Episode Synopsis

I had the great pleasure of recording with Jaclyn of the Lost Labia Chronicles and Rebecca of Patton Pelvic Health discussing Lichen Sclerosis. We dive deep in this episode not just discussing what Lichen Sclerosis is but also how sex education plays a part, the wonderful world of resources that are available to us when it comes to sexual health, understanding if Lichen Sclerosis it's actually as rare as they say it is or is it just under/misdiagnosed, how trauma all plays a part and places of support that are out there. Some of my favorite parts of this episode was discussing how the nervous system needs to be protected at all costs, the absolute necessity of community not just for healing but for living, and how in order to become a whole person we have to address the whole person. I hope you enjoy this episode because it was a blast recording it!

Just as a heads up - since I am interviewing two guests on this episode, this is a longer episode than normal.

Guest Bio

Jaclyn (she/her) is the Face behind The Lost Labia Chronicles the CEO and Founder of what started out as a blog but developed into a hub of information, resources, tips, tricks, support and just an overall inclusive safe space for people anywhere in their journey of Lichen Sclerosus.

Rebecca Patton (she/they) of Patton Pelvic Health LLC. Rebecca is a pelvic physical therapist who supports all patients of all genders and identities with a trauma-informed and inclusive approach. Rebecca has a passion for destigmatizing sexual health and pelvic health concerns across the gender and sexual identity spectrum and is a second time guest on Moving out of Trauma. Rebecca and I got to have a really great conversation surrounding reconnecting to the body after a trauma and was actually one of the first episodes of the season, so if you haven't given that one a listen, definitely check it out.

Timestamps

[02:16] - Intro

[04:56] - Getting to Know the Provider

[22:39] - Topic of the Week

[01:30:58] - Providers Aren't Robots

[01:33:59] - Trauma Tip of the Week

[01:37:11] - Final Fast Five

[01:44:15] - Container and Calm State Change Exercises

Ten Topics Covered in this Episode

1. The link between autoimmune conditions and stress/trauma.

2. The importance of acknowledging and addressing trauma in patient treatment.

3. The impact of trauma on the nervous system and overall health.

4. The connection between trauma and Lichen Sclerosus, a lesser-known condition.

5. Recommendations for comprehensive treatment for Lichen Sclerosus, including pelvic floor physical therapy.

6. Discussion on the lack of education and focus on sexual and reproductive health in traditional gynecological care.

7. The need for discussions on trauma and Lichen Sclerosus in the medical community.

8. The importance of including both medical research and lived experiences in understanding the connection between autoimmunity and trauma.

9. The significance of sexual health in individuals with conditions like multiple sclerosis and lichen sclerosis.

10. The challenges in diagnosing and treating Lichen Sclerosus, as well as the need for destigmatization and accessible resources.

Resources (and more to come!)

Consent Parenting IG

https://www.instagram.com/consentparenting/

Giving The Talk IG

https://www.instagram.com/givingthetalk/

Erica Smith -Destigmatizing Purity Culture Education

https://www.instagram.com/ericasmith.sex.ed/

Andrea Sexplains It-Dr. Rachel Rubin's office (monthly workshops)

https://www.instagram.com/andrea.sexplains.it.all/

Laurie Brotto -Sexual Health Books

Pelvic therapists

Sexual health/sex counselor

Sex Therapy/EMDR Therapy

Relevant Links

Jaclyn's Instagram

Jaclyn - Lichen Sclerosus Blog (@thelostlabiachronicles) • Instagram photos and videos

Jaclyn's Website

Home - The Lost Labia Chronicles

Rebecca's Instagram

Dr. Rebecca Patton | Pelvic Physical Therapist (@drpatton_pelvicpt) • Instagram photos and videos

Rebecca's Website

Home | Patton Pelvic Health

Connect for consultation with Kandace

https://soulmission-emdrtherapy.com/contact

Sign up for our Newsletter and get your Trauma-Informed Mindfulness Workbook

https://soulmission-emdrtherapy.com/podcast

Leave us a review on PodChaser.com

https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/moving-out-of-trauma-5172742

Kandace's Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/soulmission_emdrtherapy/

Kandace's Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/soulmissionmentalhealthandyoga

Join Us Next Time

Join us in two weeks as I talk with Sarah Painter, a trauma survivor as she shares her story and how she has overcome trauma and found her own path to healing!

Episode-with-Jaclyn-and-Rebecca--edited-

Kandace: Welcome to Moving Out of Trauma. A podcast made to support trauma survivors with actionable steps and resources so they can start moving out of trauma and into the life that they're craving.

Kandace: I'm the host,

Kandace: Candice Ledergerber, EMDR therapist, yoga teacher, first time mom, and dog enthusiast. I am here in Phoenix, Arizona, and I am so excited about

Kandace: today's episode.

Kandace: But before we dive into

Kandace: today's episode of moving out of trauma, I want to give you a few reminders.

Kandace: The first is

Kandace: that if you want to start practicing more mindfulness and incorporate more grounding skills in your daily life, but you've had some trouble getting started because of past trauma, I want to offer you a free trauma informed Beginner's Guide to Mindfulness Workbook.

Kandace: I created this

Kandace: Again, that link is soulmission emdrtherapy. com slash podcast. And a second reminder I want to give is that the end of this recording and the end of every episode for that matter, we will be. giving you two resources that we often use in EMDR therapy, which are the container exercise, as well as the state change place.

Kandace: Alright, let's dive

Kandace: into today's episode. Today on Moving Out of Trauma, I have two wonderful special guests with me today. I have Rebecca Patton of Patent pelvic health. She, they, and Rebecca is a pelvic physical therapist who supports all patients of all genders and identities with trauma informed and an inclusive approach.

Kandace: Rebecca has a passion for destigmatizing sexual health and pelvic health concerns across the gender and sexual identity spectrum and is a second time guest on Moving Out of Trauma as we had a really cool conversation before about just reconnecting to the body after trauma. Um, which was actually one of the first episodes of the season.

Kandace: People in a very inclusive, safe space, uh, for anywhere that they may be at in their journey of lichens sclerosis. Should I say it correctly? Awesome. So today we are going to be talking about this topic of lichens sclerosis and just. All the different pieces that go along with it, and I'm so excited to have you both on here so we can talk a little bit more about this topic, as I know it's an important one.

Jaclyn: Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm really

Rebecca: excited too.

Jaclyn: Absolutely.

Kandace: So for the first little piece of our show, I like to get to know the people on the show with this quote that's knowing a person is like knowing their music, right? What attracts us to them is their melody. And as we get to know them, we learn their lyrics.

Kandace: And so I. Really enjoy that quote, because I think it shows all the complexities of humanness and who we are as not just providers, but people. Um, and so my 1st question to both of you is, why are you passionate about the work that you do?

Kandace: Who wants to go

Jaclyn: I went through a really rough time processing my diagnosis and I remember how. Isolated, I felt how very alone. I just felt like I was in the dark trying to find my way and there was no real resources, no real community that I found. And once I got things in remission and started feeling good again, I felt I want to pay that forward and I want to share all of the wisdom that I've picked up on the way to help support others in that because.

