Erin and Aaron practiced one of a journalist’s most important skills — interviewing — by asking questions about each other’s coverage of the 2025 Washington State Legislative Session. Erin talked about a bill that would require doctors to give patients increased information about pain management options before IUD procedures, and Aaron talked about fiscal notes and how they can be weaponized to kill important bills. Relevant reading:

• ‘Scissors, scissors’: Washington patients could soon have informed consent for IUD insertions, by Erin Sellers
• 20+ WA state bills to keep an eye on: Workers’ rights, protections for undocumented immigrants and queer kids, reproductive justice, voting access for incarcerated people, and a whole lot more this Washington legislative session, by the RANGE staff

Do you have questions about local government? Wondering who to complain to about an issue in your neighborhood? Wondering which agency governs certain things? Wondering why something is happening or how much it costs? Email us at freerange@kyrs.org with your questions, and we’ll try and answer them next week!

This is Free Range, a co publication, a

co production of KYRS and Range Media.

2

We're flying without Luke again today,

as he is in the throes of some business

3

strategizing, so today it's just me, Aaron

Hedge, and other Aaron Aaron Sellers.

4

Sup.

5

How you doing today, Sellers?

6

As I have said I think 30

times today, I am so tired.

7

I want to crawl in bed for a

nap and never get out, I wish I

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lived the life of a small cat.

9

I've heard you say it a couple

of times, sitting across the

10

table, hacking out stories.

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Yeah.

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I've been doing my least favorite

thing today, which is logistical

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stuff, where I've just been going into

stories and checking to make sure that,

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like, the links go to the right place

and it's formatted the correct way.

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None of the fun parts of journalism.

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There's lots of little ticky tacky

work that we have to do to get the

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stories ready to go up on the web, so.

18

Yeah.

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You're a hero for doing that work though.

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I don't like it either.

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Um, well today, uh, we're gonna

talk about some kind of a theme that

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we've been working on this week.

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Um, and that's some bills that

are currently making their way

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through the state legislature.

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They're currently in session over there,

and now is kind of a crucial time for

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those bills, or for a lot of these bills.

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They're in committees where if they're

not scheduled for, um, hearings, they

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might die, or they're passing through,

and they're, um, they're making progress,

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but a lot of, a lot of movement there.

30

Yeah, Friday is The first deadline for leg

sesh, so, uh, bills get introduced into a

31

committee of origin is what it's called,

and in order to move out of that committee

32

of origin, they have to be scheduled

for a hearing where they are read and

33

discussed, they have to be debated,

and then they have to be scheduled for

34

a vote to move out of that committee.

35

And so, if those kinds of things

aren't getting scheduled, it might

36

be an indicator that like your

favorite bill is going to die.

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And there's a lot of really, really

crucial stuff for, for, especially

38

for segments of the population

who don't get a lot of attention

39

in legislation all the time.

40

And I think we're going to talk about

two groups of people today that,

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um, that are parts of those groups.

42

So, uh, yeah, so, um, I think, I think

first the way we have, uh, like, like

43

eventually you're going to, you're

going to interview me about a story

44

that I'm working on, um, about a house.

45

Uh, specific slated bills is kind of

being gummed up in the legislature

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and, uh, but first I'm going to

interview you about a story that you

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wrote, published yesterday, right?

48

Uh, published the 18th, so.

49

A couple days ago.

50

Yeah, time has both been going so

fast and so slow at the same time.

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This is a, this is a women's health

care bill that's, it's one of those

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bills that, uh, You know, it's in

danger of, of tanking tomorrow.

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Um, if, if something doesn't

happen, if, if there's not a hearing

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scheduled for this bill, it will,

um, it will no longer be part of the

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legislative agenda in, in Olympia.

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Um, so yeah, uh, let's, let's talk

about, let's dive into that bill.

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It's a, it's a, um, it's a bill that

addresses a women's healthcare issue

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that I, as a cis dude, am very privileged

to have been able to ignore my whole

59

life, um, and so I'm really glad I, I

got to see the story before it went out

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and I, I learned a ton from it, just

about Uh, what women go through with,

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uh, this particular medical device that

couples use primarily for contraception.

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Um, Yeah, not to be, like, too

woke on Maine, but, um, this is,

63

yeah, something that anybody with

a uterus might end up needing.

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And also, not just couples.

65

You can use it if you are Um, and also

there's like some non reproduction

66

related uses for it because an IUD,

um, which is a intrauterine Uh, device,

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um, can also help with bad periods.

68

So I didn't really get into

this in my story because I had,

69

like, kind of a strict word cap.

70

I was trying to keep this one short.

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But for a lot of people, um, if they

have heavy monthly periods, an IUD can

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sort of stop your body from shedding

its uterine lining every month.

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So it can, you know, help you

not have so heavy of periods or

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help with those period cramps.

75

What can you talk about, uh, yeah,

like, like, I Obviously, you, you

76

did your research, um, and you have

a uterus, and you, um, you, uh, know

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a lot more about this than I do.

78

Can you describe how an intrauterine

device, or IUD, is different from

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other kinds of contraception, uh,

and what's good about them, what,

80

what, what makes them attractive

for, for people to want to use?

81

Yeah.

82

So, um.

83

Um.

84

I mean, first of all, it has a couple,

there are two different kinds of IUDs.

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There's a hormonal and a non hormonal IUD.

86

Um, and an IUD, they're like

little, small, flexible.

87

They're kind of like, I want to

say like an inch or two long.

88

Um, and they have little wings

that give it that T shape.

