Driving Government Modernization: Tales from GovTech Innovators | The Pair Program Ep. 41

Tim Winkler: 00:00:04

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

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a front row seat to candid conversations

with tech leaders from the startup world.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler,

the creator of hatchpad.

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And I'm your other host, Mike Gruen.

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Join us each episode as we bring

together two guests to dissect topics

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at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

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Welcome back.

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Another episode of The Pair Program.

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Uh, Tim Winkler here, Mike Gruen, uh, my,

uh, co host Mike, what's going on, man?

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I feel like we haven't, uh, seen

each other since the holidays.

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Yeah, it's going all right.

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Mike Gruen: Things, you know, uh, the

weather in DC is always fun, up and down,

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cold, snow, rain, whatever, it's all good.

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What about you?

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How you doing?

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Tim Winkler: Good, good, good

weather, uh, pitch there.

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So let's talk about the weather.

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I'm good, man.

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Um, I was actually listening to

a podcast this morning and it was

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talking about how Chipotle is kind

of scaling up staff right now.

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Uh, did you know that

there's a burrito season?

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I did not.

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Yeah.

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Burrito season is March to

May, so Chipotle is gearing up.

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I'm pretty pumped.

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Is there like a, uh, a go to, go

to burrito that you, uh, you roll

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Mike Gruen: with?

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So I'm a big fan of California tortilla,

which is like a local DC, um, chain.

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Um, I've been going there since

the, like the, one of the first

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franchises in Bethesda and I

know the owners and, um, yeah.

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But is it that white

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Tim Winkler: case?

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So they have that white case.

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So that's, is there some,

who's known for that good case?

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So I think it's, uh, well, maybe it's

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Mike Gruen: not, I mean, I like

their, theirs, but in Avon, um, I

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don't know, but they make some really

good, like interesting, uh, burritos,

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like they mix it up a little bit.

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So I just like to.

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I like to do like Korean barbecue

burrito or something a little

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different or the, the shrimp one,

like not a traditional French toast

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Rob Murtha: burrito.

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Mike Gruen: Yeah.

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I mean, back in the day they had

a tie, they had a tie burrito.

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That was amazing.

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I love it.

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That's sick.

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That's awesome.

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It was

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Tim Winkler: great.

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Yep.

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Breakfast burritos too are killer.

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Had one as well.

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They're a little young

on potatoes in there.

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Yep.

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Rob Murtha: So hungry.

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Tim Winkler: We checked

weather, we checked burritos.

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Let's move on.

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Um, all right.

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I'm, uh, I'm pumped to

tackle, uh, today's topic.

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So if, if you've been a listener of the

pod, you know, that we've been releasing

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a number of these episodes that are

centered around tech modernization

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across different areas of the government.

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So some of those past ones

have been like how to innovate

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and agencies like defense or.

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Go to market strategies for like dual

use tech startups trying to break their

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products in the government markets.

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Um, today we're going to dive a

little bit deeper into, you know,

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how engineering and product folks are

actually like implementing solutions

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for federal government customers.

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Um, so we've got a couple of tech

leaders with us, uh, both have been very

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involved in, in digital transformation

and in the public sector for.

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A number of years, Rob, uh, Murtha,

uh, CEO and founder of adjective.

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Rob brings a lot of experience to

the table within, um, areas of big

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data analytics, product design, user

centered, uh, design UX research, uh,

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private sector and government, uh,

portfolios he's, he's worked with.

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So, um, uh, appreciate Rob being with us.

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And also Rob served as a.

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Uh, a senior analyst for the

army for, for a number of years.

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Uh, and then we've got Ken Cato.

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Uh, Kim is the vice president of

DevSecOps and AI at Omni Federal.

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Uh, Ken served as an entrepreneur

in residence at the White House

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Presidential Innovation Fellowship.

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Uh, already said it, DevSecOps is,

is a big part of his, uh, focus.

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Uh, does a lot of work delivering agile

development and solutions to, um, the

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Navy and various other federal agencies.

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Guys.

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Thanks for joining us on the pod.

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Thanks

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Rob Murtha: for having us.

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Yeah.

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Tim Winkler: Good stuff.

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All right.

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Now, before we jump in, we always

kick things off with a fun segment

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called pair me up, Mike, you usually

tee it up, go ahead and kick us off.

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What do you got?

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All right.

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I'm pretty pleased with this one.

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Mike Gruen: Uh, teenagers and Febreze.

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If you have some teenage boys, you

have some stuff to look forward to.

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So that's, uh, that, that was my pairing.

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The last, uh, A couple of weeks,

that's been a, been trying to

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track down some things and Febreze

has definitely come in handy.

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Track down the scent, like

track down what's going on.

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Yeah, a little bit of like,

what, why, what, what is this?

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How old are your boys?

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Uh, one's 17, one's 14.

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Is sports, are they in, uh, I

think one plays baseball, right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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One plays baseball.

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Yep.

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Um, it's entirely just,

uh, he, uh, second base.

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Oh, right.

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He likes third base.

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But, uh, we moved up to the big field

and, uh, as an eighth grader going from

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third to first, that's a big throw.

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So, um, , it's, you know, the

pro, we're on the professional

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size team, so, uh, field rather.

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So, uh, it's a's a, he's

moved over to second base.

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That's a

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Tim Winkler: teenage boys and Febreze.

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You just bring these kids down with.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Freeze when they when

they walk in the door.

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Now, mostly just a bedroom.

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The hamper, especially the hamper.

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It's all that good stuff.

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All right.

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I dig it.

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I can I can see it.

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I can relate to that.

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I'll keep it.

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Mike Gruen: That's for

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Tim Winkler: you.

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I'll keep the kid train.

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I'll keep the kid train going.

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I'm going to go with toddlers and forts.

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Um, so like everybody has, you know,

those, those childhood memories of

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building forts with like, um, you

know, blankets and pillows, but we

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got this gift from my mother in law.

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It's called a nugget couch and this thing

is, Oh dude, they're, they're so cool.

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There's like, they've got an entire like

Instagram, like followers that just like

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put out these crazy ideas of like, Hey,

this is what I did with my nugget couch.

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Rob Murtha: And they vote

on the colors and stuff.

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I mean, it's like the colors

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Tim Winkler: for folks that don't know.

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It's like, um, so it's,

it's, it's a couch.

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It's made out of like four or

five, like big foam pieces.

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And it's pretty sturdy.

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Um, and you can just kind of put

these pieces in different areas

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throughout, you know, throughout

the space that you've got it in.

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So we, we put it in the basement and

we've got it, uh, connected to like

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different pieces of our furniture that

we build, like these little tunnels that

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lead to like a small little ball pit.

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So it's just been a blast, um, for my

daughter and she's just, you know, getting

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into that phase where I think she, she

doesn't quite understand what it is and

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she'll appreciate it here in a year or so,

but I personally am having a lot of fun.

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I think it's, it's a way for adults to

kind of get back into that childhood

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phase of like Fort sort of the shit.

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Yeah.

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So, um, anyways, Yeah,

it's the truth, man.

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It really gets your mind working.

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Like what else can I do

with this thing here?

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You know?

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So anyways, I'm going to go

with the toddlers and forts

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and, uh, and that's it for me.

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Let's, let's kick it over to, uh, to

our guests, Ken, but a quick intro

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and, uh, and, and your pairing.

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Ken Kato: So the pairing I was thinking

about is Massachusetts and Dunkin Donuts.

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So it's my wife.

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So ordering Dunks in the

DMV area of Maryland, D.

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C., Virginia is painful because

I actually had to say things out

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loud, like the full name of things.

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In New England, I just say, large regular.

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That's it.

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Tim Winkler: That's hilarious.

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That's great.

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That's great.

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Yeah.

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I, uh, I'm a fan of Duncan too.

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I think they're facing a little

bit of a lawsuit right now.

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Aren't they?

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Somebody's like trying to come at

them for someone's trying to come at

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them, uh, for, uh, they're using the

American disabilities act saying that

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they were charged a surcharge for oat

milk, um, where, you know, they're

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lactose intolerant and they shouldn't

have to, to pay that service fee.

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It's like, anyways, I, I think,

uh, Duncan's probably just.

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I'm going to poo poo that, just be

like, whatever here, take, take, take

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some money they're doing just fine.

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Pun intended on the

lactose intolerance and the

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Mike Gruen: poo poo.

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Yeah, poo poo, poo

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Ken Kato: poo.

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Mike Gruen: I'm lactose

intolerant, I can make that joke.

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Ken Kato: The biggest dunk related

pun is their catch line, right?

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America runs on dunks, or

dunking, and the basement of the

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Pentagon, there's Dunkin Donuts.

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And that's, that line is

always like murderously long.

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I'm like, oh, America does

literally run on dunks, awesome.

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Tim Winkler: That is so funny.

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Yeah.

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Uh, Rob, how about yourself, man?

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Quick intro and, uh, your pairing.

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Rob Murtha: Yeah.

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Quick pairing.

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Um, I guess similar to Mike,

like my, uh, so like, I guess

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teenage kids and, and, and dances.

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So I got two girls, 12 year old, uh,

12 years old and eight years old.

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Um, the 12 year old is going to

like a Valentine's day dance.

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And it's just like, you know,

I want to be a chaperone.

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I want to, I want to be

like, what's going on.

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It's like a couple of towns away.

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It's just so hilarious.

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So, I mean, we're, we're in

the Valentine's day season, so.

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You know, funny, funny little, uh,

parenting wrinkle there, but I guess, you

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know, we gotta, we gotta get used to it.

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Um, and then quick intro.

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Yeah.

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You, I mean, you covered

my overview pretty well.

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Uh, can it just for, for, you

know, Ken and I know each other

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just from the Kessa run era.

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And Ken's been an awesome

mentor of mine for years.

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I mean, I've always hit him up with

any types of, you know, product

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challenges I've come across,

you know, Um, entrepreneurial

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challenges, technology challenges.

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It's just been really fun.

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Life challenges.

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We both like, you know, know each

other's families really well.

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So it's been fun just to like, you know,

self reflect and zoom out and have someone

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you could rely on like that with Ken.

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So it's, it's great to be

on this podcast with him.

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Um, quick background for me.

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You mentioned it kind of had a, had a

weird pathway, grew up in the Hamptons,

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which was hilarious, went to art school,

um, graduated during the recession

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in Florida, and I was like, uh, WTF.

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Um, I ended up joining the military.

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Nobody served in my family, uh, met

like a hilarious recruiter out at a bar.

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And he was like, Oh, do you want to

be Jason Moore and go the Intel route?

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Um, no, I ended up doing Intel

and definitely wasn't that like,

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other than that, I didn't know

anything about the military.

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I thought it was like Forrest Gump.

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I thought like, you know, someone yelled

at me if I didn't clean my rifle, right.

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Um, so ended up, uh, had, I had

like a really awesome experience.

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I actually wrote like a little

blog on my, on my website.

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A website, uh, talking about like

how we kind of started to introduce

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customer experience elements to

operational stuff, not just like the

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tech scene, but like how, how you can

wrap that around anything, not just,

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you know, innovation, modernization.

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Um, and that's kind of what we did.

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Like we kind of, uh, productized,

uh, like our, our Intel

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capabilities, which is really cool.

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Um, just as like a team, we thought about

it from like a go to market strategy.

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And we just had fun.

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And so like, you know, right, right

after I got done with training, ended

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up deploying Afghanistan and, and

had like a wild experience there, um,

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came back and did some stuff stateside

and then ended up deploying again.

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And it was like a completely

different setting.

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So it was like another, another crazy fun

experience with like different variables.

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Um, from there I became like an

IC, a trade craft instructor, um,

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and, and curriculum developer.

