Shownotes
The Hidden Power of Jazz: "Jazz music, I think it's important to say, (Jazz) has a significant number of benefits, neurologically, physiologically, even passive listening."
A Tribe For Jazz is a nonprofit organization founded with a mission to preserve and advance jazz through visual storytelling, performances, education, and community engagement. Founded three years ago, with an anniversary approaching in April 2025, the organization has already left a notable mark in the jazz community.
Stephanie Matthews' Journey and Role
Stephanie Matthews, the executive director of A Tribe For Jazz, shares her personal journey and the roots of her passion for jazz. Growing up surrounded by jazz music, influenced by her family, and learning the trumpet out of admiration for Louis Armstrong, Stephanie's connection to jazz runs deep. She joined the organization bringing her expertise in visual storytelling, which has become a crucial part of their mission.
Visual Storytelling and Achievements
One of the standout achievements of A Tribe For Jazz is the creation of "Legacy Jon Irabagon, A Solo Tenor Odyssey" a cinematic performance film showcased at film festivals worldwide. This project exemplifies the organization's innovative approach to preserving jazz in a visual and immersive way.
Additionally, the organization hosts the Combs International Jazz Series, featuring top-tier national and international jazz musicians, in partnership with CCAD and Columbus Dance Theatre.
Educational and Community Initiatives
Stephanie emphasizes the organization's commitment to education and community engagement. They use jazz as a tool in educational contexts such as STEM and social-emotional learning. By forming dynamic partnerships, A Tribe For Jazz provides young children, especially from marginalized communities, with opportunities to think differently and develop essential skills like collaboration, adaptability, resilience, and improvisation.
Jazz as a Way of Thinking
Stephanie Matthews elaborates on how jazz is more than just music for her organization; it's a way of thinking and collaborating, similar to interactions in a jazz ensemble. She shares insights on how jazz fosters inclusivity, access, dialogue, and listening, making it applicable beyond the realm of art. However, she has faced skepticism from those who see jazz only as an art form and not as a broader concept with scientific connections.
Neuroscience and Music’s Influence
Stephanie articulates jazz's influence on the brain. She mentions how music, especially jazz, can evoke geometric patterns, mathematical equations, and colors, signifying its complexity and relation to science. Eric recommends a talk by Pat Metheny at a neuroscience conference, illustrating how music can be detected in nonmusical sounds, further emphasizing music's pervasive presence in our lives.
The Challenge of Thinking Over Judging
Eric discusses the notion that judgment is easy and thinking is hard, particularly in businesses and educational institutions. He encourages analytical individuals like engineers or accountants to explore and utilize different parts of their brain to enhance their existing processes.
JazzLab and Creative Processes
Stephanie sheds light on the JazzLab approach, where a catalyst idea is built upon with inputs from others, allowing room for evolution and feedback.
Adapting to Change and Embracing Possibilities
Eric and Stephanie discuss the inevitability of change and how jazz can be used as a metaphor to navigate it. Stephanie introduces "jazz thinking," a method in development focusing on relinquishing control and being open to possibilities rather than predetermined outcomes.
Music and Problem-Solving
Eric and Stephanie explore the idea of using creative approaches, like music, to solve societal and organizational issues, such as affordable housing. They suggest incorporating music into corporate retreats to inspire new solutions and improve problem-solving.
Key Moments
00:00 Discussing reasons for choosing jazz music.
05:16 Jazz captivates beyond famous names and personalities.
08:12 Stephanie loves the organization's focus on music.
11:40 Jazz enhances wellness, creativity, memory, and emotion.
14:12 Miles Davis influenced song's crucial early change.
18:50 Judgment is easy, thinking requires effortful understanding.
22:12 Jazz is music and a collaborative lifestyle.
23:22 You're talented at communicating in STEM education.
27:35 Creativity liberates non-artists; society emphasizes analytics.
30:58 Bring your organization for Columbus growth issues.
36:12 Promote collaboration, adaptability, interconnectedness through music.
37:48 Indictment looming, societal issues and reluctance.
43:52 People resist change, prefer control for happiness.
46:57 Digable Planets were ahead of their time.
48:38 Adjust to changes to minimize discomfort.
51:37 Nondualistic thinking can be valuable during crises.
Stephanie Matthews is the Executive Director of A Tribe for Jazz, a visionary 501(c)(3) nonprofit dedicated to preserving jazz's legacy and advancing its future through education, performance, and visual storytelling.
As an arts administrator, Stephanie harnesses jazz as a transformative tool to promote social and emotional learning, STEM integration, and emotional wellness. She created Jazz Lab™, an innovative program funded by the Battelle Central Ohio STEM Grant, that merges music and science. Jazz Lab™ engages underserved youth in innovative, hands-on experiences like virtual reality, 3D printed instrument assembly, and exploring the physics of sound, igniting creativity, collaboration, and curiosity in the next generation of learners.
Stephanie’s leadership also extends into award-winning film production. Notable projects include Legacy Jon Irabagon: A Solo Tenor Odyssey, a captivating celebration of jazz’s creative spontaneity, and Exploration, a documentary and workshop that blends jazz, mindfulness, and collaborative art to promote emotional wellness.
Grounded in her faith and an unwavering commitment to inclusion and educational equity, Stephanie has elevated A Tribe for Jazz into a globally recognized organization. Through her vision, the organization continues to redefine how jazz is experienced—bridging disciplines and inspiring, dynamic connections that honor the legacy and innovation of jazz.
Website: https://www.atribeforjazz.org
The article referencing South Dakota Mines
"Music and STEM combine to create perfect harmony"
https://hardrock.sdsmt.edu/magazine/music-and-stem-combine-to-create-perfect-harmony
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SEQ Development Report
The SEQ Development Report is an innovative tool that combines emotional intelligence with one's spiritual life, distinct from religious contexts. The report helps individuals understand their connections with themselves, others, and their surroundings. It aims to identify areas in their lives that may need improvement and highlight their strengths, ultimately facilitating better navigation through life. To obtain the report, individuals need to contact Spirit of EQ via email at info@spiritofeq.com and complete an online assessment that takes about 15 to 20 minutes. After the assessment, a debrief session is required to review the comprehensive information provided in the report. Spirit of EQ also offers further coaching to support individuals in their personal development journey.
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Transcripts
Stephanie Matthews, welcome to the podcast.
