Church leadership challenges seem to multiply daily in today's uncertain ministry landscape. Declining attendance, budget shortfalls, aging facilities, and disengaged members can create an endless stream of problems that feel urgent to fix. But what if all the energy spent on fixing is actually getting in the way of what God wants to do? In this special Q&A episode, Pivot Podcast hosts Terri Elton, Dwight Zscheile, and Alicia Granholm address some pressing church leadership challenges facing pastors and ministry leaders today, offering a radically different approach rooted in biblical wisdom.

Rather than providing quick fixes or new programs, the hosts explore how to shift from a fixing mindset to one of listening and discernment. They discuss why encounters with the living God matter more than perfect programming, how to distinguish between institutional decline and the necessary dying that leads to resurrection, and practical ways to move toward collaborative ministry models. Whether you're wrestling with questions about preaching authority, lay leadership development, or simply feeling overwhelmed by church leadership challenges, this conversation offers hope and wisdom for navigating faithful ministry in changing times.

Hello everyone. Welcome to this Q &A episode of the Pivot Podcast, where we explore how the Church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Terri Elton, and today I'm here joined with our co-hosts Alicia Granholm and Dwight Zscheile

So on the Pivot podcast, we discuss what we believe are four key pivots that God is calling many churches to make in the 21st century. There are pivot in posture, from primarily focusing on fixing institutional problems to a posture of listening and discerning and experimenting around where God is leading. A pivot in focus from membership to discipleship. A pivot in structure from one size or shape fits all models of ministry to a mixed ecology.

of inherited and new firms working together. And finally, a pivot in leadership from predominantly clergy-led lay-supported ministry to lay-led clergy-supported ministry.

And over the past few months, we've heard from so many of you with questions about how these pivots actually work in real life ministry situations. You've shared your funding struggles, questions about authority and decision making, challenges in building community and hopes for faithful innovation.

So

instead of interviewing guests, the three of us are going to sit down here and directly address some of the themes and questions that have come up through the emails and through the social media comments and different conversations. We want this to kind of feel like we're sitting around the table with you, working through some of these challenges with you together.

So, Terry and I were at the Lilly Endowment Pathways for Tomorrow grant conference recently, where we heard from various sources that we are really in a moment of transition for the church and in educating leaders for ministry today. I know this might be stating the obvious, but it's really not just here or there, but it is all around us happening everywhere right now. So for me,

This really begs the question about what leadership competencies and posture church leaders need to embody today in these very uncertain times.

So I think it's, of course, not just a moment of transition in the church, but in the broader society and world in all kinds of crazy ways. And so I keep going back into the biblical narrative and thinking about that basic lesson that is interwoven all the way through the Old and New Testaments around how hard it is for God's people to learn to trust in God and to be led.

I think that's a theme. Yeah.

This is such a basic theme and so many ways in which throughout that story, humans try to secure their own well-being, flourishing future and all those things. And ⁓ I think that this is a moment in which we're coming out of a long period in the life of the North American church, the Western church, where we had high confidence in our ability to secure our own future. Institutionally, organizationally, we had the right

know, program technique, leader, all of those things in a culture that in some way supported Christian affiliation and practice and all of that. And as that unravels, I think that the opportunity is to actually lean into these biblical practices of learning how to trust God above all and obey God's voice in the midst of so many other, quite frankly, idolatrous voices that are surrounding us in our

and not only in the world, but also sometimes in the church, which continue to promise some kind of quick fix or help us to think that maybe we can go on our own.

Yeah, I think about stories that I heard both at the conference and the week before that we had students here on campus and listening to their discernment stories and how God has been moving in their life and the ability to sit down when we set the table and share those stories and what happens when moments of uncertainty ⁓

have like aha moments or breakthroughs and they're really like, God was in the midst of this. So I had a student, ⁓ prominent businessman, could probably financially do better doing what he's doing until he retired, but has really felt the nudge to go into ministry. so, and he's in an area of the country where they can't get enough leaders, they're growing and he's been invited to consider being a Christian public leader in some form.

And so he started one class at a time and he's like, I think I'm supposed to keep going. This is like, like just the energy from one class to another. And, ⁓ and he said to me last week, ⁓ and I got the privilege to co-lead a funeral with this 93 year old faithful woman with the pastor that was there. And it was just a holy moment.