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Um, and that's kind of how I got

exposed to product design and fell

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in love with like, uh, human factors

and, you know, really just building

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experiences for people, um, that

align with either doctrine or tech

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or whatever you're trying to kind

of associate those experiences with.

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Um, and then from there I went to

the FBI and I was a product designer.

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Um, built some really sick products there.

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We can go into that later.

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I'm sure we will.

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When we get into the DevOps stuff

and then, uh, yeah, ended up at

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KR, met Ken, met a bunch of really

cool people, had a blast there.

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Um, and from there I just kind of, yeah,

like you mentioned, bouncing around the

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ecosystem, doing startup stuff, doing

defense stuff, um, super opinionated about

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a lot of things, just having that kind

of like multidimensional background where

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it's been like, you know, operational,

um, you know, Product related stuff, you

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know, product team stuff where I'm like

tactically in the trenches, just trying to

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build things that solve people's problems.

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So I'm just super grateful to have like

stumble into this like kind of community.

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Awesome.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah.

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It's a tight knit community.

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It's so tight knit that we've definitely

had like two or three other folks from

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Kessel Run on the, on our podcast.

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It's like a seven degrees of separation.

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Like, uh, it's, it's wild.

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Um, but I think what's It relevant, right?

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And the reason like we like bringing

those folks in is because Kessel Run

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was a big catalyst for, you know,

like how modernization can get, you

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know, implemented and how there's this

need to fast forward things, right?

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Like, can't, can't just be this slow

as molasses kind of transformation.

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I know that that is a, a very

symbolic thing of trying to

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do business in the government.

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Right.

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But, um, I think, you know, the

reality is that we're in a, We're

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in an interesting time right now.

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And, and we see it, you know, at hatch

anyways, because we, we've, we've done

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a lot of stuff in GovTech back in the

day, and then we switched to commercial

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product, and now we are getting back into

a lot more of this, you know, defense

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tech, dual use tech, there's, there's

certainly a major shift in the technology

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landscape, right, in, in government

towards modernization right now.

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Um, but the reality is.

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You know, there's still a cultural

and a procedural thing, a way of

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doing things in the government.

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Uh, you know, flexibility isn't really a,

a word that you hear thrown around a lot.

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Um, but there is a way to

do it and it is being done.

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And, and, you know, our goal with, with

this episode and with some of the other

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episodes that we've been building here

is, is to build awareness for folks that

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want to be a part of that, or Are building

something that, you know, can, can

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help in one way, shape or fashion here.

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And so, uh, super grateful to

have both of you guys on here.

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What I like too, about the backgrounds

here, we, we hand selected is,

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um, you know, can kind of have

a little bit more of a, like on

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the engineering side of things.

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: 00:13:43

more on that product

and design side as well.

314

: 00:13:46

So, you know, when our listeners,

our audience is usually a pretty

315

: 00:13:50

wide spectrum of folks from

product design, data engineering.

316

: 00:13:54

So we're hoping that we can hit on a few

of these different levels on, on how it's

317

: 00:13:59

done and, and some, some actual examples.

318

: 00:14:02

Uh, before we jump in, maybe it's helpful

just to hear just quick, uh, snippets of

319

: 00:14:07

like a bird's eye view of the type of work

that each of your all's firms are doing.

320

: 00:14:12

Uh, Ken, let's start with you, maybe at

a high level, just some of the work that

321

: 00:14:15

OmniFederal is delivering and the kind

of customers that you're supporting.

322

: 00:14:19

Ken Kato: Sure.

323

: 00:14:19

So today we focused largely

on defense and intel agencies.

324

: 00:14:24

So only about, you know, cut their

teeth in this world with NGA.

325

: 00:14:28

And since then it's gone pretty wide.

326

: 00:14:30

We have a lot of relationship with the

Air Force primarily, between platform

327

: 00:14:33

one, customer one, stuff like that.

328

: 00:14:36

Uh, my personal focus is on AI and

AI product development these days.

329

: 00:14:40

So I just had an idea recently

to, uh, build a small form

330

: 00:14:45

factor version of Code Llama.

331

: 00:14:46

So Code Llama, for those who may not

know, is a fine tuned version of Llama

332

: 00:14:51

for the purpose of code generation.

333

: 00:14:53

And why would I want to build

this when I can get to the cloud?

334

: 00:14:55

Well, that's why.

335

: 00:14:56

Right, the, there is no authority

to operate on AI instantiations

336

: 00:15:00

today, especially open source ones,

but if I build a physical computer

337

: 00:15:04

and drop it in someone's office,

AOs, authorizing officials, know how

338

: 00:15:08

to say yes or no to those things.

339

: 00:15:11

So my motivation there is to spend a

ludicrous amount of money for an H100 GPU

340

: 00:15:16

card, drop it into a box and literally,

you know, travel with a dog and pony show.

341

: 00:15:22

Here's my code.

342

: 00:15:23

Let me hook up to your BS code.

343

: 00:15:25

That's kind of stuff that I've

been working on these days.

344

: 00:15:27

Tim Winkler: Cool.

345

: 00:15:27

Yeah.

346

: 00:15:27

And we'll dissect some of that

as well as like how it's done

347

: 00:15:30

and the process to implement.

348

: 00:15:32

But, uh, Rob, how about yourself?

349

: 00:15:33

A little bit more on the adjective and

the type of work you all are doing.

350

: 00:15:36

Yeah.

351

: 00:15:37

Rob Murtha: Yeah, totally.

352

: 00:15:37

No, that's, that's awesome, Ken.

353

: 00:15:39

I love your approach to it.

354

: 00:15:40

So he's like lean and

practical, which is so exciting.

355

: 00:15:42

I love like your description there.

356

: 00:15:44

So adjective I just

launched about a year back.

357

: 00:15:46

It was like really, um, it was

actually a hilarious way that

358

: 00:15:49

I, uh, I launched my company.

359

: 00:15:51

It was pretty organic.

360

: 00:15:51

Ken was there for like when I initially

kicked it off, but I ended up just

361

: 00:15:55

getting a bunch of like demand and deal

flow, um, commercially and my, uh, my

362

: 00:16:00

mentor and, and, and, and, you know,

boss at the time, uh, Wes over at Clarity

363

: 00:16:05

and other, you know, services company.

364

: 00:16:06

It was like, dude, just jump for it.

365

: 00:16:08

Like being, you know, you, you've

always had like entrepreneurship

366

: 00:16:10

in your blood, very supportive.

367

: 00:16:11

A lot of people around me were like,

Hey, just, you know, give it a shot.

368

: 00:16:14

You know, cause there's been, there's

been situations in the past where

369

: 00:16:17

I've launched startups here and

there that are absolutely hilarious

370

: 00:16:20

and good segues at some point, um,

from from a podcast perspective and

371

: 00:16:24

you know, they, they either weren't

successful or I didn't put enough into

372

: 00:16:27

them or whatever it was this time.

373

: 00:16:29

It was like, I just had a lot of demand.

374

: 00:16:31

So I was like, you know what,

I'm going to give it a shot.

375

: 00:16:33

Don't really have a model to focus on

other than like Rob as a service or, you

376

: 00:16:37

know, startup athlete as a service, but

like my crazy box of, uh, um, and I ended

377

: 00:16:42

up just like straight up like building

the ship as I sailed it a little bit.

378

: 00:16:45

Um, and it was kind of cool.

379

: 00:16:47

I mean, you know, since we started, you

know, we've, we've kind of, uh, went, uh,

380

: 00:16:51

you know, a bunch of different directions.

381

: 00:16:52

And I think like the company's strategy,

um, you know, is, is kind of wrapped

382

: 00:16:56

with, with my vision of what product

design could become for, you know, the,

383

: 00:17:00

the, the, the whole market and what

it could evolve to with the advent of

384

: 00:17:03

generative AI and stuff, and also what

product design can realistically become

385

: 00:17:08

for the DOD and the public sector.

386

: 00:17:10

Um, I think like, you know, it's,

it's really hard to just lift and

387

: 00:17:14

shift perspectives and models and,

you know, you, you don't really,

388

: 00:17:17

you have to start somewhere.

389

: 00:17:18

Right.

390

: 00:17:18

So I'd say the first, you know, three

to five years of, of defense and

391

: 00:17:22

public sector innovation, we just

kind of had to lift and shift what

392

: 00:17:25

was successful in the private sector.

393

: 00:17:27

And we recruited a bunch of people

that had those perspectives.

394

: 00:17:30

Um, and then as you start to iterate,

as you, you know, start to try to

395

: 00:17:34

stitch those things into different

agencies, some of them work better

396

: 00:17:37

with those agencies than others, right?

397

: 00:17:39

You see a lot of, you see civic

tech just like blazing fast.

398

: 00:17:42

You see a lot of these different

organizations just adopting things very

399

: 00:17:45

easily because the way that they're set

up, the paradigm of those organizations

400

: 00:17:49

naturally align with, you know, Kind

of the private sector and some essence

401

: 00:17:53

of a market that, you know, they're

supporting public sector people.

402

: 00:17:55

They have huge hundred thousand user

accounts that are like putting in

403

: 00:17:59

simulating pressure on the features

and, and, and highlighting the

404

: 00:18:02

value of like UX work and stuff

versus defense, which is like.

405

: 00:18:05

a little more industrial, a

little more kind of small market

406

: 00:18:08

segments and, and nuance to how

you, how you go to market, right?

407

: 00:18:12

It's like a little more

challenging and different.

408

: 00:18:15

Um, so it's cool to see all of

those practices evolve and that's

409

: 00:18:18

kind of what I'm focusing on it.

410

: 00:18:19

Um, at adjective, I'm trying to figure

out ways to, you know, commercialize

411

: 00:18:23

product design, commercialize UX

methodologies, commercialize behavioral

412

: 00:18:27

psychology, and make it like super town.

413

: 00:18:29

tangible data driven results

oriented where people want

414

: 00:18:32

to sink their teeth into it.

415

: 00:18:32

And it's not like this, Oh, like make

sure we're satisfying section 508 or,

416

: 00:18:36

you know, some other kind of box check.

417

: 00:18:38

It needs to become this like

really rich thing that's tied

418

: 00:18:41

to success and risk reduction.

419

: 00:18:44

Tim Winkler: It's really fascinating, man.

420

: 00:18:45

I, I, um, I want to talk, maybe just

kind of like point this back to, uh, an

421

: 00:18:53

overarching point that I was reading a

blog that you had written, uh, it was,

422

: 00:18:57

or a social post that you had written.

423

: 00:18:58

It was about value creation, uh, and,

and the, the importance of producing

424

: 00:19:04

value for, for government customers.

425

: 00:19:08

You know, when you're walking

through like an engagement with,

426

: 00:19:12

with a customer, like, how are you.

427

: 00:19:14

You know, how do you get to the point of

like where you're, you're defining what

428

: 00:19:17

value means and like measuring this in

the context of like a digital solution?

429

: 00:19:21

Because I think that's like an area that,

you know, when you talk about end users

430

: 00:19:25

and the government or a specific agency.

431

: 00:19:28

Um, really like, uh, outlining the

specifics of the value that they'll

432

: 00:19:32

see, like, what does that mean to you?

433

: 00:19:34

Like how, you know, when, in that

post, like what, what, what were you

434

: 00:19:37

kind of like trying to allude to?

435

: 00:19:39

Rob Murtha: So something like I've

been really driving towards and

436

: 00:19:42

Ken, Ken will appreciate this.

437

: 00:19:43

And we, we talk about

this frequently together.

438

: 00:19:45

It's like, you know, what's the

equivalent of a marketplace in the DOD?

439

: 00:19:49

Like everyone has a customer,

regardless of whether you're like an

440

: 00:19:51

operational person, whether you're

like an, you know, HR practitioner, a

441

: 00:19:55

quartermaster, logistician, logistician,

You know, everyone has a market.