Kandace: I love that. I love the, the pay it forward mentality and really just wanting to just continue that forward and helping other people.

Kandace: That's so beautiful.

Rebecca: I'll go next. Is there more people? I did allude to on the previous episode, just how I love watching people connect to their body. So I'll go in a little bit of a different direction, but I think when I started off on a journey of trying to understand the body. I thought that it was a an isolated journey by myself and I think throughout.

Rebecca: Yeah, so I think it's important to have community when you're dealing with anything and I see in pelvic health and pelvic pain that the isolation is heavy talking about it is not the same as talking about your ankle sprain.

Kandace: Yeah. I really like that you brought up the community piece because that is something that has come up in a lot of episodes so far that I've been recording, not that they've been released, but I've been recording them in the background.

Rebecca: Yeah, definitely. How does your personality

Kandace: show up in the room with the people that you work

Jaclyn: with?

Jaclyn: So that's a funny question because I work alone. Um, I work remotely.

Jaclyn: I'm like, how do I show up to myself in my apartment? This

Kandace: could be the people that you, you support, support the clients that you work with.

Jaclyn: My initial, my, my mind initially went to taking the question very literally. And I'm like, I roll out of bed, I show myself and

Rebecca: I wear my most comfortable

Jaclyn: clothes.

Jaclyn: And your compassion really helped your empathy. Really show up for the community in that way to not just a here's the facts and then I kind of just disappear. Yeah, you got the

Kandace: best of both worlds. I like that in comfy clothes and met in mismatching. Oh, always. I

Rebecca: love that. Yes. What about you, Rebecca? So.

Jaclyn: Probably

Rebecca: And so breaking that down for me has been really important to not be like two different Versions of myself and to say, I'm going to show up as myself in patient care and sometimes they scare you as health care providers to, to do that authentically myself, which is a little squirrelly, like my brain is very excited about things and passionate.

Rebecca: And I just want to give you the most resources. And hopefully people can find like in amongst all the things and advice I have and suggestions, like you find something that fits for you individually, but you don't have to do everything that I suggest.

Kandace: Yeah, I love that. And I can agree from a mental health.

Kandace: That's not authentic. That's not human. We're our own people and squirreliness can come up and and yeah, all sorts of things can come up based off who we are.

Jaclyn: I love that. I'd like to just add that. I think from a patient perspective to that shift away from that clinical presentation is very important and coming to what Rebecca was saying in the beginning, indicates About the kind of isolation that comes with having a genital pelvic condition.

Jaclyn: It only adds to our discomfort and doesn't really leave us feeling safe. And when we don't feel safe, we don't talk or fully disclose everything that's going on. And so that impacts our quality of care because now you don't have the full picture. Because I don't feel comfortable sharing it with you, so I'm all for let's get rid of these boxes because I don't think they're doing anyone patient or provider a service.

Jaclyn: It's. It's not good in either direction. Yeah, it's trash

Rebecca: thrown in the garbage. Yeah, burn it.

Kandace: Yes, no, I absolutely agree. That's yeah. Thank you for bringing that up to and pulling that all together because I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, let's burn all the boxes. Let's just throw them away. Let's rip them to shreds.

Kandace: That's the

Jaclyn: theme. That'll be the name. Burning all the boxes. No boxes, all community.

Kandace: This can however you see fit to answer that.

Jaclyn: I'll go 1st, if I have an

Rebecca: idea, I think that the way I see, like, a future of. People being more empowered in their health care is us not stigmatizing the pelvis from literally the time of childhood and not telling people like very foundational anatomy and function because.

Rebecca: And not empowering when I think it's the exact opposite. If I had this information, if I had basic anatomy and not waiting until college and not even college, but I had to be like a pelvic health specialist before I was educated. I think that's really important. It would be like a shift and a change about the work we're doing is I'm not.

Kandace: Absolutely. I, as you were talking about that, I just feel like it made me think back to my own education and, and I don't think they covered much of anything.

Kandace: I, it, yeah, so I. There's a lot of change to, to take place, to a lot of room for growth, right? And it sounds like you're definitely taking part in one of the leading places to help that growth happen. And that makes me really happy. And I already know that on the back end, but at the same time, I want everyone else to know that you are doing that, those pieces to

Rebecca: help that change.

Kandace: Yeah, so just even understanding the basis and then, hey, when something's wrong, or when something needs to be addressed, this is what this can look

Jaclyn: like. Yeah,

Rebecca: absolutely. Thank you, Rebecca.

Jaclyn: Jacqueline. Yeah, no, I love this conversation and I have to echo so much of what Rebecca said. I think we're just, and I was like laughing internally, Candace, when you were like, yeah, let me think back to my sex education.

Jaclyn: And then it was don't have sex or you'll get pregnant. And that was the end. There's no talk like Rebecca was saying, just bringing it back to basics, teaching us about our body. I always tell this story when I was in grad school, I'm like, I I'm bad with a how old I was. Let's say I'm like 30, no 27 or something like this old enough is the point.

Jaclyn: And he was like, no, you don't, you pee out of your urethra. And I was like, I'm sorry. And then they took a napkin, one of those like napkins that they give you to put your drink on. It took that took a pen and drew me a vulva. And showed me all the different parts and then said, that's your urethral opening.

Jaclyn: That's where the P comes out of your vagina is down here. No P comes out of your vagina. And I think the reason I keep saying this story is because this wasn't me saying this at 11 years old or 10 years old, eight years old saying, mommy, I pee out of my vagina. No, I was 27. I was in grad school. I was. I considered myself to be educated and knowledgeable, but I didn't know that basic fundamental fact about my body.

Jaclyn: And for a lot of folks, that's, that's too late. It would have been nice if you caught this early. And one of the things that I talk about a lot and LSSN talks about a lot is the importance of vulva checks and knowing your anatomy. And you do not need to have a vulvar condition to do a vulva check. In fact, I encourage everybody.

Jaclyn: If they, if it feels safe and, you know, comfortable for them to look at themselves and know what your baseline is so that if you do experience a change, and there are so many vulvovaginal conditions, it's not just about like in sclerosis, there's a ton of things. And almost every condition. It's so important with early detection that we get it caught as early as possible.

Jaclyn: I had no idea. The first time I checked my own vulva was at 31 after I was diagnosed. And I remember when I got the diagnosis, my GP said, did you always look like this? And again, that was another 1 of those sentences that really stayed with me because I realized in that moment at 31 years old, I didn't know how to answer her question because I had never looked at myself.

Jaclyn: Not once and so it's about also just bringing it back to what Rebecca said. De stigmatizing the genitals, de stigmatizing sexual health again, talking about we have it all backwards. We have it all backwards with sex education. We really do. . Yeah.

Rebecca: Hmm. Ah. Um, I wanna be friends with that stranger. I love that they just came up and gave you a drawing, right?

