This episode is dedicated to our virtual expedition to find an approach to Leadership that resonates with women. But as opposed to being focused on the women taking part expedition we speak to some of the women around the expedition. supporting the journey in different ways.

DEEPALI KHANNA, Vice President, The Rockefeller Foundation who has been instrumental in bringing the 24 women together.

THEO SOWA, Writer/Human Right Activist/ Consultant/ Television presenter who has been a Guide on the Expedition, speaking to and supporting members.

MARIANNE SCHNALL, Journalist/Interviewer/Author, Forbes Contributor who wrote an incredible article about the Expedition for Forbes.

STEPHANIE KHURANA, Managing Partner and Chief Operating Officer, Draper Richards Kaplan Foundation & Faculty Dean Emeritus, Cabot House; Social Impact Fellowship Fund Judge, Harvard Innovation Labs, Harvard University who has the role of the 'Enabler' on the Expedition.

[00:00:32] We'll be successful so that women the world over will be able to say if that's leadership, I'm in.

[00:01:06] We're gonna start first with Deepali. Deepali, who runs Rockefeller in India, the Rockefeller Foundation in India, and it was her that made it possible for us to, to book, to, to, to meet together in February, 2023 at Bellagio in, um, Lake Como in Italy, that extraordinary palace owned by the Rockefeller Foundation. A place of peace where extraordinary wisdom has, has emerged from it over the years.

[00:02:07] When we started off on the expedition in May, 2022, Deepali spoke on the podcast and wished us good luck in our exploring. Here's just a, a small clip from that.

[00:03:21] Julia: Deepali, we felt your presence all the way through. Um, uh, you may not feel part of the journey, but we know that you are part of the journey in that you are pretty central to, to the journey, but thank you.

[00:04:06] They have taken the calls of members. They have played with the ideas of members. They've shared their experiences with an extraordinary generosity and they've answered members' questions with an honesty that has, that has enriched the expedition right the way through. You can find the full list of all the guides to the the Expedition if you go to the website, women emerging.org, that's Women emerging.org. You'll find little biographies of, of all of the guides for whether that's Ben or Hella, or Paula, or Sifa, Annie or Garvey, or Zaina, or Kelly or May or Sabrina, or Nandita, or Veronica or Hatoon, or Saba. And there are so many more who have been extraordinary supporters and guides to the members of the expedition.

[00:05:25] Theo, you spoke recently to Falawi.

[00:06:43] So yes, I'm looking forward to speaking with her more.

[00:06:50] Theo: Frankly, I think it's an issue everywhere. I actually think that a lot of the leadership work that people have spoken about in relation to women's leadership hasn't actually been, in my view, leadership. It's been more about management.

[00:08:15] Julia: And why is this a generational issue?

[00:09:07] Privilege is something that cuts across age, across... cuts across ethnicity, it cuts across geography. Um, and frankly, it cuts across politics as well.

[00:09:22] Theo: I mean, advantage within the societal systems within which we live.

[00:09:37] Theo: Privilege is different to discrimination. You can be discriminated against, um, and that's when I start looking at the, when I very much think about systems, because you were talking about very often about systems of discrimination. So you can be a woman and be discriminated against, but I think we all have to acknowledge that there are different circumstances in which women live, and there's some women who have far greater access to power, far greater access to decision making, far greater access to choice. And as I said, sometimes that comes simply from where you are born in this world and how you then fit into overarching economic systems. Sometimes it comes from working your way into a system that gives, then allows you greater access to choice and decision making and, and sometimes, you know, privilege finds its way to you through other methods.

[00:12:06] So from my personal point of view, yes, there are women who, who say, you have to be older before you are wiser. But I also know many, many, many more women who judge based on what you bring and what you offer.

[00:12:31] Theo: It actually, it was, it, it was a really fun conversation. Um, and it was really interesting and she, she's one of those people that all that makes me feel that we have so many great examples of women's leadership in so many different ways, and very often we don't acknowledge that. But I have a very strong feeling that she will definitely, well, she must already be acknowledged as a leader in her field and with the people that she's working with. But I've got a very strong feeling that she's going to be very, very widely recognized as an amazing woman leader and someone who walks her talk.

[00:13:36] That's info@womenemerging.org. Send me an email, tell me about yourself, and let's, let's do a Zoom and see if we can make it work. So next. After Deepali and Theo is Marianne, who's a columnist for Forbes, who recently wrote that wonderful article that we've all been celebrating about the expedition. I asked her to share the insights that she's got from writing the article to, to picking up the ideas of the 24 Women on the Expedition, and I also actually asked her to read out some one or two of the pieces that the expedition members had written to her as part of her research.

