We chew over the big question of presidential power—what happens when a president pushes too far and how does that whole post-office prosecution thing work? It's a tangled web of legal what-ifs that could scare any commander-in-chief.

We also size up the courts, debating their role in shaping policies, like the thorny issues of Roe v. Wade and race-based scholarships. This discussion is bound to get heated, considering how these decisions ripple through our society.

And then, we wrestle with free speech, especially on college campuses. What happens when speech codes and protests collide with learning? Plus, scholarships for specific races—constitutional or not? We're breaking it all down.

Don’t miss our take on the latest government stretch into Title 9 and gender identity, as this could be heading straight for a Supreme Court showdown.

Common Sense Moments

05:59 Supreme Court case established three levels of presidential power.

17:57 Lack of self-sufficiency, ignorance about income.

23:44 Government can limit free speech with restrictions.

25:28 Title 6 protects against speech discrimination.

34:39 Debate over presidential powers and separation of powers.

37:29 Balancing presidential conduct and political implications, supreme court.

44:42 Distinguishing intent in legal cases, jury's role.

51:19 Supreme Court ruling affects race-based scholarships.

52:18 Controversy over race-based scholarships and Supreme Court.

01:00:59 University defends open participation, opposes exclusive KKK scholarship.

01:04:16 Scholarship based on potential, not straight-A students.

01:07:38 DeSantis challenges federal Title 9 interpretation in Florida.

Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.

Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.

Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.

Harper CPA Plus

info@commonsenseohioshow.com

Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.

Copyright 2024 Common Sense Ohio

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/

Steve Palmer [: 00:00:00

Alright. Here we are. Common Sense Ohio, April 26, 2024. I feel like I've been gone for 2 weeks because I have been gone for 2 weeks, but the show went on. We had you guys anchored the table here, brought in a guest even, and, knocked it out of the park from our Facebook comments and otherwise. So excellent excellent guest. I encourage everybody to check it out, and you can do that, by the way, at commonsenseohioshow.com, where we have a catalog, back catalog, or whatever you would say of our all our old episodes. And, you know, for those who still haven't figured out the subscription options for podcasts, whether you have an iPhone or whether you have a droid or whether you have something in between, if there is such a thing, you can just subscribe right there on the website.

Steve Palmer [: 00:00:38

We've got buttons that say subscribe, like. You can check us out on social media. We have Facebook. We're Norma's Prolific. We have, all sorts of stuff going on. So brought to you week in week out by Harper Plus Accounting. I talked to Glenn Harper over at Harper Plus. Just yesterday, he was in the studio.

Steve Palmer [: 00:00:54

And by the way, he's got his own podcast. So if you're really curious about what goes on there, check that out, Brett. What's what's the Empowering entrepreneurs. Empowering entrepreneurs. So if you wanna be an entrepreneur, you check them out. If you're already an entrepreneur and you wanna be empowered, check that out too. And if you just wanna get to know Glenn and Julie, his, they they run a really, tight ship over there. So Harper Plus Accounting, thank you.

Steve Palmer [: 00:01:16

Now every week, I've been doing my civil war fact that they hold on my laptop just quick.

Norm Murdock [: 00:01:21

World War 2. But you Can I say civil war? Yeah. Yeah. But that's fine. Just civil war, man.

Brett Johnson [: 00:01:25

You've laid

Steve Palmer [: 00:01:26

in the Civil War.

Brett Johnson [: 00:01:26

I don't know, but you've laid Civil War before. We've come back that far.

Steve Palmer [: 00:01:29

I've done it. I've done it. But Sure. I you know, it's what I've what I've found sort of fascinating is when you when you sort of look back in history at Civil War times, there's a there's a lot of stuff that sort of happened as a result I said Civil War again. As a result of the any war. As a result of the war. So, you know, in history, you study wars and you can learn the facts. You can learn the details.

Steve Palmer [: 00:01:49

You can learn where the soldiers went on a certain battle. But what really is fascinating is the stuff that underlies it or undergirds it, you know, the political stuff going on.

Norm Murdock [: 00:01:57

The vow the value system.

Steve Palmer [: 00:01:59

The value systems going on. What caused the war in the first place? You know, sometimes you get down to what it felt like to be a soldier on the ground. That's a fascinating study for anybody who wants to do it. Today's fact, though, on April 20 6, 2024, there is a enormous company in the United States called Montgomery Ward. Mhmm. Alright. And Montgomery Ward was sort of like Sears and Roebuck's, and, you know, it was a it was a mail order supply house. And on this day, Roosevelt sent the National Guard to take over the Montgomery Ward plant.

Steve Palmer [: 00:02:31

Wow. Right? In 1944. Wow. And you would say, why, pray tell, would he do such a crazy thing? Well, this was right on the heels of the Great Depression and the New Deal. And the, the the, CEO of Montgomery Ward was a guy named hold on a second. I had it. Avery Sewell or Sewell Avery, one of the other. And he was a anti New Dealer.

Steve Palmer [: 00:02:55

In fact, he would criticize people, say, oh, that guy's a New Dealer. This guy was a capitalist extraordinaire, hated government intervention into, society. And I think a lot of people don't understand how significant it was when Roosevelt decided that he was gonna be that he was gonna create this New Deal. Because really, what it was is a socialist engineered economy, not unlike what the Nazis were doing or not completely unlike what the Nazis were doing Right. Which is sort of taking over business and Yeah. And cramming down regulation. The US Supreme Court didn't like it at all, basically struck down all of his regulations until about halfway through the New Deal when or the New Deal efforts when Roosevelt threatened to add Supreme Court justices. This is the old pack to court.

Steve Palmer [: 00:03:35

Okay. And then all of a sudden, the Supreme Court had a revelation Yeah. And said, no. I guess the government does have the power to cram down all this New Deal nonsense. And hence, the terms, a stitch in time saved 9. So the US Supreme Court reversed its field, permitted regulatory schemes being crammed down by Roosevelt and Company, and, they preserved the court as with only 9 members. And if you recall, some of this was getting kicked around at the time by the election, where the Dems were saying we need to pack the court some more.

Norm Murdock [: 00:04:08

Oh, yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:04:08

And they were saying, no. We're not packing the court. The Republicans packed the court with their appointments, which was, again, this Orwellian nonsense. And if you go way, way back to, like, a there's I think I even did, Brett, an old lawyer talk episode on on the history of the court and how many justices and and sort of what that's all about. But, anyway, Montgomery Ward. So what was going on is Montgomery Ward did not like labor unions. They eventually acquiesced, and they had a labor they permitted labor unions. And there were negotiations that were going a foul, and they wouldn't get resolved.

Steve Palmer [: 00:04:38

So they were striking, etcetera, and, they couldn't get resolved. So, you know, Roosevelt saying, look, we need this. The the army was buying all sorts of stuff. Yeah. Tractors and and supplies, etcetera, through Montgomery Ward. So they went in and just took it over. They they went in and said, we're taking over. And they actually, you know, frog marched out Sewell or Avery Sewell and took over the industry.

Steve Palmer [: 00:05:02

Eventually, this went to just a district court, I think, and, was upheld, and it sort of sort of died down historically without a whole lot of fanfare. But it was significant because it was a huge flex of the government muscle Yeah. To take over a private industry. So imagine that in today's day and age, the National Guard coming out and and taking over

Norm Murdock [: 00:05:20

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:05:21

Because of this emergency Right. That had to do with the war.

Norm Murdock [: 00:05:26

And now we have widened what an emergency is to things like COVID.

Steve Palmer [: 00:05:30

Real. And I'm gonna bring this right back home in a second, because well, but before I do, in 1954, Truman tried the same thing with Youngstown Sheet and Tube. So anybody who knows the Youngstown steel story Mhmm. There was a labor dispute. They weren't producing the steel. This is during the Korean War. Mhmm. Truman goes in and tries to do the same thing, but the Supreme Court finally puts its foot down and, prevents it and sort of delineated that, hey, look, the president doesn't have this kind of authority.

Steve Palmer [: 00:05:59

And the and the the Supreme Court in that case, in young Youngstown Sheet and Tube basically came up with, I think it was I was just gonna confirm. I think it was Jackson's opinion sort of created this sort of three levels of presidential power and whether, you know, the first had to do with, there's expressed authority in the constitution or expressed implied authority from Congress, And you refer to the zone of twilight where maybe the congress they both have similar power to act, but Congress isn't, so they're gonna do it. And then, cases in which the president was defying congressional orders. So anyway, it created this framework that that is sort of undergirds a lot of the administrative executive power, in today's day and age. Now what's interesting to me is I saw a headline this week. I didn't dig in deep to it, but Biden is sort of tinkering around with declaring a formal emergency over what?

Norm Murdock [: 00:06:52

Climate change.

Steve Palmer [: 00:06:52

Climate change.

Norm Murdock [: 00:06:54

Right. So Which can mean anything.

Steve Palmer [: 00:06:56

Which can mean anything. So mean

Norm Murdock [: 00:06:57

any you know? Right. Like What kind of power? Tornado.

Steve Palmer [: 00:07:01

Right. So if you're in a if in World War 2 or if the Korean War, you know, these are emergencies. But now we have he declares an emergency during climate change. What executive power is that gonna vest on the government? It might be the and, you know, the headline I read, which is the headlines I do read says, you know, this is the last vestige of freedom going bye bye if he does that and takes over. I disagree. I think what's gonna happen is it's going to push this right into the realm where our Supreme Court can finally, thoroughly, and completely gut this unconstitutional usurpation. Mhmm. Usurpation of presidential power.