442

: 00:20:00

Everyone has a customer.

443

: 00:20:01

And like the faster that the DoD, the

faster that these agencies can like

444

: 00:20:05

adopt that mindset, the more kind of

value value focused people will be when

445

: 00:20:09

it comes to any kind of allocation of

capacity, any allocation of resources.

446

: 00:20:14

So what I'm, uh, to answer your question,

I, I think it's really tricky, right?

447

: 00:20:18

Every engagement's a little

different and, you know, you have to.

448

: 00:20:22

immediately start learning is as

soon as you get an opportunity to

449

: 00:20:25

work with one of these customers.

450

: 00:20:27

And I've had a number of engagements this

year, specifically public sector related,

451

: 00:20:30

and some of them are ongoing where, you

know, it's not a one size fits all, right?

452

: 00:20:34

You have to, I always say like model

your market, like understand, you

453

: 00:20:38

know, the elements of your market.

454

: 00:20:40

That, um, you know, introduce,

uh, incentives to the

455

: 00:20:43

people that depend on it.

456

: 00:20:44

And also, like, how, how can you

hold your practitioners and your

457

: 00:20:47

resource allocation accountable?

458

: 00:20:49

So those are two things

I'm very passionate about.

459

: 00:20:51

That's always been tough to measure and

implement in, in, in the government.

460

: 00:20:54

It's just challenging.

461

: 00:20:55

Like, how do you, How do you measure, you

know, how do you manage incentives, right?

462

: 00:20:59

When you have like very fixed policy

that you have to abide by with like

463

: 00:21:02

personnel and GS rates and like

people's ranks and promotion schedules.

464

: 00:21:06

It's all very like tied to policy.

465

: 00:21:07

That's beyond anyone's control.

466

: 00:21:09

There's like hacks that you can like

implement, but, um, Really, it's just

467

: 00:21:13

like, I don't know, I, the way I'd

respond to that is like, it's really

468

: 00:21:17

tied to the specific engagement.

469

: 00:21:19

One example, I'll give

you a great example.

470

: 00:21:20

So I'm working with a customer now and

you know, at the surface level, you see

471

: 00:21:24

everybody asking for the same stuff.

472

: 00:21:26

It's like, I want to be

a DevSecOps organization.

473

: 00:21:28

I want to be a software factory.

474

: 00:21:29

I want to be, you know, like all of

these like kind of big labels that

475

: 00:21:32

are like, you know, there's a ton

of nuance that exists below them.

476

: 00:21:35

Um, and you get in there and you

realize like just having experience in.

477

: 00:21:39

A private industry and then, and,

and be like at a software factory.

478

: 00:21:42

It's like, well, really you're

kind of more of like a skunk

479

: 00:21:45

works, like proof of concept shop.

480

: 00:21:46

Like you don't have the foundation to

do day two ops and, you know, manage

481

: 00:21:50

tier one, tier two, tier three help desk

and solve people's problems when bugs

482

: 00:21:53

surface and like things break and you

have to get stuff back online and whatnot.

483

: 00:21:57

And so like you start interacting

with the customers and you

484

: 00:22:00

know, the first step is like.

485

: 00:22:01

You know, getting them to culture, you

know, culturally getting them to trust

486

: 00:22:04

you and just like listening to them and

not like making them feel uncomfortable.

487

: 00:22:07

Like everyone, everyone has

a really strong opinion.

488

: 00:22:09

Um, and everyone has a perspective

and great experience to learn from.

489

: 00:22:13

Right.

490

: 00:22:13

I think that's something all like

digital transformation, people or

491

: 00:22:16

people supporting modernization

can really continue to kind

492

: 00:22:19

of gut check yourself with.

493

: 00:22:20

That's.

494

: 00:22:20

I got checked myself all the time.

495

: 00:22:22

It's like, you know, did what I, you

know, the way that I've framed advice or

496

: 00:22:26

recommendation or the way I'm like pairing

with this person, is it condescending?

497

: 00:22:30

You know, is it, you know,

how, how am I like seeing them?

498

: 00:22:32

How am I, how am I incorporating their

perspectives, even if they don't have

499

: 00:22:36

like some private industry exposure

or something, because everyone has

500

: 00:22:38

something really useful to contribute.

501

: 00:22:40

And, you know, a lot of the people

you work with are freaking brilliant.

502

: 00:22:43

They've been in these

program office for 20 years.

503

: 00:22:44

They've, done things with like legacy

VX rails that like nobody could imagine

504

: 00:22:48

where they stitch these things together

and deploy like, you know, Tanzu, um,

505

: 00:22:52

instantiations and they're like, you

know, to these like, you know, on prem,

506

: 00:22:56

you know, on prem hardware stacks.

507

: 00:22:58

And it's just, they, they've cobbled

together some really crazy stuff.

508

: 00:23:00

Like, I mean, ton of talent,

uh, talent all over the place.

509

: 00:23:04

Um, and it's kind of like, you know,

be self aware, you know, you know,

510

: 00:23:07

observe the situation, um, yeah.

511

: 00:23:09

And just always, always, always try

to like, I don't know, add, add data

512

: 00:23:13

and fidelity to the way that you

understand what it's going to take

513

: 00:23:15

to get them from moving to a place

of like arbitrary activities to

514

: 00:23:19

we're producing value for something.

515

: 00:23:21

And if there was some form of currency

in this environment, that like user

516

: 00:23:24

group or that customer, whatever,

however you classify it would be

517

: 00:23:27

willing to pay for the activities

that that program office is doing.

518

: 00:23:32

Tim Winkler: Yeah, that's,

that's well said, man.

519

: 00:23:33

And it is interesting because you're

dealing with a group of folks that, you

520

: 00:23:37

know, these end users, um, oftentimes

you said been, been there for 20 plus

521

: 00:23:41

years, you know, that's, that's, there's

value in being able to tap into that

522

: 00:23:46

and just be like, Hey, like, let's,

let's really understand like how things

523

: 00:23:49

have progressed over this timeline.

524

: 00:23:52

Um, we're oftentimes maybe you don't

get that of it, you don't have that,

525

: 00:23:55

uh, that advantage because somebody

has been there just for a few years

526

: 00:23:59

in that role or what have you.

527

: 00:24:01

Um, so it is unique, I think.

528

: 00:24:02

And when you're thinking, talking

about like the government as,

529

: 00:24:04

as that agency being the end

530

: 00:24:06

Mike Gruen: customer.

531

: 00:24:08

I think it's exciting that like that shift

in mindset, like when I worked with the

532

: 00:24:11

government in a number of places, there

was this like sort of captive audience.

533

: 00:24:16

Mindset of like, yeah, it

doesn't have to look good.

534

: 00:24:19

Like whatever, they'll deal with it.

535

: 00:24:21

Like it's like, it's sort of that like

mindset of like, yeah, they'll figure it

536

: 00:24:25

out there, whatever, like they just didn't

really want to put that much effort into

537

: 00:24:29

finding that value for who was essentially

their customer, but their customer had

538

: 00:24:32

no choice but to use them in some cases.

539

: 00:24:35

So there was sort of a, not much incentive

for them to really go after that.

540

: 00:24:39

So I think it's cool to, to sort of

really stress on how important it is

541

: 00:24:42

to think about your, who's using your

product and how to get them to value.

542

: 00:24:46

Rob Murtha: Mike, I totally want

to throw something out there.

543

: 00:24:48

You just reminded me of

something outrageous and fun.

544

: 00:24:50

And Ken's going to love this.

545

: 00:24:51

I'm going to pass it right over

to him, but Ken, you know what?

546

: 00:24:53

This reminds me of good old faths

that we never like really rolled out

547

: 00:24:57

that we still like, yeah, so one of

the things it's so funny, cause to

548

: 00:25:01

go back to your question, how do you

define success for these organizations?

549

: 00:25:03

I think it's more tactical.

550

: 00:25:04

It's all like kind of really understanding

their user groups, their customers,

551

: 00:25:08

kind of what their charter is, what

are they supposed to be delivering?

552

: 00:25:10

If there's like an operational community

at the other end, if they're kind of I

553

: 00:25:22

think one of the, the most interesting

ways to convert an organization from

554

: 00:25:27

like, you know, arbitrary ville to

like, let's generate value for someone

555

: 00:25:31

ville is like, You know, communicating

to them that everything's integrated.

556

: 00:25:37

Um, and that like, it really is.

557

: 00:25:39

And, and, and it's been impossible for

like, even like, you know, the joint

558

: 00:25:42

staff level to really appreciate that

this concept where it's like, if we

559

: 00:25:46

miss spend here, you know, especially,

you know, depending on the amount of

560

: 00:25:49

money, if we don't convert whatever

this kind of experiment is, whether

561

: 00:25:52

that's like a learning case study,

an artifact that can like become a

562

: 00:25:55

product and people can absorb and

learn from and, and make decisions by.

563

: 00:25:59

Um, or legitimately, we build a platform

that like does something like P1, where

564

: 00:26:03

like, you know, they facilitate DevSecOps

for a ton of different customers.

565

: 00:26:07

Like anytime you don't convert, that money

wasted is stealing from another portion of

566

: 00:26:11

your system, whether you like it or not.

567

: 00:26:12

And that portion of your system

could be something local where it's

568

: 00:26:15

like, you know, now, now, now, you

know, chicken wings are a little

569

: 00:26:18

more expensive and it sucks for me.

570

: 00:26:19

And instead of like being inspired

and, and excited to do stuff, I'm

571

: 00:26:23

going to be like a sad sack and

like sit in the house and like just

572

: 00:26:26

not, not think about that thing.

573

: 00:26:27

I should have ideated that.

574

: 00:26:28

The government could purchase

someday and build, you know,

575

: 00:26:30

like everything is integrated.

576

: 00:26:32

So it's like being serious

about your business, right?

577

: 00:26:34

Being serious about your program office.

578

: 00:26:36

Even if you have like some kind of,

I don't know, very, very reasonable

579

: 00:26:40

civilian style, you know, mission set,

it's still contributing to something

580

: 00:26:44

more tactical upstream or downstream.

581

: 00:26:46

And like, Finding ways to kind of

create those threads between everyone.

582

: 00:26:50

And it's like something that you might

not think is contributing to the conflict

583

: 00:26:53

and like Ucom whatever, absolutely is

contributing to influence operations.

584

: 00:26:59

It's contributing to just like the

joy and the confidence that our

585

: 00:27:02

service members have, whatever,

like everything's tied together.

586

: 00:27:05

Like the, the second that people start

adopting that perspective, they'll

587

: 00:27:08

start taking their stuff more seriously.

588

: 00:27:09

Ken, over to you.

589

: 00:27:12

Ken Kato: So the government

fully, you know, is.

590

: 00:27:15

The weird organization and that

it's got the most nonlinear

591

: 00:27:20

longest distance to a custom.

592

: 00:27:23

So if you're thinking about delivering

to like, especially like the defense

593

: 00:27:26

agencies, your ultimate delivery should

be to somebody that's really need this.

594

: 00:27:31

But as a developer, we

don't ever have that.

595

: 00:27:35

Apparently, like customer is unique that

we got to talk to for the operation basis.

596

: 00:27:39

That was, that's what made

customer successful, right?

597

: 00:27:43

So, We're not the only

organization who does this.

598

: 00:27:46

There are plenty of large bureaucracies

who does this on a regular basis.

599

: 00:27:51

I think about, you know, people who have

to lead large companies, like Len Roberts.

600

: 00:27:55

He ran RadarShack, most successful

CEO for RadarShack ever.

601

: 00:27:59

And he said this, This thing all the

time, they're really stuck with me.

