What do you do when everything you’ve built crumbles and the love of your life vanishes? Well, today, we dive deep into the heart of grief and discover how to transition from merely surviving to truly living again. Our guest, Dr. Tina Fronwald, has navigated the choppy waters of loss, from battling breast cancer to facing the unexpected death of her husband after 32 years of marriage. Instead of letting grief isolate her, she found purpose and a mission in helping others connect and heal amidst their sorrow. If you’ve ever felt the sting of loss or want to better support someone who has, this conversation is your ticket to understanding the journey of grief and the possibility of joy on the other side. So, grab your favorite drink, kick back, and let’s get into it!

Takeaways:

• Navigating the tumultuous waters of grief is a universal experience that transcends loss, be it a loved one or even personal health issues, and it reminds us all of our shared humanity.
• Dr. Tina's journey through profound grief led her not only to find healing but also to create a mission of supporting others facing similar trials, emphasizing that community is vital in the healing process.
• It's crucial to recognize that grief doesn't adhere to a timeline; the loss of a loved one lingers far beyond the initial mourning period, and we must allow ourselves and others to feel this ongoing pain.
• The conversation highlights the importance of being present for those grieving, proving that sometimes just showing up and listening can be the most meaningful support one can offer.

Links referenced in this episode:

• tinaformwall.com
• widowhoodrealtalkwithpina.com

What do you do when the life you've built, the future you planned, and the person you love most are suddenly gone?

How do you move from surviving grief to living again?

And if it's really possible to find hope, purpose and joy, even love after devastating loss, Today's guest has walked through breast cancer, the unexpected death of her husband of 32 years, and the overwhelming journey of widowhood.

Yet from those painful experiences, she discovered a mission.

Helping others find healing, connection, and in the midst of grief.

If you've experienced loss and know someone who has or simply want better understanding of how to walk alongside those who are grieving, this conversation is for you.

Stay with us today.

I'm honored to be welcome Dr. Tina Fronwald, a veteran speaker, grief advocate, founder of Widowhood real talk with Dr. Tina, and the author of a powerful book, the Five Widows Club.

After surviving breast cancer and later losing her husband, mark, unexpectedly after 32 years of marriage, Tina found herself navigating one of life's most difficult journeys, widowhood.

Rather than allowing grief to isolate her, she connected with older widows and widowers, found strength through faith and community, and eventually created a ministry and a movement dedicated to helping others heal.

Today, she helps people move beyond merely existing after loss and toward creating a life that love and they love again.

Dr. Tina, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Keith, I'm so glad to have you on and have this conversation.

I'm looking forward to you helping us walk through this.

I've had several people on recently talking about grief from different perspectives of it, and so I'm always love to.

That's one of my most popular podcasts because a lot of people deal with it and want to figure out how to manage that.

So thank you for coming on.

You're welcome.

It is a human experience.

I don't think we get to exist in this world without experiencing grief and grief not just limited to the loss of a loved one, but maybe our health or a lost job or financial pressure.

Anything that we're looking out to receive and we can no longer grasp it, that's grief.

Yeah, definitely.

So I'm gonna ask you my favorite question before we jump into some of the deeper part of this conversation.

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

What came to mind?

When I was a civil servant, I was an intern at Toby Hanna Army Depot for Mr. Frank Sardecky, and that man had been at that depot forever, and I was apprehensive about being with him and one of the other previous interns Said, just be quiet.

Sometimes you don't have to have all the answers.

And I have carried it from that moment to a lot of places in life.

Quiet and silence is golden.

As a pastor, one of the things that I had to experience early on was when you walk into a room with a family that's dealing with a lot of issues.

Pain, possible loss, grief, death, hospital stays.

I don't always have to have the perfect word, the perfect verse.

Sometimes you're right.

It's just.

Just your presence is all they really need.

They don't need you to say the perfect thing because they won't remember what you said most of the time anyway, unless you say something really stupid.

They will remember that stupid thing.

Stupid thing.

But they will remember anything other than he was there for us, he walked alongside us.

