Episode Summary

Today we’re joined by Jamilah King, an editorial director at Mother Jones. She oversees a team of investigative reporters covering race, politics, criminal justice and more. She previously worked as a managing editor at Buzzfeed News.

In this episode, Jamilah talks about how she got into her career in journalism, her process for editing other reporters and how Kamala Harris’ career evolved since she started covering her in San Francisco.

Guest Bio

Jamilah King is an editorial director at Mother Jones. She oversees a team of investigative reporters covering race, politics, criminal justice and more. She previously worked as a managing editor at Buzzfeed.

Social Media

Jamilah’s website 

Jamilah on X 

Jamilah on Instagram 

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Additional Resources

Below are links to some of Jamilah’s stories: 

It’s Kamala’s Campaign Now via Mother Jones

The Secret To Understanding Kamala Harris (2018)

Kamala Harris Will Be The First Black Vice President (2020)

The Vice President Still Hasn’t Shaken Off #KamalaIsACop (Feb 2021)

Mentioned in this episode:

Rev.com

(upbeat music)

- Hi, I'm Kendell Kelton

and I'm your host today

on The Rough Draft,

featuring honest conversations

with folks from across

the creative industry,

The Rough Draft explores

the creative process, tools

and resources used by some

of the best in the business.

From journalists to content

creators and business leaders,

we shed light on what it looks like

to break into the industry,

make mistakes, collaborate

with others, and the essential tools

that help us all along the way.

This week I'm super excited to

be talking with Jamilah King.

Jamilah is an editorial

director at Mother Jones

and oversees a team

of investigative reporters

covering race, politics,

criminal justice, and more.

She previously worked as a

managing editor at Buzzfeed,

and as a reporter she's

profiled Kamala Harris,

Stacey Abrams, and Lucy McBath.

Her work is also appeared

on HBO, Showtime and CNN.

And on today's episode, Jamilah is going

to tell us about her career

and approach to storytelling

as both a journalist

and editor, including

her extensive coverage

of Kamala Harris over the years.

(music continues)

All right.

Hi Jamilah.

- Hi.

- Hi.

Thank you for coming on.

- Thank you for having me.

It is such a great opportunity to be here.

I use Rev a lot.

- Oh yeah.

- In the beginning of my career,

- Oh my gosh.

Love to hear that.

But I'm just, I'm excited to

get to know a bit about you

and I know our audience will as well.

So I wanna start from the beginning.

What sparked your interest in journalism?

- Wow.

So my interest in

journalism began when I was

quite young.

I was in middle school,

At the time, Stanford had this

really incredible basketball

team that was in their

third straight Final Four,

and they were led by a point

guard named Jamilah Wiedman.

And I was like, I like her name

and also I like basketball.

But that month she was on the

cover of Sports Illustrated

and she was the subject of

a feature by Gary Smith that

was just written in such a compelling way.

It was a pretty, you know,

dark history of her family

and sort of how she overcame that.

I think that was the moment

where I was like, oh wow,

you can write really pointed history

in a way that really

resonates with people.

That said, I don't think I

really made the connection

until years later because I

didn't really pursue journalism.

The one message that I got

growing up from my mom was,

do something you love.

And so that gave me a lot

of freedom in thinking about

what I wanted to do, but I

couldn't figure out for the life

of me what that was until

I was in my early twenties.

- And so what was like that

spark that was like, okay,

I'm gonna do this now.

Where did you go first?

- I went to Craigslist.

That's where folks went back in the day.

(both laugh)

- That's true!

- So yeah, so I was finishing up college

because all I knew was

school, I was like, well,

obviously more school, right?

But I was like, you know, let

me try this journalism thing

before I make any like real decisions.

And so I found my first

journalism internship at

a place called Wiretap Magazine,

which no longer exists.

And it just so happens it

was just like a very small

operation run by a wonderful

woman named Christina Risga

who really kind of just

needed an assistant.

And so we were working out

of her house in San

Francisco and I loved it.

I loved the fact that you,

wait, like you get to read

and write and get paid?

That's really cool.

So that's kind of when it clicked for me

was in the early 2000s.

And that was also a

moment where, you know,

we were in this transitional

moment in journalism where

things were finally becoming digital.

Blogs were a big thing.

And so there was a possibility

because, like I said, I didn't

go to journalism school.