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Uh, and, um, they just go right in through

the vagina and up the uterus and sort of

90

implant, um, implant up there, um, through

the vagina and the cervical opening, and

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then just sort of sit in your cervix.

92

Um, they, there's a lot of reasons

somebody might choose an IUD.

93

So, first of all, they can last

for between 3 and 10 years.

94

So it's kind of a more, like, semi

permanent option, as opposed to options

95

like the pill, or the patch, which is

like a patch that you stick on your

96

arm, or, um, there's something called

a ring, um, that also is implanted,

97

but you implant it yourself, and you

switch it out every week, and it's sort

98

of like a small, flexible ring, but

all of those require you to kind of

99

Remember to do things like switch out

your contraceptive device, or take a pill

100

every day at the same time every day.

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Um, and if you don't remember to

do that, it reduces the efficacy

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of that contraception method.

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Um, those varying levels of

hormones, sorry, I can sense that

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you have a follow up question.

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I, I was just thinking, and this just

popped into my head, I can imagine, I

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can imagine that there's something like

of a class dimension to this because if

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you're like a working, um, person and you

like, you, you want to use contraception,

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it's probably very difficult if you're,

if you're very busy and you have a lot

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to do, maybe taking care of kids or like,

you know, running between, um, Like, if

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you work multiple jobs, to be able to,

like, meet those, like, strict schedules

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of those other devices, so it's probably

a really attractive Yeah, and even, like,

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stuff, like, you have to, you know, get

refills at the pharmacy every so often,

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so things like making time in your day to

go to the pharmacy and get your refill,

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you have to fill it more often, you

might have, you know, depending on your

115

insurance situation, you might have a co

pay that you have to make every month, um

116

And there's also, I think, an interesting

disability component to this as well.

117

Um, one of the sources I interviewed

talked about, like, ADHD and, like,

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being really, really bad at remembering

to take a pill the same time every day.

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Um, like, it, it just wasn't something

that her brain was good at doing.

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Um, and so, for an IUD, it's like, you

go to one doctor's appointment, It gets

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implanted and you do not have to think

about contraception again for three to

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ten years in the best case scenario.

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Like of course, you know, for some

people it is not the best option.

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There are some people who reject it, um,

so they might have to go back and have a

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follow up appointment to get it taken out.

126

Um, but in general, it is one of those

things where you can sort of stick

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it in, leave it alone, and not have

to worry about your, um, whether or

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not you're going to get pregnant.

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Okay, so I interrupted you.

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What were you, what were

you, what were you gonna say?

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I don't remember because I

too am kind of a bouncer.

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Oh, a few reasons why this might, a

few reasons besides that why this might

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be the best contraceptive method for

people is that like for the patch and

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emergency contraception, so think like

Plan B pills, there is Like, they are

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less effective the higher your BMI is.

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So, for people who weigh a certain

amount, those two birth control

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methods get less and less effective.

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Um, also, hormone levels, I know this

was, like, not to get too personal

139

on the radio, but I was taking

another medication that kind of

140

messed with my hormone levels, and I

didn't want a birth control option.

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that also, um, was horm

like, very hormonal.

142

So the pill is like, you take it,

and there's sort of hormones running

143

through your whole body from that.

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It's like tricking your body into

thinking that it's pregnant, um, so

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that you are not I'm trying to think

of how to put this in like PG simple

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radio terms, but basically, the

hormones in birth control pills sort

147

of tell your brain, you're already

pregnant, don't let any more sperm in.

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Um, like prepare to have a baby, as

opposed to like, prepare to get pregnant.

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Uh, and so that can kind of make your

brain run haywire in a couple ways.

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And so for people who might want

lower hormonal or no hormonal options,

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the IUD is localized or you can get

a copper IUD where it's made out of

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copper and that has no hormones at

all but is still a pretty effective.

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way to not, um, get pregnant.

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So I'm really trying so hard.

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That was really good.

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So basically, like, rather than

altering your entire body chemistry,

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you can just like localize it to

one, like your uterus, your cervix.

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Yeah.

159

Yeah.

160

Okay.

161

So, so, I mean, it's, it sounds, it

sounds like a, like a very good, and

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it's, it's highly effective too, right?

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It is.

164

Yeah.

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It's, and I think a part of

that is because there are less

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things you can do that bring that

efficacy rate down, basically

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like you just, you leave it alone.

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It eliminates human error.

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Oh my gosh, that's such

a good way to put that.

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So, now we know what this device

is and what's good about it.

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Um, that doesn't make it perfect.

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What is, what's the problem with it?

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And why are, why are people like

me and even some women who've had

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IUDs unaware of these problems?

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Yeah, so, okay.

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So, it's an, it's a

procedure to get it put in.

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And, I was looking through medical

websites in researching this story

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and a lot of websites described,

uh, the procedure as taking just a

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few minutes and causing patients,

quote, highly variable discomfort.

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A lot of the language that was used

was around discomfort or cramping.

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It'll feel like a little pinch.

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Um, and so all of that language

that people are aware of is

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kind of a little bit Minimizing.

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It's, it's described as You

know, as maybe being a little

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uncomfortable for a couple of minutes.

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But, I, Which doesn't sound too bad,

especially in relation to the benefits.

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Exactly.

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And so I think when a lot of patients

are weighing that equation in their

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head, they're thinking like, Okay, five

to ten minutes of being like mildly to

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pretty uncomfortable, I can handle that.

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It's worth ten years of not

having to think about this.

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But, I, um, Interviewed three people

for my story, and then when my story

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came out, got a massive amount of, like,

public comments and feedback from people

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who described their own IUD insertions

or removals as extremely painful.

