On this episode Mike and Jason look back at the 2026 NBA Finals between the Knicks and Spurs.

• The Knicks capturing the magic of team basketball both individually and collectively
• Is Jalen Brunson a top 5 player in the league? Is he the best clutch player in the league?
• What do the Spurs do with De'Aaron Fox?
• Dylan Harper is ready
• What does Wemby need to add to his game? How does this loss affect his ultimate legacy? ( a crazy question to ask about someone who's 22)

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Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here with my co host Jason Sunkel, broadcasting from an undisclosed no, no.

I'm gonna let you.

I'm gonna let you figure it out, Mike.

Here it is.

Something very famous happened here.

Something very famous happened there.

Well, I don't know.

I have no idea.

Okay, second clue.

Second clue.

A hundred.

A hundred.

Well, let's see.

That doesn't help me at all.

Wilt Hershey PA in Hershey, Pennsylvania.

My dad and I golfed at Hershey Country Club yesterday and we went to Hershey park today for a little part of the day.

So there you go.

I'm in Hershey Penny.

There we go.

Did not see any single statue or commentation of the commendation about Wilt Chamberlain's 100 points.

But we're here.

We're in Hershey Pennsylvania.

So is Wilt's arena still there, do you know?

I don't believe it is.

It's a different.

There's an arena, but I don't believe it's the same.

I actually had one of my doctoral cohort members send me a text saying, hey, did you go see, like, the stadium that wilt square 100?

And then I Googled it, and I do not believe it's still standing, Mike.

Interesting.

I. I honestly don't know the answer to that.

It feels like something that I should know or be interested in, but I don't know the answer to that question.

Whether or not Wilts.

And then.

And then, like, the.

The fact that there's no video evidence or anything about.

Of him scoring a hundred points and all that stuff.

It's kind of mercurial.

And there's.

And there's.

I think that.

I think that game was only attended by, like, 4,200 people, if I'm not mistaken.

There was very few people actually in attendance at that game, if I recall.

Yeah, okay.

I'm looking right now.

I'm looking at it, but I remember.

I feel like Wilt Chamberlain score.

No, I don't want his.

I don't want his life story.

I just wanted to know, what arena did he score 100 points in?

Mike.

But I don't know.

All right, I'll do the crack research.

Staff will be on that.

But we're gonna.

We're really here to talk about the NBA Finals and how we were both completely wrong.

An Eastern Conference team.

An Eastern Conference team won the NBA championship.

Mike.

We've been saying since when?

October.

That it was impossible that an Eastern Conference team was going to win because it was going to be Oklahoma City or it was going to be San Antonio or it was going to be Denver.

We kept saying, well, no Eastern Conference team has any chance in hell to win the NBA championship.

And then Here we are June 16th, and the New York Knicks are the NBA champions.

Jalen Brunson is the MVP.

We got Karl Anthony Towns calling into this Howard Stern show today for an hour interview.

Like, what world are we living in?

We got WWE Superstar Danhausen now is going to be getting some, like, key to the city or something because he uncursed the New York Knicks there.

The WDWE is being so smart about this whole thing.

Like, they have an event there in, like, two weeks, and they are promoting it big time.

Danhausen's gonna come.

And he tweeted today, Mike.

WWE Danhausen tweeted today, New York Knicks I'm requesting a one day contracted the Knicks to then retire as a championship member of the New York Knicks.

He's going to get something, right?

They're going to get him a jersey, custom jersey or something.

Or something.

Funny, I, I think, I think whatever.

But anyways, here we are, Mike, here we are.

So I think what we want to do to make this efficient and also hit on some of the key points is kind of go through piece by piece and just share some thoughts.

And I think we have to start with just the New York Knicks and how in the world the New York Knicks did what they did.

And here's what I'll say.

Number one, the New York Knicks.

I think more so probably than any team in recent memory.

Maybe the early pre Durant Golden State warriors got to this level in terms of just playing basketball the way that it was meant to be played.

Meaning that the ball was flying around.

Nobody really cared on a given night who scored, who didn't score, who had to do this, who had to do that, having multiple guys step up in different moments on both ends of the floor, and whether that was an anobi's block of dear de' Aaron Fox, whether that was Jose Alvarado scoring five points in the final seconds of game four, whatever it was, whatever that team needed in the moment, they got it.

And I kept watching both their series against the Cavs and their series against the spurs and waiting for this team to revert, both individually and collectively to what they have always been and they just never did.

And when guys individually sort of stepped back and didn't play as well as maybe they had been at certain moments, other guys just stepped up to fill the void.

And it was not enjoyable to watch the Knicks because I was rooting for obviously the Cavs first and then the Spurs.

But after having a couple days to kind of step back and look at what the Knicks did, it's honestly almost unprecedented when you think about they won 53 games, they were third in a mediocre Eastern Conference.

I would say they probably underachieved based on what people thought they were going to do coming into the season, in the regular season.

Right?

I mean, not tremendously, but I don't think anybody thought the Knicks heading into the playoffs had it rolling or cooking on all cylinders and whatever.

And they just, after game three in Atlanta, they found something.

They found the magic of what it means to be a great basketball team.

And they unlocked what I say all the time, that the secret to playing winning basketball, it's pretty simple you have to be willing to share the ball.

And the Knicks did that and you have to play super hard.

And I think they did that.

And the other element that they had that pushed him over the top is Brunson, and we'll talk about him in a second.

But I just thought that they captured lightning in a bottle and I kept waiting for it to regress to the mean and it just never did.

Collectively, again, individually, Towns didn't have a great Finals.

Mikhail Bridges was kind of up and down.

He wasn't as good as he was in the Cav series where he shot 70%.

OG was obviously unbelievable in all four rounds.

The playoffs.

Brunson struggled a little bit in the first three games from a field goal percentage standpoint, but in the clutch, he was everything that you could ever want any player to be.

And they just found.

They found it.

Whatever it is that leads to winning basketball, the Knicks found it.

And they just never let go of it.

Yeah.

So I go back to what we talked about last week after game three.

