What Teenage Mothers Really Need - A Psychologist’s PerspectiveTeenage pregnancy is often framed as a social problem, a failure, or a life “ruined.” But what if the real issue isn’t the pregnancy - it’s the stigma, judgement, and low expectations placed on young mothers?

In this episode, I’m joined by Dr Hayley Lugassy, an educational psychologist who became a mother at 15. We explore the psychological impact of teenage pregnancy, the harm caused by shame-based responses from families and professionals, and what truly supports better outcomes for both young mothers and their children.

We discuss teenage motherhood, attachment, stigma, poverty, safeguarding, education pathways, UK benefits, and how investing in young parents can transform lives.

This episode is essential listening for parents, professionals, aspiring psychologists, teachers, and anyone interested in trauma-informed and compassionate approaches to teenage pregnancy.You do not need to be a young parent to find this powerful – this is about how we respond to people at vulnerable turning points in their lives.

⏱️ Timestamps

1. 00:00 Why teenage pregnancy is so often misunderstood
2. 02:50 Falling pregnant at 14 and family conflict
3. 05:39 Judgement from professionals during birth
4. 08:32 What parents should do when their teenage daughter is pregnant
5. 12:11 Reframing “ruined life” narratives
6. 14:38 Poverty, food insecurity and survival
7. 16:21 The UK benefits system and long-term investment
8. 18:26 What gold-standard support could look like
9. 21:50 Why young mothers need mentorship, not surveillance
10. 25:50 Becoming a psychologist after teenage motherhood
11. 29:37 The impact of low expectations
12. 31:29 Practical support available in the UK today

Links:

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Teenage pregnancies often talked about as a problem to be fixed, a mistake, a life ruin before it's even started. But those narratives rarely come from the people who've actually lived it. I'm Dr. Marianne, a clinical psychologist, and today I'm joined by Dr. Hayley Lagasse, an educational psychologist who became a mother at the age of 15. We talk about what teenage mothers really need from families, professionals, and systems, and how judgement , stigma, and low expectations can actually do far more harm than the pregnancy itself. This conversation is about support, possibility and what happens when we actually invest in people instead of writing them off. I hope you find it so useful and if you do like and subscribe for more. Hi, I just want to welcome along to the podcast Dr. Hayley Lugassy, who is an educational psychologist. Welcome along Hayley.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Thanks for being here. And we are here because we want to tell a little bit about your story, but talk about how people can learn from your inspiring tale and the experiences you've been through, both kind of adverse and positive. And we are leading with the fact that you became pregnant age 14 and had your baby age 15, your first child. Could you tell us a little bit about that, please, Hayley?

There's lots to tell. So I was living in Spain at the time as a young person having moved there at the age of 10. I was born and bred in England originally. That was quite a big shift. It was a massive transition that came with lots of challenges and I think part of the challenge led to me ultimately falling pregnant at quite a young age. Now, whilst I was living in Spain at the time, I believed that the age of consent for sexual relationships was 13, and I was adamant that that was the case. I'm not quite sure now looking back whether that was the case or not. However, I didn't really understand what pregnancy meant, and I didn't really understand that having relations could lead to pregnancy. So it certainly wasn't a planned pregnancy, and it certainly was something that was a shock when I realised, when I found out what was actually happening. So I found myself in a relationship with a young man who was five years older than me. So he was 19 at the time, over age, and we had been dating or seeing each other, getting to know each other for a couple of months before I fell pregnant. And I felt quite quickly that I was in love as you do when you're a young person. So I fell pregnant, yet didn't really understand that, that that's what was happening, that I was actually growing a child inside.

The pregnancy itself was extremely challenging, partly because of my family's response. My mom's response in particular, who was living in Spain with me at the time, she found it extremely difficult to process and accept that her 14-year-old daughter was pregnant. Now in Spain, you have the right to make decisions about your body regardless of how old you are, similar to the UK I believe. So I was able to decide whether or not I wanted to proceed with the pregnancy, whereas my mum was adamant that it was best for me to have an abortion. I declined, which was again really distressing for my mum because she truly believed that becoming a mom at such a young age was going to ruin my life and potentially ruin the child's life, the child that was going to be born. So the early days, the early pregnancy days were particularly challenging.