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Um, some of the words that were

used, the one that stuck with me

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the most was scissors, scissors.

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Um, a woman was describing to her friend

who was actually a state legislator,

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legislator, that the feeling of

having an IUD inserted felt like there

199

were scissors inside, um, her body.

200

And somebody else said it was 10 out

of 10 painful, another woman said it

201

was the highest level of pain she'd

ever experienced, and they went into

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the procedure thinking Like, okay,

this is going to take 10 minutes

203

and maybe be mildly uncomfortable.

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Um, and for one woman, it took 30 minutes,

and she was in, like, the highest level

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of pain she's ever been in for 30 minutes.

206

Um, and so the bill I wrote about was

proposed by Representative Amy Wallin,

207

and her friend was the one who described

the feeling as scissor scissors.

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Uh, She said that she was invited

as like a trusted confidant to

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go with this friend, saw how

traumatic the procedure was.

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Kind of as like moral support.

211

Yeah, you can bring somebody

with you in the room.

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I've, for transparency,

I've had an IUD insertion.

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They gave me the option to bring

somebody into the room with me.

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I brought a close friend and roommate who

just sort of sat with me and held my hand.

215

And it looked like Representative Wallin

was that person for a close family friend.

216

And, um, When she saw how long it took,

how painful it was, and the kind of

217

agony that her friend was in, she wrote

and proposed a bill that would require

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It would not require doctors to give

you any pain management options, but

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it would require a kind of informed

consent, where if you, as a patient,

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call up a doctor and ask to schedule

your IUD insertion or removal, they

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would have to tell you if there are

pain management options available.

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Because this doesn't actually

have to be this painful.

223

There's sort of a menu.

224

of options that some clinics provide,

like nitrous oxide or laughing gas.

225

Um, sometimes they'll do a

localized anesthetic in your cervix.

226

Um, there's one gynecologist who

even offers patients like Valium.

227

Um, there are.

228

pain management options, but not

every clinic or, um, primary care

229

facility has these options available.

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And sometimes they have the

options and they don't tell

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patients about the options.

232

So you wouldn't know

unless you knew to ask.

233

And this bill would require these

medical facilities to tell you what

234

options they can offer you so that you

have that informed consent of like,

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okay, do I want this procedure here?

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Do I want to go somewhere else that

maybe has more pain management options?

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Do I want this procedure at all?

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Like, what's the calculus here as opposed

to the calculus seeming really easy of

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mild discomfort, 10 minutes, and then you

get there and it's 30 minutes of the worst

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pain you've ever experienced in your life.

241

And they're like, take

a Tylenol afterwards.

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And one of the things that struck

me is, um, like, it's not just

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the 30 minutes for some women.

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Like the pain can last for, I

think I read somewhere like.

245

Days after.

246

Yeah, um, they, they do warn you

about like, or, or the sources

247

that I interviewed said that

they'd been warned that there

248

might be some cramping afterwards.

249

Um, but because, you know, people

with uteruses are usually accustomed

250

to having periods and having regular

cramping, and so they were all like,

251

well okay, like I know what that's

like, I can handle that for a couple

252

days, it won't be any different

than getting my period every month.

253

Um, But for most of them, it was

a lot more painful than that for a

254

couple of days after their insertion.

255

Um, one of your sources, and this,

I think, I think this illustrates,

256

like, how infuriating this problem is.

257

Um, one of, one of your, one of your

sources that you spoke with, uh, her, her

258

mother was, uh, an OBGYN, a gynecologist.

259

And, um, She had told her that she, to

expect to be uncomfortable, kind of this,

260

you know, euphemistic language, and, you

know, like, maybe she didn't know, but

261

she had this just awful experience, and

then, um, when she learned about those

262

options, like, and the example you used.

263

Telling her story was nitrous oxide

at Planned Parenthood, you say

264

it left her feeling quote unquote

totally furious And I feel like I

265

feel like I would probably feel the

same way if I had that experience.

266

Yeah, I mean I remember asking beforehand

like is there any I, I asked if there

267

were options available to me, and at

the time, I was told no, and a year

268

later And you're, you're extremely

proactive at asking questions, and

269

I, I could imagine a lot of women

wouldn't, wouldn't want to, like,

270

proactively, like, answer those questions.

271

Yeah, I think I was told to, like,

that I could take a couple of

272

ibuprofen beforehand, which I did.

273

I asked, um, this is

Washington's, actually I'm not

274

going to say this, never mind.

275

Um But I, I asked those questions

about my own health, and I was told

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what I thought the options were.

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And then a year later, that same clinic

posted that they were now offering

278

nitrous oxide to patients, which

they may not have had it at the time.

279

Or they may have, and they

just didn't think I'd need it.

280

I don't, I don't know.

281

But, I think this bill would eliminate

some of those uncertainties and questions.

282

And for patients who aren't as

familiar with the medical system,

283

or who aren't as familiar with the

potential options they can ask for.

284

Like, they'd be given a menu right off

the bat, and then they can pick from that,

285

or choose not to order off the menu at

this time, and go to a different place.

286

Um.

287

I think there's some other, I've been

having an argument on the internet

288

with somebody that I think is kind of

relevant that I wanted to bring up.

289

Yeah, yeah, talk about this argument.

290

Um, but while a lot of the, the

comments around this article have

291

been very, I don't know, like a lot of

people expressing that they feel seen

292

in this legislation, that they're so

glad that it's being brought forward,

293

and also frustration that, It even

has to be legislated that, that they

294

aren't being given these, this menu

of options without a law requiring it.