And we said, like I said, all three of these games were either or games.

Right?

I said that 4 and 5 were either or games.

Again, it was the.

It was literally the same blueprint in all the games.

San Antonio gets out to a big lead.

A relatively.

A big lead or a relatively big lead?

New York comes back.

San Antonio extends the lead again.

New York comes back.

That whole game, game four, when they were up 29 and a half, we.

You and I were text.

You texted or.

Or not.

We.

That whole thing happened.

Then it.

It almost happened again in game four.

They got up to a huge lead again.

And then it happened again in Game 5.

Then, I mean, I don't know.

Cause I have not seen this talked about at all.

Have you seen it all?

Like, did San Antonio leave for more minutes in the series or did New York?

72% Is what I saw.

70.

They led for 72% of the minutes.

San Antonio did.

Right.

So.

Yes.

Crazy.

That's crazy.

Once again, I'm going to go back.

My boy, Kenny Atkinson.

Analytically speaking, San Antonio won the series.

Mike.

But final score does not say that.

And you got to give credit to all the guys.

I mean, like you said, it was a collective team effort.

I will say this.

Jordan Clarkson played an instrumental role in two to like two to three, four minutes of those games where he just came in.

He was, he made a few shots.

He was being antagonistic a little bit.

You know, Mitchell Robinson, they just did a really good job of him playing the defensive end.

Of the floor when he needed to play the defensive end of the floor and not making him shoot free throws.

You just, you look across the line.

A guy.

You didn't mention, Josh Hart, he's had a rough three point shooting season.

He shot the heck out of the ball at times against the Cavs, but he played a huge role in, in, in their, in the Knicks victory.

All of these things come to pass.

Like, they all came together.

Would you.

I mean, this is probably most.

The collect the most collective team championship.

Like you can go down the line and say these eight or nine guys all contribute in some way, shape or form.

And no.

You know, Carlton Hounds scored 13 points in game four.

And he's supposed to be the second or third best player on this team.

Second.

He's supposed to be the second best.

Player in the two points in game five.

Yeah.

So he's, he was pitiful.

Okay.

In the last two games, yet they still managed to pull out the victory.

Like, it's just crazy.

He was in foul trouble both those games, right?

Four and five.

I don't know.

But yes, yes, he was in foul trouble.

Listen, and we can talk about San Antonio's misgivings and all the ramifications, and that's probably where we're going to go next after this.

But, like, the bottom line is this, like, I'm not happy the New York Snicks won.

I'm happy for Mike Brown.

I'm happy for Mike Brown, okay, Because he got the shaft in Sacramento.

He got the shaft in Cleveland 2.0, okay?

He, he literally signed him.

You got him for one year and then you ousted him.

Okay, like, listen, I, I'm happy for him.

I'm really, I'm really overall happy for him.

He seems like a good dude, seems like a nice guy.

I loved him when he was the Cavs coach the first time.

I, you know, everything that happened and once again, this comes back to Sacramento again.

I just, I just don't.

Sacramento, Congrats.

I guess you get your former coach as an NBA champion.

Anyways, you know.

And you know what?

I, I'm.

I'm not going to enjoy the US Open in some aspects because I'm sure there's going to be a lot of New York Knicks nonsense while I'm there on Thursday.

There's going to be a lot of people in Knicks fans and that stuff, because we are literally.

The US Opens literally on Long Island.

So it's going to be lots and lots of fun with, with everyone there.

But ultimately, you know what?

I guess you know, at least they're a team.

And it's not a one player thing.

I would have been happy if San Antonio, I would have been happier if San Antonio won.

But I don't know, I just, they just played ethic bat ethical basketball.

And, and they, you know, as I think Jared Allen coined that term, ethical basketball, they played as a team and they worked together.

And you know what?

We can't listen.

We've been harping on all season how much we hate when there's guys dribbling, dribbling, dribbling and not doing anything.

We've talked a lot about that with James Harden, we've talked a lot about with the Cavs action.

This is, this was the antithesis of what we've been talking about since the James Harden acquisition.

Ball movement, playing together, people stepping up when they needed to step up and ultimately hats off to the Knicks.

It was the epitome of a team win a team playoff run a team championship.

And don't get me wrong, I'm going to talk about Brunson here in just a second, but when you look at, you mentioned just in terms of it being a little bit unusual the way that they ended up winning the title because typically you think that an NBA championship team, and we've talked about this before, has to have a top five player in the league in order for you to win a title.

You start working your way backwards and maybe you can quibble with Tatum and Brown.

Is one of those guys top five?

Well, certainly Tatum's probably on the cusp.

Maybe he wasn't considered a top five player or maybe he was number six or number seven.

But for the most part you have to have a guy that is a top five player in the league.

And heading into this playoffs, nobody was saying that Jalen Brunson was a top five player in the league.

He's never been first team all NBA.

I think that people have a lot of respect for who Jalen Brunson was as a Knick heading into this playoff run, but nobody had him as a top five player in the league.

And I think there was a lot of doubts, as has been discussed maybe ad nauseum in the media from Becky Hammond among many other people, saying that Brunson probably isn't capable of leading a team to a title.

And I told you this even before the Cavs played the Knicks this year, that just from watching him in the playoffs against the Cavs and seeing him do things in past playoffs, that I was deathly afraid of Jalen Brunson and I saw a tweet.

I don't know if you shared it with me, but I saw it somewhere where somebody from a Cavs fan or a Cavs broadcaster somebody said that Jalen Brunson is everything that Cavs fans hope that Donovan Mitchell would be.

And I think that's a really good way of kind of summarizing the difference in who Brunson was or who Brunson became in this playoff run, where I just never really doubted that he was going to come through, that he was going to make the plays.

You go back to the comeback against the Cavs, where Brunson did everything, and granted we thought, oh, he's doing it against James Harden.

And then he just did it against the San Antonio backcourt, obviously, which has a lot more defensive prowess than James Harden.

You take it back to last season.

They have two 20 point comebacks in the fourth quarter against Boston, which we spent a lot of time discussing that and putting the blame on Boston's three point shooting and just continuing to fire up bad shots.