Steve Palmer [: 00:07:35

Yeah. And it they're close. And I've talked before about something called the Chevron doctrine in in in ministry power. But, you know, they're very close to saying, enough's enough. We've got a separation of powers problem in this country. We do. And we're about to tamp it down.

Brett Johnson [: 00:07:49

Well, and it may rear its head in the TikTok ban. I think that might be the first mini baby step because it's, you know, again, it's at foreign power with TikTok, but if TikTok takes it

Norm Murdock [: 00:08:01

But that's where that's legislation. Well, as opposed to executive action.

Brett Johnson [: 00:08:06

This is no. No. No. No. The TikTok thing TikTok thing is executive action. No. No.

Norm Murdock [: 00:08:10

It's they pass a law. I know. But, it's Biden assigned it.

Brett Johnson [: 00:08:13

But, it's a executive action. The president can come in and if if the if the if they cut the company that owns the app okay we'll kind of go and rabbit I didn't mean to take it away

Steve Palmer [: 00:08:24

from the start

Brett Johnson [: 00:08:25

because it is from way it stated if the app is owned it. Minimally 20% by foreign power in the past that the country that is declared a foreign we're

Steve Palmer [: 00:08:38

at war with them. Nemesis.

Brett Johnson [: 00:08:39

Nemesis. The president can say divest.

Steve Palmer [: 00:08:44

So wait a minute. So this is so you're saying the act of congress that's banning TikTok is really an an express grant of authority to the executive branch to unilaterally act. Now that's a that's a little bit of a different issue. Maybe.

Brett Johnson [: 00:08:54

But but I'm

Steve Palmer [: 00:08:55

just saying It may come up that way.

Norm Murdock [: 00:08:56

That's not the way I read that law.

Steve Palmer [: 00:08:57

I I didn't read the law, so I confessed my complete total No. It's okay. I just read TikTok, man.

Brett Johnson [: 00:09:02

Yeah. But that that's what it is.

Norm Murdock [: 00:09:03

It's wrapped up in that 702 section of Pfizer. Yeah. It was in the same bill.

Steve Palmer [: 00:09:09

Yeah. But

Brett Johnson [: 00:09:10

lots of other stuff. But anyway, it could be a little chink that

Steve Palmer [: 00:09:12

There's a lot steps going there. But, you know, you're you're you're right in the sense that there is a broader, there's a broader. It's not

Brett Johnson [: 00:09:20

Non checks and balances of power. That's that's what bothers me about it. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:09:24

But it and and it goes even beyond that. It goes it goes to this notion of what is the federal power in our country. And

Norm Murdock [: 00:09:31

There you go. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:09:32

You know? Right. Right. Whether it's whether it's That

Norm Murdock [: 00:09:33

could include congress and the

Steve Palmer [: 00:09:35

president. President Exactly. Or the judiciary. And Yeah. You know, our country was not founded with the idea that the federal government would have such broad sweeping authority. And, Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:09:45

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:09:46

You know, I've said this before. I had a debate. Yeah. I've debated somebody that is completely politically on the other side of my equation. And and this individual basically said, yeah. I mean, we it's almost like we're gonna have to have 2 different like, several different countries where people just go and live in the country where where you know, wherever the rest of the people that agree with them are. And I said, yeah, jackass. We used to have that.

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:05

That's called states.

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:06

It was called federalism. You know? You could go live in a state.

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:09

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:10

And that's that's why we did it this way. Because every other empire that tries to cram down a single soul morality or,

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:19

I mean, Louisiana, for example, had Napoleonic code law.

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:23

That's right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:24

And so if you want to go down there and and have that kind of a legal system or live next door in, you know, whatever, Alabama. Knock yourself out.

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:32

Knock yourself out. Yeah. And now and we've been surfing on the crest of this, like, alright. So what what do we cram down from the federal government? What do we not? And it sort of tipped over to everything at this point. Everything. You know?

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:43

This federal law. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:44

It wasn't good enough for the pro abortion folks to have legalized abortion in, like, New York. Right. They wanted every they they they And they wanted up to

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:54

the day of birth.

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:56

And so what did they do? They federalized the issue and invented a constitutional right that didn't exist. And that's why Roe v Wade was finally and totally and completely reversed because it was never intended to be that way. So if you want if you want abortion where you live, go live someplace where there's abortion. Yeah. Now, look, I don't agree with it anyway, and we can talk about that on some other occasion. But at least now the country is sort of starting to like, you can just see the the the wheels starting to spin again, and it's operating in a little bit, like, just a little bit the way it was supposed to be.

Brett Johnson [: 00:11:25

Well, and almost that, that that awakening going, you mean we can have it this way?

Steve Palmer [: 00:11:29

Yes. Right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:11:30

We can. Well, I think on climate change, what's going to happen is they will, at least at a minimum, believe that they have the legal power to do everything they did during COVID.

Steve Palmer [: 00:11:43

At least.

Norm Murdock [: 00:11:44

At least. At least. So Because the American people because we were bought off. You know, you know, they they they spent this incredible amount of money to make it so people could lay on the sofa and order pizza. Yep. The the point is that the American people did not rise up because of this mollifying PPP program the way they would have. If you would have told the American people they couldn't work or open their stores for 6 months or a year and and you didn't compensate them in any way, there would have been riots. There would have been so much over you know, there would have been

Brett Johnson [: 00:12:25

a huge

Steve Palmer [: 00:12:25

I don't know. I I I honestly don't know. I don't know what's going on with our country right now. I have no idea. I don't know what the populace is. I think I look.

Norm Murdock [: 00:12:32

Instead, we queued up at a window to get stuff from the government to to to keep us you know what I'm saying?

Steve Palmer [: 00:12:39

No. But I I don't know if one I I I don't know if it was a chicken or an egg. I I I don't know if we've just been walled into the state of complete dependence and fear.

Norm Murdock [: 00:12:48

But so

Steve Palmer [: 00:12:49

you're like not the American dream. It's not the American way.

Norm Murdock [: 00:12:51

But, like, Montgomery Ward. Okay. They frog marched out management, but their shareholders still kept getting paid. I mean, they in in other words, they didn't they didn't nationalize Montgomery Ward. They didn't it didn't become part of the government. It was still private sector And they still were getting paid. The workers there were getting paid.

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:12

Yeah. The government just took over what was going on and settled

Norm Murdock [: 00:13:14

the Liberals' Use and

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:15

and that was that. Right. Well, that's fascism.

Norm Murdock [: 00:13:17

As opposed to in COVID, like, they went way past Montgomery Ward. They actually put companies out of business permanently. Yeah. And and people were their shareholders weren't getting paid at all Mhmm. Because the company wasn't able to make any income.

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:35

It's,

Norm Murdock [: 00:13:35

and I mean, it it was way past Montgomery Ward, and we took it. The American

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:41

people That's what that's the point I made.

Norm Murdock [: 00:13:43

That's unbelievable.

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:43

The question is why? And I'm no psychologist or sociologist, but, you know, I can speculate with the best of them. You know, like, why? What is it? Have we been have we been lulled into the state of dependent complacency and fear over the last 20, 30, 40, 50 years to the point where we just expect cushiness no matter where we are. It's Right. And so therefore when

Norm Murdock [: 00:14:03

We do. When, when Uncle Sam takes care of us.

Steve Palmer [: 00:14:06

And when

Norm Murdock [: 00:14:06

so He's our daddy now.

Steve Palmer [: 00:14:08

COVID? I mean, come on. We're talking about a flu and that That's right. A dangerous flu. It's like in in like That's right. Humans have been grappling with such affairs for since the beginning of time. Right. You know, and and it sucks. You know, we live through the bubonic plague.

Steve Palmer [: 00:14:20

We live through all sorts of craziness. Right. And now all of a sudden, it's we're so afraid of it that we're we're willing to stick our hands behind our backs and let the federal government handcuff us. It's like, what? I wasn't. Yeah. Personally speaking, and I was appalled that others were. Not I wasn't it's not that I criticize those people as much as I'm I'm curious.

Norm Murdock [: 00:14:40

Wear wear your mask all you want, but don't make me wear 1. Don't make me shut down my business.

Steve Palmer [: 00:14:46

That's right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:14:47

You know, don't make me fire my employees. Don't make me, you know Is it because become impoverished.

Steve Palmer [: 00:14:53

Is it because we have a small business and, you know, by so it's probably a bunch of things at once, so as most things are. You know? And all 3 of us here at the table operate small businesses. So we're all in some level entrepreneurs. And entrepreneurs on some level beyond that have a certain independence and, or maybe I have a certain inability to be commanded by authority. You know, I like

Brett Johnson [: 00:15:15

That's why you like to do

Steve Palmer [: 00:15:16

what you do. I like to do what I wanna do. Sometimes really bad. Sometimes really good. Small business in the middle.

Norm Murdock [: 00:15:21

Really small businesses like ours And

Steve Palmer [: 00:15:23

we got crushed.

Norm Murdock [: 00:15:23

We don't get any of the cushy stuff that that the government commands big business to give to their employees. You and I don't get a paid vacation. No. You and I don't get free health care. We don't get free this, free that, free the other thing. Not none of it is built into our compensation package because we are responsible for our own compensation. And and it's like the rest of society doesn't even understand that, like, when they get 10 weeks off for a new baby being born and the dad can just lay around with a mom for a couple of months, wonderful. I'm so happy for you.

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:04

But you and I and and Brett, we don't have those benefits.

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:07

I had a kid down here, and I say kid because he's probably younger than I am, but certainly an adult. And he was down here for a fundraiser for a far leftist candidate one night. And, he worked at CODA. This is this is in the middle of COVID. Right? May actually towards the end of COVID. Right. Anywhere, Dakota. And, you know, we sort of got into this a little bit and, about how we should compensate, and I should do this, and I should do that.

