The JudgeMental Podcast – EP 05 AI is Coming

Hosts: Hugh & Christine

Episode Summary:

In this candid and insightful episode, Hugh and Christine, the minds behind Judge-y, dive deep into the realities of the court system, judicial accountability, and the challenges facing both practitioners and the public. They discuss their recent experience observing local judges, the persistent backlog in district courts, and the impact of COVID-era scheduling on justice delivery.

Key Topics:

• Judicial Attendance & Accountability: The hosts share their observations on the low number of judges present in court and what that means for public trust and case backlogs.
• The 10-Day Rule & Scheduling Issues: How attempts to waive the 10-day preliminary hearing rule affected court efficiency and defendants’ rights.
• Courtroom Practices: The quirks of local court systems, from handwritten “jackets” to the lack of electronic processes.
• Prosecutorial Policies: The impact of hardline policies on case outcomes, especially for vulnerable defendants.
• Bar Association Critique: A frank discussion about the Kentucky Bar Association’s role, mandatory CLEs, and the mental health of attorneys.
• Legal Advertising & Professional Culture: The evolution of attorney advertising rules and the tension between tradition and innovation.
• AI & the Future of Law: Predictions on how artificial intelligence will transform legal practice, from document review to judicial analysis.
• Judicial Orders & Staff Attorneys: The ethics and realities of staff attorneys drafting orders and the use of signature stamps.
• Public Perception & Social Media: How speaking out about the judiciary can provoke strong reactions, both online and within the legal community.
• Listener Engagement: The hosts read and react to audience comments, including a poll about courtroom attendance and some lighthearted banter about martinis and Burger Week.

Notable Quotes:

• “Absolute power corrupts absolutely, regardless of the scale that it’s on.”
• “If attorneys could run businesses like a business, they could innovate, they could cut the cost down, which would then trickle down somewhat.”
• “AI is going to change everything about law practice in the next few years.”

Call to Action:

Stay tuned for updates on Judge-y and the push for greater transparency in the courts. Visit judgey.com for more information, and don’t forget to follow, rate, and review the podcast!

Connect with Us:

• Website: judgey.com

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: welcome.

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Yesterday, two 50 to three 10 ish.

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Right?

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We had eight of the 39 judges there.

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What do you think about it?

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Hugh: I am not surprised if you recall

when we first talked about it, you know,

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that that was a comment that I made.

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If we were talking about three o'clock.

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Oh, I said three o'clock on a Friday.

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Yeah.

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But my experience has been later in

the afternoon, the less you're going

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to have by a pretty, you know, this

is, there's a drastic difference

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between one 30 and three o'clock.,

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I've always found.

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So I , wasn't super shocked, but now

that I'm thinking about it in the

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context of these are the courts that

are supposed to be serving people.

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This is this, these are the courts that

we're supposed to be giving hearings

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to my clients who had urgent needs.

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Mm-hmm.

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And it's not just me as a practitioner

trying to get one thing done

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at a time over there in court.

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It's disappointing.

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It's , very disappointing

that's how it is.

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Christine: It's extremely disappointing

and I think in particular, there's

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no excuse whatsoever for district

court to have for judges there.

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District court should be open

most of the time because like I

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said last time, they're not really

doing this amount of writing orders

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like you do in Circuit and family.

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They're not doing these massive, , trials

and they're mainly doing, , preliminary

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hearings which get sent up pre-trials,

pleas if they have a jury trial.

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Which I mean, how rare is

that to even happen nowadays?

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I, we actually, we may have seen one.

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I'm not positive That could have been

a guardianship trial when we saw those

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three lawyers outside District Court.

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Hugh: Yes.

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I have no idea.

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'cause it was a confidential case

and so the only thing I could think

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it would be a guardianship trial.

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I think

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that happens pretty often.

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I think guardianships are pretty common

and you have hearings regularly and they

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are always going to be confidential.

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So

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Christine: guardianships

are super depressing.

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It's very much think in Kentucky we don't

have conservatorships, at least I don't

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know that we have conservatorship, do we?

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It's a guardianship.

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Like Britney Spears would've

been under a guardianship.

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She would've never, it would've never

happened in Kentucky, 'cause a jury

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would've never done it, in my opinion.

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But we do have that safeguard in

Kentucky, which I think is extraordinary.

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Now, they're the most depressing

things to watch, though.

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Hugh: They can be.

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I mean, a lot of times, I've always

thought that probate matters.

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Guardianship matters are some of

the only things that can match the

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emotion and, and just, lack of better

word, craziness of family court.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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. It's just such a different world

than litigating financial matters

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or contracts and things like that.

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People get angry about that.

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But it is so much different when

you're dealing with family dynamics and

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people are fighting over who is best

qualified to take care of a loved one.

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And it's not just one

person versus the other.

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It might be one whole side of the

family versus the other side of

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the family, and they're all there.

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And it's, I mean, it's, it really is wild.

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Christine: Yeah.

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In district court, a lot of it,

especially like in my time it

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would be theft at Walmart, theft

at Walmart, theft at Walmart, you

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know, people, obviously stealing's

bad, but substance abuse issues.

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But it's not anything that creates

this visceral reaction mm-hmm.

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From the judge or from the even parties.

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You know, oftentimes by the time

you're charged it, and get to

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court, it could be months later and

then you're getting probated time.

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And so I just struggle with the fact,

I think district court in particular,

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in 2021, I believe really when they

tried to pull that whole 10 day thing

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Hugh: let's, yeah, we, you've

mentioned that a couple times.

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If, explain what was going on at that

time because it was something that I.

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I had heard about it at the time,

but I had forgotten and I didn't

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do a deep dive at the time.

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But now learning more about

it is really quite appalling.

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, Christine: So in 2021, , obviously

there was a backlog of cases from COVID.

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There's still a backlog of

cases, but what they wanted to

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do was waive the 10 day rule.

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So if you're in custody and you are

charged with a felony and you are

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going through district court, okay.

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'cause you can get, you can be

charged with a felony in district

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court as an F case, or they can

skip that process and go on to just.

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Walk you into the grand jury

and indict you, that's a

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completely different protocol.

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10 day rule does not apply in circuit

court, but if you're arrested through

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district court, you have to have a

preliminary hearing within 10 days.

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And if that preliminary hearing

doesn't happen, they have

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to release you from custody.

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At that prelim is where they have

to establish probable cause that

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goes before the judge probable

cause that the felony occurred.

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Hey, , we're sending it

up to the grand jury.

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And they wanted to abandon the 10

day rule in order to, frankly, in my

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opinion, I think they wanted to have

week on, week off schedules allegedly.

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Hugh: Okay.

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How how does the 10 day rule, how

would that affect week on, week

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on off schedules for the judges?

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Christine: Well, if there's 16

judges at the time there were 17.

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So if you look at just, this is from

their website, what you can gather from,

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I think right now they'll have five,

courtrooms open in the morning, five

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courtrooms open in the afternoon, and then

you're gonna have juvenile court as well.

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And if there's a confidential,

so maybe six courtrooms, you

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got 12 courtrooms at each time.

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And the goal back in the day, I mean

back, or like just any competent person

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is gonna be like the judge that does

the arraignment is, should be the

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judge that does the prelim, right?

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That's how it's done in the counties.

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Unless it's like a rare circumstance

because of this 10 day time period.

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Hugh: And why would that be beneficial?

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Christine: The judge that's making

the decisions about the case should

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be the same judge throughout the case.

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I mean basic, basic.

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, And I don't think that's happening

right now in district court.

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Now.

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I'm not going on a regular basis to

see that, but I think what that allowed

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them to do, because if you had that week

downtime, you could never schedule your

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prelims within the 10 day time period.

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Hugh: I see.

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, Christine: So it's just

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Hugh: for a practical matter.

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, The 10 day time period was incompatible

with a week on, week off schedule.

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Christine: It was incompatible with them

being used to working the COVID schedule,

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which is in and of itself insane.

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I mean, you think back, there's so

many problems with Louisville that

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people, , that only practice in

Louisville think that they're so much

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more tech savvy and all that stuff.

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I mean, Louisville District Court is,

I remember the first time I went there

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and I practiced in eastern Kentucky.

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I never saw any level of like the jackets.

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You, you know what a jacket is?

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Yes.

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Hugh: Oh, yeah.

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Christine: But, that's

the stupidest thing.

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Like a jacket is a coat.

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, But in Louisville, their files are in

an envelope and they call it a jacket.

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And everything's done by

handwriting, not electronic.

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Now y'all, one thing that's crazy

is we were doing, arraignments

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video arraignments in 2010 in

Eastern Kentucky, 15 years ago.

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Mm-hmm.

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And our jail is attached

to the district court.

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Hugh: You mean here in Jefferson County?

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In

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Christine: Jefferson, yeah.

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And they couldn't get together to

figure out a system to do video

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arraignments during the Global Pandemic.

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They could go to the country club.

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Hugh: So for the viewers.

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Very important things happen at both the

arraignment and the preliminary hearing

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Christine: Prelim is

significantly more important.

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Well, I mean, you are always gonna

have the bond recommendations Yes.

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Whether you're going

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Hugh: to stay in custody or not.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And the judge should be reviewing that.

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They should be, you do an intake when

you get arrested and you get like a score

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that comes out should, which, you know,

should go into consideration by law, by

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statute, and enacted by the legislature

to determine what your bond should be.

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But really in Louisville I think that's

why they have their little name plates.

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Like they, you know how you can take

out your name plates in each division?

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Mm-hmm.

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'cause they're

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going to different courtrooms.

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Sure.

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So it's not like, like if you go

to division eight in, , family

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court, Brian Gate's courtroom

is Brian Gate's courtroom.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, in district court, if we're

gonna have 16 judges that make $140,000

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a year, we need to have 16 courtrooms.

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Right.

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Hugh: I mean, you would think that it.

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If it was a full-time job, you would

need 16 courtrooms for 16 judges.

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What.

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What type of backlog is

there in district court?

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This is something that

I'm not familiar with,

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Christine: honestly.

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I don't know that I can even say

articulately in a way that we

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actually have access to that data.

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I mean, you have people

saying there's a backlog.

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You know, you've got, you've got our

county attorney here that publicly

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talks to the media that says Louisville

citizens won't have faith in the judges

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until they stop working part-time.

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And I'm paraphrasing, but this was

a quote in the courier and I think

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WDRB when all of this was going down.

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But I don't know if you went out in the

community, if anyone's gonna be like, oh

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yeah, I think they're doing a really good

job of resolving cases, trying cases.

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You know, I don't think

, that's the feel at all.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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, I did find that it was, , I think the

first criminal matters that I ever

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handled were here in Jefferson County.

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And so then when I went to other courts,

they were handled so differently.

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I.

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That it was a little bit of a, a shock.

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And, and the, the jackets, I

forgot all about the jackets.

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The jackets just have a timeline

of what's happened in the case.

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They start the handwriting, handwriting

at the top, the next appearance.

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They write down what happened,

and it just goes down in a line.

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And part of it is you don't know

who's gonna be the prosecutor who's

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sitting there in the conference room

to conference the case the next time

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you come back, especially if it's

something minor and they can look

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at the jacket and see what was done.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, it might be

someone completely different.

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And that happens a lot in dependency,

neglect, and abuse cases too,

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where they might have a assistant

county attorney who is on the case.

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But any given day that you are there,

it may be someone completely different.

222

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They just have to read through

the file and sort of catch up.

223

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In order to negotiate

and conference the case.

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Christine: Yeah.

225

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And also our prosecutors here, , they're

not giving hardly any difference to

226

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make their own determinations, which

is another huge problem in Louisville.

227

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Like they'll have a hard stance policy.

228

00:09:54,230 --> 00:09:58,660

And really, in my opinion, , that's

touching on some ethical issues like

229

00:09:58,690 --> 00:10:01,150

attorneys have cases are nuanced.

230

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Do you know what I mean?

231

00:10:02,130 --> 00:10:04,055

. I'm trying to think of an example of one.

232

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When I was a public defender, I had a

young client that was poor that stole meds

233

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from Walmart and they had this policy that

was, if you, your first offense for theft

234

00:10:14,495 --> 00:10:17,375

by unlawful taking was 30 days served.

235

00:10:17,375 --> 00:10:17,855

10

236

00:10:17,985 --> 00:10:21,705

. The facts of that, when we got

into it, she was young and she had

237

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stole UTI medication 'cause she

had a UTI and couldn't afford it.

238

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And it was like 10 days in jail is not

the appropriate punishment for that.

239

00:10:29,055 --> 00:10:33,645

She was poor, she was in pain

and she had no record whatsoever.

240

00:10:33,805 --> 00:10:35,935

That's not something that

someone should go to jail for.

241

00:10:35,935 --> 00:10:38,425

When you're talking about somebody

too that's going in and, you know,

242

00:10:38,695 --> 00:10:41,605

pocketing back at that time, big

thing with like DVDs and selling

243

00:10:41,605 --> 00:10:46,045

'em to pawn shops and stuff like

that to use very different facts.

244

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Hugh: Yeah.

245

00:10:46,225 --> 00:10:46,345

Yeah.

246

00:10:46,345 --> 00:10:49,705

But the same result because that's sort of

just, this is the standard deal we give.

247

00:10:49,825 --> 00:10:50,065

Christine: Yeah.

248

00:10:50,065 --> 00:10:54,545

Now my prosecutor out there he did, he had

a boss, but he did what he wanted to do.

249

00:10:54,545 --> 00:10:56,045

He did what he felt was right.

250

00:10:56,045 --> 00:11:00,105

And in Louisville, I think you'd have

to, , it would take two and a half,

251

00:11:00,105 --> 00:11:05,715

three years to adjudicate a case where

they were going to move off of whatever

252

00:11:05,835 --> 00:11:08,505

rule that Mike o Connell has given them.

253

00:11:08,535 --> 00:11:11,025

Like, I don't even know what the

current ones are at this point.

254

00:11:11,050 --> 00:11:11,950

Hugh: How often do they change?

255

00:11:12,620 --> 00:11:13,080

Do you know?

256

00:11:13,220 --> 00:11:14,090

, Christine: I think it just depends.

257

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, It's obviously they're political.

258

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And so it's gonna be, if they get

any sort of pushback, it's gonna be

259

00:11:19,630 --> 00:11:22,890

what the policy is from the public,

Michael Connell's a perfect example.

260

00:11:22,890 --> 00:11:24,690

He's very politically powerful.

261

00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:26,830

, And I don't know him personally.

262

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, I've seen some interactions, , in the way

that he's spoken to people, and that's

263

00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:32,545

not how I don't think it's appropriate.