Jaclyn: And like that stuck with me, right? I will never, ever say I pee out of my vagina again. I will always know that I pee out of my urethra. And that was like my first introduction to, oh, the vulva isn't this? Just singular blob down there, there are different parts that do different things and serve different functions.

Jaclyn: So they're pretty awesome.

Kandace: De stigmatizing, and that earlier on people can get that sex education, if that's even happening, I don't know, so I don't, tell me, tell me what that looks like right now, um, in our, our landscape, because I'm, I'm removed from that, at least until my little one gets a little bit older and encounters that, um, it's all conversations at home,

Rebecca: yeah.

Rebecca: What state you're in, what laws they have around what teachers are fundamentally allowed to teach you what your parents education was, socioeconomic status, access to education, the heaviness of That question, I don't want anyone to feel like any individual person it falls on, but I can say I'm teaching a college course right now on pelvic health and even I took a little moment to reach out to a senior professor to just say, hey, I'm talking a lot about sexual health.

Rebecca: Yeah, on a college level, things are much different, but I think it's harder. I don't think that there, I think every state is just so different. In the level of sex education, and then you have to take into account private versus public schools, and then you have to take into account just. Even if someone is allowed to have that education, do they even have a teacher that they can bring in to teach that information?

Rebecca: There's a lot of

Jaclyn: person to get.

Jaclyn: Just

Kandace: education, just the bare minimum education. I won't say bare minimum because what we got was probably bare minimum, but just to get the right information, the

Jaclyn: right

Rebecca: education. Hopefully we can allude to a positive aspect of this. And for me, it's been social media. I really like following different accounts that are doing these.

Rebecca: They're giving parents the advice of different conversations for different ages. One of them is consent parenting. Another one is it's giving the talk. I love that there are people. That are doing this work. I like Anne Hodder's, I think that's her last name, but I'm not positive. Who's a sexual sexuality educator.

Jaclyn: Thank you for sharing that you brought up the social media part.

Jaclyn: I think this conversation is so layered and so complex, and when we're talking at a school level, we're really talking about policymakers, politicians, and that was a tremendous barrier and sometimes makes it feel like we're a barrier. Stuck when there's no way we can enact change because of the political landscape that we're in.

Jaclyn: But then to Rebecca's point, there's a lot out there on social media. There is still a lot of there's a lot of amazing individuals out there that are doing this kind of work. And there's a nice momentum going now, I think in the sexual health space that I hope to just see keep growing and moving forward.

Jaclyn: Rachel Rubin's office as a sex educator, and she will talk to folks of all ages, all genders about. sex education and really give folks proper sex education. I think they also do at that clinic. I think they do monthly workshops for the community as well. So hopefully in more private practice spaces, we'll see sex educators having a space in those offices to help offset whatever the main clinicians are doing.

Jaclyn: It's your urethra. So, I learned, I think. There is a lot of work being done on social media to de stigmatize. And I think one of my roles in that is just speaking so damn openly about my vulva. I always joke that if people put my name into Google search, they'll probably be able to figure out what my vulva looks like because I describe it.

Jaclyn: So graphically without shame, um, that I'm like, if anyone has like a visual imagination, they know what I look like down there and I'm okay with that. Um, because I think the more I talk so openly and I've talked about my issues with sexual health, uh, pain with sex, all of these things, I just talk so openly about them nonstop all the time.

Rebecca: I love that. Yeah, I just going to hold all of that. And that's so amazing, but especially just the loudness and the proudness of that is how we, I remember first seeing your Instagram handle the Las labia chronicles. And I remember thinking, like. Something hasn't surprised me in a little bit of a long time.

Rebecca: And even that I was like, that is audacity. And I love it.

Kandace: Thank you.

Jaclyn: That makes me so happy. Thank you so much.

Kandace: This is anything like my nose, my ears, my throat, my shoulder, however you put it. It's just like any other part. It's not something that deserves to be shamed or shoved away in a corner because it's just another part of my body that deserves attention. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Kandace: Okay. So. Stepping into our topic for today, now, the first question that I posed was, what is lichen sclerosis?

Kandace: And so I don't know if. Both or one. Or how we want two.

Jaclyn: Okay. that me. So define that. Am I up at the top? Okay. Oh, I was

Kandace: gonna say, thought you're raising your hand because you're, oh no,

Jaclyn: that's is me. Can I get an amen or something? ?

Rebecca: No, I just know that Jacqueline has said it so many times that I just know that you have a concise way of saying it.

Rebecca: beautiful or a better than I do.

Jaclyn: Those are the areas that tend to experience it more versus the stomach or the thighs. It is considered to be autoimmune in nature. There does seem to be a hereditary link. Statistics in the research tend to vary between 8 and 16 percent of folks. In those studies do have a relative with like in sclerosis, there does seem to be a hereditary link.

Jaclyn: Some folks just have the pain. Some folks just have the itch and some folks have both and the intensity of the symptoms can vary as well. It can present as mild and sporadic. So I'm sore on and off randomly or itch on and off, but it's not too severe. And then you've got the severe end of the spectrum where folks will say.

Jaclyn: I itch so bad that in the morning, my underwear that I slept in have holes and there's blood under my fingernails from scratching because I'm so itchy. And then there's everything in between. And then when we talk about clinical signs, which is things that you can see. It's often hyper pigmentation, which is a lightning of your skin talking about all the checks.

Jaclyn: It's going to get lighter and lighter. That could be the whole vulva or just a part of the vulva. Um, and then other clinical signs are. Changes physical changes to the vulva. So your inner lips, the labia minora can fuse to the outer lips, the labia majora. They can also actually fuse. Inward, so they can fuse together either at the bottom or the top.

Jaclyn: So when they fuse together, that can sometimes actually impact the urethra because it can actually fuse over the urethra. And now the patient will have difficulty urinating. You can also have fusing at the base of the vagina. Some folks will say it looks like there's a literal shelf, a shelf of scar tissue sitting either.

Jaclyn: So there can be some hyper pigmentation along with it. So there can be some redness, some purple colors again. It really all presents differently on different bodies, but those are some of the main signs and symptoms. And again, it is progressive. It is chronic. So it's something that when you get that diagnosis, it's a forever thing.

Jaclyn: Unfortunately, that's where we're at right now.

Jaclyn: I'm so sorry, let

Kandace: So hopefully that won't happen. No worries.

Jaclyn: Oh,

Kandace: so with all of those different symptoms, and I know you said that it's progressive, but how is this not being caught more often? Because I know one of the things that you and I discussed previously was that, is it rare or is it just underdiagnosed? So like, how is this not being seen when someone's being seen?

Kandace: Yeah,

Jaclyn: It's not classified as a rare disease. Instead. It's classified as high burden and under researched topic for a different day. But all that to say that I also don't [00:36:00] believe it's rare. I do think that it's just we're not catching it. People are going misdiagnosed for years. I think I told you, Candace, for me, it took 11 years to get diagnosed.