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:32

I said, look, man. Let me tell you what my income has been for the last year, and it's about goose egg. It's about 0. Right? And, I'm doing my best to pay people. But before we got there, he's just, like, well, you know, if you can't pay yourself or if, you know, if you can't pay your employees, you're just gonna have to take less. And I said, you don't understand. I'm not taking anything. Like, I'm not getting paid.

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:53

Right. 0. Mister transit workers

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:56

Mister minimum wage, jack it up. You're not getting paid anything. So and he's like, well, you should just take less. I said, well, I'm already taking 0. How do you take less than 0? And he shit it stopped him in his tracks. He had no concept of it. And I said, what's your what are your hours right now? I mean, what do you what do you do at Coda? Are you working at home at your granite kitchen countertop with your government supplied laptop staring at screens? Or are you I mean, what are you doing? You know, he he didn't have any

Norm Murdock [: 00:17:19

He's driving a bus with nobody on it. No.

Steve Palmer [: 00:17:21

He was, like, on the admin side. He wasn't even driving to be on bus. He wasn't doing anything. Yeah. And But he's

Norm Murdock [: 00:17:26

a member of the TWU, Transit Workers Union.

Steve Palmer [: 00:17:29

Paid the whole time. Sure. And, you know, and he thinks that the evil capitalists like me he because this guy was a flat out communist. Sure. You know, we got done with it. He he looked at me sort of, like, with a smile. Now what do you think? Like, usually, it got me. And I said, yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:17:41

I know what this is. This is called communism. You guys are a bunch of communists.

Norm Murdock [: 00:17:44

Communists on tires.

Steve Palmer [: 00:17:45

You guys are a bunch of communists. I get it. And it was Susan Sarandon and her whole ilk of of of, people trying to raise money for this party. And, you know, it it's just a completely different ideological way to look at it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:17:57

Well, these people, they don't they don't know what self sufficiency is. 0. They they have no idea what it is like to wake up in in the morning and realize that you have no income right now before your first cup of coffee that day until you get your ass in gear and make it happen. Convince somebody to do business with you. Complete some kind of marketing campaign so somebody calls you back and gives you an order or comes into your office or or hires Brett or or or or or hires you to be their lawyer. I mean, they have no idea. They get paid whether they work hard or whether they don't work hard. They they get paid whether there's customers on the bus or no customers on

Steve Palmer [: 00:18:44

the bus. Ask these kind of guys. It's like, alright. So you want the government to sort of tip well, then the government will take control and do this and then. And I was like, well, I would ask them, how many legal pads should I buy next month? Right. And they sort of look at me. I said, well, how many pens? Right. And they sort of look at me and, like, well, what should my marketing budget be? And they just sort of look at me.

Steve Palmer [: 00:19:01

I was, like, the point is you have no effing clue. And how on earth do you think that some guy sitting in Washington, DC would have any clue how to run my business? I figured it out through hard knocks over 25, almost 30 years now doing this Yeah. How I run my business. I'm not perfect at it, but I have figured it out. And I can tell you this. If anybody here in this room walked into my business, it would fail. Not because I'm smarter, but because I have done it. I'm swimming in it.

Steve Palmer [: 00:19:25

I couldn't run your business or your business. We have figured it out. And they think that somehow the government can just be responsible for all this.

Norm Murdock [: 00:19:31

Well, Coda, I got news for you. Mass transit, authorities are not businesses. They don't live out of the revenue that comes into the fare box.

Steve Palmer [: 00:19:40

No. Of course not. Right. Because it doesn't support

Norm Murdock [: 00:19:42

their business. Giganticly subsidized.

Steve Palmer [: 00:19:45

Right. I mean, it's It's not even close.

Norm Murdock [: 00:19:47

It's it's out of Franklin County's, sales tax. It's out of federal government highway funds that are diverted from upkeep and building bridges.

Steve Palmer [: 00:19:57

So we have bumpy roads because we have code of buses.

Norm Murdock [: 00:19:59

And shitty bridges.

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:00

And meanwhile, get

Norm Murdock [: 00:20:01

And they're building bike trails and all this fruity tooty stuff instead of fixing the roads with a highway trust fund.

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:08

Right. Well, anyway

Norm Murdock [: 00:20:09

Anyway, yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:09

That's our rant on on this nonsense. But, anyway, Youngstown Sheet and 2. Check it out. Montgomery Ward, Youngstown Cheating too.

Norm Murdock [: 00:20:15

Youngstown happens to

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:16

be on top of you. Yep. So yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:20:18

And then the phrase, stitch in time. I had no idea that came from that.

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:22

Well, a stitch in time saves 9 is the phrase. So yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:20:26

I'm gonna throw a first amendment bomb to start off another subject if it

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:30

could Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:20:31

Do it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:20:31

You guys good with that? I

Brett Johnson [: 00:20:32

like that one.

Norm Murdock [: 00:20:33

So I'm digging Ohio State University's new president, former superintendent of the US Naval Academy. I love this guy. He understands the difference between the first amendment, okay, and camping out and trespassing and, you know, creating zones and occupying buildings and all of that. So I think 12 people arrested by CPD and campus police yesterday. Fine. But I do wanna say something to my conservative friends that wanna go one step further and actually, like, use these campus speech codes, you know, against the Hamas protesters. So I support Israel. I I condemn anti Semitic, hatred.

Norm Murdock [: 00:21:29

I love everybody, as you know, But I am a first amendment absolutist. And if a Hamas supporter wants to get on the quad and hand out, flyers or or or engage in speech that says, I hate Jews and, Israel, shouldn't exist as a country. He or she has every right to do that as despicable as those messages are. And I don't think that so called hate codes or hate speech codes or this crap that they've invented basically to shut down conservative speech. I don't like that conservatives now are coming along and saying they want Columbia or New York or or these other universities to just, ban speech itself. That's wrong.

Brett Johnson [: 00:22:23

Correct.

Norm Murdock [: 00:22:24

And so That's totally wrong. That's totally wrong. And so It's

Steve Palmer [: 00:22:26

it's a very nuanced problem.

Norm Murdock [: 00:22:28

It's a nuanced problem. And I do understand emotionally how conservatives having had, you know, firebombings and and and, assaults and, stuff sprayed on them and all of these terrible things that have happened to conservative speakers on campus wanting now to, upend the table back on to the Liberals. And I would encourage them, okay, if we have a campus speech code, I can see why you would wanna use that tool, you know, on the other side. I get that. Sure. I understand it. But overall, I'm against these speech codes. They shouldn't be used against either side.

Brett Johnson [: 00:23:09

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:23:10

But so it is nuanced, Steve. It sure is.

Brett Johnson [: 00:23:12

Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah. Exactly. I mean, if you have parameters where you can be to speak out. Okay.

Steve Palmer [: 00:23:19

Well, let's And if you're

Brett Johnson [: 00:23:20

in that zone, you can't or making too much noise.

Steve Palmer [: 00:23:22

That's right. But you have to break this down. Yeah. So here's the thing. We have free speech in this country. And free speech means that the government, not the private not private entities, but the government can't, punish you or stop you from speaking freely. Now that's pretty broad statement. So everybody knows you can't screen fire in a crowded theater and all the exceptions and Well, you can,

Brett Johnson [: 00:23:43

but you'll have retribution.

Steve Palmer [: 00:23:44

You can never they can they can stop that. Right? So Right. One of the things that the government can do historically in our country, despite your first amendment right of free speech, is something called time, place, and manner restrictions. And anybody who's been to law school your 1st year of Con Law, you learn this stuff or maybe it's your 2nd year. But, constitutional law in 101 is time, place, and manner restriction. Now what the hell does that mean? That means you can't scream fire in a crowded theater. That means if you're gonna if you're gonna try to shut down High Street in Columbus, Ohio like they did during the BLM riots, you have to go get a permit, and it has to be approved. Now the permitting and approval process has to be fairly administered.

Steve Palmer [: 00:24:23

In other words, they can't give the, the KKK a permit, but not BLM a permit or vice versa. Right. But if neither if any of those groups does this without a permit, you can shut it down. And this and another individual I was arguing with during this, during these riots, She she was like, well, you know, you're against the government stopping these kind of things. I said, no. No. No. No.

Steve Palmer [: 00:24:43

No. No. No. These people have shut down my life. Right. Like, I they are opinion calling my freedoms now by shutting down our city and rioting and destroying property. That's not free speech. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:24:54

If they wanna go get a permit, then, damn it, go get a permit, shut down the Capitol, march on the Capitol. You know, they'll they'll believe it or not, the government will close down High Street for you on a Saturday

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:05

And they will protect you.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:06

And they'll protect you from any naysayers. Right. The state violent naysayers. Now naysayers can go and scream.

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:12

When when the KKK, did their little demonstration on the state house lawn

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:17

It's I remember.

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:17

The state patrol protected them

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:19

That's right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:20

Against people that hate the KKK. Yep. Absolutely. I get it.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:23

And and these people say, well, that's not good enough. We wanna go break things. Well, you know what? That's a crime.

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:27

Yeah. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:28

That's a crime. Now take this to the colleges and campuses. I think it's what is it? Like, title 6? Title 6. You have, you have this weird sort of the government has intervened and said, we're gonna give some legislative meat to the First Amendment and say you can't be discriminated against based on speech. Yeah. But then that sort of creates this sort of double edge weirdness, you know. So does that mean that you can't that I can't say things that are going to offend you and or you can't say things that offend me. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:57

And then should the should a public university shut that down or not shut that down? It gets really dicey.