602

: 00:28:05

You either are serving a customer or

serving someone who serves a customer.

603

: 00:28:10

So with that in mind, every time I

think about building anything for the

604

: 00:28:14

Department of Defense, for the White

House, any part of the government, I don't

605

: 00:28:18

think about what I want to do with it.

606

: 00:28:20

I can't, right?

607

: 00:28:21

And I also don't necessarily

have a customer to speak to.

608

: 00:28:24

So that means relying on that

20 plus year folks, like, Hey,

609

: 00:28:28

how have you done this and why?

610

: 00:28:31

And that why is what

makes it really revealing.

611

: 00:28:34

Because when you walk into any

government agency as a technologist,

612

: 00:28:38

it's easy to be looking at it and

going, okay, this is old quality tech.

613

: 00:28:43

Sure, it's easy to dismiss it.

614

: 00:28:45

But if you, when you dig deep, there is a

legitimate reason why it's the way it is.

615

: 00:28:50

It's not human laziness.

616

: 00:28:51

It's not the government's

bad in doing software.

617

: 00:28:53

It's not the above.

618

: 00:28:54

It's.

619

: 00:28:56

A lot of really smart people that came

up with the decision maybe a long time

620

: 00:28:59

ago, maybe they haven't updated since,

but there's also a risk to updating it.

621

: 00:29:03

So again, like they still get to

serve the customer mission, and that's

622

: 00:29:06

what we tend to forget to look at.

623

: 00:29:08

So when we look at all the program,

all the technology, especially, No

624

: 00:29:12

one asks a fundamental question,

are their customers happy?

625

: 00:29:15

Because at the end of the day, who

truly gives a shit if I make the

626

: 00:29:19

front end look shiny and newer?

627

: 00:29:21

Like that's just changing

the visual appearance.

628

: 00:29:23

That's not necessarily improving delivery

to the customer or delivering value.

629

: 00:29:28

I just made someone shiny.

630

: 00:29:30

Okay.

631

: 00:29:30

I can wax a car and make it shiny, it

doesn't make the car going faster, right?

632

: 00:29:36

So I keep thinking about that.

633

: 00:29:37

And then looking at those large companies.

634

: 00:29:40

And looking at how they consistently

deliver the same value, like when

635

: 00:29:43

we go to large theme parks, we're

almost guaranteed to have a great

636

: 00:29:47

experience short of the long lines.

637

: 00:29:49

But that being said, think about

the ridiculous logistics, right?

638

: 00:29:53

We're talking like tens of thousands

of employees who all Understand

639

: 00:29:58

the North Star of the theme park.

640

: 00:30:00

The customer has to have fun.

641

: 00:30:03

And they deliver on that every

single time because everyone

642

: 00:30:06

understands the North Star.

643

: 00:30:08

When we go to Castle Run, the North

Star is really well defined, right?

644

: 00:30:11

Deliver software to everyone we love.

645

: 00:30:13

When I did Black Pearl for the

Department of Navy, North Star

646

: 00:30:15

was really, really simple.

647

: 00:30:17

I want to teach the Navy how to do DevOps,

and then I frankly want to retire the

648

: 00:30:21

program because mission accomplished.

649

: 00:30:24

But without understanding the purpose of

why we do something, which is something

650

: 00:30:29

we often overlook, especially as a

technology going into older programs.

651

: 00:30:34

So, the thing that I always like

think about is, I remove myself

652

: 00:30:37

and go, hey, why do you do this?

653

: 00:30:40

Like, just tell me why, and

this is not a criticism, but

654

: 00:30:42

you need to hear why you do it.

655

: 00:30:44

And then at the end of it, that's when

I get to finally start thinking about,

656

: 00:30:48

okay, Let me buy some ideas off of you.

657

: 00:30:50

Is this something that's

going to be valuable to you?

658

: 00:30:52

If I change this way,

is this frustration bad?

659

: 00:30:55

Like tell me what's so hot right

now that you can't get away from it.

660

: 00:30:59

So that's kind of stuff.

661

: 00:31:00

Okay.

662

: 00:31:01

Mike Gruen: Yeah.

663

: 00:31:01

It's interesting.

664

: 00:31:02

Cause like when I, again, going back to

some, a little bit of my experience with

665

: 00:31:05

the government, I, in some cases, some

programs, I felt like I was just wearing

666

: 00:31:08

like these big heavy, like Mittens where

I couldn't actually touch or interact

667

: 00:31:13

with, have the fine grain, like feedback.

668

: 00:31:16

And I'm curious, like, as you work

with, as you, as you think about that,

669

: 00:31:19

if you were going to give advice to,

you know, a company that's trying to

670

: 00:31:22

get into the government, like, how do

you, how do you sort of deal with that?

671

: 00:31:25

Like I was blessed in some ways,

like some of the programs I worked

672

: 00:31:28

on, I did get to talk to the FBI.

673

: 00:31:30

I got to talk to like the analyst

that was going to be the end user.

674

: 00:31:33

And in other cases, they were so

distant and so compartmentalized.

675

: 00:31:37

I just, it was just, it was

a guessing game, and I'm just

676

: 00:31:40

curious, like, what advice you have.

677

: 00:31:43

Ken Kato: The first thing I taught

everybody coming into the White

678

: 00:31:47

House Veterans Innovation Fellowship,

so we mentor the new classes.

679

: 00:31:51

The first thing I teach is

ask a really, really simple

680

: 00:31:53

question and be genuine about it.

681

: 00:31:56

How can I help?

682

: 00:31:58

Those words are surprisingly powerful

because you have, you know, senior

683

: 00:32:02

bureaucrats who spent decades

in the government and just get

684

: 00:32:06

in by just defending themselves,

their decision, their funding.

685

: 00:32:10

So when someone walks in

and says, how can I help?

686

: 00:32:12

And zero agenda, simple question,

they actually hesitate to answer.

687

: 00:32:16

When you ask them again, when they

finally realize, I actually do want to

688

: 00:32:19

know, they It's a long conversation.

689

: 00:32:21

Sorry.

690

: 00:32:25

Mike Gruen: I'm smirking.

691

: 00:32:25

Cause I remember when we asked a similar

question and we did not get the response

692

: 00:32:28

we expected, basically the response

was, I don't, you can't help me.

693

: 00:32:33

Uh, I just have 2 million

I got to spend on you.

694

: 00:32:35

And I don't have time to explain

all the ways you can help me.

695

: 00:32:40

Ken Kato: I remember like

that's still an opening.

696

: 00:32:42

You have a long problem.

697

: 00:32:43

So let's get this.

698

: 00:32:44

Immediate problem solved, but

as I solve it, tell me more.

699

: 00:32:48

Mike Gruen: Right, exactly.

700

: 00:32:48

Right.

701

: 00:32:48

It took a lot of time to build that

trust and get them to really open up and

702

: 00:32:52

realize that we really were there to help.

703

: 00:32:54

We didn't have some agenda.

704

: 00:32:55

It wasn't just us trying to grab 2 million

because it was earmarked by Congress.

705

: 00:33:00

You know, it was like, we really

wanted to help solve problems.

706

: 00:33:03

So, yeah,

707

: 00:33:05

Tim Winkler: I'm curious, just in terms

of like for defense, uh, customers and

708

: 00:33:09

specifically specifically, I guess, um,

like Palantir is trailblazers in this

709

: 00:33:13

in terms of, you know, actually getting

out there and, um, sitting within users

710

: 00:33:20

when they're being deployed, uh, what,

how do you all get, how do you all get

711

: 00:33:25

into, uh, how do you gain access to those

folks that maybe, you know, might be more

712

: 00:33:30

difficult to, you know, to tap into if

there's, if you feel like there's these

713

: 00:33:34

layers that you have to cut through.

714

: 00:33:36

Um, is it something that you

can do off of a discovery call?

715

: 00:33:41

Does it take a little bit of time?

716

: 00:33:42

Like, what are some of the hacks or

strategies like when you're trying

717

: 00:33:44

to, to build, to, to get into that

mindset of those, of those end users?

718

: 00:33:51

Rob Murtha: I could, I could take

this one, Ken, and I'll pass it over.

719

: 00:33:54

Um, I think there's a variety of

things, you know, it's, I think it's,

720

: 00:33:57

it's, it's, you know, I think we both

have cheat codes cause we've kind of

721

: 00:34:00

been in the industry a little bit.

722

: 00:34:01

Um, and I, and it's, you know, I

constantly have to like remind myself how

723

: 00:34:05

kind of intimidating it might be sometimes

for people just because how everything's

724

: 00:34:08

like, it's everything's so theatrical,

you know, like all these like positions

725

: 00:34:12

and like, you know, for someone who

hasn't, you know, you know, been in the

726

: 00:34:15

military or, or kind of supported these.

727

: 00:34:17

Program offices, you, you hear these

ranks and these people and you, you

728

: 00:34:20

start, you know, it, it becomes just,

it's foreign to a lot of people.

729

: 00:34:23

So, you know, my advice, um, what, you

know, a, let me go back to Palantir

730

: 00:34:27

where I think they did really well.

731

: 00:34:29

Um, because you know, I was a user, I'm

actually a big fan of like the company.

732

: 00:34:32

I think they're very practical, um,

and, and they've, They've provided a

733

: 00:34:35

lot of value for a lot of people and

a lot of national security capability.

734

: 00:34:38

Just being like honest.

735

: 00:34:39

I know they have like a wild reputation.

736

: 00:34:41

Um, but

737

: 00:34:42

Tim Winkler: they have a role called

like forward deployed engineer,

738

: 00:34:45

like forward deployed engineer.

739

: 00:34:47

So it's totally around the user.

740

: 00:34:51

Rob Murtha: Yeah.

741

: 00:34:51

And outside of that, like startup,

um, That the startup space, right.

742

: 00:34:54

That's commonplace for a

lot of these companies.

743

: 00:34:56

You look at Sierra Nevada corporation

or any, you know, Magiera space for some

744

: 00:34:59

of the companies I worked for early on.

745

: 00:35:01

They have a bunch of forward, like,

uh, field service engineers that are

746

: 00:35:04

embedded into like more it ops type

stuff, but still it's like just,

747

: 00:35:08

it's, it's, it's kind of a part of,

part of the last, you know, 20 years

748

: 00:35:11

counterinsurgency and Centcom is just

like something you had to do because

749

: 00:35:14

there's a bunch of kind of ragtag, you

know, tactical operations center set up

750

: 00:35:18

all over the place, but I think what.

751

: 00:35:20

What Palantir did well was like solve,

like solve problems and create value.

752

: 00:35:23

Like, you know, people, people

cite, like, you know, the, the, the

753

: 00:35:27

ownership of data and like the price

point and all these different things.

754

: 00:35:29

It's like, they just like produce value.

755

: 00:35:31

Like, I can't think of many

mission systems that people can

756

: 00:35:34

like turn on and solve a national

security problem with like.

757

: 00:35:37

10 years later, you know, I

don't care what anyone says.

758

: 00:35:39

Like there's just very few companies

that can actually provide that level

759

: 00:35:43

of support and capability to people.

760

: 00:35:45

Ken's company is one of them,

like Omni, Omni federal actually

761

: 00:35:48

build software that people use.

762

: 00:35:49

They have user accounts.

763

: 00:35:50

You ask them like how many

people are using digital

764

: 00:35:52

university to think of things.

765

: 00:35:53

They can cite a user account.

766

: 00:35:54

That's very impressive.

767

: 00:35:55

Very interesting.

768

: 00:35:56

Um, there's, you know, there's a handful

of companies out there that can do that.

769

: 00:35:59

And that's starting to form.

770

: 00:36:00

Force the community to create

more capabilities that are

771

: 00:36:03

usable, tangible, can cite success

metrics, those types of things.

