This week’s episode is essential listening for small business owners looking for ways to raise capital without having to grovel to HSBC.

We chat to Ciaran Burke, COO & Co-Founder of Swoop, a financing platform which helps small businesses secure finance.

We talk about the range of alternative financing options available to SMEs in the UK outside of traditional bank lending including the Enterprise Investment Scheme (EIS), Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme (SEIS) and the government-backed Startup Loan scheme. Ciaran also explains how Swoop's credit eligibility and financing model works, and advises on the fine art of writing grant pitches.

To date, Swoop has helped over 100,000 SMEs obtain over £1bn in financing across its businesses in the UK, Ireland, Canada, US and Australia.

BWB is powered by Oury Clark.

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Fucking Thursday evening.

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I love it.

Hi, and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

I'm Andy Orie and alongside me as my co-host Pip Stir.

Hi Andy.

Hi, PIP.

Today we are joined by Quan Burke.

How you doing Kiran?

Very good, Andy.

Hey Pip, thanks for having me.

Hi.

Welcome to the podcast.

Anyway, so, uh, we always like to ask.

Fess, Karen, what is keeping you up at night at the moment?

Uh, so fucking dull.

But our product journey at the moment, uh oh, Jesus.

Even the titles not exactly, it's not happening.

I mean, it's got the word journey in it, which darling likes.

Darling, can I talk to you about my product cycle?

Just no, shut the fuck up and signing up a bit.

I, well, maybe I shouldn't have answered honestly.

No, no, it's good.

Let's talk about it.

Normally I got an easy answer cause I support villa.

Normally they're terrible, but actually they're doing really well at the moment.

So look, make, make, making things.

Is fucking difficult.

Yeah.

Basically.

And making things physically is difficult and making good software is difficult.

So what's going on?

Yeah.

Like it's a, it's a bittersweet thing.

Uh, this is probably so dumb.

No, no, no.

Uh, but our, our, like our marketing team, we're smashing outta the park.

They're doing an awesome job.

We're got these, all this great SEO traffic, uh, and we made some kind of changes in terms of the user and where someone signs up and it's not gone so well.

Um, so we're need to kind of.

Redo.

Oh, oh, you made like a detailed change and it's fucked, fucked up.

Yeah.

You kinda like flow self, self-generated pain and was highly unnecessary.

Unintended consequences.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, uh, we're, we're, we're fixing it at the moment and I'm sure it will be grand.

Uh, but genuinely that was kind of annoying me the last couple of nights, I suppose.

Yeah, we've, we, we've had clients who've used your services.

I'm sure you'd explain it better, but, you know, swoop is a company that is a, a aggregator for the debt industry or a, you know, a broker.

Yeah.

Is it, is that fair?

Yeah.

So it's, it's kind of like the, the missing metal you say.

So, uh, if you're a really, really young set company, you tend to have loads of like nice startup things, all the government packages and things like that.

And then if you're really, really successful, like turning over maybe 10 million, all the kind of.

Big banks, everyone wants you and there's loads available, but that kind of, I'm turning over between a hundred grand and maybe 10 million.

Big banks don't really have a big, uh, footprint anymore.

There's no kind of one-to-one personal relationship, so you might not necessarily have a financial background.

So you don't know where to where to go, and.

There's actually loads of funding options out there, not just debt.

You could look at equity, look at granted.

So yeah, so it's sort of the bit between kind of load pree and Series A.

Yeah.

Or, or you could just be like, I, I've got a pizza shop and I won't open a second pizza shop, and hey, just don't give a shit if you're open up a second pizza shop.

But like, you won't need 50 K unless you've got a pizza oven that's worth too many bucks.

Isn't that mad that we've got to a stage that the banks wouldn't, uh, wouldn't, you know, a nice tidy business turning over, wouldn't happily lend 50 grand or whatever they need to, to, to there, what you just said, they wouldn't do that now.

Yeah.

Well, it's just because they, eh, it's too complicated.

Not so much that, but with it's covid you had.

Uh, banks, back loans, and sea belts.

So literally they fill their roots.

So they, I'd say, landed out probably about five or six years worth of small business money.

And particularly with bounce back loans.

Is that where the banks are really, really, because they have limits to how much small, only small business loans they can make.

They was.

Because they, they, they put about 60 billion out in just the banks back loan because there wasn't any checks on it.

Like you or I could go in, if you own the small business, unbelievable.

Uh, gimme that 20 oh ever, gimme that 50, and then it's in the bank end, then the next day.

