Episode Summary: Olabanji and Jeremy are joined by Hannah Ritchie, a Data Scientist and the Deputy Editor and Lead Researcher from Our World in Data, a non-profit focused on uncovering facts about the world's most pressing issues.

Hannah is also a TED speaker and a writer.

In this episode, we delve into Hannah’s book, "Not the End of the World - How We Can Be the First Generation to Build a Sustainable Planet", a guide for understanding and addressing global environmental challenges.

Hannah shares how she merges her love for science and writing to explore and explain complex issues through data.

We dive into intriguing topics like the true impact of palm oil, the surprising benefits of electric vehicles in cold climates, and how we can address multiple environmental problems with singular solutions.

Her insights provide a deeper understanding of sustainability, debunking myths, and highlighting the importance of a data-driven approach to environmental issues.

So tune in, as Hannah Ritchie helps us navigate through rumors and facts, bringing clarity to our collective mission for a sustainable future.

https://hannahritchie.com/

https://ourworldindata.org/

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For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

https://thecarbonalmanac.org/

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Olabanji Stephen and Jeremy Côté.

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria. He’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

Jeremy is a scientist, an athlete, a coach, and a writer from Québec, Canada.

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Christina.

2

I'm from Prague.

3

Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

4

Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria.

5

Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris.

6

Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York.

7

Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with

Carbon Conversations for every day, with

8

everyone, from everywhere in the world.

9

In our conversations, we share ideas.

10

perspectives, questions, and things we

can actually do to make a difference.

11

So don't be shy and join our Carbon

Sessions because it's not too late.

12

Hi, I am Ola Bungie.

13

Hey, I'm Jeremy.

14

Hi, I'm Hanna.

15

All right.

16

And this is Carbon Sessions.

17

So here at the Carbon Almanac

Network, one of our key ideas.

18

Both behind the book and the community

is that to really create change, we

19

need to have useful conversations and

useful conversations requires knowing the

20

facts of whatever you're talking about.

21

So today we have, uh, we have a

guest who thinks, writes about and

22

excavates those facts for living.

23

So we have Hannah Ritchie here from our

world in data, a nonprofit dedicated

24

to publishing research and data to make

progress on the world's greatest problems.

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So.

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Outside of Our World in

Data, Hannah also does a lot.

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She's given a TED talk this summer.

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She, uh, she's been writing

a book, which we'll get into.

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And she's also writing a, uh, weekly

ish newsletter, which is really great.

30

I highly recommend it.

31

I've Read all of these, uh,

all of these new dispatches.

32

So first, Hannah, I want to say

congratulations on the announcement

33

last week from Vox for being

part of the future perfect 50.

34

It was really cool to see you with all

of the, all of the others in the cohort.

35

No, thank you very much.

36

Yeah, it was a big surprise to me as well.

37

Like they tell you like a day

before, Hey, you're going to be

38

announced tomorrow as on this list.

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So yeah, it was a great privilege.

40

And there's like other amazing people

on the list, especially on like climate

41

stuff, um, that I really admire.

42

So it's like a pleasure

to be next to them.

43

Yeah, yeah, no, it's like I was just like

reading some of the people on the list.

44

And yeah, it was like a really,

really cool, like suite of people

45

doing, uh, doing really great stuff.

46

Okay.

47

So I wanted to start off this conversation

really about the, the book that you've

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been writing and getting ready to

publish, uh, in about a month from now.

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And what I wanted to ask you is this book,

it's called not the end of the world.

50

It's a book that you wrote kind of for.

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For others, but also for a younger

version of yourself, you wrote that

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it's like the, it's the book that you

wish you had when you were younger.

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So what I wanted to ask at the

beginning is just when did this

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book start percolating within you?

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Was it something that like, when you

were younger, you're like, okay, I,

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I wanted to write something and then

you didn't really know what shape it

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was going to take, or did it just come

more like within the last few years?

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Yeah, so I think I've always loved books.

59

I've always liked reading, I've

always loved writing, and I think

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when I was younger I always saw that

maybe someday I would write a book.

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That was kind of the dream.

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And I think even when I was deciding,

like, when you get to that fork in the

63

road, like, after school and going to

university, I think there was two paths.

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One, I could go down a very

scientific path, or the other was

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I was really interested in writing.

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I could see myself maybe being,

like, I don't know, like a

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science journalist or something.

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So, like, I also had this And I tried to

decide, like, should I go for the science

69

degree and then do writing on the side?

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Or should I go for the journalism degree

and try to learn science on the side?

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And I decided I should go the science

route and then try to just, um, enhance

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my writing skills along the way.

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So, yeah, I've always

had an interest in this.

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I think that It came down to when was

like the right time to write the book.

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And I think, I think I had this kind

of brewing for maybe a decade or so.

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Um, and I think it was, I, once I started

writing it, I could feel like, I think

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this is like the, the right time where I,

I feel like I've built up enough knowledge

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and, and building the narrative around

it that I can, I can produce like a.

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A good book here, um, whereas I

think if I tried to do it a few years

80

earlier, I maybe could have produced

an okay book, but I think it wouldn't

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had, have had like the full, uh, kind

of narrative enveloped around it.

82

So I felt like this was like

the right time to go for it.

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Yeah, totally.

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And like one of the, like one of the

things I noticed while reading, reading

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the book is that you aren't just,

you do infuse bits and pieces of your

86

own journey within, within the book.

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But really it's a, it's a book

about facts, a book about data,

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a book about long term trends.

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And like you were saying, it's probably

a good Testament that you waited for

90

a while before writing this book.

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So you can really amass all of this.

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All of this knowledge because you tackle

like a wide range of topics, right?

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Like you were tackling a lot of the

big problems within sustainability,

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but this like touches on many

different aspects of our world.

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Yeah.

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So every chapter is a different

environmental problem.

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So actually climate surprisingly

is just one, one chapter.

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And then there's air

pollution, deforestation food.