295

Um, but I've been arguing with

somebody on the internet who's like,

296

well, if your insertion took longer

than 10 minutes, then the doctor

297

didn't do their job correctly.

298

Um, and one of the sources I

interviewed said that her insertion

299

took a particularly long time.

300

Because of the shape of

her internal anatomy.

301

So, the insertion is kind of like

putting the device up a tunnel.

302

Um, again, I'm trying to figure out

how to put this in like PG euphemistic

303

radio friendly language, but it's sort

of like, like implanting the device.

304

up a tunnel, but her tunnel has a bend

in it, and so it just kept hitting

305

the wall in the bend, and because

it's a small, flexible device, it

306

was sort of hitting the wall and

bouncing off instead of hitting the

307

wall and continuing up the tunnel to

where it is supposed to sit and land.

308

And that made the experience incredibly

painful for her, and it just took forever.

309

Um.

310

Um.

311

And it wasn't necessarily that her

doctors had done anything wrong,

312

it was just that her internal

anatomy was harder to navigate.

313

She ended up getting her IUD removed when

it expired, and she knew how painful it

314

was, but for her this was still painful.

315

still the best reproductive

health care option and so she

316

wanted to get it inserted again.

317

She wanted a new one.

318

Um, this time she went to a

different clinic that offered

319

an ultrasound guided insertion.

320

So if you're familiar with an ultrasound,

it sort of shows doctors a picture

321

of what you're like a live time.

322

I mean video feed really of what

your internal anatomy looks like.

323

It's like you see it on movies all the

time with like when they, when they like.

324

Show, like, the baby on the screen

when they, like, um, Yeah, it's,

325

like, blue, and there's When an

expectant mother does a checkup.

326

But the same, the same procedure exists

for lots of different, uh, operations.

327

Yeah, and so, for her, they were able

to use that kind of live video feed to

328

get a look at what her internal anatomy

looked like, so that they could better

329

insert the device, and she said it was

still really painful, but it took five

330

minutes instead of thirty minutes.

331

And she was like, that is

definitely worth it to me.

332

And for her, that ultrasound guided

process was a pain management option.

333

Um, she didn't tell me specifically

what the name of her condition was.

334

Um, or if there was like a

label for why her internal

335

anatomy was shaped differently.

336

But I did some research on my own,

and it was probably that she has a

337

tilted uterus, which is a condition

that 25 percent of people with uteruses

338

have, um, where it's tilted either

kind of to the front or to the back.

339

And just that little tilt to it

can change the layout inside.

340

Um, again, euphemistic language.

341

So because of, because of

certain angles they have to do,

342

they have to like, you know.

343

They have to readjust.

344

It's not a straight shot

from point A to point B.

345

Uh, and so all of those things can,

it doesn't necessarily mean that

346

your doctor is doing a bad job.

347

It might just mean that your

internal anatomy looks differently.

348

Um, and having like an ultrasound guided

process as a pain management option

349

can mitigate some of those concerns.

350

I'm sorry if this is like, you know,

middle school, um, sex ed, I am so sorry.

351

You live in a society that needs it.

352

Yeah.

353

Okay, um, well I think, you know, we're,

we're, like, we're living, um, in a

354

time when women's health is at risk,

um, and when society is discouraged from

355

even discussing women's health issues.

356

Yeah.

357

And so I thought it was really important

that you, um, You pursued this story,

358

and it's, it's always impressive to

me how you, how you find sources, um,

359

and you referred to these women just

by their first names to protect their

360

medical privacy in your story, but can

you talk to me what, what it was like

361

approaching these women and, and, and

just like, Maybe, maybe reveal what

362

you can about, like, how you found

them and what the process was like.

363

Yeah, I mean, I got really lucky.

364

I found all of them through a call

to sources in our Friday newsletter.

365

I just posted that, um, I was working

on a story about a bill in State

366

Ledge and was looking for people who

had experienced either a painful IUD

367

insertion Or an IUD insertion with pain

management options offered to them.

368

Um, and I got like four or five

emails and um, I scheduled, tried

369

to schedule with all of them.

370

It fell through with one or two people.

371

One was my fault.

372

Um, but I was able to set up

phone calls with three people.

373

Um, and had also kind of Talked about

IUD insertions with a variety of friends

374

and, um, people I feel comfortable

with on background, but quoted three

375

people I'd never talked to before.

376

Um, and it is kind of hard

to have those conversations.

377

I think it's hard to call somebody on

the phone and be like, Tell me about

378

your very private medical history.

379

Tell me about this traumatic experience.

380

But I think by being pretty up front

with what I was looking for in my call to

381

sources, everybody who reached out knew

roughly what I was going to be asking

382

and was willing to share their stories.

383

And, um, yeah, I think that a couple of

them got You know, we're pretty emotional

384

talking about it, like the one you

mentioned who had been through two very

385

painful IUD insertions and then like two

years after her most recent one learned

386

from TikTok and Instagram that You can

ask for nitrous oxide or some patients

387

are given nitrous oxides to make that less

painful and She is somebody who ostensibly

388

Should be able to navigate the medical

system pretty well with a parent who is

389

an ob gyn So if if she didn't know about

that, there are so many other people who

390

don't unfortunately Um, today is Thursday,

we're coming to you live, and the bill

391

has been discussed, but it has, in

committee, but it has not been scheduled

392

for a vote in its committee of origin yet.

393

So if that doesn't happen by the end of

day tomorrow, this bill is going to die.

