Culture strategist and leadership coach Jenni Catron takes a hard look at “clout killers”, and talks about exchanging fear for truth, comparison vs jealousy, combating a scarcity mentality, the duality of insecurity and pride, and how control means putting power over influence.

Jenni Catron has a knack and a love and a passion for

putting feet to vision, as she says, and making vision reality.

She has had this book, and I've known about it for several

months, called Clout, discover and unleash your God given

influence. So without further ado, please help me welcome the

one and only miss Jenni Catron, Jenni, thanks so much for being

with us.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to

share a little bit more about the book. Thank you so much.

This is awesome.

You know, why did you write this book? Like, where did

the idea come from? How did you get started?

Yeah, yeah. You know, I've always been a

leadership junkie. Like, I don't know that even as a kid, I knew

how to what the word was, but I knew what leadership looked

like, and it was something that I was really drawn to. So, you

know, so I think just my whole life, I've kind of aspired to

understanding leadership and what helps leaders tick, and,

you know, how we influence others, and what that looks

like. And so this book, clout really is, is a lot of my heart

kind of in written form of like the things that I wished I had

known as a leader earlier on that so maybe that I wouldn't

have misstepped, you know, in some certain ways along the way

and clout, discover and unleash your God. Given influence is

just that idea that leadership begins with influence. You know,

I think John Maxwell is quoted with saying, leadership is

influence, nothing more, nothing less. And I'll often push back

on that a little bit to go. I think leadership starts with

influence, but how we steward that influence impacts what how

we're able to really live out our leadership. So, you know? So

this was, to me, was, well, what is the core of influence look

like? So if leadership starts with influence, what does it

mean to really develop that influence, develop that clout,

if you will, that gives us the platform to lead from. And so

this was kind of a journey for me of saying, You know what, I

see a lot of things in my life that are holding me back or

hindering me, tripping me up from really being the leader I

should be. And you know, we talk about those in the book, I call

them the clout killers, but then also going, okay, so what do we

do with that? Like, how do we really cultivate our influence?

How do we cultivate our clout in such a way that we can allow

that sphere of influence that we've been given to impact

others, to really allow that to thrive and for that to shine? So

that's the heart and the spirit behind the book.

And the seven clout killers, as you call them, are

really transformational, and they're very real, and they're

things that leaders don't even like to admit, that they

struggle with.

Yeah, yeah, I think you don't, and that's the

truth. And it's really the thing that stuck out with all of the

clout killers, for me, is, you know, what are the things that I

don't want to admit are there? But we all know that when we

just keep stuffing something we we really aren't dealing with

it. It's, it's, it's affecting us, whether we're recognizing it

or not. And so what I found is I was kind of doing my research

for the book, and, you know, my personal stories, stories from

my leadership, other leaders that I kind of studied, I

discovered that this fear issue was really almost kind of the

root. I call it the front runner of all the clout killers. It's

like fear triggers all these other things. So I fear that I'm

not enough. So I deal with jealousy if you're not having

enough. So I'm deal with scarcity. I fear that I'm not

good enough. So I live with insecurity. Like you see how

just these fear, this fear of different things, impacts our

influence and our our leadership in different ways. So it's

really the when I boiled down like anything, like I'm maybe

not engaging, there's usually some fear behind it, like, I

fear chaos, so I grapple for control. And I think a lot of us

as leaders, you know, we like to kind of get a good handle on our

situations, and like to be able to control our world. And

really, that's the fear of chaos, you know. So just so many

of these different issues, there's just kind of an

underlying fear all the time of, Am I enough, you know, and and I

think when we kind of just are willing to acknowledge that,

then we position ourselves to be able to grow from it and learn

from it. You know, fear kind of impacts you in different ways.