So they have a huge job on going like, am I ever gonna get any of this back?

No, A lot of time.

No, no.

So yeah, they're working with that through that.

But then even the cbell side of software, they put another.

Tens of billions out there, so they have to kind of monitor and track that.

So the appetite actually to put a lot of fresh capital isn't quite there.

So, but there's loads of other stuff outside of the, the banks there to get it.

Like the alternative finance in the UK market is huge and there's, there's loads, loads of different options there and great options.

But going to your question, if I have a pizza shop, is H S P C gonna be my best bet to get me my loan?

Probably not.

Well, HSBC's gonna look at that and go, if I lend you the money, And it doesn't go well, how am I gonna get that money back And you've got a pizza oven that's worth like five grand or something.

And that is freaking it.

Like there isn't anything that they can put their hands on and take.

Yeah.

There used to be just, um, I, it, uh, it was I guess somewhat in the fact that people were more honorable, but there were people were much more honorable and had the concept of credit was a thing and you lose your credit.

It's a bad thing.

So the way you catch your credit is you kept your word and that was all it meant.

So you could lend that at lev level.

Yeah, well you could, you kind of still have that at, at that respect because like, okay, taking your example there.

Okay, yeah, I can value an asset and that might be five grand, but, uh, credit scores are important, um, particularly for people like hsbc.

So you can lobby your credit score in there, but a personal and a business level and they can see, hey, you've got a mortgage, you're paying that back, you've got a, a mobile phone bill, so on so forth.

I do also see a lot of personal guarantees.

Yes.

In that early stage lending Yes.

Piece.

Yes.

Which is scary, man.

It is.

It is.

It is.

But at the same time, like you're setting up a business, it's a risky thing.

Uh, so you're gonna have to, it can't all be like clouds and candy floors.

What are you talking about?

It's all candy and flowers.

Yes.

You can't have it always, but at the same time, you've had this huge wave of other unsecured, uh, financing where you can deal without pgs and like you touched on asset finance.

Yeah, you, you can do things around physical assets and reduce the risk.

Um, but yeah, if you, so many people recently, it's weird, I had coffee with somebody yesterday who said, yeah, you know, towards the end of, of lockdown we just, we, you know, we got a bounce battle.

Yeah.

It's like everybody did it.

It's just there.

Well, you set up a limited company, you'll get a bank account of when you could do with your mobile phone, and then you press a few mobile bonds to get 50 grand.

I mean, I, I, it was wild.

It was rife.

I'd actually like to understand your business a bit more, but let's get back there.

But one, this bounceback loan thing, you know, do you think it was bad?

Like the reason, let's remember why we did it.

So they launched.

Sea bills, which is 250 grand, and it was 80% backed by the guarantee, but it was still the fucking bank.

So the bank were like, well, what do you want it for?

Can we have four day cash for?

And people were fucking dying out there like it was chaos, you know?

It was, you know that before anyone introduced any, you know that.

And then they did, and then they said, this is crazy.

Obviously did a calculation, said it's gonna be loads of fraud, but just give 'em all 50 grand because that's what they're doing.

They're just handing out money in other countries.

Yeah.

And I, I think that helped a lot of businesses that I, good, good.

Because they put it in their bank and they've kept it in their bank, but it's helped.

You know, there's a one I really love is The Future Fund because that is gonna create chaos for the, for years to come.

It's brilliant because, and they're gonna make money.

I reckon they'll make money.

No, but the problem is, the rule is right, you could borrow, if got an investment, you could borrow a matching amount of money, but within three years you had to do an, you have to do another investment raise for the same or more.

And if you don't, that loan is then at the end of three years repayable, but with a hundred percent penalty.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So everybody's like, suddenly it's coming to the end of three years since they took it out.

They're all desperately trying to raise the money because otherwise they're gonna have to pay double back.

I mean, it's gonna be, yeah, it, I mean bad.

Yeah, but also entertaining because it's mad how quickly those three years go.

And I remember talking to people and a few people, I said, you do realize this is the deal.

And I had one client who went, oh fuck that.

I'm not doing that.

So banks are struggling.

What's your plan?

Uh, I don't, well, I wouldn't say struggling in terms of, I would just say to, to do that the, the major banks at the moment, because of banks, back loans and cbis have put a lot of capital into SMEs.

So therefore, they're probably, their big strategic focus isn't gonna be, how do we put more capital into these SMEs?

Let's focus on getting some of this cash back.

Uh, however, outside of that, you've got a really healthy mix.