Jaclyn: The average is between five and 15 years, which is a really long time. So there's a number of things that I think contribute to the misdiagnosis piece, but I think one is a lot of. Misinformation, so for the longest time, doctors had this idea that to have sclerosis, you have to have itch. If there's no itch, it's not like in sclerosis, so that means that folks like me who would come in saying, I have pain with sex.

Jaclyn: It's really just my older patients that get this. Which was not the nicest thing to hear. Cause then I felt like a strange anomaly and just only contributed to those feelings of isolation. But a lot of doctors will still operate with that assumption that folks in that kind of premenopausal category don't get sclerosis because the old textbooks cite this bimodal peak distribution.

Jaclyn: That basically says two groups of people get LS. Children and folks in post menopause, and they attribute that to hypo estrogenic states. So, in children with children, and then in post menopause, your estrogen takes a nice dip. When estrogen is low, there tends to be more itch. So those 2 groups are more likely to also present with itch.

Jaclyn: they did that study and what they found was in that category. Actually, the top 3 symptoms were all related to sexual health and pain. So it was. Pain with sex, tearing with sex, and then decrease clitoral sensation for that age group. And most specialists, the reason that study was done was because the specialists there were like, I don't understand.

Jaclyn: And so I think that. For doctors who are not so up to date on the current research who are falling back on those ideas of has to be edge, probably going to be post menopausal, then that's a huge category of folks that are just going to be overlooked. Um, and so they go to the default diagnosis, which is usually yeast.

Jaclyn: Is the main one, right? Oh, pain, itch, discomfort, soreness. Okay, you've got a yeast infection. That's the main one. And then the second one is actually herpes. A lot of folks get a herpes diagnosis, which always intrigues me because then I say, Oh, that's interesting. Did they swab the lesions? And they say, no, there was no swab.

Jaclyn: A lot of folks don't actually go to the doctor. A, because maybe they've experienced medical gaslighting in their past. And so they don't trust doctors. So they won't even come in. And then two, there is a lot of shame. I've heard folks talk to me who are diagnosed at 40 and said, I, I had symptoms since I was 20, but I felt so ashamed.

Jaclyn: I didn't want to talk to my doctor about my vulva. I didn't want to talk to them about my sexual health, um, and my sexual health issues. So I just never had that conversation with my doctor. So it's like shame and stigma on our end can prevent or slow us getting in to a doctor's office, which can contribute to that delayed diagnosis.

Jaclyn: everything was telehealth. But the problem is that vulva itch and vulva pain. Could be like, 20 plus conditions and you can't make a diagnosis of sclerosis based solely on pain and or itch. You really need to do a clinical examination. Look at the and potentially biopsy if necessary, but a lot of folks didn't have access to that during the pandemic and everything was being done over the phone.

Jaclyn: And so a lot of folks would get diagnosed misdiagnosed over the phone because they were like, I just can't get. Any provider to look at me right now, because everything is, is shutting down. So I think that was a, an added challenge to that already long kind of laundry list of what could be going on. And all of this is just my opinion of why misdiagnoses are so rampant in this space.

Kandace: More educators to understand, like, Oh, Hey, like maybe it's this, or maybe it's that, and even just bringing that to a doctor and saying, Hey, what about XYZ? And I know doctors aren't the biggest fan of Dr. Google, but at the same time, Hey, like I did this research, I did this homework and this is what I'm experiencing and this is what it lines up with, steps into that advocating for yourself and finding your voice and feeling, Hey, no, I know something is not right.

Kandace: Like here is, here's the information that I have found. Do stuff. You're the doctor. Do stuff.

Kandace: Um, Rebecca, did you have anything I wanted to give you a chance to speak

Jaclyn: to?

Rebecca: Those are all fantastic. I don't feel like I need to really elaborate. The only thing I can say is. I think patients when they have pelvic pain, also there's so many doctors for the pelvis. I try to emphasize this, like when I'm talking and preparing people to get into pelvic health, that it's not the same as other parts of the body.

Rebecca: Do people even know that those exist? And. Did you just go to an OBGYN office? And maybe that OB is more OB focused and not so much on other aspects of updated. I'm going to like Bolvar health and then you have pelvic floor physical therapists that get referred to patients with pain and we should be educated in doing screens.

Rebecca: On every patient on their vulvar health, I think, so that's something that I do every time now, but it's not something I was taught or started from the beginning. Yeah,

Rebecca: of.

Rebecca: No, it's in here. It's all up there.

Jaclyn: Okay.

Rebecca: Oh, if I could, I'll hire somebody though. If anyone wants to put what's in my brain on like a pretty piece of paper,

Kandace: load it all in there, load it up to Canva. It's good.

Jaclyn: Exactly.

Kandace: People to

Rebecca: Jacqueline's resource group. Honestly, I. Participated in her support group on Saturdays and it was fantastic. I can't emphasize enough what a great space they have created with accurate information and just community support and people, a bunch of people going through the same things. It was just soothing

Jaclyn: to my soul.

Jaclyn: Not okay, and I just need somebody to hear it because it's harder to, to talk about these things and, and I love that you mentioned all those different providers because that's also something I didn't know either. When I started experiencing the pain, I thought, apology. That's all I heard about. And then like in sclerosis is a really interesting condition.

Jaclyn: And I think 1 of the reasons that we hit on so many of those providers is because it really sits at the intersection of gynecology and dermatology at its core. It's a skin condition. And we often kind of forget about dermatologists when we talk about in sclerosis. And I do too, for the first two years, even though I knew they were a thing and I knew it was a skin condition, it was just like, I'm so entrenched in this gyne kind of space for sclerosis.

Jaclyn: And then. In all instances, I always say, I wish everybody that got an Alice diagnosis was referred to a public floor physical therapist and had that to. To work with, but it's really interesting because it's. And all these spaces, and there's so many different components to it. It's there's actually a multitude of providers out there.

Jaclyn: But again, we're not, right? Growing up, you have a vulva, you have a vagina, you have a uterus, they say gynecologist, go in, get a pap, get your birth control. Tell them about your periods have them gaslight you about your periods and then leave. Yep.

Kandace: Yeah, that's a really accurate synopsis. Unfortunately, yes, but yeah, that, yeah, well, and you were talking and sharing your both were about this community.

Jaclyn: Just being able

Kandace: to breathe and be surrounded by people that can support you. And if you both feel comfortable kind of shifting gears into that next question, I'd love to hear from both of you in terms of a, how it can be traumatizing, which I think we've been unfolding, but also be what Google says about what could possibly be related to trauma and what you both have found in that.

Jaclyn: I'll

Rebecca: And so I think anything auto immune can be tied to stress. And trauma in some aspect, even though the stories and the journey that people ended up with getting them to that space are so vastly different. And this is not to undermine the physical physicalness of this condition. It is to say that we have done a disservice separating mental health and physical health.

Rebecca: And so someone coming in for any health care service, you have an opportunity as a medical provider to create space for safety. Or openness and space, or you have an opportunity to potentially retraumatize somebody or create their first trauma. And I think fundamentally, if we realize that every time somebody comes in, the main goal is protecting their nervous system above all else, everything else.

