Welcome!

In this episode we continue the banter with my friend Rene.

Enjoy!

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Rebecca

Disclaimer: The information presented on this podcast is solely for information purposes. We do not provide medical, legal, financial, or other professional advice through this podcast and we are not responsible for any errors or omissions. It is your responsibility to seek advice from a licensed professional. Any actions you take are done at your own risk.

Um, and then you also have, you know, parents that are aging.

So like how, how do you feel like this fits in your brain?

I think I, I feel very lucky that I can have open conversations

with both of my parents.

I also feel very lucky that my parents are relatively healthy for

people who are in their eighties.

Right.

My mom, um, is still living independently and my dad and stepmom actually travel

quite extensively and are extremely active, and so I don't really have any

caregiving responsibilities towards them.

What I, what I do feel acutely is that time is limited, right?

So they're both eighties, so they, they're both have lived beyond what

is considered to be normal life expectancy, average life expectancy.

So I do feel this sense of pressure to have experiences to.

Maybe show up for family functions, or, I really like traveling

with my dad and stepmom and to just see them and be with them.

And I noticed that the time that we used to spend doing things, now

we spend a lot of time talking.

And I'll ask my dad a lot about, well, tell me more about your dad, you know, my

grandfather, and tell me, you know, there was just some whole family histories and

stories that I, that I didn't know about.

And I'm, I'm finding myself very interested in learning about

all aspects of my family before they're, before they're gone.

So let me ask you a question.

How, um, knowing that your parents are still relatively healthy so

you can have experiences with them, how do you know it's enough?

Do you feel, uh, like I know you're particularly close with your dad

and you, you seek his advice on things and, and I love your dad too.

He's, he's really fun to talk to.

Um, How, how do you decide in your brain, I know you have demands from

your children, from your job, from, you know, other things in life and,

and how do you get to some end of a week or a month and say, I spent

enough time talking to my dad.

Is that something you inherently know?

Do you always feel like, I'm not spending enough time with him.

Time is running short, you know, he could go any minute.

And do you put that kind of pressure on yourself or is it like

organic, like you call your dad once a week and that seems enough?

Like how do you know, like how do you decide that?

I think that I just have this sense of, uh, reaching out and

saying I want to talk to him today.

And they also travel a lot.

And so they will be unavailable for periods of time, like several

months, um, where I don't see them like they are living in Hawaii

for the next three months or.

Um, last year they took a extended trip to, to, um, Egypt

and Saudi Arabia and Israel.

So, you know, for those periods of time, which are sometimes, you know, several

months, um, I may not hear from 'em.

And I do feel a bit of a gap when I can't talk to them.

And I also feel like they're a great example of how to live your best life

when you're older and stay active.

And they play tennis and they just seem really happy and

they're people that worked really, really hard all of their lives.

And so it's really great to see them enjoying everything

that they work so hard for.

And I think they're a good example of, you know, sort of redefining

what aging parents are when your own parents are traveling and playing

tennis more than you're able to do Yes.

This time in your life.

So I think that's really interesting.

Um, So you don't have sort of this lingering sense that you should

be spending more time with him?

Or like, has it ever crossed over into, oh my gosh, I should be, you know, taking two

weeks off of work and going to Hawaii with them, which I know you've done before, but

Uhhuh, um, like where's the limit for you?

Like how do you find that balance?

I mean, I know you're working full-time, um, you still have a kid at home.

Like, what is that conversation like in your head?

How does it not veer into, oh my God, they're 80 and they're

traveling to, you know, this really beautiful part of the country.

I'm gonna stop what I'm doing and go do it.

I know there's practical limitations to that, but like,

what is that conversation like?

I, well, we've talked about that and they, they have said to me, you know,

we are, we're reaching a time where we know that we have an end and we

don't know when that end will be.

Maybe in a hot air balloon, just tell 'em maybe.

Right, right, right.

So, I.

They, they, they are feeling that their lives are more compressed

and that the end is nearer.

And you know, I asked my dad, well, how long do you think you're gonna live?

And he says, I'm gonna live till I'm a hundred.

And you know, he does have, I think his mom lived until

she was in her mid nineties.

So that could be a very realistic expectation.

Also given the fact that he is really healthy.

Um, so I I, I look at it like they are also creating some, some awareness and

are open to having conversations that they know that their time is limited.

And my family always was focused on experiences and not things growing up.

So we didn't have a lot of toys.

We didn't have fancy cars or boats or, but we did things together.

And when we were younger and we were living overseas, we traveled.

We went to Europe and Asia and Africa and all these incredible experiences.

And so we have experiences.

That's why I will go to Hawaii with them, you know, for two weeks.