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There's like seven different.

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problems.

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I think the key point is that they

tend to all interweave together.

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So they're, they're not like, it's

not as if we're tackling seven

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completely different problems and

we need 50 different solutions

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for these seven problems.

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I think the, the solutions

often interconnect to one

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another, but yeah, I think.

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I think a key part of this process was I

didn't, when I, when I started researching

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this stuff, like maybe like five, ten

years ago, I never ever came into these

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questions like knowing the answer.

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It's been a journey of, I have this

question, I'm sure other people also have

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this question, what does the data and

research tell us in a pretty objective

112

way, like trying to put the kind of

subjective moral lens aside and to

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say, like, what does the data actually

tell us about what's happening to CO2

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emissions or deforestation or plastics?

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And, and that kind of curiosity really

spurred me to, to try and find the

116

answers and then try to explain them.

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But I think if I publish it a few

years earlier, I, I don't think I

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would have had the complete package and

probably I would have got stuff wrong.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Uh, this, this makes total sense.

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Can you, do you have like some examples

where you have come across some piece

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of research or some data where like

it really kind of went against what

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you would have guessed going in?

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Yeah.

125

I think one of the key examples

there, um, Is palm oil.

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So I did a big project for our

own data looking at deforestation.

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And I think I, I had in my head,

like most people have in their

128

heads, is that palm oil is evil.

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If we want to stop deforestation,

we need to stop producing palm oil.

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And that's kind of the, the

framing I had into my head when

131

I went into doing the topic.

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And then kind of my perspective

on that was turned a lot just by

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looking at the data and research and

what experts were saying on this.

134

I would have thought the solution to

the palm oil problem is just a boycott.

135

Boycott palm oil and not use

it entirely, and actually none

136

of the experts recommend that.

137

And just briefly, the reason

for that is that palm oil is an

138

incredibly productive crop, right?

139

In terms of producing vegetable oil,

palm oil is how you produce the most

140

amount of oil using the least land.

141

So palm oil has led to

deforestation, that's irrefutable.

142

Um, But the question is, if you

weren't using palm oil to meet that

143

demand, what would you use instead?

144

So if you were to switch to a different

crop, say, coconut oil, for example,

145

you would actually need to use more

land to produce the same amount of oil,

146

which would mean you would actually

displace The deforestation elsewhere

147

and actually would increase the

amount of deforestation that you had.

148

So I think you often, when you

step back to look at the data and

149

the research, you often find these

counterintuitive findings, which is

150

actually quite a better pill to swallow.

151

Cause we always have this preconceptions

and we want to find evidence that, that

152

confirms those and exacerbates those.

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Um, but actually in this case,

the data did not tell me what

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I expected it to tell me.

155

Yeah.

156

Yeah.

157

I remember.

158

reading this part of the book and yeah,

definitely it's sticking out to me.

159

So I guess like one of the, the,

one of the elements here about

160

digging into data is also thinking

about these knock on effects, right?

161

So like you're talking about palm oil

and saying like, it's not just about

162

like how, but, but the oil itself, but

it's about like these knock on effects

163

of like how much, how much land do

you need to grow, uh, to grow this

164

particular, um, crop and like how, how.

165

How does this like affect other

parts of the of like the whole supply

166

chain for palm oil, for example,

so I suppose this is also like a

167

difficult, um, it's a difficult skill

for many people to, to, to build, or

168

rather, it might take a long time.

169

I mean, you've been doing this now for

a while, and so you might like come

170

across some, some piece of data, and

then you're like, okay, I have this

171

piece of data, but what does this

mean for the next like parts in the

172

chain here and for for someone that.

173

It's just, uh, it's just starting

out or they just might be, um, like

174

say seeing a figure in the news or on

television or something like this, it

175

might like lack this context, I guess,

for really understanding what's going on.

176

Yeah, I think, I think the

key point there is the.

177

I try to never just go with my gut or go

with my intuition because even after doing

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this data stuff for a long time on topics

that I know very little about or coming

179

new to, I just, I don't have a sense of

intuition for it and I think most people

180

don't have a sense of intuition for it.

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I mean, that's fine.

182

I mean, the point is you step

back, you take your time, you look

183

at the data to try and understand

it before jumping to conclusions.

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I think what's really key, you

highlight a really important point

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that there's often knock on impacts,

positive or negative in various ways.

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I think what's really key for me when

we're talking about solutions in this

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space is that I think We too often

are looking for this perfect solution.

188

So we're looking for the energy

technology that has zero impacts,

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that you don't need any land.

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You don't need any materials.

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It has zero carbon emissions.

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I think the reality is that there's

just no perfect solutions in this space.

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And I think we need to

come to terms with that.

194

And I think if we don't come to terms

with that, then we really, really slow

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down progress because we, we rule out any

option that has a tiny amount of impact.

196

So I think what's important with the

numbers is to try and give a sense of

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perspective of, you need to just say,

it has this impact compared to what?

198

So if, um, building a solar panel

maybe emits a bit of carbon because

199

you're using energy to do that, the

correct conclusion is not, this is a

200

bad option because it emits carbon.

201

The question is, how much carbon does

it emit compared to coal or compared

202

to gas, which you're replacing it with?

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And the answer is way, way, way, way less.

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So we should be pursuing those solutions

because it just makes a massive

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difference compared to the status quo.

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But if we're expecting that we're going

to find solutions that have zero impacts,

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then we'll just be looking forever and

we actually won't make any progress.

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Yeah, I think that that's incredible.

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I was going to ask a dummy

question, which was, what would

210

you say the role of data is?

211

But I think that you already

sort of started to outline

212

What the role of data is.

213

I mean, I wouldn't say ideally, but

I mean, general thinking is that it's

214

more like, well, you get the data

and you, um, set a course of action.