264

00:11:32,545 --> 00:11:37,765

But his last election, he spent like

$330,000 for a job that makes like maybe,

265

00:11:37,765 --> 00:11:39,415

I don't even know, probably a buck 50.

266

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Hugh: To me.

267

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Weird.

268

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Very weird.

269

00:11:42,250 --> 00:11:45,850

Well, I mean, that's, most

politicians aren't paid a lot at

270

00:11:45,850 --> 00:11:47,320

their, you know, in their salaries.

271

00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:50,020

I mean, look at Washington, their

salaries are not super high, but they

272

00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:51,580

spend millions and millions of dollars.

273

00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:52,120

But that's crazy.

274

00:11:52,780 --> 00:11:52,810

Christine: Oh,

275

00:11:53,870 --> 00:11:55,250

Hugh: There's all the

power that comes with it.

276

00:11:55,250 --> 00:11:58,660

There's the power that ha, you know,

that comes with, uh, you know, , your

277

00:11:58,660 --> 00:12:00,280

next job after that position.

278

00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,670

, But that's, I mean, that's

part of our political process.

279

00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:06,120

I think it, because it exists,

it attracts people that are

280

00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:07,200

seeking that kind of power.

281

00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,730

And I don't think, and that's

not unique to any one person or

282

00:12:10,850 --> 00:12:13,040

state, local or federal government.

283

00:12:13,250 --> 00:12:14,570

I think that's how politics works.

284

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Not saying it should, right?

285

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But.

286

00:12:17,225 --> 00:12:18,485

Christine: I think I'm just still naive.

287

00:12:18,485 --> 00:12:21,935

I guess I always thought about that from

DC's perspective, but I didn't think

288

00:12:21,935 --> 00:12:26,225

about it as much locally because you

actually live here, so that's what Yep.

289

00:12:26,285 --> 00:12:27,425

Gets weird to me.

290

00:12:27,545 --> 00:12:30,185

But it seems like absolute power

corrupts absolutely, regardless

291

00:12:30,185 --> 00:12:31,235

of the scale that it's on.

292

00:12:31,415 --> 00:12:34,195

Hugh: Well, I mean, I've always

understood, you know, if you're, if

293

00:12:34,195 --> 00:12:37,765

you're sitting in Congress or even

state legislature and you, you have

294

00:12:37,765 --> 00:12:42,025

that position that doesn't pay much in

and of itself, but you're developing a

295

00:12:42,025 --> 00:12:46,105

network that you can use later for much

more lucrative jobs and lobbying and,

296

00:12:47,135 --> 00:12:49,865

pushing for legislation for specific

industries and things like that.

297

00:12:49,985 --> 00:12:56,690

I don't understand it as much at the

local government level, honestly.

298

00:12:56,790 --> 00:12:59,430

Where that, you know,

what that power gets you.

299

00:12:59,430 --> 00:13:02,100

It's, it's just not as direct to me.

300

00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,110

Christine: I mean, it's just the ability

to like micromanage a bunch of people.

301

00:13:05,170 --> 00:13:07,690

Maybe that's, that's the

power in and of itself.

302

00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:08,350

I don't know.

303

00:13:08,350 --> 00:13:08,410

Yeah.

304

00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:09,340

Hugh: I don't know.

305

00:13:09,730 --> 00:13:14,540

So who puts the pressure on for

changes of those set policies that

306

00:13:14,540 --> 00:13:16,310

the prosecutors have to adhere to?

307

00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:18,530

Christine: I guess it would

just depend on what the talking

308

00:13:18,530 --> 00:13:20,330

point of the day is, you know?

309

00:13:20,330 --> 00:13:27,050

'cause there was a time prior to

2020 where it was not politically

310

00:13:27,050 --> 00:13:31,880

advantageous to say anything negative

about LMPD at all, especially

311

00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,440

from a prosecutorial standpoint.

312

00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:38,720

And then all of a sudden it became

anything and everything that LMPD

313

00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,120

does wrong is leaked to the press.

314

00:13:41,270 --> 00:13:44,300

I mean, and the press wa

they were eating that up.

315

00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:44,660

I mean, sure.

316

00:13:44,930 --> 00:13:49,370

That's all they wanted to report

on was the misdeeds of LMPD.

317

00:13:49,490 --> 00:13:51,860

And I ain't saying there weren't

problems within LMPD at all.

318

00:13:52,190 --> 00:13:56,070

No doubt , but the same problems

that exist in that arena

319

00:13:56,070 --> 00:13:57,270

exist within the judiciary.

320

00:13:57,270 --> 00:13:57,300

Okay.

321

00:13:57,630 --> 00:14:00,870

Exist within any government entity like.

322

00:14:02,370 --> 00:14:06,570

Do you think there's any agency that a

hundred percent of the people are good?

323

00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,770

Hugh: No, but there's no, there's

no team, there's no organization,

324

00:14:10,770 --> 00:14:12,300

there's no, there's no family.

325

00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:15,270

There's no unit of people where

everybody's a hundred percent good.

326

00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:15,600

Christine: Right.

327

00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:15,690

I

328

00:14:15,690 --> 00:14:17,940

Hugh: don't think any one

person, you know, there aren't

329

00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:19,740

any people that are 100% good.

330

00:14:19,950 --> 00:14:20,280

Christine: Agree.

331

00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,520

So why is it so radical to say, Hey,

we need to look at the judiciary.

332

00:14:23,550 --> 00:14:28,260

Like, why is , there's such a visceral,

oh my gosh, how dare you say that?

333

00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:29,700

All these judges work hard.

334

00:14:29,750 --> 00:14:30,050

Hugh: Oh, yeah.

335

00:14:30,050 --> 00:14:30,950

No, I, I agree.

336

00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:38,280

, I think judges are unique to a certain

extent because of the law industry and

337

00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:44,280

the legal community being unique that

we are, we are really regulated in

338

00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,740

what we can say, what we can say to the

public, what information we can disclose.

339

00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:54,420

It wasn't long ago, in fact, toward

the beginning of my career not long

340

00:14:54,420 --> 00:14:57,690

before I started practicing here

in Louisville, you weren't allowed

341

00:14:57,690 --> 00:15:00,060

to advertise as an attorney at all.

342

00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:05,570

And if you did advertise it, , you

could post your name, address

343

00:15:05,570 --> 00:15:08,330

and phone number and that you

were a lawyer and nothing else.

344

00:15:08,390 --> 00:15:12,080

You still, , can't have trade names, you

have to just be the names of the attorney.

345

00:15:12,085 --> 00:15:16,275

, There's this whole assumption that the

legal industry is completely different.

346

00:15:16,305 --> 00:15:19,215

And number one, I find that it

insults the public's intelligence.

347

00:15:19,275 --> 00:15:19,605

Christine: Yeah, I

348

00:15:19,605 --> 00:15:22,065

Hugh: mean, it used to be

every advertisement had to say

349

00:15:22,065 --> 00:15:24,105

in big conspicuous language.

350

00:15:24,105 --> 00:15:25,545

This is an advertisement.

351

00:15:25,935 --> 00:15:26,805

No kidding.

352

00:15:26,835 --> 00:15:27,975

It's on a billboard.

353

00:15:27,975 --> 00:15:29,145

Yeah, it's on a TV commercial.

354

00:15:29,325 --> 00:15:30,975

Fortunately, that kind

of stuff has gone away.

355

00:15:31,025 --> 00:15:35,285

The fact that you had to have every blog

post or every change to your website

356

00:15:35,465 --> 00:15:39,675

pre-approved and pay for it, , by

the Bar Association, that has finally

357

00:15:39,675 --> 00:15:45,895

gone away just because, , the, the

pace of media , and things online.

358

00:15:45,895 --> 00:15:47,575

It just, it just wasn't practical.

359

00:15:47,575 --> 00:15:52,585

But so much of that still exists in,

in, in that it's, it's completely

360

00:15:52,585 --> 00:15:56,155

taboo to talk about anything

that's wrong within the industry.

361

00:15:56,185 --> 00:15:56,275

Mm-hmm.

362

00:15:56,515 --> 00:16:00,475

To talk about a judge, God forbid

you talk about a bar association.

363

00:16:00,775 --> 00:16:05,245

I mean, it's the kind of thing that

there are several rules that people

364

00:16:05,245 --> 00:16:07,705

would say, oh, you're getting kind

of close on this rule just by, by

365

00:16:07,705 --> 00:16:13,825

criticizing something and it's protected

attorneys for a very long time, which

366

00:16:13,825 --> 00:16:16,645

I tend to believe most of the rules.

367

00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:19,060

Are protectionists of the industry.

368

00:16:19,150 --> 00:16:19,270

Yep.

369

00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:23,670

, The keeping people out, the gatekeeping

and gatekeeping in a way that does

370

00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:27,350

not, and, and I'm referring to

bar associations, law schools not

371

00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:32,060

referring to any metric that affects

someone's ability to practice law,

372

00:16:32,060 --> 00:16:37,080

but just arbitrary gate gatekeeping

to keep a certain amount of attorneys.

373

00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,780

And they've gotten it right and they've

gotten it wrong at various different

374

00:16:39,780 --> 00:16:44,100

times, but I think there's just

something that we're taught from the very

375

00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:46,200

beginning that you don't rock the boat.

376

00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:46,350

Mm-hmm.

377

00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:48,660

You don't speak out about anything.

378

00:16:48,810 --> 00:16:52,770

Which is interesting because we do in

Kentucky have an ethical rule that if you

379

00:16:52,770 --> 00:16:56,970

see something that an attorney does wrong,

you ha you are supposed to report it.

380

00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:57,570

Christine: The rat rule.

381

00:16:57,575 --> 00:16:57,775

Yeah.

382

00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:58,080

Hugh: Yeah.

383

00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:05,369

Which is very strange because most

other rules seem to be aimed at.

384

00:17:06,285 --> 00:17:11,115

Maintaining the reputation of the bar of,

of attorneys in general, of the practice

385

00:17:11,115 --> 00:17:13,275

of law, and especially the judges.

386

00:17:13,665 --> 00:17:15,464

And then we have the rat rule, right?

387

00:17:15,464 --> 00:17:20,025

And I'm guessing that, , most disciplinary

things are handled very privately

388

00:17:20,025 --> 00:17:23,295

with attorneys, with the judges, so

that the public doesn't see what's

389

00:17:23,295 --> 00:17:24,915

going on and what's been reported.

390

00:17:25,365 --> 00:17:28,335

Christine: Yeah, I mean the Kentucky Bar

Association, , I tell people, and I have

391

00:17:28,335 --> 00:17:31,825

said this publicly, I said it about a year

ago, , to new lawyers, I would want all

392

00:17:31,825 --> 00:17:35,305

new lawyers to understand the Kentucky

Bar Association is not here to help you.

393

00:17:35,855 --> 00:17:39,965

It should be treated as someone that now,

unless you have a whole lot of money and

394

00:17:39,965 --> 00:17:41,495

your, your mommy and daddy were lawyers.

395

00:17:41,495 --> 00:17:43,655

So I think you maybe had a

little bit more friendship there.

396

00:17:43,655 --> 00:17:48,035

But you should understand

that the Bar Association's job

397

00:17:48,245 --> 00:17:54,395

primarily, in my opinion, is to

protect the bar and its power.

398

00:17:54,395 --> 00:17:57,755

Like just as a general status,

not the individual attorneys.

399

00:17:57,905 --> 00:17:57,950

Yep.

400

00:17:57,950 --> 00:17:59,495

You know, a lot of frustration you get

401

00:17:59,495 --> 00:17:59,975

we had.

402

00:18:00,725 --> 00:18:02,945

I wanna say maybe a decade

ago is when it started.

403

00:18:02,945 --> 00:18:06,395

We had all mass suicides from

trial attorneys in Kentucky.

404

00:18:06,395 --> 00:18:10,385

Like actually it made the New York Times

because we had such a high rate trial.

405

00:18:10,385 --> 00:18:15,905

Attorneys were committing suicide but

the Bar Association enacted so many rules

406

00:18:15,910 --> 00:18:19,715

about how we have to go to all these

mandatory CLEs about like, don't jump.

407

00:18:19,965 --> 00:18:21,855

, Which aren't helpful at all I don't think.

408

00:18:21,855 --> 00:18:22,815

For your mental health.

409

00:18:22,815 --> 00:18:24,495

Do you think those are good CLEs?

410

00:18:24,495 --> 00:18:28,515

Hugh: Well, I think, I don't think any

CLEI mean, there's a whole CLE industry.

411

00:18:28,515 --> 00:18:32,115

You have to get your

hours in to get approved.

412

00:18:32,115 --> 00:18:35,535

You have to basically be something

talking about something related

413

00:18:35,535 --> 00:18:41,465

to laws or regulations or HR or

something, , abstractly, ethical.

414

00:18:41,465 --> 00:18:43,745

And the Bar Association

says, yeah, this is fine.

415

00:18:43,745 --> 00:18:44,135

And then you.

416

00:18:44,660 --> 00:18:50,210

You have to, uh, nowadays, especially post

COVID, you just hit play , on a video.

417

00:18:50,210 --> 00:18:53,780

I don't know that that's really

helping, making people better attorneys.

418

00:18:53,780 --> 00:18:54,980

There are some very good ones.

419

00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:58,700

There are, yeah, the law update

ones specifically where , you will

420

00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:02,930

watch for a couple hours , and the

presenter will go through new changes

421

00:19:02,930 --> 00:19:06,080

in, in your specific, in a specific

area of law that you practice in.

422

00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,250

Those things are very helpful, but

I by and large don't think that

423

00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:14,000

that requirement really furthers

424

00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:14,840

Christine: well.

425

00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:15,260

This is a most

426

00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:17,210

Hugh: people's legal

knowledge and abilities.

427

00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:18,800

Christine: Yeah, I just

do you get your hours?

428

00:19:19,445 --> 00:19:20,075

We just had to do 'em.

429

00:19:20,315 --> 00:19:20,435

Hugh: Oh yeah,

430

00:19:20,585 --> 00:19:20,945

Christine: I got mine.

431

00:19:20,945 --> 00:19:21,245

Yeah, of course.

432

00:19:21,245 --> 00:19:21,575

Barely.

433

00:19:21,875 --> 00:19:25,075

But, , I, this is a perfect example

of how the Kentucky Bar Association,

434

00:19:25,075 --> 00:19:28,435

I don't think really cares about

the mental health of practitioners.

435

00:19:28,735 --> 00:19:30,175

And I emailed them about this.

436

00:19:30,205 --> 00:19:34,615

We got an email over Christmas break that

like, Hey, everyone have a great holiday.