I didn't see myself as a

traditional journalist.

But I did read a lot and

I was really into music.

I was really into culture.

I was really into culture writing

and I've been hooked ever since.

- And then you transitioned

to New York City?

- Yeah, I moved to New York

City when I was 26 years old.

And it was, I mean, it

was all the things, right?

It just so happened it was

around the time when, you know,

social media was really taking off

and there was suddenly a lot

of opportunity in journalism.

And so that's where I got

to sort of be in the belly

of the beast, so to speak,

and really just write

and practice my craft.

- And then you transitioned

to much larger publications, right?

- Yes.

- And so you were at Mike

and your first stint at

Mother Jones and Buzzfeed.

So how did that transition go from being,

you were in this like

cultural, local kind of gig

for a while to then being exposed

on a much larger platform?

- Yeah, it was not planned,

(both laugh)

I think the entire time I was like, well,

I'm still gonna go to grad school.

But I think that, you know,

that moment in journalism

was really interesting

because there was just

so much opportunity,

especially in New York City.

And so I remember going

to my dot com's office for the first time.

It was in the West Village,

and it was this big open concept office

with just, it was just fun.

You know, it was all the typical

things you hear about startups.

There was a bevy machine, there was

free snacks there, you know?

There was just a lot.

There was this huge influx

of capital into media.

Which I hadn't experienced before

because my history was

at smaller nonprofit

or you know, all weekly publications.

I was very skeptical of it,

but also I saw the opportunity

that it gave people.

So, you know, at Mike

I was able to meet some

of the smartest people I know,

and I was able to see kind

of what happens when you just

give a bunch of people

money to create, you know?

And that was really cool.

- You were saying how Mike,

as an example, was getting

this like, you know,

stream of cash coming in,

but then you see media

outlets shutting down

and you know that personally.

So how has navigating that shift

kind of influenced the way

you approach journalism now?

- I think the thing that always

kept me from thinking about

journalism as a long-term

career was the fact

that I was raised working class

and I was raised in like

a blue collar family

where folks had pensions

and they stayed at jobs

for 20 and 30 years.

And I didn't see that in journalism.

I especially don't see it now.

So for myself, I've had to

really become comfortable

with the instability of the industry.

You never get totally

comfortable with it, obviously.

The sort of guiding force

for me has been asking myself

one question, which is,

how can I make myself useful?

You know, so much of

journalism is driven by ego

and you know, it's like my

byline, it's my sort of clips,

it's my body of work.

And that's important.

But I think there's also a

moment where, particularly

if you're a woman in journalism

and you're thinking

about starting a family

or whatever, you have to think about like

what you're actually willing to do.

And for me, that's meant, you know,

having to think about, well, do I wanna be

that reporter who's out

in the field all the time,

filing stories

and you know, building

up that body of work.

But also, are there other things?

Are there other places in the newsroom

where I can be useful?

Whether that's mentoring

other folks, whether

that's editing, whether that's, you know,

just finding places to

fill the holes, right?

Because like you said,

places are shutting down.

So there's plenty of work to go around

and not a lot of opportunity.

So if you do find yourself

with the opportunity

to be in a newsroom, the

question really is like,

how can you make yourself useful?

And how can you kind of

fight against that feeling of

being stuck or feeling stuck, right?

And feeling like you're

giving into the cynicism,

you're giving into,

like that is kind of how the machinery

is designed to work right now.

Right?

And so figuring out how to

be flexible, figuring out

how to adapt, figuring out how to look at

changes in the industry, not as threats,

but as opportunities, is really hard.

And it takes some time.

But that's been something

that's been important to me.

- Mother Jones in particular,

as a nonprofit, which may come

with its own kind of

unique set of challenges,

y'all aren't necessarily

throwing up a paywall to get

to some of y'all's like,

investigative pieces.

And so how does that differ

from some of these like, larger

commercial outlets, like

advantages or hurdles?

- Yeah, so at Mother Jones,

we're a nonprofit, which means

we do not rely solely on

advertising to make revenue.

And it also means that we have

to be really selective

in the types of stories

that we pursue.

We're not gonna send 10 reporters to cover

a presidential, you

know, debate necessarily.

But what it does mean is that we have

to be really selective

in figuring out, okay,

so what is our unique angle here?

What are our hardcore

readers interested in?