215

But from what you're saying, it's more

like, well, if you get the data, you

216

have to do some thinking, you have to

do some comparison, you have to do some

217

interpretation of the data before, um,

getting to, Yeah, I think the role,

218

the role of data there is to try to

find some grounding and truth on what's

219

going on and what options we have.

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I think, I think what's really cool

for us, uh, our world in data and

221

also a bit in my communication on

climate as well, is that I think, I

222

think too often it's portrayed as.

223

Just follow the science.

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And that's what people

would say with the data.

225

Just follow the data.

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But the role of science and data

there is not actually to tell anyone

227

what we should do, because that's a

much bigger question that takes into

228

consideration what does the science

say, um, what are the political

229

considerations around that, what are

the economic considerations around that.

230

Just following the data or following

the science won't get you to a concrete

231

conclusion of this is what we should do.

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But what science and data can tell you is,

is we're on this course on climate change.

233

Once we start to reach these temperatures,

these are what the impacts are.

234

And then it's actually for others

to make the decision of, okay, this

235

is bad, what should we do about it?

236

It's about the data which will tell

us, um, if we want to reduce carbon

237

emissions, these are our options.

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These are the most effective options.

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And then it's about others to, to

figure out, should we implement them?

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What scale should we implement them at?

241

So I think that's the role of the

data is to, is to show, show a range

242

of options, a range of, Of, of, of

futures and then it's for, and sometimes

243

others to then decide we should do this

based on the evidence that we have.

244

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense.

245

And it's something I, like, I

wouldn't have appreciated as much

246

like in my, so I'm, uh, I'm like,

uh, have a scientific background.

247

So like me, it's like very, uh, for

like physics and mathematics and like.

248

Thinking about these topics and

then like kind of abstracting away.

249

It's like, okay, the, the question of

like what you should do is different.

250

And then it's like, just look at the

data, but yes, this point of, uh, you

251

need to kind of map out the possible

futures, but this doesn't tell you

252

anything about which futures you

should be taking or you want to take

253

or what most people will want to take.

254

So this is also a challenge.

255

I want to ask you, um, something I've

been wondering a lot about is how do

256

you get people to care about data?

257

Versus their own perspective.

258

So your colleague, um, Max Roser

has, has, has this essay called like

259

the, the value of statistics and the

limits of our personal experience.

260

And I thought it was, it was bringing

up a really good point of that.

261

We, we can base a lot of our worldviews

on just kind of our own personal

262

experience of the people we talk

to, but this doesn't necessarily.

263

necessarily represent the whole world

or it doesn't inform us on some of

264

these like bigger worldwide questions.

265

So do you, do you have any

thoughts on like how we can get

266

people to care more about data,

care about digging into the data?

267

Yeah, I think, I think, uh, yeah,

Max's article on that was very good.

268

One point of his article was

one, if you're basing it on like.

269

Personal perceptions around you and your

kind of personal story and maybe your

270

personal stories of a few people around

you, you're building like quite a narrow

271

base of, of understanding the world.

272

But I think he also highlighted that you

get this problem with media where, um,

273

if you think of it as little, I think

the way he framed it was like little dots

274

on like this black, kind of black sheet.

275

And with the, with, uh, kind of

personal experiences, you're building

276

lots of dots around your little

circle, like it's people around you.

277

What you get from the news media

is maybe little dots, but like

278

spread really far out, right?

279

So I might get a perspective of one news

story in Thailand, and one news story

280

in China, and one news story in the U.

281

S.

282

But again, these are just really,

really small snapshots that

283

don't let us build a complete.

284

Vision of the world.

285

And the only way to really do that is to,

to look at data because with data, you

286

can essentially capture the experiences

of eight billion people, right?

287

You can figure out what's going

on with CO2, what's going on with

288

poverty, what's going on with hunger.

289

So data is really the route into

understanding the bigger picture.

290

Um, how to get people to care about it

is, is actually probably with great.

291

difficulty.

292

I think one way to do it is

I think what I found joy.

293

I mean, I didn't start

out as a data scientist.

294

I was an environmental scientist.

295

I mean, what really sparked interest in

it for me was often these counterintuitive

296

findings or actually just the appreciation

that like a lot of my perceptions were

297

actually really out of line with the data.

298

The way I discovered this was

through Hans Rosling who would do TED

299

talks where he would basically show

that all of our like really basic.

300

conceptions about the

world were really wrong.

301

And for me, that like, that's part of.

302

Where the joy in that came from was

an exchange of this joy of finding

303

out that I was completely wrong.

304

But then this curiosity of going

out to find out, like, what

305

does the data actually show?

306

So I think to some extent it's playing

on the curiosity to understand the world.

307

Okay, I've got a question.

308

Um, so I mean, and I know you interact

with people every day in the course of

309

the work that you do, but what, what is

a random person's relationship with data?

310

Like, like someone that

just comes across data.

311

How, I mean, in your experience,

how do they even approach data?

312

What is the, what is the most common

relationship that people have with data?

313

Because I think it, Yeah.

314

And the other part of the question is,

what should our relationship with data be?

315

Um, because, I mean, on Carbon Sessions,

we have pretty regular people listening

316

to this, and they just need something

that can help them the next time they come

317

across something that we've discussed.

318

So, the first question is, what's

people's relationship with data like?

319

And then, what should it be like?

320

Are there a set of questions I

should be asking before, or are

321

there, like, very basic tools that

I can use to interpret the data?

322

Um, like, what, what, what does

that look like, generally speaking?

323

Yeah, I think that's a good question.

324

I think Most people's interaction with

data, I would say, comes from the news.

325

I think where people most frequently will,

will, uh, be exposed to data is, is a

326

statistic in a news article, or on the TV

news, or if you get media, uh, your news

327

through Twitter or social media platform.

328

It's like within a framing of a story

within the media, I think, is where

329

most people are exposed to data.

330

Now, I think one of the dangers of, of

data is that as soon as someone uses

331

a statistic or a number or a graph,

it takes on this field of authority

332

of, of course, this must be correct.