Of loads of different alternative lenders willing to do different products and product specialisms, whether it's asset finance, revenue base, merchant, cash events, invoice finance, there's, there's a lot out there, but obviously this can be double tou or double dutched to someone.

So it's about educating small business owners to understand.

Their credit eligibility and what products might be a good fit for them because it can let them grow or it can, it can make them feel more at ease.

Uh, cuz a lot of the time things can get tied.

It's quite rollercoaster.

You seem to be able to move quite quickly too, most of the time that you, you know, that always surprises me because people want to get debt.

They want, they want it soon.

And most.

Time, it's a process and 72 forms, and three months later they'll tell them no.

But you seem to suggest every time I send you a client say, oh, ring me.

We might be able to sort it out by Friday.

And I'm like, what the fuck's going on down there?

Yeah.

No, no.

I, I, I think that's where the innovation piece is coming.

That's where everyone's, where the, the banks are kind of losing because.

Because of technology, you are able to make those credit decisions so much more quickly and move the cash a lot more quickly.

Like open banking is massive, both from a fraud protection point of view, but actually delayed me to do my credit model.

Open banking being the open APAs, I, I am willing to share my banking data with you.

I give you permission.

It's done over two factor authentication, so it's a little bit more secure than traditional screen scraping when you connect your bank account.

So what a lender can do is suck all that data in.

Quickly analyze it against your credit model and say yay or nay.

But what it's also doing is the veracity of who that person is and what their account says.

So you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're ruining that kind of shadiness is like, is this PDF real?

Yeah.

Cause you're seeing the truth mo mostly you could, it'd be quite an exercise, but you could fabricate that data if you wanted to.

Not if you do the open banking because there's no fabric.

It's, it's a live feed into your bank account.

Yes.

It's almost un it is unfathomable.

Well, hence it's the basis of double entry bookkeeping, you know?

Yes, yes.

So with that ability to see right in there.

Yeah.

And to, to quickly ascertain if there's affordability there, then I can make that decision.

But had you ever let, you never lend to startups then You've seen that back account?

No.

Well, we, you well, this, this, this country.

It's coming.

It's gone.

No, it's coming.

Is gone.

This, this country's blessed with two unbelievable schemes.

If you're a startup, like it's just so good.

Uh, the government back startup loan scheme is, Absolutely unbelievable.

You as a startup within your first three years of making commercial sale, you could have set the company up 10 years ago, but you made your first sale last week.

You got three years taken.

You or any of your directors in the business can get up to 25 grand at a flat rate of 6%, and the first six months is interest free and you can spare that over to five years.

Never heard of this.

Unbelievable.

Like, how good is that from a cash flow perspective?

So personal guarantee, 25 grand.

Any director, you have to have a business less than 10 years old that has made a sale within three years.

Eh, the business can be registered whenever, it's whenever you make sale.

When you made your first commercial sale, that's like your three year clock.

Checking.

You gotta do it three years, 25 grand per director.

So there's 10 directors I can get.

Yeah.

Fire away, which are 250.

But you also don't need to go for the, the max eight and the 25.

It, it starts at 500 page.

If you go to this for who's selling this, you can go to Swoop or you can go, uh, it's a government from back scheme in, in business financ, any financing, it's intimidating as you're saying.

Whether it's personal guarantees or large sum some money.

So there's going to be a human there to help along the way.

But the technology can do a huge amount like that application form filling.

So the human type it in, in your office.

If, if so, if I email, say I need, I need a hundred Grand Tuesday, right?

We use use smart things like you put in Ari Clark instead of your name.

Anything like that, companies host api, beautiful thing.

I can suck all that data on who you are, who the directors are, what age you're, what sector you're in, and then fill that in every possible form imaginable and save.

Get that time back in your diary.

Same with if you use open banking, plug the bank in, give you all the indicative off.

Whereas all the information in front of you, do you know, when I see you say open banking, I'm very aware of it, but I, to me, I think it's an account.

Yeah, it's great.

We can do the accounts, we can plug it in the accounting system and do the account.

It's much better, you know, reliable source of data, but, and I am aware now that companies, debt companies just say, yeah, I can lend your mind, gimme access to your zero or gimme access to your bank, and then they just plug their computer in.

It runs some graph and says, These guys are a fucking disaster or not.

And when you say how game changer is, it is actually because it's, there's been no truth before.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And, and, and, but the good thing is like, it could be like, no, don't go for monthly.

Like not a good idea.

Yeah.