Norm Murdock [: 00:26:02

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:26:02

But my I I think the bigger problem here is we have an un what's the right way to put it? Unequal enforcement of free speech laws on campus. And that's what your conservative friends are saying. They're saying shut this down as it just as if they would shut down, the opposite voice.

Norm Murdock [: 00:26:20

Exactly right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:26:21

And I'm saying, and I think you're saying, I think we would all agree here, shut down neither. Exactly. But at least enforce order. You know, you can't take over public campus buildings. You can't create human barricades. I mean, there's videos of professors coming out in their in their bullshit gowns You you creating this wall to protect these people. Right. And they're saying they're even telling the media, you can't film us.

Steve Palmer [: 00:26:44

It's a public freaking park. Yeah. I can film whatever you want. So it's like as there's protecting as they're professing to exercise their free speech, they're preventing others from doing the same. You know, it's so it is so ass backwards and so absurd. So I can understand the conservative your conservative friends backlash saying, shut these people

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:03

down. Oh, you hear it nationally, you know, Clay Travis, for example, on on what used to be the Russian Limbaugh show. So, you know, you he he he's like, you know, hey. The you you just got you've gotta bring in the National Guard and just squelch all this.

Brett Johnson [: 00:27:17

I heard that National Guard comments. I may do.

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:21

Maybe if it's out of hand and the university can't control it, but the problem is ab initio. From the beginning, the university is encouraging it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:28

That's right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:28

They're supporting it. So what the bigger problem is

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:31

Like those like those presidents that testified before Congress. Right? And they would not, under their speech codes, they wouldn't admit that it is hate speech, you know, against the Jews to say all these things.

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:44

Right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:45

And it's like, well, if you're gonna have a speech code, you've gotta force it both ways.

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:49

Both ways. Right? Otherwise, you run into something else called an equal protection problem. But so what the universities are doing is sort of sanctioning one group or one idea, but not another. And 100%. You know, you can't tell me if there was a MAGA rally taking over buildings, that they wouldn't come in with Absolutely. All the forces available at their whim and shut it down. Yeah. They would.

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:11

They would. But if you're saying kill all the Jews Yeah. Then somehow that's okay.

Norm Murdock [: 00:28:16

That's okay. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:17

It's protected. I think both, you know, both sides have the ability to be abhorrent.

Norm Murdock [: 00:28:22

Yeah. Right?

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:23

So I don't there there's messages on both sides I don't like, but I I respect the right to say to at least, profess your message. And the problem is a time, place, and manner problem as well as an equal protection problem. Yeah. And it's not just send in the National Guard. It's like, wait a minute. Public universities can't sanction 1 or the other or one over the other. Mhmm. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:45

And they can't permit they shouldn't permit, these morons to take over public sectors of our society. Right. You can't do it. I don't care what they're free speech

Brett Johnson [: 00:28:54

right now. And and even, with the protest on campus, you gotta feel for the students that are taking finals this week or last week. For God's But the system They're paying for this education.

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:05

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:05

That the university is okay you're allowed between this line and this line. The noise has to be down, but you can be here. You can protest. But there are kids paying for an education over here trying to take a final.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:15

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:15

And if you were wanna disrupt it. Okay. But you're not going to.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:18

And if it were I mean, don't I and I'm not even gonna go so far as to say as guys wearing sheets and white hats. I mean, I'm not even gonna go so far as say if it were KKK. If it were MAGA, if it were people wearing MAGA hats, they'd shut it down.

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:29

They have shut down.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:30

And and that's what's amazing.

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:31

Young Republican club speakers

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:34

Not even that. All over camp. Go a little bit more offensive, but it's, like, to them, I mean.

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:38

Yeah. To them.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:38

I know.

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:39

Right. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:39

Or just just put on red MAGA hats and walk around, and I'll bet they would shut it down. But they won't shut it down when it's pro Hamas people saying kill all the Jews. America sucks. Right. And, death to America. Sure. Not only that. They're, like, sanctioning it.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:51

So Right. I I you know, the Which is the problem isn't that

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:55

mind blowing? It is mind blowing. It's mind blowing to me.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:58

I I don't Professors in their in their graduation gowns with their ribbons. I mean, who are these jackasses?

Norm Murdock [: 00:30:04

I just cannot fathom where the Jew hatred is coming from, you know, 75, 80 years after the holocaust.

Steve Palmer [: 00:30:12

Like Is it Jew hatred or is it just America hatred? I mean, because it's like it's just it's just a hop, skip, and a jump to say death to America. You know? It's really just we hate America. We don't care what your cause is. If you hate America too, we're best friends.

Brett Johnson [: 00:30:23

Wow. I don't know. Yeah. Well,

Norm Murdock [: 00:30:24

and you

Brett Johnson [: 00:30:26

know, kind of diving a little bit deeper and then I saw something that, what's, house speaker Johnson was at Columbia University.

Norm Murdock [: 00:30:32

Which was pretty ballsy of him.

Brett Johnson [: 00:30:34

Which it was, but it's but I also have to say you might wanna stay home and do some homework though because he did make a quote. And, I I don't know why I want to look at this but he he said that during a radio appearance, ahead of the rally that at Columbia, Johnson said his alma mater wouldn't tolerate anti anti semitism on his campus and that if it happened there, he'd be down there himself. He graduate from Louisiana State University.

Steve Palmer [: 00:30:56

Yeah. I have

Brett Johnson [: 00:30:57

to tell him go look at history because they had a protest in November of 23.

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:02

Oh, did they? And he was not down there in the He

Brett Johnson [: 00:31:03

wasn't down there. So, Mike, you might wanna do a little bit of homework before you make

Norm Murdock [: 00:31:08

the killing. A little pissy

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:11

political it's like these these political over Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It shows you.

Norm Murdock [: 00:31:14

That's when he took over for Kevin.

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:16

On both on both sides of this Exactly. Exactly. These people go there for political theater.

Brett Johnson [: 00:31:21

That's exactly my point. It's just theater.

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:24

I'm with him. I look. I'm with him. Look. I I made this table saying

Norm Murdock [: 00:31:27

The president of the United States and the vice president are not standing up for Jewish Americans. So I'm glad that the speaker of the house who's number 3 in line, I'm glad he did.

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:38

Renounce it, condemn it. Say say I don't know. What what do you guys think of this stuff? So it's like these these reporters go stick microphones in the face of, like, Yolanda Armar or, Ocasio Cortez and say, do you condemn the death of America speech? And it's like No.

Norm Murdock [: 00:31:52

They don't.

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:52

They of course, they don't. Of course, they well, I don't

Brett Johnson [: 00:31:55

talk to

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:56

Fox News and put it in.

Brett Johnson [: 00:31:57

It's a gotcha question.

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:58

It's sort of like it seems sort of theatrical to me.

Brett Johnson [: 00:32:01

Yes.

Steve Palmer [: 00:32:01

Now it is it is interesting to me that they won't.

Brett Johnson [: 00:32:04

But Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:32:05

You know? Yeah. It's like sticking a microphone in a in on the other side. So do you condemn global warming?

Brett Johnson [: 00:32:10

Like, how? Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:32:11

And then

Norm Murdock [: 00:32:11

And they always ask Republicans these kinds of questions, I'm

Steve Palmer [: 00:32:14

glad to see somebody in the

Norm Murdock [: 00:32:14

media asking tough questions of the other side. Well, I look. I I'm I'm with you.

Steve Palmer [: 00:32:19

It just seems sort of theatrical. But at at the same time, they're making a point. So what do you mean?

Norm Murdock [: 00:32:24

Every Republican gets asked about abortion. Right? Every Republican gets needled about abortion. Oh, you hate women. Right? So that's why you have these feelings. Nobody asked Democrats. Right? Are you in favor of abortion up to the day of delivery? And none of them will answer

Steve Palmer [: 00:32:42

that question.

Norm Murdock [: 00:32:44

Right?

Steve Palmer [: 00:32:44

You get crickets.

Norm Murdock [: 00:32:45

They don't really wanna go back to Roe where it was the first trimester. Now it's, like, so radical. They want to be able to abort up to the day. It's it's which Ohio, our law right now is that.

Steve Palmer [: 00:32:58

Our our law right now is that. Right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:33:00

Which is a nightmare.

Steve Palmer [: 00:33:01

The First Amendment, we've checked that box.

Norm Murdock [: 00:33:03

Well, yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:33:03

Maybe there's

Norm Murdock [: 00:33:04

more to it. So so, dudes, something we have talked about in the past, this Trump, case in front of the Supreme Court and questions and arguments went back and forth yesterday. And, you know, it's kinda cool that now you can listen to the Supreme Court live. At least, you know, it's not cameras aren't on but you you can you can listen to it. And it's about, a presidential immunity and once again, I'm I'm sure what Roberts is gonna do is is split the baby and come up with some qualified immunity thing. But I just love the moronic questions coming out of Ketanji Brown Jackson in particular who said that if we give immunity to president, it would become a seat of criminality which is a 16/19 point of view. And and the the lawyer for former president Trump answered her with, well, we've had this system promised 250 years and I don't think the presidency has been a seat of criminality. Right? But but, of course, she doesn't view it that way.

Norm Murdock [: 00:34:08

A 16/19 project person like she is would view that basically the entire history of the United States has been one of criminal behavior. Alito, on the other hand, was superb. And he asked the, justice department attorney, what about FDR's internment of the Japanese? I mean, clearly, taking away their property and for enforcing them to live in I don't know. What was it? 11 different camps all over the United?

Steve Palmer [: 00:34:37

I didn't know of 11, but, yes, camps everywhere.