394

Um, the representative who proposed

it, Representative Amy Wallin, told me

395

that, uh, there were a couple a couple

factors in why this bill might not be

396

moving forward despite the fact that

she said a lot of young women have

397

reached out to her Being like thank you.

398

I had no idea about this Like this

is thank you so much for proposing

399

this but the chair of the committee

who decides who basically creates the

400

schedule for a committee like decides

if a bill is going to get heard or

401

voted on and when um I don't want to

make any assumptions about this person,

402

but he is a man, and she talked about

how hard it has been to explain to

403

men, male legislators specifically,

like why this bill is important, um,

404

why, you know, I think why, like, pain

management options should be required.

405

For, or like, listed.

406

Um, she joked about having to explain what

dilating the cervix was to legislators.

407

Um, and said that, you know, like, uh,

I think her quote, that I didn't end

408

up getting to include in my story, but

like, Oh, I'm an old school feminist.

409

I like making men uncomfortable.

410

But, That doesn't necessarily

translate to men caring enough

411

to, to advance this bill.

412

And she also said that, um,

there had been some lobbying from

413

healthcare lobbyists who didn't

want to be told how to do their job.

414

So they were pushing back against

this bill because they didn't want to

415

be told that you have to do X, Y, Z

when scheduling these appointments.

416

And I wasn't even saying that they have

to provide any kind of pain management

417

options, just that they have to.

418

Notify patients which options

are available at their clinic.

419

Kind of similar to how a lot of states are

telling, making abortion care providers

420

tell women that there are other options.

421

Yeah.

422

But just, that's kind of on the flip side

of the coin, so that one seems like it.

423

Is a little bit more

attractive to male legislators.

424

I'm making a lot of

assumptions there, but.

425

Yeah.

426

Um, so, you know, this bill, is

it, is it, is it risk of dying?

427

I don't think we ever

actually said the bill number.

428

Um, but if you're interested in

429

in the Washington State Legislature.

430

It's proposed by Representative

Amy Wallin of District 48.

431

Um.

432

And, yeah, this has kind of

been one of the, one of the

433

bills that we've been tracking.

434

I think we're gonna go to a brief

break, and when we come back, I'm going

435

to interview Erin Hedge about One of

the hottest topics around fiscal notes

436

and why you should care about them.

437

Alright, we are back.

438

This is Free Range.

439

Um, you're listening to Aaron and

Aaron Hedge because Luke's not here.

440

So, we just got done talking

about one bill moving through

441

the Washington State Senate.

442

state legislature that has to do with

reproductive care, and now we're going

443

to start talking about actually a series

of bills that are kind of interconnected

444

both by the population that they're

intended to serve and the thing that's

445

sort of holding them back maybe for

moving quickly through the legislature.

446

Do you think that's all accurate, Hedge?

447

Yeah, that sounds about right, um, and

it's, uh, it's These aren't the only

448

bills that are affecting this population.

449

You know, the population we're talking

about is incarcerated individuals.

450

Um, A lot of people don't know

that, you know, Washington State,

451

uh, spends about, they're spending

3 billion dollars this year.

452

this fiscal cycle on, of our taxpayer

money on their incarceration system.

453

I didn't even know that.

454

Can you say that louder

for the crowd in the back?

455

Yeah, yeah, about three billion dollars.

456

Um, and, uh, I think, I think often we're,

we're unaware that these populations

457

exist because we intentionally, like,

part of the nature of, uh, prison is

458

we sequester them away from society.

459

Um, And there's a prison out in

Airway Heights that is, that would

460

be affected by, by these bills.

461

Um, but I guess maybe I could give

a rundown of what the bills do and

462

then maybe what's, what's going on.

463

Yeah, how many bills are

we talking about here?

464

So I looked specifically at four

different bills that are currently

465

moving their way through the house.

466

Um, And, there's a lot of, there's a lot

of wonkiness involved, but they're all

467

aimed at trying to do a couple of things.

468

Um, make, just like, life more manageable

and humane for incarcerated people.

469

And, and make it so that, you know,

perhaps they can get out of prison

470

earlier than they currently do.

471

Um, And on, on the flip side of that,

uh, reduce the size of this, like,

472

pretty mammoth industry, which eats up

a lot of public money that could, you

473

know, instead be diverted to education

or health care or things that, you know,

474

we really need that, uh, you know, if we

had them, maybe we wouldn't need so much.

475

Would proactively also reduce the amount

of money we're spending on incarceration.

476

Um, so that's kind of like the

big picture of the bills, uh.

477

So, so one of these bills, uh,

478

I was particularly struck by.

479

Okay.

480

Yeah.

481

We'll start with, we'll

482

It basically, um.

483

It creates standards for, for putting,

uh, incarcerated people in, in, uh, in

484

a thing called, like, most popularly

known as solitary confinement, but

485

that's basically like, uh, uh, uh, uh,

an incarcerated person is removed from

486

the general prison population at their

institution and they're placed, um, in

487

just like, By themselves, for between 20

and 24 hours a day, um, and these, um,

488

these periods of time where they, where

they can go into solitary confinement

489

is, uh, between, you know, a day and

it, but it can last up to decades, which

490

is extremely So there's no cap on it?

491

No, uh, it's extremely psychologically

damaging to be in solitary

492

confinement for even weeks.

493

Um, I spoke with a person

who's formerly incarcerated.

494

She's now an activist.

495

Her name is Karen Pesey.

496

She does work for the League of Women

Voters advocating for prison reform.

497

And she, uh, she had been, she

served two and a half years, um, in

498

a state prison for, um, for theft.