That led to a lot of conflict within the home, and that did ultimately lead to me moving out. So no longer living with my mom and moving in with my son's biological father. So the pregnancy itself was very high stress, not very well supported from my mom. My wider family were living in England at the time or elsewhere. I have a brother in Canada, and I think that public perceptions of teenage pregnancy are quite damaging to the person that is pregnant, and that's the case for me. I definitely found that even the professionals that were involved in my life were extremely judgmental at that time. I have this one particular memory of going to the doctors after declining the abortion, and it was a clinical psychologist or equivalent in Spain, and she shipped me off with a doll to look after for the weekend to pretend that it was a baby.

And I just looking back now, I think it's absolutely hilarious. What good would that do? Sending a doll? It didn't cry. It didn't need nappy changes. It wasn't one of these quite advanced dolls that actually needs to be cared for. It was quite literally a doll that was the pram. I thought that was cute. So yeah, the pregnancy was really challenging. And then of course, given birth at the age of 15, I mean, I wouldn't wish that on anybody. It was extremely difficult. One of the midwives was extremely judgmental of me whilst I was giving birth because I was crying and screaming and saying how horrible it was and how I wanted it to be over. And he actually made a comment to me saying that I shouldn't have opened my legs in the first place and I wouldn't be in that position. And I think some people don't believe me when I say that. It genuinely, genuinely happened, and it shocks me that there were people out there that could treat somebody who's going through one of the most difficult things they probably ever will in their lives and to say such a thing. So hopefully that gives you a snapshot of what that experience was like.

Absolutely. I am so sorry to hear that that was your experience. And a woman who's in her thirties or her forties often says, I want this to be over. I don't want to do this anymore. And that's because it really hurts. I was really struck with empathy for you as a teenage mom. It was making me think about my experiences of my first pregnancy with my son, who's now 12, and it was a planned pregnancy, but I went along to the midwife clinic. I was very excited and all of that, and any appointments I had with my gp and I would've been so very upset and so very distressed if someone had suggested abortion with me because this is a baby that already feels like part of me. And I've already looked at what size blueberry they are in the apps, and I already felt like a mother. And we can't assume that because a mother to be is young, that she's not also having those same psychological changes and really, really hard. Hayley, I'm so sorry that you experienced that.

Hence, I'm here raising awareness because I suppose part of my life goal is trying to change people's perceptions of people in general. But teenage parents is obviously they're people that matter a lot to me and trying to change the narrative about the outcomes for the children. I think there's so much focus on the negative sides and the downsides of being such a young parent, and absolutely, it's extremely challenging and outcomes can not be so good, but then that could be the same for a parent at any age. It doesn't matter. Just because you're in your thirties, it doesn't mean that you're going to have the best possible life or be able to give your child exactly what they need for the rest of their life. So I think that that narrative really need shifting. Hence, I talk about my experience so much

And we are probably going to focus more in on teenage mothers here today. But of course we might cover teenage fathers as well. And if people are interested in learning more about teenage fathers, there's a really great episode that I did previously on a project that's operating to support teen fathers to optimally thrive as parents, really not just as something that's shame filled and should be covered up. So yeah, please do check that out in the description or the show notes. But if we could have, I guess people might be watching this for a variety of reasons. They might be a parent themselves who's now got a teenage daughter, maybe who's pregnant or someone that they care about who's pregnant and they're seeking to understand or they might be working in mental health and wondering how to support people or how to speak about and respectfully. What would be useful for us to share at this point, I guess, Hayley, for whoever's watching?

That's a really good question, really good question. I think for me, the most important thing would be that whilst finding out that your daughter at a very young age is pregnant can be extremely distressing for you, I think it's extremely important to acknowledge those feelings and sit with them as much as you need to, but to not forget that your daughter is most likely also finding this extremely challenging, whether it was a planned pregnancy or not. In my instance, it was not a planned pregnancy, so I had the shock of finding out that I was pregnant. Whereas I know that there are some young ladies out there that do plan on having babies at a very young age, but regardless, it's a very difficult thing for them to go through. And when you are pregnant, those of us that have had children, we know how challenging it is.

All our hormones are going crazy. We are feeling emotional. We might be experiencing morning sickness and all these other symptoms, I guess, of pregnancy. And the most useful thing for me in that moment would've been to have had a supportive parent, a parent that put her own feelings aside. For me, it was just my mom. If she could have put her own feelings aside, had her moments cried, screamed have done whatever she needed to do with her support network, and then to have supported me and understood this is the way that it's going to be. It's not going to be easy, but I'm going to be with you. I'm going to walk alongside you, I'm going to guide you. I'm going to mentor you the best that I can, and we will get through this together. I think that that's likely to support better outcomes for both the mom and the child rather than pushing your daughter away. And that's I think where I get most distress is when I see moms or parents pushing their daughter away because they fallen pregnant, because actually they're less likely to receive the right support and therefore the outcomes could not be so great.