Stephanie Matthews [:Hi, Eric. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Eric Pennington [:Oh my gosh. I have, I've been waiting and wanting to do this, like, forever. Life events, as you are aware, that kind of conspired against us. But here we are. It's December 2024, and we're gonna get it done. So A Tribe For Jazz and for our audience, all that information about A Tribe For Jazz is in the show notes. I wanna start there. Can you maybe tell the audience what is a tribe for jazz?
Stephanie Matthews [:So we're a 501c3 nonprofit.
Eric Pennington [:Okay. Okay.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yep. We're 3 years old.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:Our anniversary will be in April 25 or before then.
Eric Pennington [:Okay.
Stephanie Matthews [:The mission is to preserve the legacy and advance the future of jazz. We do that a number of ways through visual storytelling, live and virtual performances, education and community engagement. And so how those kind of break out is the visual storytelling aspect is, like, the cinematic performance film we did when we first launched called Legacy Johnorapagon.
Eric Pennington [:Okay.
Stephanie Matthews [:And, you know, and that you know, we send that to, like, film festivals, and it toured all around the world. And and so we're we're very interested in, you know, creativity in that way, storytelling.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:The performances is, are like our Combs International, jazz series.
Eric Pennington [:Was that that was in the summertime primarily?
Stephanie Matthews [:It started in April, which is Jazz Appreciation Month and actually ran through October.
Eric Pennington [:Okay. Got it.
Stephanie Matthews [:And this year, we were really blessed to bring in 15, really high level, incredible national and international jazz musicians, high level improvisers, quartets and trios, and it was just it was really dynamic. And And that was a partnership we did with, CCAD
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:As well as Columbus Dance Theatre. And, you know, we like to move jazz around to different locations and bring it to different people.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:And then on the education side, how can we use jazz as a catalyst jazz music as a catalyst to impact education, STEM or social emotional learning.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm. And we
Stephanie Matthews [:have a number of programs in that space as well as and then finally, community engagement. And that's all the partnerships that we do. You know, we have wonderful, wonderful partners. And, I'm not gonna even name everybody, but they're they're pretty dynamic and I think high level for an organization like ours that's 3 years old.
Eric Pennington [:Well, I'll say for our audience, and it'll be sort of a to hit your memory. I was invited to a tabletop I call it a tabletop discussion, but I think it was called dynamic dialogues or something. Right? And it was this thing about EQ and AI. I think that was the
Stephanie Matthews [:That was the one.
Eric Pennington [:The subject. Right? Mhmm. And, a friend in common had, like, sent me a note on LinkedIn and said, I think this is right up your alley. So the EQ thing, yeah, okay. Because, you know, we get those requests and blah blah blah. But then I go, I tried for jazz. Oh my gosh. Yes.
Eric Pennington [:I'll be there. Right? Yeah. And that just fascinated me. So I I'm gonna use that as a lead in, Stephanie. Some out there may say, why'd you pick jazz? Why why not why not Latin music or rock music or I I have some selfish reasons why I think the show is jazz, but I'm gonna I I told you before we started recording, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be very gentle that way. But Sure. Why jazz? What is it about jazz?
Stephanie Matthews [:So, you know, I was brought into the organization
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:As their executive director. And I when I, joined, I actually brought the visual storytelling component to the mission. We we've changed it
Eric Pennington [:at that point
Stephanie Matthews [:and really started to build out what a tribe for jazz is.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:The the president and founder, Bruce, is, heavy jazz man like yourself.
Eric Pennington [:Okay.
Stephanie Matthews [:And his interest was in presenting musicians that the Columbus market did not normally get. It's outside of the standard songbook. It's outside outside of, the smooth jazz that might happen during, oh gosh, Jazz Rib Fest.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Right. Right.
Stephanie Matthews [:It's just a completely different sound.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:Now I'd always been a fan of jazz, you know, growing up in my grandmother's house, mom, and Yeah. My mom's house, dad's house. And and I played a trumpet. And I picked up the trumpet because of my love for Louis Armstrong. And then my brother picked up the trumpet for his love also. And, you know, I took that through, like, senior high school, but senior in high school.
Eric Pennington [:But Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:So we've always had jazz in our blood.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:So for me, coming on board the organization was kind of a no brainer. And I really like the idea that we were gonna be doing some outside of the box type of thinking things and programming. Bruce, the founder, he's one of those swing for the fences guys.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:And and I'm down with that because that's exactly how I move. You know? So we think of ourselves even though we're, you know, a jazz nonprofit, we think of ourselves as very agile. Mhmm. We think of ourselves as innovators and, very forward thinking and, different from what the market has to offer.
Eric Pennington [:Well, I would definitely say you're different. And I say that with the greatest compliment because when I tell people about, and I have been, you know, it's this hey. I gotta tell you about this organization called A Tribe For Jazz. Immediately, I get the what what what is what is that?
Stephanie Matthews [:It's a great name. Right?
Eric Pennington [:I know. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's definitely it pulls you in and and makes you wanna learn more. In the selfish side of me goes what what I love about the mission is that there's so much to jazz that I think it goes beyond when people hear the famous names. Right? Louis Armstrong. Our audience knows Miles Davis is from my lips as Jeff laughs. Right? We we we connotate so much of it that way. But I I haven't told you this, Stephanie.
Eric Pennington [:I was I think it was on that was it was in August. We were on vacation, and I get the the, your your emails, you know, announcing things. And there was this artist, and and I don't remember her name. I think she was a pianist. And I I typically will click on them and but for some reason, I say, you know, I'm I just wanna hear what her. Mhmm. And I'm listening to her, and I'm going, oh my gosh. Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:And I'm scrambling, and I'm going, sorry, dude. You're in Seattle. You ain't gonna make that show. But, oh my goodness. And I never heard of her. I mean, and and I would imagine she probably has a following and all. But so the the fact that you guys are willing to not, sort of balance it on we need famous and the notoriety
Stephanie Matthews [:That part. Right?
Eric Pennington [:You know what I mean?
Stephanie Matthews [:No. Absolutely. And I think you're talking about, Miki Yamanaka. That name sound right? We had her here. It was in the summer.
Eric Pennington [:It was late it was late it was late summer. Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:Let's look at the calendar, but it sounds like that was probably Miki.
Eric Pennington [:She's a pianist. Yes. Okay. Well, then, yeah, that's gotta be her. Pianist. Yes. Yes. That is her.