I think you have to be a

little bit more scrappy.

- Do you think, and the

scrappy nature, being able

to pour yourself into more diverse content

was part of the decision to come back?

'cause you had left for

an opportunity and then

a year ago just about,

almost exactly a year ago you came back.

- Almost exactly a year ago.

Yeah, absolutely.

The thing that has always

impressed me about Mother Jones is

the longevity of the masthead

and the folks who are in the office.

And so I knew that at Mother Jones,

I could really work on

building a career, right?

Like kind of really,

and I'd made this decision a few years ago

to focus on editing

and try to understand

what that even means.

And I knew that I'd have the flexibility

and also the time to sort of

figure out what that meant

and make mistakes

and be able to sort of

recover from that hopefully.

So that was a big draw in coming back.

And also there was some

really exciting things sort

of bubbling up at Mother Jones

that I knew I wanted to be a part of.

- I wanna kind of talk

about your storytelling,

and you in particular

have reported on such

sensitive and nuanced issues,

and I wanna kind

of understand a bit

more about your process

for ensuring your stories,

yes, they're investigative,

but they're also deeply human.

And so I wanna just get a peek

behind the curtain a bit about

how you approach your work.

You've done, you know, long form content,

you've done podcasts.

Is there a particular channel

that you are called to,

to kind of push your stories

and your work forward?

- You know, I think I would've said

five years ago it was writing,

but you know, I'm pretty

platform agnostic these days.

I think that we're, you

know, as consumers we are

so inundated with storytelling that,

and it comes at us from

all different angles.

And I think we have to

kind of adopt that attitude

as producers and editors and reporters.

I will say that I've really loved audio,

learning more about audio.

I've been a big fan of podcasts for years.

Really appreciate the

intimacy of that platform.

And also there's some

nuances in that, right?

Like, I think there's some

nuances in terms of how,

as a reporter you approach those stories.

You know, what makes good tape for audio

is not necessarily gonna

work in a written piece.

Ideally, all of these

platforms work together, right?

Like I think a Mother Jones

right now, we're trying

to figure out a way

to make individual stories work on a bunch

of different platforms.

- Yeah.

And people are just absorbing

content in different ways.

Like they could have once been a veracious

reader, they have a

busy life now, they have

to catch something really quick.

It's a newsletter

or maybe it's a podcast on, you

know, their commute to work.

And I have to imagine like having

to think about all the

different ways you have

to put a one single story

out there in the world.

Do you find a lot of

creative joy in walking that,

if I read that correctly? (laughs)

- Sure do

- Are there things that you constantly

go to, to like refill your creative cup

or just to get like your

writing or thought process

or editing kind of going?

- Yeah, I'm a big walker.

I've always been a big walker.

I've loved taking super long walks.

I'm lucky to have lived

in really walkable cities.

And so for me, whether it's walking my dog

or just taking long walks by myself,

and recently it's been running,

but doing those things

without distractions,

so without headphones, which is a whole,

it's a really different thing.

I've always been really,

really inspired, particularly

by runners who are able to

run without any headphones,

without any distractions,

because I think that is the hardest thing

in the world to do.

And so, but it is a really

interesting practice in figuring

out how to tune into your breathing

and also surprise yourself

with what things come up.

Right?

I've realized that, you know, as I run,

or even if I'm walking,

I'm usually daydreaming,

and it's aspirational.

If I'm aspirational, I can dream

and think of all these

cool things I wanna do.

If I'm present, I'm like

working through an issue

or a particular problem,

or maybe ruminating

and going over something again and again.

But like, also just trying

to sit with what's present.

So for me, movement is really important.

And, you know, just also

finding joy, man, I tend

to think, I'm really an optimist.

And so trying to find

the things that I connect

with other people on, I

think is really important.

And figuring out

what you can learn from those connections.

- You were talking about connection.

There's some people who are, you know,

collaboration is fun in some

instances and not in others.

And I think when you're

an editor in particular,

collaboration has to be so essential

to the relationships with your staff.

So I'd love to kind of

understand how you approach

that in journalism,

what your take is on it.

- So for me, I've always

been really lucky in

that every editor I've

worked with has been

collaborative in nature

and spirit and practice.

There's definitely, you know, sort of

a confrontational approach to editing,

which I don't really subscribe to.

I don't find it useful

or effective for me.

- And that's what you also see in movies.