437

00:19:34,615 --> 00:19:38,395

But remember these expire on

December 31st at midnight.

438

00:19:38,515 --> 00:19:42,115

And so I actually moved on December

31st this year, which was great

439

00:19:42,145 --> 00:19:45,285

'cause of that ice storm, but I was

sitting at home with my moving, like,

440

00:19:45,375 --> 00:19:47,145

shit, I got two more free hours.

441

00:19:47,145 --> 00:19:48,885

I might as well get listening to it.

442

00:19:48,935 --> 00:19:52,565

, In what world did it need to expire on

a holiday when we all should have been

443

00:19:52,565 --> 00:19:54,005

spending time with friends and family.

444

00:19:54,395 --> 00:19:57,575

And the bar association was like,

well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but

445

00:19:57,575 --> 00:19:59,705

we have tons of other opportunities.

446

00:20:00,245 --> 00:20:01,625

But that's just so arbitrary.

447

00:20:02,285 --> 00:20:02,345

Hugh: Yeah.

448

00:20:02,345 --> 00:20:02,615

I mean,

449

00:20:03,875 --> 00:20:05,945

Christine: what was the point

of it expiring on December 31st?

450

00:20:06,665 --> 00:20:10,925

Hugh: I can see the, I can see the

decisions being made, the group of

451

00:20:10,925 --> 00:20:14,135

people around a conference table

talking about 20 different things.

452

00:20:14,135 --> 00:20:16,655

And it was just, what do we wanna do?

453

00:20:16,655 --> 00:20:19,805

We want these to expire after a

certain amount of time or at the end

454

00:20:19,805 --> 00:20:21,275

of the calendar year or whatever.

455

00:20:21,275 --> 00:20:23,675

And someone said, end of the

calendar year, all right.

456

00:20:23,675 --> 00:20:25,685

And everyone said, yeah,

that's probably, that's fine.

457

00:20:25,685 --> 00:20:27,905

And they said it and there probably

wasn't a lot more thought about it

458

00:20:27,955 --> 00:20:29,845

Christine: but it's just contrary

to worrying about the lawyer's

459

00:20:29,845 --> 00:20:31,195

mental, like members of the bar.

460

00:20:31,285 --> 00:20:31,615

Yeah.

461

00:20:31,825 --> 00:20:32,635

Hugh: I, I agree.

462

00:20:32,875 --> 00:20:33,445

I agree.

463

00:20:33,745 --> 00:20:34,195

Especially 'cause

464

00:20:34,195 --> 00:20:35,215

Christine: we're on a fiscal year.

465

00:20:35,215 --> 00:20:37,045

Ours are all due at June 30th.

466

00:20:37,825 --> 00:20:38,035

Hugh: Yeah.

467

00:20:38,755 --> 00:20:40,585

Christine: We're not on a

calendar year for requirements.

468

00:20:41,545 --> 00:20:41,995

Nope.

469

00:20:42,295 --> 00:20:42,985

But I digress.

470

00:20:42,985 --> 00:20:45,205

But I mean, that, that's gonna

make the Bar Association mad.

471

00:20:45,235 --> 00:20:48,885

And I think there's probably, I

think we do have some help if there's

472

00:20:48,885 --> 00:20:50,415

substance abuse issues going on.

473

00:20:50,415 --> 00:20:54,645

I do think Kela, well, you

know, I, I don't even wanna

474

00:20:54,645 --> 00:20:56,115

go there today, to be honest.

475

00:20:57,585 --> 00:20:57,765

Hugh: Alright.

476

00:20:57,765 --> 00:20:59,445

, I've never had any issue I, I.

477

00:20:59,745 --> 00:21:02,265

I took great issue with the

advertising rules back when you had

478

00:21:02,265 --> 00:21:03,855

to get pre-approval for anything.

479

00:21:03,885 --> 00:21:04,065

Yeah.

480

00:21:04,065 --> 00:21:09,675

And the web was exploding and I was new

to town and was developing my business

481

00:21:09,675 --> 00:21:15,285

through this new media of websites and,

and digital marketing and was hamstrung

482

00:21:15,285 --> 00:21:21,915

and just couldn't figure out what

possible benefit there was to the public

483

00:21:21,915 --> 00:21:25,575

of some of those rules where it just,

it just didn't make any sense that we

484

00:21:25,575 --> 00:21:31,475

are so different than anyone else that

you know, the medical industry, someone

485

00:21:31,475 --> 00:21:36,635

that, you know, you want to talk about

if someone misinterprets something on

486

00:21:36,635 --> 00:21:41,495

a commercial for a medical product,

that it really is life and death.

487

00:21:41,525 --> 00:21:41,615

Mm-hmm.

488

00:21:41,855 --> 00:21:42,125

That.

489

00:21:43,025 --> 00:21:47,015

We as attorneys need pre-approval

to say, Hey, I'm a family attorney.

490

00:21:47,135 --> 00:21:48,065

This is what I do.

491

00:21:48,065 --> 00:21:48,905

Come talk to me.

492

00:21:48,905 --> 00:21:53,735

You know, that was, I just, I didn't

understand that except for , the only

493

00:21:53,735 --> 00:21:56,675

thing, and I was told over and over

and over again, oh, it's to protect the

494

00:21:56,675 --> 00:21:57,755

people that already have the business.

495

00:21:57,815 --> 00:21:58,805

This is just protectionists.

496

00:21:58,805 --> 00:21:59,885

It's always protectionists.

497

00:21:59,885 --> 00:22:01,205

It's always gatekeeping.

498

00:22:01,205 --> 00:22:03,305

Not actually protecting the public.

499

00:22:03,305 --> 00:22:05,725

But that, that's my opinion,

my experience with it.

500

00:22:05,725 --> 00:22:06,595

I complied.

501

00:22:06,595 --> 00:22:11,785

And when I complied, I had always dealt

with very nice people and, you know, I

502

00:22:12,325 --> 00:22:15,265

didn't feel like I was having to wait

for a very long time for anything.

503

00:22:15,265 --> 00:22:18,145

Christine: I think it is a little

weird that now you're like, you

504

00:22:18,145 --> 00:22:21,985

go from the rules 10, 15 years ago

where you have to, everything is so

505

00:22:21,985 --> 00:22:25,645

micromanaged as far as advertising and

now we have advertisers that can be

506

00:22:25,645 --> 00:22:27,625

like, fire your lawyer and hire us.

507

00:22:27,655 --> 00:22:31,045

Like, I think that's borderline

crossing a line for lawyers to

508

00:22:31,045 --> 00:22:32,575

talk about other lawyers like that.

509

00:22:33,055 --> 00:22:33,115

Hugh: Why?

510

00:22:33,415 --> 00:22:33,955

Christine: What do you mean?

511

00:22:34,285 --> 00:22:35,455

Hugh: Why is that any different?

512

00:22:35,455 --> 00:22:36,865

Or do you want a second opinion?

513

00:22:37,195 --> 00:22:39,985

I mean, I've seen those

commercials You not happy with,

514

00:22:39,985 --> 00:22:40,825

you know, what's been offered?

515

00:22:40,825 --> 00:22:41,665

Get a second opinion.

516

00:22:42,895 --> 00:22:43,825

Christine: Oh, I don't know.

517

00:22:43,825 --> 00:22:49,555

I mean, I just think it's in general

saying something disparaging without,

518

00:22:49,615 --> 00:22:50,725

Hugh: I don't think it's disparaging.

519

00:22:50,725 --> 00:22:52,405

You're not talking about anybody specific.

520

00:22:53,005 --> 00:22:55,975

I think when you see it, at least

from my opinion, when I see that in

521

00:22:55,975 --> 00:22:59,635

the, I've really only seen it for,

522

00:23:01,915 --> 00:23:03,925

I think bankruptcies and

523

00:23:04,285 --> 00:23:04,645

Christine: pi,

524

00:23:04,705 --> 00:23:06,535

Hugh: PI like so injury stuff.

525

00:23:06,535 --> 00:23:06,865

Christine: Mm-hmm.

526

00:23:07,885 --> 00:23:11,995

Hugh: I mean, we all know there are

factories that are doing the PI stuff.

527

00:23:11,995 --> 00:23:13,075

They settle cases.

528

00:23:13,075 --> 00:23:16,135

They, they don't necessarily get

top dollar, but they, they're

529

00:23:16,135 --> 00:23:17,365

not going to go to court.

530

00:23:17,395 --> 00:23:19,165

They handle it like a factory.

531

00:23:19,555 --> 00:23:23,905

If you want a decent amount of money

for your injuries or whatever, and

532

00:23:23,905 --> 00:23:27,265

you want it to be fast and you want it

to be handled very quickly with good

533

00:23:27,265 --> 00:23:28,825

communication, those places are great.

534

00:23:29,485 --> 00:23:32,875

Are there other attorneys who can get a

lot more money for that exact same case?

535

00:23:32,905 --> 00:23:34,105

Absolutely.

536

00:23:34,255 --> 00:23:35,665

Because they handle it differently.

537

00:23:35,695 --> 00:23:35,785

Yeah.

538

00:23:35,815 --> 00:23:37,405

They're not looking at

it as just another one.

539

00:23:37,405 --> 00:23:39,145

So we're sort of going

through the pipeline.

540

00:23:39,565 --> 00:23:42,835

And there's also a lot

of risk involved in that.

541

00:23:42,925 --> 00:23:48,415

Like the, the insurance companies have

these built in costs that they know this

542

00:23:48,415 --> 00:23:52,585

is about how it works with this, you

know, this law office that processes this.

543

00:23:52,585 --> 00:23:56,185

Many of our cases, we know what

we can deal with with them.

544

00:23:56,185 --> 00:23:59,635

But you get somebody else, you may,

you may, it may turn out worse,

545

00:23:59,635 --> 00:24:01,405

but you, it could be a lot better.

546

00:24:01,495 --> 00:24:02,605

I don't know that there's any.

547

00:24:03,100 --> 00:24:05,170

Reason why people shouldn't

be able to advertise that?

548

00:24:05,170 --> 00:24:06,340

I don't think it's disparaging.

549

00:24:06,340 --> 00:24:07,360

I think it's the truth.

550

00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:08,890

Christine: Oh, I don't know.

551

00:24:08,890 --> 00:24:11,740

It makes me feel a certain kind of way,

but maybe that's my own indoctrination.

552

00:24:11,740 --> 00:24:13,690

And I was thinking about

that last night a lot.

553

00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,410

I had a person that was asking me

questions, you know, uh, I get a lot

554

00:24:18,410 --> 00:24:22,010

of calls and a lot of dms and messages

from people that want help, and I'm,

555

00:24:22,060 --> 00:24:24,280

I still tend to believe in the system.

556

00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:27,980

But I do wonder if at some level

we've just been so indoctrinated.

557

00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,030

And I guess what I mean is like

when I went into education very

558

00:24:32,030 --> 00:24:35,150

briefly for six months, I was

immediately like, this is insane.

559

00:24:35,150 --> 00:24:36,110

This is not effective.

560

00:24:36,110 --> 00:24:37,070

This is nuts.

561

00:24:37,340 --> 00:24:38,810

This is not helping children.

562

00:24:38,810 --> 00:24:41,960

And then the goal isn't even helping

children, like, can y'all not see this?

563

00:24:42,020 --> 00:24:43,280

And great teachers out there?

564

00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,220

But I wonder if that's what people

think about when they come into the

565

00:24:46,220 --> 00:24:50,690

legal profession because we're just like

indoctrinated and it's just systemic and

566

00:24:50,690 --> 00:24:52,730

systematic, and this is how we do things.

567

00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:55,850

Hugh: Well, I mean, you, you

talked about why it's not okay,

568

00:24:55,850 --> 00:24:58,635

why people think it's not okay to

talk about judges or, and mm-hmm.

569

00:24:58,975 --> 00:25:01,430

But you feel you had that.

570

00:25:01,955 --> 00:25:05,435

Very reaction about attorneys

advertising that, Hey, your

571

00:25:05,435 --> 00:25:06,725

attorney may not be that great.

572

00:25:06,965 --> 00:25:11,105

Come see a second opinion, which

is just normal in any other,

573

00:25:11,105 --> 00:25:12,575

yeah, in any other industry.

574

00:25:12,575 --> 00:25:14,255

That is perfectly normal.

575

00:25:14,465 --> 00:25:17,705

And frankly, you know, as well as I

do, there are good attorneys, there are

576

00:25:17,705 --> 00:25:19,985

okay attorneys, there are bad attorneys.

577

00:25:20,345 --> 00:25:20,735

Christine: 100.

578

00:25:20,825 --> 00:25:28,655

Hugh: And it is just, I don't know if,

if, you know, the, we've been conditioned

579

00:25:28,655 --> 00:25:33,935

to think that attorneys are just this

monolithic category of people and we're

580

00:25:33,935 --> 00:25:38,925

all the same and we treated the same

and, and we we're not allowed to compete

581

00:25:38,985 --> 00:25:42,735

the way that other people in private

practice or in private businesses are.

582

00:25:42,735 --> 00:25:44,805

But we are businesses.

583

00:25:44,805 --> 00:25:49,005

And I think, but I, but I think one

of the ways that that has really

584

00:25:49,035 --> 00:25:53,355

done a disservice to attorneys

is small practice and solos.

585

00:25:53,475 --> 00:25:53,625

Yeah.

586

00:25:53,625 --> 00:25:56,895

That have been conditioned to think that.

587

00:25:57,915 --> 00:26:01,245

They are their practice no

matter what, they cannot see

588

00:26:01,815 --> 00:26:04,215

their company as a business.

589

00:26:04,275 --> 00:26:04,365

Mm-hmm.

590

00:26:04,695 --> 00:26:08,865

And ultimately what happens is

it also doesn't serve the public

591

00:26:08,865 --> 00:26:14,325

because when you can't run a practice

like any other type of business,

592

00:26:14,895 --> 00:26:17,415

you are involved in everything.

593

00:26:17,415 --> 00:26:20,025

You have to continue to

be involved in everything.

594

00:26:20,025 --> 00:26:21,645

There's not an exit strategy.

595

00:26:21,645 --> 00:26:25,665

It's not something that can be sold

very easily because we have rules

596

00:26:25,665 --> 00:26:28,725

against people from outside of the

legal industry having any ownership.

597

00:26:28,815 --> 00:26:28,905

Christine: Mm-hmm.

598

00:26:29,175 --> 00:26:29,295

And

599

00:26:29,295 --> 00:26:29,925

Hugh: law firms.

600

00:26:29,925 --> 00:26:34,185

And the end result is attorneys work

way past when they're actually able

601

00:26:34,185 --> 00:26:37,185

to do a good job with their clients

because there's not an exit strategy

602

00:26:37,725 --> 00:26:41,235

and just it's much more stressful.