They won't remember the prayer you said, but they remember your presence and how you made them feel while you were there.

So, yeah, thank you.

And I found that that is so relevant in this grief journey.

People come in, like you said, trying to figure out, what do I say?

They're dead.

You can't fix it, but you can be present.

Yeah.

So your story just really stuck with me.

And we talked a little bit before the podcast about your military service.

Cancer, grief, ultimately discovering hope.

Looking back, what experience most prepared you for the challenges you would eventually face?

I would say two things.

I've realized I am naturally hardwired as a half glass, full person.

Not delusional, not super religious, and acting like the world isn't touching me.

But I do see things.

The perspective of what it could be and hope in any circumstance.

The second would be my relation with God, because the things that hit us in this world are beyond us.

And I have to have a strength that will last beyond the current circumstances.

Wow.

Yeah, that's so true.

So let's go back to 2017.

Your husband, Mark and you were on.

On vacation together, and he unexpectedly passed away.

Can you share what those first days and weeks were like and what helped you move forward?

Because I'm thinking that that had to be devastating.

You think?

Yeah, I know most people get stuck there and they just can't move beyond it.

Kind of walk us through what went through your mind, how you managed and navigated through those first couple days and weeks.

Hmm.

Total devastation.

I remember being at the end of the hallway when the medics were working on Mark and thinking, what?

This is how our story ends.

And then being at the hospital and him finally passing, being on the phone with our children and thinking, I have a lot of things I need to do.

I was so grateful for every conversation we had about what we wanted when one of us passed.

So I didn't have to guess or wonder if I was fulfilling what he wanted.

But it still had to be done.

My family and friends rallied.

My church family was on deck.

I didn't have to carry that weight along.

And that made it easier.

Yeah, so many people are who are not in a faith community or community at all.

That is a lonely feeling to be in that situation by yourself, trying to navigate.

Now what do I do when my entire world just falls apart and I.

Run across people now that is their situation.

And I didn't realize so many people had to be alone through this, which makes it even harder.

My first congregation, I'm 20 some years old, 24, 25, getting out of seminary.

And within the first six months, several older couples lost their spouse.

And as often happens, it was the man who died who left the woman there without her husband.

What I started recognizing and started seeing and a pattern was, is that these women were married to very good men who took care of everything for them.

And now all of a sudden, they are stuck with, what do I do now?

When he was the one who, who did this, he was the one who paid the bills, he was the one who took care of the house, he was the one who took care of the insurance.

I don't know how to function.

And I remember reading somewhere that if you don't get a widow or widower back into the life of community within a year, they don't typically survive.

And I sat there and going, I don't want to see all these people who are all of a sudden left behind to just give up on life.

So how do I come alongside them as a pastor?

Because at first, you know, care for the widows and orphans just for some reason just hit me.

I'm like, I gotta do something.

I just can't.

I just can't like, let them dangle out there by themselves.

And so, yeah, so talk to us a little bit about those people who don't have community.

How do you help them to regain or build maybe for the first time, community?

That is an excellent question.

It's something that a lot of people need to deal with.

Our podcast, just like this conversation you have is usually the gateway in which people learn about we exist or I do a TikTok live every Monday at 7pm Eastern time, and people are going like, we can talk about grief, which draws them into how do I become a part of this community, where do I connect?

What activities are you having, what events are taking place?

Thank you for providing a safe space.

But for some people, that type of connection may be overwhelming.

So another thing that we do is connect people with mental health professionals or grief coaches.

They may need that one on one space to be comfortable and to learn how to voice their pain.

Does that's a, I've heard that term before.

But for those who are going, well, that sounds interesting.

Do we just sit around and feel grief together?

Tell us kind of what a grief, you know, what a grief coach does.

That's going to be too much.

So let me.

So people hear about life coaches, they hear about a coach at a baseball team, for instance, a grief coach.

And I'm the widow and I feel like I, I actually have a therapist.

And the therapists, mental health professionals, they may be helping you unpack all the different things that happen in your life, the patterns and how you're dealing with grief now and understand who you are and all the things in your life that brought you to who you are.