333

Um, and I think that is actually a

danger in itself because there are

334

ways, I mean, there's loads of books

on how to lie with statistics or how

335

to manipulate data, which The number

there might be actually correct, but

336

it's actually giving you a different

framing or a different understanding

337

of the situation just by leave, what,

basically what's being left out.

338

So I think one, like, when, when

you come across a statistic, I think

339

some really key questions to ask

are one, who's publishing this data?

340

Um, is there, you know, some ulterior

motive behind it where you should

341

be a bit more skeptical than normal?

342

Is that an impartial source?

343

Um, again, framing it in the context.

344

So I think if you think about carbon

emissions, for example, just a

345

really good barometer is considering.

346

Like scale.

347

So is it hundreds, thousands,

millions, billions of tons?

348

Like globally we emit around 41

billion tons of CO2 every year.

349

So if you're thinking about something and

you see thousands of tons of CO2, like

350

we automatically think when it comes to

thousands of, wow, that's really big.

351

But in the scale of 41 billion tons,

that's really, really not a lot.

352

So it's trying to bring context

into, is that a big number?

353

And then I think another key thing is

to, it seems really basic to, but to ask.

354

What's the, what's actually

being measured here?

355

Or like, what's the actual

definition of this metric?

356

Because I think this can often trip

people up where, but the metric

357

is actually not representing what

they think that it represents.

358

So actually a big focus for us,

which seems really stupid, but

359

on our world in detail, we spend

a ton of time with our top.

360

Our titles and subtitles because

people will look at the chart and they

361

read the title and the subtitle and

that's how they perceive the data.

362

So it's really core for us that when

people are looking at a graph on our own

363

data, they can immediately understand

this is what this metric captures

364

and this is what has been measured.

365

And I think when you just see a

number, a news article, you often

366

really don't have that perspective.

367

Yeah.

368

And what's.

369

Turns out to me right now is

putting context to the data.

370

I think that is very, very critical

because otherwise then we risk

371

misinterpreting the data just

with the example that she gave.

372

So thank you.

373

Thank you so much.

374

Yeah.

375

And this idea of not having numbers in

isolation or data points in isolation,

376

this can be very, very, very tricky

to understand what's going on.

377

If you just have one number

and no context around it.

378

I think with this one, there's

something, there's one is.

379

more thing on that is to also rather

than just always look at like one

380

snapshot is to look at the trend.

381

Um, cause I think that also really shapes,

um, your understanding of this issue.

382

So, um, like one example I might

use there is, um, which is not

383

related to climate, but we cover

global health is child mortality.

384

Right.

385

So.

386

The number of children that die

every year is around 5 million.

387

Right?

388

So that's horrendous, and most

of those deaths are preventable.

389

But, just looking at that number, 5

million, that gives you no perspective

390

as to, like, going up or down, or

things getting better or worse.

391

You might look at that 5 million and

assume, well, this is just the highest

392

that child mortality has ever been.

393

Like, the world's just getting

worse and worse and worse.

394

But actually, when you look at

the trends, like Chill mortality

395

is falling very quickly, so a few

decades ago that was 12 million.

396

Um, and go back further in history

and it was, it was even higher.

397

So I think it's important to

understand the trend and the

398

direction of travel so that you can

frame that number within context.

399

Is it going up or down?

400

Are things getting better or worse?

401

And that's not to course, that's not to

dismiss that 5 million doesn't matter

402

or that we're in a fine position.

403

But I think actually looking historically

and seeing that we have made progress,

404

that number is going down, should give

us a drive to say, well, we, we won't

405

accept that 5 million children are

dying and we can drive that down lower.

406

So I think looking at the

trend is also important.

407

Yeah, that's, that's right.

408

I wanted to, I wanted to pivot a little

bit and, and talk about, um, Talk about

409

sustainability because this is like

one of the core themes in your book.

410

I mean, okay, we were touching on this

already, but, um, one of the first things

411

that I, that I learned, um, while reading

your book was just this, uh, this very old

412

definition of sustainability and how it

like has, uh, has multiple parts to it.

413

Can you speak a little bit about

this for, uh, for, for our audience?

414

Yeah.

415

So, I mean, I think there are just

multiple definitions of sustainability

416

and I think like, it's very.

417

It's totally fine to debate those.

418

I think as an environmentalist,

my, and my, coming at that from

419

my background, I would often frame

just sustainability as having a low

420

environmental impact so we don't ruin

the planet for future generations and

421

other species on the planet as well.

422

But I think to me that that's

a bit of a limiting definition.

423

And the reason I say that is because it's

not just about having a low environmental

424

impact for future generations.

425

I also care about the

current generation, right?

426

I care about human suffering.

427

I think everyone alive today

should have access to like a

428

good high standard of living.

429

And actually that comes to the definition

that's like a bit more like a conventional

430

sustainable development definition, which

has two halves and one half is meeting

431

the needs of the current generation.

432

So ensuring that eight billion people

have a good life and, um, not sacrificing

433

opportunities for future generations.

434

So that's about having a

low environmental impact.

435

So basically provide a good

life for everyone without having

436

a high environmental impact.

437

I think the argument I put forth in

the book is that historically We've

438

actually never really achieved both

of those halves at the same time.

439

I think we have this notion that

we've only become unsustainable

440

in the very recent past, and I

actually don't really think that's

441

true based on this definition.

442

And the reason is our ancestors might

have had a low environmental impact,

443

but they did not have high standards

of living, at least not by our

444

kind of modern definitions of that.

445

And the example I use in the book

is, is child mortality, where for

446

most of human history, between a

third and a half of children were

447

dying before reaching puberty, right?

448

That's like unimaginable levels to, like,

we could never imagine those levels today,

449

that half of children would, would die.

450

But that was like, the reality

for most of human history.

451

What we've had over the last few centuries

is almost like a tipping where human

452

living standards have improved a lot

and they've improved across the world.