603

00:26:41,235 --> 00:26:48,255

People, people will continue to just

sort of hit a wall and that other small

604

00:26:48,255 --> 00:26:53,465

businesses don't that would allow them

to grow and have, you know, innovate or

605

00:26:53,735 --> 00:26:56,555

have delegate much better quality of life.

606

00:26:56,585 --> 00:26:56,675

Mm-hmm.

607

00:26:56,915 --> 00:27:02,735

Like, I think, I think ultimately

it results in poor quality services.

608

00:27:02,855 --> 00:27:04,775

More, much more expensive services.

609

00:27:04,775 --> 00:27:08,765

Because if attorneys could run businesses

like a business, they could innovate,

610

00:27:08,765 --> 00:27:12,545

they could cut the cost down, which

would then trickle down somewhat.

611

00:27:12,545 --> 00:27:15,995

I mean, it would be a higher margin, but

it could bring legal costs down because

612

00:27:15,995 --> 00:27:17,345

that would be a great way to compete.

613

00:27:17,645 --> 00:27:21,155

Wait, I can do this in half the

time with half the man hours.

614

00:27:21,185 --> 00:27:21,275

Mm-hmm.

615

00:27:21,515 --> 00:27:26,375

For half the price, I'm not going to

charge the same amount and do that.

616

00:27:26,375 --> 00:27:28,535

I'm going to charge a lot

less than competitors.

617

00:27:28,655 --> 00:27:29,915

'cause you're going to clean up.

618

00:27:30,035 --> 00:27:30,155

Christine: Yeah.

619

00:27:30,395 --> 00:27:33,455

Hugh: And, and I think that, I think it

would work out in the public's interest.

620

00:27:33,515 --> 00:27:37,265

Uh, but, you know, for whatever reason,

uh, we wanna pretend that we're all

621

00:27:37,265 --> 00:27:41,105

the same, they are all the same skill

level that we, there's something

622

00:27:41,105 --> 00:27:45,275

special about a law business that makes

it incompatible with any, you know,

623

00:27:45,275 --> 00:27:46,715

running it like a regular business.

624

00:27:47,030 --> 00:27:50,390

Christine: Well, and that's why

I think AI is, I, I do not think

625

00:27:50,450 --> 00:27:55,220

solo practitioners in large firms

understand how much AI is gonna change.

626

00:27:55,220 --> 00:27:58,700

And I was a part of a firm very

briefly, and I saw, I'd say we've

627

00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:03,920

got two to five years left before law

firms are predominantly run by ai.

628

00:28:06,260 --> 00:28:13,670

Hugh: I if that, I think I came from,

I, I've worked within two very, very

629

00:28:13,670 --> 00:28:17,780

specific industries, family law and, and

environmental, but mainly international

630

00:28:17,780 --> 00:28:22,790

environmental, which is very, very

niche, you know, to get my head around

631

00:28:22,790 --> 00:28:26,420

all the different areas of law that

would have to be replaced by something

632

00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:28,400

I would have to think more about.

633

00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,690

But I can definitely list just

pages of things that could be

634

00:28:32,690 --> 00:28:35,480

better handled by someone running.

635

00:28:36,215 --> 00:28:39,755

Artificial intelligence, you

know, not running by itself

636

00:28:39,785 --> 00:28:41,341

because it just, no, no, no, no.

637

00:28:41,765 --> 00:28:46,955

Smart people coupled with artificial

intelligence are orders of magnitude

638

00:28:46,955 --> 00:28:53,315

more efficient, more thorough, and can be

far more professional than just a human.

639

00:28:53,315 --> 00:29:00,515

And you know, I think even in five

years you're still not going to have

640

00:29:00,515 --> 00:29:02,285

AI that just sort of runs itself.

641

00:29:02,285 --> 00:29:05,435

It can run the processes, it can do

the background work it, it can do the

642

00:29:05,435 --> 00:29:07,055

things that you instructed it to do.

643

00:29:07,505 --> 00:29:11,225

But I mean, there, there's a huge role

for the attorneys in that process.

644

00:29:11,255 --> 00:29:17,195

But so much of the legal industry,

so much of I mean from contract

645

00:29:17,195 --> 00:29:21,815

review, document review, I, I've spent

time in DC on document review teams

646

00:29:21,815 --> 00:29:23,765

where they were paying us to work.

647

00:29:24,305 --> 00:29:27,905

90, a hundred, sometimes

105 hours per week.

648

00:29:28,055 --> 00:29:30,845

And we're talking about hundreds

of attorneys at one firm.

649

00:29:30,875 --> 00:29:30,965

Mm-hmm.

650

00:29:31,205 --> 00:29:35,075

Just stuffed in the rooms, reviewing

documents that now could be done in

651

00:29:35,075 --> 00:29:41,135

a matter of minutes, weeks of things

that we did at, and I forget what

652

00:29:41,135 --> 00:29:43,775

they were charging the client hundreds

of dollars an hour per attorney.

653

00:29:44,075 --> 00:29:47,825

I, I worked on the team teams as

large as like 150 attorneys that were

654

00:29:47,825 --> 00:29:52,025

all in one large space sitting at,

at tables doing document review that

655

00:29:52,025 --> 00:29:54,815

could be done in an hour or less.

656

00:29:55,055 --> 00:29:55,355

Christine: Yeah.

657

00:29:55,485 --> 00:29:58,815

Hugh: And we would be doing that for,

for weeks or months on a project.

658

00:29:58,815 --> 00:30:05,655

And that stuff's going to change a lot of

the small mom and pop practices that, that

659

00:30:05,655 --> 00:30:10,095

just draft wills for people that draft

deeds, that do real estate transactions.

660

00:30:10,845 --> 00:30:12,315

Those should disappear.

661

00:30:12,610 --> 00:30:13,580

Christine: Well, I mean,

662

00:30:13,935 --> 00:30:16,095

Hugh: I mean, I'm not saying

the job should disappear.

663

00:30:16,095 --> 00:30:19,935

Someone should be running it, but

if the attorney likes that area of

664

00:30:19,935 --> 00:30:22,305

practice, then run it like a business.

665

00:30:22,305 --> 00:30:22,395

Mm-hmm.

666

00:30:22,545 --> 00:30:26,025

And let's pass those savings and the

efficiencies down to the clients.

667

00:30:26,295 --> 00:30:30,225

The fact that we still have real

estate transactions, that this is

668

00:30:30,225 --> 00:30:33,255

the biggest purchase that likely

anyone ever makes in their life.

669

00:30:33,255 --> 00:30:35,860

And it's on a handwritten

thing that it's insane.

670

00:30:35,860 --> 00:30:38,985

We, we fill out, that's like a, a

form and it takes like six people

671

00:30:38,985 --> 00:30:43,005

sitting around a table to do it and

weeks to get everything lined up and

672

00:30:43,005 --> 00:30:49,095

all of that stuff makes absolutely

no sense when, you know, even before

673

00:30:49,095 --> 00:30:53,595

there were, and you know, artificial

intelligence could be used to do it.

674

00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:57,720

I had helped develop software that could

do an entire divorce, fully customize

675

00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,390

every single piece of it in about 1.7

676

00:31:00,390 --> 00:31:00,990

seconds.

677

00:31:01,290 --> 00:31:01,710

Christine: Oh my goodness.

678

00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,880

Hugh: And but if you, if you did it

the traditional way where we had to

679

00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:06,960

go through it, it would be months.

680

00:31:06,975 --> 00:31:09,675

And just the processes.

681

00:31:10,125 --> 00:31:12,075

There are better ways

to approach them there.

682

00:31:12,075 --> 00:31:14,445

There are much better ways to

approach them, and I don't think

683

00:31:14,445 --> 00:31:15,795

it should ever replace people.

684

00:31:15,795 --> 00:31:17,175

I'm not advocating for that.

685

00:31:17,175 --> 00:31:22,695

I just think there are certain parts

of our industry that are long overdue

686

00:31:22,695 --> 00:31:26,145

for innovation and change, and it's

gonna disrupt and hurt a lot of people.

687

00:31:26,235 --> 00:31:28,395

Christine: But I think we've also

like cut our nose off to spite our

688

00:31:28,395 --> 00:31:32,145

face being like, it will never happen

to us, or we are elite as lawyers,

689

00:31:32,145 --> 00:31:34,695

therefore we don't have to lean in.

690

00:31:34,695 --> 00:31:37,155

And like you said, you know,

make best case scenarios.

691

00:31:37,155 --> 00:31:44,430

But I think, uh, family court judges in

particular, like AI as far as analyzing

692

00:31:44,430 --> 00:31:49,515

their decisions, just to see the

discrepancies would be a game changer.

693

00:31:49,845 --> 00:31:53,175

It would truly be a game changer

because I think a, I could look at the

694

00:31:53,175 --> 00:31:57,645

facts of the case, what was alleged,

well, and see the parental alienation

695

00:31:57,645 --> 00:31:59,205

patterns, the silver bullet pattern.

696

00:31:59,205 --> 00:31:59,237

I could and

697

00:31:59,242 --> 00:32:00,405

Hugh: we're at the point

where we could do that.

698

00:32:00,435 --> 00:32:02,655

I could I can think of.

699

00:32:03,375 --> 00:32:06,375

If you gave me a whiteboard probably

from the ceiling to the floor, I

700

00:32:06,375 --> 00:32:09,825

could sketch out exactly what we

would need to put that together.

701

00:32:09,825 --> 00:32:13,605

The tools are there now to do it,

which would be really cool and maybe

702

00:32:13,605 --> 00:32:16,455

something that we should do it,

given the time we could dive into.

703

00:32:16,485 --> 00:32:18,915

But I mean, I, I think of it this way.

704

00:32:19,665 --> 00:32:25,995

Robots are not running hospitals, but

doctors are supervising and controlling

705

00:32:25,995 --> 00:32:28,455

robots for very complex surgeries now.

706

00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:28,620

Mm-hmm.

707

00:32:28,705 --> 00:32:33,040

To much better results than a, you know,

you can't just turn a robot loose to

708

00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:34,720

cut someone open and do the surgery.

709

00:32:34,990 --> 00:32:38,650

They're guided by someone who is really

skilled, but there are things that

710

00:32:38,650 --> 00:32:44,800

are just technically better about the

machinery and the computational power

711

00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,890

that helps them get outcomes that we

could never have thought of before.

712

00:32:47,890 --> 00:32:47,950

Yeah.

713

00:32:47,950 --> 00:32:48,520

That existed.

714

00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:50,050

It would be the same thing with ai.

715

00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:57,440

It's just, it's, it's coming and

the courts and the bar association

716

00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,020

and attorneys can try to.

717

00:33:00,545 --> 00:33:04,265

Regulate it out or educate people

about the dangers of it all they

718

00:33:04,265 --> 00:33:07,655

want, but it's time to innovate.

719

00:33:07,715 --> 00:33:07,805

Yep.

720

00:33:07,835 --> 00:33:13,235

And the ultimate, the ultimate benefit

is going to be, to be to the public

721

00:33:13,235 --> 00:33:15,245

because it will bring costs down.

722

00:33:15,455 --> 00:33:18,365

It will make things

happen much, much faster.

723

00:33:18,695 --> 00:33:22,265

It could reduce so much backlog

through the court systems.

724

00:33:22,265 --> 00:33:25,685

There are systems that could be put

in place that would work better than

725

00:33:25,685 --> 00:33:29,735

people do, but there's, you know,

there are, there's fallout to that

726

00:33:29,735 --> 00:33:35,315

and it's not particularly popular

to do that, but you harness a good

727

00:33:35,315 --> 00:33:41,165

attorney and a good legal mind with the

technology could just scale up every

728

00:33:41,165 --> 00:33:42,965

single thing that a practice could do.

729

00:33:43,055 --> 00:33:47,975

Christine: Well, if you had, uh,

39 AI judges, how many AI judges

730

00:33:47,975 --> 00:33:49,595

would be working right now?

731

00:33:49,925 --> 00:33:51,365

Hugh: Now 24 hours a day?

732

00:33:51,425 --> 00:33:51,635

Yep.

733

00:33:51,635 --> 00:33:56,375

That I would never, oh my Lord, that,

that would be an absolute nightmare.

734

00:33:56,705 --> 00:33:58,505

Well, now what I could see would be.

735

00:33:59,285 --> 00:34:02,885

A tool to analyze the facts or to go

through if they had a tool that would help

736

00:34:02,885 --> 00:34:04,715

them go through the stack of bank records.

737

00:34:04,985 --> 00:34:10,475

So, you know, some cases that I have

and I know that it's, it's ridiculous

738

00:34:10,475 --> 00:34:15,304

to expect even a judge who's working

overtime all the time to go through

739

00:34:15,304 --> 00:34:20,284

and I try a case and I come in and the

other side is alleging something's wrong

740

00:34:20,284 --> 00:34:25,034

with, you know, how someone is spending

business money on personal things.

741

00:34:25,635 --> 00:34:29,925

In order to disprove that allegation,

I have to bring in stacks and I

742

00:34:29,925 --> 00:34:31,995

mean sometimes boxes of documents.

743

00:34:33,344 --> 00:34:37,545

No court in the world is going to

or should give me time to go through

744

00:34:37,545 --> 00:34:40,005

page by page, all of those, I mean

just, you're not going to get that

745

00:34:40,005 --> 00:34:41,415

time in a divorce or in family court.

746

00:34:41,655 --> 00:34:43,935

And I don't expect that anyone

has the time to have gone

747

00:34:43,935 --> 00:34:45,165

through those things, but.

748

00:34:46,395 --> 00:34:49,065

As a practitioner, that is

the way to prove my case.

749

00:34:49,185 --> 00:34:52,665

That is absolutely, and the,

the, the true black and white

750

00:34:52,665 --> 00:34:53,820

answer to the question mm-hmm.

751

00:34:53,905 --> 00:34:54,585

Is in there.

752

00:34:54,885 --> 00:34:57,885

And yeah, we can do some demonstratives,

we can go through things like that.

753

00:34:57,885 --> 00:34:58,455

What's demonstrative?

754

00:34:58,485 --> 00:35:03,255

Oh, where you, uh, the best way to

think of it's like a, a summary or, or

755

00:35:03,255 --> 00:35:08,595

a graphical representation of something,

something that summarizes or demonstrates

756

00:35:08,595 --> 00:35:11,055

in a, in, in some summary, fashion.

757

00:35:11,055 --> 00:35:12,015

A, a data set.

758

00:35:12,015 --> 00:35:13,305

It's like cohesive.