Um, you know, my family this summer is going to South Africa

and my brother's going and some of my stepmom's kids are going.

And I was invited and I thought about it, but my son, um, who's

in high school did not want to go.

And I just felt like this wasn't the right time.

And so I, I'm not going to join them on the trip to South Africa.

Um, but, you know, hopefully they'll, maybe there'll be another

time when they want to go back.

Cuz they said that was a, a life changing trip for them.

And they also had invited me to go to Israel and Egypt with 'em.

But again, I still have a child that, you know, requires my presence and.

Love and oversight.

So I'm, I'm not gonna Oh, pesty children.

Yes.

Requiring that.

Yes.

So I'm not, you know, I'm not at a point in my life where I can just

take off for two weeks and my vacation schedule tends to mirror the schedule

of my children's vacation from school.

I, I'm gonna ask you a question and it's okay for you to say it.

Maybe it's too uncomfortable.

And I'm gonna speak from a perspective that the vast majority of people, I

would include myself in this group, that, um, would not necessarily have

parents that, uh, that are in any position whatsoever to, you know, go

into this sort of step care independent living or provide private care duty for

themselves if that's what they want to do.

It's, it's pretty much either you have private funding to do that or

you've, you know, saved or planned your retirement or, or had successes

in life to be able to do that.

And honestly, the, it's, it's kind of a binary route or it's sort of the,

you have what you have to retire, but you're gonna spend through that

and go through a Medicaid process.

Should you need some sort of assist, you know, uh, nursing home

placement or something like that.

Um, and so my question is if, if you are a child of a parent who has say

a nest egg, uh, $500,000, a million dollars, something like that, and

there's sort of this, I would think this setup of this weird competition

between, um, an estate of money that's theirs that could be inherited, and

then also a medical condition that could arise that would run through this.

And I've had other people talk about this conundrum of sort of obviously

hoping that their parent, like has just enough money to run through

this and their life to basically have nothing left at the end, um, but not

enough money to where they could live off the interest of their own wealth.

And so, um, and maybe this is an unfair question, but I always wondered when

I had heard these stories about it not knowing, knowing that this wouldn't

not necessarily be my story, but.

This idea that there's sort of this competition between their health

and their placement needs, right.

And the survival of any amount of estate for you or your, your children

or grandchildren or whatever.

Does that ever cross your mind?

Like how do you think about that?

Well, I always think of it as my parents' money is theirs to do with as they please.

And that they have always been very generous with their resources and their

time, and that I should expect nothing and that I should save and prepare for

my own retirement and how I want to live, but that they don't owe me anything.

And so I don't, I think of it like it belongs to them.

It's their estate and it's designed to care for them when they age

in whatever way they choose.

And if we know that taking care of my, my neighbor had 24 hour

care for her elderly mother and.

That was $10,000 a month.

And so if you're gonna do that and have, you know, a wandering adult who's up at

night and you have to have someone in the home at night making sure that they

don't, you know, walk out the back door, um, it's extremely expensive to do that.

And, you know, I, I think that that will be certainly a discussion that

will have to take place as they become less able to, to do things and, and not

quite as mobile, um, is who's going to facilitate them staying in the home.

And do you feel resources and sort of with this regard for their estate,

which are now separate because they're divorced, um, do you feel like your

siblings have that same sentiment?

Like, or have you come across colleagues or friends that have had.

Drama about this topic before?

Very much so.

I think also when there's a blended family, um, that there can be a lot of of

hurt if there is not a discussion about how things will be divided, especially

when there's kids from both parents.

Um, and that can be a source of a lot of pain if people feel

like they're being disinherited.

You know, my dad and Step had been married a long, long time, and so they, they were

very clear with us that everything would be divided between my stepmom's three kids

and then my dad's three kids, and that we would all share equally in the estate.

The other thing that they did that was phenomenally interesting to me is that

they wrote down all their list of most valuable possessions onto an Excel

spreadsheet, and they sent it to all of us and they said, what do you want?

Interesting.

And we want everybody to sign up for the top three things

that you want from our estate.

Was it like first come, first serve?

How did you do that?

How so We, well, what they did is they took the top three items and because

they wanted, they were gonna have people choose, but they, what are these like

baseball cards or like what are they?

No, they were like pieces of art.

Okay.

Um, they were, um, like my, I think my dad had civil war pistols at

one point, like pieces of jewelry.

Um, you know, they don't have a lot of high value in terms of dollar,

but they have things that they each brought into the marriage that means

something for each respective family.

Like my stepmom, her mom painted pictures and she wanted to make

sure that her children would get their grandmother's artwork.

If that's what they wanted.

Right.

And I felt the same way.