499

And she, uh, she, she was She was

sequestered in solitary confinement,

500

she calls it the hole, which I think is

a pretty popular term that you'll see

501

in like movies, or that you'll hear in

movies, um, about, uh, you know, prisons.

502

And, she said Why was she sequestered?

503

Was this like a non violent offense?

504

So she was being, um, well, and she says,

according to her, she says that the prison

505

made a mis that they made a mistake.

506

Um, and They, what they did was, she

was, she was being, um, evaluated

507

for a work release, which is where,

um, incarcerated people can go out

508

into the community and earn money,

um, during their incarceration.

509

Um, and they're, it's, they're

heavily monitored, but you, you

510

get to go outside and you get to,

you get to perform like, you know.

511

Firefighting is one of those.

512

Like industries that relies on

work releases from yeah, exactly.

513

It's a it's a that's a that's a

huge industry especially in states

514

like in Western States, California,

Washington, um But she was, so part

515

of her evaluation was, uh, uh, urine

was, was like a urine analysis.

516

Um, and they, they said that they,

she said that they had cups that

517

they had never used before and

they didn't know how to read them.

518

And she said that they

read it as her being.

519

Um, positive for, for drugs, and

so obviously that's, that's a big

520

no no in a prison, and so they put

her in solitary confinement for two

521

weeks, and she, this was, um, But

whether it was a mistake or not, it

522

was still for a non violent offense.

523

Yep, and And so that's one of

the, one of the things that

524

the bill is trying to solve.

525

I'll get to that in a minute.

526

But, um, She said these two

weeks were just, this, this

527

was more than a decade ago.

528

It was more than 12 years ago.

529

And she said she still has flashbacks and,

like, psychological effects from having

530

been, um, placed in that environment for

a relatively short amount of time, um, and

531

so this bill, what it, what it does is,

um, it creates standards for putting, um,

532

people in, in, in solitary confinement,

and those standards are basically,

533

like, It has to be, uh, you know, it

has to be, you have to be endangering

534

the people, the, the other incarcerated

folks around you, um, in some way.

535

And there has to be, it has to

be provable, like, there has to

536

be a preponderance of evidence.

537

There's like an actual, like, process

that you go through to prove that you're

538

a danger, um, according to this bill.

539

Um, and it also, um, previous versions of

this bill, bill had asked the Department

540

of Corrections to, or, or, like, they

were going to force the Department of

541

Corrections to reduce the amount of time,

uh, That a person could be incarcerated

542

in solitary confinement to 15 days, and

this newer, watered down version of the

543

bill just asks them to evaluate policies

and procedures, to basically to try

544

harder to get the average down to 15 days.

545

Try really hard not to put

somebody in solitary confinement

546

for more than two weeks.

547

Solitary confinement is one of the

most expensive forms of incarceration.

548

Interesting.

549

And, and that's just because it's It's,

it requires more resources to, to monitor

550

folks who are, who are in there than it

does in the general prison population,

551

because you have to have guards for every

single person rather than like a group

552

of people, um, and you have to bring, you

have to bring food to a special place.

553

You have to, it's just requires

a lot more attention, so it's

554

really resource intensive.

555

So you'd think that, you know, the state

is in a budget deficit and is really

556

looking to crack down on things that are.

557

expensive, you'd think that this

would be a year in which, you know,

558

something that reduces the most

expensive form of incarceration would

559

be a no brainer for bipartisan support.

560

What's holding this back?

561

So, and that's, and that's kind of like

the center of my story is, you know,

562

all four of these bills have, um, these

documents attached to them called fiscal

563

notes, which is a very normal thing to

be attached to a piece of legislation.

564

Basically, all it is is it's a

statement by any agency or by the

565

legislature saying this is how much we

think this bill is going to cost us.

566

And so That tells the legislators this

is how much you need to allocate in

567

our budget when you budget for us.

568

It's kind of putting a price tag on it.

569

Like, if you want to buy this bill,

this is how much it's going to cost.

570

Yeah, essentially.

571

Um, and with this bill, the

Department of Corrections

572

attached a 7 million cost to it.

573

Um, they say that money is going

to hire dozens of new employees.

574

to reduce the amount of time incarcerated

people spend in solitary confinement.

575

Um, and so, But 7 million

wasn't the first estimate of

576

how much this would cost, right?

577

Yeah, and so this is, this is

another, um, there's all kinds of

578

twists and turns to this story.

579

So the, the, the bill sponsor, Strom

Peterson, um, representative, he's a,

580

he's a, um, he's a Democrat from Olympia.

581

Um, he told me that he had to talk

the DOC down from a 90 million

582

dollar fiscal note on this bill.

583

Um, and There wasn't really an explanation

for how they were able to drop it so

584

far, um, but they brought it down, uh,

more than, more than, I guess, tenfold.

585

I'm not sure if that's the

right term for this, but they

586

brought it down to seven million.

587

Uh, Representative Peterson still

feels like seven million is too

588

expensive for this bill, a bill that

is designed to reduce the costs of, um,

589

or reduce the amount of the most

expensive form of incarceration.

590

He doesn't understand why the D.

591

O.

592

C.

593

needs these new personnel.

594

Um, but, uh, so, so he's requested

clarification from the D.

595

O.

596

C.

597

about, you know, like, like,

why do you need this much money?

598

And he's, he's waiting on a

response for them, from them.

599

So how are these fiscal notes Calculated.

600

What kind of, you know, budgetary

evidence do you have to attach

601

to your fiscal estimate?

602

So, I, I talked to the DOC, and

this, this process is, it's somewhat

603

articulated in the fiscal note.

604

They're very, they're very

long and complex documents.