453

This is not just like, uh, elites

have, have, um, living conditions

454

for the elites have improved.

455

Like child mortality has

fallen across the world.

456

Extreme poverty has

fallen across the world.

457

We have education, vaccines, like

we've made amazing human progress

458

over the last few centuries, but it's

came at the cost of the environment.

459

So we are now face all of

these environmental crises.

460

And the argument I put forth in the

book is that I think we could be

461

the first generation that does both

of these things at the same time.

462

I think it is possible to

continue human progress with

463

a lower environmental impact.

464

And I think that we would

be, in some sense, the first

465

generation to achieve Yeah.

466

And I mean, part of, part of this in

your book is you have this, uh, like this

467

concept, I'm calling it like decoupling

where it was like these standards of

468

living keep going up, but we can decouple

these from kind of the, uh, you can call

469

it like extraction of resources or like

negative impacts to the environment.

470

And I thought this was, this was

quite a, quite a, quite a neat idea.

471

Like I hadn't really.

472

seen these, these, uh,

charts before showing this.

473

So I thought this was quite eyeopening.

474

So I mean, if you take the example of,

of CO2 there, um, we've seen historically

475

this really tight relationship that as,

uh, GDP, so as goes up, so as people

476

get richer, they tend to just lead more

energy intensive and carbon intensive

477

lifestyles, and that's completely true.

478

And that's what the data says.

479

But what we are also seeing is that it

is possible to decouple these impacts.

480

So you can increase GDP or increase other

metrics, which would be, represent human

481

standards of living with CO2 emissions.

482

And the reason for that is you can

replace the coal or the gas or the petrol

483

car with Uh, solar or wind or electric

vehicles so that your CO2 emissions come

484

down, but actually you're not impacting

the standards of living in that country.

485

So it is possible with technology

combined with economic and political

486

solutions that you can bend that curve

and actually decouple these two things.

487

So, so then I guess my.

488

My, my like follow up question to this

is that this, this idea of like, we have

489

these sustain sustainability with these

two parts and this idea of decoupling

490

means that we can keep improving the, um,

the, the lives of people today without,

491

uh, sacrificing those in the future.

492

I wondered for you, this

is not, this is not.

493

As much of a data question, or

maybe it is, you can tell me if

494

it is more of a data question,

but how do you balance these two?

495

So like now it was like, okay,

sustainability has these two

496

parts, but how do we actually

think about balancing them?

497

Because, okay, we could like prioritize

the needs of people today, which

498

is kind of, I guess what we did

historically, because you can't really

499

think about people in the future when

you need to like survive yourself.

500

And now we have an opportunity to

kind of like make it more balanced.

501

Should we be shifting this

more one way or the other?

502

Like how, how could we.

503

Start thinking about this.

504

I think there the trap you're

falling into is that you're

505

assuming that there's a trade off.

506

And I think what I'm arguing is

that there isn't a trade off.

507

I think if you take the example

of energy as an example.

508

The reason that we were never able to

do this in the past is our options for

509

energy were either you burned wood.

510

Which we did for most of human history.

511

And then we discovered fossil fuels.

512

So you burn fossil fuels that

were your only, those were

513

your only options for energy.

514

We're now in the position where we

have solar, we have wind, we have other

515

alternative technologies and the issue

we were having say a decade ago, even.

516

is that these energy sources

were too expensive, right?

517

So you would have actually came to the

conclusion that there was this trade off

518

because if someone's living in energy

poverty, um, they're having to decide do

519

they go for the expensive solar and wind

to help the environment or do they just

520

increase their energy consumption which

would be like higher standards of living.

521

We're now in the position where solar

and wind are the cheapest energy sources.

522

So actually, they are, they are, in some

sense, that's no longer incompatible.

523

You can relieve energy poverty

using really, really cheap,

524

low carbon energy sources.

525

Now the question there is, is

different levels of income.

526

I think we're, for high income

countries, there's really no reason

527

at all why we can't just quickly

deploy these technologies and

528

massively reduce our footprint.

529

Um, I think the key for lower

income countries is because they

530

are more finance constrained

is how can rich countries help?

531

And there's two ways.

532

One, they can directly finance

those energy technologies.

533

And the other one is, um, by innovating

and driving these technologies

534

themselves, you push down the

cost for lower income countries.

535

So they don't face this trade off

between do they have low carbon

536

emissions or do they alleviate poverty?

537

Because solar, wind or other

technologies will just be the cheapest.

538

Yeah, this, this, this, this was a

good point you made to in the book,

539

basically like these decoupling curves,

you can kind of shortcut for these,

540

uh, lower income countries where, for,

by, for, for higher income countries or

541

yeah, for countries with higher income,

they can go and kind of subsidize

542

or like make it easier to deploy

these, um, technologies, uh, quickly.

543

So, yeah, thanks.

544

Uh, thanks.

545

Thanks for this perspective.

546

What, one of the, one of the other

parts in the book that you, that.

547

That you, you get at with

sustainability is that we have like

548

all of these different problems.

549

You have, I think, seven in the book,

um, seven, like different issues

550

that, uh, that you tackle and that

there's a lot of overlap between them.

551

So can you talk about how, like,

what, like, uh, helping, helping, for

552

example, air pollution can affect these

other, um, problem topics as well?

553

Sure.

554

Yeah.

555

I think this is, um, Also a bit of a

trap we fall into where we just see

556

environmental problem after environmental

problem after environmental problem.

557

And I think we, we often are worried

that if I make this choice for

558

climate change, am I going to make

another problem much, much worse?

559

So we can end up feeling pretty

paralyzed about our solutions

560

because we automatically assume that

there's just like no, no solutions

561

that cover all of our bases.

562

And there are, I think there are

just like a core, like five to 10

563

different solutions that really

cut across most of these problems.

564

If you take the example of.

565

of air pollution.