But now you're thinking, I need to be goal oriented in my grief.

My husband cut the grass and I've never cut it before, like the example you use.

But the idea of doing it just blows my mind.

And so I had this discovery conversation with the, with the grief coach and they get to know me and they say, what are the goals?

What are your expectations?

What are your expectations and what you're trying to get to.

And one of the things may be cutting the grass and being able to sleep in my marital bed alone.

And so the coach is going to identify what are the things within me to help me know my own strength of good exist to be able to do this.

They're coaching me along to see within me to, to fulfill what my desires are.

Now after six months, if I haven't done that, I'm not being proactive, I'm not doing the different things and you're wasting your money.

You probably shouldn't be with the coach anymore.

The church may do a really good job is we're there for the family.

Soon as the death happens, maybe for the funeral, we come by for about a week or so, we'll provide some meals.

But three, four months past that, no one calls anymore and no one wants to mention the grieving person's name.

And so.

Cause we're like, well, we know how painful that must be just to talk about Mark.

So how do people support grieving people?

Because like when you stop mentioning your name, it's like, you just hope they don't.

They don't remember that they're not there anymore.

Like, what.

What do we do?

What are we doing wrong?

After the period of like, okay, now the shock of the loss is gone.

How do I continue to live life now that that person's not in my life anymore?

That is such an important question.

And it's a question we need.

They're dead.

They're dead for the year.

They're dead for the second year, the third year, the fourth year, they're dead.

Not talking about them is worse.

You don't think 32 years later, I don't know, Demontless was dead.

You don't think bringing up his name is going to make him more dead now than he was before.

Come to the reality.

It's about you being incomparable.

It's not your concern about the widow.

You're having to deal with your own mortality.

You're having to deal with people in your life that die.

And that is probably where you're really happy with going, I don't know what to do.

And when you come to that reality and say, it's not about me, it's about serving the person, you can approach it better.

And if it's somebody you really know, like, we're friends and my husband died, you were like, tina, are you okay with me talking about Mark?

And I would say, yes and say his name, share Mark stories of things that I never knew.

But if you care enough to be concerned, ask the question so you're not guessing what the church could do better.

The church is excellent with the Bible verses.

The church is excellent with grief there.

But do we as a church know how to deal with people that are manichized because they feel like God took their loved one?

Do we throw a Bible verse with them or say, you know what, their feelings are valid, let me let them talk it out.

And then comfort them.

Most of the time, they will come back to their relationship with God.

But if you turn them away and have this religious Persona about, this is how I'm supposed to be, we're falling short.

And actually, that is actually the work that I do with churches, places of work, talking about where employees or people of faith may have gotten stuck in their grief and helping the people that are supporting them understand how to walk through that process and guide them.

I remember there was a lady in my congregation whose daughter passed away and she was in her 20s, and she was obviously angry with God, but she was afraid to say she was angry at God.

So she was angry at everybody who represented God, so she was mad at the pastor.

She was really hard on me, and I couldn't figure out why until I heard her story.

And it dawned on me that she was terrified to yell at God for what she felt God took away from her.

And so she just punished everybody who wasn't God in place of that.

And I think you're right about it.

How do we get people to study, like, places like Lamentations and the Psalms where the psalmist is yelling at God asking God why?

Why this God?

And then you see the psalmist at the end of that psalm go, but you are my strength.

You are my fortress.

So it's like God's.

God's okay.

God's got a big enough shoulder for you to yell at him when you're mad.

And we don't know how to do honesty.

How many people do you know in the church that have on a mask of trying to look perfect or religious?

There is weight lifted when I can be honest with God and the people around me about my grief and my burden, and then I can lean into God being my strength.

But when I have to pretend about how I feel, everybody's going to get that word because it spills out one way or another.

I started out with my memoirs.

Then I start went to a book called how do you support a widow?

And I went to the bookstore, and it was like this type of book would be in the dusty corner in the back where you only go where you have to write a paper or your research, or you're the person grieving, looking for information.

And I was like, I want more than that.

And so I put it on hold.

And one day I was driving home from work and God dropped in my spirit.