Sometimes it causes us to hide, sometimes it causes us to

isolate ourselves and kind of close ourselves off, and then

sometimes it just paralyzes us, which, I think for a lot of us

as leaders, it just paralyzes us, you know, I think you've got

to exchange that fear for what's true, you know? And I think

there's a, there's an old quote, I don't know that I actually

used it in the book, but you know, what's the, what's the

stat of how, how many of the fears we we have actually don't

happen, right? Like you, we've all heard of that. Of you know,

how many fears that we have actually don't happen. And the

thing that struck up, stuck out to me when I was studying this

and actually looking at some scripture for just biblical

foundation for this, was that, you know, I think a lot of times

we want to, we want to believe that we just are going to

overcome fear and. We're never going to face fear. And over and

over in Scripture, like when the biblical characters would face

fear, God would he would say, Do not fear. But he didn't say, Do

not fear because being fearful is stupid. He said, Do not fear

because he had a response for this. He had a way he was going

to handle this, that he was there. He was the great reward

I'm with you. Like over and over, when a leader was dealing

with fear, God was responding with how he was there to help

lead them through that. And so I think you know, when we're

confronting fear, so if you're a person to say, you know, there's

a lot of biblical truth that we can kind of hold on to, to

suggest that God is with us through this. And you know, even

if you're not a person of faith, there's still truth behind

things that sometimes we allow those fears to convince us of.

You know, we kind of just spin off into all the worst case

scenarios. And when you stop and you go, Okay, what's the worst

thing that's going to happen? What's the real truth of if the

worst thing happened? What's What does that mean? So it's

kind of that idea of exchanging that fear for just what's true,

just getting rational for a minute. Because what does fear

do? It makes us irrational. You know, most of the time.

So now the next one is a comparison. And this one, I

think, is so acute. Why is it a clout killer?

Yeah, you know. And I think comparison, it's

almost natural, you know, like we are kind of wired to just

compare everything from the time we're born like our we, you

know, we are. We get the Growth Percentile chart, things you

know that tell us how we're stacking up to the rest of, you

know, kids in our age group. And I think our culture just

conditions us to compare ourselves to everyone else. But

the danger in that is that, and this is kind of the spirit of

this whole book. The danger in that is that I believe that God

has given us, like, this unique sphere of influence, this unique

set of gifts, talents, experiences and opportunities

that no one else has your specific like, mix of those

things, right? And so when we compare, you know, I'm not ever

going to be you. I'm not ever going to be able to lead the way

you lead to, you know, encourage people the way you encourage

people to inspire people like I'm not wired exactly like you.

We might have some things that overlap. We have a lot of things

that we enjoy, but if I try to be you, that I'm going to

sabotage the thing that makes me me. And so, you know, I think

that comparison thing, I think we're just so naturally wired by

society to give into it, that we don't even realize that we're

doing it. And what, what I feel like we do on that is we miss

really cultivating and developing the the influence we

have. You know, in trying to mimic somebody else, we actually

sabotage our own growth.

What's the difference between comparison and jealousy?

Because those two kind of seem to maybe dovetail or be related.

Yeah they do kind of dovetail. And I think, you

know, comparison is I can look at what somebody else is doing,

and I can, like, try to be that jealousy, like it, like it gets

to that icky place where I, you know, now I'm like, I'm really,

like, striving and working towards, you know, being jealous

or envious of what somebody else is doing. So it really kind of

makes it about trying to almost sabotage the other person. Like

jealousy kind of takes that nasty twist of, you know, I say

it's kind of like a cancer that eats, eats away at everything

that's good in our relationship. So jealousy takes that to Okay,

now you're my enemy, because I'm jealous of what you've

accomplished. Now it's not that I've just compared myself and

I've tried to mimic you now. It's that, oh, you're now my

enemy, because I want to be like you, and I see where our gaps

are different, and so I'm going to start being jealous of that,

and it's going to start eroding the relationship component. You

start that comparison, and then it turns into and I, at one

point, I talk about jealousy is kind of the irrational fear of

losing something or someone valuable to you, you know. So

it's that all of a sudden it becomes a competition, you know,

and it becomes and that's where fear kind of mixes into the

whole equation. And, yeah, jealousy just goes to kind of

that ugly place of, now you're my enemy rather than somebody

I'm celebrating because of you stewarding your God given

influence.

So scarcity is the fourth one?

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, this was one of

the ones that kind of snuck up on me and surprised me as a

leader. And I think, you know, I grew up kind of in a, you know,

just, uh, you know, lower middle class family. So we had, you

know, we struggled to make ends meet some days, you know, sure.