Like when my parents lived in Japan, there were pictures that they had purchased.

Um, two of them they purchased because they looked like me when I was young.

And so I said, I want the, the, the portraits, the Japanese portraits,

and I want this picture of this tree.

Um, because that is what I remember growing up.

I remember when my parents bought those items together.

Um, but what was very interesting is that out of all the six kids, not one

of us had any items that overlapped.

Like we each picked something that we thought was valuable to us, and

no other child picked that same item.

Wow.

And some people didn't even respond, I guess.

And like I told my stepmom, I'd love to have a piece of jewelry that you

give to me, whatever it is that has meaning and the rest of it, you know.

It doesn't, it doesn't matter.

But that, that process of, I think of ding up belongings.

Um, my stepmom and my dad had gone through a very difficult process

when their mother, when his mom died, about bickering over things

and they didn't want us to bicker.

So they also put something in the will that if anybody challenged

the will, um, and filed a lawsuit, that they would get a dollar.

That is awesome.

That's actually written.

And we were all told that if you file, you know, a legal, you know, challenge

to this will, um, you will get a dollar.

Wow.

Which I think is brilliant.

Yeah.

You know, they, they want all of us to know you're being treated the same and

there's, there's no favorites here and.

This is the way it's gonna be.

So I'm gonna go into a, um, a different type of podcast.

So this is, thank you so much.

This is going great.

Um, I wanna talk about the email you got from your mom.

Can we do that?

You think so?

Yeah.

Okay.

So thank you everyone for joining us.

I have my very dear friend Renee with us again.

Um, and as you know, um, part of our mission here is to bring difficult

conversations to, uh, working professionals, uh, that are listening

and dealing with very similar, um, you know, challenges in their life.

And, um, I think it's important that we open up our conversations and

our minds and our hearts and, um, bring some of these things that are

very difficult out into the open and allow for conversation and dialogue.

Sometimes that alone, uh, seems to be part of the.

Wellness and healing process for it.

So, um, the reason I brought you here today was to talk about, and

I know this is gonna sound like a fairly benign thing, but I think it's

a big thing and I think it's a very common problem that, that we face.

Um, and that's basically getting difficult emails from difficult people.

Oh yes.

And, um, I'll take it up a not and say if it's an email from a person that you are

related to, particularly a parent, that this can really, really stop your day.

Um, it's very loaded.

It's way different than getting an email from Best Buy about,

you know, a weekend sale.

And I think there are a lot of us that get an email from a parent in our heart

basically skips a little bit or we get a little bit, um, hypertensive and

we haven't even opened it yet because there's so many stories and there's so

much context and background and baggage.

That can be related to a very simple, um, request or, or statement.

Um, and I love downloading this with you because we can trade

these instances and they look so different to somebody who doesn't

have the context and the background and the, and the stories with it.

But let's just start by saying, um, can you just set up the context

of, of what generated this email?

Uh, and we'll start there.

Sure.

So my mom had decided that she was going to throw herself an 80th birthday

party, and she, um, is not married.

And I knew that this was going on because my, my brothers were talking about it

like, this is coming, be ready and.

I didn't know when it was gonna be or what it was gonna look like.

Um, but I knew that she was planning something for herself and that was

about all the information I had.

Okay.

Um, and then how do y'all normally communicate by text

or email or phone calls?

So, my mom does not text, which is difficult.

So my mom also has some trouble sometimes getting email to work.

So usually I would say by email or, um, she still has a landline phone and that's

actually the best way to reach her.

I've tried to get her to use her phone, um, like somebody would use

it in 2023, which is right actually, you know, doing text messages.

And I've told her, you know, you can be more informed about

what your grandkids are doing.

Your grandkids are not gonna call you on the landline.

Um, you know, but she just won't.

She, she thinks her cell phone is for emergencies only and she

actually doesn't turn it on, so she doesn't have the ability to text.

So you either have to call her on the landline or you have to send her an email.

So getting an email from her is not unusual in and of itself

as a form of communication.

Okay.

So what did the email say?

Um, it said, I want all my children there meaning to come to my party and I have

already discussed it with your brothers.

And, um, you know, they're coming and the weekend of September 21st, we'll

just pick a day cuz it was in September.

Works best.

Does that work for you?

So that sounds like a fairly benign email, but I want to know the first thought

that came to your head when you read it.

The first thought is that my, my mom is not negotiating with me.

That she's throwing down a demand that I show up without regards to my

schedule and what's going on, and that she's also kind of colluded with my

brothers to find a time that works for them when in fact I have the most

restrictive schedule out of everybody.

Talk.

Talk more about that.

So my brothers, um, if this party is gonna take place in September,

both of my brothers, all of their children will be in college.