Not looking so hot in here, but then it can go like, hold on a second.

You fucking eat it.

You are spending, you're Lloyd's bank account doing transfers to your developer.

Yeah.

In Poland.

Why are you doing that?

Yeah.

Use Wise, a revolut and you'll save 10 grand this year.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There you go.

Operating across lower.

So lower you will provide that kind of additional.

It's easy to value as advice, like why on Earth that you're spending this gigantic sum of money on something you don't don't need to do.

And do you just, do you just deal with debt or do you do so So equity and grant.

So, so the other amazing scheme, uh, that is in the UK and has just got better.

The, about the only thing that ever got better in the budget, the last couple of budgets.

C Yes, c i s.

So S C I S.

We love S C I S.

Yes.

True and we love it cuz there's so many rules.

People get it wrong.

We're three years in, in three 50 now, isn't it?

Two 50.

Two 50.

Two 50.

It's three years as well.

That you can, you can, but not until, not until April.

April.

What amazing scheme, because like traditionally, equity is like, For tiny 0.1% of businesses out there, whereas this is about like tapping into literally the private investment market and be like, I don't need you to go to the moon.

I just need you to make a profit and get me my money back in a tax efficient manner.

I often say, I think this is a Gordon Brown thing.

You love Gordon Brown.

I do love Gordon.

Um, I, uh, you know, we, we, we, I, the main, um, tax partner, Jeremy, we had a chat about this, is, it's like they've got a lot of things wrong, but the E I S S C I S V C T, I mean, they're tough rules, but they are, it's, it's driven so much.

The venture capital community's the largest outside of America, hands down cuz of that scheme.

And I, it's the perfect, it's set the perfect level.

I would like to thank Max scheme for my career.

You, you wanna Yeah.

You wanna Exactly.

You wanna put.

200 grand into a company that has got absolutely no hope right now.

I mean, these fucking guys are lunatics with an idea where it'll be 1 51, but you can have half the money back.

For sure.

Yeah.

And if you've got a capital gain, you get 78% of it back.

So it's only gonna cost you a thing.

It looks like a lovely chat.

What about a roll of the diet?

It's perfect.

It's like, it's so good.

It's so clever.

It's fantastic.

It's, yeah, it's, it's so good.

And it's just like trying to make as many people aware of it, uh, particularly in that embryotic stage of setting up a business because it's not about going to the moon.

It's, you can use your network or other networks out there to take advantages of capital to get you up and running.

And the, the other one to, to be interested to look at is the r and d tax credits cause Oh, they're fucking that up though.

Yeah, it's under review.

Do you know this?

Oh, no.

It didn't tell me all.

Well, I read in the FT because there was a scathing article about how this is basically the life science community is our strongest card worldwide.

We're absolute fucking killers.

We got the nhs, we got the thing.

NHS is falling apart.

Yeah.

Problems.

It's becoming fragmented.

It's becoming privatized.

Our crown jewels of of data is getting fucked up.

12 years of a to government late, isn't it?

Yeah.

Well, you know, uh uh, uh uh.

There's much to be said.

I fucking hope someone's kicking their door down saying, you are fucking nuts.

It's mad.

You know, absolutely.

He will destroy the life science industry.

Their problem is fraud.

That's why they're doing it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or fraud.

Yeah.

Make it stricter.

Yeah.

Get more fucking inspectors.

Get tough on it.

That's your problem.

That's problem.

Much fraud all over the place.

Tweak the rules.

Don't be less generous.

You know, the good companies throw everything at them.

You know, maybe just.

We have no grants to this country.

We have innovate, which fucking it's called because if you don't, aren't in AI, robotics or whatever, it's, it's, it's pretty challenging.

They have this thing called the smart grants, which is like 20 million.

They put out kind of once a quarter, uh, and you can, if you're in, you can probably have to put, they have lots, two 50 specialist ones.

How, how much can you get individually?

So individually you can get, well, it's technically 1 25 because it's, you go for a two.

Two 50, but you have to match, fund it.

Right?

Right.

Okay.

So if you go in as a partner, so it's kinda like each fund or whoever, if you go as a partnership or work with a university, you can go slightly more.

The only thing I, I would definitely say as a positive, having gone through one before, is they review it.

And give you all the feedback and five people review it.

So Yeah.

And they hand it different person.

Different person, yeah.

And each thing, you should put an intro I was taught in it.

Oh, right, okay.

Because they're not given the other parts.

Well, that's really silly.