But maybe we didn't give the Knicks enough credit for what they did, coming back twice from 20 points down against Boston when they were the defending champs at that point.

And I think it all begins and ends with Brunson and his ability to create space, make shots that are a high, high degree of difficulty, and just to have the ultimate belief in himself.

And I think that his teammates believed in him, believe in him.

And once those comebacks started happening, it became much easier to believe in the next one.

Everyone he's stacking up, it becomes easier to believe in the next one.

And so I look at this Knicks team and say they won it without a top five player in the league.

Is Brunson now a top five player in the league?

I don't, I don't know that I would characterize him as that, but if you ask me if there's one guy that I want with the ball in his hands in the fourth quarter, I'm not sure there's anybody else at this point that I would take over him.

I, I honestly don't think I would take Jokic.

I don't think I would take Shea.

I don't think I would take Giannis at this moment in their careers.

I'm not so sure I wouldn't take Brunson after what I just witnessed.

And again, doing it to James Harden is one thing.

Doing it to Steph Castle and, and, and Harper is, is a completely different thing.

And look, Brunson was unbelievable.

I told You.

I was scared to death of him before the Cavs played him.

I felt like when they beat us, whatever four years ago and just completely wiped the floor with us, I felt like Brunson was the difference in that series.

And I think when you compare and contrast what Brunson and Mitchell do and how they do it, and maybe it's just again, the homerism and watching your own team and you tend to look at the negative side of everything.

But I have full faith and confidence that Brunson was going to figure it out.

And I don't always have that same confidence in Donovan Mitchell.

So Brunson was just unreal in game five and he did everything that they needed him to do in the exact moment when they needed it.

He attacked anybody who they put on him, whether it was one of the guys in the backcourt, whether it was Wembanyama and man, he just, he was incredible and OG was incredible.

And those two guys combined offensively to just make it impossible for San Antonio to hold those leads.

Which seems crazy.

I think I know at least in four of the five games they had a 15 point lead at some point in the game and it may have even been all five games that they led by at least 15.

And I'd be interested.

I don't have it in front of me, but I'd be interested.

What is it?

What was.

What were NBA teams records over the course of the season when they had a 15 point lead during a game?

I'm guessing the record was the records of those teams were pretty good.

Unless you're in the Cavs.

Yeah, true, true, true.

Yeah.

So that's interesting.

So then I guess we turn this over to San Antonio and.

And I don't know if you've read anything.

I was kind of.

I was scrolling Twitter today while I was standing in line.

I saw some stuff about Dylan Harper not being happy with not knowing his role.

Did you hear anything about that, Mike?

I heard that that was kind of the case over the course of the season.

I don't know if it was specific to the finals, at least not what I read, but just talking about that over the course of the season that he felt like probably should have played more.

Which again, you and I said that.

It's hard to argue.

You and I said that multiple times in these playoff games.

Why is Dylan harbor not out there?

More so.

Yeah.

And he should have had the ball.

Like, look, I've been a huge Darren Fox fan.

Anybody who's listening to the podcast know how much I've Liked de' Aaron Fox throughout his career, he did not have a good playoffs.

Now again, I don't know how much the ankle was affecting him or not affecting him, but it certainly felt like offensively the guy that we saw in Sacramento wasn't there.

For whatever reason I still felt like he could go buy people as I said on the last pod.

But he just was hesitant to shoot and finish and then his three point shot kind of abandoned him.

He's never been a great three point shooter but he just, he was open a lot and he was hesitant and he just wasn't knocking him in.

And then conversely, Dylan Harper, every time he had the ball, I felt like he could get to the rim and get a good look almost at will.

And watching it, I almost had no idea how he was doing it.

It's like okay, he just puts the ball on the ground and he goes.

Sometimes he did that little like behind the back dribble where he would push it behind his back and then almost like a little kid then have to look for it on the other side and go get it and then go and score.

He did that know 6, 7, 8 times during the finals and he just.

There you go.

And he just, he was curious, Mike.

He was curious laverting, he was, but, but so effectively.

And what he's going to be considering what he did on this stage at 20 years old, what his potential can be for San Antonio moving forward, man, I mean obviously the one thing he's going to have to do is improve his jumper if he really is going to get to the level that he potentially could be as a all NBA guy.

But there is no question that from a mental standpoint, being ready for this moment and then just his physicality and ability to get to the rim for a guy who's 20 years old as a rookie, what we watched in that series was pretty incredible from Dylan Harper and conversely with de' Aaron Fox, there was a lot of mixed reactions right when the spurs got Fox and there were people that said, oh, he's the perfect bridge.

Now he's there.

You got a three guard rotation, Fox is the KG veteran.

Then there are other people like man, this fox contract of 220 million for four years which is going to kick in yeah next season.

Man, that's a lot of money to pay for de' Aaron Fox, who's really never been on a winning team, hasn't been in those kinds of situations.

Is he going to be the right guy?

And now you look at it, you say even if de' Aaron Fox gets back to the level that he was in Sacramento.

Is he better than Dylan Harper?

I kind of think no.

And so now, are you going to pay De' Aaron Fox to be your sixth man, $220 million, or is San Antonio going to start to look and explore maybe some trade options?

I think if I was San Antonio, what I would do is look at it and they know how injured he is or isn't.

But if he was really injured and hampered by that, then I think what you have to do is you have to look at it and say, we were kind of ahead of schedule this year and we got to the Finals.

We certainly had a chance to win the Finals, but heading into this season, there was nobody really talking about, hey, the spurs are going to be legitimate title contenders.

The discussion that you and I had and that most people were having when we were previewing the season was, hey, can the spurs get out of the play in and maybe be a top six seed if Wemby has a great year?

That's kind of where the thought process.

Where do we.

Mike, do you have your paper?

Where do we.

Do we have them as playing?

I do.

You got to talk, and I'll find it.

Okay, so, like, when I think about.

When I think about the spurs, like, we, like you mentioned, we talked about how we didn't even know if they were going to be a top six seed in.