And so they don't really have any restrictions on their time anymore.

Whereas I will still have a son in high school that has, um, weekend

activities and sporting events, and I'm really a single parent of him.

And so I don't tend to travel a lot, um, during the school year

where I have to leave him alone and.

Um, it just, it's a lot more difficult for me because I still

have a child living at home.

So one of the things, um, that you'll hear, um, us talk about in the podcast

when we do talk, so we, even when we're talking without it being recorded or

anybody else listening to it, um, is really downloading and almost putting

some of the thoughts on a spotlight and asking more questions about it.

Uh, and if, if, if you hear us talking that way, it's never to dismiss how the

other person is thinking or feeling.

The ultimate question is really looking at it with curiosity.

Like, this is what my brain made this mean.

Um, and then us challenging each other to say, you know,

are those thoughts serving us?

What do those mean?

Um, how do we move forward?

How do we advocate for ourselves?

You know, and, and so I, I say these questions in an exploratory curiosity way.

So if the last line of the email was, does this work for you?

It sounds like you didn't actually.

Interpret that as an actual, does this work for you?

So how did your brain get from, does this work for you?

Which would sound like in an objective way, uh, hey, maybe I'm

open to this not working for you.

Um, so what it really meant was this better work for you?

How do you know that?

Um, based on the tone of the email and the fact that I've already made

arrangements with your brothers.

Oh.

Kind of ups the ante in terms of we've already made plans

like, don't screw it up.

You know, like, don't be the one that says no or that doesn't show up, or

that doesn't, that makes it, it was, it was sort of at the end to be nice.

Like, um, so it was kind of a you need to be here.

This is important to me.

Correct.

The other two are coming.

Oh, does this work for you?

Right, right.

This doesn't really fit with the tone of the rest of the email.

I see.

Okay.

Um, yeah.

So what would an email from somebody that you would think was actually

interested in whether or not it worked for you, what would that read like?

So, uh, how about a greeting?

Hello.

Right?

Instead of, okay.

No, that's, you're asking for too much once my children here instead

of a, a demand that sounded like, you know, non-negotiable, you know.

Hi, Renee.

Um, I know you're busy.

How are things?

We haven't talked in a couple weeks.

Um, hey, I would really love to have you come down and celebrate my 80th

birthday and your brothers and I have been talking about some possible times

and before we decide on a date, you know, is there a particular month

that could work better for you?

Because I'd really like you to comment.

It's important for, you know, for me to celebrate this milestone with you.

I think that's what a healthy conversation would've sounded like.

So what, um, so your initial thought was, she's not really

asking if it works for you.

She's sort of making a demand.

Did you reply?

Did you wait?

What did you do?

So I waited.

I, I have a very, I have a longstanding relationship with

the therapist who's very helpful.

And we talked about, you know, what it meant and my reactions and because I

was very angry and sometimes I can't figure out why I'm so mad and I, I know

that I have to trust that feeling and I have to think about it before I reply.

And so I showed it to you and we talked about what it meant as well.

And then I did decide how I was going to reply, which was, um,

very, you know, upbeat and jovial.

And with a true there, there's only two things I could do.

One is just comply and feel resentment, which, why would you have felt resentment?

Because I was doing something that I didn't want to do at a

time that I didn't want to do it.

Why was that?

Um, I did not want to go in September.

I really would rather be with my son at his water polo tournament.

Right.

So that, that's your value system.

That's my value system right now is supporting this child

until he at the highest level, until he goes on to college.

Right.

And I felt that I, I needed to do that.

And one of the things that has been very important to me as I get older

and as I navigate some of these very torturous waters in relationships is

that I do not acquiesce, um, if I feel like it's going to lead to resentment.

Interesting.

Because that's a, that is a warning feeling to me that I am

out of my integrity and that I am.

Ignoring my own feelings, wants and desires, and, and sacrificing myself

to keep the peace or for someone else.

Okay.

Renee, you have to stop right there.

There is no way that was you at age 20, 25, maybe even 30.

So where did this awareness that, you know, a demand comes from a

loved one that's super charged with sort of expectations and, uh, maybe

not coming across in a way that honors your value system or even

acknowledges that you might have other things happening at that time Yes.

In your life, which would demonstrate her awareness of your son's activities

or your activities or what some of your constraints might be.

So where, and maybe this is a bigger question for a whole other podcast,

but where can you pinpoint sort of a, a turning point of you saying, oh wait.

I am gonna answer this honestly.

Well let, let's go back to the answer real quick.

So what did you reply to her?

So I said, um, you know, thank you for the invitation.

It's it sound, I know that this is a milestone birthday for you

and I'd love to participate.