Eric Pennington [:That is her.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yeah. And she is incredible. So the thing is, the artist the type of artist that we're, we focus on featuring are high level improvisers, very well respected in their field in in within jazz. They may not be the household names Yep. But they have, they do have a following.
Eric Pennington [:Within that community.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yes. Absolutely.
Eric Pennington [:And Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:These are the rising stars of jazz. That's the thing. They're the rising stars. You're gonna find them in, like, the downbeat poles.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:You're gonna find them in jazz. You're gonna find them, you know, in all those those places. Those names, they're gonna pop up. But, but they may not be, like, you know, the big
Eric Pennington [:big names. Yeah. And I and I know that's that that has to that's somewhat relative because, obviously, jazz is not as mainstream as, you know, Taylor Swift and fill in the blank. And, actually, a part of me goes, I'm glad because Mhmm. I I think oftentimes the commercialism of music has really, really tainted its value, again, my opinion. So, Jeff, I'm gonna give you an opportunity because I got a ton here for you,
Eric Pennington [:Stephanie. No. I I the more I hear about your organization, the the more I I love it because I totally agree that the idea of music in in developing especially young people Mhmm. Is so misunderstood and not emphasized enough. Because it Eric and I have talked about this before. It does so many things to people's brains and and gives them something that's creative, And I'm just really happy about that. I you know, like I said before, I'm I'm not the jazz person that Eric is. I'm more rock, but that's just who I am.
Eric Pennington [:And I follow 2, young lead 2 groups that are all young ladies. Mhmm. Linda the Linda Lindas and The Warning. And I love the idea of what they're doing. The the Linda Lindas aren't out of high school yet. Wow. Just but the idea that that they've been encouraged, and I see that what you're doing is the same thing, and it just makes me very happy to, to see things like that going on. I guess Well,
Eric Pennington [:if young people, in my mind, can escape, maybe is the word, or or be careful with this obsession with celebrity and fame and fortune Mhmm. And allow music to do what it can do. Right? And and I'll draw a conclusion, from personal life. There was an interview with Bill Evans, the famous jazz pianist. Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:Oh, my love.
Eric Pennington [:Oh my gosh. And they were asking him about why is why why did he leave space between notes? You know, how he would play a note and and it would hold.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:And he said because it's the anticipation of what could come next. Mhmm. Right? Mhmm. Personal life, counselor says to my wife and I and you know about this part of my personal life, the difficulty that this subject matter. But he said, be careful with trying to fill up every space with words. Maybe think about using less and let the space have its moment.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yes.
Eric Pennington [:And you know what, Stephanie? I'm gone. I think maybe he and Bill Evans could have had a conversation about what music and in this case, jazz Mhmm. Can have an impact on life because not every kid, Jeff Wright, is gonna be in a band that's gonna go on to record and will tour and on and on and on. But if they can understand, you should be in this band because it's going to impact how you live life. That's where it gets really powerful, at least in my head. Right? I want us to use that same point and go into the the societal problems that we we face.
Stephanie Matthews [:Absolutely.
Eric Pennington [:Go ahead.
Stephanie Matthews [:Hold that thought because I wanna I wanna comment on something that Jeff was saying. So you had mentioned about the the benefits of jazz music. And jazz music, I I think it's important to say, has a significant number of benefits, neurologically, physiologically, even passive listening. You know? People don't think about it from the research aspect. And this is one of the things that we're trying to draw out
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:In our work is we're making these connections to, you know, different areas of, you know, different sectors.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:And so, I mean, people don't think, you know, oh, I'm gonna use jazz for, like, you know, social emotional wellness or emotional wellness. But you absolutely can because it can help, like, foster creativity and innovation. It can help unlock emotions. It can help reduce anxiety and blood pressure. It can help trigger memories for people who are, you know, in the, who may have dementia and and struggle with areas like that. And, maybe we'll talk about that a little bit later some more. But but I'm just saying that I mean, that's the other thing too. Kids don't even know the the value of just passively listening to it.
Stephanie Matthews [:It's activating neurons. Well, I I
Eric Pennington [:don't know if I like the term passively, and I like actively listening to it.
Stephanie Matthews [:Okay. But I'm saying I I agree with you. I agree with you. But what I'm saying is is if somebody has it on the background while they're doing homework That. Yeah. I'm saying it's just on or if you're in a cafe and there's jazz music playing, you're getting the benefits and you don't even know it.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:And that's what I mean about the passive listening. I also prefer active listening because then you can embody the music more.
Eric Pennington [:But you
Stephanie Matthews [:know what? Understand it.
Eric Pennington [:But you know what?
Stephanie Matthews [:Let it soak in and let it wash through you. So
Eric Pennington [:Stephanie, the the first book I wrote was heavily influenced by listening passively to sketches of Spain.
Stephanie Matthews [:Really?
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. I mean, I wasn't actively listening. Mhmm. But what I would do is I would put it on because there was something in that that would just get my creativity flowing so I could get into my flow.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yes.
Eric Pennington [:I wouldn't have been able to tell you, oh, yeah. That's, Blues for Pablo, and he's playing with no. I I was just I put it on because I wanted it to act and it's still to this day. If I wanna do really focused work Mhmm. That's the type of music that I'll go to because
Stephanie Matthews [:You can go.
Eric Pennington [:Of that activation piece.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yep.
Eric Pennington [:And, Jeff, to to your point, active listening, absolutely. It was
Eric Pennington [:it was funny because you mentioned the the one piano player that left space. I just relistened to The Dark Side of the Moon. They leave lots of holes in their in that album. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:I'm sorry. Everybody out there knows how much I love Miles Davis. So this is not gonna be a shock when I go there. The keyboardist, Richard Wright Mhmm. And for our audience, if we've butchered his name, don't hold it against us. We'll get it right in the show notes. However, I was watching a video, and he was talking about the song Breathe. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:And what part of that song was taken from was a Miles Davis cut off of Kinda Blue. Mhmm. And he goes through this process, Stephanie, and and Jeff of of where he goes, well, I could have done this and have this, but then I decided after listening to that, I would include this. And you hear the song and you go, that little change that he made was everything. It wouldn't be the same song without that, and it was right in the beginning. Just just like prompting so many of these things. And so So good. It come back out of my rabbit hole.