The five widows club.

I was like, ooh, that sounds juicy.

That sounds like a book that I would want to read.

And this cover is Scream and Read Me.

And the ability to podcast 52 weeks a year for going on several years.

There's a lot of conversation, there's a lot of people in my head.

So the ability to create these five individual characters of a mix of all the different people I've met was easy.

There's a.

The ability to know that it may be a fiction, not novel, but these are real experience.

And receiving the feedback from widows or other men that have read the book that they now understand somebody in their life that was a widow or they feel seen.

I know we have something here.

I just.

I follow you on LinkedIn and I just saw you got a review on LinkedIn that really touched you.

You want to share that, that review to the audience?

Oh, my gosh.

I don't know.

Which one.

Was it from Michelle Farley?

I think so.

Yeah.

So your friends can be your hardest privilege because they know you.

Michelle and I have been friends for years.

When my husband died, she was there.

When I told her I wrote a book, she's like, you did what?

So I was bracing myself.

She's a lawyer.

She is very methodical.

She read that book.

She's like, tina, I didn't know you could do this.

And to really just read the book and understand the characters.

And being a lawyer, she deals with a lot of people who are grieving.

She's doing Wills Estates and things like that in Pennsylvania.

So she was able to read this book.

Not just my friend, but someone in the legal profession that is supporting the bereaved and having a better understanding of who these people are, what they do, what they've experienced, and the realness of it.

Every writer has goals in mind writing a book.

What are you hoping readers would experience emotionally when reading this book?

That is an excellent question.

I want them to know that their feelings are valid.

I want them to read this book and say, wow, this is not just me.

I'm not alone.

I'm the only person feeling like this.

Or for the person that is not a widow.

I want them to feel like, oh, these were real people.

Like, I know who these women are.

I read this story, and I want to know what karma is going to do on the next page or I want to know who Joyce is.

I want them to feel like after chapter two, they are immersed in here and they are connected to these people.

I always discovered in my life that there were things about writing it that surprised me that changed me.

Because every sermon I always write, I'm writing to myself first.

And you as the audience, get to just kind of go on this journey with me.

But I'm curious for you, what lessons about grief surprised you?

Reminded myself how hard this is, reminding myself, like, your husband died and you have still been living out here and how many people die and how bad we are as a society supporting people.

And then a book about death can bring hope.

It can bring community, encouragement, and knowing that it is not all lost.

Has there been a response to the book that surprised you in a negative way?

It's interesting you would say that.

I go on Amazon checking my reviews, and there was a review today that was three stars.

And I was like, oh, what did we do?

For three stars.

And so I read the review and the first thing they said was, I thought this was a murder mystery.

And so I go back on Amazon and I'm looking at how the book is represented.

I don't see anything that led them to believe it was a murder mystery.

But they did read the book, they knew all the characters.

And I was like, everybody?

Nobody.

That's too funny.

It was when I looked at it this morning, I was like, I know.

I was like, three stars.

No, it's not.

When you look at it.

No, because, like, that's my baby you're talking about, right?

Three stars.

So tell us about your podcast.

We, we kind of referenced it earlier.

But tell us a little bit about why you started the podcast.

What are your goals for the podcast?

I started that podcast because my current husband had a cousin who passed away and the widow posted on social media that it was his birthday.

And I was like, oh, I remember Mark first birthday.

And I reached out to her and we spoke till way past my bedtime.

And as I was going to the gate, I could hear God saying, what about what?

The next person.

Person.

I was like, no one is calling me this late.

But at the same time, my mom had a podcast and she was like 79.

And the ability to create a podcast with organic conferences, allowing other people to know that they are the third person in the room and to know this is real, this is how it looks.

This is not a glossed over version where it looks all cute, this is crying, this is horrible, this is hope.

And going back in between all of that.

And also mental health professionals, clergy, other people sharing how they've showed up and what they've done for people to see past their experience and connect with others.

You said something I really want to dig into a little more deeply and that is there is this pressure, and you just kind of referenced it just there a little bit, that this is pressure to move on after loss, just to get over it.