July would be better for me.

And what happened after that?

She has not responded.

And how long has it been?

Two weeks.

Fascinating.

And what are, what are you making that mean?

I'm, I am making it mean nothing.

I really, she nothing, it doesn't mean anything.

It, it just because you're answering the question honestly, which I'll

be damned if that isn't something really hard to learn to do.

Yes.

Right.

Would you like to show up at this conference and speak at on Tuesday?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It sounds I would love nothing more.

Right.

I mean, and so we're, we have a lot of conditioned responses.

Yeah.

Um, and I think some of them are gender based, some of them are cultural.

Almost all of them are learned.

Yes.

And so, where in your life, if you had to sort of trace back and say,

here is a, a time in my life where I started recognizing resentment or

potential resentment as a red flag, as like, you know, a check engine

light and thinking differently and, and an answering honestly.

Like how did you get there?

Were you always there?

Like, where, where did this come from?

I think it came from my enculturation as a people pleaser and somehow

thinking that my own thoughts, feelings, and actions could influence

the behavior of another human being.

Ouch.

And yes.

And.

If I only did, you know, this one thing, or I, I acquiesced and made this person

happy, um, that they would, you know, treat me differently or I would see

myself differently or the relationship.

And what I realized, because I was a people pleaser and I would

always sacra sacrifice myself first, is there's no limit.

When you are involved in those types of relationships to what people

will take from you and expecting them to take less will never work.

So telling them you're overdrafted doesn't matter.

Doesn't change their behavior.

It doesn't.

And, and to try, when you've been someone who's given a lot to a

relationship and then you suddenly say, wow, this really isn't working for me.

You should stop asking.

It never works that way.

Right?

There isn't some, some light bulb that goes off and is like, oh, I had no idea

that no, this wasn't working for you.

No, you have to be the one, you have to have the agency of your

own life and the awareness of your own, you know, boundaries of what

you can give to a situation or a person, um, to say, yeah, I can't do

that, or That doesn't work for me.

And it took me so long to be able to feel like I could, first of all, understand

all the emotions that came with those situations because I didn't have the

words to describe what I was feeling.

I just knew that I felt bad or I felt angry, or I felt like I didn't want

to talk to that person right now.

Like there were these warning signs.

And what I realized is that it was someone pushing up against my boundaries and

that I didn't have an effective way to.

Um, assert myself or make my wishes known, or even I would say, come into

the relationship or the situation with being able to negotiate a compromise.

So I find this fascinating, um, that's something that you had to have

modeled for you or read about or had sort of a thought leader that sort

of gave you this idea that maybe you didn't have to like, answer in a way

that says, yes mom, I'll be there.

What else can I bring?

Right.

Can you point to anybody like that or any Yeah.

Resources.

I think, um, I started reading books by Harriet Lerner and she

does a lot about, um, family systems and she's a psychologist.

She talks a lot about, her books are usually started with

a title like the Dance of and.

Her book, the Dance of Anger was very important.

You know, why we feel anger towards certain people or situations.

And I started really looking at anger as a trigger for me and what was it telling me?

And that was really important.

I think also, there were a couple of podcasts I listened to by Brene

Brown and she talked very specifically about her own people pleasing

tendencies and what that meant.

And that saying yes to certain things, you know, means saying no to yourself.

And, um, how many, how many you, you, you cannot keep doing that.

And uh, so when I heard you talk about this email, and I, you know,

we've talked about this topic several times, both sides of, you know, um,

working or dealing with parents and.

And trying to, you know, live in your value system, but then having

some difficulties that come up.

I saw it as very much part of her pattern of communication with you,

which is, like you said, just a lack of a greeting, a warm greeting.

Hello.

How are you?

I'm con, you know, I hope this is reaching you at a time that you know, you're,

you're doing well or how are the kids?

But it was basically, hello, demand, are you gonna come?

And I thought about this could be extrapolated into a childhood, which

would be a very, um, or could be characterized as, um, challenging

to deal with that, um, as a mother.

Um, and I'm interested to know what your psychologist thought, how

this might have fitted into, fit into the greater concept of sort

of your relationship with your mom.

I think, um, this is very typical of my relationship with my mother.

My mom was, um, very demanding.

My mom had, I think, undiagnosed mental illness when I was younger.

Um, she was very anxious, followed by periods of depression.

And, you know, back in the sixties and seventies, you just didn't talk

about those things or, you know, a lot of times people just drank really

heavily and, you know, that's how they coped with their mental illness.

Luckily my mom, you know, never did that.

Um, but she, I think, expected things for me that were, um, should not have

been expected of a young child and really heaped a lot of responsibility on me.

That really wasn't my burden to bear.