In, like, have any chance whatsoever at.

At competing.

And then here they are on the NBA championship, so Emmy finals.

I. I have a hard time saying, like, sell on Fox at this point.

Like, I. I think the ankle definitely played a role and, and he got them through the regular season.

Got them to this point.

Like, I just don't feel like you can send that ship off.

Like, you know, I think next week we probably have to kind of talk about what we think's gonna happen with, like, the players.

I think that's probably our plan.

What do we got them at, Mike?

I can't see it.

I can't see it.

So the spurs were at 44 and a half.

Was there over, under.

You had over.

And I hit under, right?

You had under.

I had over.

But we're at 44 and a half.

They won 62 games, I believe, or 60.

They were either 60 and 22 or 62 and 20.

I can't remember.

60.

I think they're 60.

I think they're 60.

60 And 22.

So they won 60 games.

So not.

It wasn't only us who did not think that San Antonio was Legitimate NBA championship contender.

It was everyone, there was no one who thought that this was what the season was going to turn out to be like.

Now as the season went on, people started to believe that hey, maybe this team does have a legitimate chance to win a title.

But nobody thought that coming into the season.

And so if I'm San Antonio, I think what I have to do is I've really got to look hard at do I want to pay Darren Fox 220 million to be our sixth man?

Probably not.

But on the other hand, what are.

You going to get for him?

Right.

On the other hand, coming off of this finals with his contract, I'm not sure what you're going to get from Zach Lowe's been saying that if there was a trade out there that was neutral, where they didn't have to give up something in order to get off the Aaron Fox, they didn't have to attach draft picks to get a team to take him, that it was sort of the, eh, get the Aaron Fox for him, whatever.

So I'm just trying to what point got.

I mean you need a, you need essentially need a point guard that's going to have a con like a similar contract, right?

You're.

It's not going to be another position, right?

I don't know.

You can again, you're going to try to Fox that work.

I don't think, I don't think that's happening.

I don't think that is what the spurs are going to do.

So I think if it was me, I think I would keep Fox.

And again, like I said, they know how injured he was or wasn't and how much that hampered him or didn't hamper him.

So that obviously is a big piece of information.

But if I'm San Antonio, I think I want to run it back with those three guys.

Now is it palatable to put a $220 million player on the bench?

Especially if you already have Dylan Harper who is expressing concern about his role and certainly if you come that's coming.

From Dylan Harper or is that coming from Ron Harper?

I don't know.

I don't know where it's coming from.

Maybe, maybe the backcourt ends up being Harper and Dear and Fox and Steph Castle ends up being your third guard.

Maybe you end up playing those three guys.

I think Steph Castle is too, too, too important on the defensive end of the court to get rid of him to be a starter.

Right.

I don't think you're getting rid of him.

The question is, I think like he played.

He needs to be a starter, he needs to be guarded.

Those guys all need to play.

I mean, I think Harper and Dylan Harper probably need to.

Harper and Castle need to be playing.

Yeah, Harper and Castle need to be playing starters minutes, but if they're playing starters minutes, they're still probably 25 minutes for De' Aaron Fox.

And if you feel like you could play those three guys together, especially in the regular season, for minutes, you could probably get them all to 30 plus minutes.

If you're willing to play a three guard lineup, if that's tenable.

And with anybody with any type of team.

Right.

With Wemby in the back of that, certainly being able to play small is something that San Antonio more than other teams maybe could get away with.

I think San Antonio's problem is by the time the finals were over, they were really down to six guys that they could play.

Keldon Johnson was the sixth man of the year and he was borderline unplayable.

I think he probably averaged like 10 or 11 minutes a game in this series and did next to nothing.

And Cornet was a good signing and played well in the regular season, but his minutes against the Knicks in the finals were just.

The Knicks, the, the spurs were bleeding points while Cornett was on the floor and.

Well, you, I mean, I texted you and was that game five the last game?

We're four and a half minutes left in the game and Wemby's not on the floor.

Are you kidding me?

Well, that's.

But that's another.

That, that's the next, that's the next segment that we got to talk about is just whether that's Mitch Johnson or whether that's Wemby's conditioning or what, what that is or was.

Is a big problem or was a big problem for the spurs this year and could continue to be moving forward.

I think the other guy.

One last thing before you jump in.

The other thing is when you think about Carter Bryant, right, He's got to be the guy that they develop, that becomes another key piece in their team.

And if you can develop him, who I think he was, again, just like Dylan Harper, 19 or 20 years old, rookie, you could see flashes.

He wasn't quite ready.

Mitch Johnson didn't quite trust him.

But I would think that as this team progresses that he's going to become a big part of it.

So if you throw him in there, maybe now you have seven guys and you probably still need, you probably need a good stretch four next to Wemby, a guy or a Guy that can be physical, somebody that can do some things to kind of take the pressure off of Wembanyama.

Maybe it's Carter Bryant, maybe it's somebody else.

I don't know who it's going to be.

But the spurs, look, nobody expected them to be here.

The fact that they were winning in every game in the finals and had a chance to win makes it even more disappointing.

Especially when you look at, if you go back and look at some of the individual plays that if they had just gone differently, simple plays, right?

Wemby doesn't throw the ball off Castle's back.

Wemby makes two free throws out.

Yeah, the OG tipping that the ball has to be in the exact right spot.

And he happens to be.

It's just there's a million different little plays that you can look at that say, man, if those plays would have spun the other way, the spurs could have won the title.

And so I think obviously their most interesting off season question is, what do you do with the Aaron Fox?

My own personal take is they're going to bring him back.

I think you run this team back basically as is, with maybe the exception of trying to make some fringe moves to try to bolster your depth with guys who can play in a playoff game.

But look, it's really, really hard to find guys who can play real minutes in an NBA Finals game.

You see, as each round of the playoffs goes along, less and less guys see minutes.

And the guys who do get out there, it's tough.

It's tough.

And they got to be ready to play.

And even though you might have been an important cog on your team during the regular season.

Sorry, Luke Cornett.

Sorry.

Kelvin Johnson, 6 Man of the year.