605

They, they provide like a

narrative analysis of the bill,

606

and they say the bill is going to

require us to do X, Y, Z things.

607

Um, but, um, Basically, there's

a Department of Corrections

608

spokesperson, Jim Kopriva, I

think I'm saying that name right.

609

I only spoke to him over email.

610

Um, he wrote to me, he said, um, generally

with fiscal notes, and I'm just quoting

611

from his statement, DOC assigns bill

analyses to our subject matter experts.

612

So it goes to somebody who knows

what the bill does, what the

613

different parts of the bill do.

614

They analyze the bill section by

section, compare them to existing law

615

or practice, and flag potential impacts.

616

The analyses are then reviewed by

divisional leadership and used by the

617

budget team to prepare the fiscal note.

618

Um, and then it goes before, uh, Once,

once an, an agency representative has,

619

has prepared the notes, it goes before

an agency reviewer, uh, somebody in

620

the same agency who will then approve

it, so like checking their work.

621

I noticed that in some of the fiscal

notes, the same person in the department

622

is both the preparer and the reviewer.

623

It's like, I checked my own math

and decided everything was fine.

624

Um, but then it goes before, uh, the

Office of Fiscal Management, which

625

is another Uh, executive agency in

the state that, um, is in charge

626

of, like, saying, saying, you know,

yeah, this, this work is correct.

627

Um, activist told me that, you know,

that office is kind of acts like a

628

rubber stamp and usually, usually if

it's fiscal notes just get approved.

629

Oh, okay.

630

Um.

631

And then, and then it's attached to

the bill, and it says, and then, and

632

then you can see, like, anybody can go

on the, the website that's dedicated

633

to the bill and click on, on the

little link that says, see fiscal

634

note, and bring up exactly what, what

they think the agencies, or what the

635

agencies think it's going to cost.

636

Um, and so average people can

just go check in and see these,

637

like, really, like, exorbitant,

uh, price tags on these bills.

638

And so that's the issue

with all four of these.

639

bills that are designed to make a

life a little better for incarcerated

640

people and also be reduce the cost

of incarcerating people is that.

641

large sticker prices or hefty fiscal

notes have been attached to all of them?

642

Well, specifically the reason, the

reason it's problematic is because,

643

as you mentioned, Washington is in a

10 billion, 12 billion budget deficit,

644

and, uh, lawmakers are not in the mood

to be approving huge expenditures in

645

the millions of dollars, um, and so

that makes it more likely that the

646

lawmakers are going to vote against

the bill and so the activist that I

647

talked to told me that this is kind of

648

it does one of two things so if the bill

were to get approved it's kind of like

649

a Christmas present to the agency they

get this this big new appropriation um

650

or it or it's intended to kill the bill

because the um these agencies don't they

651

they're They're really, they're full

of inertia, and they don't want to, you

652

know, they don't want to do two things.

653

They don't want to change, and they

don't want to, um, seed more of their

654

power to people on the losing end of the

spectrum, which is the prison population.

655

So the argument from activists is that,

like, since the Department of Corrections

656

gets to say, this is how much money

this proposal would cost us, that they

657

are attaching arbitrarily high sticker

prices to items that then just sort of

658

gets rubber stamped by the oversight

agency and now all of a sudden a bill

659

that might actually save the state money

and make life easier for incarcerated

660

people is sort of tied to an ankle

weight dragging it below the surface.

661

that says this cost 90 million,

whether that's true or not.

662

That's right.

663

And, um, and it's not that simple.

664

It's not just the agency like, you

know, representatives work with

665

agencies to, um, introduce sections of

the bill that would, that would make

666

the bill actually really expensive.

667

And that way, um, that way they

can, um, they can say like, Oh, look

668

at the, look at this part of the

bill that we have to comply with.

669

Um, And, yeah, yeah, it's just, it's

just a way of, like, making it likely

670

that, that the bill is going to tank.

671

And these bills, these particular

Playing politics through counting.

672

Yeah.

673

That's really interesting.

674

And these, and another interesting

part of it that I, that I haven't, um,

675

figured out a way to get into my piece

yet is, um, Washington doesn't do a thing

676

called, uh, dynamic budgeting, um, which

is Also, including the things that, uh,

677

that a bill is likely to save the state.

678

Um, so the, the part about, uh,

you know, limiting, um, Solitary

679

confinement, if that were to save, like,

if you were able to attach a dollar

680

figure to those savings, that would

never make it into the fiscal note.

681

So, so, when you So even if it might

outweigh, put potentially 7 million

682

in cost to implement, but save the

state, I don't know, 30 million

683

and have like a negative 23 million

price tag, that bit, that bit of

684

accounting is just not happening?

685

That's right, and, and it's So, so

essentially, they're just not telling

686

the full story, um, and there are other

bills that have, uh, other incarceration

687

bills that have, um, zero dollars on

the fiscal note from every department.

688

But we'll save the, like, our, our, that,

well, at least the people who propose the

689

bill feel like the bill is going to save

the state money, but, and they've done

690

their own analyses of it, but they cannot

attach that analysis to the bill because

691

Washington does not do dynamic budgeting.

692

So, are these kind of big sticker prices?

693

getting attached to bills about

incarceration, or is this happening across

694

the spectrum of bills being proposed?

695

Did you happen to have time

to look into that at all?

696

So I haven't, I haven't been

able to go into other bills.

697

It was It was a pretty intensive

process, just like learning how to

698

read the fiscal notes, because I've

never written about this before.

699

And getting to understand the

bills, um, and so I've only looked

700

at these four specific bills.