Rebecca: But there are there moments of, Oh my gosh, I didn't want to have to acknowledge that this thing was real and that it existed. So I definitely did a good job of attempting to disconnect with the problem for as long as humanly possible until my body was physically like, you better pay attention to this.

Kandace: to, I put a little asterisk next to it, protecting the nervous system. I just, my soul, I just was like, Oh, so beautifully wrapped up there of, yeah, so effing important.

Kandace: I don't, I can't even say anything more besides that. I just need to hone in on that little part. And Jacqueline, if you have anything else to comment, I just, I love that.

Jaclyn: I do have things to add, but I too was like. The nervous system above all else and then I like circled it a bunch of times and I feel like again, like I'm a keeper of statements and I feel like this statement is one that's going to really stay with me.

Jaclyn: And there's probably a multitude of reasons, but it's just not something that. We hear a lot about, but yet if you look at our community, most of them have trauma in their past. And interestingly, and I'll start from the medical perspective and then I'll bring it to a human perspective. Um, there's a recent and Sclerosis update, systematic review published, uh, 2023, I believe.

Jaclyn: Or there seems to be a connection. There seems to be a relation and I'm like, great. So can some of the researchers actually investigate that? Can someone actually take up that question over and above there seems to be a role. And then we move on because that's a really important piece right there.

Jaclyn: That's not something that we want to sweep under the rug. That is something that we should be asking questions about. And I think 1 of the thing is when we talk about. You know, to the community is that a lot of folks think that trauma means sexual assault and it absolutely can. And there are many of us in the community that have experienced sexual assault, myself included, and that is often something that comes up.

Jaclyn: So there are different categories of it. And then the other thing that can come with sclerosis is medical trauma. When we go back to that. Five to 15 years diagnosis. There's a lot of potential for trauma. As Rebecca was saying, as clinicians, you're poised in a certain way where you can protect their nervous systems, or you can ramp up their nervous systems and you can traumatize or re traumatize.

Jaclyn: Childbirth can be traumatic. So there's just, there's so much. There that really needs to be discussed and again, that's why I think I was really excited to have this conversation because I know that the community there's a need people want. Discussions about it, right? So it's just like destigmatizing the genitals.

Jaclyn: It's we need to have conversations about trauma again. We do the community a disservice when we just sweep it under the rug when we say, oh, yeah, there might be a connection. Goodbye. So maybe I don't know the full connection, but let's talk about it anyway, because there's a lot of wisdom in our community.

Jaclyn: But yeah, that's. It's definitely, I think there's a connection, and I also agree that when we're talking about autoimmunity, we need to be, again, discussing trauma.

Jaclyn: Thank you for

Kandace: sharing all of those different pieces, because I think that it's, like you said, it's so important to look at all of the different... Not pieces of trauma, but all of the different types of trauma, right? Because there are so many ways that a person can be impacted that it's not just always, because I think, yeah, when people typically think of, oh, if you were traumatized or you went through trauma, right?

Kandace: Sometimes just starts with the fact of, yeah, I've, I've been through some stuff and that's just, of course, speaking from my perspective as a mental health provider, but just like there's so many different pieces of physical trauma, like you said, thank you for illuminating

Rebecca: on that. Yeah, I think it's interesting how no patients ever really think that.

Rebecca: Not for the most part, I think that their own personal struggles have been enough to be classified as any type of tea, any type of trauma. Other people have that experience, but it's interesting. But we don't get to pick. We don't get to pick. It's not a conscious choice to be like, I'm going to be traumatized by this thing.

Rebecca: We start to do internal pelvic work. And we'll talk about getting into the nervous system and anything that has been suppressed and stored away in like a tiny little box. And you get a pelvic exam a couple of times. And I have people saying, yeah, so I had some memories of these things that came up after our session.

Kandace: bodies are so intelligent and so intelligent and that they do. Yeah. They really.

Kandace: They tap into that and protecting us and at the same time, being able to cue our bodies and say, it's okay, we're safe now we can breathe. We can process this. We can, you know, work through this. Um, it's so interesting because yeah, our bodies are so intelligent, but we also have to tell it sometimes a little kid, right?

Kandace: It's okay. It's okay now. Um.

Kandace: Um, I know 1 of the pieces that we talked about before we started recording, um, is how sexual health plays into all of this. Um, and into, uh, the trauma pieces. And so, um, I would love to. Get you both, um, to weigh in on that and talk about that some more as well.

Jaclyn: I think

Rebecca: Does it look the way you want? And so facilitating those conversations is some of my favorite. Conversations of just meeting somebody where they're at with their perception of sexual health and I probably scream from the rooftops. I'm sex positive. I'm positive. I'm like polyamory positive. You can tell me anything and I just want to make sure that you are having the [01:03:00] sexual health that fits for you.

Rebecca: You have a right to that health. It's a part of your health care. And we know that people who acknowledge that sexual health distresses them report lower quality, report lower quality of life. It's not just something that stays in the sexual health box, but it meanders over to other aspects of health as well.

Rebecca: So we can't be ignoring sexual health. Um, and in that statement of Sex positivity and all these things. I also have people that aren't on that same page coming in and that's totally okay, if you're only thinking right now is I need to get out of pain and I just need something, something to be tolerable before I can even imagine and conceptualize pleasure.

Rebecca: I can like it. How do I do that?

Jaclyn: Yeah. I love that. I love that you make space for folks who sexual health is not the focus. Because I think when we talk about sexual health. It just goes straight into insertion and all of that, and it's that might not be somebody's priority right now, like you said, the priority might be 1st step is just pain.

Jaclyn: These things are all intertwined. And so when I think about how sexual health with lichen sclerosis can be traumatic, I think about how we can lose body parts. That can be really traumatic for folks because we're not raised being told that, Hey, your clitoris could just disappear. You completely resorb into the surrounding area, or you can lose your labia, your Vaginal opening can narrow and close.

Jaclyn: These are terrifying things for folks. And I can say as somebody who kind of works on the front lines as a support resource, there's a lot of trauma and distress around that alone about processing the loss of a part of their body that they really. Had a strong identity to a sexual identity to it's really hard for folks to lose that part of them and grief comes in distress comes in all these other things.

Jaclyn: So yeah, when I say he's supportive, I mean he is like a very supportive, but a lot of folks don't have that. And so some folks go through divorce because of like sclerosis, and that can be a really traumatic thing to just tear. To experience recurrent tearing with insertion of any kind is also traumatic, whether it's with a sex toy, a finger, a penis, et cetera.

Jaclyn: And so to have your body split open and tear like that repeatedly, when you try to engage in any kind of sexual activity, uh. That can be really traumatic for a lot of folks. And again, it's like a mental health and sexual health combined, because there's a lot of distress about it. Then you start losing confidence, your body image starts to change.

Jaclyn: It's just, there's so much to really unpack in that area. And that's why it is such a passion for me to talk about sexual health, because we're not talking about it enough. And it has deep effects on people. It really does.

Kandace: Something that was sticking out to me as both of you were speaking is that it's the whole person, right?