Norm Murdock [: 00:34:39

I mean, if that isn't kidnapping and theft, I don't know what is. So, you know, should they be to go and take FDR into criminal court for something he did as, an official act? Or you could even construe it as he did that as an electioneering thing to benefit himself personally, which they're saying Trump did about January 6th, that that was a personal act not a presidential act because it was about his reelection. Well, you could say that about any presidential act. You could say that about declaring war on Japan and Germany that he was trying to ensure his reelection. I mean, the the hair splitting going on at the Supreme Court and the fact that we don't have separation of powers like we we need to, It bothers me, number 1, that the Supreme Court is even musing over presidential power because the presidency is an equal branch of the government as the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court is about to decide what presidential powers are. Well, can the president decide what the Supreme Court's powers are? These are 3 independent branches that are supposed to be equally strong. So,

Steve Palmer [: 00:35:52

I mean, look, this

Norm Murdock [: 00:35:53

is this is This is this is there's a lot

Steve Palmer [: 00:35:56

of stuff to unpack with this argument, and I'm not prepared to do it here at the table other than just to maybe point out a couple issues. It's like and, you know, I just skimming some of the the comments by the justice during questioning. I think at least they're starting to they they understand here that there's a bigger picture at play. Oh, yeah. It it's like they I think one of them said they're writing the rules for the ages here because this has the ability, this being prosecuting a sitting president, has the ability to be weaponized by political opponents. And

Norm Murdock [: 00:36:27

After they leave office. You know?

Steve Palmer [: 00:36:29

Well, before, during, and after they leave office. Well, they Before because it's right now and president or Trump might be president Right. During Yeah. I guess at least then they have impeachment. And then after, as they're planning to run maybe again. So on the other hand, there are certain acts that I would argue you should be able to prosecute a president for committing, and and we're just in this weird spot. This, you know, bad policy, bad practices, and a screwed up I always call it my pool table analogy. When you play pool with sloppy players, the table gets all sloppy, and it's a really difficult game.

Steve Palmer [: 00:37:02

And our game right now politically is very difficult because the parties have become very sloppy against each other. And, you know, and the the Democrats here have weaponized every tool at their disposal to take down their most evil adversary that they perceive has ever existed. Oh, for sure. And as a result of that, we have arguments like this going on in the US Supreme Court.

Norm Murdock [: 00:37:19

Now There is no goodwill in our government anymore. No. Nobody

Steve Palmer [: 00:37:23

gives gloves are off.

Norm Murdock [: 00:37:24

Yeah. Nobody gives anybody else any space. And so our system is not working.

Steve Palmer [: 00:37:29

And we got close to we've been close to this a little bit, but, you know, it it we've we've we're making precedent or the Supreme Court has to make a precedent that somehow fits all this together going forward. Otherwise, it's either gonna be unfettered conduct by a president who shouldn't be able to commit unfettered conduct, or it's gonna be a political weapon by the other party, no matter who's president. And they have to somehow write an opinion that navigates the treacherous waters of those two issues. And I I I don't envy the task No. Because they have to do it with their own political split. Now I did see Amy Coney Barrett had some questions along this line. Like, she was like, well, wait a minute. What if the president does actually commit a coup? Let's assume that the allegation is true.

Steve Palmer [: 00:38:11

Change the facts or change the people. We actually have a coup where the president tries to take over the senate, where the president tries to take over the government. Are you saying we can't prosecute that, because it's somehow an official act? So, you know, you may get a definitional, decision, like, if there is if there is that, then you can prosecute. But here, we didn't have that, so you can't I I don't know how they're gonna we weasel around this. Right. We'll just have to see.

Norm Murdock [: 00:38:37

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:38:37

To me, I would think it is a I if I had to bet, the show will go on. They will permit the prosecution for the j 6 stuff, in on some level. I I don't think the Supreme Court is actually gonna tamp it down. I I I I and I don't even I I can't even tell you how or why or how they're gonna do that. Why they're gonna do that? Because I think they wanna they don't want to appear like they're interfering at that level.

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:03

They just wanna let it air out.

Norm Murdock [: 00:39:04

Well, the same Amy Coney Barrett also said that she didn't think she thought a a line should be drawn between state prosecutions and federal. And she asked that question.

Steve Palmer [: 00:39:15

That's an interesting question.

Norm Murdock [: 00:39:17

Can we not so that knocks out that crazy lady down in Atlanta that is doing the J6 trial. She Well, she's doing the

Steve Palmer [: 00:39:25

the election interference trial, right? Yeah. Exactly. She's turned that into a Rico which is lunacy.

Norm Murdock [: 00:39:30

But it's a state prosecution

Steve Palmer [: 00:39:32

Yes.

Norm Murdock [: 00:39:32

From a criminal And she is saying, can't we at least draw the line that states can't state courts can't be involved in this? So that would knock out the j six trial.

Steve Palmer [: 00:39:42

Well and I think if you're gonna do some, you have to do well, no. Not not when I say j six trial, I mean the one in DC.

Norm Murdock [: 00:39:49

Which would be what? The electioneering thing No. That Bragg brought or the Leticia James

Steve Palmer [: 00:39:54

No. No. No. The I don't

Norm Murdock [: 00:39:55

know which one.

Steve Palmer [: 00:39:55

DC, attack on the Capitol. Trump is indicted. And, that The Jack Smith 1. The Jack Smith 1. Yeah. Does it knock out Florida? Does it knock out, that's a federal case too.

Norm Murdock [: 00:40:08

And that's federal too.

Steve Palmer [: 00:40:09

Does it knock out the Georgia state law

Norm Murdock [: 00:40:12

And the New York.

Steve Palmer [: 00:40:13

Rico? Does it the New York thing that's going on now? I mean, it's like

Brett Johnson [: 00:40:17

Well, so if you'd be I'm gonna complain this out though if the states don't have any say in, you know, taking a president to court. Let's put it that way. Is it is it taking some powers away from the state though if you do that as well?

Steve Palmer [: 00:40:30

Well, the question is whether the Constitution prohibits it. Okay. It's whether the Constitution prohibits it. Because I can I can see Or federal law president?

Brett Johnson [: 00:40:39

I could see a president just taking out his angst against a state that voted if you're red, they voted blue. You know what I mean?

Steve Palmer [: 00:40:45

So what's but yeah. So what's the consequences of a president who goes too far if you have a system that doesn't permit prosecution of a president that goes too far? If if if the president hour to make

Brett Johnson [: 00:40:57

that state to

Steve Palmer [: 00:40:58

to state

Norm Murdock [: 00:40:58

I'll tell you what, nobody nobody is talking about the flip side of that coin. What kind of a president are we going to have who is fearful?

Steve Palmer [: 00:41:07

Well, that's right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:41:08

Well Legitimately fearful Sure. That every Tom, Dick, and Harry prosecutor across the country can hail him justifiably or not and, you know, in front of a grand jury, get him indicted, and he has to answer for it as a private person after he leaves office. Right? So Obama hitting the 16 year old American, okay, with a missile. Right? No trial. No court. No nothing. Each and and and and dumb old Ketanji Brown Jackson actually asked, well, what if the president orders in an assassination? Hey, lady who doesn't can't define what a woman is, Ketanji Brown Jackson, are you telling me you don't think in American history the president hasn't authorized an assassination?

Steve Palmer [: 00:41:57

Like to

Norm Murdock [: 00:41:58

Like what Jamil Castro? Like Soleimani

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:01

Soleimani.

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:02

The John Donald j Trump eliminated

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:07

the Rams. Hussein. Yeah. What

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:09

is she talking about? It we've authorized torture.

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:13

Osama bin Laden? We

Brett Johnson [: 00:42:15

Well, yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:15

I mean, these are assassinations for us.

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:17

These are assassinations. I don't know, like, I don't

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:19

know what What she's meeting them.

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:21

She's she's in other uniform.

Brett Johnson [: 00:42:22

Unless she's meeting outside of a war situation.

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:24

Right. So Just I'm I'm still actually gonna kill this guy. Better question.

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:27

And we're not at war with Iran Well, true. And he killed Soleimani.

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:31

Yeah. So where do you draw the line? True. So where do you draw the line? There's no declaration of war, so we kill Soleimani. Is that an assassination? Well, yes. By a certain definition, you have

Brett Johnson [: 00:42:39

to do it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:40

So can this Soleimani take

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:42

Trump Trump? What if the president what if the president ordered an assassination of somebody who is seeking to prosecute him?

Brett Johnson [: 00:42:50

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:51

Sure. That's different. That's the point you're making, Brett, is that's different. Sure. That's that's different. Yeah. So can you prosecute him for that? Right. And

Brett Johnson [: 00:42:57

and that's that's the question that's true.

Norm Murdock [: 00:43:00

Look, I

Steve Palmer [: 00:43:01

always look at this from a legal standpoint. How do you create a legal standard, a line that is relatively straight and understandable

Brett Johnson [: 00:43:09

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:43:09

Through this minefield of the cesspool of of possible facts. Right. That's what's difficult to do. And it's it's sort of reminds me of, like, I think it was Adams who that we created the government. And what kind of government have you created? A republic, sir, if you can maintain it. You know, it's like it it the implication of our government is we have to have some civility, and we don't.

Norm Murdock [: 00:43:27

So, Steve, as you know, we have laws against murder. We have laws against, using a gun to rob a bank. We have all kinds of laws and they get disobeyed all the time. What really this comes down to is the American people need to be damn careful about who they elect as president. Number 1. Right? They have to get to know the person during the, during the, primary The

Brett Johnson [: 00:43:52

dating the dating season.