759

00:35:13,725 --> 00:35:14,085

Yeah.

760

00:35:14,085 --> 00:35:17,295

So I mean, the, the way that I

would use it mostly would be charts.

761

00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:17,330

Yeah.

762

00:35:17,330 --> 00:35:17,570

Yeah.

763

00:35:17,575 --> 00:35:20,655

I would use charts or I would use, I.

764

00:35:23,340 --> 00:35:24,450

Summaries of bank statements.

765

00:35:24,450 --> 00:35:27,630

So instead of here, we need you to

look through, you know, six pages

766

00:35:27,630 --> 00:35:28,830

of every single bank statement.

767

00:35:28,830 --> 00:35:31,830

Here is a demonstrative that has

the date of the bank statement.

768

00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:34,410

It says what page it is in the stack.

769

00:35:34,410 --> 00:35:35,910

If you wanna go double check my work.

770

00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:36,275

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

771

00:35:36,330 --> 00:35:36,510

But it

772

00:35:36,510 --> 00:35:38,550

Hugh: also says, here's the

amount in, here's the amount

773

00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:39,660

out, here's the final balance.

774

00:35:39,660 --> 00:35:42,750

And then I can put that together and

show a pattern easier than someone

775

00:35:42,750 --> 00:35:45,090

having to make their own notes

and go through thousands of pages.

776

00:35:45,090 --> 00:35:48,330

Christine: And so you're saying AI would

help with that analysis, and I agree a

777

00:35:48,330 --> 00:35:51,090

Hugh: AI could come through and,

and find those patterns and change,

778

00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:52,050

change, all of those things.

779

00:35:52,050 --> 00:35:56,730

But imagine if you could write a

evidentiary bot that you could give

780

00:35:56,730 --> 00:36:00,990

to, that you could use in court

to make the demonstrative and.

781

00:36:01,590 --> 00:36:04,920

Answer questions and walk through a

process in front of a judge that I

782

00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:05,880

Christine: think we'll have that soon.

783

00:36:06,060 --> 00:36:06,600

But imagine,

784

00:36:07,170 --> 00:36:08,790

Hugh: I don't know that they're,

they're gonna allow that anytime soon.

785

00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,260

Christine: Well I think in

Louisville we need to have, court

786

00:36:11,260 --> 00:36:12,610

should be open 24 hours a day.

787

00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,490

I mean, if we have 30, and I'm

not saying full time obviously,

788

00:36:15,490 --> 00:36:18,580

like, but I don't understand how we

have a million people, people here

789

00:36:18,580 --> 00:36:19,720

and we don't have a night court.

790

00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:20,680

Isn't that weird?

791

00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,060

Like, that's another thing.

792

00:36:22,060 --> 00:36:23,155

Our profession, you have night court.

793

00:36:23,410 --> 00:36:28,090

I know our profession's done a really

shitty job of like leaning into the times,

794

00:36:28,090 --> 00:36:30,550

like, your hospital's open 24 hours a day.

795

00:36:30,940 --> 00:36:34,180

But I do think, and I think it would

be a, I'd love to be a night court

796

00:36:34,180 --> 00:36:36,940

judge or something like that and

just handle all of the arraignments.

797

00:36:36,940 --> 00:36:38,350

It would really keep the system.

798

00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:39,530

Going.

799

00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:44,190

But I definitely think utilizing AI

to just get rid of this backlog and

800

00:36:44,190 --> 00:36:46,740

to at least just get data to analyze.

801

00:36:46,770 --> 00:36:50,490

'cause like I said a hundred times, if

these judges are working 40, 50 hours

802

00:36:50,490 --> 00:36:53,610

a week and they are doing the best

that they can and they are on top of

803

00:36:53,610 --> 00:36:54,960

it, just show me you're doing that.

804

00:36:55,140 --> 00:36:55,830

You know what I mean?

805

00:36:55,830 --> 00:36:55,890

Yeah.

806

00:36:55,890 --> 00:36:59,460

Like why is that such

difficult information to get?

807

00:36:59,850 --> 00:37:04,830

Hugh: Yeah, I mean, I just keep going

back to if it's gonna take me between

808

00:37:04,830 --> 00:37:09,180

three and six months to get a hearing

date on something that is rather urgent

809

00:37:09,180 --> 00:37:14,010

in a family law case, why is it that

no one is sitting in the courtroom?

810

00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,070

Two of 10 family court

judges yesterday, regularly?

811

00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:20,270

When that time could,

could be open for hearings.

812

00:37:20,270 --> 00:37:24,500

There's no reason why that court

couldn't be processing things through

813

00:37:24,500 --> 00:37:26,060

and not making people wait six months.

814

00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,330

Christine: Well, and especially because,

you know, and this is super, super,

815

00:37:29,330 --> 00:37:33,385

super controversial and this is something

that in, in as far as the general public

816

00:37:33,385 --> 00:37:35,545

goes, but this is common sense to us.

817

00:37:35,545 --> 00:37:37,645

Like, and not common sense,

maybe condescending, but this

818

00:37:37,645 --> 00:37:38,815

is common knowledge I guess.

819

00:37:39,055 --> 00:37:40,885

But judges aren't

writing their own orders.

820

00:37:41,515 --> 00:37:41,635

No.

821

00:37:41,875 --> 00:37:43,345

Judges don't write their own orders.

822

00:37:43,345 --> 00:37:45,445

Like judges do not write their own orders.

823

00:37:45,745 --> 00:37:47,095

They have staff that write their orders.

824

00:37:47,125 --> 00:37:47,365

Sure.

825

00:37:48,115 --> 00:37:53,815

And it's so normal to us that

it doesn't feel wrong to me.

826

00:37:53,815 --> 00:37:56,515

But then when I start to think

about it, you know, I can see

827

00:37:56,515 --> 00:37:59,095

where the general public's, like

we didn't elect a staff attorney.

828

00:37:59,365 --> 00:38:02,065

We didn't elect, you know,

somebody that gets paid.

829

00:38:02,425 --> 00:38:04,525

God, I don't even know what

they make, like 40 k maybe.

830

00:38:04,705 --> 00:38:06,955

Hugh: Well, they also didn't elect,

I think it's more than that now.

831

00:38:06,955 --> 00:38:07,495

It went up.

832

00:38:07,495 --> 00:38:08,170

There was a big push.

833

00:38:08,725 --> 00:38:10,465

Well, thank God throughout.

834

00:38:10,465 --> 00:38:13,585

Yeah, I mean there was, there was a

big push from, from all sides, and

835

00:38:13,585 --> 00:38:16,855

especially from the judges to increase

the salary, but there were freezes on

836

00:38:16,855 --> 00:38:20,305

salaries through the a OC for so long.

837

00:38:20,635 --> 00:38:22,825

You know, people didn't

elect AI either, though.

838

00:38:23,065 --> 00:38:27,685

I mean, so you have to look at how

much is this somebody's else's judgment

839

00:38:27,685 --> 00:38:31,045

versus this person a tool that's

articulating the judge's judgment.

840

00:38:31,045 --> 00:38:35,725

If the judge is the one that sits and sees

the case and takes the notes and knows

841

00:38:35,725 --> 00:38:39,145

what factual findings he or she wants to

make, knows the legal conclusions they

842

00:38:39,145 --> 00:38:42,265

wanna make, and then communicates that

to the staff attorney to draft that and

843

00:38:42,265 --> 00:38:46,015

make it into something, I think that's

what people would expect would work.

844

00:38:46,105 --> 00:38:49,075

Christine: I think if that's happening,

I think sometimes they're delegating to

845

00:38:49,075 --> 00:38:50,995

their staff attorney to make the decision.

846

00:38:51,115 --> 00:38:51,865

Hugh: Oh, I know.

847

00:38:52,045 --> 00:38:55,715

I've been told, I've, I've hired

and spoken with and interviewed

848

00:38:55,715 --> 00:38:58,835

a lot of staff attorneys in my

day and know that that happens.

849

00:38:58,835 --> 00:38:59,465

I know that.

850

00:38:59,465 --> 00:38:59,915

Um, which is

851

00:38:59,915 --> 00:39:00,335

Christine: insane.

852

00:39:00,335 --> 00:39:00,695

That's wrong.

853

00:39:00,695 --> 00:39:00,815

Yeah.

854

00:39:01,085 --> 00:39:03,275

Hugh: I've heard about judges who.

855

00:39:04,325 --> 00:39:07,955

The staff attorney would have to change

the judge's opinion and fight with them

856

00:39:07,955 --> 00:39:11,825

about it because it might be racially

motivated or it might be, you know,

857

00:39:12,215 --> 00:39:16,355

mo motivated by some cultural bias

that the staff attorney did not agree

858

00:39:16,355 --> 00:39:19,595

with and felt that couldn't rule like

that and would, would have to fight

859

00:39:19,595 --> 00:39:21,230

over those decisions and oh my God.

860

00:39:21,230 --> 00:39:22,025

Sometimes would win.

861

00:39:22,025 --> 00:39:22,805

Sometimes they won't.

862

00:39:23,045 --> 00:39:23,255

Yeah.

863

00:39:24,065 --> 00:39:25,745

Christine: Oh, that's so too much.

864

00:39:26,015 --> 00:39:26,225

All right.

865

00:39:26,225 --> 00:39:28,765

Let's talk about quickly stamp signatures.

866

00:39:28,765 --> 00:39:29,605

How do you feel about that?

867

00:39:33,820 --> 00:39:36,010

I know that something like on the

face, the first time I talked to

868

00:39:36,010 --> 00:39:38,050

somebody about that, I was like,

duh, obviously they do that.

869

00:39:38,050 --> 00:39:39,040

They do that, they do that.

870

00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:42,010

And then I really started thinking about

it and started thinking about like some

871

00:39:42,010 --> 00:39:46,910

of the problems in particular I saw

out in eastern Kentucky with one person

872

00:39:46,910 --> 00:39:48,740

that had access to the judge's stamp.

873

00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:50,270

And so, I don't know.

874

00:39:50,270 --> 00:39:54,590

I am really torn about the fact that

someone else has the authority to

875

00:39:54,590 --> 00:39:58,790

do the judge's signature, because I

do think that creates an avenue for

876

00:39:58,790 --> 00:40:00,920

laziness that wouldn't exist otherwise.

877

00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,040

Like if they had to sign their

name, hopefully they read it.

878

00:40:04,125 --> 00:40:04,415

Yeah.

879

00:40:04,435 --> 00:40:04,935

But I think,

880

00:40:05,180 --> 00:40:06,230

Hugh: yeah, I, I agree.

881

00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:08,060

But I mean, you just have

to have controls in place.

882

00:40:08,060 --> 00:40:11,420

You have doctors are signing off

on charts or reviewing x-rays

883

00:40:11,420 --> 00:40:12,500

and stuff from their house.

884

00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:14,540

It doesn't mean they're

doing any worse of a job.

885

00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,050

There's like electronic

signatures from attorneys.

886

00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:21,500

I, I mean, there was a whole

category of things that I.

887

00:40:21,875 --> 00:40:24,005

Sort of pre-approve my signature to be on.

888

00:40:24,005 --> 00:40:27,095

If it was a motion to withdraw, if

it was a simple entry of appearance,

889

00:40:27,095 --> 00:40:28,145

well, we're not, or things like that.

890

00:40:28,145 --> 00:40:28,295

We're not,

891

00:40:28,295 --> 00:40:30,130

Christine: and electronic signatures

are different than the stamp.

892

00:40:30,275 --> 00:40:30,875

Hugh: No, I agree.

893

00:40:30,875 --> 00:40:35,145

But I, we, we had a lot of decisions

about this or discussions about

894

00:40:35,145 --> 00:40:38,505

this at, at my former job, we had

a lot of uncontested divorces.

895

00:40:38,505 --> 00:40:43,245

The attorney review process was, I mean,

the attorneys went through and approved

896

00:40:43,245 --> 00:40:47,295

of things, but then there was a second

round where it just hit our boxes and

897

00:40:47,295 --> 00:40:50,775

we would just go blindly and lift up

the sign here things and we would sign.

898

00:40:51,705 --> 00:40:54,585

It wasn't at another stage of review.

899

00:40:54,885 --> 00:40:55,935

You've already reviewed it.

900

00:40:55,935 --> 00:40:58,230

There's, you know, now there's

not, but the judges don't

901

00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:58,390

Christine: have that.

902

00:40:58,905 --> 00:40:59,895

Hugh: No, I, I agree.

903

00:40:59,895 --> 00:41:04,965

But we decided that, we still decided

against it just because of the possibility

904

00:41:04,965 --> 00:41:06,015

of errors and things like that.

905

00:41:06,015 --> 00:41:08,175

I don't think I fell on

the side of not doing it.

906

00:41:08,175 --> 00:41:12,285

I think I argued that we should allow

our electronic signatures to be placed

907

00:41:12,285 --> 00:41:13,725

on things that we've already reviewed.

908

00:41:13,725 --> 00:41:17,295

It's just you gotta have something

in place, or people are checking off.

909

00:41:17,295 --> 00:41:18,975

This has been reviewed,

this has been approved.

910

00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:21,035

I mean the,

911

00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:25,230

Christine: it's, it's hard though too,

because judges like, they have so much

912

00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,675

lawyers, we have so much power over

people's lives, but judges have, yeah.

913

00:41:28,675 --> 00:41:30,090

But so much power.

914

00:41:30,090 --> 00:41:30,270

How, how

915

00:41:30,270 --> 00:41:33,360

Hugh: does it change if a judge says,

okay, this is what I wanna rule on, on

916

00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:38,040

this case, gives it to a staff member,

they draft the order, then they just place

917

00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,140

it on the judge's desk for signature.

918

00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:41,310

I don't, I mean,

919

00:41:43,650 --> 00:41:45,000

Christine: well, that would, so

920

00:41:45,060 --> 00:41:48,540

Hugh: you're having to rely on the

judge who actually have read it first.

921

00:41:48,540 --> 00:41:51,420

And I would expect that they would

before they'd sign off on anything.

922

00:41:51,630 --> 00:41:51,810

Oh, I don't

923

00:41:51,810 --> 00:41:52,560

Christine: think they are.

924

00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,820

I mean, I don't even think the

legislature with separation of powers

925

00:41:55,820 --> 00:42:00,890

would have the authority to require

judges to read orders they signed.

926

00:42:01,370 --> 00:42:04,130

But I think our, their judicial

ethics would require them to

927

00:42:04,130 --> 00:42:05,240

read orders that they signed.

928

00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:05,300

I

929

00:42:05,300 --> 00:42:05,570

Hugh: agree.

930

00:42:05,570 --> 00:42:06,260

And that's what I'm saying.

