In episode 130 of the Enter the Bible podcast, co-hosts Kathryn Schifferdecker and Katie Langston discuss the audience-submitted question, "What about Bible verses used to justify slavery, corporal punishment, domestic violence??" with guest Dr. Jennifer Kaalund.

Jennifer T. Kaalund is an Assistant Professor of Religious Studies at Iona College in New Rochelle, New York. She received her Ph.D. from The Theological School at Drew University in New Testament and Early Christianity. Her dissertation, “Dislocating Diaspora: Reading Hebrews and 1 Peter with the African American Great Migration,” explores the constructed and contested Christian/Jewish identities in Hebrews and 1 Peter through the lens of the “New Negro,” a similarly vulnerable identity formed during the Great Migration in the early twentieth century. Her research interests include Christian Scriptures, African American history and culture, the Bible in popular culture, and the study of early Christianity in its Roman imperial context with a focus on womanist hermeneutics and postcolonial and cultural studies.

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Stepping Up to Supervision

Katie Langston: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Enter the Bible podcast, where you can get answers, or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible but were afraid to ask. I'm Katie Langston .

Kathryn Schifferdecker: And I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker, and we have as our guest today a returning guest because she was so brilliant and wise last time, Professor Jennifer Kaaland, who is associate professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. Thank you so much again for being with us, for coming back, Jennifer.

Jennifer Kaalund: Thank you so much for having me. And you both are so gracious and kind, so.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Well, uh, we we're so happy to have you. Uh, we have a question from a listener, um, that asks about the Bible. Go figure. Um, they they say hi. I'm curious how you approach Bible verses that don't uphold justice, i.e. Bble verses that have been used to justify slavery, corporal punishment of children, domestic violence, etc. So, uh, um, yeah, it's an important question because of course we want to uphold justice. So, um, what how would you yeah, how would you how would you approach that question? Jennifer, what would you say to our listeners?

Jennifer Kaalund: Yeah, I mean, um, I would approach those texts, um, the same way I think we should approach most scriptures that we're reading, like there are two important things or questions that we could ask in terms of the text. And that's one is context, right. Um, what is going on in this text? When was this written? Who is this written to? Like those kind of questions I think are really important to provide some perspective, um, around why this text might make meaning at the time it was written, but also why it might make meaning for us. And then you can kind of ask those same questions for yourself in terms of what are you bringing to the text? How do you define justice? Because what looks like justice for one, may not necessarily look like justice for someone else. Right. And so, um, I think those are kind of important frameworks to have as we're approaching the text. Now, that is not to dismiss what we already know to be true about the biblical text itself. Are there moments in the text where we will see, witness, read about violence? Absolutely. Are there moments in the text, well, where the Bible clearly states, um, for slave, uh, slaves to obey their masters? Yes, yes, we have read that, right? But I think what's equally as important is that we understand, um, is this part of the Pauline tradition, as in, did Paul write this Paul's self? And does that matter to how we understand the interpretation of this text? That might be one question to answer or ask. Another one might be, well, if you read this alongside Aristotle's Politics and we find the same exact kind of household codes, then how does that expand our context of understanding of what's going on in the ancient community? So in Aristotle, Aristotle is arguing that if you have an orderly family, then you'll have an orderly society. Hmm. So when I read this, what does he mean by that? Yes.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Sorry what does Aristotle mean by an orderly household? Orderly family .

Jennifer Kaalund: Orderly household is the the the husband is in charge, oversees the wife and the child. That literally it is a reflection of the household codes that we find in the New Testament texts that we see in Colossians, Ephesians, right in the most extreme form, complete forms, I should say. But you also see it in first Peter, um, in Titus and Timothy as well, where it's: wives obey husbands, slaves obey masters, children obey parents. This kind of power dynamics within households really was about creating an orderly society. So how do we keep things functioning in a way in which things can progress? It is that we have order, and order means in this particular case, the Hellenistic influence of the text is telling us this is one way, this is one model, right, for how we can have order, but we see another model in Galatians 3:28, right where there is this, there is no distinction. There is not male or female, enslaved or free. We are all one in Christ, is what Paul is writing in Galatians. And so that is why I think context is important, um, for helping us to better understand what these texts might be saying at the time and also to us. And so for me says, oh, this writer wants us to think about creating order in society. Right? How do how do we do that? Um, and they're using the, the Aristotelian model to think about how we do that in the, you know, in our Christian community. Um, right? Um, and so what we might read as a directive. As in, slaves should obey. Um is actually more of an exemplar of, in this society, at this time, this is how we saw order, you know, or this is a way in which we could establish order. And another thing it might be telling us is that the community itself is challenging. Um, some of those things that have been seen as the way that things have always functioned, right? This is the way it has functioned. And so I need to affirm that because it's being challenged in some way. All that to say, uh, is that I don't know that we can read any of these texts as simply justifying, um, a position without asking some of those questions behind the text as well. Around the text.