Norm Murdock [: 00:43:54

During the primary. Right. Right. We need to have presidential debates. We need to elect. I mean, some of this relies on good faith. There is no law that's gonna permit that's gonna prevent the president from doing any number of despicable illegal criminal things. Right? We give the president incredible power.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:15

The question is if the president uses those powers in a way that benefits the country or he thinks he does and he's acting in good faith and maybe, you know, maybe he's

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:26

So look. Maybe maybe

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:27

he He sends Seal Team 6 to go do something.

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:30

Maybe you've created a standard here that makes some sense. So, look, everybody says, well, how can you get in the minds of somebody else to figure out what their intent is? Well, we do it all the time. So anybody's ever been in the criminal justice system knows that that's how it works.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:42

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:42

Like, the if you if you're acting in a certain way, so if I'm acting on purpose to commit a murder, it's different than if I, accidentally run into somebody and kill them. Those are how do you know it's an accident? We have to look at all the facts. We have to look at the circumstances. A jury gets to figure it out. Maybe that's where they draw the line. The court's gonna have to have an initial showing of or or require an initial showing that this is something that a president did that, was that the intent was self serving and personal and not on not an intent to benefit the country. That may be

Norm Murdock [: 00:45:15

I'm with Trump's lawyers. And I'm not with Trump's lawyers because of Trump. I'm with Trump's lawyers because I don't want I don't want the social circus of of former presidents, whether it's Barack Obama or Bill Clinton or whoever, being hauled into court. And and and then therefore when they are president knowing they can be held into court, they won't be a good question.

Steve Palmer [: 00:45:45

Is whether the president's act and this is back to your intent point. The question is whether the president's acting

Norm Murdock [: 00:45:50

I don't wanna get to that question.

Steve Palmer [: 00:45:51

In an official capacity. Yeah. Because nobody here, and I don't even think you, Norm, would say you can't prosecute a president who killed his wife or she if it's a she killed her husband while in office.

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:00

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:00

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:00

You should be able to do that. Exactly. You should be able to prosecute that person. Right. Impeach, prosecute, send to prison. But the question is when you get to this blurry line where is it an official act? Is it not an official act? And there's gonna have to be a preliminary showing whether this is an official act or not. Otherwise, you can't if if if they if they can make that showing that it's an official act, then I say immunity applies. If they can't, then immunity doesn't apply.

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:24

But we're in a gray area here, and how they navigate the line through the gray area will be interesting to see.

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:29

We need immunity. Not every president's gonna have a $175,000,000 to put into escrow so he can appeal a crock pot state, you know, a crack pot state, court.

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:43

It's insanity.

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:44

It's insanity. I don't know. And and for that kind of criminal, just being taken to court is the punishment.

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:51

I mean, look, this is the law up front. This is the law fair concept that we're what's not unlike the seizure of Montgomery Ward. Right? The government just takes over and and can do it at once. It's law fair. They take you know, you can and then how are you gonna win that if you don't have the financial backing or at least the public backing to donate to your cause

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:12

The way to win it

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:13

to fight it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:14

Is to have immunity upfront. The Supreme Court, you know, you know, firemen, cops, the Secret Service, the FBI, a lot of people in the government have immunity for all kinds of different things.

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:26

They do.

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:26

Our government needs to give

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:28

But they don't have immunity for criminal acts.

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:29

I understand that. And I think the one big exception, except for, you know, they could say murder. They could say, you know, they could name a few felonies.

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:40

I think that But

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:41

everything else

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:42

It's gonna have to fit into official capacity. And and if you define that as what kind of felony they're committing gonna be able to do that. It's gonna have to fit into an official capacity standard on some level. I think that's the only way through it now that I'm thinking it through and talking it out.

Brett Johnson [: 00:47:53

Seems pretty at least those are your barriers.

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:56

It's not logical because what will happen is every single thing the president does can be viewed as both personal

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:03

Well, that's why that's why

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:04

and official. Look, I live I swim in

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:07

a gray area of murky water of a justice system.

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:09

Every decision a president makes But

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:11

at least you can put words to it. Yeah. In official capacity. Now what does that mean? Well, it's gonna take years to figure that out, but at least we have something to start with. And the question is official capacity.

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:19

Do you want that figuring out process to happen in in courts? And I don't. I don't. I don't. I

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:26

absolutely do.

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:26

I I I want our presidents to be able to retire with dignity and move on.

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:31

An official capacities look. If you let Congress define that, it's still gonna have to be interpreted by the courts. So Congress will say, we prohibit blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Let's let's assume there's some legislation that defined official capacity.

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:43

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:43

And, even that's gonna be subject to interpretation. So eventually, the court's gonna have to sort it out. That's just that's what the job that's what their job is.

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:51

We have impeachment in in, you know, that's that for things that happen that Congress knows about in real time, they can impeach the president. Now the question is, since the president controls the armed forces, could he be like Andrew Jackson and just give the middle finger to the Supreme Court and say, no. I'm marching the Cherokee out of their their nation. We're we're I'm doing the Trail of Tears. Yeah. You know? Biden's already flipped off the the the courts

Brett Johnson [: 00:49:18

with the the the loan forgiveness. He's already done that. He's doing it again. He's ready to rip it out again.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:23

Exactly.

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:24

Is that against the law?

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:25

Sure it

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:25

is.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:26

And and what What did you give him a new course? Congress has flinched, and they have decided not to impeach Biden. And there's several reasons they could impeach Biden. He's not defending our borders. He took a protect and defend oath when he was sworn in, and he's not

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:41

Well, what what high crime and misdemeanors he committed?

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:45

Violating the constitutional duty to protect and defend I

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:47

don't know that that's a crime.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:49

Yeah. Well, I mean, is

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:51

that a high crime or we went through this with Trump. It's like, what what is a high crime or misdemeanor?

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:55

As the Supreme Court has noted in the past, the crime is defined by congress, by their vote.

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:01

Well, well, see

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:01

That's how that's how they get to well, they impeach Trump twice.

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:05

That's what I say. This was this was Trump's argument. This was Trump's argument. What high crime and misdemeanor have I committed Exactly. By, you know, anyway. Yeah. Right. Look.

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:13

We we beat the horse. The Supreme Court's gonna rule, and I I suspect it'll rule quicker than,

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:17

You think quick. Yeah. That's what talking heads will say. It will be the final decision of the session, and it'll be remanded back to that wacky judge. And, therefore, this trial won't be able to take place.

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:28

I agree with all that. But that but that is a decision. You know, they're they're they're gonna say we need more facts. Go back and decide whether this was official capacity or not and give us a definition of official capacity, and then we'll test that.

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:39

And that's a way to wiggle out of this. Well, it's a It's a it's

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:42

a wiggler. It's a way to wiggle out of it, and it is also a way to practice judicial restraint. It's not the US Supreme Court's job to dictate policy and practice and make law. That's what they did in Roe in the 1st place, and it was a disaster. So look, there's a there's a fine line to walk there, and I'm not necessarily agreeing. But if they send it back and say, you need to tell we need a fact finding hearing to know exactly this. You give us a legal decision on whether this is an official act, and then we'll review that. So our standard is it's gotta be an official act or not an official act.

Steve Palmer [: 00:51:12

You tell us whether that is or not here, and then we'll go back and review it. But either way, the the outcome is the same, Norm. It gets kicked down the road.

Norm Murdock [: 00:51:19

So so while I have your dander up and enormous practicing, practical witch witchcraft here, because I like I like clear messages. I like guardrails. I like clarity. And our Supreme Court in this, students for fair admission versus Harvard case is now now what I said back then last year is happening with Dave Yost giving advice to state universities and colleges, where he said, because of that decision on admissions, I am telling you that the state of Ohio will not defend your ass in court. I, as attorney general Davios, will not defend you in court if you have race based scholarships. And so now that is a big issue in Ohio. There the school of journalism in Athens, Ohio U, School of Journalism

Steve Palmer [: 00:52:16

One of the biggest ones in the country. Right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:52:18

They Yeah. They did not award 12 race based scholarships totaling $46,000. So small beer, but I'm sure to a student that's that's significant money. They did not award the race based, scholarships because of the Dave Yost letter and the dean of that school is flipping out. She is saying it is absolutely racist on the part of Yost and other people to say that, scholarships intended for black students are discriminatory against white students. She said to think that way is itself racist. So the Supreme Court had in its hands the ability with this admissions case. What I'm saying, Steve, why didn't they just say race based anything is wrong? Like,

Steve Palmer [: 00:53:15

what the hell is Hold on. It wasn't an issue in the case whether scholarships scholarships aren't an

Norm Murdock [: 00:53:21

issue in the case. I'm saying it wasn't. But the concept of racial discrimination, Title 6, once again, rears its ugly head, and the constitution itself of equal protection. Right?

Steve Palmer [: 00:53:34

Look. This is common law 101. You can't decide cases that aren't in front of the court. Courts are there to decide cases and controversies.

Norm Murdock [: 00:53:42

Well, okay. I dude, I get you. But we just talked about presidential immunity. And the and yesterday, the questioning by the Supreme Court was about all kinds of hypotheticals.

Steve Palmer [: 00:53:53

Well, it doesn't mean it

Norm Murdock [: 00:53:54

It wasn't about the issue

Steve Palmer [: 00:53:55

that far. So but we just look. We just talked about this. So what what do I think the Supreme Court's gonna do? I think they're gonna remand it for more information and get us facts we can rely upon to decide the case. And when the court has not done that, it has created disaster. Roe v Wade was a freaking disaster. It basically legislated from the bench.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:12

I gotcha, man. But So here but we have chaos in Ohio now. Mhmm.