566

The problem with air pollution

is burning stuff, right?

567

You burn stuff and you produce

particulates, which is air pollution,

568

which is bad for our health.

569

If you produce energy without burning

stuff, then you don't have air pollution.

570

So basically, the core to that is that

if you stop burning wood, which for some

571

people in the world is still their core

energy source, is like wood and biomass,

572

but for most people it's fossil fuels.

573

So if you stop burning woods and you stop

burning fossil fuels, which is, we can

574

do, we have alternative technologies,

then you address air pollution, right?

575

You massively reduce air pollution, but

you also have the same solution to address

576

climate change, like stop burning fossil

fuels and you tackle climate change and

577

air pollution at exactly the same time.

578

If you take another example, eating meat.

579

So a big environmental impact is

global meat production, and in

580

particular beef tends to be the

worst in terms of its impact.

581

Um, you reduce your beef or meat

consumption, you help climate change, to

582

some extent you also help air pollution,

you help deforestation because that's the

583

leading driver of deforestation, you help

global food systems and food production,

584

you also address biodiversity loss.

585

So there you're hitting.

586

Well, one solution, you're hitting five

different problems at the same time.

587

So I think these are the just core set

of solutions that really cross cut many

588

of our, uh, environmental problems.

589

Yeah, this is, this is

a really good point.

590

Plus it comes back to what you

were saying earlier that you don't

591

have to, like, we can do a lot

without having a perfect solution.

592

So for example, with this, uh, with

the, the point about eating, uh, eating

593

less meat, uh, I think this is a really

good point is just like, okay, if

594

you eat less meat, uh, we can make.

595

quite a big dent in our impact, even

if you don't have to make the, you

596

know, the, the full, you go the full

way of like, just stopping eating meat.

597

And like, I know you've, you mentioned,

um, like some, some estimates in

598

the book that, that get at this,

whereas like you have crazy amount

599

of reduction by just having just a

little bit less meat per week, but you

600

still end up, you can still eat meat.

601

Like there's no issue with this.

602

You don't have to like, you know,

Shift your whole personal identity,

603

which can be very difficult.

604

Um, and you still get

this, uh, massive impact.

605

So I think this is also a good point

is like, just, we can tackle all

606

of these problems at the same time.

607

And we also don't have to, we

don't have to settle for, you

608

know, perfect solutions first.

609

Yeah, I think it's, like, it's often

about, um, people starting down a

610

particular journey or route, like, I

think, like, I, I've never advocated that

611

everyone should go vegan, because I think

for most people, actually, that's, that's

612

a massive step, and it's like, actually a

barrier, because they think, oh, there's

613

no way I could be vegan, but for many

people in the world, they could go vegan.

614

have a meatless one or two days a week.

615

Um, and that would probably

quite achievable for them.

616

Um, and then actually from there,

I think then it starts to build.

617

So like you go meatless for a

day, you realize, Oh, there's

618

actually like really good vegan

products, um, that I really enjoy.

619

So you make it two days.

620

And I think from there, there's

a gradual process, but I think.

621

Like assuming that everyone's

going to jump in and go straight to

622

vegan is just really unrealistic.

623

Yeah.

624

And I don't think that should stop people

from taking action because sometimes,

625

I mean, we feel like the action we need

to take is huge, especially when we

626

look at the magnitude of the problem.

627

And it's like, well, there

really is nothing I can do.

628

So let me do nothing then.

629

Um, but yeah, based off of what you said,

it's really important that we do the

630

much we can, um, have a quote that says

do what you can until you can do more.

631

And when you can do more, then do more.

632

And keep doing more until you can do more.

633

Uh, so that's, that's pretty good.

634

I think there's also just really strong,

like, peer effects of, like, doing the

635

action and then to some extent, like,

talking a little bit about the action.

636

Like, the, the, the example I use

there is, um, like, electric vehicles.

637

I think a decade ago, everyone was

really sceptical to buy an electric car

638

because they didn't know anyone with an

electric car, they had no idea, like,

639

is it hard to charge, like, do you

just, like, break down on the motorway?

640

I mean, there's loads of these barriers.

641

That they actually need to, need

to see other people buying them,

642

having positive experiences, um,

talking to the friend that has got

643

one and actually really enjoys it.

644

I think we're now in the position

where a lot of those barriers have

645

been lowered, um, because people

have actually just adopted it and,

646

and, um, are chatting about it.

647

Yeah, and, and just, just to add to that,

I think the other thing is if you find

648

a cause or something you can do, even

though you're, you're an early adopter,

649

it's okay to be an early adopter, because

then it takes a lot of early adopters for.

650

Everyone to now adopt the solution.

651

So it's, it's perfectly

okay to be an early adopter.

652

I think it's like really

crucial to be an early adopter.

653

Like earlier, we were talking about this,

this, uh, like trade off discussion.

654

I think the question often, especially

for, I mean, I don't know what the

655

demographic of the audience is,

but I think especially for rich

656

countries, there's this question of.

657

I'm sitting in the UK right now

and there's always the argument

658

of the UK only emits 1 percent

of the world's carbon emissions.

659

Like what we do doesn't matter,

but I think there, there's

660

like another impact there.

661

One is just the UK needs to get its

emissions as close to zero as possible,

662

especially as a rich country with

a large historical responsibility.

663

But the other role that rich countries

can do is to be the early adopters, right?

664

When these technologies start out,

they tend to be pretty expensive and

665

we want to get those costs low for.

666

Middle and low income

countries to implement them.

667

So the role of rich countries or rich

consumers is to be the early adopters

668

and really force that curve downwards.

669

Yeah, that's profound.

670

And I guess like here, part of, part

of the issue sometimes, or maybe not an

671

issue, but something to, to think about

is that to get say, um, richer countries

672

to, to help, um, these lower income

countries, we have to have a sense.

673

At least in my mind, that's where

like, you know, a global species

674

is like, it's not just us in our

country that we need to care about.