931

00:42:06,260 --> 00:42:07,975

I mean, there's, there's rules.

932

00:42:07,975 --> 00:42:09,685

And if you're not, but you think they're

933

00:42:09,685 --> 00:42:10,225

Christine: following 'em.

934

00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,740

Hugh: I'm not saying, I'm thinking

they're following all the rules.

935

00:42:14,740 --> 00:42:19,330

What I'm saying is that stamping a

signature versus signing a signature.

936

00:42:19,330 --> 00:42:22,510

If a judge doesn't wanna read the order

before it's signed, does it really

937

00:42:22,510 --> 00:42:23,920

matter who's putting the signature on it?

938

00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:23,980

No.

939

00:42:24,190 --> 00:42:27,700

Whether it hits the judge's desk and

here's a stack of things, judge, you've

940

00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:29,080

already approved of these things.

941

00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:29,800

Signed them.

942

00:42:30,850 --> 00:42:34,720

And, and from a practical matter, I

mean, I don't, you know, I don't know

943

00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:38,620

that I would go through and read them

all if, if I had already approved

944

00:42:38,620 --> 00:42:40,900

what was there, and I would just

go through and blatantly sign them.

945

00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:43,210

If I gave permission, just

stamp my signature on it.

946

00:42:43,210 --> 00:42:49,340

Now, does that create the ability

of a staff member who isn't

947

00:42:49,340 --> 00:42:53,480

regulated the same way to then do

things with the judge's signature?

948

00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,270

That's a whole that's just a,

that's a totally different thing.

949

00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:57,690

But then.

950

00:42:59,250 --> 00:43:02,910

As we sit here, nothing is stopping them

from forging a judge's signature either.

951

00:43:02,910 --> 00:43:03,180

Right?

952

00:43:03,180 --> 00:43:05,910

So I, I think this is one of, if someone's

gonna break the rules of the law,

953

00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:06,810

Christine: they're gonna break the rules.

954

00:43:06,810 --> 00:43:07,110

Yeah.

955

00:43:07,110 --> 00:43:10,980

I think that's one of the things too

though, that like being in this world

956

00:43:10,980 --> 00:43:15,360

for, you know, a year and listening to

people that aren't lawyers, it's caused

957

00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,430

people to lose faith in the system.

958

00:43:17,860 --> 00:43:19,720

And I think even as lawyers like.

959

00:43:20,065 --> 00:43:23,965

One thing I'll say that lawyers talk

a lot of shit about is Supreme Court.

960

00:43:24,025 --> 00:43:27,925

They got no problems tweeting about

Supreme Court decisions and what a

961

00:43:27,925 --> 00:43:29,905

mess they are or how amazing they are.

962

00:43:29,905 --> 00:43:33,325

They do that until the end of

time, but they don't really do it

963

00:43:33,325 --> 00:43:34,735

when it comes to the local level.

964

00:43:34,735 --> 00:43:38,785

And I do think that that's another

weird thing to analyze as far as why

965

00:43:38,815 --> 00:43:42,595

do they feel so comfortable talking

negatively about something that

966

00:43:42,595 --> 00:43:44,155

doesn't directly impact their clients.

967

00:43:44,155 --> 00:43:47,335

But yet they're fearful to say anything

negative about somebody that has direct

968

00:43:47,335 --> 00:43:50,305

Hugh: Well, think of how many cases,

I mean how many cases did you have

969

00:43:50,305 --> 00:43:53,275

in front of the Supreme Court or the

Court of Appeals versus how many cases

970

00:43:53,275 --> 00:43:55,315

you had in front of the regular Yeah.

971

00:43:55,315 --> 00:43:56,185

Family court bar.

972

00:43:56,275 --> 00:43:57,745

Christine: Well, I mean, I know why

they do it, it's because they're

973

00:43:57,745 --> 00:43:59,215

scared of being retaliated against.

974

00:43:59,215 --> 00:43:59,305

Sure.

975

00:43:59,305 --> 00:44:01,165

But I think that in and

of itself is the problem.

976

00:44:01,225 --> 00:44:01,405

Well,

977

00:44:01,405 --> 00:44:02,935

Hugh: I agree, but that's exactly right.

978

00:44:02,965 --> 00:44:03,055

Mm-hmm.

979

00:44:03,295 --> 00:44:07,435

I mean, if you are the attorney

that's sitting out there, you know,

980

00:44:07,705 --> 00:44:11,575

talking about judges and then saying

that and, and a client has a case

981

00:44:11,575 --> 00:44:14,545

in front of that judge, you're

gonna lose the faith of your client.

982

00:44:14,695 --> 00:44:14,995

Christine: Yeah.

983

00:44:15,085 --> 00:44:15,325

Hugh: Are you

984

00:44:15,325 --> 00:44:16,225

Christine: ready to get the hate?

985

00:44:16,225 --> 00:44:18,685

Are you ready to get on socials and start

getting the hate comments like I get.

986

00:44:19,375 --> 00:44:21,775

Hugh: Oh, I, yeah, I, I don't know.

987

00:44:21,775 --> 00:44:25,195

I, I wanna say yes, I'm ready, but I,

when it starts happening really badly,

988

00:44:25,195 --> 00:44:28,555

then maybe I reconsider, I mean, not

reconsider doing it, but reconsider

989

00:44:28,705 --> 00:44:30,505

how ready I actually was for it.

990

00:44:30,505 --> 00:44:30,835

But, no,

991

00:44:30,835 --> 00:44:31,405

Christine: it's so bizarre.

992

00:44:31,405 --> 00:44:32,995

We need to read some of

the comments on here.

993

00:44:33,025 --> 00:44:35,815

And I will tell you, like you and

I have had private conversations

994

00:44:35,815 --> 00:44:40,375

about how the last two, three weeks,

like just the notion of some of the

995

00:44:40,375 --> 00:44:43,855

things that has been said about,

like's been said about me publicly,

996

00:44:44,045 --> 00:44:47,255

by some people in the judicial arena.

997

00:44:47,535 --> 00:44:50,925

It's just super bizarre to have

it happen in real time and see

998

00:44:51,225 --> 00:44:52,545

that we're striking such a nerve.

999

00:44:52,575 --> 00:44:53,175

Do you know what I mean?

1000

00:44:53,265 --> 00:44:57,085

Hugh: Yeah, no, that's been shocking

to me that, um, the reaction and

1001

00:44:57,085 --> 00:44:59,995

the reaction of course hasn't been

to actually be there on the bench.

1002

00:45:00,325 --> 00:45:03,385

It's been to block accounts,

so we can't see things.

1003

00:45:03,415 --> 00:45:03,505

Yeah.

1004

00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:03,680

Yeah.

1005

00:45:03,745 --> 00:45:08,735

Or, you know, some, somehow

the audio vis video service I.

1006

00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:11,960

Slows down to a crawl.

1007

00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:12,020

Yeah.

1008

00:45:12,050 --> 00:45:14,480

To, we're getting copies

of things so we can watch.

1009

00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,010

You know, and I, I don't know, I,

I, I'm less willing to just sort

1010

00:45:18,010 --> 00:45:19,660

of speculate on why those things.

1011

00:45:19,665 --> 00:45:24,850

I, I, I, I'm more comfortable raising

the questions, but I'm super comfortable

1012

00:45:24,850 --> 00:45:26,440

speaking out on things that I can see.

1013

00:45:26,445 --> 00:45:26,595

Christine: Mm-hmm.

1014

00:45:26,895 --> 00:45:32,110

Hugh: And the great thing about

court in Kentucky is it is recorded.

1015

00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:36,670

The public can see it unless it's a,

you know, confidential case, which

1016

00:45:36,670 --> 00:45:40,720

we're not gonna be showing confidential

things that we're not allowed access to.

1017

00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,430

But the things that I talk about that

are happening are right there in video.

1018

00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:45,790

Right.

1019

00:45:45,790 --> 00:45:51,040

You know, if you want to hate on me

for, for basically narrating something

1020

00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,510

that you could go watch yourself.

1021

00:45:53,290 --> 00:45:53,500

Yeah.

1022

00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:54,250

Bring it on.

1023

00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:54,370

Right.

1024

00:45:54,370 --> 00:45:58,240

But I, I, you know, and if I'm factually

incorrect about something, I'll

1025

00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:00,550

absolutely own it and, and correct it.

1026

00:46:00,550 --> 00:46:04,650

But the things that, have brought me

into this position to want to talk

1027

00:46:04,650 --> 00:46:08,400

about it, or the things I've actually

seen, the things that I have probably

1028

00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,920

hundreds of hours or at least hundreds

of hours of video of, because when I

1029

00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,200

practiced, I kept video of my cases.

1030

00:46:15,215 --> 00:46:15,835

See, I didn't do that.

1031

00:46:15,835 --> 00:46:17,240

We needed it for appeal.

1032

00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:17,450

I

1033

00:46:17,450 --> 00:46:17,660

Christine: didn't

1034

00:46:17,660 --> 00:46:17,990

Hugh: do that.

1035

00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:23,660

I was so used to, you know, you

come out of the case, you know, your

1036

00:46:23,660 --> 00:46:25,340

evidence backwards and forwards.

1037

00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,070

I would keep all of my

hearing binders in order.

1038

00:46:28,070 --> 00:46:31,940

I would have all of my stuff labeled

because it would be months and months

1039

00:46:31,940 --> 00:46:33,920

and months before you get a, an order.

1040

00:46:33,950 --> 00:46:34,040

Mm-hmm.

1041

00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:36,650

And once you're reading that

order, you might have had

1042

00:46:36,860 --> 00:46:38,630

50 different court hearings.

1043

00:46:38,690 --> 00:46:38,960

Yeah.

1044

00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:41,450

And you, you're not going to

remember, oh, did we present that

1045

00:46:41,450 --> 00:46:42,590

evidence or who presented that?

1046

00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:45,800

And I wanted to have it,

but also I wanted the video.

1047

00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,330

And in certain cases where, um, we had a

client of means that would, would allow

1048

00:46:50,330 --> 00:46:54,920

us to, to, uh, take these measures, we

would have the, the hearing transcribed.

1049

00:46:55,385 --> 00:46:57,335

And it would name the speakers and

you see what the judge said and

1050

00:46:57,335 --> 00:47:00,095

you'd see when evidence went in

and it would, we would have our

1051

00:47:00,095 --> 00:47:01,655

exhibits there with the transcript.

1052

00:47:01,655 --> 00:47:04,295

So when the order came out,

I could look through and say,

1053

00:47:04,295 --> 00:47:05,405

well that's absolutely wrong.

1054

00:47:05,405 --> 00:47:06,455

That's absolutely wrong.

1055

00:47:06,455 --> 00:47:07,595

Nobody presented that.

1056

00:47:07,595 --> 00:47:08,645

That's not even the wrong name.

1057

00:47:08,705 --> 00:47:10,295

That's not even the

right name of the person.

1058

00:47:10,295 --> 00:47:12,005

That's not an address

that these parties own.

1059

00:47:12,215 --> 00:47:16,655

I could look through and just find

sort of the silliness there or you

1060

00:47:16,655 --> 00:47:20,735

know, find the things where, you know,

it would completely misquote someone.

1061

00:47:20,735 --> 00:47:21,935

Well, so-and-so said this.

1062

00:47:21,935 --> 00:47:24,560

I'm like, actually no, it was the other

side's mother that said, you know, really?

1063

00:47:24,605 --> 00:47:27,215

And I could go through and look

at that and I could attack it.

1064

00:47:27,215 --> 00:47:27,395

And

1065

00:47:27,605 --> 00:47:29,645

Christine: I get a lot of

complaints that that's happening.

1066

00:47:29,705 --> 00:47:30,995

Like a lot that's happening.

1067

00:47:30,995 --> 00:47:33,935

I've never seen it like, well, I have

seen it in two of the cases that have

1068

00:47:33,935 --> 00:47:36,305

been sent to me, but that is crazy.

1069

00:47:36,305 --> 00:47:37,775

So you saw that during your practice?

1070

00:47:38,435 --> 00:47:39,155

Hugh: All the time.

1071

00:47:39,245 --> 00:47:39,515

Christine: Oh my goodness.

1072

00:47:39,635 --> 00:47:40,655

But so one of the

1073

00:47:40,655 --> 00:47:42,695

Hugh: things that made the most,

the biggest impression of me that

1074

00:47:42,695 --> 00:47:45,035

differentiated one court from

another was how they handled it

1075

00:47:45,035 --> 00:47:46,115

when you pointed those things out.

1076

00:47:46,115 --> 00:47:46,235

Truth.

1077

00:47:46,565 --> 00:47:51,125

So the ones that, you know, I would file

something and I would ask for a correction

1078

00:47:51,125 --> 00:47:54,455

59, depending on the type of order it was.

1079

00:47:54,455 --> 00:47:58,375

If it was a final order, we, the

lawyers have a remedy that within

1080

00:47:58,375 --> 00:48:02,485

10 days you can file a motion to

correct errors of fact or law.

1081

00:48:03,535 --> 00:48:07,555

And I would point out just incorrect

factual findings and I would point

1082

00:48:07,555 --> 00:48:11,395

exactly to the exhibit and where it

was on the record, which you can't

1083

00:48:11,395 --> 00:48:14,275

do in 10 days if you don't have that

transcription or anything like that.

1084

00:48:14,275 --> 00:48:15,235

And that was wonderful.

1085

00:48:15,835 --> 00:48:20,275

Generally it's, uh, for whatever reason,

very much looked down upon filing

1086

00:48:20,275 --> 00:48:22,795

59 oh fives or motions to correct.

1087

00:48:22,795 --> 00:48:24,985

And earlier in my career, if

you did it, people would just.

1088

00:48:25,495 --> 00:48:28,195

Were blown away that you would

file a motion to correct a judge.

1089

00:48:28,195 --> 00:48:33,175

Now, the 10 day rule made it almost

impossible to file a really good one.

1090

00:48:33,175 --> 00:48:33,235

Yeah.

1091

00:48:33,415 --> 00:48:35,575

'cause you couldn't have

gotten a transcript or anything

1092

00:48:35,575 --> 00:48:37,075

back, back 20 years ago.

1093

00:48:37,375 --> 00:48:42,235

But I would file it and some judges

would look and say, yeah, I really

1094

00:48:42,235 --> 00:48:43,645

need to get the orders out faster.

1095

00:48:43,645 --> 00:48:44,665

I, I misremember that.

1096

00:48:44,665 --> 00:48:46,585

I'll go back and look at the tape

and I'll make that correction

1097

00:48:46,675 --> 00:48:49,585

and then just no ego behind it.