Katie Langston: It's it strikes me as similar to some of the conversations that we've had on this podcast in the past. Again, you know, I think I think is really important, like. Um, you're asking the question, Jennifer: what is the text trying to do? Right? And similarly to how, you know, um, there's this, uh, kind of like 19th century, 20 early 20th century, like American impulse to try to read the whole thing as, like the same. Right? Like in a sort of fundamentalist way. Um, and actually different books in the Bible are doing different things, and they're written by different people in different genres. Some are literature, some is poetry, some is history. But, you know, some of it, some isn't right and isn't intended to be taken that way. And so similarly, we reread these other texts carefully and we ask ourselves, okay, culturally speaking, what's happening? Um, you know, what is the, what is perhaps a culturally bound, um, or culturally context specific kind of text versus something that is meant to be applied, you know, at all times and in all places universally.

Jennifer Kaalund: Yes. And I think to the, you know, more immediate question of justice is that if you're reading those verses that I just mentioned, what we call the household codes, um, it may it may come across as these texts do not uphold justice. Again. Context. Right? Context is in that context. One perspective. It is very much about creating a just society. As understood from a very particular perspective. And so that is why I think it's important that why I think it's important to ask those questions. Um, it might not feel just to the child, to the enslaved, um, or to, you know, even the wives in this case. Right? But if to those who are setting the standard of creating the rules, it is. This is the intention. The intention is not to create an. It is to create a just society in that perspective, um, when it comes to violence, I think is is a bit different than what we're talking about here, right? In terms that violence should never be condoned in the ancient world or in our contemporary context. And again, I think those questions become very important for what the text is trying to do, what it's trying to teach us what the text itself is really saying versus what we might be reading into the text, or what we might be bringing with us to the text. Um, I say this to, to my children often is that I bring my personal experience into their lives, and they're not living the same, um, in the same moment that I have lived in. Right? And so their upbringing is very different than mine geographically. What I've experienced, um, what they are experiencing, and I have to caution myself right to, not to not to impose on them, um, the things that I went through, um, and I think we do that in the text often, there's a quote I put on my, uh, Intro to New Testament syllabus sometimes. And, uh, it says "We do not read the Bible the way it is. We read the Bible the way we are."

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Mm hmm.

Jennifer Kaalund: And so, um, as we're, as we're looking for justice in the, in the text, um, it leads me to ask the reader what what text are you talking about in particular? Is there some place where you're not seeing justice? How do you define justice? I think it's a great entry point into having a much larger conversation, um, about how we approach the Bible in general.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: That's really helpful. I so I teach Old Testament and, and I often tell my students that particularly in the intro Old Testament class, that reading the Bible is a cross-cultural experience. Right? Like there are. Uh, situations and circumstances and context that are not true for us and more true for those, you know, in in ancient Israel. And one example I'll just use quickly is there's a text in, uh, the Pentateuch, I'm forgetting where exactly now, I think it's, uh, I think it's in Leviticus. Uh, but it could be Deuteronomy where if a if a man rapes a woman, he has to marry her. And we read that now, and and he can't divorce her. And we read that now and we're like, oh my gosh, that's that's terrible. Right? And and it is terrible to think of that kind of violence then, uh, you know, having to live with the, the perpetrator for the rest of your life. And I'm not condoning that. Uh, and at the same time, you have to remember the context of the old, you know, ancient Israel where a woman doesn't own property, a woman doesn't, uh, isn't a basically can't live as an independent person, as a single person, and is under the authority of her father, and then or under the, uh, or, uh, her father provides for her, and then her husband provides for her. And so this is in that context, uh, protecting, at least in some sense, protecting the woman by saying, okay, you, you, you know, you violated this woman. Now you have to take care of her for the rest of your life, and you can't divorce her. Now, again, I am not condoning that. I think, um, uh, that

Katie Langston: Much better to live in a society where we're all free, right? That is, that is much better, right?