675

It's like, there's other people

that it's really helped to,

676

to, to help them as well.

677

Yeah, totally.

678

I mean, yeah, one is just working

on global problems and caring

679

about other people in the world.

680

Um, but I think that gets like even more.

681

difficult when you're talking

about other species, right?

682

Like if we can't even get people to

care about someone like a human on the

683

other side of the world, how do we get

them to care about biodiversity loss?

684

Um, so it's like, it's, it's,

it's just very difficult.

685

I think one thing I'd say on

that is that, uh, climate change

686

is often framed as this like.

687

Collective action problem where

like it's never in like exactly in

688

one single country's interest to

act on it because it also depends

689

on what other countries are doing.

690

I think I think to some extent that's

true, but I think we also need just need

691

to really highlight like some of the like.

692

Selfish, and I say selfish

in inverted commas, reasons

693

for, for countries to do that.

694

And I think that comes back to, there's

loads of local benefits to implementing

695

the solutions that address climate change.

696

So if you take electric cars, for

example, or like electric vehicles,

697

or investing in public transport.

698

Like it's not just about climate.

699

One, you reduce local air pollution.

700

If you invest in public transport,

you have like Productivity

701

gains, you lower congestion.

702

If you implement renewables, you get lower

energy costs and higher energy security.

703

So there's lots of like

localized benefits.

704

I think we also should really

emphasize because there is this

705

like collective action problem on

climate, um, on climate change.

706

That's profound.

707

So Liki has got a question here.

708

She says, um, she'd like to get

your perspective on helping a

709

grandma understand the difference

between data and rumors or what

710

her friends could have told her.

711

So, um, uh, yeah, that's that.

712

Oh, I mean, I mean, I, I still

have that problem with my

713

grandma, so I haven't solved it.

714

Um, I think, I think to some

extent it's, it's very variable

715

depending on like how people get

news and where they get news from.

716

I think there are some demographics

where like the truth is just

717

what their friend told them or

like what the latest rumor is.

718

Um, I think, but I think

there are others where, um.

719

Most of our, um, news

consumption is online.

720

We have specific sources that we go to,

um, I think they are, even when you're

721

talking about online media, there's

often a slant one way or the other.

722

So like, I'm also still skeptical of

going to a media article and seeing

723

data as we discussed earlier, seeing

data there and taking that as the truth.

724

Um, I think you can also frame

like some of the data on some

725

media articles is also a rumor.

726

Um, so I think, I think it comes back

a little bit back to what we discussed

727

earlier of, how to approach statistics,

like what you should have in your mind

728

when you're encountering statistics.

729

Um, yeah, and I, like I'm, in terms of

like rumor of what our friends could

730

have told her, I think in general

I'm just like, try to stay away from

731

building a worldview on anecdotes.

732

Like I think there are, I think stories

are important and like they, they give

733

you like interesting perspectives, but

I, I try not to extrapolate and assume

734

that You know, what one person has

told me is true at a broader level.

735

Yeah.

736

I mean, the word, the world's big.

737

So like to really build a world view, it's

very difficult on a personal anecdote.

738

I wanted to ask you,

Hannah, for like the last.

739

So a few minutes we have here,

um, about your newsletter.

740

So you started it about a year ago.

741

Uh, can you talk a little bit

about the motivations behind this?

742

Like why you're having kind of just

like, uh, this like more personal

743

project outside of your work?

744

Yeah, no, I, uh, a year and a bit

ago I started this newsletter.

745

I mean, it's, you said earlier

that it's a weekly, like I've

746

tried, really try to like keep it

as close to weekly as possible.

747

Um, but yeah, like I do this kind of like

in my free time where I explore like.

748

Sustainability issues like

through the lens of numbers.

749

So like a lot of this stems from, I,

again, like I have a question on this and

750

I want to look at the data to find out and

rather than me just doing that in private,

751

maybe I should just put it online so

that others can learn from what I found.

752

So yeah, I tried to tackle like really

core questions that people have, like

753

I think the latest ones were like,

are we going to run out of minerals?

754

Um, for moving to renewable energy.

755

And the answer to that is no, but

like looking at the data to find out,

756

like, what do the numbers look like?

757

What does that tell us?

758

Rather than just jumping to a

conclusion one way or the other.

759

Um, I, one of the reasons that I have

this kind of personal project and not

760

all of it goes on our own data is that

I want it to be like a little bit more.

761

Exploratory, where I'm exploring

a, a question kind of on my blog,

762

like people's comments and inputs.

763

I think like one of the great things

about our own data, but also one of

764

the stresses of it is that people

go to our own data and take like,

765

this is like the final say on this.

766

Topic.

767

And this is like the ground truth,

which like puts a lot of pressure on.

768

Cause we, we take that very seriously

and want to get everything correct.

769

So the blog is like a little bit more

exploratory for me where I'm under like

770

a little bit less pressure of like,

this has to be like the absolute stellar

771

standard and I can, I can discuss

issues on a, on a different level, but

772

it all comes back down to the numbers.

773

Like, Oh, I, I, I ground all of this.

774

And what does the data tell us on

these really common questions that

775

people have about sustainability?

776

Yeah.

777

And I, I remember like one.

778

One of your newsletters in particular,

once I think it was a few posts

779

you had, which were about electric

vehicles in, um, in colder countries.

780

So like I'm, I'm from Canada.

781

Uh, it is very cold even right now.

782

And, uh, yeah, like one of the main

questions, whenever I talk to anybody

783

about electric vehicles here, it's like,

it is not going to work in the winter.

784

And I I've had like horror

stories about people losing

785

like half their batteries, like.

786

Capacity, uh, in the winter, like having

the car not start or like all of these

787

now granted, it does get cold here.

788

Like it gets very cold.

789

So like, I, I, I can believe that

there are definitely issues versus

790

like in warmer, um, in warmer places.