And I thought, there's an encounter with God that is a call into this new way of being church that's so messy and people don't get it and it doesn't fit the world standards and he doesn't fit a traditional student and all of the things. And yet it's really an encounter with the living God and the ability to be in the midst of that and say, I want more of this, whatever that is. And I think what is it for us

leaders that are used to doing the hard work and feeling like, yep, this is what God's plan is, and it's really our work that we're focused on, and letting that take a step aside from that to listen to where are these stories emerging and leaning into the spirit and doing more of that. That is so hard, but I think there are, boy, there's joy when you run into it.

You know, Terry, you and I were on a retreat with the faculties of Luther Seminary and Warburg Seminary a weeks ago and talking about the Lutheran confessions in today, right? Today's world. one of the things that struck me as you read through those documents from ⁓ that period of time, from the 16th century is, know, Martin Luther and the other reformers lived in a universe of cosmology in which God's action was unquestioned.

you know, they were afraid of God acting. You there was a fear of the Lord, right? And that is of course throughout scripture as well. But you know, in the society we live in in the West today, for many people that is not the case. And so I think your ⁓ language here around encounters is really important. So that if people have not experienced an encounter with the living God, then they're not gonna be able to take the journey of transformation. And I think sometimes

In some churches, what we do when we gather isn't really, if we're honest, all that much focused on cultivating those kinds of encounters. And I think some of the churches that are growing and thriving have a kind of focus on that or an expectation, I would say, around that, whether it be through worship that's passionate, whether it be through just ⁓ stories that are being shared around.

how is God showing up in your life? But there's an expectation. So I think that's an opportunity ⁓ for all churches to really key into if the culture forms people not to expect God to show up and interact with them. And part of what we need to learn in our society is to trust in God's agency and presence and leadership. How might we shape the gathered life of the community?

around that and not in ways they're emotionally manipulative or whatever, but really are, I think, passionate and connect deeply into those vulnerabilities and longings that we have.

So another question that emerged during that conference was an invitation to revisit and reflect on our theology of equipping church leaders, which isn't something we kind of always talk about. We kind of talk about how you're doing it, but not what's the theology. So if our practice comes from our beliefs and our theology is informed from our beliefs, then what is our theology of equipping church leaders? What do you guys think about that?

Well, so I think there's lots of rich resources that we can draw on to think about this. And of course, the most basic would be the New Testament vision for the body of Christ. You think about. Yeah, I am. I'm apologetically. So you think about 95 images ⁓ for the church in the New Testament, but body of Christ being one of the four primary ones. ⁓

Kind of

You know, sometimes I think when we talk about the pivot from clergy-led, lay-supported ministry to lay-led, clergy-supported ministry, I think we want to nuance that. What we're really talking about is a deeply collaborative vision for ministry. We are not saying that clergy shouldn't lead or have influence. What we're saying is that ministry can't be monopolized by clergy as kind of professionals doing it for everyone else if we actually want to get to

a more biblical vision like in Ephesians four kind of vision of equipping the saints for ministry and growth and growing up into the full measure of Christ. so I think clergy have a really important role and those of you who are clergy who are listening to this, you should hear that we really want to affirm how important theological and spiritual leadership is and forming people as disciples and equipping

the people entrusted to your care for their vocations and roles in the body of Christ according to their gifts, right? So if we have a gift-based and team-based collaborative vision for ministry where people are really leaning into the things they're called and gifted to do rather than feeling like they have to carry all the ministry for everyone else, I think that's a much more life-giving way to approach it.

when I can't help but wonder if there is an element of Jesus' model of discipleship that we have ⁓ maybe out of habit or just out of practice kind of left by the wayside. And what I mean by that is when we look at Jesus' life and ministry, especially his ministry years, you know, there's this element of inviting the disciples to follow him and learn from him, learn his practices, learn his ways.

be empowered by him, sent out by him, come back, report, how did things go? Like, let's process this, let's talk about this. And then Jesus leaves and sends the Holy Spirit and then sends them out, right, with the Great Commission. And we see Paul doing much of the same as well with his ministry wherein, you know, he's gonna equip and empower saints in various areas, but he doesn't stay.