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah, but but knowing the context helps if even if you don't agree with that law, at least helps you understand the the intent of it, uh, perhaps more than just a, just an initial reading of it.

Jennifer Kaalund: And, and to know that, that because that text appears in, in our Bible isn't a justification of that action, it could be a reflection of what is happening in that society at that time. I mean, it's a reflection of what's happening in our society, the violent part of this, right, in our society as well. Right? And so, um, you know, the question of how the texts are being used to justify these behaviors is the second part of this. Right? Is right, like these texts can be used in the same way that the Bible has been used to justify slavery. It was also used to justify abolition. Right? Like the same exact text. Um, and that is where interpretation comes into play, is, you know, the same story of, of the first kind of family and, and how we conceived of, of race based upon the first family in the Scripture is the same text that was being used to say, yes, we're all connected, we're all family, we're all the same. Right? Ultimately, we are all connected. Um, and so the same exact text, I think is important for us to see, can be used to, to justify these horrific things that we as humans do, uh, but also can be used to bring about justice and liberation.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Um, would you say just a bit more? Jennifer, you you said earlier something that I think is, uh, is really profound and deserves more discussion. You said, you know, so you read these household codes that talk about wives obeying their husbands and slaves obeying their masters. But we also have texts like Galatians 3, um, uh, I'm going to read 27 and 28. "As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek. There is no longer slave or free. There is no longer male and female. For all of you are one in Christ Jesus." So can you say a bit more about like, how is that in conversation with the household codes? Or how does that help our interpretation of them?

Jennifer Kaalund: Yeah, I mean, I think it it tells us a couple of things about the early Christian community and its diversity and the issues that these communities are dealing with. Right. Um, which is why I said the, the actual even writing of the household codes in those letters could be a corrective to what was seen in Galatians. So you all understood Paul to be teaching this open and free society where everyone is equal. And, you know, those communities are saying, yeah, that's what we heard when Paul came. This is what we that's what he look, this you're reading the letter, right? We're reading Galatians. That's what he said. It's written slightly earlier than those other letters. And then the later letters, we're seeing a corrective, perhaps, for what's happening in the earlier letters. Um, and so that's what I would say, that it's this is the importance of them being in conversation, but also understanding that they're distinct communities who may be wrestling with different issues and who may be pointing to like, oh, look over there is how they function. And here it's chaos, right? It's I often look at 1 Corinthians as an example of, um, how we can read what's actually happening in this community, the fact that women are being told to not speak or to quiet down, they're being told both right? tells us what fundamentally it tells us that women were talking, it tells us women were prophesying, or else you wouldn't have to tell them not to do that. And even more, it tells you the questions that the community asks of Paul. Paul, is it okay that this is happening in our community? Is this what it means for us to be trying to live out, right, these resurrected lives? What does that mean for us? Um. As we wait for Jesus to come back. How do we live? Right? And that is part of what these texts give us. Um, and I think that's why. Right. It's important that we, um, understand them individually. Individual letters, individual books. Um, and also collectively as the overarching message. We need the gospels because otherwise Paul doesn't tell the full story. Right. So we do need that.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: So how do how do we decide which one it is. Right? Like household codes versus, uh, you know, there is no longer slave or free, no longer Jew or Greek. I know that's the million dollar question, right?

Katie Langston: Like you're begging the question.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Literally, which is why I'm asking you.

Katie Langston: Right, right, right.

Jennifer Kaalund: I mean, how I decide is, um, you know, the household codes are written much later than Galatians, right? So as you study the history of the text, uh, it comes first. So that's something to think about. Not saying that that's necessarily the reason to privilege it. Um, but it also seems to be proposing a different way of being, um, than the Hellenistic culture. And so there seems to be some sort of rub going on here. And so at the minimum, I could say there's contestation in the early Christian community about how we live in community, whether, you know, who experiences this type of freedom. Um, and we kind of repeatedly hear Paul in particular, writing about how we are free in Christ, writing about this freedom in Christ. Right? And so how do communities translate that freedom? Right. And so it could be that this community is translating that freedom in a way that all are experience, this kind of egalitarian equality, um, and that there are those who are challenging it. So I would read it as an op, like a way of being in community. That was an option in the early church. Right? Like it's not it was there were communities living this way. Um, and there were communities who clearly chose that there needed to be a different order. And then you see a very specific type of ordering that's given in, you know, you see these letters starting to get into bishops and, um, and deacons and like really ordering the way in which we worship together, not just be in community together, so.