Kandace: But it's the whole person. Like we are one whole being and we need to be. Wholly taking care of and all these different facets to really feel

Jaclyn: whole

Kandace: and that sounds simplistic, but it's

Jaclyn: so true. I actually think it's not, I don't take that as simplistic. I think that's actually really profound. And as you were speaking, I reflected on my own experience and Rebecca was saying.

Jaclyn: It's almost like I went to pain to like a pain therapy clinic at one point, and they wanted us to do a body scan and I sat there thinking, why on earth would you ask chronic pain patients? To sit in their bodies and focus on their pain. Like we want to escape. We want to get out. Like, why do you want, it seems so counterintuitive, but then I really do think that when we think about the wholeness of the person, it's like, no, I was actively working on.

Jaclyn: Dismantling that wholeness, because I couldn't sit with that wholeness, that wholeness was, it was so hard to be a whole. So I had to actively start making a puzzle and taking some pieces apart because that's how I coped in those moments really was by disconnecting.

Kandace: And that's how so many people cope.

Kandace: Yeah. Sorry.

Rebecca: Tell me about the right versus left side. Tell me about what does this like, texture feel like? Does it feel rough or smooth? And all of these things are like, what does this pressure feel like? Can you feel the difference between this pressure on your pelvis versus this pressure on your thigh? And what I'm really trying to do with all of these things is.

Rebecca: Thanks. I don't want to say it's not trying to force somebody to be in their body, but just see, like, how the body responds by actually being present during the exam and not like a passive participants of something happening to their body, but they're actually physically there. And they're not only there, but they're like.

Rebecca: It's is keeping you safe and as soon as we start to break it down, it's extremely vulnerable and a lot of that just feels like danger. Even someone coming into the office, even someone agreeing to do an exam that in of itself is like. Huge remarkable steps in the right direction and everything is not going to get done typically in one pelvic PT session.

Kandace: It almost reminds me of grounding, not necessarily like a hundred percent, but it does.

Kandace: It feels grounding. It feels very allowing that person to feel the safety, but also have the voice. So you're empowering them, but you're also helping them ground in the present. So that way they can be present with you instead of passive.

Rebecca: Yeah. I need that. That's the most important part. And also some people do feel grounded and some people.

Rebecca: I absolutely hate it and I get it. So I try not to ever like push someone to get whether or not ready to go to, it's always just a matter of it's, but it's hard to answer questions about your body. Like you said, when you're asked to like sit in your body and pay attention, I definitely, some of the questions I ask are abstract.

Rebecca: But I love that. That is the aspect of health care that excites me because when someone leaves from that session, they're like, okay, I didn't fix it. I didn't fix something, but I made a new connection. That is super exciting. And I can't believe I did that. I love that.

Kandace: Oh, that's so much. Um, so I want to ask about places of support.

Kandace: Um, because I know that was another piece of this puzzle and I know Rebecca, you shared like. All of these different professionals that are helping professionals that could fit into that puzzle. Jaclyn, I know you have a huge community. I really just want us to hone in on that for a second and talk about the resources that are out there.

Kandace: The resources that you both provide and how they can

Jaclyn: Resources.

Rebecca: Okay. I would say pelvic therapist for the aspect of the physical work of the body. Right. And knowing that there is a relationship to your brain and you're going to have to participate in different ways, but, um, pelvic floor, physical therapist for pelvic floor muscle retraining, because obviously if you've had itchiness or pain or just chronic, like irritation, then.

Rebecca: And I know Jacqueline will like say yes, sex therapy. And I'm also like, yes, sex therapy, because I think it gets. I think just putting the word sex in front of therapy is like confusing for people and scary for people. I gotta talk about sex the whole time. No, that's not really how that works. The whole person.

Kandace: Whole person. Right.

Jaclyn: But

Rebecca: the problem is sex therapists are... Like they're busy. Okay. They're busy people and they got busy schedules. And so who is like certified and then like, I know you do EMDR. So then there's like EMDR. So having somebody to help you navigate like the therapy world and who would be like a good therapist that fits like your needs and the needs of each person are different.

Jaclyn: Yes, we know. I love my sex therapy. Talk about it all the time. And yeah, it's funny because I did sex therapy for almost three, three years. And most of the time we're not talking about sex. So just to validate, I think it's true that some people have this, Oh, Oh, not for me.

Jaclyn: That's too intense or whatnot. I don't want to just talk about sex to a stranger. And you might not even bring up sex for the first 12 sessions. And even then it's may not even take center stage. And also it could, if you want it to though, you get to dictate what gets. Airtime, so to speak, so I think in terms of resources, I'm going to start from the support group perspective, and then I'm going to work my way up to different kind of professionals that you can bring in.

Jaclyn: It was so powerful because again, when I was diagnosed, I was told, Oh, this only happens to happens to post menopausal folks. So you're really strange in this respect. You're like a weird anomaly. And so I live in a city of 3 million plus people. And I felt like I was the only person. And for the first year of my journey, I didn't know a single face, single voice.

Jaclyn: When I talk about the discomfort I'm having, they don't tell me. Oh, yeah, I've had yeast infections. They suck, but they really truly get it. And the community, for the most part, is incredibly compassionate and very empathetic. And they really show up for each other in a really beautiful way. And so support groups, there's so many out there now.

Jaclyn: I think that's 1 of the beauties of. How this community has been shifting when I was diagnosed, there was not much and now there's a whole host of options. So there are a ton of different Facebook groups. I don't admin any of them, so I can't vouch for them, but they are out there. There's also Reddit has a forum on there.

Jaclyn: I always like to start with. Hey. There is still something here that is accessible for you. There are these Facebooks. You can access 24 7 and somebody will answer our support group. It's free. It's every other Saturday. We offer 2 sessions, 2 to 2 to 4 and 7 to 9 to try to accommodate as many time zones as we can.

Jaclyn: Right? Some folks are really shy, really anxious and, or they still do carry a lot of shame and they aren't comfortable talking about their genitals to strangers on the Internet, or they just want. More time, so 1 of the things with the support groups that we have to be mindful as you're sharing your time with others in the community, which means that you can't necessarily show up and ask 40 questions that you have.

Jaclyn: You have to limit it to 1 so that you make space for everybody else for folks that maybe have a lot of questions that don't feel comfortable in a kind of group setting. I do offer 1 on 1. Calls, uh, different lengths, depending on what folks need. Um, so those are like the main things. I also do have a free ebook.

Jaclyn: Ton of support resources there at the end, and then building out, it's really about building a team to support you. So your support group or your peer support is part of that. And then it's different professionals. So therapy. Absolutely. And therapy may look different for each person. And you can also, one thing I tell folks is you can have more than one therapist.

Jaclyn: I think sometimes we think you got to just pick one. And I'm like, no, you could have a sex therapist and a pain counselor or someone that works strictly with chronic illness. You could do both if that's accessible for you, both time and financially, et cetera. I do live in Canada, so I'm also mindful that what's accessible for me in this country is slightly different.