791

But you had this series of posts where

you were looking at the performance of,

792

uh, electric vehicles in colder countries,

Nordic countries, if I remember correctly.

793

And even there, I was

quite impressed by how.

794

Like how little the, the, the degradation

of in performance was like, okay, it's

795

not quite as cold as here some days,

but like it was still pretty cold, the,

796

in the, the, the regions you looked at.

797

So I thought this was quite, yeah.

798

And I think part of the motivation

for, for doing the blog is that I

799

think to people, there are loads of

these like really common questions

800

and like going into that, I had no

idea how much the range dropped in a.

801

Electric car battery in the cold, but

I, I wanted to know the answer and I,

802

I tried to find the answer in the data.

803

I think what I've also seen recently is

I think there's been like a significant

804

uptick in the media and, and like

disinformation on, on like renewables

805

on electric cars on the latest one is

like heat pumps where like a lot of

806

these claims are trotted out and Loads

of people believe them, but actually

807

that's just not what the data says.

808

So I tried to like build a base

where if people want like fact based,

809

um, answers to these questions,

they can come, come and find it.

810

Now I was just going to say like another

reason to like also bring in the context

811

bit that we discussed earlier is that

like petrol cars also suffer in the cold.

812

Isn't they, their, um,

performance also drops.

813

So it's like, it's, uh, again,

the incorrect framing of.

814

Um, assuming that, okay, electric

car battery is suffering,

815

but a petrol car is fine.

816

And that's, that's not true.

817

Yeah.

818

Uh, as someone who has recently

had car troubles, I can attest

819

to this, it's not been great.

820

Uh, but, but yeah, like, uh, what, what

I also really like, uh, about your,

821

your, your blog is just, you have.

822

Well, I mean, again, you're presenting

the, this data, these numbers, but

823

it's not just like you saying like,

there's this statistic or whatever.

824

I mean, like you're, you're, you're

reading a bunch of papers and different

825

people that have already worked on this.

826

It's like, it's not you.

827

I think you probably mentioned

this in your newsletter.

828

It's like, it's not you

doing the research here.

829

It's more of the synthesis, like taking

all of these different, uh, like estimates

830

and, uh, different just case studies and

kind of putting them together to try to

831

answer maybe a slightly more, uh, Like

regular question that someone might have,

832

like, how is the, how is my Evie going?

833

My electric vehicle going to work?

834

I should say that like, I

don't do any of the hard work.

835

There's like researchers that like

properly do the hard work of like

836

doing the research and the data.

837

Actually, it's also true

for on our own data.

838

Like we rely really heavily on,

on amazing people doing the work

839

of providing the data, doing the

research where we see ourselves.

840

Um, and where I see my blog is like,

we almost see ourselves as like

841

translators, like this bridge between

the research and then the general

842

public or policy makers or journalists.

843

I think we have a, an issue in science

where there's loads of people doing

844

amazing work, but like the results never

get into the world where they can be used.

845

So a core part of our work is to

be this like bridge in this gap in

846

the middle where we, we bring the,

the important results to people

847

who can then put that into action.

848

Yeah.

849

And I suppose probably over like the last,

uh, like decade or so you've been doing

850

this, you've probably gotten a better

sense of what, what makes say a good

851

study, what makes a good research paper.

852

Cause I mean, okay, there's

a lot of science out there.

853

There's a lot of stuff that people

do, and you kind of have to like sort

854

through it and say like, okay, even.

855

Again, this idea of just because there's

a number that's out there doesn't mean

856

it's authoritative, even within science

itself, like, unfortunately, but it's

857

the case, because we're all human.

858

Um, so, so like, even sorting

through this is also, also an

859

important skill that I guess you've.

860

Yeah, I think being like really

highly engaged with the public has

861

been really useful in one shaping

like what are the core questions

862

that people have, like we can, we can

understand what do people misunderstand?

863

What are they curious about?

864

Um, and even once we've published an

article, like, Looking at the, the

865

comments and feedback, like it's not,

it's not always like that pleasurable,

866

but like understanding what are

the main pushbacks against this?

867

What are people like misunderstanding?

868

Have we not been clear enough in some way?

869

So I think like, yeah, doing this

really close public engagement

870

is really important for us.

871

Okay.

872

So I see where we're running,

uh, almost out of time.

873

So I want to ask you like one last

question, which is amongst your friends.

874

Are you the person they run to when they

have any like data science questions?

875

Like, are they like, Hannah,

I have this question.

876

I don't know how to answer it.

877

Can you please help me out?

878

Yeah, I can still, I can, I can, uh,

associate with often, like someone

879

will say a fact or what they think is

a fact or a number and then they'll

880

kind of give me a side eye of like,

is she going to support this or

881

is she like raising her eyebrows?

882

So yeah, I think they, they wait for my

level of skepticism about whether that.

883

that fact is actually correct.

884

Um, yeah.

885

Right.

886

Awesome.

887

So, so yeah, so thank you.

888

Thank you very much, Hannah,

for taking the time, um, for

889

coming on Carbon Sessions today.

890

Again, uh, your, your book's

coming out in January.

891

It's on January what?

892

Uh, the US is January 9th

and the UK is the 11th.

893

All right, awesome.

894

So yes, check out, check out her new book.

895

It's really good.

896

Uh, and also check out, check out

Hannah's newsletter, which, uh, which,

897

uh, comes out again, weekly ish.

898

It's, uh, it gives you a nice, uh, data

driven way of, uh, seeing the world and

899

just answering a bunch of questions.

900

So.

901

Again, thanks Hannah for being

on the podcast and, uh, do you

902

have any, any, uh, thing you want

to say as, uh, as closing out?

903

No, just thanks very much for having

me and keep working on the solutions.

904

Thank you so much.

905

All right.

906

Awesome.

907

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908

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909

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910

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911

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912

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913

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914

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915

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916

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917

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918

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919

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920

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921

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