772

: 00:36:06

Palantir falls into that category

in their level, like a million.

773

: 00:36:09

Um, they've done really well.

774

: 00:36:10

Uh, and then to, to go back to the go

to market question, I actually, um, kind

775

: 00:36:15

of made a post about this on LinkedIn

recently, but it's like, just kind

776

: 00:36:17

of, you know, spread around like your

capability a little bit, like, like

777

: 00:36:21

government acquisitions is so chaotic.

778

: 00:36:23

Um, and any one.

779

: 00:36:24

Um, acquisition stakeholder, I kind of

break like the different POCs or kind

780

: 00:36:29

of stakeholders into three categories.

781

: 00:36:31

There's like acquisition POCs, operational

POCs, um, and, and technical POCs.

782

: 00:36:37

And so like any one of those kind

of archetypes or personas are so

783

: 00:36:40

interesting, but like you need to not

just focus on one program office and it,

784

: 00:36:45

and it, as, as humans, it feels like.

785

: 00:36:46

It feels good from a dopamine

perspective when someone's like,

786

: 00:36:49

Oh, I really like what you have.

787

: 00:36:50

I love your tech.

788

: 00:36:50

Like funding's coming up.

789

: 00:36:51

It's around the corner.

790

: 00:36:52

We're going to like set

this all up for you.

791

: 00:36:54

And we have this money set aside.

792

: 00:36:55

And people are like,

all right, job's done.

793

: 00:36:57

They did, you know, drop, drop all like

the, uh, the shovels, dig in the trenches,

794

: 00:37:00

fighting, looking for new customers.

795

: 00:37:02

And.

796

: 00:37:02

I, I, we, I think Ken would agree.

797

: 00:37:04

I recommend the opposite, like continue

to share your capabilities, continue

798

: 00:37:07

to network with people just in case,

because even if you perfectly align and

799

: 00:37:12

logic says like, you will be selling

to this stakeholder because they

800

: 00:37:14

have this burning problem, you know,

acquisition issues can side, like.

801

: 00:37:18

You know, totally broke her volunteer

plans, other stakeholders that are

802

: 00:37:21

kind of like vying for influence and,

and kind of can, can wrestle that away

803

: 00:37:25

from the stakeholder, the funding.

804

: 00:37:27

I mean, there's so many

crazy things that can happen.

805

: 00:37:28

It's like spread your investment

from like a relationship and

806

: 00:37:32

social currency perspective, go

out and meet a ton of people.

807

: 00:37:35

Yeah.

808

: 00:37:35

Understand other customers

that may have similar problems.

809

: 00:37:38

If you stumbled upon like a really

interesting market research signal about

810

: 00:37:41

your capability, doing something really

well for a public sector customer.

811

: 00:37:44

Um, and then I'd say like, and

then the, the, I guess the second

812

: 00:37:48

or third one is like, um, just.

813

: 00:37:51

Be authentic and be yourself.

814

: 00:37:52

Like, you know, the community

needs to change if they want to

815

: 00:37:55

have like more legitimate success.

816

: 00:37:57

It can't be this whole like hollow,

um, like let's, let's put on a show and

817

: 00:38:02

pretend we're progressing in it from a

modernization perspective, or, you know,

818

: 00:38:06

let's put on a show, use the right words

and then never build anything like.

819

: 00:38:09

Everyone's evolving.

820

: 00:38:10

And I think that's one of

the areas we're evolving in.

821

: 00:38:12

Um, like extremely well now for,

it took years for us to get there.

822

: 00:38:16

And so they're, they want to be authentic.

823

: 00:38:18

They don't want to have BS conversations.

824

: 00:38:20

They don't, they don't want to

talk about nonsense anymore.

825

: 00:38:22

So they're expecting people to come

to the table and just be like, Hey, I

826

: 00:38:24

have no idea about the U S military.

827

: 00:38:26

I love national security.

828

: 00:38:27

I love everything.

829

: 00:38:28

Like y'all have done for me.

830

: 00:38:29

I'm super grateful.

831

: 00:38:30

Let's build together.

832

: 00:38:30

Let's make something amazing.

833

: 00:38:31

I have this cool tech.

834

: 00:38:32

Will it work for your mission?

835

: 00:38:34

Too easy.

836

: 00:38:36

Ken Kato: So.

837

: 00:38:36

One of the things that I do is to

explicitly put into the contract

838

: 00:38:41

that I put the sponsor on the hook

to organize users I can speak to.

839

: 00:38:46

So when I go to do user discovery,

user interviews, it's their job to

840

: 00:38:50

get me the users I can speak to.

841

: 00:38:52

So versus trying to hunt and peck

for the right people and trying to

842

: 00:38:55

find the answers and all that stuff.

843

: 00:38:57

Now the sponsor has to participate.

844

: 00:38:59

And it's two fold, right?

845

: 00:39:01

So one thing is that they're

there to go on the same ride.

846

: 00:39:05

They're there to learn how

we do things, all that stuff.

847

: 00:39:07

Also, they also get to see first

hand from their own end users that

848

: 00:39:12

they might not regularly speak to.

849

: 00:39:14

And they actually hear first hand

account like, Oh, this doesn't

850

: 00:39:17

work the way you think it does.

851

: 00:39:19

Like we saw a lot of that in KR days

and so the product in Omni Federal

852

: 00:39:24

Digital University is a great product

and I'm not saying it because I'm

853

: 00:39:27

in Omni Federal, generally speaking,

the sentiment from every user I spoke

854

: 00:39:31

to was like, I love this product.

855

: 00:39:33

I wish I could use this instead

of the current like, you know,

856

: 00:39:36

scripted Air Force training.

857

: 00:39:38

So DU, as we call it, this university,

has been like the go to learning

858

: 00:39:42

platform for any digital stuff.

859

: 00:39:45

So coding, all the stuff,

we cover all the stuff.

860

: 00:39:47

There's another online platform that the

Air Force uses that no one likes, right?

861

: 00:39:52

There's a lot of users saying, I don't

like this, here are the problems, why?

862

: 00:39:55

Here are the problems that DU solves.

863

: 00:39:57

So, you know, we have a lot of

personal accounts, but let's

864

: 00:39:59

say we do a new project, like

AI stuff, it's all greenfield.

865

: 00:40:03

So, I don't have any use to speak

to, even speak to the CDAO's office,

866

: 00:40:07

there's a lot of questions around

what it is, like, I'm in a tech field

867

: 00:40:12

right now with basically no use cases.

868

: 00:40:14

We have novel technology that's

been democratized, but what's next?

869

: 00:40:19

So, I'm now trying to answer questions

about what's next, and the only

870

: 00:40:23

way I can do that sanely is just

talk to people and go, hey, what

871

: 00:40:26

do you expect to get out of this?

872

: 00:40:29

If I build you a private, you know,

instance for a language model, what

873

: 00:40:33

do you think you're going to do?

874

: 00:40:35

And then start to discuss the, you

know, the actual use cases of AI.

875

: 00:40:39

And this is no different than doing

DevOps, like, um, I would try my best

876

: 00:40:42

not to grow my eyes when I say this,

but it got pretty gross when people

877

: 00:40:47

said, I want to buy acquired DevOps.

878

: 00:40:49

I'm like, it's not something you buy.

879

: 00:40:51

The really gross part is the.

880

: 00:40:54

You know, the defense services

industry saying, yeah, we're

881

: 00:40:56

going to sell you a DevOps.

882

: 00:40:57

I'm like, Oh, that's just super fast.

883

: 00:40:59

So that's the kind of

stuff I'm not into doing.

884

: 00:41:02

I'm not into this whole bullshit

marketing just to be able to

885

: 00:41:05

meet a demand from an app shop.

886

: 00:41:07

And what often happens is that you have

acquisition professional in the government

887

: 00:41:12

making tech decisions, not because

they want to, but because they have to.

888

: 00:41:16

And it's also.

889

: 00:41:18

Their job to write out this

contracts get everything in place

890

: 00:41:21

and they get the feedback from

their own internal source, right?

891

: 00:41:24

So they get their text folks,

but they're not available.

892

: 00:41:27

If they're not there to

answer these questions, they

893

: 00:41:30

have to go on the internet.

894

: 00:41:32

So you now seen these pretty wide array

of contract languages, especially around

895

: 00:41:36

like AI and any virtual technology

where without defined use cases.

896

: 00:41:42

So the danger now becomes, no matter

how authentic I want to be and how I

897

: 00:41:46

want to help people, the true help I

can actually lend to the government is

898

: 00:41:50

to tell them, hey, Take a step back.

899

: 00:41:52

Don't rush into this.

900

: 00:41:53

You don't have to just because you

feel like you have to compete on the

901

: 00:41:56

global stage and I understand that

902

: 00:41:59

Mike Gruen: that's exactly everybody

903

: 00:42:00

Ken Kato: else is feeling the same thing.

904

: 00:42:01

So let's, you know, let's take a

much more concerted step together.

905

: 00:42:07

Rob Murtha: Dude, I totally

have a thought in there.

906

: 00:42:08

I just want to, I want to jump in and

just say like, absolutely can like that.

907

: 00:42:11

That I think is one of the most.

908

: 00:42:13

Um, like forward leaning things,

um, that, that the government

909

: 00:42:18

and these program offices can do.

910

: 00:42:19

And it's really hard to do because

it's tough to admit like, Oh, I don't

911

: 00:42:21

understand something or whatever.

912

: 00:42:23

But we saw it a lot through

like the DevSecOps era.

913

: 00:42:25

Like we talk about like

it being commoditized now.

914

: 00:42:27

It's something adopted.

915

: 00:42:28

It's something we're like using day

to day kind of, a lot of organizations

916

: 00:42:31

are still implementing it because it

is challenging with all the policy

917

: 00:42:34

barriers they have and whatnot.

918

: 00:42:35

It's like a new way of doing things.

919

: 00:42:37

But you're starting to see the same stuff

with artificial intelligence where it's

920

: 00:42:39

like, you know, Cringe Fest 9000, where

it's like, everything's generative AI.

921

: 00:42:44

There's no nuance.

922

: 00:42:45

There's no understanding.

923

: 00:42:46

There's no difference between generative

AI and, you know, predictive AI.

924

: 00:42:49

And, you know, what's a regression like

model training and like, what's, you

925

: 00:42:53

know, all these, like, uh, like how is a

dirty algorithm relate to an artificial

926

: 00:42:57

intelligence and automation strategy?

927

: 00:42:59

There's like so much value and

details everywhere where people can

928

: 00:43:02

use artificial intelligence to solve.

929

: 00:43:04

real problems.

930

: 00:43:05

Um, I call it like practical AI,

where it doesn't have to be this

931

: 00:43:08

like strange kind of like, you

know, commercial interpretation

932

: 00:43:12

of this white paper or something.

933

: 00:43:13

It's like, no, you can start small.

934

: 00:43:15

Like you did with DevOps, you know,

like KR, like, you know, start

935

: 00:43:17

deploying what, like essentially

like really like Gucci web forms, you

936

: 00:43:20

know, to in a production environment.

937

: 00:43:22

And that's a definite, that's a, a

first test case, um, of, of success.

938

: 00:43:26

We could do the same thing with

artificial intelligence, like.

939

: 00:43:28

They it's, there's actually approaches

called like lean AI and stuff where

940

: 00:43:32

you leverage the same, like lean

methodologies to approach experimentation.

941

: 00:43:36

And it's what we need to do if

we, if we want to realize it fast.

942

: 00:43:42

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

943

: 00:43:42

One of the things that you kind of

hit on too, Ken, I think is just

944

: 00:43:44

like, sadly, there's a lot of.

945

: 00:43:48

Bad players out there that are

just selling snake oil, right.