It's not dependent on him. It's dependent on the Holy Spirit, yes. And there's just this ongoing cycle, if you will, of being equipped and sent, equipped and sent. And I can't help but wonder if we've kind of...

become perhaps like the Dead Sea in the sense of we come and gather, great, but there is very little sending of Jesus' disciples out today. It's not a regular practice of the church. I don't know when we left it behind, but I can't help but wonder if there's an invitation today of ⁓ re-imagining what it might look like for us to actually embody much more of a sending posture because I...

When I look at Jesus' ministry, like that's all I see ⁓ is how like we equip ⁓ disciples, but to like for something, not just the ongoing sitting, listening, know, learning, which is great. We would all say we're lifelong learners, ⁓ but unto something else, not just our own ends.

So my granddaughter just turned two. And I think I'm learning lessons from little ones. And she's just starting to have vocabulary. And ⁓ one of the books that she got was this Bible story book, this beautiful Bible story book. And hadn't seen it before. And it was sitting on the table. And she's like, Jesus, Jesus. So she wanted to go with me through the whole Bible, look for Jesus. And.

And so we're going through the stories and I'm talking with her. And I thought, at what point do we either invite all followers into telling the Jesus story, and at what point do we say, it's just for the professionals, right? And I think she, no one has told her not to be an evangelist. No one has told her not to invite people to sit down and read the Jesus story with her.

or to wonder what that is. And so I think for me as a Lutheran, the priesthood of all believers and the ⁓ theological understanding of vocation that all of us have this calling, right, to be in the world and to be part of God's mission on this earth of sharing this beautiful good news, I think is for all of us, right? And I think ⁓ to integrate it,

into all ages and in really contextual ways that make sense is part of the gift I think that we have.

You know, another theme that keeps coming up from our listeners is questions about authority, particularly the authority of the preacher and the role of scripture in preaching and in leadership decisions. We're hearing lots of questions like, if we're moving away from clergy led models of the church, then what happens to the role of preaching and teaching?

Well, it's essential for the church to flourish. So I think it's really important, I think as we understand this, ⁓ this shift from a kind of more clergy focused or dominated understanding of ministry, it doesn't mean that the ministry of proclamation of the gospel of the word and the body of Christ should be diminished. So I was at a Synod Assembly last month and got to meet a wonderful

lay leader who is a synodically authorized minister. So he's a lay person who's been raised up to preach in a series of rural congregations in his context. he sells John Deere equipment for his day job and a really great guy. And he was just telling stories about when he goes into these rural farming communities and he says, you know, sometimes the seminary trained pastors come in and they're super intellectual and the people sit there and kind of scratch their heads. And then I go in there and I...

I tell some story about I mend an offense and then I connect it to the scripture and they're nodding and they're engaging with me. you know, so, you know, so I think there's, you know, just as an example of someone who, who I think is actually effectively preaching the word in his context and who needs, you know, of course he's needed to be trained to do that in an ongoing way as well. Like we all, we all are, and he doesn't necessarily need to be ordained or, you know,

kind of go through the traditional seminary path to do that. So I think we need to understand expansively the gift of proclamation in the body of Christ and then make sure that those who are preaching and proclaiming the word are well equipped to do so. Even if that might not mean everyone's gonna become a professional clergy person and go through an MDiv and all of those things. So some of you listening or watching this may

have responsibility in your region to mentor and equip some of those lay preachers in your very congregation. And that's really sacred work to do, and really important work. We Faithlead here have been trying to create resources that are available on demand for people wherever they are at a low fee to grow in their biblical and theological knowledge and in their preaching capacity. So I think it's important for us to affirm the...

the value and the depth of the need for good preaching, particularly in a moment when the church's crisis is in part because it isn't clear on its story in many cases and ⁓ doesn't necessarily have an identity and an alternative to what the culture is offering. ⁓ so all the more reason for us to dig into what is the gospel.

How are we clear about that? And let's not confuse it with the false gospels or half gospels that we see in our society at this moment.