Like the editor is always

like this, like badass,

who's like not gonna take anything

and not gonna take any like, questions.

- (laughs) Totally.

I think the portrayal of reporters

and editors in movies is of

these two incredibly strong,

aggressive personalities

coming at each other

at a hundred miles per hour and colliding

and the most powerful winning.

And while I think that might

be true in some ways, you know,

most journalists are like nerdy

little introverts who, you

know, are grateful to

have somebody else to kind

of bounce ideas off of.

And so for me, the process

of journalism has always

been deeply collaborative

because it has always been,

you know, I write this thing,

it kind of makes sense,

usually it doesn't.

So I have an editor who

helps me get it into shape.

I have a copy editor who makes

sure that everything is like,

you know, tidy.

I have a fact checker, you

know, if I'm lucky, who's able

to go through and tell me

what I've gotten wrong.

I have even a web editor

who's able to stage a story,

you know, like I have all of

these people who I'm relying on

to make the story happen.

And I'm really aware of that.

I'm definitely aware of it as

an editor who's been in charge

of kind of pulling all

these pieces together

and getting them out into the world.

And I think the thing that

we miss in this moment of,

you know, influencers and

creators who are kind of tasked

with doing things

completely on their own is

that they don't have that sort of backup.

Whether it's an institution,

whether it's an editor,

whether, you know, it's not

just for the sake of being able

to say, hey, I have a team.

It's, you know, to help

offload some of the work.

And that collaboration

means that you have more

opportunities for people to catch things,

you have more opportunities for people

to help make things better.

And so the onus isn't completely on you.

- So you mentioned fact

checking and I'm interested

because the amount of

information coming out these days

and the risk of

misinformation is pretty high

and AI is a thing that people

use for, we'll say, good

or evil at this point.

How do you see the utilization

of AI becoming more

prevalent in newsrooms,

but how do you see like this

misinformation impacting

reporting at Mother Jones or elsewhere?

- Yeah, I'll start with the

second half of that question.

So I think we just saw it this

week with Hurricane Milton.

You saw so much misinformation

flooding around the internet.

And I think it's difficult

to figure out how

to have that conversation with folks

because on the one hand,

it ultimately becomes a

conversation about privilege, right?

Like, who has access to

information that is vetted,

that is fact checked?

That is sort of the

environment that we live in.

When you're looking at

all these, you know,

storied institutions

that have their reporting

behind a paywall, the free

content that we have access

to is usually questionable, right?

But also the bar to entry is lower.

And so it is easier to sort of be someone

who has traditionally been locked out

of the industry and say, you know what?

I'm gonna start my own thing

and it's gonna be a great thing.

But then you have platforms

that incentivize, you know,

creating constantly.

And so it's just this wild beast

that just keeps growing

and growing and growing.

I think that, you know,

there definitely needs to be

more of a conversation

around media literacy

that's not centered on shame

or on, you know, judgment.

Because I think people tend

to do the best they can with

what they've got and what's

interesting to them, right?

In terms of AI you know,

like definitely when AI

first became a really big thing

what the fuck is this?

Like we're all doomed, right?

And then I was able to sort of

walk that back a little bit.

I was lucky to go to the

Maynard Institute training,

which is an annual training in Texas,

and I was able to meet a

professor at Boston University,

Michelle Johnson, who has

a really great newsletter

that sadly is on hiatus,

but it's called AI Insider.

And it was just really helpful for me

because she basically

like would just explain

what was happening, but also

how you could use these things

as reporters, right?

So how can you make something like ChatGPT

or Copilot or Gemini useful for you?

How do you take a data set for instance

and throw it in there

and make your work as a

reporter more feasible?

And so that really helped

shift my perspective

and say, okay, like this

is useful as a tool.

And like every tool, it's gonna

be scary in the beginning,

just like the internet was

scary in the beginning,

but now we see it more as a tool.

So really it's just my

facility with that tool.

- So let's talk a bit about tools.

Are there any like tools that you're like,

these are the things that every

reporter should use today?

Or like if somebody were

entering their career,

like this is a thing

that even if you have $3

to your name, you should invest in?

- Yeah, so a couple things.

I think a YouTube premium

subscription is key just

because you get access,

you don't have to deal

with ads and all that.