1098

00:48:49,585 --> 00:48:52,315

And they would go and then they

would make corrections and.

1099

00:48:53,260 --> 00:48:56,110

Oftentimes it would change a

finding in the case mm-hmm.

1100

00:48:56,350 --> 00:48:59,980

And change some sort of an outcome

if there was a calculation error.

1101

00:48:59,980 --> 00:49:03,940

That's some of the craziest things that

I was seeing in the last couple years

1102

00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:06,970

were just horrible calculation errors or,

1103

00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:10,420

Christine: oh, a judge not understanding

gross income versus net income.

1104

00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:12,190

I, that's like next level.

1105

00:49:12,190 --> 00:49:12,280

Oh yeah.

1106

00:49:12,340 --> 00:49:12,880

I think that's,

1107

00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:16,750

Hugh: that's been around for the whole 20

years I was practicing, but that's insane.

1108

00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,850

Or, not calculating some, the ordering

someone to pay maintenance, but then

1109

00:49:20,850 --> 00:49:23,400

calculating child support and not

including the maintenance income

1110

00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:24,720

in the child support calculation.

1111

00:49:25,305 --> 00:49:28,560

I mean, I saw that in, in the last

month of my practice and it's just,

1112

00:49:28,770 --> 00:49:34,050

you're talking about just 1 0 1, but

that was on a temporary order that you

1113

00:49:34,050 --> 00:49:39,060

can't do a 59 0 5 for, so, you know,

it's, it's, it's much harder to Correct.

1114

00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,560

But there were some judges

that you would, so I had one,

1115

00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:50,280

the petitioner in the case

who was not my client.

1116

00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:55,560

Had kept one of the cars, it was in

my client, the respondent's name.

1117

00:49:55,950 --> 00:49:58,650

She was driving it across

to Indiana over and over and

1118

00:49:58,650 --> 00:50:00,570

over, amassing a ton of tolls.

1119

00:50:00,780 --> 00:50:02,880

She was getting parking tickets

and all these things, and they

1120

00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,730

were just showing up at my guy's

door and he was having to pay them.

1121

00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:07,440

She wasn't paying the insurance.

1122

00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,000

And this was a divorce that for,

because of the court processes,

1123

00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:16,560

because of the, what the parties owed

owned, and some of the claims in the

1124

00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:17,880

case was taking a very long time.

1125

00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,000

So this was, this was just

becoming a big financial burden.

1126

00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:26,010

So I filed a motion that, you know, either

let my client keep the car that's in

1127

00:50:26,010 --> 00:50:31,500

his name and switch, or just make the,

the petitioner pay for the bills that

1128

00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:33,060

she's running up while driving this car.

1129

00:50:33,065 --> 00:50:33,265

Yeah,

1130

00:50:33,265 --> 00:50:33,425

Christine: yeah,

1131

00:50:33,780 --> 00:50:33,840

Hugh: yeah.

1132

00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,150

And so the judge said, okay,

yeah, that makes sense.

1133

00:50:36,780 --> 00:50:41,490

Issues an order that says the respondent

has to pay for all of the things

1134

00:50:41,490 --> 00:50:42,870

that are incurred from this car.

1135

00:50:43,110 --> 00:50:44,610

Now it's the petitioner was driving it.

1136

00:50:44,940 --> 00:50:46,560

It was clearly like.

1137

00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:48,420

At the motion hour, it was clear.

1138

00:50:48,420 --> 00:50:50,040

The judge said, okay,

that actually makes sense.

1139

00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:51,720

If you're gonna drive the tolls,

you're gonna pay the toll.

1140

00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:51,780

Yeah.

1141

00:50:52,110 --> 00:50:55,290

In his order, the judge

swapped the parties.

1142

00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,640

So I filed a motion saying, would

you please correct this and swap it?

1143

00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:02,880

Opposing counsel and I had even

talked, you know, saying, oh yeah,

1144

00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:04,230

it's clearly just swapped the parties.

1145

00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:05,130

Oh no.

1146

00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,670

Judge was mad that I filed a motion

pointing out an error and not

1147

00:51:08,670 --> 00:51:13,450

only didn't change it, he doubled

down and made, uh, my client do

1148

00:51:13,450 --> 00:51:15,610

more than in the original order.

1149

00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:16,630

Christine: Can I guess the judge?

1150

00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:17,920

Hugh: Sure.

1151

00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:18,250

Christine: Gatewood.

1152

00:51:18,250 --> 00:51:18,310

Yeah,

1153

00:51:19,570 --> 00:51:21,310

Hugh: that would probably be accurate.

1154

00:51:22,810 --> 00:51:24,490

Christine: My goodness, there's

only one judge on the bench.

1155

00:51:24,490 --> 00:51:26,740

Well, there's only two male

judges, but there's only one male

1156

00:51:26,740 --> 00:51:27,850

judge that would double down.

1157

00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:31,180

Hugh: Yeah, and it was just like

you swapped the parties, but you

1158

00:51:31,180 --> 00:51:34,540

were angry at me at motion hour

and then decided to stick it to me

1159

00:51:34,540 --> 00:51:36,160

and really stuck it to my client.

1160

00:51:36,415 --> 00:51:39,715

And of course that's always

a fun conversation to have.

1161

00:51:39,715 --> 00:51:42,445

Oh, when you tell your client,

the judge clearly mixed this

1162

00:51:42,445 --> 00:51:43,825

up, I'll get it corrected.

1163

00:51:43,825 --> 00:51:44,545

Not a big deal.

1164

00:51:44,545 --> 00:51:45,775

There's a process for this.

1165

00:51:45,925 --> 00:51:48,565

Judges can always correct their orders

within a certain amount of time.

1166

00:51:48,565 --> 00:51:50,695

This is just so straightforward.

1167

00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:51,175

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1168

00:51:51,175 --> 00:51:54,775

And then by me bringing that

motion, uh, or, you know, I, you

1169

00:51:54,775 --> 00:51:56,125

know, I'm, I'm not the judge.

1170

00:51:56,125 --> 00:52:02,215

I don't know what, what made him angry,

but saying that this is not correct.

1171

00:52:02,215 --> 00:52:05,755

And then he just getting an

order that was much worse.

1172

00:52:05,845 --> 00:52:10,075

And then bringing up the fact that

you can't, you've, you've not,

1173

00:52:10,075 --> 00:52:11,695

you've not corrected something.

1174

00:52:11,845 --> 00:52:11,995

Yeah.

1175

00:52:11,995 --> 00:52:13,615

You've completely changed this order.

1176

00:52:13,615 --> 00:52:16,195

You've added some other things

in it now, which you can't do.

1177

00:52:16,405 --> 00:52:17,846

Then it just kept getting worse, spiral.

1178

00:52:17,851 --> 00:52:20,395

And finally the client just sort of

was like, leave it alone, because

1179

00:52:20,395 --> 00:52:21,835

he's just making it worse for me.

1180

00:52:22,105 --> 00:52:22,315

Well, and

1181

00:52:22,315 --> 00:52:25,765

Christine: then the other thing too with

that is like the notion of now you've

1182

00:52:25,765 --> 00:52:29,075

made this judge mad who is known for.

1183

00:52:29,900 --> 00:52:31,220

Being easily provoked.

1184

00:52:31,220 --> 00:52:35,240

I mean, I don't think that's controversial

to say, but now you have an the other side

1185

00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:38,780

that's winning on something they didn't

win on before and shouldn't have won on.

1186

00:52:38,780 --> 00:52:41,540

And their attorney was like, oh yeah,

obviously this is gonna get corrected,

1187

00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:44,600

but now that other party's not gonna wanna

settle 'cause they're like, we're gonna

1188

00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:45,920

win everything in front of the judge.

1189

00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:46,385

Hugh: That's exactly right.

1190

00:52:46,385 --> 00:52:46,625

Yeah.

1191

00:52:46,625 --> 00:52:46,745

Yeah.

1192

00:52:46,745 --> 00:52:48,530

And that's exactly what happens.

1193

00:52:48,530 --> 00:52:51,410

And I've had attorneys say, you

know, well, my client was willing

1194

00:52:51,410 --> 00:52:54,560

to settle until the judge ruled on

this, and now she thinks she has, or

1195

00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,200

he thinks he has a much better Yep.

1196

00:52:57,290 --> 00:52:59,060

Uh, chance at these other claims.

1197

00:52:59,090 --> 00:52:59,510

And

1198

00:52:59,510 --> 00:53:00,785

Christine: so the judges are

making their lives worse.

1199

00:53:00,785 --> 00:53:00,947

And I would

1200

00:53:00,952 --> 00:53:04,670

Hugh: say, I would understand that if

the judge if the, if the ruling that

1201

00:53:04,670 --> 00:53:06,320

makes them feel that way was correct.

1202

00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:06,920

Christine: Right, right,

1203

00:53:06,925 --> 00:53:07,065

Hugh: right.

1204

00:53:07,125 --> 00:53:10,670

But, and, and the, you know, to their

credit, most of the time opposing

1205

00:53:10,670 --> 00:53:13,370

counsel in those conversations

has said, oh, I, I get that.

1206

00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:14,570

But it is what it is.

1207

00:53:14,575 --> 00:53:14,625

Mm-hmm.

1208

00:53:14,705 --> 00:53:17,660

The judge has now made them feel

like, emboldened they're going to win.

1209

00:53:17,660 --> 00:53:21,065

And, and we're not gonna, we're not gonna

settle this case time and bold them to

1210

00:53:21,065 --> 00:53:23,540

Christine: shop at the target in

New Albany probably every day.

1211

00:53:23,780 --> 00:53:24,230

What.

1212

00:53:24,755 --> 00:53:27,575

Target, well, to go to New Albany,

to that new target or whatever.

1213

00:53:28,085 --> 00:53:29,045

Oh, to go to bridge To go back and forth.

1214

00:53:29,045 --> 00:53:29,225

Yeah.

1215

00:53:29,225 --> 00:53:30,125

And not pay the Charles.

1216

00:53:30,125 --> 00:53:30,395

Yeah.

1217

00:53:30,605 --> 00:53:30,905

Gosh.

1218

00:53:31,025 --> 00:53:31,685

Oh my gosh.

1219

00:53:31,815 --> 00:53:37,395

And then so I'll say today's Thursday,

I've probably talked to 15, maybe 20

1220

00:53:37,395 --> 00:53:39,495

lawyers this week, which is a high week.

1221

00:53:39,495 --> 00:53:42,615

I mean, I usually talk, I've got

my like group of people, but I'm

1222

00:53:42,615 --> 00:53:44,565

starting to get more and more

and more attorneys reached out.

1223

00:53:44,565 --> 00:53:47,685

But I did have one attorney reach out

to me and say partic in particular,

1224

00:53:47,685 --> 00:53:52,065

I made a video probably about six

months ago that said Brian Gatewood

1225

00:53:52,375 --> 00:53:54,295

paid a lot of money to get that job.

1226

00:53:54,325 --> 00:53:59,675

I mean, he, he paid his husband works for

Purnell Sausage and you know, millionaire,

1227

00:53:59,675 --> 00:54:01,055

millionaire, blah, blah, blah.

1228

00:54:01,265 --> 00:54:02,165

But he hates it.

1229

00:54:02,165 --> 00:54:03,185

He seems like he hates it.

1230

00:54:03,185 --> 00:54:05,135

And this lawyer called me

up and said, that's the most

1231

00:54:05,135 --> 00:54:06,665

accurate video you've done.

1232

00:54:06,975 --> 00:54:08,985

And you've done a lot of accurate

videos and some of the shit

1233

00:54:08,985 --> 00:54:09,915

you say I don't agree with.

1234

00:54:09,915 --> 00:54:14,535

And, but it seems that every single time

he's on the bench, he's angry to be there.

1235

00:54:14,625 --> 00:54:14,775

Oh yeah.

1236

00:54:15,135 --> 00:54:18,555

Uh, and I do think that's

something that, you know.

1237

00:54:18,735 --> 00:54:23,635

I wish he would realize if he did want

this position, that maybe he sh that's

1238

00:54:23,695 --> 00:54:27,655

the what he is like portraying to people

and the people that will vote for him.

1239

00:54:27,655 --> 00:54:31,045

And maybe he'll just realize, Hey, you

know, I would like to be, I would like

1240

00:54:31,045 --> 00:54:33,865

to present myself differently, you know,

and that's in his hands, or do something

1241

00:54:33,865 --> 00:54:34,705

Hugh: different for a living.

1242

00:54:35,755 --> 00:54:38,755

I mean, we, for one, for a period

of time, we had two judges who

1243

00:54:38,755 --> 00:54:40,195

just clearly hated their job.

1244

00:54:40,375 --> 00:54:41,965

At least that was the

impression that I got.

1245

00:54:41,965 --> 00:54:44,605

I was like, either they hate

me or they hate their job.

1246

00:54:44,845 --> 00:54:48,775

And one of them at least, was like very

friendly with me, always like really

1247

00:54:48,775 --> 00:54:52,685

cool with me outside of the court and

who had been on the bench, in a different

1248

00:54:52,685 --> 00:54:57,215

court and was always, you know, you know,

always just acted very differently and

1249

00:54:57,215 --> 00:55:00,785

was, was super pleasant to be in front

of and got on the family court bench.

1250

00:55:00,785 --> 00:55:03,545

It just, just acted like they hated it.

1251

00:55:03,965 --> 00:55:07,235

And I thought, I don't think

it's me in that circumstance.

1252

00:55:07,235 --> 00:55:07,560

No, no, no.

1253

00:55:07,565 --> 00:55:07,745

Yeah, yeah.

1254

00:55:07,745 --> 00:55:08,765

Maybe they ate their job.

1255

00:55:08,765 --> 00:55:12,215

I, with Gatewood, I could never tell

because I, I had it out with him on one.

1256

00:55:12,830 --> 00:55:17,240

One case where he threatened to take

my client's child then and there

1257

00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:19,910

while we were sitting there, if I

didn't remand something in a different

1258

00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:21,530

action that was not in his court.

1259

00:55:22,010 --> 00:55:24,860

And I called him out on it and

tried to remove him from the case.

1260

00:55:24,860 --> 00:55:27,530

And, and, uh, I, I think so.

1261

00:55:27,530 --> 00:55:27,531

Yeah.

1262

00:55:27,536 --> 00:55:28,345

He's got it out for you probably.

1263

00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:28,910

Yeah.

1264

00:55:28,910 --> 00:55:33,080

Well, I, I, I, it was months

before I, he would make eye

1265

00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:34,280

contact with me at a hearing.

1266

00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,470

He would not even look

over at, at my table.