Eric Pennington [:So the active listening, obviously, really, really important
Stephanie Matthews [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:Powerful. But I also think to your point, the idea of using it as a passive tool to foster more creativity, I'm a an example that it yes. You are very right on that. Yeah. Very right on that. Alright. So all of us have got problems personally, and also we got problems collectively. Your organization is also trying to bring this sort of mindset of what we've been talking about to those things too, right, from a community perspective.
Eric Pennington [:Can you talk a little bit about that?
Stephanie Matthews [:Go again. Give me tell me more. Tell me more.
Eric Pennington [:Alright. So I and I'm I may be I may be missing this, but, I I wanna say I I've I've seen some things from you guys that you've participated in that Well My gosh. I can go back to the the dynamic dialogue. Mhmm. Alright. I guess I'm seeing this thread even if it's not some obvious red thread that stands out, but it seems to be weaving throughout these different things. Right? Because I know in that that that discussion, we talked about a lot of really powerful things, and there were some rigorous debate. Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:It's worse. Right? There was. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:But you know what I thought was very powerful is that after it was over, nobody walked out of there, like, thinking I never wanna sit with that person again. I don't like how they see the world, and I'm I'm out of here. It seemed to be like, wow. Let's do this again.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yes. Right? Yes.
Eric Pennington [:So I guess that's where I'm going with this, Stephanie. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's
Stephanie Matthews [:not included. That's, no, that's very much who we are as an organization. You know? I wanted to put us in the thought leadership space, and that's what led to the collaboration the partnership with Dennis and Edge, and the dynamic dialogues came out of that.
Eric Pennington [:Yep.
Stephanie Matthews [:Which actually was the result of a big table conversation that we did
Eric Pennington [:The Columbus Foundation.
Stephanie Matthews [:With yes. Yes. Yep. During that whole thing. So no. You're spot on. You're spot on. We're interested in in how can jazz, the structure of it, the processes, the Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:The the transformative experience of listening to it, the just all of it. How can that, like, bring us together? I think that's what you're reading in you know, when you see our website. We're Yeah. It's just really about community building.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:And we're just making our way around, you know, kind of like going into this space, moving into this space. You know? And we're making these really interesting connections. You know, on the surface, you know, what does A Tribe For Jazz and Dennison Edge have to do with one another? Well, you know, for me, I'm looking at it, and I'm like, well, we're both interested in innovation. We're we're both both organizations are interested in story and and and, you know, community. So, of course, there's a tie there. Go ahead.
Eric Pennington [:No. I I was just gonna ask, we put a lot of emphasis on the intellectual, the analytical side of things. Right? Solving problems through Mhmm. Here's the problem. Here's let's develop a solution to fix it. Right? And and that's that's good. Mhmm. But I also think that there's an emotional component too Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:That contains mystery, and it it it because, again, I'll go back to the dynamic dialogues discussion. I'm sure if my memory is serving me well, there were times when there was something that was said that made me uncomfortable. Mhmm. And, Jeff, past shows, there's this thing about curiosity that helps us navigate uncomfortableness. Right? Mhmm. I guess in my mind is that sort of navigating that is not an analytical expedition. It's an emotional one. Right? Yes.
Eric Pennington [:It it's kind of that, I'm feeling this. What's the message that I'm getting from that? What's the message about me being uncomfortable with what Stephanie said was her opinion of AI versus EQ versus me rushing to judgment Mhmm. And saying, you said something I didn't like, so therefore, I don't like you, and then I'm done. I shut down. Right? And we were talking about this before we were recording, is this idea that, Young had that thinking is hard, therefore, that's why judgment is so easy. Right? Mhmm. Because when we judge, I can I can end it quickly, and I can get on to the next thing? If I have to think, then I gotta go, well, what would what's Stephanie's perspective that would make her think that way? Where did she come from? What what did she struggle with? What did she triumph in? And could that be a I need to ask more. I need to understand more before I make a judgment that says, I disagree or whatever.
Eric Pennington [:Do you know how scary it is to think sometimes?
Eric Pennington [:Keep going with that, Jeff. What makes it scary?
Eric Pennington [:Because, like you said, if if I think about our relationship
Eric Pennington [:I'm
Eric Pennington [:just this is just an example. And I get I I actually start thinking about it. It can get scary because I may have to like you if I didn't like you before. Right.
Eric Pennington [:Is that implying that change? I may have to confront.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. I I may have to I may have to change me
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:Instead of making you fit what I want you to be. Mhmm. And I I think that's important to think of it from that way too because you you said judgment is easy, thinking is hard, but I think there's the scary part of it is what makes it the hard part, the hard thing to do.
Eric Pennington [:Do you do you encounter that?
Eric Pennington [:What, Mark?
Eric Pennington [:The the the the thinking is hard and judgment is easy. Yeah. I mean and I'm saying that in light of your your audience, meaning the businesses that you approach for support, the the the education, centers and all of that.
Stephanie Matthews [:That's good. I wanna make sure I I'm hearing you right. Okay. Alright. So Yeah. Ask it again. Ask that part again.
Eric Pennington [:Alright. So if judgment is easy and thinking is hard, here, that's where I'm going. I mean, because I wonder maybe you haven't. I and I I obviously as I've looked at your organization over, you know, time, it's successful. You're getting traction with what you're trying to do. So there is some level of embrace. Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:But I gotta believe, Stephanie, there's some people when you say jazz and passive listening to create I don't like jazz. I don't like oh, my gosh.
Stephanie Matthews [:Okay. So bingo. So to that point
Eric Pennington [:Okay. Glad I could help.
Eric Pennington [:How did you do that?
Eric Pennington [:I I don't know. That's why I love jazz.
Stephanie Matthews [:And I'm gonna I'm gonna get to that. And I'm a circle back because that because that's it though. But this is here here's the thing that we do.
Eric Pennington [:Yep.
Stephanie Matthews [:Jazz for us okay. The foundation, the core of it, the catalyst is, of course, the music. But it's a way of thinking. It's a way of life. It can be a way of being. You know, we have a collaborative and open spirit. And and and and, if I could liken it back to that the Dynamic Dialogues conversation where you had mentioned, you know, surely there must have been a moment where I felt like, you know but we set the stage whenever we're doing something by letting it be an open dialogue, thinking about it in terms of how, like, quartets or trios or quintess, how they interact
Eric Pennington [:and
Stephanie Matthews [:collaborate and how they're communicating verbally and nonverbally. And so so so, obviously, like, there are organizations who are like, it doesn't make sense. It's it's jazz music, and here we are. We do this, this, and that. Whatever. I'm like, ah. But if you look at it, the structure of jazz, if you look at the community and the historicity of jazz and how it's inclusive and it's all about access, and it's about bringing people together and having these dialogues and listening, leaving that space. Right? We fit anywhere.