You just can't be out there because of the matchups or because of your lack of shooting or lack of defense or lack of like, something, something.

And that's what made the Knicks so special, is that they found role guys or starters that just played to the absolute peak of their potential and gave them what they gave them what they could.

So make your point.

I'm sorry, I didn't.

You went on a tangent.

I'm used to it at this point.

Listen, the bottom line is this.

I. I blame Mitch Johnson in this situation.

It's game five of the NBA Finals.

You know what Wemby conditioning is, was.

Is like what he's going to be able to do.

How do you sit there and play him for six straight minutes to start the fourth quarter and then sit him in the four with four and a half minutes left.

It's unconscionable.

Unconscionable for you to be.

Put the team in this position.

Not to mention the fact that Luke Cornett was dealing with some kind of flu bug and you knew he was going to be slow and not be in the best position to play, and you still put him in the position to play.

And with four and a half minutes left in the game, like, I, I understand that maybe you were in an uncomfortable situation and maybe Wemby could have sucked it up and just kept going.

And maybe it wasn't Wemby's decision to come out of the game, but Mitch Johnson was like, he's looking slow.

I'm going to get him out of there.

I don't exactly know because I don't know if that question was even asked.

But I texted, like I said, I texted you with four and a half minutes left, how is Wemby not in the game?

What kind of.

I said, I said some foul language is going on here.

Like, this is crazy.

I just didn't understand it.

And sure, Wemby could be in better condition, but listen, the bottom line Also, is Wemby 7 foot 4, he's a tall guy who plays hard.

All.

I mean, I don't know that I can ever say that.

I could say, say that Wemby's not playing hard when he's on the floor.

Yes, he makes some mistakes, like boxing out.

Yes, maybe he does some, but it's never that.

Like he's just standing there, not doing something.

He's constantly moving on the defensive end of the floor.

He's on the floor after loose balls, and he's a 7 foot 4 man flying to the ground.

I know I'm 6 foot 4 and I'm not in peak physical condition, but when I fall to the ground, if I'm playing basketball or anything, I'm very pokey getting up.

I'm an old man at this point.

But he's 7 foot 4.

That's a lot of man standing up.

Okay.

Like, I don't know how much more conditioning he, how much better condition he's going to get into in his career.

Like, we often talk about Luca, we often talk about other guys in the NBA getting into better shape, but he's, for lack of a better word, alien when it comes to this thing.

He's 7 foot 4.

Like, his body is going to react to things very differently than people, other people around the league.

And I just don't understand how at this point, Game 7 or Game 5 of the NBA Finals.

You don't know what position you're putting your team in as a coach if you don't get him off the floor to start.

Like, would it been perfect for him to start on the bench in the fourth quarter?

Probably not.

But at the same time, would I rather have him on the floor to start the fourth quarter during crunch time?

I.

On the floor, I just, that's my opinion.

I, I just don't know how you.

Can do that and put yourself in that position.

And maybe, maybe Wemby did say, I.

Need to come out for, and get a break for a minute.

I don't know.

We don't know the answer to that question because I don't know that it's been asked.

But I, I think it falls on him.

I think it falls on Mitch Johnson and the coaching staff for sure.

So here's what I'll say.

I think it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation from this standpoint.

The rare Mike swear, the white rare,.

Rare Mike swear on the podcast.

Well, I think that especially by the time you get to game five, right, Mitch Johnson has seen the script play out four times where we've got a nice lead, the lead gets chipped away, then all of a sudden we're down and we're in crunch time.

And maybe Mitch Johnson's thought starting him in the fourth quarter is if we can just take control of the game now, then maybe we don't get to crunch time.

And I think that was his thought process, especially earlier in the series where he took him out maybe in the third quarter.

I think specifically of a 29 point game where he had Wemby out and this Knicks went on a 12, two run or 14 to two run, and everybody's like, why is he out?

Well, he's out because we have a 29 point lead.

But then Mitch Johnson has to go back after that and watch the film and be like, well, if Wemby was in, maybe we don't give up that 14 to two run and now maybe we don't lose the 29 point lead.

And now maybe Wemby can sit the last four minutes of the game because we've already wrapped it up.

And so it's curious that Wemby's out with four and a half minutes to go in a deciding game of the NBA Finals.

I don't know where to necessarily place the quote blame, whether it's with Mitch Johnson, whether it's with Wemby, whatever it is.

I think you can make a rational reason why he was in at the beginning?

I think it's hard to make a rational reason why he was out with four and a half minutes to go, regardless of how tired he was.

And yet at the same point, I think if you look at Wembanyama's splits in the first half of games in this series versus the second half of games in this series, you would see that he is much more effective as both an offensive player and as a defensive player, at least as measured by blocks and steals in the first half than he was in the second half.

Which again, speaks to the fact that he's getting worn down.

Whether that's conditioning, whether that's him just getting beaten up physically and then just isn't as explosive as he is at the beginning of games, whatever it is, there's no question that he wore down over the course of games and wasn't as effective in fourth quarters as he was earlier in the game.

And so I think that moving forward, you have to look at it and here's how you mentioned a guy like, hey, we want Luka to be in shape.

Or I forget who was the other guy you mentioned.

I can't remember now, but I mean,.

Yokich at time, I think nobody's really.

Jokic looks like he's out of condition, but I've never seen Jokic necessarily falter in the fourth quarter because it feels like he's out of shape.

I always think back to that double overtime game against Portland four or five years ago where he scored whatever close to 60 in that game and played almost the entire 60 minutes of play and just was.

He was just as good in the last second as he was and the first second.

And so I think what I look at with Wembanyama, how maybe he's wired differently than, let's say, Luca, right?

It seems like from the outside and from what Wemby says, that he's determined to be the best basketball player ever.

Now, you can say that, Wow, I don't know if he's ever going to get there or, wow, that's not a lot of humbleness there.

Right?

But if that's truly his mentality, I don't know if Luka's wired the same way.

I don't know if Luca's gonna say, hey, I'm gonna give up my beer and kombucha or whatever it is that he's doing, and he's gonna get the best shape, whatever.