We gotta, we just gotta.

Especially from people who have, who are not in the grief with you.

They just go, you gotta move on.

You gotta, you gotta live your life.

How do you respond to that phrase?

For people who are like, but this is.

You don't get how hard this is to just like, move on.

First of all, you want to throw a punch, somebody, that's what's in your mind and you're going, that's not correct in society.

Let's be honest.

Usually people who have said that have not experienced a profound loss.

So they're speaking out of ignorance, depending on the person and how much connection to create a teachable motive.

I have personally never had someone tell me, you should move on.

I've had a lot of people tell me they've received that comment, and I think if someone told me that, I would ask them, what does move on look like to you?

Because we can all use the same words but define it differently.

Some people moving forward and moving on sounds like the same thing to them.

But to the griever, often moving on means moving past my life and leaving the person that died behind.

Moving forward means I've remarried.

I still carry my late husband's last name because I love him forever.

I can love my current husband and then cry on my late husband's birthday.

Mark is going to always be a part of mine.

We have two children.

They don't disappear because he died.

That's incorporated and folded into the life of who I am now.

And I think it's unfair because people that are divorced, they get to talk about their ex all the time.

They get to be mad.

They get to talk about it.

But someone who's a widow or widower or someone that's lost a child, people want to get all uncomfortable, like, you're not supposed to mention their name.

Their whole life exists.

Who I am is part of them existing.

I cannot explain myself if I had a child that died and I talk to people in this situation, they go.

When people ask them, how many children do they have?

Sometimes they shy away from mentioning the child is dead because that creates more.

More conversation, get uncomfortable with being comfortable.

So that leads me to my next question.

What do widows and widowers need most from family and friends during the first year following a loss?

At that funeral, you may have said, I'll be there for you whenever you need me.

Just call me.

Stop saying that.

And if you have said it and they ask you to do something, show up.

Don't tell me, oh, I'm busy at my child's soccer game or my husband needs me.

You gave me a promise and now I'm collecting on deliver.

Don't run away.

Don't stop texting me.

Don't stop reaching out.

My spouse died.

My life is disintegrating.

I am building this over from the bare bones.

How dare you leave me.

So your story does have another chapter to it.

You eventually found love again and remarried.

What would you say to someone who struggles with the idea that life and joy can exist after a loss like you had with Mark?

I would not equate joy to just Getting remarried.

I would equate Joy to understanding who you are now.

Maybe you had a dream that you were going to write a book one day.

Write the book.

Maybe you had the idea that you were going to roller skate on the boardwalk in Canada.

Buy the roller skate, go do it.

Joy to me was realizing I'm enough after Mark died because I was enough before I met him.

That was my basis, that was finding out like, remember one day I don't like the plates that we all folks and I've been eating them because he wanted them.

Him and his mom who brought those plates are dead.

I'm getting rid of them and I'm getting plates I like and sitting there in my kitchen so happy to eat off of these plates, that brought me joy.

And I think when we look at joy that way, that's a more painable, realistic and life giving to the person who is grieving.

I love that.

But if you choose the idea that you want to date or possibly to remarry, your vows that they when they died, you're not doing anything wrong.

Oftentimes people feel guilty or people saying, oh, you're dating too soon or you're dating too late.

Once again, let them be uncomfortable.

That's good.

So I'm going to give you some lightning round stuff, kind of little, little lighten the mood a little bit here.

So coffee or tea?

Coffee.

Morning person or night owl?

Am 4am prime.

By 9pm I am bobbing and not paying attention to anything you're saying.

See, that's that military one word that.

Describes hope God to me.

But I have learned that some people have weaponized God.

They have made it point out to people, you do this, God doesn't love you.

And that and that hurt.

I heard that.

I heard that for the person and I heard that for the person that misrepresented God to them and made it something of a weapon.

A favorite Bible verse or inspirational quote.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding.

In all your ways, acknowledge him like that one.

Beach or mountain?

My house.

So right now as we're speaking, I had a knee replacement surgery on June 30th.