There's also an app called

TickTick, which is a task app

that I am trying to learn how to use,

but the way that I have learned how

to use it is really helpful

and that it helps you sort of

collate your tasks based on,

you know, different buckets,

but also the immediacy.

I would also recommend Canva, honestly.

I think not even just like

making stuff look cool,

but just having the confidence

or having the sort

of visual mindset when you are

making anything from a resume

to, you know, a syllabus to, you know,

a story, whatever it is.

- Well, thank you

for sharing a bit more

about like your process.

And I think we're all gonna

maybe walk outta here trying

to avoid using their headphones

on their next walk or run.

I don't know to what

success, but we'll try.

- It's really hard.

- Yeah.

Jamilah, you

and Kamala Harris are

both from the Bay Area.

- Yes, we are.

- And how do you think growing up in

that particular cultural

and political environment

has shaped your understanding

of her political rise?

I mean, you have been

reporting on her for years now.

- I think growing up in

the Bay Area has allowed me

to understand not just Kamala Harris

and how she approached politics,

but sort of how diverse

a particular like party or

segment of politics can be.

Right?

So I think on the national level,

especially in national

elections, we're used

to thinking about Democrats

and Republicans right?

In the Bay Area, which is

a fairly progressive place,

but there is a lot of gradation in there

and there's a lot of conservative values,

conservative pockets, right?

So if anything, it's allowed

me to I think, approach

looking at her in a pretty nuanced way

because I think the Bay

Area is a really beautiful,

full, diverse, but very nuanced place.

And you know, she grew up in Oakland.

I grew up in San Francisco,

you know, we're about

two decades apart in age,

but I think still like the residue of

so many of the political movements

that the Bay Area is known for

was very much present in my

childhood as it was with hers.

So I'm talking about

the Black Panther party,

I'm talking about, you know,

gay liberation struggles.

I'm talking about sort

anti-war protests and movements.

And so all of that stuff

was really palpable.

And for me, for instance,

like some of the most

tangible ways that that showed

up for me was not, you know,

at my dining room table, it was,

I grew up in San Francisco really

close to the Haight-Ashbury.

And so there were a lot of

sort of aging hippies around,

like folks who come to San

Francisco to protest the war

and then gotten involved and

then gotten pretty deep into

drugs and were like, by my

childhood, like the folks

who were like kind of the

eccentric people in the

neighborhood sleeping on the

streets and whatever, right?

And so I say that because it's, you know,

there's like an idealism that is also kind

of tragic, right?

Like you see kind of all shades of it.

And I think that that has

shaped a lot of my perspective

of covering her rise

and I think my approach

to politics in general.

- What were some of the earlier stories

or maybe even just characteristics

you noticed about her

that may have been

overlooked by broader media

until maybe her presidential bid?

- Let's see, some of the older

stories I think had to do

with how Kamala Harris was able

to build, or not build,

coalitions wherever she was.

I think she was always

this sort of newcomer

who was a little bit different.

And the sort of ruptures

that caused, I think are

probably more telling

of her than the history

that it's made, right?

So I think you'll notice now,

and this year she's not

talking a lot externally about

the historic nature of her

running again for president

or what it would mean for her

as a woman, as a black woman,

as a biracial person to be a president.

And I think that's part of it.

But like, you know, I think

in order to even get through

the political, you know,

gatekeepers of San Francisco,

she had to be really, really ruthless.

That's the sort of through

line that I've seen

with her is just this very calculated

approach to everything.

And sometimes that's been,

you know, not in her favor,

it's made her seem excessively cautious,

but also, you know, it kind of shows that

she's someone who is not just

running on like good vibes

and luck, right?

Like she's had some skin in the game

and she's been beaten up quite a bit.

So that's something I've noticed for sure.

- Yeah.

And I think when,

especially when she was kind

of thrust into the national

spotlight when she was in the

Senate and all of these hearings

that she was participating

in, people started

to really see kind of like that more

ruthless calculated kind of side of her.

And we're like, whoa, who is this?

Like who is this person?

I guess as she's like kind

of moved into that kind

of larger spotlight,

had your perspective of

her shift, like at all?

Or you're like, no, this is the person

that I watched back in California.

- I think she is remarkably similar.

Like she's not a different

person by any means.

I think if anything she's, you

know, smarter, older, wiser.

Like hopefully we all are in the 20 years

that we're doing something.

