, the amendment calls for them to have their first, map by July of next year.
Brett Johnson [:Next year. Yeah. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:So they would have to get their act together.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:If they if it passes in November, they need to appoint these people. They gotta go through that process I described, and then they have to have a product by July.
Brett Johnson [:And how do you how does this normal citizen raise their hand they want to be on that committee? Yeah. I mean, maybe I want to.
Norm Murdock [:You you get to submit your name. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Okay.
Norm Murdock [:To the either the Republicans or the Democrats. Yeah. Or the 4 panel judge.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Right. Right.
Norm Murdock [:That picks them.
Brett Johnson [:Jeez. I'm crying.
Norm Murdock [:I know. Wow. Wow. What a mess. Like, that won't be political.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. And that's probably stuff that we should dig into that a little bit more again because I know it's gonna there are gonna be more things unveiled about it in regards to Okay. Sure. Hopefully clarity.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Right.
Brett Johnson [:And and I I wanna learn about it too because this is kind of important.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:That kinda.
Norm Murdock [:It is. Let's let's maybe bring in somebody who's, an expert on this.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. That'd be good.
Norm Murdock [:And maybe a legislator or maybe the Buckeye is to get somebody.
Brett Johnson [:To get puts her face, the the former judge. They've she's
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Maureen O'Connor. She's what she's pushing us.
Brett Johnson [:I'd love to.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. She's passionate about it. Yeah. She turned down 4 plans in a row. Yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Before she finally left office and then they passed
Brett Johnson [:it without her.
Norm Murdock [:Without with
Brett Johnson [:with the new one in. Yeah. It's true. That's true. Well, we wanna thank you for, you know, going through a whole episode with us. Again, if you liked what you heard, please let us know. Email us. We've got the email address available in the show notes as well as on the website.
Brett Johnson [:If you're so inclined to give us maybe 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 stars on the your player of choice, please do that. Let us know what you do like and don't like for sure. And any topics you want us to, cover, common sense ohio show.com is the website and we always appreciate you as a listener and we'll talk to you next time.