Stephanie Matthews [:Jazz fits everywhere.
Eric Pennington [:It's what convinces me why they have you doing what you're doing there because your your ability your your your ability, your talent of communicating things in that form. Yeah. That that definitely resonates. So when you, I'm I'm gonna kinda turn a little bit to the education space. You know, STEM is I think of it in terms of it's more the technology, the science, the the research, and that kind of thing. Have you encountered educators that say, well, let me get you with our band director or let me get with let me get you in our music department. Yes. The short answer.
Eric Pennington [:Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:The short answer is yes.
Eric Pennington [:Yep.
Stephanie Matthews [:And I I'm still working through how, I'm I'm I'm feeling about, you know, all of that. It's interesting. Okay. So sound, of course, is physics, which is science.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:Music is sound.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:You know, these things fit together and kind of getting people who are, like, really thinking, thinking people to kinda get that. I'm like, that's interesting. You still see how that you know? Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:But
Stephanie Matthews [:no. There's there are a lot of people who are like, you know, arts. The jazz it's just it's just arts, and I'm saying no. It's it's not. And they're they're I'm not alone in this. There are some people, and it's not a lot, but, you know, there are a number people and researchers and whatnot who were saying, no. No. No.
Stephanie Matthews [:No. No. No. No. No. No. No. You know, for me and I'm thinking about, oh, sketches of Spain and how it was, you know, impacting your brain and firing neurons.
Stephanie Matthews [:Mhmm. When I first started hearing some of these high level improvisers that we would be bringing into town, I'm talking about I'm seeing mathematical equations. I'm seeing geometric shapes. I'm seeing colors. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. There is so much more to this. This is science. This is absolutely Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:Science. And so, but, yeah, I'm I I think I think I'm pretty good at, making the argument in the case for how we can
Eric Pennington [:how we can do that. And it's also it's also, you guys have had some success. So I would imagine being able to bring along those, quote, case studies to reassure maybe that educator that maybe was either on the fence or had a certain level of skepticism. But the what you just put forth is is right. There is a, an interview. Really, it was a blend. He gave a talk and he and it was a panel discussion with Pat Matheny Mhmm. In this neuroscience conference.
Stephanie Matthews [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:And I highly recommend this. You can find it on YouTube. I typically just type in Pat Matheny neuroscience, and it comes up. Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:Yeah. Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:And he said some very fascinating things about this idea that it it is not just an art, right, as you put it. And he he even used this example, Stephanie, of you can hear music and things that are nonmusical. He said, if I take a trash can from the 4th floor of a building and just push it down the stairs Mhmm. If you really closely pay attention, you can hear you can hear the notes.
Stephanie Matthews [:The notes. Yeah. Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:I put that to the test, and he's right. I didn't do the trash can thing. But it it put me in a place of, like, I'm gonna listen to things that are, quote, nonmusical and see if I can pick up a rhythm or a melody Mhmm. Or or a repetition. Right?
Eric Pennington [:You you know that I'm a a motorhead. Yep. Next time you're stopped at a railroad crossing, listen to the diesel engine and listen for the music in
Stephanie Matthews [:that. The patterns.
Eric Pennington [:The patterns. And you can feel it because it's a big thing. But, yeah, there's there is there is music in anything you want music to be in.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm. And I think it it liberates even the non quote artist, the the the person that does not play an instrument, to be able to discover new solutions to things that they tap into. And I and, again, this is kind of my indictment of our society, and it's overemphasis on the analytical side of our brain. Once again, I mentioned a name associated a lot of times with Miles Davis, Gil Evans. Mhmm. He was the arranger on sketches of Spain. Right? Well, what not a lot of people realize that Gil Evans had a period of time later in his life, actually, not long before he died, where he was taking arrangements from Jimi Hendrix and putting them into a big band type of orchestral situation. Right? Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:I and you could say, well, yeah, that's because he's Gil Evans. But my point is that's a new pathway. Absolutely. And what discovery do we find when we go down a new pathway?
Stephanie Matthews [:Absolutely.
Eric Pennington [:And I think I'm gonna draw back to the societal thing and about how open are we Mhmm. To something different.
Stephanie Matthews [:So okay. I'm I wanna share a conversation that I had about a week ago. So there was an article that I found. I was up late one night and I'll send it to you so you all can put it in the
Eric Pennington [:Show notes.
Stephanie Matthews [:The show notes.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:And it was about this university, South Dakota Mines University, m I n e s. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:It was
Stephanie Matthews [:a mining university originally when it opened. It is a prestigious engineering university now. And, I mean, the people come out of there, go to, like, you know, DARPA and Garmin and Google. They go to all the you know, it's big. Yeah. So the article was about how this is an engineering college. Right? 25100 students. Okay.
Stephanie Matthews [:I should say STEM University. 25100 students. I wanna say a quarter of the school is in the music program. Music is not a major at the university, but they have music groups, ensembles, choir the whole bit because the engineers needed to express through the music so that they could further be creative on the innovation side. Can you imagine? They're not proficient musicians. Proficiency is not even the goal, but they need to experience, learn, and try to get as good as they can so that they they're using that as a tool to foster creator creativity in what it is that they're doing. Mind blown. Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:It keeps
Stephanie Matthews [:So I called the I called the the the the the head of the music department, and we got on a Zoom for, like, an hour. And it was like me and you. We sat down. I mean, we got on this Zoom call. I never met doctor Armstrong in my life, and we talked for an hour straight. Like, we've known each other for 20 years, and this is, like, boom. Boom. Boom.
Stephanie Matthews [:You know, all this is we were just firing. And the idea is, that's the kind of that's a new path. And I'm, like, yes.
Eric Pennington [:Could you imagine how sterile this will be without music?
Stephanie Matthews [:Without music? Yes.
Eric Pennington [:Yes. It would just be horrible. Horrible.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yeah. I agree. I agree.