Um, and it's taken me a long time.

I mean, it, it's really no surprise then that I would go into a.

A field, you know, of medicine where you're expected to manage

multiple things at the same time and give, and give and give until

you can't, simply can't anymore.

And so that process, I think of knowing that I was going to, you know, either

burn out or I couldn't manage all the demands of a family and a career,

really made me just start thinking about my own life and what, um, what

boundaries that I needed in place for my own physical and mental health.

Um, and also, um, going through a very challenging situation with my husband

at the time, who was an, was an addict.

And so I became involved in, you know, AA and going to Al-Anon, which

was actually very helpful because.

They have a lot of, um, material about boundaries and they

call it staying in your lane.

And that was the first time that I really learned about some of those issues.

And I think that was very important.

And I also learned about things like, um, radical honesty and being

responsible for myself and myself only.

Um, I think that was very important for understanding my relationship with

my mother and also developing better coping mechanisms and the ability to

respond to those situations and to not, and also allow my mother to sit

with her own discomfort and anger about a situation like it's not my

responsibility to make her feel better.

So that's a lot of information that I think is very key.

And I want your opinion or just sort of to digest this idea, um, like when

you said, um, that you could have radical honesty with responding and you

responded the way you responded and you said, Hey, July works for me better.

I kind of think of it like, if I was reading this as a dude and they

take it literally and the mom is like, Hey, does this work for you?

And you're like, no, this is better.

And they don't maybe have the same drama that we have in our brains Yes.

About interpreting it or wondering what they could have meant, or, and

I wonder, you know, the magic in this stage of life would be the permission

to answer questions honestly.

And.

That radical, you know, wellness or self-care is doing exactly what you did,

which I think, I know it sounds like this is one reply to one email, but this is

a much bigger thing because if we are in a situation where we're dealing with

our kids and our careers and our aging parents and we get, we get requests all

the time that give us a twinge, right?

Mm-hmm.

That make our stomach turn a little bit, not because we don't love that

person, not because we don't love, you know, doing whatever they do.

It's because we know it doesn't work and we know what that's gonna cost.

And you do immediately, that would cost you a tournament with your son.

Yeah.

Right.

And you knew immediately it would cost, what did you say, seven or $800.

Yeah.

Right.

Which I know that's not the, the biggest part of it, but, and that would cost

you some days off of work to go do this.

Sure.

And the idea that you count in the discussion.

Is, I think so critical to how our inner dialogue has to change as we get

older, as we step into this sort of phase of life where it feels like there

are a million plates in the air and what worked for us when we were 25 and

agreeable and people pleasing and, and getting ahead and getting rewarded for

that, that there's this awakening that maybe all of us are at different stages

of, of just saying July works better.

Yeah.

And, and living in that, and it being the answer.

Because it's the answer.

Because writing back to say, geez, you know, I, I, this

is really important to you.

Um, I'll make it work.

Which is the worst thing I say sometimes, right?

Oh, yeah.

And I like, every time I tell somebody this, I'll make it work.

I feel like I just let myself down.

Like there's a part of me that dies every time I write this in a text message.

Or an email at work and it's like, don't worry, I'll make it work.

Right?

And what I'm doing is I'm promising my future sanity, my future time

resources that I don't know the depth of just yet, or that I'm not sure I'm

gonna have that I'm not sure I'm gonna have, so that you can feel better.

And I just wanted to take this podcast to talk about this very specific issue,

not so much about, you know, your mom's birthday, but that it's a microcosm.

When we talked about this, I was like, this is a microcosm of where we, we

can get to in our mindsets, in our conversations, or internal conversations

that will help us survive this time.

And not only show up for them, you'll show up for her in July.

Right?

Show up for ourselves.

And I, and I think it's important that we have to continue this dialogue that,

where did you matter in this conversation?

Because I can tell you that you can become very conditioned

to being the first person out.

Right.

And I am, I think I'm a master of this, which is I know how much I can

take, I can be very uncomfortable, I can be very stretched thin.

And I live with people that have, you know, much lower thresholds.

And I think, well, I have a very high threshold for being uncomfortable.

Yes.

Right.

So I'll bring, um, jackets for everybody else, but Oh, there's not

enough room in the suitcase, so I won't bring a jacket for myself.

I'll figure it out.

Yes.

And there's a point at which I'll it out and I'll just be cold and

I'm okay with it, and I'm not gonna bitch and complain and ruin everybody

else this time, but I'm cold.

And it's almost like, well, where did I figure in this?

And, and I, and I know this sounds, you know, silly, but there's this

point of like the all fi the all figure it out is sort of this

like very subtle betrayal Yes.