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:16

Where It's the court's job to solve the chaos. So it'll go up the ladder, and the Supreme Court will decide it based on the facts in front of it. It can't make up the facts and then decide the law based on what the facts aren't.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:25

So, dude, so so they had a decision that said you can't you can't discriminate based on race to admit the students into the school. It would have been a microstep for them to say nor any other kind of policy on campus. Like scholarships.

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:44

Look. Because I don't think scholarships are the same as admission.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:47

Okay.

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:48

I think you're gonna get a decision that says if you're awarding black scholarships, you also have to award white, or you might get a decision like that. You might get it because that's how we handle, male female stuff. I mean, look, there's there's there's more nuance to that question. What kind of scholarship is it? Can whites even apply? Is Yost action not defending universities? That's a that's got its own constitutional ramifications.

Norm Murdock [: 00:55:11

He interpreted the Harvard case to mean that you can't judge race.

Steve Palmer [: 00:55:16

So he did what lawyers do. We say, here's a precedent. We're gonna push that precedent a little bit further. Yes. And then we're gonna let the court tell us whether that's that's right. And if the court says that's okay, the next person's gonna push it even further. Or maybe the court says, no, Yost is, this is wrong. You can have a race based scholarship.

Steve Palmer [: 00:55:31

And then, at least now, we've created a boundary. That's the common law, man. It's been that way since, 12/15.

Brett Johnson [: 00:55:38

I I so the scholarship before that. So the scholarships awarded are university scholarships, not a private scholarship.

Norm Murdock [: 00:55:45

Well, the scholarships are funded by all kinds of private people.

Steve Palmer [: 00:55:48

Oh, they see But

Norm Murdock [: 00:55:49

one one of the

Brett Johnson [: 00:55:50

Exactly. But that's the issue. If I have a 1,000,000,000,000 dollars and I want to give it to black kids

Norm Murdock [: 00:55:56

Then go ahead and do that.

Brett Johnson [: 00:55:58

But but but That's what I'm saying. Is that what that is? Well Is it school scholarship or is it private? Well, I'm

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:04

gonna answer your

Brett Johnson [: 00:56:05

question. Okay. Okay.

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:06

If I can.

Brett Johnson [: 00:56:07

No. No.

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:07

No. I'm sorry. So Clarence Page, for example, a journalist, black journalist, is one of the donors for that scholarship program. Right? And he gets a major tax deduction, right, when he contributes funds. He doesn't get a deduction if he just, Clarence Page, writes a check and says, hey, Normie Murdock, I'm I'm gonna help you pay your tuition. Here you go.

Steve Palmer [: 00:56:29

Well, he could. I mean, they he would just there'd be one more level, and they'd have to create a 5 1 c 3 and a 5 1 c 3 would do a lot of scholarship.

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:35

Gives me a check. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:56:37

How many no. That's a deduction. So he's gonna create a 51c3, and it'll filter through that. So is it That's why you create the foundations to do the tax stuff. That's right. And then you have a question. So say that happens. Say he say a 501c3 gives a scholarship to a black student and a black student only and only if they intend to attend

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:58

We have a

Steve Palmer [: 00:56:58

a public university. So

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:59

Yeah. We we have institutions

Steve Palmer [: 00:57:01

So by the university That's the

Norm Murdock [: 00:57:03

Negro College Fund.

Steve Palmer [: 00:57:04

By the It's a perfect example. No. No. No. I'm saying earmarked only for a public institution. So I'm gonna give you we're gonna give you, $10,000 a year for 4 years if you attend the Ohio State University only if you're a black student. Now is the Ohio University, quote, complicit in that if they accept the money and admit the student? Or

Norm Murdock [: 00:57:23

That is exactly the case that Yoast is addressing.

Steve Palmer [: 00:57:25

Yeah. Exactly. To me, that's a dicier question. That's a dicier question. I would think it would turn on something like this. If the university only accepts such private scholarships from one race over another, then that's a problem.

Brett Johnson [: 00:57:40

That's a problem.

Steve Palmer [: 00:57:40

But if they accept all private scholarships for every race, every creed, every gender, every, mid gender or whatever, sis, whatever nonsense they have. As long as they do it to everybody and they open up the floodgates for all of it, I think that's probably gonna be okay. The the the issue is one that has to be litigated on fact based questions because there's too many possible facts.

Brett Johnson [: 00:58:01

Yeah. Because there are because the Hayden walking into his junior year at UC, now he is he has availed to him scholarships for male nurses only.

Steve Palmer [: 00:58:10

Yeah. There you go. So is that so only males get this scholarship, is that constitutional for UC I don't know. To, take the money?

Brett Johnson [: 00:58:18

I mean, it can come in question. I don't know. I mean, I'm just bringing it up as an example. I don't I don't know.

Steve Palmer [: 00:58:22

I don't think there's a constitutional problem with that. I don't think there's a constitutional problem with having a black only scholarship as long as it's privately funded. Now if the if the university is is giving aid only to black students

Brett Johnson [: 00:58:33

That's a problem.

Steve Palmer [: 00:58:35

That's a different story.

Brett Johnson [: 00:58:35

Yeah. I think so too.

Steve Palmer [: 00:58:36

I think an obvious different story. Yeah. If the university is accepting scholarships from 501c threes, and as long as they're not discriminating, which 501c3 they're accepting, I think the US Supreme Court's gonna say that's probably okay. Yeah. Well Because look, I that's the the whole notion here is we want this the private sector to act. We don't want the government to act.

Norm Murdock [: 00:59:04

So I would answer Brett and you with, a little Ketanji Brown Jackson logic. Okay? I can't define

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:13

a woman. Is there such a thing?

Norm Murdock [: 00:59:14

I can't define a woman or a man. I can't define black or white. What are we gonna do? Have race courts? How do we decide who is black? Is Obama black or white? He's 50% of each according to him. So which one is he? I agree. It's all bullshit.

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:30

Let the set the government doesn't decide it. I almost

Norm Murdock [: 00:59:32

said the f bomb. The freaking Supreme Court could have said what Martin Luther King said. Could have said, we're we're color blind. No race What's anything.

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:45

The issue, Norm, though, is Anything. What's the government action?

Norm Murdock [: 00:59:48

The government action is selecting who the scholarship awardees are, right, based on race.

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:55

Who selects that?

Norm Murdock [: 00:59:56

The the the university.

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:57

I thought we were taught you said, in this case, it was a 501c3 That

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:01

gives them money. The university then selects the applicants for the scholarships.

Brett Johnson [: 01:00:06

So Okay.

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:07

The Okay. The issue is It's funded by private?

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:10

It's funded by private. Okay. So I think the court may have a

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:12

problem with that. Okay.

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:14

I think what's gonna have to happen is the 501c3 is gonna have to select which They

Brett Johnson [: 01:00:18

have to do the job. Yes. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:20

Is that different for you?

Brett Johnson [: 01:00:21

Oh, it totally is. Alright.

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:22

So if you have a fireman's union

Brett Johnson [: 01:00:24

Totally agree.

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:25

Let's say it's a fireman's union, and they wanna give scholarships to only sons and daughters of firemen. Right?

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:33

Now say the university say the unit so you would cut I I gotta I gotta talk this through out loud.

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:38

Yeah. Go ahead, man.

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:39

If you have a university that's taking private money to fund a scholarship Yeah. And the terms of the taking the money says it has to be a black student. And then the university creates selection criteria, identifies the student, the student a bunch of students apply and they pick.

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:55

That's right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:56

And it's a black student.

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:57

And o o u backed out of that.

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:59

Okay. Now the next question so there's a couple different ways that turns. That could be deemed okay as long as they do not limit, their participation in that process to only blacks. Because they may also say white nurses. They may also say white male nurses. They might you know, as long as they open that process up to everybody and it's applied equally, that would be my defense from the university standpoint. If the university refuses to participate in a KKK scholarship for white only students and says, no, we're not gonna do that. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:01:33

But we will do the black one. I think now we have a problem.

Norm Murdock [: 01:01:36

Yeah. Or or or take it take it out of politics and just say it's for Swedish students. Right? No.

Steve Palmer [: 01:01:42

No. No. I want it in the most controversial terms you can possibly imagine. Black student and KKK white student. Gotcha. Okay. Now Because that's how you have to decide these things because that's where it always goes. I'm just

Brett Johnson [: 01:01:51

gonna go.

Norm Murdock [: 01:01:52

Me, those are not the, those are not the opposite poles of of this, but that's okay. No.

Steve Palmer [: 01:01:58

But you it did not look. They they are it is a controversial way to say it. Because if you're saying I want only blacks or in, then you have to be willing to have it every single way.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:07

So nothing I've said is anti black at all.

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:09

Of course not.

Brett Johnson [: 01:02:09

No. No. No. No. No.

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:10

Nothing I've said either.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:11

84% of OU's journalism students are I don't know how they figured this out, but they're claiming they're white. Okay? Which leaves 16% for non whites.

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:23

Mhmm.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:24

Well, African Americans happen to be 13%, so that fits pretty well. So I don't know if it's a representative student body or not.

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:31

Doesn't make any difference to me.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:32

I'm a little outraged that they're even able just like the US Census, I'm outraged that they even keep track of race because because we I'm

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:42

with you.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:43

We are such a melange culture now. There are so many children that are Look.

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:49

It's a melting pot. Exactly. Right.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:51

Why are we tracking? Who is what race?