[00:14:25] Marianne: You know, the most difficult part about it was that there was so much great content and, um, it prompted so many different thoughts in my head that I easily could have written a book from... inspired by it and then has, um, but so I wouldn't call it, it, it was difficult in a happy, difficult way in the sense that there was just, uh, so much to offer in, um, what I learned from it and, and what, you know, these women shared, um, which, you know, obviously inspired by this incredible idea you've had to put together this expedition.

[00:15:06] Marianne: First and foremost is the reason that, you know, part of the reason that inspired this in the first place, which is that if we, if, if we do, um, you know, identify absolutely this need to have more women in leadership, the idea is not just to do leadership the way that it has been modeled, um, before us in some dysfunctional, um, you know, somewhat, you know, hierarchical, patriarchal ways, but to, for, for, to really, for women to bring um, their authentic visions, their authentic, you know, voices, um, the, the values that, um, they also bring rather than thinking that they had to, um, just, you know, sort of copy, um, ways that aren't authentic to them, which are a, as as we learned, um, you know, through some of these answers, have been preventing women from seeing themselves as leaders. I mean, they're, so I think that I saw that. Um, I also saw the need, um, which I know that, um, is part of that conversation that we need, you know, there are certain attributes or values that are deemed, um, you know, in our culture we deem them as, as quote feminine. And actually they've been sort of denigrated in many ways. I don't wanna like affirm strict binaries because there's masculine and feminine and all these attributes in, in all genders. Um, but, um, some of the more quote, feminine attributes like, you know, caring, compassion, empathy, consensus building, you know, listening, um, you know, collaboration. All of these things that are obviously so needed in our world right now that aren't typically thought of. You know, leadership in is sometimes thought of as you're being strong and you're, it's hierarchal and it's power over. Well, women, you know, again, without making generalizations, often sometimes see it as, you know, this sort of more power to power with lifting up the collective rather than just power for powers sake.

[00:18:33] What I like about what you're doing in bringing all these different perspectives together from so many different languages and um, perspectives from all over the world, is let's come up with our own shared language. Let's learn from each other. Because, you know, I think that it's really important to be exposed to all of these different, you know, lenses and ways of talking about it so that we can kind of redefine it rather than getting stuck in, um, old language that really, you know, no longer serves, serves us, or this whole conversation.

[00:19:08] Julia: Give me some examples.

[00:20:03] And then this next thing that she said also is something that I've often thought about. It was good to hear someone say it out loud. Where is my critique of how women could also appropriate and misuse power? That critique is not lost on me. But to give into that critique would also mean that we fail to question the authority of a narrow definition of leadership that has dominated the world thus far. Isn't it time we imagine at least half of all world leaders being women, leading the world in a way that resonates with women?

[00:20:56] So, another one that I found myself thinking about a lot was, um, from Ruba, um, who said, Many women, especially women of color in the south, women like me and Arab women wearing hijab, a mother of two working with vulnerable communities, feel left out from approaches to leadership that center the white male. Today more than ever with the problems in our societies and communities worldwide, and the crisis in leadership that was highlighted, especially after Covid, we need to rethink existing leadership models to make sure they are more inclusive and representative of all components of society. And I think the thing that I was thinking about with that was that, you know, leadership looks even more different from a global lens where, you know, I mean, cuz you know, when you, you know, first for maybe like a, a white woman like me, you know, in the western world it's almost can become like subliminal, this is just sort of like how it is. But it's even more probably pronounced when, you know, sort of the like, epitome of leadership in a global perspective is maybe, you know, a white male from the western world when you're exactly as she's saying, a, a woman of color in, in the, in the south, an Arab woman wearing hijab, you know, working with vulnerable communities. I just felt like it's even more pronounced than obvious how left out that they are.

[00:22:22] Marianne: Hmm. Very good point. Absolutely. And then, uh, this one from, um, Izata also articulated something that I find, you know interesting, that I think about a lot.

[00:22:58] It's therefore imperative that we source, harness, and emphasize leadership that is multifaceted, which focuses on non-linear impact, which prioritizes diversity and inclusion and which transcends borders. And in addition to that, just being, you know, obviously, you know, so many truths. I was thinking about how, you know, as unfortunate and concerning as climate change is, it's such a potent example for us all to like truly get that we're global.

[00:23:47] So, um, I thought that that was just very powerful. There was this also from Melissa. Leadership must unleash the talents of us all, not just the few. We need leaders who can do this, not through command, but by believing as mothers do, in the best in everyone's. And committing to seeing that giftedness expressed. We frankly need more humble, caring, and serving leaders who lead not from brute strength, but from weakness, unleashing the generative gift of mutuality and wholeness.