Whereas it feels like Wemby, at least again, what he talks about publicly that it feels like he would do whatever he can to be in the best condition that he possibly could be.

Here's the other thing that I would say with that is I think back to like Mike Budenholzer coaching the Bucks and us saying and having this conversation, how does Giannis not play 40 minutes or 44 minutes in these playoff games?

How's Giannis playing?

36 Minutes and the Bucks are going 12 minutes without him on the floor.

And every time he's off the floor, they're falling apart.

I think for Wembanyama and for any great player, if you're going to be the best player on your team, you have to be able to play in a playoff game the entire second half of an NBA Finals game.

Take your normal rest in the first half, four minutes.

But you may have to play the entire game in an NBA Finals game.

And Brunson did that in game five, and I think he did it in multiple games.

And look, are you going to be tired?

Sure.

Are you maybe going to be slightly less effective?

Sure.

But you got to figure that out.

And now again, we're talking about Victor Weminyama, who's 22 years old at this point and certainly ahead of schedule with his team and his own performance.

And so he's got a lot of time to be able to figure this piece of it out.

And it'll be interesting to see if he can figure out the conditioning piece.

The second piece that he has to figure out is what is my go to shot that I can get against anybody at any time, when they're taking away everything else from me, when I'm getting double teamed, when they're forcing me off this spot or that spot and I have to catch the ball somewhere else on the floor, that may be where I want to.

What shot can I get every single time?

And with his size, he should have some good options of things that he can do.

Can he get to the nail like Dirk Nowitzki and just master that post up at the nail, 17 footer where nobody can contest the shot?

Can he become the first guy since Kareem?

I keep coming back to Kareem and think about the sky hook.

And if Wemby had a sky hook, what could anyone do with that?

Nobody could.

That shot would be unguardable if he could figure it out.

Now, obviously it's a lot harder to figure out because nobody's done it before or since Kareem.

So clearly there's something very, very unique about Kareem's physiology.

That allowed him to be able to master that shot.

But, man, Wemby needs something.

He needs some go to move, some go to shot, some spot on the floor where he can get to whenever he wants, get that shot.

And either he's going to make it or he's going to miss it and the defense becomes irrelevant.

And you saw it in fourth quarters, he did not have that.

He did not have anything that he could just go to and get a clean look.

He was oftentimes struggling trying to put the ball on the floor or trying to post up and use his ability to, again, physicality or lack thereof, to be able to establish position on the block.

He's got to figure out what that go to move is, and if he can get that and he can get his conditioning down to the point where he can play those extra minutes.

Now you start talking about a guy that man, potentially could be the greatest player in the history of the game.

I think the other thing that's interesting for me, and I was kind of thinking about this, and obviously one of the most common conversations that you see on social media amongst basketball fans debated all the time, who's the greatest of all time?

Right now there's talk of who's the greatest Nick of all time, right.

Where does Jalen Brunson rank in the list of greatest?

Knicks.

But when we start talking about who's the greatest of all time, and everybody who listens knows where you and I stand on this argument in terms of Jordan's superiority to anyone else, and you look at Wembanyama and he gets to this finals, and I would say that he had a good finals.

I would say not a great finals.

And you look at how does this.

It seems crazy to say, right?

At age 22, losing a final.

Do you think back to LeBron's first trip to the finals, he loses to San Antonio, again with an inferior team.

I don't think San Antonio necessarily had an inferior team to the Knicks.

Or you think about when he gets back with Miami, right?

And then LeBron doesn't play well in that first series against Dallas in the finals.

And so he's got these two kind of, I don't know if black marks.

Stains on his record.

What's that?

Stains.

Stains, yeah, stains, Right.

And so now when you look at Wemby and you start thinking about, hey, this is a guy who we think potentially could be in that discussion someday of being the greatest player of all time.

And he's got this series where his team blew multiple 15, 20 point leads and lost 4 1.

Now, granted, the Knicks playoff run looks historic, but as we said, heading into the playoffs, nobody saw this coming from the New York Knicks.

Nobody.

And they captured lightning in a bottle and they won it.

The question is, does this become.

And I don't think it is at this point, but at some point, ten years from now, if.

When Banyama's won three titles or four titles, hey, remember that first one that he went to where he maybe underperformed?

What does that look like?

It's just.

It's just something that I started thinking about.

And it's crazy to think about somebody who's 22 and thinking about their legacy 10 or 12 years down the road as potentially the greatest player of all time.

But it crossed my mind when you start stacking guys up and you look at Jordan 6, 0 in the finals, and look, the argument against Jordan is, well, he never got there early in his career.

He got beat by Detroit before he even got to the Finals.

And so why is that less of a stain on him than if he had broke through and then lost in the finals?

Would that have been worse?

And whatever.

But the fact of the matter is, is that's how people define it.

And I just think it's something that popped into my head, and I'm not sure if it's fair or not, but it's something that I thought about.

It's a fair point.

With the Thunder, right?

With.

With Durant's first trip to the Finals, right?

And they.

They lose.

Yeah.

2013, Right?

Yeah.

2013.

2014.

Yeah.

2013.

So, like, his first trip to the Finals, and, like, he was clearly the best player on that team.

Okay.

And then they're out.

You know, and he's never been to the Finals since then, right?

So.

So, like, Durant was.

Durant was in this conversation, too, Mike.

Like.

And, you know, yes, he has two NBA championships, but we look at Durant very differently now than we did at that point, because he went to Golden State and joined the super team.

You know, when we can argue, LeBron went to Miami and joined a super team, too.

But.

But when LeBron went to Miami, he went to a team that had never gotten there and hadn't one slash, lost two finals before.

Before, you know, Wade obviously had.

Okay.

So, like, I think what we look at now is there's going to be a lot of things that dictate what we think about Wemby and his and where he falls in his NBA career and his rot the roster and what happens over the next 10 years.

And like, I think the biggest question mark for him isn't necessarily can he do this again is can he stay healthy?

That's the big that.

That's my biggest concern.