But I do think that

what has been surprising to me is

kind of watching how she deals

with failure specifically,

and failure, you know,

you can call it whatever

you want when she's running

for president, but I mean, you know,

in 2021 she was having

a really rough go of it.

You know, she was, it was-

- Kind of like, that was

a Lester Holt interview.

Was that her?

- That was, the Lester Holt interview

that went really poorly

and you know, there were

a lot of stories about

how Biden should replace her on the ticket

essentially because of all these things.

And those stories were pretty persistent

all until, you know,

I think that how someone

deals with failure

is very instructive.

And I think in her case

you've seen like a lot of,

I would assume introspection

and sort of just rejiggering

of all the things.

And so yeah.

That's been interesting to see.

I think also, let me see.

Yeah, I just, you know,

it's been really interesting

to see her as sort of like

the center of a universe

of pretty powerful

black elected officials,

black women elected officials

that she's created over the years

that include like Lateefa

Simon and London Breed.

And mostly Californian

politicians who, you know,

are not necessarily all

super loved by progressives.

In fact some of them have

very contentious relationships

with progressives.

And so I personally like

to see that tension.

I like it when it's made clear

that not all black people

and not all black women

think the same. (laughs)

Like, you know, that's important to note.

- We're all just human.

We all have different

thoughts and opinions.

- We're all figuring it out.

And really the question is like,

can she manage an office?

Right?

The most powerful office in the

world, but can she manage an office?

And I think that is the question

that we're grappling with right now.

- Yeah.

And so like the election

is 24 days away from

when we're filming this.

And what do you think in

these last couple weeks,

like the challenges and

opportunities for her campaign?

- At this rate people are

kind of set in their ways

and set in what they think.

So the question is, will

excitement about her candidacy

reach people who were on the fence

and maybe weren't gonna vote,

but now they're thinking about voting?

Right?

And that standom I think doesn't exist

or hasn't really existed

in the Democratic party

since like Obama.

But I think it's also important

to remember that, you know,

Obama wasn't the most beloved figure

for progressives, you know, in 2007, 2008.

Another thing that I'll be

watching, it's a little thing,

but it's like she has

been doing a media blitz.

And I'm someone-

- A big one this past week,

- Which is, and it's not stellar, right?

It's not.

And nobody would be

able to do a media blitz

and have every single

thing be like perfect.

But the fact that she's doing it,

I think is a huge change from 2021,

Lester Holt going really poorly

and then her kind of disappearing from the

public stage for a while.

I'll be waiting for whatever

the October surprise is.

I mean, you know, I don't

know what it's gonna be,

but at this rate in this

election year, it's gonna be big.

- Watching like

how election coverage

has changed since Obama

and then with Trump and

then now with Harris.

How do you think about like,

election specific coverage

and approaching it, because it is just,

it feels like the stakes

are much higher now

- Yeah.

It does feel like the stakes are higher.

You know, I think it's helpful

to talk to politicians,

but I think it's a great

opportunity to talk

to communities about what they

want and what they're seeing.

And I think giving more airtime

to folks in communities is important.

I think elections are an

opportunity to, you know,

it's the performance evaluation

of our leadership every four years.

Right?

And we get to set the goals.

We get to say, this is what we want.

These are the merits

that we're gonna judge you

on over the next four years.

And so my hope is that

more people can be part of

that conversation or

feel like they're part of

that conversation, even if

they're not excited about the

candidate, or candidates.

Right?

I totally understand that.

My hope is that they turn out to vote

and are able to just at least

be part of the conversation,

'cause we're not looking

to have a cheerleader in the White House.

We're looking to have

somebody that we want

to hold accountable.

Like, who would you rather fight with?

Right?

Like, who would you rather

kind of be battling against?

And that's how I see it.

- Well, seems like a great

analogy for editor and staff

and that collaboration

we talked about earlier.

- Definitely.

- Well, thank you so much

for joining us today.

Before we go, can you

let our audience know

where they could find you or your work?

- Sure.

Folks can find me on all

the socials at Jamilah,

J-A-M-I-L-A-H K-I-N-G, Jamilah King,

and say hi.

- Yeah.

Awesome.

Well, we'll link to

everything in our show notes.

And again, thank you.

Thank you so much for joining us.

- Thank you so much for having me.

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- Well, that's it for today's

episode of The Rough Draft.

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