946

: 00:43:51

Because there's money in it.

947

: 00:43:52

And it's like, Oh, well, you know, if we

can just get it through this one program

948

: 00:43:56

office, whatever, like, yeah, well, they

see, they see, uh, you know, they see, uh,

949

: 00:44:02

the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow,

but they don't see the value and they

950

: 00:44:05

don't really care to like, make sure that

it's being implemented or roll it out.

951

: 00:44:08

So we see a lot of, I've

seen a lot of companies just.

952

: 00:44:12

It's almost like a facade, like, well,

I'm really sure what the hell you're

953

: 00:44:14

doing, but you have this relationship

with this, you know, this one agency and

954

: 00:44:18

it's, it's, you know, it comes back to the

root of like, what we were first started

955

: 00:44:22

talking about is like, you know, making

sure that that value is there and that

956

: 00:44:25

you're, you're, you know, that's what

you're delivering at the end of the day.

957

: 00:44:28

Um, I think Rob might, might've had

to sign off, but at the, at the end

958

: 00:44:33

of it, um, you know, I think can, it

sounds like what you guys are doing at

959

: 00:44:37

OmniFederal is, uh, you know, On a very

different scale than what a lot of these

960

: 00:44:43

other maybe, you know, consultancies

might be, might be rolling out.

961

: 00:44:47

Um, one of the things that I think

comes to mind for me, uh, when I

962

: 00:44:52

think about, you know, Some of these

preconceived notions of government

963

: 00:44:58

is, you know, we've got meetings

upon meetings upon meetings, right?

964

: 00:45:02

So it's like, how do you overcome

these, these older habits, like during

965

: 00:45:07

an engagement with, with some of the,

you know, some of the partnerships that

966

: 00:45:11

you've had, or some of these engagements

that you've had, what is it that.

967

: 00:45:14

You know, from a cadence perspective,

I'm just generally curious on like,

968

: 00:45:17

how often are you and checking in?

969

: 00:45:19

Like what's the level of engagement

that you all take when you're, when

970

: 00:45:23

you're trying to implement something?

971

: 00:45:26

Ken Kato: Great question.

972

: 00:45:27

Uh, so when I built Black Pearl for

the Department of Navy, you know,

973

: 00:45:31

it was, it wasn't like it went from

zero to build day one, I got there.

974

: 00:45:36

And so when I got there, it

was part, it was detailed.

975

: 00:45:42

There is a white house fellow

and the expectation is that we'll

976

: 00:45:45

be doing by husband, the way

things live with that might be.

977

: 00:45:49

I also came with having

just left Casa rock.

978

: 00:45:52

So having had, you know, had the hand and

building out the infrastructure there,

979

: 00:45:56

there's a lot of natural questions.

980

: 00:45:58

And the literal question that was

asked to me was, can we do a Casa run?

981

: 00:46:02

Like everybody.

982

: 00:46:04

And I have to tell Secretary of

the Navy, CNO, DCNO, CIO, CTO,

983

: 00:46:12

all the same thing, I don't know.

984

: 00:46:14

Like, what do you mean you don't know?

985

: 00:46:15

I'm like, well, without knowing what

the Navy is doing, I'm not going to

986

: 00:46:19

come in and make an assumption that

you're not doing it, or that you are

987

: 00:46:22

doing it, it's amazing, I don't know.

988

: 00:46:24

So I'm telling you that I don't

know that I need to go to Discovery.

989

: 00:46:27

And I wound up finding this

O5, my friend Jason Thurst, who

990

: 00:46:32

helped me, my friend Devin Brand.

991

: 00:46:33

Devin was the pimp who was

also in the Navy with me.

992

: 00:46:36

Travel across the Navy and just go dig in.

993

: 00:46:39

Find out what people are doing.

994

: 00:46:41

So when you look at Super

Hornet, right, how is software

995

: 00:46:44

being developed on Super Hornet?

996

: 00:46:45

Well, the answer lies in China Lake.

997

: 00:46:47

It's a very long, awful

trip to go to China Lake.

998

: 00:46:49

If we're talking sub development,

well, there's the Virginia class and

999

: 00:46:52

the Columbia class is near my neck

that was in the East Coast, so we

: 1000

00:46:55,494 --> 00:47:00,470

went to talk to those folks, like, bit

by bit by bit to get that knowledge.

: 1001

00:47:00,490 --> 00:47:03,390

And then after that, I was

finally able to check back in

: 1002

00:47:03,420 --> 00:47:04,870

to the original stakeholders.

: 1003

00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:07,600

CIO.

: 1004

00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,040

I'm ready, and I think here's

where I can, I think I can help.

: 1005

00:47:11,390 --> 00:47:14,110

I think I want to build a paper

concept platform so that you can

: 1006

00:47:14,110 --> 00:47:18,730

just go on it, do development, do

communication, practice doing actual

: 1007

00:47:18,730 --> 00:47:20,860

stuff, and bring that back with you.

: 1008

00:47:20,980 --> 00:47:23,750

Like, I want to build everything

open source and just give it to

: 1009

00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,390

you, but there's no money involved.

: 1010

00:47:27,355 --> 00:47:29,935

But even that, there is

still money involved, right?

: 1011

00:47:30,165 --> 00:47:33,375

The hard truth is that government

employees make money and they still,

: 1012

00:47:33,735 --> 00:47:35,835

their money has to come from somewhere.

: 1013

00:47:36,235 --> 00:47:40,725

So I wound up having to, you know,

identify new stakeholders and champions.

: 1014

00:47:40,785 --> 00:47:45,445

And the person I found, he had me

start looking into contract renewals,

: 1015

00:47:45,465 --> 00:47:48,840

because I was waiting after, you

know, the Point to be able to

: 1016

00:47:48,970 --> 00:47:50,380

say, Hey, Congress, give me money.

: 1017

00:47:50,410 --> 00:47:53,460

So I had to go look on the

couch missions, but where I

: 1018

00:47:53,460 --> 00:47:54,780

found it was licensed renewals.

: 1019

00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,870

It's a licensed renewals is that weird

murky war in it, where a lot of people

: 1020

00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:01,680

overplay the numbers to make sure they

can buy all the things we need to do.

: 1021

00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:05,340

And if that's true in private

industry, that's also got to

: 1022

00:48:05,340 --> 00:48:06,520

be true in government, right?

: 1023

00:48:06,540 --> 00:48:07,900

And that's exactly where I found this.

: 1024

00:48:07,900 --> 00:48:10,000

So I found a couch

question for that money.

: 1025

00:48:10,230 --> 00:48:15,740

And I actually, Was able to build,

deploy, and run BlackQuery, year

: 1026

00:48:15,740 --> 00:48:19,130

one, for, I tell you what, you guys

have been in this business, no one

: 1027

00:48:19,130 --> 00:48:21,850

else, if I had to build a DevSecOps

program, how much do you think I spent,

: 1028

00:48:24,850 --> 00:48:25,620

whole program?

: 1029

00:48:25,970 --> 00:48:27,110

Mike Gruen: Mike, you

would, you gotta guess?

: 1030

00:48:27,210 --> 00:48:32,660

I mean, I, whatever, I guess it's gonna

be so off, I have no, I mean, for, for

: 1031

00:48:32,660 --> 00:48:34,880

that size, I don't know, I have, it's,

: 1032

00:48:39,865 --> 00:48:40,435

Um,

: 1033

00:48:43,785 --> 00:48:45,485

uh, yeah, I wouldn't even

be able to hazard a guess,

: 1034

00:48:45,485 --> 00:48:47,995

honestly, just, uh, you'd call it

: 1035

00:48:49,505 --> 00:48:50,715

Ken Kato: millions, tens of millions,

: 1036

00:48:51,655 --> 00:48:55,064

Mike Gruen: probably tens of

millions, like somewhere, and

: 1037

00:48:55,445 --> 00:48:57,775

Ken Kato: that's another thing I

wanted to change your mind on and

: 1038

00:48:57,775 --> 00:49:01,375

the government, it doesn't have to be

that expensive, but it is 400, 000.

: 1039

00:49:03,735 --> 00:49:05,454

Mike Gruen: Impressive

: 1040

00:49:05,455 --> 00:49:06,015

Ken Kato: operation.

: 1041

00:49:06,015 --> 00:49:06,285

Thank you.

: 1042

00:49:06,285 --> 00:49:09,165

But that's also like me and a couple

of people have been put hands on

: 1043

00:49:09,165 --> 00:49:11,025

keyboard, build out everything.

: 1044

00:49:11,305 --> 00:49:12,495

No licensing involved.

: 1045

00:49:12,755 --> 00:49:15,905

And for the license stuff

is calling in favors, right?

: 1046

00:49:16,525 --> 00:49:17,475

Version of the Red Hat.

: 1047

00:49:17,485 --> 00:49:20,195

So I called in favors

to friends over Red Hat.

: 1048

00:49:20,205 --> 00:49:21,845

Like, Hey, how do I get a dev license?

: 1049

00:49:22,315 --> 00:49:22,855

Like, Oh, here's

: 1050

00:49:22,855 --> 00:49:23,994

Mike Gruen: that.

: 1051

00:49:24,275 --> 00:49:26,455

Ken Kato: So just being creative

about that kind of stuff.

: 1052

00:49:26,775 --> 00:49:30,500

And then that's You know, that

was the initial part of like,

: 1053

00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:31,560

how do you launch a new product?

: 1054

00:49:31,610 --> 00:49:34,290

And so the answer to your question

about how often you check in

: 1055

00:49:34,290 --> 00:49:38,250

thereafter, all the time, because

once you build a program like that,

: 1056

00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:40,720

I have to go down and pony it, right?

: 1057

00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,070

Now it's going back to the same

tool registered to discover

: 1058

00:49:44,070 --> 00:49:45,700

who's doing DevOps in the Navy.

: 1059

00:49:45,930 --> 00:49:49,260

Now let's go back through this

same group of people and go, here's

: 1060

00:49:49,260 --> 00:49:50,550

the thing, does this help you?

: 1061

00:49:50,570 --> 00:49:52,870

Yes, no, if it doesn't,

tell me how it does help.

: 1062

00:49:53,180 --> 00:49:53,420

Tim Winkler: Right.

: 1063

00:49:54,890 --> 00:49:57,860

Yeah, you bring up a good point, Ken,

because it's like, uh, I was talking

: 1064

00:49:57,860 --> 00:50:01,930

to somebody the other day that's pretty

deep into, into defense tech space.

: 1065

00:50:01,930 --> 00:50:06,320

And One of the biggest things that

he was an advocate for was finding

: 1066

00:50:06,340 --> 00:50:09,330

agencies that don't have colors of money.

: 1067

00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:12,830

So it's like, you know, everything in

the government's got to have, you know,

: 1068

00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:20,180

this been tied to this thing, which

makes it really hard to innovate if they

: 1069

00:50:20,180 --> 00:50:23,450

can't find that correlation of like, Oh,

well, I don't know what, what was this?

: 1070

00:50:23,770 --> 00:50:25,200

Was this really R and D or?

: 1071

00:50:25,515 --> 00:50:28,215

Or, you know, was this

operation and maintenance?

: 1072

00:50:28,215 --> 00:50:30,115

I don't know what,

what's my line item here.

: 1073

00:50:30,455 --> 00:50:35,815

So there's, there are, there are

few, uh, agencies in defense that are

: 1074

00:50:35,845 --> 00:50:41,125

kind of like this, uh, almost like a,

uh, sandbox for innovation, defense

: 1075

00:50:41,125 --> 00:50:42,785

innovation unit is one of them, DIU.

: 1076

00:50:43,695 --> 00:50:45,925

Uh, where they have colorless money.