Well, or maybe they're so lazy they just, they can't be asked, so they just read their bit.

But, but I won't say if people are interested in writing grants, because you have to get into the psyche of a grant's judge.

So if you get five judges writing feedback to you like that is useful stuff.

Whether you get or not tells me what you're doing wrong.

It tells you and tells you, actually, have I ever gone, is this.

Ever gonna be.

Cause it's like being back in school and you need to get over 70 or whatever to get a pass mark.

So you know, if you're getting the sixties and one or seventies or eighties and one at least you know, you're kind of on the right direction in terms of a grant or you're getting your forties, just give up on this grant idea.

Mm-hmm.

So I would say it's always painful to go through, but actually I would say going through, cuz it's on once a quarter, there's no harm.

If you've got the time, dude, you do the grant.

You, you companies, you, we match, we match the grant writing because there's so many grants I know.

But are you a personally as a company, are doing grant running?

You outsource We be eight source ground running.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you don't get it the first time, can you go again?

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So you, it can be very useful from that point of view if you were kind of near the margins.

But then if it's five different people looking at the, can't they just send variable five of them?

Yeah, there's five of them.

Yeah.

Can't they put them on a party bus?

And tore them around the fucking place.

And they go all in the, they go in your office, they get, I'm the accountant, I get the accounts, get the fuck around with your zero for a couple hours.

Someone asks your salesperson, someone you know, beat you around a bit.

Yes or no.

Done two hours, all five of them.

They would find out much better.

You just fucking Absolutely.

And they'd meet you.

Yeah.

I mean, you could say what you like, but.

You know, unless these people are assholes, you've gotta have far cool people to find cool people.

If you are, I don't think the government are gonna pay for a party bus.

Okay.

Party bus.

Can't they take the oyster?

Maybe it's Tuesday in the back.

You know?

I'm just saying.

I'm just saying they could get this job and then if they talk to each other they'd say, you know what?

We get a fucking party bus.

Well, I hear there's an Irish e i s.

Yes, it's called e w s.

The frustration with the e w s scheme relative to the e i s and S E I S scheme is it's got moving goal posts, so the rules can sometimes change.

So you could l having gotten E I S S EL eligibility, they might decide to tweak it and change it.

And also you're allowed to do kind of property based off through it, which is a blocker in S E I S and EISs.

So a lot of the investment that goes through ewi s ends up being in a kind of property based assets.

So the, the.

A lot of startups don't actually get it.

And another big barrier is it costs a fucking ton to get an approval.

So you might have to dish out a huge amount of money to work with.

Right.

And then you don't get it and then you don't get it.

Yeah.

But it's actually the network they give you outside of the country.

So hey, enterprise are invested us when we're starting off and they have basically a biz dev office in every major city around the world.

And you will go into that city and.

And you'll ring them up and say, I want to go talk to this bank or this partner, or something like that.

And they will make that happen.

And they will let you use the office space they'll want you to do again.

Okay.

So it's the same as like London and Partners, whatever.

Exactly like that.

And, but, and they're brilliant at it.

Like it's just unbelievable.

What are they called?

Enterprise Ireland.

Enterprise Ireland.

So in fact, funnily enough, I had somebody on, when was it Monday, uh, talking to somebody who said to me, He's Irish.

Yeah, he's moving.

Oh my God.

He's moving to Blackie and he said, should I start my business in Ireland?

Should I set up a company in Ireland or should I set it up in both?

You set it up as a Irish hq and then you set up a branch in the uk, because you set up as a branch in uk.

It allows you to get S E I S and EIS investment like we did, and then you get the hq, which goes into the Enterprise Ireland structure and you're able to go, oh, Andrew, you in Europe.

Yes.

I think it's be something I've been wanting to fucking talk about, you know?

You know, we talk about it in meetings, but get on air is nice.

How, how important these schemes are.

How good they are.

Yeah.

How they're well thought through.

Yes.

How they're pretty simple.

They're easy to apply.

Yes.

And they tip the balance.

I'm gonna invest, don't want lose all that money.

Oh, oh, oh, okay.

Okay.

Why not just, just for a bit of clarity, particularly.

S E I S and e I s are not that simple, that you can do it yourself.

And now a quick word from our sponsor,

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Got it.

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They could also speak fluently in the language of legalese.

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And at this point, let me quickly remind you to give us a nice review, please on Apple Podcast or follow us on Spotify so you'll never miss an episode.

Now back to the chat.

Uh, what do you think is bullshitting business?