Jaclyn: We did mindfulness practices together. We had support group spaces. We had access to the psychologist and this was again, 12 months all free. So again, just. To be mindful that, you know, folks listening in might be in different parts of the world, but so we tend to think, oh, you do therapy, you commit to one.

Jaclyn: It's one type. So I do talk therapy and that's it. But it's again, no branch out. And it might be some experimentation trying to figure out what you need. And also those needs might shift. So you may start with a sex therapist. And then you feel like, okay, I feel good, but now I feel like maybe I need to work through some trauma that I haven't addressed.

Jaclyn: Art therapy can be very helpful for a lot of folks as well, and something that I think doesn't get spoken about a lot art therapy was one of my favorite things growing up, because as a adolescent, I found it very challenging to find my words to represent what was going up in my. Head and so art therapy was so freeing for me because I didn't have to use my words.

Jaclyn: I just got to and I guess, in a sense, it's like a. Somatic experience too, because you're just letting the body do its thing, right? You're just picking up the colors and moving your body in different ways to do whatever you're doing on the paper. And so I use the word therapist and therapy in that really broad way.

Jaclyn: It's called body scan by Jane, and she does a lot of public for meditations. And what I love about her channel is that some of these are really short, like she had three minute meditations, five minute meditations. And I love this because a lot of folks tell me, I know meditation is great. I know the science behind it is strong, but girl, I don't have 30 minutes, an hour of my day to be doing this.

Jaclyn: So that's where I, I like to always, I always try to do free and paid at the same time of any category. Um, so that folks always have options. Another thing is 1 of my good friends, Penny. She is a certified yoga coach, and she has a public floor yoga membership and she does public floor yoga. And there, she also does EFT.

Jaclyn: She does breathing techniques, meditations, all those types of things. And again, with the meditations, I always tell folks like. YouTube is free. Just if you can't afford certain programs, certain this, there are some amazing folks on YouTube with quality content. Don't underestimate the value of just plugging something into YouTube and giving it a go.

Jaclyn: So it's almost like having an extra degree, continuing education, something like that. So their prices can be a bit higher. Um, but a lot of sex educators like Selena Gomes, who also has in sclerosis, she does offer one on one kind of sex education coaching. And so that can be another avenue for the middle, a midpoint sex therapy being the most expensive and then a midpoint being a sex educator.

Jaclyn: And then the 2nd workbook is helping you do these practices yourself. Um, maybe again, like. Prices will vary, but you're talking maybe 30, 50 for both books, depending on where you are, where you're ordering from, but that's a 1 time payment. And then you can do that again. If a sex educator 1 on 1 is too pricey, then you have those books and those workbooks and stuff like that.

Jaclyn: So always again, I like to. To offer free paid and something in the middles. Yeah, I know that was a lot of resources, but I.

Kandace: Beautiful. I do want to ask, what was the last Lori? What was the last name?

Jaclyn: Dr. Lori Brotto. B R O T O.

Kandace: Okay, I completely had that wrong, so I'm glad I asked. I was typing along as you both were talking, so I wanted to make sure, and I'm gonna link as much as I can in the show notes, and I will email you with my

Jaclyn: questions.

Kandace: I can put it together. Perfect. Thank you. Yes. And I think I

Jaclyn: just spoke for 10 minutes about resources, so I'm happy to put that in a concise.

Kandace: Oh my gosh. Yes. I absolutely love it. As I was going through and typing it, like I was so much juicy, good resources.

Kandace: So

Jaclyn: thank you both.

Rebecca: That's what we need. That's what people, this is maybe just like a little tiptoe dip in the water podcast for somebody and they're like, I need something else.

Kandace: Where do I go from here? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So we are going to take a quick break and we'll be back in just a moment. Daily

Kandace: And more than that, it gives you actionable steps and it's packed with information. So whether Your schedule looks like a stay at home caregiver, whether you're someone who works a nine to five or something else entirely. There's something in this workbook for you. So you can head over to soulmission emdrtherapy.

Kandace: com slash podcast. You can subscribe for our newsletter where you'll get reminders once a month about new content and an email with that free workbook. Again, that link is soulmission emdrtherapy. com slash podcast. And you can find that link in the show notes. If you are enjoying this episode, and I truly hope that you are, if you think that it might be useful for someone else, please consider leaving us a review on your favorite podcast platform or on podchaser.

Kandace: So if you'd like to find out more about this, I invite you to set up a free 15 minute consultation where we can chat about if this type of work is right for you. Uh, it is also a great. Accompaniment for if you are already working with a therapist and you're having a hard time breaking through some kind of block or trauma response or trauma trigger You can go to soul mission dash EMDR therapy comm slash contact which will be in the show notes All right, let's get back to today's episode.

Kandace: Uh, would you feel comfortable in sharing? Something that just gives an example of your humanness that you are, in fact, not a robot, you are a human. , .

Jaclyn: I am more than an encyclopedia, guys. Yes. I'm more than an encyclopedia. .

Kandace: Yeah. .

Jaclyn: Yeah. I, you know what? First of all, I love this question. Just in general. I always tell people, you are more than, you're like, sclerosis, and whenever I mm-hmm.

Jaclyn: One thing. So if you ask about what I'm passionate about, and it's not LS, it would be anime. I'm a huge anime, manga geek. Like I'm repping my Jujutsu Kaisen right now. The last podcast I was on, I was wearing Naruto gear and the podcast host was like. Is that a Naruto shirt? And I was like, sure is,

Kandace: sure it is.

Jaclyn: So when I'm like not doing LS work, I am watching anime or reading manga. Either physical copies are on my phone or I am shopping and looking for figures and stuff. My husband and I, what we, we both watch this series. I don't know if anyone listening will know this, but it's called one piece and they there's, it's about pirates.

Jaclyn: Boat together and it's super fun. Yeah. And I think a lot of people like, don't expect that out of me when I show up like this with my enemy shirt, it's okay. Fine. Fair. But in general, I think when people see me as citing medical research and talking so clinically about things. They probably don't expect that.

Jaclyn: This is like what I love to do in my spare time, but it is love

Kandace: I feel like you've given a lot of trauma tips in this episode, honestly, but if there was one that you had to boil it down to, what do you feel like it would

Jaclyn: be? I think, and this is going back to our conversation earlier, but it's to not diminish your own trauma. I really think there is that tendency and us to do that and I did it with myself and it was only when I volunteered in grad school on a crisis line, crisis support line that I realized I was doing this to myself and that I was constantly like, it wasn't trauma because this person has it worse or it wasn't trauma because.

Jaclyn: Work with it. We can't learn from it. Um, and we really can't start that healing journey because we're just flat out not acknowledging it. Um, I think if anything of all the tips that would just be, don't diminish your own trauma and then know that there are resources out there and that there's a diversity of resources.

Jaclyn: So again, coming back to play around, a lot of folks have never heard of EMDR, but it is incredibly helpful for trauma. Incredibly helpful. But again, we're just so ingrained in this talk therapy couch chair. I say you ask a question, I respond, you analyze, and then I leave kind of thing. But there are so many different ways that you can find support in healing from that trauma.