Yeah, and I think I was thinking about the term of what we talk about in psychology as containment. So you might not be thrilled about it, and you might even share some of that with your daughter. And kind of be honest, this is a real shock, but it's not hopefully done from a position of crossness and there's not massive amounts of distress after the initial news. It's going to take a while to adjust initially, I guess. But really, if you are not managing that, it shouldn't just be your daughter that's getting that and seeing that, like you said, it might be that you've got your own parents around your friends, maybe your siblings maybe reaching out for discussions with someone that's qualified to support you to explore this. Maybe even any local organisations who do support teenage mothers or people that have got kind of families that don't look typical. It shouldn't just be the daughter's responsibility to so call that up.

No, and the daughter's going to have a lot on their mind. So I think as much as the parents can do to support it would go down really well. I think also important to mention is that we tend to fixate on the what could go wrong and the negatives. And we tend to, I think, catastrophize the future outcomes for both the mother and the child, whereas actually there are so many stories of young parents, young moms that have gone on to do extremely well. They've been great parents, they've raised successful happy children that have gone on into adulthood and done very well. So I think it's really important to try not to think in the most negative way and try to reframe the way that you're thinking. If you're automatically going to, oh my goodness, you are ruining your life. Absolutely not. Is it going to be a little bit challenging initially?

Most likely. Are you going to potentially have to put on pause some of your dreams and hopes? Probably yes, just like I had to. But that doesn't mean that you then can't come back to those a little bit later in life when you're ready to, and alongside that, you're going to have the joy of being a parent. So for me, it's been a really beautiful experience. Extremely challenging. Yes, would I have done it differently if I would've known better potentially, but those weren't the circumstances that I found myself in. So yeah, try to change the narrative, I guess, for yourself about the future.

Yeah, let's focus on the positives. Hopefully you've enjoyed being a parent and now you've got your daughter who is now pregnant. But yeah, it doesn't always need to be from a position of lack, does it? And actually, having worked with a lot of families where babies have turned up unexpectedly, that child has really been a great joy to the families, to the extended families. Grandparents got to become grandparents sooner than expected and have been around in better health to be able to enjoy them as well. It's not all negative, obviously children are not free. Mine are really expensive, staying the same. So that is tricky. And I think certainly having grown up in England, a lot of the narrative around teenage pregnancies was kind of living on benefits, getting a cancel house. It was never thought of as a positive thing. And I think there was lots of shame, lots of blame, lots of stigma. How was that for you in Spain?

Great question. So Spain, again, we are talking 17 years ago when this happened. So things may have shifted in Spain, the benefit system is very, very different. So when I found myself pregnant, we were already struggling financially significantly. I would describe ourselves as living in quite extreme poverty at the time. So of course, falling pregnant definitely brought added stress because of the cost, there is no benefit system whereby you can get, for example, housing benefits support you to find a place to live. And even things like support to eat on a daily basis, there wasn't a benefit for that, for example, like a living benefit. So we had to very much rely on the churches that would give out boxes of food as well as food banks that were in the local area. And often those didn't come with the right foods that we needed.

Even things like formula, for example, I was able to breastfeed for the first four months, but then we moved on to formula and we could not afford formula. So we very much had to rely on the generosity of the churches, the banks, and often go hungry myself to make sure that the little one was fed. So that was a significant challenge, and that I guess is something that people do need to be very mindful of. It did get to a point, unfortunately in my situation, where I did find myself having to steal and find ways of making money that I wouldn't do now because you do what you have to do when you're a parent. You have so much love for your child that you'll do anything to make sure they're fed. So yeah, very, very different to here. I returned to England when my son was two, and I was extremely grateful to be able to come back and receive the benefit support that I desperately needed to help me progress with my life.

Even something like for example, being able to return to education, I left school with no GCSEs, so had no prospects, I had no future at that time, potentially would've even struggled to get a job in a shop, for example, because of my social skills at that time. But the government system, the benefit system, enabled me to go back to college to start getting my qualifications. And they funded a nursery place for my little boy and I didn't have to pay a penny. And on top of that, they contributed paying for my flat that I lived in through housing benefit. So looking at where I am today now working as an educational psychologist, I actually have a lot of gratitude to the UK benefit system for enabling me to make steps towards my future.