I think of two parts of what was in that question for me. One is I think the authority of preaching doesn't come from the preacher, just saying. I think we're called to preach, and I'm for equipping because bad preaching can have bad consequences. But I think for me, theologically, the proclamation is ⁓

in proclamation, we put the good news of the gospel out into the world and God is loose and God does what God does. The spirit is in those gatherings and is present. And ⁓ there are more than once when I have preached what I think is just not my best sermon and somebody said, something that you said today hit me where I needed to be. And I'm like, that is not me, right? And I think so in that, I wanna be reminded of

the Spirit's work in the proclamation of the gospel. The other thing that I heard is, I think we also live in a time right now when people don't naturally see the scripture as authoritative or having ⁓ any preference over something else, right? And so what does that mean for us that might hold it with some authority? Well, again, the Spirit does with the scripture what it does.

And so sometimes I want to then go, I wanna like convince them that it has authority. And I think I have been invited to back off and to say, well, let's see what says in scripture and what might be going on here. And to take a more curious posture and let scripture live in a community and with people and in a conversation. And again,

It doesn't have to be neat and tidy. Let it speak into the moment, into a person's life, into a wondering and plant a seed for what might be happening or wondering in that person's life or in that community's life. And so I want to give a little bit of a shout out to the spirit and a little less to us having to know where's the authority or even think we ⁓ can convince somebody.

of the authority of Scripture if that's just not where they're at.

Yeah, mean, the word of God creates faith and through the spirit. And I think we're also in a moment where ⁓ we can't assume people understand necessarily the context for a scripture or a past. So we need to help people kind of live into and understand that story. Because it is the true story of the world, right? Of God's actions in the world, right? And we have so many other stories that are competing, so.

Well, so another set of questions that we've received recently has these questions have a kind of undercurrent of grief and maybe over loss of members or financial stability, cultural influence, maybe familiar patterns that once sustained ministry, a certain kind of energy that used to animate a congregation. And so we've had some questions related to this, like what's the difference between decline or failure and the necessary dying for new life. That's part of the death and resurrection story of the gospel itself.

what biblical stories of disruption and new beginnings can help us actually understand this moment in the church's life and what spiritual practices can actually sustain us as we're going through this. ⁓ what do you all think?

There's a theme developing here. I think anytime I'm too much of myself, I maybe need to take a step back. And so I think sometimes how do I decide if this is decline or failure or new life? I don't know. It kind of all looks the same at the first moment. But when I step back and say, okay, and create some room,

It's amazing. New life might actually be coming when I quit beating on the thing or get out of the way, right? And so I think I'm not a gardener. And more than once, I've taken ⁓ what I thought was something dead and just killed it and like just let it be and then it rises up again. And I think sometimes... ⁓

by us working too hard for revitalization, we actually are squelching the room for some new things to come. For example, if I think the model of church has to look like this with a sanctuary and a paid staff and et cetera, and it's just not working, and then I go back and then, this organic thing pops up over here that's been trying to get out.

for a while and like, ⁓ that's just not what I had in mind. So I didn't see it. I didn't see the new sprout coming up. So I think for me, the difference is first taking a ⁓ reflection or a time out to say, what do I think life looks like? Or what's the picture that that would be? And maybe I need to revisit it.

Well, I can't help but be reminded of Jesus's words about wheat, right? Jesus says, listen carefully, unless a grain of wheat is buried in the ground, dead to the world, it is never any more than a grain of wheat. But if it is buried, it sprouts and reproduces itself many times over. In the same way, anyone who holds on to life just as it is destroys that life. But if you let it go,

Reckless in your love, you'll have it forever, real and eternal. And to me, Jesus' life, right, is the epitome of that. ⁓ When he dies on the cross, it's the worst day ever for the disciples. And three days later, it becomes the best news, greatest news of the world. ⁓ And to your point, Terry, right, in that first moment of death,

It all looks the same. mean, is this death? Should we continue to press on? Do we accept it? Might new life be coming? We don't know. And kind of back to that element of we are living in very uncertain times. We don't know what's on the other side. We don't know how this story will unfold. And I just, think it begs us to have that posture of curiosity rather than ⁓ certainty that we know what needs to happen next. don't.

⁓ And I think sometimes what appears like might be death is actually paving the way for new life.