701

But I spoke with, uh, um, State

Senator Leonard Christian.

702

And he represents, like,

the Spokane Valley area?

703

Yeah, yeah, and he was in the House

of Representatives for a long time,

704

and he's a freshman senator now.

705

Um, But he said this, this was a

common practice, um, for all kinds of

706

bills, um, that, that state agencies

didn't want to comply with, or even,

707

you know, state industries, because

I imagine they can collude with each

708

other to, you know, try to like get

big fiscal notes placed on bills.

709

But yeah, he told me, um, in

a phone interview this morning

710

that this happens all the time.

711

It's not just incarceration, um.

712

But I also, on the flip side of

that, I, some of the activists that

713

I've spoken with, including some

incarcerated individuals who are,

714

people who are currently incarcerated,

said that these fiscal notes are kind

715

of a little bit of a new caliber.

716

They're a lot higher than, um, than

they have been in the past, and that's,

717

that's due to, you know, a number of

dynamics, but part of it is like there

718

was a ton of COVID funding coming to

state prisons, um, from the federal

719

government, and a lot of that funding

has dried up, and so now they have an

720

incentive to, to attach, uh, fiscal

notes to, to bills if they, if, either

721

if they don't want to change or they,

they want the money, you know, so yeah.

722

Yeah, I mean, I think the example that.

723

I have only had time to power skim your

story, but the thing that stuck out

724

to me the most was that the original

proposal of like, oh, this policy will

725

cost us 90 million dollars and then

the representative was like, really?

726

How?

727

And they responded, oh, actually,

it will be 7 million dollars.

728

Yeah, by a slickered wrist.

729

And that just sort of, like, kind of

flexibility in these, like, how do you

730

come up with How do you cut 83 million

dollars from, you know, an accounting

731

of how much something would cost?

732

That just kind of blew

my mind, that detail.

733

I think one of the, one of the things that

might speak to that is, um, there's, so

734

there's another bill, it's called House

735

to, what it does is it allows inmates, or

sorry, incarcerated individuals, inmates

736

is a little bit of a derogatory term, um,

uh, It allows incarcerated individuals to

737

buy technology out of their own pocket,

um, to access educational resources

738

so they can get a college degree.

739

Um, that's what the bill is

designed to do, it establishes

740

the right for them to do that.

741

It doesn't spend really any money.

742

The Department of Corrections attached

a 36, well an almost 37 million

743

fiscal note to that bill saying that

it needed to hire 103 new full time

744

employees between now and 2027 to

monitor the use of that technology.

745

So, so basically to watch them

use it even though the bill does

746

not require that monitoring.

747

Um.

748

And I don't know what, what it's like

in a prison, I've never been in one, um,

749

but I imagine there's reasons that the

DOC would want to do that monitoring.

750

But, um, Activist told me that that's

a ridiculous figure because, um,

751

the, like, there are currently lots

of employees at the DOC whose job

752

is to monitor those kinds of things.

753

Yeah.

754

And so they already have

the infrastructure for it.

755

I went to school, which is not prison,

but all of the computers on the school

756

had, like on school grounds, had this

sort of localized software that would

757

stop you from looking up any, you

know, banned terms or banned websites.

758

And I am willing to bet that because

I went to a very small school

759

district, that software did not cost

37 million or anything close to it.

760

And I can't see why something

similar wouldn't be applicable,

761

especially if incarcerated people.

762

Are being asked to buy the

devices out of their own pocket.

763

It's not like the cost of the devices

is going to cost the DOC anything.

764

It's just the making sure they

aren't doing inappropriate things

765

with the devices when they're

supposed to be getting degrees?

766

Yeah.

767

Yeah, essentially.

768

I mean, like, and, and I haven't heard,

I haven't heard a response back from

769

that specific question from the DOC, so

I don't, and I, and I, and I asked them

770

that question, um, I'm, I'm waiting for

them to get back to me, so I, I don't know

771

what they're gonna say to respond to that.

772

Um, all of the, all of these positions

are spelled out in the fiscal note.

773

They, they do have, they do have

a rationale for it, um, but the,

774

the, that I talked to really

are not buying that rationale.

775

Um, and I had, uh, Um, the, the, the

formerly incarcerated individual, uh,

776

that I talked about earlier, Karen Pesey,

she, um, she was talking about a, a

777

similar, a similar fiscal note that was

asking for a bunch of new employees for,

778

for, that was attached to another bill.

779

Um, that my story goes into.

780

Uh, she says, and this fiscal note

asks for 23 million to hire 87.

781

9 new employees.

782

Um, and she said, why do they need 87.

783

9 full time employees?

784

It's just because they picked a

number in the sky that would be

785

so high to try to kill the bill.

786

Um, and so they feel very strongly that

these are just These, these are really

787

just like intended to kill the bill.

788

Either it's like, you know, the lawmakers

are going to vote against it because

789

it's too expensive, or, you know.

790

If it, if it does pass and the DOC has

to, has to make these changes, at least

791

they get a big chunk of change out of it.

792

Alright, well, that has been our time.

793

This is your reminder that the Washington

State Legislature is in session right

794

now and will be until late April.

795

Which means there will be a lot of

bills moving through that are good,

796

bad, somewhere in between, um, it can

be really hard to stay up to date on

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that and also to know who to contact

and how, um, and hopefully we'll be

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running through some more of that with

you as legislative session continues.

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I'm Erin, that's Erin, and Free Range is

a weekly news and public affairs program

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presented by Range Media and produced

by Range Media and KYRS Community Radio.

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Have a good one, folks.