Of knowing that it doesn't work, that there is a, of

course there's a cost, right.

And that's what Brene Brown talks about.

The betrayal of yourself to make someone else happy.

Right.

Because, but because what do we talk about?

What are the main constraints?

Right.

Our constraints in life are our time, our attention, and our money.

And to me, those are the, there, there are some combination of

costs in any given situation.

Now, money, you could argue, okay, well if you have a lot of money, maybe

that isn't as much of a constraint.

Or if you have very little money, it's a huge constraint.

But if we'll put that on the shelf for now, to me the most critical

thing is my time and attention.

And what happened when you got this email, what I saw happen in your brain

was, and to, to step us through this, is that you had different parts of

your value system come into conflict.

And you had to decide and, and make a decision about what your true value

system was and your value system is that your son is, you know, going through

his last couple of years of high school.

This is an extremely important weekend for him.

This is an extremely important event and you wanna be there.

Yes.

And you wanna live into that.

And, and to me, You know, you could make up all sorts of stories about, you know,

what you replied or that she didn't reply.

And the beautiful part of this story is that you mattered and he mattered

and you've replied in an honest way.

And I, and I'd hate to think that, that this is rocket science and that we're

not doing this, but I know we're not because I talk to women every single day

who don't matter in those conversations.

And I'm talking about successful, you know, professionally successful

Type A, you know, you look at their LinkedIn page and you're

like, this person is phenomenal.

And right around the corner from that is extremely what I would call almost

dysfunctional, borderline thinking about how little they tend tend to

matter in these types of transactions.

What is your experience with that?

Especially with, I would say, sort of highly, you know, high performing

women in professional settings.

Like to me it's almost like pathological at some point, but, but

what's your experience with them?

I think for me, The former self me 20 years ago, probably would've not been

able to face it and would've just made something up like, oh, I have a really

important, I'm on call that weekend.

I, I can't go.

And to me, I, I, I would rather that, you know, have lied than faced

the feelings that I had surrounding this very difficult conversation.

And I am so not like that anymore.

And I feel like I want to respond with that situation with respect that it's

important to my mother, but also with integrity about my most precious resource,

which is my time and how I spend it.

Right.

And while she deserves it, It may not be at the time that she insists upon.

Right?

And I recognize the importance of the occasion.

I recog and I, you know, could plan to come in July over a long weekend.

But if you insist on having a time that it doesn't work for me or my family,

then I'm not going to be present.

And to me, that is standing firm in my integrity and my honesty and

saying, you know, this is what I'm able to do in this, in this situation.

And I feel it still does, it still makes me cringe and feel uncomfortable

because I know that that may be, you know, there'll be some.

Backlash or the worst thing that happens in my family is that maybe my mom

won't deal with me directly and she'll get one of my brothers to call me.

Oh, great.

What would that look like?

So that would be a, gee, you know, mom's really disappointed in you.

Um, you know, she really wants you to come and we have this all planned.

And so I also have to then, cuz this has happened before, tell my brother,

you know, this isn't your business and this is a situation that mom

and I have to talk about directly.

And those are also difficult conversations too, because we've all been taught to

triangulate rather than having direct conversations with, with one another.

Right.

Don't gang up on me, don't pun, don't be part of this power driver, you know?

And, and mom and I have to be adults and we have to work through this together.

And I, and I told her my response would be, you know, I, I gave

her a time that works for me.

And I said that in the email, I understand that this may not work for the group.

You know, and that, that you may have to, you know, have the party without me.

Right.

There's my permission.

Right.

Yeah.

I, I think that that emerges as a core superpower in navigating this part of

life, which is, I'll borrow your word from aa, the, the radical honesty and

keeping up sort of this charade that everybody matters at all times and

that you're willing and able to do all things at all times for everyone.

Um, is, is dishonest.

Um, it is to yourself and maybe to them and at the end of the day, um, a way

to have a fulfilled relationship with them and with yourself at the same time.

Um, even if you have to change a pattern, which it sounds like you had to do.

Yes, I did.

Right?

Because this wasn't something you did when you were 18 or 25.

Um, and I think a lot of us find ourselves growing into that.

Um, is, is being very direct and very frank.

Um, and as uncomfortable as that may feel, it, it just seems to me like a

magic sauce or like a secret sauce of, oh, that's how you're gonna make it.

And that's how, you know, when your son gets out of the pool that day and

he's really let down because he, you know, the team lost at the last second.

Or he gets outta the pool that day and he's elated because he had a great game.

And, and the universe will reveal to you at that time what this was about.

Um, and so I think of, you know, sort of this anticipatory resentment

or anticipatory regret not being about your mom, nothing to do with

your relationship with your mom, but your future self tugging at you.