Eric Pennington [:I almost think, Stephanie, and this may sound a little radical, but it almost it seems like your organization should be brought in whenever there's a tackling of an issue. And here's my point. As everybody knows, Columbus is exploding in its growth. Population, industry, fill in the blank, fill in the blank. And housing stock, affordable housing is constantly being talked about. It would seem to me that would be a good place to start to have a try for jazz, a seat at the table to sort of sort of till the ground and prepare the ground for the work necessary to come up with solutions. And, that's a plug, by the way. You should do that.
Eric Pennington [:I I I agree. I'm my mind
Stephanie Matthews [:is my brain is already yeah.
Eric Pennington [:Because all the things that we're talking about here, I mean, affordable housing is not a new problem for Columbus or any other city
Stephanie Matthews [:That's right.
Eric Pennington [:In the United States. Right? And, obviously, and you can tell this if you read the news or other, you know, social media or whatever, there's a level of frustration that, quote, unquote, we haven't solved the issue, or we're not moving it Mhmm. Close enough or doing more for that. In my mind, okay, if you what you have been doing has not been showing a breakthrough Mhmm. Maybe you need to do something different. Mhmm. And maybe jazz and, by extension, a Tribe For Jazz in Columbus, Ohio is to use that to help create something new, a new direction,
Eric Pennington [:a new idea. I just had a weird thought, but I think it's a good idea. We've all been in the corporate world, and we have retreats, don't we?
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:Team building retreats or this. Yep. What if it was just music? Maybe you're already doing that. I don't know.
Stephanie Matthews [:No. But tell me more. I like that idea.
Eric Pennington [:You you you go away and you you you have a goal. You have things. You have activities that you do to to do all this. You're all excited, then you go back to work on Monday after the retreat, and it's nothing's different. But what if you did what you're talking about during a a weekend retreat for the leaders of a company.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. I could see that. I could see that. I mean, I I have my I gotta be careful. Because I look over at our producer, and he I think he's reading my my mind right now. I know where you're going to. I think. But I'm gonna I'm gonna hold my fire, Jeff.
Eric Pennington [:I I think that's a great idea. No doubt in my mind. Because, again, if if if any entity, organization, or whatever is trying to solve a problem or trying to find especially if it's one that has not they haven't got the kind of traction that they desire, why not? Mhmm. Why not pull you guys in and say, how could we even if, again, if it's just to open the doors up. Yep. Because, Stephanie, I I I think about if I did not have that music playing, that Sketches of Spain Mhmm. Could I have still written the book? Of course. I don't think it would have been as good.
Eric Pennington [:I don't think it would have tapped into what I wanted to say. Mhmm. Right? Mhmm. The focus work the focus work now that maybe doesn't have anything to do with a a, you know, a book, but has something to do with having to get something accomplished Mhmm. And out to the world. Mhmm. Could I have done it without music? Just done it in silence? Of course, you could. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:But that's like saying it's good enough. You know? Like, well, you know, it it could be word. I mean, all that kind of language. Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:Right.
Eric Pennington [:So I I guess I'm kinda back to this this problem solving idea. What is when you when you go into whether it's education or nonprofit or corporate and, again, I don't know how much you're doing with corporate, but are there certain types of problems that they feel like they're trying to solve that they say, okay. This is what we're having an issue with, or or is that the approach?
Stephanie Matthews [:So I I'm gonna use well, let's go into education. I'm gonna use that as
Eric Pennington [:an example
Stephanie Matthews [:in our jazz lab program. So all I knew is that I wanted very much to present opportunities to young children to think differently.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:Okay. So I'm holding that close, this this idea of we know that a number of young children, especially those who may be from historically marginalized and underserved communities who may not have access to STEM or other programming or just these other opportunities that other kids are fortunate to have, they need an infusion of something different
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:To shake them up, to get them to see the patterns and interconnectivity in life, and to think differently. And so that's that's, like, our approach, I think, in anywhere we're going to anywhere we're going to. And and so that's it's about the music, and I'm gonna lose my train of thought. It's about the music, but it's also about how musicians and jazz scenarios work together. And when you can strip all of that apart, you can come up with a certain set of, not not rules or parameters, but ideas of how you might interact to to to get the most out of someone, out of a team member, out of I'm talking about from an organizational corporation standpoint. And and these are these are skills that, like, everyone, regardless of age, needs to continue to foster. How to be a better collaborator, how to be how to more cohesion, how to be more authentically connected to other people, how to be adaptable, how to be an improviser, how to be more resilient. You know, All of that, you can get that from the richness of this art form, not only by the listening, but by thinking about how it it it's it's such an abstract idea, and I'm still working through how to explain it.
Eric Pennington [:But you know what? But
Stephanie Matthews [:it's there's so much there when you pull apart
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. The
Stephanie Matthews [:processes from the music. It's just really it's a rich space, and that's what we're just interested in exploring.
Eric Pennington [:Well and and this is the part, warning my indictment is coming. That really drives me crazy about our society in the United States. Right? When we hear about things that are abstract Mhmm. You know, reluctance. You know? I don't know if I can I don't know if I wanna go there? But if I said to that same person, I'm gonna put you in the seat, the driver's seat of a BMW M5, and I want you just to drive it around the freeway system for a half hour. I bet you'll cut out of that car and you'll go, oh my gosh. That was unbelievable. And if my next question for you is, well, tell me how does that engine operate? You can't tell me.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm. But you knew it felt wonderful. Mhmm. I I I love how it handled. I and and when I did a turn, I didn't feel like I was gonna it also you would be describing it in terms of the motion and how you felt and how it made you feel. You're not coming away going, well, let me tell you about a 6 cylinder versus an 8 cylinder and oil compressors used and no. You're not.
Eric Pennington [:I would, but I
Eric Pennington [:know. I know. Well, for those My
Stephanie Matthews [:dad was the same way.
Eric Pennington [:He wouldn't do. Yeah. But in the end, and I think Jeff would even agree even being a motor head, there is something about the feel of the experience.
Eric Pennington [:You you put all the even knowing all the technical stuff, when you put it together, that's where the abstract part comes in. The way it's the way it's doing what it's supposed to do.
Eric Pennington [:And, Jeff, going back to jazz, that was one of the things that a lot of these modal jazz players is that we're gonna prepare and we're gonna be as mastery over our instrument, and then we're gonna let it happen. Mhmm. Right? And I've used this analogy, Stephanie, with clients most of the time with individual clients. Is that in the beginning, practicing emotional intelligence. Right? The the the the on purpose intentional practice of it will feel very clunky. Mhmm. It will feel like you're walking upstairs backwards. You and you're not gonna like it.