: 1077

00:50:46,095 --> 00:50:49,795

So they do a lot of work with

commercial startups in terms of,

: 1078

00:50:50,105 --> 00:50:53,085

you know, experimenting with this

technology here, or like, Hey, let me

: 1079

00:50:53,085 --> 00:50:56,795

see what I can see, how I can maybe

prototype with this technology from

: 1080

00:50:56,795 --> 00:51:00,875

this one company here versus having

to find a line item to connect it to

: 1081

00:51:00,875 --> 00:51:03,935

and make sure that it's, yeah, but

you know, it's, is it in the budget?

: 1082

00:51:04,405 --> 00:51:06,225

Um, so it is really tough.

: 1083

00:51:06,255 --> 00:51:08,995

And I think that's one thing that a lot of

folks don't really understand or maybe not

: 1084

00:51:08,995 --> 00:51:12,535

realize when they come from a commercial

setting into a government setting is that.

: 1085

00:51:12,985 --> 00:51:14,475

There are these colors of money.

: 1086

00:51:14,475 --> 00:51:15,685

You can look it up.

: 1087

00:51:15,685 --> 00:51:17,675

What does it, what does

government color of money mean?

: 1088

00:51:17,675 --> 00:51:20,895

And it's got to be tied to,

you know, one of these buckets.

: 1089

00:51:21,295 --> 00:51:26,295

Um, so when you kind of, you know,

describe like how to get something

: 1090

00:51:26,295 --> 00:51:31,045

across, you know, uh, across the

finish line, that just, You know,

: 1091

00:51:31,045 --> 00:51:33,915

it's not, it's not a matter of spam,

but just like, just once you get a

: 1092

00:51:33,915 --> 00:51:37,525

taste of the value, I think that's,

it's a really interesting perspective.

: 1093

00:51:37,525 --> 00:51:40,605

When I, when I'm coming from like a world

of like a lot of commercial startup and

: 1094

00:51:40,605 --> 00:51:42,465

innovation, that's moving very quickly.

: 1095

00:51:42,465 --> 00:51:44,105

And let me just give you a taste of it.

: 1096

00:51:44,105 --> 00:51:45,935

You can try it and then we can scale it.

: 1097

00:51:45,945 --> 00:51:49,815

So not how it works traditionally,

uh, when we're talking about, you

: 1098

00:51:49,815 --> 00:51:51,810

know, big Big implementations here.

: 1099

00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,810

Ken Kato: Now, to your point about

speed, like a little funny, you know,

: 1100

00:51:54,820 --> 00:51:58,080

adding to it about building out Black

Pearl, like, the story officially in

: 1101

00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,785

the Department of Navy is it took,

I want to say, 45 days to launch it.

: 1102

00:52:03,005 --> 00:52:03,335

Tim Winkler: Wow.

: 1103

00:52:03,345 --> 00:52:04,735

Ken Kato: And to build

all that stuff, right.

: 1104

00:52:04,795 --> 00:52:05,775

Which is still fast.

: 1105

00:52:05,835 --> 00:52:06,905

But here's the actual truth.

: 1106

00:52:06,925 --> 00:52:12,925

That's me and my friends took a long

weekend to actually write and AWS.

: 1107

00:52:13,575 --> 00:52:15,425

So, you know, that's four days.

: 1108

00:52:15,685 --> 00:52:19,015

So I spent the other 41 days

getting back on the CNO's calendar

: 1109

00:52:19,015 --> 00:52:20,015

to tell the guy I was done.

: 1110

00:52:23,045 --> 00:52:23,555

Tim Winkler: That's funny.

: 1111

00:52:25,565 --> 00:52:30,005

Um, yeah, that's, that's a pretty, uh,

that definitely puts perspective in terms

: 1112

00:52:30,005 --> 00:52:32,045

of like the amount of time to value.

: 1113

00:52:32,700 --> 00:52:34,950

Ken Kato: Now, on the Congress

money parcel, when you're talking

: 1114

00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,800

DIU, and I remember them from the

days where they had the X and it

: 1115

00:52:37,810 --> 00:52:39,150

was still experimental, right?

: 1116

00:52:39,150 --> 00:52:41,550

So KR came out of the IUX model back then.

: 1117

00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:45,840

So, you're talking OTA, other

transcriptional authority, and

: 1118

00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,740

that's another, like, really

hairy topic in government.

: 1119

00:52:49,100 --> 00:52:52,990

So, Or I'm not sure how familiar

your listeners are to OTAs

: 1120

00:52:52,990 --> 00:52:54,140

and different mechanisms.

: 1121

00:52:54,290 --> 00:52:54,680

Maybe just

: 1122

00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,970

Tim Winkler: quickly spell it out

because it is an area that I think

: 1123

00:52:56,970 --> 00:53:01,410

is, um, comes up a couple of times

through the Castle Run former episodes.

: 1124

00:53:01,490 --> 00:53:01,750

Okay.

: 1125

00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,580

Ken Kato: So let's touch the high level

OTA, other transactional authority.

: 1126

00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,310

It is a perfectly legal way for

the government to buy something.

: 1127

00:53:09,540 --> 00:53:10,720

Usually it's technology.

: 1128

00:53:11,170 --> 00:53:14,540

It's called other transactional

authority because it is a fully

: 1129

00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:15,920

legal authority to buy stuff.

: 1130

00:53:16,750 --> 00:53:19,480

It's other transactional also

because it's not traditional.

: 1131

00:53:20,155 --> 00:53:20,705

Acquisition.

: 1132

00:53:20,745 --> 00:53:25,325

So FAR, Federal Acquisition Regulation,

and DFAR is a defense supplement.

: 1133

00:53:25,735 --> 00:53:29,405

It's a very scripted,

structured way to buy something.

: 1134

00:53:29,475 --> 00:53:30,805

It's pretty gnarly to get through.

: 1135

00:53:31,185 --> 00:53:32,565

OTAs, you don't have to.

: 1136

00:53:32,585 --> 00:53:37,145

So you are now legally not obligated to

have to do all the DFARs and FAR stuff.

: 1137

00:53:37,445 --> 00:53:38,855

That's what's sexy about OTAs.

: 1138

00:53:38,895 --> 00:53:39,935

But here's the problem.

: 1139

00:53:40,235 --> 00:53:42,895

Most ag shops have no idea how OTAs work.

: 1140

00:53:43,115 --> 00:53:46,425

So even if you find an ag shop going

to do an OTA, they make you jump to

: 1141

00:53:46,425 --> 00:53:49,515

the hook like FAR and DFARs because

they don't know the difference.

: 1142

00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:54,350

So even though you can find

colorless money like an OTA funds,

: 1143

00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,970

you still up against people who

still manage money the same way.

: 1144

00:53:58,040 --> 00:53:58,420

Uh,

: 1145

00:53:58,500 --> 00:53:58,890

Mike Gruen: gotcha.

: 1146

00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:00,550

Ken Kato: It still comes

down to the application of

: 1147

00:54:00,610 --> 00:54:01,830

professional knowledge about it.

: 1148

00:54:01,830 --> 00:54:03,750

And OTAs are pretty out there.

: 1149

00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:05,780

There's a lot of people

who really don't like them.

: 1150

00:54:05,830 --> 00:54:08,130

And we're talking even

congressional representatives

: 1151

00:54:08,130 --> 00:54:09,500

who really don't like the idea.

: 1152

00:54:10,030 --> 00:54:12,930

It's not for lack of

transparency and any above.

: 1153

00:54:12,970 --> 00:54:15,445

It's just the, Lack of

commitment and money.

: 1154

00:54:15,475 --> 00:54:19,295

Because OTAs are so flexible, people

hasn't been handing them out regularly.

: 1155

00:54:19,765 --> 00:54:21,575

So there's, because there's

no legal enforcement.

: 1156

00:54:21,585 --> 00:54:22,545

There is, but there isn't.

: 1157

00:54:22,595 --> 00:54:24,195

So that's OTAs in a nutshell.

: 1158

00:54:24,895 --> 00:54:28,865

Castle Run, but there is a way to use,

you know, Colorado money in a smart way.

: 1159

00:54:28,905 --> 00:54:31,015

So Castle Run, we have 3, 600 money.

: 1160

00:54:31,225 --> 00:54:33,755

So 3, 600 is just, you know, R& D.

: 1161

00:54:34,210 --> 00:54:37,450

So as long as we could fit into

the software R& D, that's just

: 1162

00:54:37,450 --> 00:54:40,330

that pot of money, it's really

flexible to be able to move around.

: 1163

00:54:40,620 --> 00:54:45,480

So there is a way to do it, but it also

means getting an application professional

: 1164

00:54:45,620 --> 00:54:47,440

who understands this field well.

: 1165

00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:51,410

Like it's the same difference as

hiring a really well seasoned CFO,

: 1166

00:54:52,010 --> 00:54:56,220

especially a CFO who understands

international trade laws and taxes.

: 1167

00:54:56,730 --> 00:55:00,340

Because when you run a business,

it's not the, it's frankly not the

: 1168

00:55:00,350 --> 00:55:01,480

business itself that will kill you.

: 1169

00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:02,250

It's the taxes.

: 1170

00:55:02,775 --> 00:55:04,975

Especially when we start

making international money.

: 1171

00:55:05,015 --> 00:55:08,635

So how do you reconcile international

income into the United States?

: 1172

00:55:08,955 --> 00:55:11,055

Having a seasoned CFO

to answer that is great.

: 1173

00:55:11,225 --> 00:55:13,395

Same difference in the government

having a seasoned acquisition

: 1174

00:55:13,405 --> 00:55:16,535

professionals who actually

understand OTAs is super critical.

: 1175

00:55:18,145 --> 00:55:19,295

Tim Winkler: Yeah, that's good intel man.

: 1176

00:55:19,335 --> 00:55:23,885

And I think that's probably an area

we could really dive deeper into

: 1177

00:55:23,895 --> 00:55:27,365

on an entire episode, just because,

you know, I think there's a lot

: 1178

00:55:27,365 --> 00:55:29,445

of folks that have figured it out.

: 1179

00:55:29,485 --> 00:55:32,375

Some that are still trying to figure

it out, but I think there is a

: 1180

00:55:32,375 --> 00:55:36,465

lot that can be done in terms of

navigating those waters and, and,

: 1181

00:55:36,465 --> 00:55:38,065

uh, you know, how to innovate by.

: 1182

00:55:38,465 --> 00:55:40,135

Yeah, pulling on the right strings.

: 1183

00:55:42,455 --> 00:55:44,915

Ken Kato: I could think of two people

would be perfect for you to talk to.

: 1184

00:55:45,055 --> 00:55:47,245

My buddy, Russell Long,

he runs Long Capture.

: 1185

00:55:47,385 --> 00:55:50,085

He came out about, he's a

former contract officer.

: 1186

00:55:50,365 --> 00:55:52,574

And my friend, Tori Cush is over at Sage.

: 1187

00:55:52,575 --> 00:55:54,995

Tori was the main, like,

act person for Castle Run.

: 1188

00:55:54,995 --> 00:55:57,875

So, she's the one who

defined Agile Acquisition.

: 1189

00:55:58,165 --> 00:56:01,355

Another person would be Max,

DIU, formerly at Castle Run.

: 1190

00:56:01,695 --> 00:56:03,235

Same thing, right, the Agile Acquisition.

: 1191

00:56:03,245 --> 00:56:04,955

Like, those are the folks who

speak to you about that stuff.

: 1192

00:56:05,340 --> 00:56:07,720

Tim Winkler: I'll have to, that's

what I love about, man, this

: 1193

00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:11,660

is, and that, in my opinion, it

kind of like defines the space.

: 1194

00:56:11,660 --> 00:56:14,940

It's like, everybody's always

willing to like pass forward a name

: 1195

00:56:14,940 --> 00:56:16,920

or two or three of somebody else.