And but in that there were some good things that I learned in

just, you know, being frugal and making sure I manage my money

well. And, you know, so there were certainly some really good

principles that came from that. But what it did is it taught me

to kind of hoard a little bit more than normal, and not just

resources. It kind of, you know, it just was this overarching

tendency to just be scarce with everything, because there's kind

of this underlying fear that there's not enough, you know. So

when you grow up, and so a lot of us, I think, come by that

scarcity mentality honestly, you know, maybe so I didn't I grew

up in a home that didn't have just a lot of resources. So I

can be scarce with resources, but maybe somebody grew up in a

home where there wasn't a lot of love given. Our show. And so

you, you, you, you don't even realize it, because it's just

the culture you came from. But you can hoard, you know, just a

affirmation and really loving and serving others well. And so

I think, you know, we have to kind of look at that and go, is

there a place in my leadership where I have a tendency to

hoard? So another one where I think this shows up a lot is,

you know, if you're a leader in your position for influence, you

know, are you taking all of those opportunities for the

spotlight, or, you know, to bring the idea to the table and

or are you, you know, really empowering other staff to be the

ones to share that or to bring that up, or to to get the

spotlight, or, you know, so I think that's where you see it

happen a lot in leadership, is that we're not quick to give the

praise or the the attention to other leaders around us.

And the next one is insecurity. And these are

definitely connected.

Yeah, you know. And this is the one that none of

us want to admit, right? It's there, and it's, you know, that

it, and I describe it as a perpetual lack of confidence,

you know. And I think we can all relate to that. But the problem

is, when we kind of live in that perpetual lack of confidence, it

is impacting everyone else around us. And so, you know, I

think you've got to be willing to identify that and realize

where insecurity is kind of holding you back from living

out, you know, living out your influence in a healthy in a

healthy way. It's a biggie, and it can show up a lot of

different ways, you know. And I think we cover it up in a lot of

ways.

So pride, pride is the sixth. So we've got fear,

comparison, jealousy, scarcity, insecurity. And I know that

pride is often a sign of people who are covering up something

else.

Yep. In the book talking about pride, you know,

the like the Webster's definition is in inordinate self

esteem, or excessive confidence in oneself. And when I started

to unpack this and look at other leaders and myself, and you

know, see where pride shows up, it's really the illusion of

excessive self esteem, you know. So that goes back to that

insecurity piece of that. You know, as leaders, rarely are we

just really that prideful. We're actually lacking some self

esteem, and so we're trying to project that we have something

that we don't actually have. So it's kind of like pride and

insecurity end up this big ball of mess where prides trying to

cover up, it just all becomes one big jumbled mess that we're

trying to untangle.

That's huge. Well, the last one is control.

That's a funny one, because as leaders, we're,

we're so driven, right? And, you know, we have such a drive that

kind of pushes us and we and we step into, you know, moments

where leadership is necessary. So we are kind of known for

being the ones to take control when control is me, you know,

when that's necessary. But there's kind of a dark side to

it, where, when it's, you know, there's a lot of conversations

about the importance of servant leadership, and that as leaders,

we have to recognize that it's our job to help others shine.

And so when you see control creeping in, it's when you're

really longing for power, rather than like longing for influence.

And I think that's a real distinction that's important in

that, you know, this longing for power is an indicator that we're

not content with the influence we're given. So if we're trying

to, you know, manufacture control of a situation I often

talk about like the idea of, you know, we've been given this

influence, our leadership, our clout, and it's kind of placed

in our hands as this thing we're responsible to, kind of care,

take, to steward. But I'm one of those people who loves control.

So what do I do? I kind of curl my fingers around it, and I kind

of put a death grip on it and try to manipulate and control

everything, you know, and what happens? You're squeezing the

life out of it rather than letting it grow and develop. And

so I think we have to look for that tension in ourself as

leaders. Is, when am I, you know, being responsible for the

influence I have and I'm gently, kind of blood, guiding it and

directing it, or when am I trying to, like, manipulate it

and control it? And I mean, you're going to be the best Gage

for yourself on when you're doing those things and when it's

it's moving to control rather than influence, if that makes

sense. But there's a real dance there, because as leaders, we do

need to step up and actually lead. But that can cross the

line into, you know, controlling, obsessive control

if we're not careful.

Wow. Well, Jenni Catron, folks, you can check her out.

Jennicatron.com, Jenni, thank you for being with us. Thank you

for your wisdom. Thank you for what you do as a leader. And we

wish you all the best.

Thank you so much. It was wonderful to talk this

through with you, and I appreciate the conversation.

Thank you.