1267

00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:40,400

My client would be talking and he would

be looking in some other direction.

1268

00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:41,990

It was just kind of, kind of strange.

1269

00:55:42,110 --> 00:55:43,700

Christine: Well, it's

like beyond like a child.

1270

00:55:43,700 --> 00:55:45,080

And we have a lot of that in family court.

1271

00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,720

See, this is how we get on our

tangents and then we don't get to

1272

00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:49,310

hear any of the fun little comments.

1273

00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:55,190

Um, but yesterday, so we did get a lot

of comments about our, um, the public

1274

00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:59,030

is loving the, going to court and

seeing how many judges are working.

1275

00:55:59,420 --> 00:56:00,620

They are sending comments.

1276

00:56:00,650 --> 00:56:04,040

Uh, maybe they were having

a long three martini lunch.

1277

00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:04,790

Hugh: Oh Lord,

1278

00:56:04,850 --> 00:56:06,440

Christine: can you drink

three martinis at one set?

1279

00:56:08,030 --> 00:56:08,510

Hugh: What do you mean?

1280

00:56:08,510 --> 00:56:08,840

Me personally?

1281

00:56:09,245 --> 00:56:09,560

Like if I had like, in

1282

00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,180

Christine: one setting,

like three martinis,

1283

00:56:11,330 --> 00:56:13,251

Hugh: oh, I could easily

drink three martinis, dude.

1284

00:56:13,460 --> 00:56:13,880

I would buy it.

1285

00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,770

Probably be a much more

entertaining podcast.

1286

00:56:15,860 --> 00:56:16,280

Christine: Oh my gosh.

1287

00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,790

Well, actually I love a good vesper,

but I mean, I would be drunk.

1288

00:56:19,790 --> 00:56:20,090

Drunk.

1289

00:56:20,090 --> 00:56:21,650

I would if I had three

martini, like drunk, drunk.

1290

00:56:21,740 --> 00:56:22,520

Hugh: Oh, I would be too.

1291

00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:23,255

I, yeah.

1292

00:56:23,255 --> 00:56:24,425

I'm ashamed to say help.

1293

00:56:24,605 --> 00:56:26,160

How sick That would probably make me.

1294

00:56:26,615 --> 00:56:26,975

Christine: Oh no.

1295

00:56:26,975 --> 00:56:28,775

I'm just like, but I

guess that was old school.

1296

00:56:29,005 --> 00:56:30,445

Hugh: That's just straight up alcohol.

1297

00:56:30,445 --> 00:56:32,485

That's just like alcohol in a glass,

1298

00:56:32,485 --> 00:56:32,725

Christine: dude.

1299

00:56:32,725 --> 00:56:36,755

And I, I mean, I love Mia Vesper,

getting paid and not working.

1300

00:56:36,755 --> 00:56:40,115

I wanna find my little buddy that

just not happy with what we're doing.

1301

00:56:40,115 --> 00:56:40,955

Clap, clap, clap.

1302

00:56:40,955 --> 00:56:41,975

I love what you're doing.

1303

00:56:41,975 --> 00:56:44,495

This is why they don't have

time to look at evidence because

1304

00:56:44,495 --> 00:56:46,055

they're at their vacation home.

1305

00:56:46,685 --> 00:56:47,555

What do you think about that?

1306

00:56:48,095 --> 00:56:48,815

Hugh: I don't know.

1307

00:56:48,815 --> 00:56:53,255

I mean, I don't, I don't necessarily

think all of our judges are, you

1308

00:56:53,255 --> 00:56:57,155

know, I, I, I think there's this

public perception that judges are all.

1309

00:56:58,070 --> 00:57:01,640

You know, rich, snobby people

that with vacation homes and,

1310

00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:03,650

and some may be, some may not be.

1311

00:57:03,650 --> 00:57:04,970

They come from all walks of life.

1312

00:57:04,970 --> 00:57:09,290

They definitely a lot of different

backgrounds, uh, on the bench.

1313

00:57:09,290 --> 00:57:10,430

So I, I don't know.

1314

00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:11,360

Some may be,

1315

00:57:11,475 --> 00:57:11,765

Christine: yeah,

1316

00:57:12,020 --> 00:57:14,960

Hugh: some may be, some

may be sitting at home.

1317

00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:15,680

I don't, I don't know.

1318

00:57:15,980 --> 00:57:19,850

Christine: Then they schedule a hearing

months out at which time you've millions

1319

00:57:19,850 --> 00:57:23,030

of other problems with the opposing

party, but you can't bring them up

1320

00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:27,080

because they can't multitask to hear

different topics at the same time.

1321

00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:28,040

Now that's true.

1322

00:57:28,820 --> 00:57:31,280

Um, you wait months for a hearing

and then while you're waiting for

1323

00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,610

that hearing, there's so many, uh.

1324

00:57:35,210 --> 00:57:37,850

Other problems that come up and then

you gotta wait months for that hearing.

1325

00:57:38,090 --> 00:57:38,630

You know what I mean?

1326

00:57:38,900 --> 00:57:39,320

Hugh: Oh yeah.

1327

00:57:39,350 --> 00:57:39,620

No.

1328

00:57:39,620 --> 00:57:42,920

By the time you were, uh, as

a practitioner, it was, it was

1329

00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,980

quite regular that we would have

a hearing scheduled on one issue.

1330

00:57:46,310 --> 00:57:49,100

By the time we could get in front of

the court on that issue, something

1331

00:57:49,100 --> 00:57:53,420

more important came up and we agreed,

let, can we use this hearing to address

1332

00:57:53,450 --> 00:57:56,990

something more important and then get

a hearing later on for the thing that

1333

00:57:56,990 --> 00:58:00,170

we originally got the hearing for,

because just the passage of time.

1334

00:58:00,620 --> 00:58:03,800

Christine: And then I've got a huge

fan that, he comments on everything.

1335

00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:05,480

S-Y-B-A-U.

1336

00:58:05,570 --> 00:58:06,045

Do you know what that means?

1337

00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:09,530

Hugh: Shut your bitch ass up.

1338

00:58:10,010 --> 00:58:11,720

Christine: I did not

know I had to Google it.

1339

00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,640

I was like, and I even responded to him.

1340

00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:14,930

It's like, oh my God, I love you.

1341

00:58:14,930 --> 00:58:20,450

And I love that saying and like he,

I don't know, it's just like I do.

1342

00:58:20,570 --> 00:58:23,000

And then somebody said, which

I didn't know either, that it's

1343

00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:24,380

Burger's Week in Louisville.

1344

00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,270

So I did a guess PO like before

we did yesterday and did eight.

1345

00:58:28,510 --> 00:58:32,830

And this person won, I'm not sure if

it's burger's week in Louisville as well.

1346

00:58:32,830 --> 00:58:34,510

I'm gonna say eight judges on the bench.

1347

00:58:34,570 --> 00:58:37,090

So they won, maybe they were

out supporting the community.

1348

00:58:37,390 --> 00:58:37,750

I don't know.

1349

00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:38,230

Hugh: They said eight.

1350

00:58:38,770 --> 00:58:39,070

Christine: Eight.

1351

00:58:39,070 --> 00:58:39,460

Yeah.

1352

00:58:40,060 --> 00:58:42,250

Hugh: I saw the, on the

poll, 50% of people were.

1353

00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:43,930

Got the correct range?

1354

00:58:44,110 --> 00:58:44,830

Christine: Oh, I don't know.

1355

00:58:44,830 --> 00:58:45,460

I haven't even checked.

1356

00:58:45,460 --> 00:58:47,380

That was like only an

hour after I posted it.

1357

00:58:47,380 --> 00:58:48,700

See, I'm terrible at that.

1358

00:58:48,700 --> 00:58:48,880

Yeah.

1359

00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:49,785

It following I through, I

1360

00:58:49,785 --> 00:58:52,990

Hugh: think it was 50% had the range of

what, eight to 10 or something like that.

1361

00:58:52,990 --> 00:58:53,140

So

1362

00:58:53,140 --> 00:58:56,290

Christine: right now, and

this poll will expire soon.

1363

00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,690

Uh, 23% said zero to four.

1364

00:58:58,870 --> 00:59:00,340

53% were accurate.

1365

00:59:00,340 --> 00:59:06,800

Said four to 10, 17% said 10

to 25 and 7% said 25 to 39,

1366

00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:08,870

which honestly, I don't know.

1367

00:59:08,910 --> 00:59:13,830

One of my followers commented, I'd say, do

you think there's ever 25 courtrooms open?

1368

00:59:14,580 --> 00:59:14,670

Hugh: No.

1369

00:59:14,670 --> 00:59:14,910

Never.

1370

00:59:15,300 --> 00:59:15,720

Christine: I don't know.

1371

00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,550

Maybe, um, if you could time it right.

1372

00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,610

A Monday at 11 is what I would guess.

1373

00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,620

'cause you're gonna have, I

think you're gonna have all

1374

00:59:22,620 --> 00:59:24,600

10 family court judges really?

1375

00:59:24,690 --> 00:59:25,440

Hugh: Monday at 11.

1376

00:59:25,620 --> 00:59:26,070

Christine: Yeah.

1377

00:59:26,370 --> 00:59:28,950

Because that's gonna be, if

you were to do the timing right

1378

00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:30,360

with their paternity dockets.

1379

00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:32,730

Because the ones that don't have

that, although I don't know.

1380

00:59:33,090 --> 00:59:36,150

Hugh: And then, I mean, you would never

have circuit hearings unless it was

1381

00:59:36,150 --> 00:59:40,170

just Absolutely, you know, something

that had to be squeezed in because

1382

00:59:40,230 --> 00:59:42,030

nobody will schedule 'em on Monday.

1383

00:59:42,030 --> 00:59:43,890

'cause you might have a motion

hour in front of a different judge.

1384

00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:45,540

Christine: Oh, they're having, well

they're having some and they're

1385

00:59:45,540 --> 00:59:49,080

having the child support ones, uh,

with like the child support workers.

1386

00:59:49,140 --> 00:59:51,540

Well, but you're gonna have this,

you're gonna have the 13 circuit

1387

00:59:51,540 --> 00:59:54,510

judges there, I'd say on Monday

at 10, they're gonna all be there.

1388

00:59:55,350 --> 00:59:59,490

So that would be, I'd be willing to,

let's bet 23 of them, let's just say.

1389

00:59:59,820 --> 01:00:03,480

So then that all you would need to

get 25 would be three, uh, district.

1390

01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,370

And I'd say there would be

the six courtrooms open.

1391

01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:05,670

Okay.

1392

01:00:05,670 --> 01:00:06,810

You said 25?

1393

01:00:07,890 --> 01:00:08,580

Well, that's 23

1394

01:00:08,580 --> 01:00:09,090

Hugh: plus six.

1395

01:00:09,095 --> 01:00:09,225

Okay.

1396

01:00:09,230 --> 01:00:09,480

Okay.

1397

01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:10,800

I'll, I will 29.

1398

01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:11,880

I'll take you up on that.

1399

01:00:12,030 --> 01:00:12,960

So Monday at 11.

1400

01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,240

So my track record sucks.

1401

01:00:15,330 --> 01:00:15,960

At this point.

1402

01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,840

I need to redeem myself, but I

think that's a good, I think that's,

1403

01:00:19,665 --> 01:00:22,260

I, I think 23 is pie in the sky.

1404

01:00:22,335 --> 01:00:22,625

Christine: Okay.

1405

01:00:22,625 --> 01:00:23,705

Well I think there'll be 25.

1406

01:00:23,970 --> 01:00:26,640

I think there'll be 25 courtrooms

open if we go Monday at 11.

1407

01:00:26,730 --> 01:00:28,740

Hugh: You 25, now you're going full 25.

1408

01:00:28,740 --> 01:00:29,040

Christine: Yep.

1409

01:00:30,075 --> 01:00:31,275

Hugh: And if you're wrong, if I'm wrong,

1410

01:00:31,275 --> 01:00:33,045

Christine: I'll owe you

a three martini lunch.

1411

01:00:33,255 --> 01:00:33,405

Oh Lord.

1412

01:00:33,405 --> 01:00:35,805

And then we could just come back to

court and see how that works out.

1413

01:00:36,015 --> 01:00:37,245

Hugh: Oh my Lord.

1414

01:00:37,630 --> 01:00:39,525

Why don't we just come

in here and hit record.

1415

01:00:40,365 --> 01:00:41,145

Christine: Oh my goodness.

1416

01:00:41,145 --> 01:00:41,565

Comedy

1417

01:00:41,565 --> 01:00:41,925

Hugh: gold.

1418

01:00:42,015 --> 01:00:42,375

Christine: Yes.

1419

01:00:42,375 --> 01:00:42,825

Literally.

1420

01:00:42,825 --> 01:00:46,245

Or it would just be like

sloppy and all the things would

1421

01:00:46,245 --> 01:00:48,645

Hugh: be just like, like, like

I'm going to lose all credibility

1422

01:00:48,645 --> 01:00:49,485

Christine: on everything.

1423

01:00:49,545 --> 01:00:51,135

Hugh: Wake me up on when

there's something to talk about.

1424

01:00:51,255 --> 01:00:51,855

Christine: Oh my goodness.

1425

01:00:51,855 --> 01:00:54,795

All right, y'all, judge e judge y.com.

1426

01:00:54,795 --> 01:00:55,905

We are working.

1427

01:00:55,905 --> 01:01:02,025

I'm hoping that by mid July we should

have maybe some updates about just like

1428

01:01:02,025 --> 01:01:03,885

a timeline for what the plan should be.

1429

01:01:03,885 --> 01:01:05,505

Does that sound about right?

1430

01:01:05,505 --> 01:01:06,285

To have an update?

1431

01:01:06,405 --> 01:01:06,555

Yep.

1432

01:01:06,765 --> 01:01:07,065

Awesome.

1433

01:01:07,065 --> 01:01:08,745

We appreciate y'all's love so much.

1434

01:01:08,745 --> 01:01:10,905

And make sure to S-Y-A-B-U.

1435

01:01:12,015 --> 01:01:12,016

Bye.

1436

01:01:12,021 --> 01:01:12,165

Bye./

1437

01:01:13,046 --> 01:01:13,526

Next call.

1438

01:01:13,526 --> 01:01:15,731

We need some justice, justice, justice.

1439

01:01:16,166 --> 01:01:17,546

And I wanna ring bells in public.

1440

01:01:17,906 --> 01:01:20,276

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

1441

01:01:20,336 --> 01:01:22,171

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

1442

01:01:22,371 --> 01:01:23,931

I To the fo Yeah.

1443

01:01:24,011 --> 01:01:27,651

I to the fo fo teaser.