And I think it's thinking about not just the person you are now as a 14-year-old mother, and ultimately when you came to the uk, a 16-year-old mother, we're investing in the future Dr. Hayley lagers because actually now you are fully paying tax and part of society and you are a consumer, and that cannot be underestimated. If we support people well, they give back into the system. And with your work supporting children, young people, schools and families, you are giving back in abundance. So let's not forget about that too.

Absolutely agree. I'm so glad that you said that. But yes, absolutely, let's invest in people. And as I said, I have so much gratitude and I feel a real responsibility to give back and to talk about the positives that this country has given me because I wouldn't be where I am today and I'm in such a great place today. And that's thanks to all of the support that was offered, not just financially, but emotionally, all of the support services that were available, schwart start centres back when they were quite common. And I'm so extremely thankful to everybody that now I want to be contributing and giving back, and I really hope that that people can see that and start to change the way they're seeing things invest in people and they do give back.

Yeah. I'm going to ask question now. It might be that we need to pause the recording whilst we have a think about it, or you might be like, Nope, I know the answer already. But if we were to kind of think about UK landscape now we've got a 14-year-old teenage mother who's decided she wants to keep her baby. What could we put in place or what would be an ideal gold standard experience for her, her and her baby, who she's growing still currently to thrive? And if we need to pause for a moment, that's absolutely okay, but I really would like to think about what a gold standard would look like.

That's a really good question. I'm going to do that thing where I say that I think it would be context dependent, and I think it will very much depend on the brother and what their circumstances are. I think it would be very different for a 14-year-old young lady who's fallen pregnant and has got really large, very supportive family, perhaps to you parents who are going to be the grandparents that would be able to help look after the baby so that she could continue with education. So I think that perhaps the support that she needs is going to be very different to somebody like me who's only maybe got one parent or no contact really with their families living in poverty, maybe they've got additional needs and really struggle educationally. So I don't think that there is one gold standard that would be, it's not one size fits all.

I think that for me personally, it's all down to ensuring that that young mom continues to have access to education, has access to a support network, whatever, whether that's family or whether that is professional or professional, supporting them to develop their own non-professional support network and supporting them to think about the future, learn about things that they may not know about in terms of being a parent, support them with life skills, practical skills, managing money, things that we don't really think about that are really important when you become a parent. So bring it, putting that into their package, I suppose, which I don't think the education system currently does very well. But yes, as I've said, I think it'll be really context dependent.

Yeah, thank you for that. And I did throw that as a bit of a curve ball, but I think I would also want her to have a dedicated, safe, nonjudgmental mentor really to see her through from wherever she is now to the first two or three years, maybe even the first five years of her baby's life. And that might be a mommy, it might be another female, it might be a man, I dunno. But someone that has got a really good heart that is going to give her that space to thrive, but also share some of her vulnerabilities and be there toe for toe. And maybe sometimes they happen in, I remember when I had a health visitor coming and watching me with my child, and maybe there's some element of that as well, but actually some element of just let's go for a cup of tea and see how you are and what's feeling hard right now. That would be a really lovely addition.

I think that would be absolutely wonderful. And I suppose what I kind of felt from the staff at the Shore Start Centre when I did return, it was, although they weren't dedicated to me because of the amount of times that I spent there, I developed really lovely relationships with the staff that it was the same staff there consistently. And I could just pop in and have the non-judgmental conversations. I could go and say, God, this is absolutely exhausting. I don't think I can continue doing this. But they also had the knowledge and skill to be able to help me and tell me and explain how to do things differently. And I really respected them for that. I didn't feel like they were there judging me. I didn't feel like they were coming to check on my baby's wait, or is your little weight eating enough? So I think that's potentially a challenge with health visitors is that from my second child now, seven definitely felt that when they came round, although they were lovely, there was an element of checking the house, checking the weight, is everything being done as it should. We know that safeguarding was on their mind. If we could slightly remove that, then I feel that the relationships could be a lot better for the mum and baby.

And also you need, it was really hard. My eldest woke up like 31 times a night when he was at his worst, really hard. I was just bone cold. My bones felt cold. I was so tired and I was more emotional because I was just so exhausted. And so if I went to a mom and baby group and I had a particularly hard night, I might well be in tears. It's really hard. It's really hard. But at no point did anyone ever say, do you want to give your child up for adoption? But I think a young mom experiencing some of the same things is more likely to have that question asked to her, but that's not what she's saying necessarily. She might be saying that maybe you can support her to explore options, but also she's just looking for validation. This is the hardest thing I've ever done.

