Summary:

In this episode of the HR Impact Show, CT interviews Kim Williams, the Vice President of People at Walker Advertising, about executive abuse and how HR can effectively manage up. Kim shares her experiences in dealing with toxic work environments and provides insights on how to address and prevent executive abuse. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining a positive workplace culture and aligning HR practices with the organization's mission. Kim also introduces her "Fear Not" framework, which helps HR professionals proactively manage executive abuse situations.

Key Takeaways:

1. HR professionals should build relationships with leaders to establish trust and create a safe space for difficult conversations.
2. Addressing executive abuse requires acknowledging the fear and emotional impact it has on HR professionals.
3. The "Fear Not" framework (Fear, Evaluate, Articulate, Resolve, Navigate, Outcome, Talk) can guide HR professionals in managing executive abuse situations effectively.

Timestamp

[0:03:02] Discussion on the negative impact of executive abuse in the workplace

[0:05:17] Advice on responding to a toxic work environment

[0:08:07] Strategies for managing defensiveness and anger from executives

[0:11:12] Common abuses addressed by HR interventions: unconscious bias and discrimination

[0:13:44] HR can proactively build relationships and prepare for incidents.

[0:15:02] Fear Not framework

[0:19:45] Empathy for victims and executives, holding space for all.

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Kim is the vice president of people at Walker Advertising and we're very privileged to have her join us today on the show.

Kim Williams: . Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.

CheeTung Leong: Tell us a little bit more about What the vice president of people at Walker Advertising does

Kim Williams: a little bit of everything.

We're a smaller company we almost have a little bit of a startup slash kind of family feel where we all get to know Each other a little bit. So we provide support for Helping maintain a positive culture. We do a lot with employee relations classifying jobs and working on compensation programs and Generally, just taking care of our

people

Kim Williams: I'm very proud to work for this company. We were founded 40 years ago by an amazing woman. She was a court reporter and she was working in L.

A. And she was just seeing that a lot of folks that were either new to the country or, through language barriers weren't doing very well in our legal system. So she started an informal network of Spanish speaking attorneys to help folks that she would run into in her job. And it really just blossomed into this big business that was well known in L.

A. and then in California, and she retired out a couple years ago, and then since then we've been working to go nationwide and working in the English market as well to really just help people access justice and make sure that folks can get legal representation without any upfront costs.

Kim Williams: We lead with that.

When we go out and we talk about like our value proposition as an employer, we find that resonates with a lot of people and they'll speak to that when they're applying with us, we'll ask them, what attracted you to our company? And they'll talk specifically about that mission.

And I know it feels good for me personally, and I know I've heard for a lot of employees that there is a sense of pride and that your contribution has meaning.

CheeTung Leong: I

remember that in our earlier conversation and thinking how unusual it is that mission that you guys have and how much it must resonate for people in the organization.

Kim Williams: Part of what we were just talking about a little bit with the social justice component, and it has definitely attracted a lot of people with just big hearts and very kind people that work at our company. And it was definitely one of the things that had also attracted me.

And then I really love is the people. And I think we all like that in general. But, I was especially keen on environment like that because. In my last position, I worked in an environment that was perhaps like one of the most toxic environments I had ever worked with in my entire life. And I was working in this role as.

The head of HR and I was reporting up to the top executive and it was an incredibly hostile environment. There was a lot of harassment and for the 1st time in my career, I found myself in a place where I was a little bit alone. That the resources we can normally count on, or that we're supposed to be able to count on, whether it's HR weren't available to me, I couldn't open an investigation.

CheeTung Leong: It doesn't sound like something that's very Uncommon. So in your experience, do you see this a lot in other organizations like, many of our listeners are in HR. Do you think they could be going through something like this as well?

Kim Williams: I know just from years of working in this field on. Private chats, private groups that, I've heard many heartbreaking stories from folks who work in HR that genuinely care about people, but aren't empowered in their positions. Or I think a lot of people don't realize they're dealing with a lot of retaliation themselves where, they're trying to advocate for themselves or others.

CheeTung Leong: Sometimes it's, I can imagine that you step into a toxic environment, not intentionally, obviously, but over time, your first 30, 60, 90 days, you start, it starts creeping up on you that maybe this is not the right kind of place.

What do you normally see? When it comes to responding to such an environment,

Kim Williams: I do think folks see it pretty quickly.