And when we stopped listening to her, or never started listening

to her to begin with, Right.

Or we're, or we're sort of like conditioned ourselves to make sure

she didn't matter because it was very inconvenient when she was tugging

and tugging when we were having children and starting our careers

and trying to balance everything.

I think it's, it's this, this idea that she's not just tugging, she needs

to be at the head of the table and her knowing, and her wisdom and her

life experience is saying, well, I have a lot of things that matter to

me and I only have 24 hours in a day.

So, um, this concept that we all have equivalent time wealth in any given

day, so everybody gets 24 hours, right?

And how we spend it reflects her value system.

Um, and that you're living into your value system.

And when you're living into that, like you said, it doesn't mean you're not

gonna get some, you know, nasty text message from your brother or that

your mom won't write something back.

That, that, you know, sort of is kind of sappy or sad or

something that there will be that.

But that you get to live in integrity and that that's the greatest gift

you can give to yourself and to her.

Yes.

And at the end of the day, and we won't get into sort of these I dynamics of,

you know, how our parents love us or if they love us or how they express that.

At the end of the day, I, whenever I'm, I'm worried about this, I think

if I'm dealing with somebody who loves me, then they'll respect this.

Yes.

And that doesn't mean they're gonna write an email that says, oh my gosh,

you know, of course July's fine.

Right.

That doesn't mean that looks like they don't even have to behave that way.

I just have to know inherently in this relationship, if they love me, they know

me, they know I have values, they know I have integrity and myself, and I'm

living into that, then they'll trust that.

And that to me is the, those magical relationships you have in your life where

they inherently trust what you're able to do and not able to do without question.

And you never seem to have enjoyed that with your own mother.

As long as I've known you.

I would agree.

Um, I I just had a fleeting thought about that.

So tell me the, the last thought that you had before you just said that cuz there

was, there was something else important in there that we needed to unpack.

So I think, um, that I inherently trust that people who love me will honor and

respect what I know I can and cannot do.

Okay.

So that's because you're an emotionally healthy individual.

And when I'm dealing with my mother, sometimes the most important

thing is that she gets her way.

And how does that make you feel?

Um, like I'm dealing with a spoiled child.

Right?

Right.

And that it's more important to her to trample my integrity

and to have her own way.

And that those two are.

They're, they're one or the other, they can't coexist.

But what I love is the power of being able to think about this.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take back some of your adjectives because it

sounds like a very active thing to Sam.

I'm trampling your integrity.

Like, and I want to change the adjectives or change the verbs in a way that

she can exist in a neutral fashion.

That this is, and I know it doesn't feel like this being the child of someone who

has these behaviors, but there is there a place that you can get to where she is?

That is how she, and, and when we talked about this a couple times ago,

you said, that's, I've come to know that that is what I should expect of

her in an almost like neutral way.

And what that leaves you with once that's sort of solved for.

That you're not trying to change her, which has been another evolution.

Right?

Right.

You're not trying to incentivize different behavior.

You've tried that.

I know you have, you've, you've tried to sort of coach her on ways that

she can show up for you differently.

Yes.

And there's gonna be a point when you're talking to aging

parents or dealing with that.

Okay.

That's not worth it anymore.

Okay.

There's only like, yes, there is no more conversations that can be had

of, you know, I sure would feel more loved and appreciated if you would

address me this way or whatever.

Right?

Yes.

And it's not their job to make us feel loved and appreciated as much as we'd

like to think that as their children, you know, there's no job description for it.

And so I, I think you'll, you mentally, if you're going back into sort of

protecting your inner wellness and your core and your existence and your

integrity is, you've had to almost get to a point where that is, that is

how she would ask me this question.

There'd be no other way.

There was no other email that was ever gonna come to you about this from her.

No.

Correct.

Right.

And so where, how did you make that mental transition from reading an email

like that and saying, I'm gonna respond and say, I really wish you would've said

it this way, and asked about my son, and asked about me and et cetera, et cetera,

to responding the way that you did.

I think probably the greatest gift that we can give to our parents

is to meet them where they are.

And Bene Brown also has this concept of, of do you believe that

people are doing the best they can?

And I believe that that email is the best that she can do.

And so even though I don't like it, the best I can do is

to respond in my integrity and say, July works better for me.

Well, I think that's beautiful and I want to thank you for sharing that.

And I want to have you back on the podcast circa July or September and you're gonna

have to tell me all about, she's at the party about what actually happened.

I wanna know exactly what happened.

I wanna know what was said and not said.

If she responds by email, you have to send it to me immediately because people are

gonna be wondering like what happened.

Right.

This is true.

This is true.

Well, I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for sharing.