: 1196

00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,140

It's, it's doing something in some area.

: 1197

00:56:19,580 --> 00:56:24,220

I mean, it, it really is a theme of,

of, uh, you know, uh, work, working

: 1198

00:56:24,220 --> 00:56:27,890

in tech and government or defense,

what, what have you, it's truly a

: 1199

00:56:27,890 --> 00:56:30,080

very networking driven space, man.

: 1200

00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:30,359

Yeah.

: 1201

00:56:30,730 --> 00:56:32,220

And, uh, I love that.

: 1202

00:56:32,220 --> 00:56:36,070

I think it's, it's, uh, it's also

shows your passion too, like willing

: 1203

00:56:36,070 --> 00:56:38,040

to like, Hey, like pay it forward.

: 1204

00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,210

Also, like, I want to keep the

conversation going because everybody

: 1205

00:56:41,210 --> 00:56:45,630

seems to be on the same thread that,

you know, we want to help innovate.

: 1206

00:56:45,630 --> 00:56:46,420

We want to do it.

: 1207

00:56:46,430 --> 00:56:49,090

Like, how do we, how do

we build the ecosystem?

: 1208

00:56:49,090 --> 00:56:51,080

Like, here's some people that

you might want to talk to.

: 1209

00:56:51,405 --> 00:56:55,195

Um, so I, I appreciate that and I,

I will, I will take you up on that.

: 1210

00:56:55,195 --> 00:56:57,665

I'll, I'll, I'll, uh, connect

with you offline on it.

: 1211

00:56:58,385 --> 00:56:59,015

Um, all right.

: 1212

00:56:59,015 --> 00:57:03,595

Well, in the essence of, of time, I am

going to just kind of transition us down

: 1213

00:57:03,595 --> 00:57:05,905

to, uh, to our, our final segment here.

: 1214

00:57:06,155 --> 00:57:09,415

I'll, I'll have to tap Rob at a later

date here to get his, uh, five seconds.

: 1215

00:57:09,425 --> 00:57:10,075

Scramble, but.

: 1216

00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,750

Uh, we still have you on,

on the hook here, Ken.

: 1217

00:57:12,750 --> 00:57:16,820

So Mike, uh, go ahead and, uh,

and lead us off with the, with

: 1218

00:57:16,820 --> 00:57:18,000

the five second scramble segment.

: 1219

00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:20,080

Uh, for the new year, a little

: 1220

00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:20,450

Mike Gruen: change.

: 1221

00:57:20,450 --> 00:57:20,810

I get

: 1222

00:57:24,980 --> 00:57:25,164

to actually participate.

: 1223

00:57:25,164 --> 00:57:28,460

So, yeah, so, uh, I'm going to fire

some questions off at you, uh, and

: 1224

00:57:28,470 --> 00:57:29,950

try to answer as quickly as possible.

: 1225

00:57:30,210 --> 00:57:34,190

Uh, it'll be a mix of, um, uh,

company and personal questions.

: 1226

00:57:34,610 --> 00:57:39,395

Um, So, uh, here we go, uh,

explain OmniFederal to me as

: 1227

00:57:39,395 --> 00:57:40,365

if I were a five year old.

: 1228

00:57:41,895 --> 00:57:46,775

Ken Kato: We build tech that

people really, really want to use.

: 1229

00:57:46,925 --> 00:57:49,395

That's really, really

critical to their success.

: 1230

00:57:49,505 --> 00:57:52,835

So we like to go out and find out

what it is that you want to use

: 1231

00:57:52,905 --> 00:57:55,584

and we build it for you because

that's where our passion is.

: 1232

00:57:56,715 --> 00:58:00,565

Mike Gruen: Uh, what type of

technologist thrives at, uh, OmniFederal?

: 1233

00:58:02,825 --> 00:58:03,775

Ken Kato: A wide range.

: 1234

00:58:03,985 --> 00:58:06,935

Uh, what kind of technologists thrive?

: 1235

00:58:07,325 --> 00:58:12,065

Really, people who are willing to just

dive in and really dig into a problem.

: 1236

00:58:12,075 --> 00:58:16,255

Not just a surface, cure a problem, space,

and then I'm going to go make something.

: 1237

00:58:16,485 --> 00:58:20,575

Really, really dig in to really

understand the customer, the end user.

: 1238

00:58:22,450 --> 00:58:24,690

Mike Gruen: Uh, what's the best piece

of advice you've ever been given?

: 1239

00:58:26,410 --> 00:58:28,960

Ken Kato: When I first joined

the fellowship, I was told to,

: 1240

00:58:29,260 --> 00:58:34,300

uh, that every fellowship class

has a crisis and I was prepared.

: 1241

00:58:34,330 --> 00:58:36,180

I was not prepared for a pandemic though.

: 1242

00:58:37,700 --> 00:58:40,470

Mike Gruen: Uh, what's the most important

skill you look for in a new hire?

: 1243

00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,320

Ken Kato: The ability to explain

complicated tech in a really simple way.

: 1244

00:58:46,430 --> 00:58:49,750

Like as if you're going to explain to my

mom or grandma, that's the kind of people

: 1245

00:58:49,750 --> 00:58:53,685

I like to talk to because well, I'm You

don't have to sound smart to be smart.

: 1246

00:58:55,295 --> 00:58:57,385

Mike Gruen: Uh, what do we

have to look forward to, uh,

: 1247

00:58:57,435 --> 00:58:59,095

coming, uh, at OmniFederal?

: 1248

00:59:00,445 --> 00:59:03,595

Ken Kato: We're really excited

to start thinking about how to

: 1249

00:59:03,605 --> 00:59:07,315

get DEU into the hands of other

users and to other missions.

: 1250

00:59:07,565 --> 00:59:12,015

We're super excited to start building

out an internal product launch structure

: 1251

00:59:12,015 --> 00:59:15,965

so that we can start moving towards a

product centric organization as well.

: 1252

00:59:16,025 --> 00:59:19,215

I am personally interested and very

excited about building different

: 1253

00:59:19,215 --> 00:59:20,895

AI and ML related capabilities.

: 1254

00:59:20,895 --> 00:59:21,114

Thanks.

: 1255

00:59:22,375 --> 00:59:23,845

Mike Gruen: What was

your dream job as a kid?

: 1256

00:59:24,835 --> 00:59:26,025

Ken Kato: To be a motorcycle cop.

: 1257

00:59:27,785 --> 00:59:29,165

Mike Gruen: That's a sweet answer.

: 1258

00:59:30,165 --> 00:59:30,665

Love it.

: 1259

00:59:30,665 --> 00:59:31,764

Yeah,

: 1260

00:59:31,765 --> 00:59:32,625

Ken Kato: I knew it, but yeah.

: 1261

00:59:35,105 --> 00:59:37,005

Mike Gruen: What's the largest

land animal you think you

: 1262

00:59:37,005 --> 00:59:38,015

could take in a street fight?

: 1263

00:59:38,805 --> 00:59:42,435

Ken Kato: Ooh, largest land

animal in a street fight, my god.

: 1264

00:59:45,745 --> 00:59:47,045

That's a great question, man.

: 1265

00:59:48,435 --> 00:59:50,545

I think I'm pretty comfortable with a cat.

: 1266

00:59:50,555 --> 00:59:53,485

I think I have a good chance, but

I don't, I love my fur babies.

: 1267

00:59:53,485 --> 00:59:57,315

You know, we have, I would have

to run away because I'm not

: 1268

00:59:57,505 --> 00:59:58,335

going to hurt the fur baby.

: 1269

01:00:03,225 --> 01:00:05,035

Mike Gruen: What was your

favorite cereal as a kid?

: 1270

01:00:06,325 --> 01:00:07,365

Ken Kato: Uh, funny thing.

: 1271

01:00:07,405 --> 01:00:10,985

I didn't really experience Syria until I

moved to the United States when they did

: 1272

01:00:11,135 --> 01:00:12,735

recent peanut butter puffs all the way.

: 1273

01:00:12,905 --> 01:00:13,725

Mike Gruen: Oh, awesome.

: 1274

01:00:13,725 --> 01:00:15,255

That's cool.

: 1275

01:00:15,925 --> 01:00:19,695

Um, what's a charity or corporate

philanthropy that you're a,

: 1276

01:00:19,735 --> 01:00:20,535

that's near and dear to you?

: 1277

01:00:20,965 --> 01:00:21,455

Ken Kato: Oh man.

: 1278

01:00:21,505 --> 01:00:22,635

Uh, donate to Spookstock.

: 1279

01:00:23,315 --> 01:00:25,655

Uh, I have a bunch of friends

who run the organization.

: 1280

01:00:25,745 --> 01:00:28,935

Uh, they give money to phone

Intel officers, totally worth it.

: 1281

01:00:30,315 --> 01:00:32,355

Mike Gruen: Um, and we'll get that

in the show notes, right, Tim?

: 1282

01:00:32,780 --> 01:00:33,120

Yeah.

: 1283

01:00:33,420 --> 01:00:33,660

Cool.

: 1284

01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:33,940

Cool.

: 1285

01:00:34,070 --> 01:00:38,670

Um, and then finally, if you could live

in a fictional world from a book or

: 1286

01:00:38,670 --> 01:00:40,230

movie, which world would you choose?

: 1287

01:00:40,900 --> 01:00:41,360

Ken Kato: Oh man.

: 1288

01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,484

But because we're talking horror early

in the night, that's when my brain's

: 1289

01:00:44,484 --> 01:00:46,080

like, that's not a good space to live in.

: 1290

01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:49,140

That's not a good idea.

: 1291

01:00:49,570 --> 01:00:51,200

Uh, world to live in.

: 1292

01:00:51,410 --> 01:00:52,380

Let's go with my childhood.

: 1293

01:00:52,490 --> 01:00:55,550

I mean, I would love to be able

to have an actual like world where

: 1294

01:00:55,550 --> 01:00:58,160

like the Gundam mechs are available.

: 1295

01:00:58,160 --> 01:00:58,210

Cool.

: 1296

01:00:58,380 --> 01:00:58,730

Right.

: 1297

01:00:59,550 --> 01:01:00,350

Versus a car.

: 1298

01:01:00,410 --> 01:01:00,640

Yeah.

: 1299

01:01:00,740 --> 01:01:01,740

Give me that any day of the week.

: 1300

01:01:03,420 --> 01:01:03,940

Mike Gruen: Awesome.

: 1301

01:01:03,940 --> 01:01:04,780

Well, thanks so much.

: 1302

01:01:05,210 --> 01:01:05,700

Tim Winkler: Good stuff.

: 1303

01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:06,930

Uh, all right.

: 1304

01:01:06,930 --> 01:01:07,700

Well, that's a wrap.

: 1305

01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:09,630

Yeah, we're gonna, we're

gonna close on that note.

: 1306

01:01:09,670 --> 01:01:10,990

Thanks again for joining us.

: 1307

01:01:10,990 --> 01:01:13,190

Ken and Rob, you guys

have been a great guest.

: 1308

01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:18,090

Uh, uh, thanks for keeping, keep

keeping on, on, on moving that needle.

: 1309

01:01:18,090 --> 01:01:20,440

Uh, when it comes to digital

transformation and the public

: 1310

01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,000

sector, uh, it's a long road,

but, uh, you guys are walking it.

: 1311

01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:25,120

So appreciate the work you're doing.

: 1312

01:01:25,860 --> 01:01:26,860

For joining us on the pod.

: 1313

01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:28,230

Ken Kato: Thanks for having me.

: 1314

01:01:28,230 --> 01:01:28,910

This is great.

: 1315

01:01:28,950 --> 01:01:29,600

Thank you again.

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