I think we all see it pretty quickly. I think, what comes next can vary from person to person. And I think, from years of talking to folks where they felt like they weren't supported from HR and I follow behind somebody who had been, with my organization for a number of years who I know that this individual knew what was going on and just opted to ignore it.

And I've dealt with a number of high risk situations where I absolutely felt like I was putting my head on a chopping block. But for me, if I'm in the room and I know something's wrong and I don't say something, I just can't live with that. We're now trading my integrity and. That's more painful for me personally than, what may happen with my job.

CheeTung Leong: I can imagine that must be really difficult to do. Especially if you're new to the role and, you realize, Oh no, this is not the right kind of place for me. Once you make that realization? Whether it's early in the job or whether, a new boss has just come in and you realize there's a little bit of that toxicity.

What do you recommend is the first thing that should be done for HR?

Kim Williams: As best you can, small conversations are easier than big conversations.

And afterwards, I went and knocked on the door and just right off the bat saying, hey, I think we need to have a conversation about this. And kept myself just we're talking about the weather. I'm not going to try and trigger this person or make this more charge than it has to be. But. I'm sending a million signals in that moment of this is who I am, this is what I stand for and I'm not going to look the other way in these kinds of environments and just setting that boundary or that marker.

CheeTung Leong: And how did that leader respond

in that situation?

Kim Williams: They were shocked and sad and very apologetic. That's not normal. I would say more times than not, I'm dealing with anger or I'm dealing with folks who aren't used to being challenged.

But I can say in that instance, that individual was very remorseful.

There's this wall that just goes up and says, what do you mean I'm being how have you dealt with that?

Kim Williams: In HR, we, we all know we have to deliver a lot of bad news, and it just depends on who you're dealing with, and obviously it's a different dynamic when, say.

You're telling an employee who may be terminated, who's not your shop, who's not someone that you're really having to engage with on a regular basis. It's a low, lower risk environment. It may be very uncomfortable for everyone. But, when you're managing up, it does get more complicated and it can feel more intense.

And I have had situations with, people have threatened my jobs, or they've threatened to come after me, or all kinds of things that were absolutely retaliatory. And I think, bottom line, in either case, it's still an inside job. And when I wake up that morning and I know that's going to have to happen that day, I'm listening to music that puts me in a good frame of mind.

I'll keep things even. I'll deliver whatever news that I have to say. And then I just go quiet and I just observe. And then if somebody is being really intense or emotional, I continue to stare at them. I let them spool out. And then when they're done, I say, okay, would you like to talk about next steps?

CheeTung Leong: I'm just picking up on one of the things that you mentioned earlier, where most of the time, the leader already knows what this is going to be about. And yet they're defensive and upset and getting mad at you for calling it out. Have you seen cases where you've successfully managed to take them from that frame of mind to one where they're like, okay, I get it now, I'm going to moderate my behavior. I need to keep this under control.

I try to always, in every conversation, protect people's dignity, even in moments where they may not be protecting it themselves. , by holding that space and not appearing judgmental it lets you move on from there in a million different ways, and so a lot of times once people spool out or calm down and they're on the other side of that kind of initial knee jerk reaction.

They can get a little bit more open and then sometimes we just have a short conversation there and then we circle back and I know that this is going to be a little bit of a process and we're going to walk through that process together and so it really just gets into ripping that bandaid off and I'm saying, look, you're being held accountable.

CheeTung Leong: In your experience, what have you found to be maybe the most common, abuses? That you'd see from executives that you've found yourself having to step in and run an intervention.

Kim Williams: A lot of it comes with unconscious bias. And I think these get into really deep spaces about who am I.

And so if you're calling attention to something that is racist, is sexist, is some of these things that can be very triggering for folks who want to believe that they're good people, or they may have something in mind. When they think about those words and they don't want to be associated with that. And so you'll, it will draw out a lot of knee jerk reactions.

CheeTung Leong: When do you find that you have to step in? When you draw the line on when you feel HR needs to actually step in.

Kim Williams: Anytime there's an injury, quite frankly, like I would have stepped in. In that instance, if an employee would have come to me, I would have felt an obligation to go and reach out to that leader.

And I see it as. A big part of our job is like head of HR is to also be the safe space for the leaders. It can be very lonely in these jobs. A lot of times they aren't getting feedback, or they're trying to grapple with things that they feel like they can't discuss with others. And giving them that very silent space where they know they can come to you to work out issues without it.