And I don't think it should matter how old you are. I think as you said, regardless of how old you were when you have your first child, second child, third child, it's exhausting. And each baby is different. I waited for nine years until I had my second child because it was so hard and due to circumstances, and I thought that it would be an absolute breeze. And no, it's been equally as difficult for different reasons. So yeah, just having somebody there that can just listen to you, make you a cup of tea, offer to hold the baby, come and do a bit of washing up for you, just those nice practical supports would be so beneficial to all moms, but particularly young moms,

Absolutely. I wish I'd had someone to come around and hold my baby because I've got another friend also called Marianne. I don't think she'll mind me calling her out on this. But when our children, our first babies were little, we'd go swimming together and genuinely we'd take all of our shower gels, we'd take our shampoo and our conditioner and our body puff and our razors, and we would poolside have our only shower that week, and we called it our spa. But our kids would be sat on the floor and we'd be fully showering and together side by side with people swimming up and down the legs. But we cannot have been the only moms in the country to be doing that. But what I've learned is showers and being clean and having clean hair helped me feel more put together and helped me manage everything.

So I wish someone had supported me to bathe, bathe more often, which sounds ridiculous, but actually that would've helped my bones to warm up and for me to feel like I didn't look such a state. I remember I was in a supermarket and I'd seen a leaflet a few days ago about life insurance, and I think at the time I was 32, maybe 33, and they said, oh, do you mean our over 50 plan? And I was like, no, obviously, how not put together, I was looking in my jumble sale outfit, whatever it was, but just let's support mothers to have a chance of optimally thriving.

Yeah, absolutely. Make them food. I think that's one of really practical ones, especially when you're a teenage mom and potentially haven't yet learned how to cook, which was definitely the case for me. I knew how to wash clothes to a certain extent, but as I mentioned, those life skills, I think when you become a mom in your twenties or thirties, you've already potentially developed some of those life skills. You might be living on your own, know a little bit more about money and so on. Whereas when you are 14, 15, 16 and you still maybe not quite learn how to cook or how to navigate particular things around the house, that's where that practical support is so beneficial. So yeah, let's bring those, more of that.

Absolutely. So let's talk briefly about your dedication and your striving to become a psychologist. I know from before we hit record that your passion for that was ignited with some psychologist work that you'd received in Spain.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So I had a bit of involvement from a school psychologist in Spain, so they're psychologists that are based within school settings and support children for a variety of reasons. The reasons that I had involvement were due to use some difficult experiences that I had whilst I was living in Spain. And one day I was over leaving the last session that I was having with her, she shouted over to me, Hayley, one day you'd make an exceptional psychologist. And at the time, I kind of brushed it off and thought, yes, whatever. I don't really care about this because I was really adamant I wanted to be a writer, and I had lots of other passions. However, that really stuck with me. And I'd always been very passionate about supporting children and young people, and I was known within my community for standing up to the bullies.

I was a bit of a fighter at school, but I wouldn't initiate the fights. People would come to me because they knew that I would stand up for them. And I think I was going through my really challenging times. I started to reflect on how I didn't want any other young people to experience the things that I'd experienced. That's where I discovered this passion for becoming a psychologist. I wasn't entirely sure what type, I didn't really understand that there were lots of different areas to go into when it comes to psychology. And it's then when I came back to England when I was 17 years old, I started really looking into it, but people didn't believe that I was going to be capable of becoming a psychologist because it is quite hard. It does take time. You do have to go to university. And when you've been a young parent and when you've left school at the age of 14 and you have no qualifications, no job experience, then everything is much more difficult.

And I do remember going into a careers advice centre when I first came back to the UK when I was 17 and saying I'd quite like to be a psychologist without really knowing much more than that at that point. And she tried to encourage me to become a hairdresser instead, because hairdressing is much easier to get into. You didn't need qualifications for it. I could do an apprenticeship or whatever. And she told me that it would take a very long time, and it's very competitive and very academic, essentially. She was saying that she didn't believe that I would be capable because I was a young parent. I was a single mom by that point and obviously had no qualifications. So my dreams at that moment were completely destroyed. And I did go and try hairdressing. Hairdressing was not for me. I love hairdressers. I have a lot of respect for them.