[00:25:23] So I, you know, and then she says, being involved in this expedition, I'm now going to celebrate and share more of my whole self and all of the brilliant leadership skills I've developed because of being a mother and not despite it. Hopefully by doing this, I can encourage other women who are both mothers and leaders to do the same.

[00:25:57] Julia: but, but you know, the other thing is that people are worried about using the word mothering cuz it's too soft and it's too gentle. Now I dunno what you are like, but I hope I'm sometimes soft and gentle. I'm also absolutely ruthless and brutal and if anybody threatens my children ,God.

[00:26:24] Marianne: Yes.

[00:26:26] Marianne: Absolutely. That's a good point. It's, you know, it's, I sometimes talk about myself as like also being like a mother bear, but, you know, but also absolutely. You know, I think that we have to bring both those, that's a very important distinction.

[00:26:50] Julia: Marianne, I get the impression you enjoyed speaking to the 24 women .

[00:27:11] And it was also something that had been, um, If you don't mind me using this word, feels appropriate, midwifed through the process of the expedition and through you, um, and your leadership in allowing them to be able to share their stories and get used to that and to really probe deeply, so by the time they were sharing these responses, they were so thought through.

[00:27:48] Julia: Thank you so, so much Marianne. And thank you for the article. Uh, this is the first major article about the Expedition and it's been in Forbes and we're very, very proud and delighted and grateful to Marianne and of course also to Aparna and Isata and Ruba and Katrina for, for writing and volunteering their thoughts uh, for Marianne's piece at this key point in the expedition, when we're about two thirds of the way through.

[00:28:39] You'll find the Forbes article there. And you'll also find the sort of full, um, contribution, the written contributions of the 24 members. They're glorious things to read. So we've spoken to Deepali um, as we were setting off. We've talked to Theo about guiding us through the journey. We've talked to Marianne about the snapshot she took of the expedition when we were two-thirds of the way through.

[00:29:46] Um, I interviewed Lissa on episode four of the podcast, no, episode five of the podcast. So if you, if you wanna hear a whole episode on the subject of disrupting and um, Lissa's thoughts, they are fantastic. This is just a quick word from Stephanie, who is the enabler who has, um, come on the journey with us, seen me certainly through some moments of stumbling and some moments of extraordinary insight. She's, um, I, I thought I'd ask her. She's a busy lady, you know why she has, um, been the enabler, why she volunteered to be the enabler on the expedition and, and, and where she thinks we've got to so far.

[00:30:51] Stephanie: This expedition, um, is different because, you know it started from this vantage point of asking what's leadership that resonates with women? And for me, that broke frame for this idea that leadership has been defined historically by men, men leaders, men thinkers, because that's how things were.

[00:32:02] Julia: And different ages too.

[00:32:14] Julia: I mean, the group is diverse and everybody loves the fact that it's diverse, but what do you think the diversity actually adds to the expedition?

[00:32:51] And I think for a lot of people the ambiguity is hard cause we wanna know where we're going, we wanna know what the answer is, and it's not gonna be something familiar. And so the diversity makes us really comfortable with the unfamiliar and new ways of thinking.

[00:33:11] Stephanie: I'm not sure what I've enabled, but I love the word .

[00:33:43] Stephanie: Well, I think, um, I think the group has, uh, I, I, I think your, first of all, your leadership, it's hard to lead when you're studying the leadership, so you're kind of a, you know, but, um, really keeping the, um, the mindsets open for as long as possible to resist the temptation of trying to find the answer. I think that that energy and that openness is gonna create a lot of power in Bellagio because people are just ripe to say, okay, what do we think? What do we mean and how can we express ourselves in a way that's distinctive and different because we, I think we know we're onto something, but until you start putting words to it and start having it take shape, you don't know. And I think there's a lot of energy that's ready to do that. And I think that, um, you know, as things start getting categorized or bucketed or defined, then all of a sudden, you know, you, you, you start seeing something and then can keep molding it.

[00:35:26] Julia: So there you have it. The expedition has been a huge undertaking. There's been so many women involved in making it possible at base camp. In the dark, guiding in their recording, in their cheering from the sides in, in loving us on our way. Thank you to all and to everyone. Just a last thought. Remember that we do do every three weeks a live, an expedition live session, and that's where I and one of the members of the expedition pick up your questions, capture your thoughts on the, on the subjects that we cover in the podcast, or your curiosity of, no, no doubt about where the expedition is and where it's going to and how it's getting there. The next live is on the 9th of December at 10:00 AM UK time. That's 9th of December at 10:00 AM UK time.

[00:37:02] And many of you I know who are listening to the this episode are also part of the gang of women who have supported us. Thank you so, so much. Lots of love.

[00:37:29] We love all of the messages you send us. Keep them coming.