So the idea of the beach and the loose terrain and trying to navigate with the hiking stick, that sounds scary when I'm still learning how to bend my knee.

So I'm going to stay in the house and keep doing my physical therapy.

Fair enough.

A daily habit that keeps you grounded,.

Having this knee replacement surgery.

I am allergic to over the counter medicine.

Cetaminophen aspirin, Tylenol, all those I cannot take.

I don't know if you ever seen the movie Hitch with Will Smith and he looks all blown up and stuff like that.

Yeah, that's what I look like if when I take a stetaminophen or over the counter medicine.

So that means your girls are opiate.

I am feeling happy during this surgery, but also I had me off schedule.

I wasn't able to get up, I wasn't able to exercise.

And I didn't realize how much that fed my soul.

And now I'm sort of in a place where I'm off the medication, trying to get back into the habit.

That has worked for me.

I need an exercise.

I need my devotional time.

I need time to be up when the world is still quiet and get my mind right.

Because it has been a struggle living in this world for the last 30 days where I have not been able to fulfill that.

And I saw how it was affecting me mentally.

I was like, this has been good for me.

I need to get back to this.

And so today I got myself struggled downstairs and I was on the couch.

I wasn't able to like to walk and pray like I normally do, but just to have that time and that space, it made me feel alive.

It made me feel prepared for the day.

I love that one book everybody should read besides yours.

I don't have an answer.

No.

I won't be corny and say something like the Bible, but I will recommend Mary Frances o' Connor book the Grieving Brain because we're all going to experience grief.

And I believe knowledge is power.

And then we're not blown away or unaware about how our brain responds to grief and the people around us, how their brains are responding.

Good.

The best advice you've given a grieving friend.

It's hard.

It's going to be hard because the person you love died.

And there may be a lot of people around you that don't understand it.

And that doesn't make it.

How you feel is wrong.

You get to feel how you feel.

One word that describes resilience.

Will you stop me on that?

Continually.

If you could have dinner with one, any historical figure, who would it be?

It would be Martin Luther King Jr.

I would want to know all the things that he saw when he talked about, I see you on the mountaintop.

I see you on the other side of that.

It seemed like God had given him a vision of what would happen after his absence.

What did that look like to.

To the fullest color of detail past the speech.

But what did you see?

And where is humanity now?

And what did you see?

It could be.

I love it.

One thing people often misunderstand about grief,.

That it's got an ending day.

That's right.

Like it's been two years.

You should be okay.

They're still dead.

Yeah.

And two years later you may get a phone bill that used to be theirs.

You could get something.

I get mail for my husband Mark today and we're going into 10 years.

So.

Dr. Tina, every episode we end with the same question because ultimately our lives tell a story that continues long after we're gone.

What do you want your legacy to be?

That I enjoyed my family and friends.

I showed up authentically in my relationship.

God loving people.

Not religious facade.

But meeting them where they are and encourage people to do the same with others.

That's good for listeners who'd like to connect with you and learn more about the Five Widows Club and support widowhood.

Real talk with Dr. Tina or access your resources you provide.

Where can they best find you?

Thank you for that question.

Two places tinaformwall.com you can email me at tinaenafarnwall.com or widowhoodrealtalkwithpina.com I'm sorry.org good.

Dr. Tina what a powerful conversation we had today.

A heartfelt conversation.

One of the greatest lessons from today's discussion is that grief is is not something we are meant to carry alone.

Healing happens when we allow others to walk beside us, listening to our story and reminding us that hope still exists.

So here's your challenge for this week.

Audience Reach out to someone who may be carrying a loss silently.

Send them a text, make a phone call, write a note, invite them out for coffee.

Don't try and fix their pain.

Simply remind them they're not forgotten.

Sometimes the most meaningful bridge we can build is the one that connects a hurting person to hope.

Today's episode encouraged you.

Please subscribe, leave a review and share with someone who may need this conversation.

Together we can create compassion, more understanding and more healing in our communities.

Until next time, I am Dr. Keith Haney, reminding you that becoming a bridge builder begins with empathy, grows through connection and leaves a legacy of hope.