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:54

Those are bigger policy driven questions. Right. Now the issue is trans constitutionality. So if the u if if Ohio University says, we will participate, mister Black scholarship fund 501c3 organization. We'll participate with you. And by the way, we're gonna participate in similar endeavors from everybody else. We we are not gonna discriminate whatsoever against any private scholarship donation. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:17

I think that's where that has to fall. I think that's how it has to fall. Otherwise, you can't the special interest groups couldn't reach out to do the job of the special interest groups. Like, if I wanna help

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:28

Just Italian kids.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:29

Italian kids. Or if I wanna help out underprivileged kids who came from Columbus, Ohio. Right. You know, when I had an Eric Jovich scholarship fund. Alright? So this is a perfect example. Yeah. I had Eric Jovich College Scholarship Fund. I worked with the Parker Lee Foundation.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:43

Great organization. Everybody should look them up. In fact, we'll get them as a guest on the show. Yeah. And I had very very specific standards that I wanted to dole out the money. It wasn't black white. It was a a student who was a 3.0 or below, who wasn't who didn't have any exceptional credentials Okay. But showed potential.

Steve Palmer [: 01:04:04

Okay. Because I was that kid. Yeah. And, you know, I I Mhmm. I was not the 4 point o. Although, I could have been if I would have been able if I'd have ever learned how to apply. I wanted the average kid. Mhmm.

Steve Palmer [: 01:04:16

I didn't care if that kid was white. I didn't care if that kid was a woman. I didn't care if that kid was black. Turns out everybody who won the scholarship was, in fact, black because we worked with Directions for Youth that helped inter intercity kids, Yeah. To dole out the scholarship. But I didn't want the straight a top student. I wanted the mediocre student who had potential to go excel, because I think those are the people that get that that have the have a lot of potential and get the least amount of help.

Norm Murdock [: 01:04:40

Yeah. I like that. That you had criteria that are not race based.

Steve Palmer [: 01:04:44

But it could have been. I could have said, I only want, white kids from Reynoldsburg because Eric was a white a white Jewish kid from Reynoldsburg. Because he was a white Jewish kid from Reynoldsburg. Yeah. I can do that if I want to, and I think the government shouldn't be able to tell me not.

Norm Murdock [: 01:04:58

No. But I think if you hand your money over to the government and say, now you're gonna pick the white Jew that is the only race and the only religion that qualifies for this, then I do think there's a problem.

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:12

I only so that's where I disagree. I think there's only a problem with that if it is discriminately administered. So if the if the university only takes money from 1 group, and and participates in that process with 1 and excludes others Yeah. That's a problem. If they open up the doors to everybody, I think they're gonna be permitted to do it. So it's either all or nothing. Now you because as soon as they start choosing who they're gonna do it, now you got equal protection problems.

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:38

Yeah. I don't think any government official should be involved in selecting anything based on race, whether it's farm subsidies, scholarships.

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:47

I didn't say should. I said that's how I think it's coming down.

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:49

Yeah. Not Now look,

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:50

I would prefer that

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:52

the private should based on how I think it should

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:54

I know. What I'm saying is I Yeah. I'm talking legally speaking. I think that's how it comes down. Yeah. I would prefer a scenario where the government doesn't participate in any of it and the private entity selects who the who the Kellogg gets to.

Brett Johnson [: 01:06:06

Take the money and

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:07

I would much prefer that.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:08

Yeah. Absolutely. Like like

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:09

That's how it should be.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:10

Like the United Negro College Fund.

Brett Johnson [: 01:06:12

That's how

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:12

it's It's

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:13

a private entity. They make the selection

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:16

and there's no state action whatsoever. Right.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:18

That's exactly problem

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:20

with that. I would

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:21

even give money to that.

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:22

If the state is gonna enter the arena, then it has to enter it equally. Yeah. And it has to open up doors to everybody. Right. The state is already in the arena, so I think it's going to come down that as long if they're in the arena, they have to open up the doors to everybody. So my prediction here at the roundtable, that's how this comes down. We'll know in about 10 years probably.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:42

Well, title 9 What's going

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:45

on a while too?

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:46

Oh, gosh. Okay. You you wanna make this as quick?

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:49

Do it quick. Yeah. Let's do it.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:50

Yeah. I'm sorry. No. You're good. Yeah. Well, these are complicated topics.

Brett Johnson [: 01:06:54

They are. They are.

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:55

We're solving the world's problems.

Brett Johnson [: 01:06:56

We love it.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:57

They flush it out. Exactly. And as always, I learn from you 2 guys a lot. So this is educational for me. Title 9, recently the Department of Education, Department of Justice at the federal level have now added gender identity, as part of what is protected within title 9. As we know, governor DeWine vetoed and then was overrode on house bill 68. So we know in Ohio that our legislature has told the governor, oh, no. We are protecting, title 9, females, sports in Ohio and educational rights.

Norm Murdock [: 01:07:38

DeSantis in Florida has said that this federal title 9 interpretation will not stand in his state. He is going to, disobey it, and obviously, Biden's administration will take him to court. So I find it interesting I find it interesting that if this does go to court, my favorite justice today, Tautangi Brown Jackson, who testified during her confirmation hearings that she could not tell the senator from Tennessee what what a woman is because she's not a biologist. If title 9 and gender identity, if that issue goes to SCOTUS, Ketanji, I'm afraid you're gonna have to define.

Steve Palmer [: 01:08:27

Well, title 9 is gonna have to the the the legislative branch of government is going to have to define it. So you can say a you could define a frog as a human. Right? You can do that as long as the definition is says, alright, a frog is hereby human for purposes of this code. Yeah. Alright. So that's how the case is gonna get reviewed. It's gonna get reviewed on 2 levels. 1, is it overbroad or or or I forget that.

Steve Palmer [: 01:08:49

I I misspoke. The first level is what is the statutory authority of Congress to act? In other words, do they have the regulate regulatory ability to act grounded in a constitutional power? And they do here. It would be the commerce clause or, you know, whatever the hell they they want. Yeah. And then the second is, does the law pass constitutional muster? Is there anything about the law?

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:10

Well, and can the can the executive branch widen the interpretation beyond gender into gender identity.

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:19

I thought there was a law passed. No. So we're talking about administrative bullshit.

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:24

Administrative decision to add gender identity.

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:27

They're gonna do here's then then the Yeah. I take it all back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is a Biden administration Executive order.

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:32

DOE and DOJ To DOJ

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:34

To interpret interpretation.

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:34

Yeah. I got you. Okay. That that includes not just

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:37

bio women,

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:42

but men

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:42

who think about it. Evaluated under something like something called the Administrative Procedure Act. Is it has that been followed? What's the rule making power to do this? That's the sort of procedural grounding for this. And then they're gonna have to decide, is there authority? And here's where I have sort of found my hope for the country, is that the more the executive branch tries to do this kind of nonsense with the court that we have, the more opportunity we have to gut the administrative process. Yeah. So this is the Chevron doctrine.

Norm Murdock [: 01:10:12

The real amendment.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:13

And this is like, you push this so far. You stick your neck out that far, it's gonna get cut off. Mhmm. Yeah. It's gonna get cut off. He's doing it with student loans. He's doing it with all sorts of things. Mhmm.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:22

And or maybe, COVID restrict I mean, it's like all this nonsense. Eventually, the Supreme Court is gonna have to say, not only can you not do this, this is an opportunity to reel in years of the administrative, rough shot over our constitution.

Brett Johnson [: 01:10:37

You went foot too far out in the deep ocean.

Norm Murdock [: 01:10:40

And we're a common sense show. So when Marsha Blackburn asked Ketanji, what is a woman? And she says, I can't tell you.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:50

Right. It's all bullshit.

Norm Murdock [: 01:10:51

We we've lost our common sense in this country.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:54

Well, no. It's it's no. The common sense isn't lost. It's just it's buried because people are too afraid to speak common sense because they don't wanna piss off their the these other idiots who are on their political right, far right, or far left.

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:05

Clearly, DeWine was worried about it. He's worried about

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:08

nonsense.

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:08

He's worried about offending men with penises who's wanna pretend that they're women.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:13

People are

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:14

afraid. People can't just look at that and say that's ridiculous.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:17

People are afraid to speak the truth anymore because of

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:19

It's ridiculous. That's not a woman. You know, I mean Alright.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:22

Well, with that, we're gonna wrap it up. We have been at this quite some time. I guess we did tackle some pretty complex and deep heavy stuff. So forgive us. You can even break it down in chunks and, watch it a little bit at a time, folks, because there there were some big I felt like I dominated the conversation too. So sorry about that.

Brett Johnson [: 01:11:38

Well, you've been gone for 2 weeks. You had to pent up.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:40

To get it out. You were pent up.

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:42

You're you're our legal expert.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:44

Yeah. Expert's the wrong word.

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:45

I'm I'm I'm the scab picker. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:47

That's the wrong word. That keeps that

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:49

keeps picking open ones.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:51

So You know? Alright. Well, this has been Combat Sits, Ohio brought to you by Harvard Business Planning.

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:56

He's trying to enjoy his coffee

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:57

and, you know. We're bad with jumping on.

Brett Johnson [: 01:12:00

I love it.

Steve Palmer [: 01:12:01

Alright. Well, you can check us out on all sorts of media platforms, including, Facebook. We were on YouTube. We got Parler. I think we got Parler. We got, Rumble or something? Rumble. I don't know. Anyway, wherever we are, we are.

Steve Palmer [: 01:12:13

And you can check us out on all those places or the easiest places. Go to common sense ohio show dot com. Check out all the backlog of episodes, catch up. There's lots of great stuff there. It's not just, you know, it it transcends time, I think. Like, this is one of those discussions that there's there's really a lot of depth to it. But and, anyway, we are coming at you right from the middle each and every week, at least until now.