I mean, every time he falls to the floor, I think he's going to get injured.

Okay.

Every time he dives after a ball, I think he's going to break a wrist or something because he's so.

He's 7 4, he's gangly.

Like, like, just what is he going to do?

Like, can he stay healthy is the first thing.

Okay.

And can he continue to be successful in the West?

Because the west, we know, although the east isn't going to be much of a treat.

Okay.

Depending on what happens with the player movement that we're going to talk about in the next week or the week after.

Like, I don't know, like, the east is clearly the better option to be in.

But can Wemby continue to have sustained success in the west with we got Oklahoma City, you got Minnesota, you got Denver, you got theoretically the Lakers, you've got like all these teams, like can San Antonio or are we going to just continue to have a different Western Conference team every year?

Like, because really, when you think about it, Right, So this year, San Antonio last year, Oklahoma City, the year before that, Denver, the year before with Denver as well.

Right.

So they had two years in a row, won one, lost one.

Is that right?

No, because they didn't make the final.

They only made the finals the one year.

So who was, who was in the finals the year before that?

Dallas.

Dallas with Luca and then go.

And then Golden State and then Golden.

State and then the Lakers the year before that.

Right.

So we've had a.

Like and five or six years in a row, we've had a different team in the NBA Finals in the Western Conference.

And I know that, you know, we can talk about parody in the NBA and parody in the teams and player movement, how that affects everything.

But, you know, before this year, the east has been more consistent and it's been Boston, Milwaukee, Miami.

Somehow I still don't understand how Jimmy Butler got the team at the NBA Finals.

I'm still.

Still puzzled on that one, Mike.

I don't quite get that.

I don't.

I don't know if I'm more puzzled on the fact that Jimmy Butler got his team to the NBA Finals or that the Knicks just won the NBA championship.

I don't know which is more puzzling, but I just think when you look at.

I. I just don't know how you sustain success in the west or really anywhere in the NBA with the current climate and player movement and stuff.

Because, you know, we'll.

We'll talk.

Like I said, we'll talk about it next week or the week after.

Like, player movement.

Like, what's going to happen?

Extensions.

How are teams going to handle these extensions, especially with the.

The apron rules and all this and, and the new draft lottery rules?

How is that going to play effect in this?

I. I don't know.

I don't know where things are going to go, but I'm interested to follow.

And Wemby's legacy is definitely interesting.

Do I think there's a chance that he's going to be the greatest of all time?

I think there's no chance in heck that he's going to be the greatest player of all time.

I think, at best, he's going to be third.

I think it's going to take a lot for someone to pass Jordan and nice.

And pass LeBron.

I mean, LeBron's going to play a 24th season next year.

Okay.

And the amount of minutes he's played and the amount of points he score and, like, not only climbing the mountain, that mountain that is passing Jordan, climbing the mountain that is passing LeBron is going to be virtually impossible.

I just don't.

And I know probably 15, 20 years ago people would have said there's no way we were going to talk about how LeBron could catch Jordan, and we still don't.

You.

And I still don't believe he's caught Jordan.

But, I mean, he's.

He's a good.

He's a pretty good one B to the one A that is Michael Jordan.

And I. I just don't think.

I don't think Wemby's 1C.

I'll just leave it there.

I just.

I just don't think.

I don't want to.

I don't want to be a prisoner of the moment, I guess, is what I'm saying.

Like.

Yeah, no, it's fair.

And I think you make a great point that his health is the number one thing.

If you look at what he potentially can do in his career.

And what made Jordan and LeBron so special over the course of their careers, besides obviously the talent and the accomplishments, is the fact that they both played right.

Jordan had the broken foot in his second year, and other than that, he played pretty much every game.

And LeBron really has never had a major injury.

Obviously, as his career has wound on, he's played less games per season.

But it's also a different time in the league where guys across the league are not playing as many games.

So clearly, if Wemby's health falters, it takes him out of that potential equation.

And if he's able to stay healthy, who knows?

I think the one advantage that he has is clearly, no matter what he does offensively in terms of his development, even if he were to stagnate right where he is and never improve at all on offense, what he brings on the defensive end of the floor gives him something that look as good as Jordan was defensively.

And I think he has nine first team, all defensive teams.

And LeBron obviously at his apex, was one of the best defenders in the league.

In terms of impact night in and night out, I'm pretty sure that neither one of those guys is going to be as impactful as a defender as women.

Yama is going to be at his peak if he's healthy, when he's age 26, 27 years old, a healthy women, Yama, defensively, what he's going to be able to do, I think is going to make him totally unique.

But at the same time, I think that, as you said, looking at that, at Mamanyama when he's 22 years old and trying to factor that in, I think is crazy.

And that's why again, in my own thought process, as I was thinking those thoughts about, hey, this could impact ultimately where he, where he ends up in the, in the greatest of all time discussion, in my own mind, I was like, I can't even believe that I'm really thinking about this at this point.

But it gives you an idea kind of of what this guy's accomplished to this point and what his potential is, again, because of what he can do on both ends of the floor makes him completely, completely unique.

And I think as the series went on, the Knicks figured out a little bit of how to deal with them.

But part of it was again, the Knicks just found something.

And whatever that something was, they found the secret to winning basketball for them.

And it's not hard to understand what it is that winning basketball looks like, what it is hard is to get five guys or eight guys or 10 guys or 12 guys to believe it and to actually do it and to sacrifice and to be willing to just become subservient to the team as opposed to being concerned with what you're doing as an individual and as great as any team probably has ever been.

The Knicks did that.

I think the last team probably right is the.

Chauncey Billups was kind of the main offensive driver.

And of course you had Ben Wallace on the defensive end of the floor.

Rip Hamilton, baby.

Come on.

Right, But Hamilton was Chauncey point shaving then.

I don't know if he was.

I don't know if he was or not, but I. I think that Billups is probably the closest thing to what you had in Brunson and that that's probably the closest comparison.

And I don't even know how accurate that is.

But the fact of the matter is, is that the Knicks just were unbelievable as a team and unbelievable at times individually over the course of this playoff run where guys played, I don't even want to say above their head, but they just played to the ultimate potential of what Mikhail Bridges could be.