Jaclyn: So don't minimize and know that there's hope and resources out there for you. Yes. Yeah,

Kandace: And so just figuring out like, what do I need in this moment? What is my body telling me? What is my soul telling me? What do I need to move forward to the next phase? phase or just to move forward, period. And then go from there and play. I love how you put that to play because yeah, when we're in the midst of it, it can feel like work, I think for a lot of people.

Kandace: And so instead of trying to reframe it of like, I get to play around and see what is out there and what feels good for me right now and figuring out like, how do I go forward and playing with that and making it, um, A journey of curiosity rather than I have to do this.

Jaclyn: And we, again, there that we build this disconnect and we lose that sense of curiosity and play, but it's so important.

Kandace: It is. It's so important. All right. So the final fast, sometimes funny questions that I like to ask everyone on this show again, just to hone in on our humanness. And I think it's just a fun way to wrap up the show.

Kandace: So with the first one being, where would you go if you could visit any place

Jaclyn: on earth? Not a different planet. It would be surprise, surprise Japan, because Anime

Rebecca: manga.

Jaclyn: Yeah. And so like in Japan, they have all these like anime hotels. So I'm like the biggest Naruto fan. And so I want to stay in like the Naruto hotel.

Jaclyn: It's like my biggest goal in your bucket list. Yeah. So people might be like, that's where you want to go. You want to go to Japan for a Naruto hotel? Yeah, straight up. Yes.

Jaclyn: like what is So everything, physically, looks like you're in their ninja world.

Jaclyn: So Naruto So One Piece is like pirates, Naruto is ninjas. And so they'll have, there's this character, Jiraiya, who's always peeping over this little fence, if you will. And he's in the bathroom peeping. And then you have ninja. Sleeping bag things all with the logos of the different clans. You have slippers with the logos of the clans.

Jaclyn: You'll have the Akatsuki robes. Um, it just very much looks like you are in the Naruto world. Their baths look like the baths from the show. It just, everything is geared up. They like, no detail has been omitted.

Kandace: So it's like Disneyland, except for, yeah. Okay. All right. That makes sense.

Jaclyn: I get it. I'm going to use that in the future.

Jaclyn: A lot of people are like, what the hell is

Jaclyn: love? Probably hearing from folks that for the first time ever, they felt hope or that. For the 1st time ever since being diagnosed, they have the will to keep living.

Jaclyn: That's something we get a lot and I think that in itself is so powerful to just. Know that you're helping supporting other people. I can't think of a better motivator than that.

Kandace: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I think, uh, that, that hope, it's so important and it, I think it can be lost really easily, but it also like when someone finds it, it's just, there's nothing that feels quite like that.

Jaclyn: point. Yeah. Like it's probably anime and how obsessed I am with that and that and all of that. I guess some people might be surprised that I am like a heavy weight lifter. I definitely love lifting very heavy things in the gym.

Jaclyn: And I'm also very outdoorsy, like I grew up camping and my dad was like, it's not camping if you're in a trailer. It's only camping if you like pitch the tent yourself. And yeah, so that's how I grew up was like. With that kind of mentality and normally I'll have a full face of makeup, like lashes, contour, like everything.

Jaclyn: I can portage. I can stick the canoe over my head. Dang. I'm good. I got you.

Kandace: Yup. I love that. That's great. Um, what does one simple moment of pure

Jaclyn: joy look like for you? Oh, my gosh, I love this question, although it is something that I struggled with for so long because of that disconnect that I created with my body.

Jaclyn: And she threw me in. And my dad had that face. My dad was horrified. He was like, what are you doing, ma'am? I'm like. That's our infant child. And she was like, don't worry. My family's competitive swimmers. We're all swimmers. She'll be fine. And apparently tiny little infant me was just beaming from that very young age.

Jaclyn: Yes. I'm still here. So I survived, but I just, I love being in water and water is such a powerful thing for me, and it's also very soothing. When I feel very anxious, I turn off the lights in my bathroom and I. Take a shower so that the light is off and I can really just focus on the sensation of the warm water running along my body with no distractions of, Oh, I need to clean that.

Jaclyn: Or, Oh, that shampoo bottle is almost empty. I really need to throw that shampoo bottle out. Like none of that because it's dark and I'm just focused on the water. So yeah, water brings me joy. I

Kandace: Just. Learning and understanding so much more about LS, but also just like the community around it and all of the pieces that are intertwined with the healing process for those. And I'm hoping that this show will give someone out there, hope and information and resources that they need. So thank you again so much.

Jaclyn: Uh, thank you for having me. This was a brilliant conversation and yeah, I've just, I've learned so much. I've taken away so much from this, so I'm very grateful to you.

Kandace: Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today on moving out of trauma. If you'd like today's episode and you think it might be useful for someone else, please consider leaving us a review on your favorite podcast platform or on podchaser.

Kandace: And remember, you did not choose trauma and you can choose your path towards healing. This is Moving Out of Trauma.

Kandace: So I just want to invite you to find a comfortable position and to make sure that you're doing this exercise somewhere, uh, safe, somewhere where you feel, um, that you can take a few moments for yourself, um, and definitely not while you're driving. So we're going to start with a container activity and then move into the calm seat place.

Kandace: Files are in a safe place. You can access them the next time that you need to. So, to start creating this container, I'd like you to imagine some kind of container or storage system that can securely hold as much as you need it to for as long as you need it to until you're ready to work on it again. So, this container can be something you imagine.

Kandace: So take a moment and really think about what that container might look like. Notice how the container feels. Notice

Jaclyn: how it feels

Kandace: that it's there for you should you choose to use it. Or when you choose to use it.

Kandace: Now once you feel like the things that need to be in the container are in there, I want you to close that container. Some people like to imagine that there's a lock there or some kind of secured closure beyond just a, a lid. So if you like, you can go ahead and lock that and then just imagine it kind of taking its place back into wherever it needs to be.

Kandace: So this could be a place that you think of in your home. This could be an imaginary place,

Jaclyn: wherever it is.

Kandace: Just some place that we know that it's there when we need it.

Kandace: So see if you can think of a place where you might feel a sense of calm or a sense of wellbeing. You can imagine a place that's similar to one that you've experienced. heard about, or read about.

Kandace: So just notice this place. Notice what you hear.

Kandace: Notice what you smell.

Kandace: Look around. What do you see?

Kandace: What do you feel? Maybe either the temperature, the time of day, even down to how you feel in your body as you imagine

Jaclyn: yourself in this place,

Kandace: Now, knowing that this place is always available to you because it is. Within you. It's a place of your very own, making a place that you can return anytime you need, whether it's for quick, deep breaths returning the center, or maybe [01:51:00] even winding down for the evening. This place is always here for you. So

Kandace: this recording is going to finish, but if you'd like to stay in this place a while longer, you're certainly more than welcome to do so, and I hope that you'll join me next time on moving out of trauma.