So I'm thinking about the reality, and we can, I think, talk honestly about this, that a lot of churches are reaching the end of their institutional life cycle right now, which is a totally normal thing. It's happened all through church history, and it's part of the contextualization of the church in different times and seasons for particular cultural forms and generations. And we have a lot of churches in the US, for instance, that were started after World War II.

with a whole set of assumptions, cultural assumptions about how people connect to church and all that and generations that really tended them faithfully that are reaching the end of their life cycles. They do need to be either composted in some way. And I think composting is a wonderful gardening metaphor for how does God bring new life out of what has passed and what isn't going to be a new plant in that same way. And then,

And then also to have imagination for what new things the spirit wants to create in this moment. so a lot of what pains me as I visit churches out and around is a lack of imagination for how to recontextualize or adapt the church's ministry to fit with the people who are in the neighborhood or people's, know, children or grandchildren or just younger generations. And a lot of it isn't like super hard and complicated.

You know, the aesthetics in a lot of churches are antique, put it that way. They kind of are, right? If we're honest about it, right? And will thus have a limited appeal to people who are kind of, you know, it's like the people who like vinyl records or whatever. Like there's a certain people who, purists who like that, but it's not speaking a language of where other people are at. And so how do we translate? How do we adapt and be creative about that while also continuing on?

the faithful legacy of gospel witness in that place and not kind of wetting ourselves too much to one particular cultural form. think that's a dilemma. So, you this only works if you have clarity on what your gospel witness is, right? Who are you and God and what is the story you have to offer? And then freed by that are able to do that creative work of through listening with neighbors, adapting and ⁓ recontextualizing.

I also think it's taking apart the packaging of the antiques versus the gospel. Right. Right. Are you worried about the stained glass window, the organ, the pews, where the building is, what it looks like? Or are you actually carrying our people in this community, drawing their hope from a living God? I think...

We haven't been taught, at least as Christian public leaders that have been theologically educated, to ⁓ just go to the heart of it. We've inherited and then nuanced all of the package of church. And some of us have gotten pretty comfortable leaving in that kind of a way. And we know how to do a good sermon in that, you know, whatever, in that form. And it's uncomfortable.

to just go and say, would hope look like with this community of people that's feeling on the margins or feeling displaced? One of our graduates that was just here was talking about her ministry with families. She and her husband had been at a church and left, over after the pandemic, and a lot of them weren't connected with church, and she just started gathering people in her backyard because they were lost.

hope reimagined as she just gathered and created space. And I thought, that's the imagination I want to have, is not to rely on the church infrastructure all the time, right? ⁓ Now there's other challenges that come with that, but I thought she got at the core question of what does it mean to be following a living God and to cultivate spaces where people could wander together.

Well, and I think for me, ⁓ I've come back to this passage in scripture a lot of times in my life when I'm like literally uncertain about like, I just have no idea what's next. And for me, that is Jesus's response to what is the most important commandment. And Jesus says, love God, right, with all you are, and love your neighbor as much as you love yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these two things. And so I think that for me,

Whenever I'm just completely at a loss, I just come back to, all right, what's most important commandment? And now, how do I live that out right now? And I can't help but wonder if our churches ask that of themselves as well in times of deep uncertainty, what that might unfold and look like.

Yeah, I think those stories and those practices that help us lean into that promise are essential. They're always essential for the life of the church, but particularly now in this kind of season.

So as we wrap up today, we want to leave you with some questions for your own reflection and maybe conversations around tables with your leadership. Which of the four pivots feels most urgent for your community right now? Where do you see signs of God's activity that you might have overlooked?

What would it look like to move from a fixing mindset to a listening and discerning mindset in some particular area of your ministry? How might your community experiment with shared leadership while also maintaining biblical faithfulness? And finally, what would it mean to measure success by discipleship formation rather than membership metrics?

Thank you for joining us for this Q &A episode. We hope this conversation has been helpful as you navigate your own ministry challenges.

And just a reminder that these pivots that we're discussing aren't destinations. They're ongoing practices of reorienting us to what God is doing right now in our changing world.

And if you have questions that you'd like us to address in future episodes, please send them our way. You can email them to us at faithlead at luthersem.edu. We read every email and comment and your input shapes what we talk about on this podcast.

And finally, to help spread the word about Pivot, please like and subscribe on YouTube, leave a review, or share Pivot with a friend. See you next week.