He was that against the Cavs, the ultimate.

Look at.

Look at the Landry Sham.

We didn't even mention Landry Shamit.

Right.

He played ridiculous minutes at times like.

Yeah, and he was incredible against the Cavs.

And he was up and down in the playoff, in the.

In the finals.

He had some good moments.

But the fact that, look, I think you could go back through multiple playoff runs in the past for the teams that Landry Shaman has played for and say that he was unplayable in many situations during pl past playoff runs where you couldn't even have him on the floor.

And he became a very, very important part of what the Knicks did over the course of this playoff series or this playoff run.

I just.

It was incredible to watch them continuously.

I just kept watching, waiting for it to kind of fall apart both collectively and individually.

And it never did.

Collectively.

Individually, guys had maybe some down games, but man, collectively they figured out a way to pick everybody else up.

I mean, I think if you went into this finals and said that Carl Anthony Towns is going to be in huge foul trouble in games four and five, he's going to score 13 points in game four, he's going to score two games, 2.2 points in game five, and the Knicks are still going to win those games, I think people would have said you were crazy.

Look, I've been a big Cat detractor over the course of his career, and in many ways, in these last couple games, he kind of reverted to Carl Anthony Towns.

Now, he did get some tough whistles on plays that were reviewed, that originally were files on Wembanyama, and somehow they ended up being fouls on Towns after they got reviewed.

And he definitely cut down on some of the lurching offensive fouls and just completely stupid defensive fouls where he's going and poking at the ball when he has no chance to get it.

But Cat was not great in this series, and yet he was really good against the Atlanta Hawks, he was really good against the Cavs, and he was good enough.

And I would say in the Finals, he made just enough, not stupid plays to be able to take advantage of the things that he did well.

And I don't think Cat was the driving force behind this, but I would have predicted that he might have been the driving force behind why they would have lost.

And that was not the case.

And so praise to Cat.

Kudos to him for coming through and playing in a way that I don't think I thought he was capable of playing, being under control and doing things the right way and contributing to a team with seemingly no concern for, again, his own statistics.

And you can.

It's hard to do.

It's hard to find that.

And maybe that credit goes to Mike Brown.

Maybe it goes to their team.

Maybe it goes to them circling the wagons after they lost game three to the Hawks and CJ McCollum and just figured it out somehow, some way.

And, man, what a incredible, magical run that they went on.

And who knows, maybe they don't regress to the mean until sometime next year, because they certainly didn't do it in the finals.

Yep, I agree.

All right.

Anything else, Mike?

No.

I think we hit on all the major storylines from both teams, and like you said, next week we'll come back and there's a draft.

When's the draft?

I think it's next.

Is it Tuesday or Thursday?

I know it always used to be on a Thursday, but I feel like it's.

I feel like it might be earlier than that.

Well, if it's Tuesday, maybe we need to do a Monday.

Yeah, we'll do it.

We'll try to.

Yeah, let's.

We'll try to get one in before the draft so we can talk a little bit about what's going to happen at the top of the draft.

Which should be, I think, super interesting, whether or not it's going to go in the expected order or whether or not there's going to be anybody trading.

I think at number five with the Clippers, things get really interesting.

What the Clippers are going to be going.

We're entering silly season.

Mike.

Yeah.

There was a report, my dad was telling me he was giving inside information earlier today that he said, heard red, that if Giannis is going to get traded, it's going to happen before the draft.

Did you see this?

Yeah, that's what I've heard.

It sounds like that's what's going to happen.

It sounds like it's inevitable and I don't know.

I don't know where he's going to go.

I mean, obviously the two places that have been most rumored are Miami and Boston, and I don't know, I don't know if you end up going a two team trade, what they're going to get back and does Milwaukee want Jaylen Brown and build around him?

What's that do for them?

Do they want to do a real rebuild?

I don't think the Miami package, personally, if I was Milwaukee, I would never trade them to Miami for Tyler Hero and whatever else of the poo poo platter that they're going to get from Miami.

So I. I don't know.

It'll be interesting.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see.

Well, maybe next week.

What?

Maybe at some point we'll have to do an emergency pod.

Giannis traded?

I don't know.

Could very well be.

Could very well be.

All right, so we'll come back with the draft and some free agency and trade talk and probably do that next weekend.

Yeah.

Who knows?

Who knows?

All right, anyway, let's leave it there.

Congratulations to the New York Knicks on finding the Magic.

Mike.

Mike.

Mike.

I stand corrected.

The Wilt Chamberlain arena is still standing.

It's Hershey Park Arena.

It's still there.

It's still there.

It has been renovated since it was done.

There's.

It's been expanded, but it is still technically in existence.

Okay, well, make a pilgrimage, man.

Make a pilgrimage.

Well, I mean, I drove past it multiple times not knowing that's where it happened, so.

Carry your sign.

Get your sign, man.

Get your sign up.

You could hold up.

You could hold up the number of podcasts we've done.

You could hold.

You could hold that.

15.

What, what are we, 1,000?

I don't know, 200 and.

I don't know, 60 something, I think, somewhere in there.

So that's how many you've done.

I have not done that many.

I guess as Bruce would say, I've been slacking lately.

So there you go.

All right.

Well, anyway, enjoy the rest of your trip and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

Your first impression is everything when applying for a new coaching job.

A professional coaching portfolio is the tool that highlights your coaching achievements, philosophies and most of all, helps separate you and your abilities from the other applicants.

The Coaching Portfolio Guide is an instructional membership based website that helps you develop a personalized portfolio.

Each section of the Portfolio Guide provides detailed instructions on how to organize your portfolio in a professional manner.

The guide also provides sample documents for each section of your portfolio that you can copy, modify and add to your personal portfolio.

As a Hoop Heads POD listener, you can get your Coaching Portfolio Guide for just $25.

Visit coachingportfolioguide.com hoopheads to learn more.

Thanks for listening to the Hoop Heads Podcast presented by Head Start Basketball Sat.