Um, it's the disingenuous messages you get from salespeople like Covid, but as was two years ago, stay safe.

Or, you know, it's just like, that's really getting under my skin safe.

And they're like, Hey, how are you?

How's your family?

Did you have really nice.

Break.

Oh, can you please sign this?

Uh, you mean the bit where they phone you up and pretend they know you?

Yeah.

Oh, it drives me off the walls.

It's like, and it's like, and, and they're this bump at the start of an email with all, you don't give a shit.

You, you literally don't care quite.

And it says, hi Christmas or like arrow shaped Stir.

Yeah.

Arrow shakes my surname's.

Stut.

And you are like, okay, you really didn't input the stuff right.

To get my name.

Yeah.

So I mean, it's the, I think it, it's an American thing to me.

That insincere thing.

Yeah.

That like someone worked out in America.

If you say have a nice.

It's in a film.

They say that they, you know, or some friend of mine told me that they used, said, worked out scientific.

If you say have a nice day, sales got by 0.5% or whatever because it slightly improves the customers.

No, I fucking mind That mean it.

Like real deep, elongated trying to make that personal connection when.

You haven't made the personal connection at all and you don't care.

I think that's a good shout.

Uh, what they should do about it.

Stop fucking doing it and just talk to me straight.

Just be honest.

Just, Hey, we've never met before.

Yeah.

I dunno anything about you, but I'd like to sell you this.

Yeah, I'd love that.

No problem.

This is where we're gonna ask you some questions.

Okay.

We have quick fire questions.

Let's go.

We're gonna get to know you.

Five seconds each question.

We are not going to, we are not going to interrupt.

Okay?

Okay.

We're gonna keep it snappy.

He get some id.

We need some music.

Thank you very much.

What was your first job?

Um, I gave out leaflets.

Uh, my friend's dad was running for, to be like a mp, so I, um, got paid per leaflet.

And what was your worst job?

Uh, I had to dress up as Santa Claus once, and I didn't get given a beard and I was about 17 and to men's prize and it locked.

Ridiculous.

Favorite subject is school p.

I love sports.

No.

Yeah.

I just wanna, yeah.

What's wrong with that?

I'm moving on.

What's your special skill?

Um, I, good memory.

You could like geography and countries, I'd say.

What did you want to be when you grew up?

Tennis player.

A hundred percent.

Uh, I, my favorite toy as a kid was like elastic band.

Just kidding.

The tennis ball again, it pretend to be.

It's very strange, man.

Next question.

What did your parents want you to be?

Uh, there's like such a wonky answer, but they're super supportive.

I think this is one we'd be happy and have a good time.

Like they're good people.

Yeah.

Good.

Uh, what is your go-to karaoke song recently?

It's been my way.

Oh, that's my way.

One of mine.

Yeah.

What am I, I just feel like suspicious minds not a great singer, but you can get Crate involvement pretty early and it builds pretty nicely.

And so if it's laid enough in there, you can kind of kind of carry it.

But you're very, um, organized in your head, aren't you?

Very organized.

Now we can karaoke most people.

Oh, I love the bit with the guitar.

Yeah, no, you know, I need to get involve in the early doors.

Amarillo is also a good one for that.

And Office Dogs Business of bullshit.

Eh, I'm, I'm Grand, grand with the, the, the dogs coming in.

So I'm more than happy for them.

Run around the, have you ever been followed?

Uh, no.

Not yet.

Hopefully not.

Just still time.

Yeah.

What's your vice?

Uh, cheese.

I love cheese.

Good.

That's how Vice, that's that thing.

I was like, who do I notice?

Vice cheese?

Vice is, I absolutely love cheese.

Fucking killed it.

Well done.

Okay, so this is where we give you 30 seconds to pitch Swoop, a podcast, a book, whatever you wanna pitch.

Off you go.

Genuinely.

If you're a business and you're not sure you're a financial position and you would look at looking financing options, swoop is a very good idea to come to us.

Swop funding.com.

Lovely.

And Kiran, if people wanna find out about you, where do they go to do that?

Um, well I'll be on the swop funding.com website.

Um, I'm on LinkedIn if you wanna do that.

I've got.

Funky Irish names.

You might struggle spelling them.

C i a r a n.

I think that's how I spelled Kiran.

That's fine.

Um, so you, there you have it.

That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.

Uh, with, um, my wonderful Cars, pepper Stu, our fantastic producer, d.

And Kiran, what was your surname?

Butley or something?

Was it?

Fuck, it's close enough.

There you go.