It was not the right job for me. I simply could not get on with it. So I spent a few years feeling quite disheartened, not really knowing where to go, what to do with my life because people had shut me down. But I did have this internal dream to be a psychologist of some type and help people. And it was then several years later that I, by that point, met my now husband, and he was the person that really strongly advocated that I study psychology. He felt that it would fulfil me and that my life would completely change rather than feeling so stuck. And that's when I really felt that yes, actually I could look at doing this. I can look at studying online, which I did my degree with the open university. And I also felt that it would be really inspiring and powerful for my little boy to see, so that by the time he became 18, he'd be able to say, actually, my mom had worked really hard to give me a better life and to better herself. So that's the snapshot story of my dreams to become a psychologist and the hard work that needed to go into it.

Amazing. But what if that first careers advisor had given you the support and encouragement that your now husband did, because that actually would've really sped up the journey for you and would've validated that rather than dismissing and disparaging your dreams and shooting you down.

Yeah, yeah. I think that things could have been very, very different. So I think that I could have had a couple of years where I wasn't as lost and didn't feel so terrible about myself because I was essentially believing what she'd said, that I wasn't capable, that I wasn't good enough, I wasn't clever enough. All of those not very nice things that she shared. So life would've been very different in that sense. But also if she would've supported me to find the way, then I think I would've had perhaps a more normal, not normal, but maybe more typical study experience. So for example, I could have gone to college, I would've attained my GCSEs perhaps than I would've gone to college and done A levels, and then perhaps I could have gone to a university in person to complete my degree. Whereas instead, I found myself not doing A levels at all, jumping straight to an open university degree.

And as much as I'm extremely thankful through the open university and I owe them an awful and awful lot, I definitely missed out on having the experience of going to university. I always struggled to make friends because being a young mom and making friends can be extremely challenging, and I always felt very isolated and different from other people my age, and that wasn't helped by the fact that I was then doing everything remotely whilst also working. I had to have a full-time job to pay the bills whilst also trying to be a mom and then obviously a student at night. I spent every single evening as soon as my little boy went to bed with my laptop studying. So it was absolutely exhausting, and I do believe that it didn't need to be that difficult that if that person would've been kinder and would've supported me, then I feel that I could have one, got to becoming a qualified psychologist sooner, but also enjoyed the journey a lot more. Whereas for me, the journey was not enjoyable. I've only just started enjoying life the last three, four years since I've qualified.

And I think if people are watching or listening to this episode and they're like, right, okay, now what next? I think I'm right in saying that it's kind of dependent on where people live. So there might be local charities that are supporting teenage mothers and their families and their children, but actually there's a provision in local councils called Early Help, which is not the same as kind of children in need and having to be involved. And probably like any areas, some of the early help departments are better than others, but they might well be able to signpost you to other relevant agencies. Is that right?

Yes, absolutely. Please have a look at what's in your local area, and it is also worth looking out to see if there are any children's centres in your area. There are still some shore start centres around. Again, it is very much dependent on where you live in the country, but there is support out there. You just have to sometimes dig a little bit to find it.

Thank you so much. Where can people learn more about you and your work, Dr. Hayley?

So I have a website that people can access, which is Lou gasey learning solutions.uk. So that's where they can find out a bit more about the work that I do as an educational psychologist, as well as the public speaking and training support that you offer to schools and organisations.

Amazing. If anyone's listening to this, I'm wondering how we spell legasse. It's L-U-G-A-S-S-Y, but all of the details will be in the show notes and in the description. Hayley, thank you so much for the work that you do. I'm so pleased that ultimately it's had a lovely outcome for you and your family and well done on the incredible work you do as a qualified educational psychologist too. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you.

I love my chat with Dr. Hayley, and I hope you did too. If you did, please do let us know in the comments either on YouTube or on Spotify, what you thought to the episode. You can also reach out to me wherever you are on social media where I'm Dr. Marianne Trent. I would love it if you would start sharing your favourite episodes to your social media stories and accounts and tag me, Dr. Marianne Trent, and I would love to get to know you there. Has Dr. Hayley's story inspired you? I do hope so. I hope that we are beginning to shape and change the narrative, and I would love to know your opinion. If you are an aspiring psychologist and you're looking to get your foot in the door to be able to think about all things psychology and the types of conversations psychologists have, please do consider joining the Aspiring Psychologist membership, which you can do from just 30 pounds a month with no minimum term. Head to www.aspiringpsychologist.co.uk. If you are a really big fan of the show and of me as a creator, you can also join my Paid podcast Membership community, which you can do on YouTube. You can do on Apple Podcasts and directly through Captivate. You can get exclusive subscriber only content and early access to the podcast too. Check out all the details in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. If you're looking to become a

Psychologist, this podcast, you'll with Dr. Entrance.