Eric Pennington [:There's gonna be the brain's gonna resist the whole 9 yards. But I said and I use him. I said, do do you're familiar with the quarterback, Joe Burrow, Cincinnati Bengals. Right? Would you say he's a he he's a top quarterback? Most people say, yes. He's one of the best in the league. Well, I bet you anything, you could take it back to when he first picked up the football. It was clunky. It was, okay, dad.
Eric Pennington [:What do I do when this happens? And then as footwork and then the gym and then the lifting of weights. But, eventually, Joe Burrow got to a point, and this was not all physical talent, he could get to the line of scrimmage and in split second nature, I know what I need to do because I know what they're showing me. Let's go. It's a it's a rinse and repeat thing, but he's prepared. He's practiced. That's right. But when in the moment, there's not a, well, it's a football, and I've gotta count to 3 and say hike. And once I say hike, I lift my right arm back.
Eric Pennington [:No. Right?
Eric Pennington [:If if you wanna see a group of people doing what you're talking about, have you heard of the Isle of Man time trials, TT?
Eric Pennington [:No. I've heard of that, but I I don't know much about it.
Eric Pennington [:It's the Isle of Man off the coast of England. Every year has these motorcycle races on a 25, 30 mile course.
Stephanie Matthews [:Oh my god. Is that the one that, like, for years, they lost, like Well,
Eric Pennington [:they still do everything.
Stephanie Matthews [:They still lose people. Okay. Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:Watch those guys. They're taking this technical marvel of a motorcycle Mhmm. But it's artistry with what they're doing. Yeah. 200 miles an hour going around a corner with they don't have guardrails and soft things to hit.
Eric Pennington [:It's incredible. Yeah. And I and I know this has been I mean, Malcolm Gladwell. Right? The he's most famous for the idea. I don't think he came up with it, but this idea of 10000 hours to mastery. Mhmm. You know, if you do something for 10000 hours, you'll get your mastery. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:I think, yes, it is probably that, but I also think it's your brain's fabulous ability to build new neural pathways. And as you continue to practice it and continue to do it, you it becomes effortless. Mhmm. I also know and for our audience that Stephanie is a photographer extraordinaire, and I believe
Stephanie Matthews [:I can't believe
Eric Pennington [:you told me that. I'm sorry.
Stephanie Matthews [:I'm sorry.
Eric Pennington [:Done that. But I I gotta believe I gotta I if I'm not my memory serves, that's where you kinda got your start. That's what you were focused in on was photography. Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:For 20 years.
Eric Pennington [:Okay.
Stephanie Matthews [:Been a photographer
Eric Pennington [:and creative director. Right? Yeah. Okay. So correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're called to do a photoshoot, I gotta believe it's somewhat effort effortless. I know you prepared. I know that you you you you you explained what we're gonna do and how we're gonna do it and where we're gonna do it. But when it begins to shoot, you get into your mode. There's a rhythm.
Eric Pennington [:There's a rhythm. Right? And for those out there who are the analytical I mean, if you're an engineer or if you're an accountant, and I don't say that as a blanket statement, but if you're someone that has really gone, I haven't really explored that. All I'm advocating here is why don't you be open to another part of your brain Mhmm. To maybe what you're make what you're doing now even better, if that makes sense. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:That makes perfect sense.
Stephanie Matthews [:No. It does.
Eric Pennington [:So, Stephanie, change. I don't know if anyone that likes it, because we all kinda like things to go as we want them to go. I kinda joked with a friend, not too long ago. I said, you know, if we're really honest, I just want everybody to do what I want them to do, when I want them to do it, and how I want it done. If we could just if we could just get that, then I'd be happy.
Eric Pennington [:Right? I I think the same thing.
Eric Pennington [:Right? And for us, the 2 of us, there's Stephanie and there's Brett and there's a 1000000 people. That's what we really want. But the reality is sometimes life comes and knocks on the door and says, what you knew before is no longer going to be.
Stephanie Matthews [:That's right.
Eric Pennington [:Do you find that whether again, it's not just jazz, the art form. It could be jazz, the science. Can it help with navigating change? Do you think that?
Stephanie Matthews [:100%. 100%. So, like, going back to this idea of how, like, I try to live my life
Eric Pennington [:Right.
Stephanie Matthews [:And with and I have not finalized my thoughts around what jazz thinking is. Okay? I have not. I'm not ready to, like, go there today.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:But, I think there's a method.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:I think there's a method. If you allow yourself to see, I'm I'm I'm gonna I don't wanna, like, say that you all are controlling, but there's a level of control that you like to have. Right?
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. Okay. Oh, certainly.
Stephanie Matthews [:And everyone does over Yeah. For certain things. I work more towards relinquishing it. Oh. I'm interested in, possibilities, not, I'm interested in possibilities, not, things that are foregone. Because I I wanna I don't know. That's I mean, that's just the way I I approach a lot of things. You know what I mean? I'm like, okay.
Eric Pennington [:And and this is in light of I would imagine and and then what you think, some people have a a greater ease of that than others. Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:A risk tolerance. I think
Eric Pennington [:Thank you. Yes. That.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So I'll I'll I'll put it into an example. So with, our JazzLab program, there was, a thought that was that catalyst. Right? And I just started building off of there and then finding thought partners and getting all the inputs. And I'm constantly seeking inputs, but moving while, you know, seeking all the inputs.
Stephanie Matthews [:But I leave a lot of room for a project or a product or a program or whatever it is to tell us what it is. And let the forces kind of like, you know, you need the people to tell you what it is. You know, you need whatever those that feedback and input is, and and just even timing. Because sometimes there's a you you know, there are great ideas that have manifested in the world. The timing was all wrong.
Eric Pennington [:Yep.
Stephanie Matthews [:There are and I love this because there are there are musicians and albums that were ahead of their time. I think about diggable planets. When Digable Plan do you know who Digable Digable Planets is? Oh my god. So this would have been like okay. I'll send you some some references. But anyway, when they dropped, they were an incredibly different type of music for that particular time frame. This was in the nineties. And, but I argue that they were ahead of their time.
Stephanie Matthews [:They kind of, like, you know,
Eric Pennington [:went
Stephanie Matthews [:a little bit more in obscurity. Or you can just any any
Eric Pennington [:Oh, so many examples.