Leaving the room is also really important. I definitely would reach out and say, I think we need to chat about this. Break this down. Tell me, what was your side of this? Why do you think that was necessary? And then start asking them probing questions like, would you like to work for someone who did this for you or in a lot of times they have, and that's why they think it's okay.

CheeTung Leong: I wish I had more HR leaders like you in those days. What do you think, how do you think HR can prepare themselves for these conversations? Because typically once a, once an incident happens, it becomes a little bit of incident management response. But are there anything, are there any things that HR can do proactively?

To, to either prevent these things or to prepare better for when they do happen.

Kim Williams: You should be building relationships all the time. Pre pandemic. I used to have a thing about coffee. If I started with a new organization, I'd go to every leader and I'd invite them to coffee and I used to love to walk.

And in particular, I think, all the way up to the top of your organization, engaging as frequently as you can, earning that trust, creating that buy in and, I'm so fortunate now to work for an organization where I do have that trust of the CEO. So the second I get a phone call where there has been, any type of injury at all, I already know I have the support so I can reach out to that individual and say, Okay, we need to talk about this.

Kim Williams: It's the fear not framework is what I've come up with.

F being the easiest of this acronym to remember. It's fear, and I think it's. It's terribly important to acknowledge this. Anything that is getting into, a threat to your job, particularly at the higher levels that you get into can feel almost downright life threatening.

And by going in and acknowledging that and treating it like the serious event it is. I think you give yourself permission for self care for support for things like that, which you're really going to need. And then, he is really looking at the entire story. Sometimes. When we're dealing with employee relations or discipline issues, it could just be, you actually have a really good person who's just gone through some private issue that they need a little bit more support for and you're able to get to the bottom of it entirely.

So just make sure you're constantly tracking on that. A and fear not is to articulate your story. Part of the reason why it's great to have a log like that is because It can help you take the emotion out of it, and it can be very difficult to do that in moments where we are afraid, or we're intimidated, or we're worried about backlash or retaliation.

And the more we can show up with calm, no matter what we feel like on the inside and clearly articulate that, Hey, something pretty serious has happened. This is a violation of our policy. This is something that we've addressed in other cases, and then it's impacting me, can really go a long way in terms of how people respond to you.

But making sure that you're mentally setting yourself up for a potentially long process. And so that's fear. And then the not piece is, in for really navigating the investigation, making sure that you're keeping those logs because it can be incredibly helpful in terms of communicating what you need to the investigator, allowing them to move on to other individuals to substantiate your allegations and to back up your story.

A lot of organizations are incentivized for liability purposes to try and downplay the amount of damage as much as possible. And so you really want to protect yourself, and this is usually the point where you may want to even look at engaging with an attorney, which I've done in order to make sure that you're covered if something like this happens.

And then last is to talk about this. A lot of folks when they set a lot of agreements like this, when you're dealing with executive abuse, there can be situations with NDAs. I've signed NDAs. But nevertheless, I think that there's ways to break apart the specifics of your particular and, circumstances with the general climate that's out there.

Millions of people have been affected by this, and the more we talk about how to really engage in this space the better off I think we all are.

Yeah, thank you. I think one of the things about your approach that I really admire actually is because it's how you're both. quite empathetic, not just to the victim that has suffered the abuse, but also to the executive who is obviously coming from a place that, that we need to empathize with before we can connect with them and lead them in a different direction.

And at the same time, that strength that you bring to the table and holding that space for the organization, for the individual and for the executive. I think that's something that we all could learn something from from today's lesson. So thank you so much for sharing. If people want to find you to learn more about your experiences in this area, what's the best way for them to do

Gen Z is just amazing. And I tell folks that you may just be one viral TikTok video away from accountability because they'll post about you, but then they'll also go on LinkedIn, tag you, talk about what a nightmare you were and and, it's really a game changer, but I'm also seeing a lot of an incredible women executives of color getting in there and really changing the environment for better.

And, all this stuff was kept in place because of silence. And the more we challenge that I think the better workplaces are for everybody.

CheeTung Leong: That's great. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today, Kim. And for those of you who are listening, I hope you enjoyed the show. Make sure you drop us a review and tune in next time on the HR impact show

I'm CT and I've been your host. Thank you so much for listening.