Stephanie Matthews [:You know, so many examples of that Yeah. Ahead of their time. You know? So I don't even know where I was going with that. But yeah.
Eric Pennington [:No. That's good. And I I guess what I'm thinking about going back to change and about looking for possibilities and things like that and I know, again, everybody has that different level of of risk tolerance. Right? However, I would say that anyone, find something of that Mhmm. And then ploy that into how you operate daily. Mhmm. Because the interesting thing for me would change, and and 2024 has been that year. Right? When I locked into fighting what was coming my way, I found that I kept moving backwards.
Stephanie Matthews [:Backwards, of course.
Eric Pennington [:I and and and the more that I fought to it's the more I'm moving backwards. Mhmm. This was kind of the art for me about this idea. Well, why don't you just let go? Stop fighting the current. Stop fighting Mhmm. The tides. Stop fighting the wind. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:Why don't you why don't you adjust your position so that you can go with that? And I truly understand, Stephanie. I get it. When that change is something that turns everything upside down, you should feel like this sucks. I'd you should feel I don't like it. Never would rob anyone from feeling that. We're talking about what are we going to do after we have acknowledged that I feel that way. When we at least for me, when I was fighting for control, how can I position things so that's not gonna be as painful? How can I do things so that maybe this won't happen? Is that, again, I'm moving backwards.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:That's kinda where I'm going with it. And my my hope for people, right, is that they have these tools available to them that can actually help them. And if we can separate this idea between no one says you have to like the situation. No one says you have to like your boss. No one says you have to like the company. No one says you have to like the neighborhood, the city. That's okay. You can not like it.
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm. But what we're again talking about is how do you navigate? Because if it's moving you backwards Mhmm. You got problems.
Stephanie Matthews [:I think there are multiple ways. Mhmm. I love your example of surrendering.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah.
Stephanie Matthews [:Surrender to it.
Eric Pennington [:Yep.
Stephanie Matthews [:We didn't talk about this at all really into this, like, this last minute, you know, and I know we're about to wrap up. But, yeah, I'm a very spiritual person, so that resonates
Eric Pennington [:Mhmm.
Stephanie Matthews [:A lot with me. But what also resonates too is this idea of the push through the sludge, the pushing through, knowing you're not alone. But the pushing through is a shaping type of, I don't know, there's something.
Eric Pennington [:Because you were
Stephanie Matthews [:as you were saying that, I was like I was like, oh, no. But there's something so interesting about the the deep, whatever that is, and that that step heavy step one after another of pushing through. Again, for me, from a spiritual standpoint, I mean, I that's it it's hard, but there's a transformation that's happening through that too. I think multiple tools for different situations, personalities. Yep. But I I wanna offer that as well.
Eric Pennington [:That's that's great. And, again Get down into the wind Yeah. Type of Yeah. I totally get that.
Stephanie Matthews [:Push through. There's something and I'm I'm a very visual person, so I think about when I see it in movies. You know? Like, you see that maybe, like, the the film, like, like, dog sleds and they're out there in the snow and they're facing the cold and they're bracing and that that, you know, and you're pushing through. There's something really powerful about that that imagery Well and that yeah.
Eric Pennington [:Yeah. You're you're you're really spot on. And this is why I think and, Jeff, we've talked about it on the show before, this idea of nondualistic thinking can be so valuable because to your point, Stephanie, I, and you know this because we know each other outside of a podcast interview. You know, my son was in a very serious car accident a couple months ago. And I remember after I don't remember how many surgeries he had had, but this was one of the bigger ones. And we're sitting in the ICU, and I'm I'm looking at him. And, obviously, he's in a lot of pain and all of that comes with that. And, you know, in those moments when you're going, I I wanna say something, but I don't know what to say.
Eric Pennington [:I don't know if I should you know, you're kinda debating having that debate in your head. And I just it you know, I think it was a god thing that said, just let him know that you don't know. And I said to him, I can't imagine how much pain you're in right now and how hard this is. But I do know that progress compounds like money. Thank you, Bill Ackman, wherever you may be. Progress compounds like money. It increases over time. And when you're talking about the pushing through Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:And the head into the wind, the sleigh, I I liken it to that. It's like we just have to go another quarter of a mile. Yeah. And then we'll take a break. And then we're gonna go another quarter of a mile. Yep. And then we're gonna go another quarter.
Stephanie Matthews [:You're gonna be crying.
Eric Pennington [:Well, that's okay. Crying is a lot here on this podcast. Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:But that's it.
Eric Pennington [:Right? Yeah. Because And you go one step further. Yeah. We just we just one more. One more. Yeah. So if if today you did 3, okay, tomorrow let's try to do 4. Mhmm.
Eric Pennington [:And then when we do 4, we'll do we can move to 5. Mhmm. I have found in this time that doing that has also increased my surrender. Oh, that's good. Right?
Stephanie Matthews [:And It's so
Eric Pennington [:and, obviously, we're talking about the deep and the and the valley type stuff. Yep. But this also applies to the idea that Jeff has about this particular thing for the podcast. If we sit here, right, and think of it in terms of this giant thing that you just wanna do, we're gonna probably think. Yep. But if we can kinda pivot to, okay, Jeff. What could we do this week? Well, I could call this person and you could reach out to that person, and then maybe when we get with Brett, we can okay. Great.
Eric Pennington [:That's good. I think far too often in our culture, there's this, how do we get to the mountain top? How do we get to the mountain top? How do
Stephanie Matthews [:So much of that. Right? So much of that.
Eric Pennington [:And we forget. Mhmm. Sorry. That's not reality.
Stephanie Matthews [:Yeah. Yeah.
Eric Pennington [:It may sound great on social media.
Eric Pennington [:It may look great on social media, but that's not how. You know, we've talked about this before going on a motorcycle trip. Destination is not important. Right. It's the getting there. Right. Stephanie,
Eric Pennington [:thank you for joining us.
Stephanie Matthews [:Oh my gosh. This was wonderful.
Eric Pennington [:We We
Stephanie Matthews [:could've kept going. That
Eric Pennington [:was wonderful. And we will because It
Stephanie Matthews [:was really good.
Eric Pennington [:See, that's the only thing we don't tell guests is that if you think this is the last time I'll be reaching out. This is really wonderful. Yeah. It is. And and we really appreciate it. And audience, we, we we're so glad that you tuned in as well, and we look forward to the next time that we're together. Take care.