Katie Langston: I would, one reflection that I would have too to that question, Catherine, is like a couple things. One is I think interpretation is discerned in community together over a long time. And sometimes I think in our, in our from our cultural perspective, we're very individualistic, right? We're very right now focused. That's just human, I think, to be right now focused. But it helps to sort of look back and say, you know, this book, you know, these books have been compiled over centuries, right? And have been read and interpreted and reinterpreted over millennia. Um, which is not to say that every interpretation of them has been good or not, but there's this sort of sense of it working itself out, maybe, hopefully. Um, and also that we look at the fruits, right? We look at the fruits of the interpretations as one way. And then the other thing I would say is we probably just have to be super humble about it and recognize that we're all standing from a particular vantage point in history and culturally speaking, and we should have enough humility, I think, to not assume that. We are exactly right. Right? There's going to be people. People well into the future are going to look back at us and be like, they were so messed up about this and that and people from like, if people who lived, you know, a thousand years ago saw where we were now, they'd be like, oh my gosh, what is even happening? Right? So there's this. We do, we do, we do our best. But like, we're saved by grace, right? Not by being right. And so there's this kind of holding. Holding, uh, um, with some humility, the reality that we are products of our own time and place the same way that like, these texts are and like, you know. That helps me anyway to to not be, you know, to say, well, I, I would interpret this this way. That's where I'm coming from. You know, I'm not saying this has to be the end all, be all interpretation for all time, forever and amen. But that's how I would look at it right now, coming from this particular location in, you know, history and culturally and blah, blah, blah.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: No, I think that's helpful. Thanks, Katie. Jennifer, I wonder you you had mentioned earlier, uh, that, uh, justice that you have to define justice and that justice may look different depending on one's circumstances. Can you, can you elaborate on that too like or give an example .

Jennifer Kaalund: Umm, I can try. Right. Uh, and it was, it was really thinking about what Katie said when she was like, um, kind of like we all get to be free, right? It's it's this. Which is why I ask, in terms of the question itself, what does it mean to uphold justice and for whom? Um, that justice looks very different for the enslaved community of the ancient world. I'm talking first century texts. Um, that that justice looks very different in the context of the Roman Empire. Than what justice would look like for the Roman centurion perhaps. Perhaps. And so as we're reading these texts, that's the type of complexity that I'm thinking we should be aware of. Um, when we're asking about justice and to Katie's point, and justice in the first century world, is that the same as justice in our world? Um, in our contemporary context of what we mean when we say, um, we're wanting the Bible to uphold justice, and in some cases, I think absolutely, absolutely. If we're talking about human freedom, if we're talking about love and liberation of people. Um, yes, I think those can be. But I think we need to all be on the same page when we're defining those things. And I really think the heart of the question is, is how does the text justify, um, these kind of horrific, this violence, this, uh, these moments of violence in history. And, you know, the text doesn't necessarily justify it, again. Right? I think the text reflects what's happening in the ancient world. And because of that, um, we have used the text to say, see, there was slavery back in this time, so surely there should be slavery now. But the text doesn't tell us that, right? That it has to happen into perpetuity. It's just a reflection of what was happening in that society at the time. Um, and so in that way, we can't, you know, I think we have to ask those questions that I mentioned at the beginning to say, well, yeah, that was what was happening. But that doesn't mean that that in our society today that the text is justifying it. Um, those aren't the same.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: It's describing it, perhaps.

Jennifer Kaalund: Exactly.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: It's descriptive.

Jennifer Kaalund: Exactly.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: It's not prescriptive. Right. It's it's describing what was or what that context, historical context was. It's not saying that's what it should be forever and ever.

Jennifer Kaalund: Right. And the reason I like to introduce Galatians 3:28 and into the conversation when I see kind of, uh, at least what sounds to me like the household codes underlying the question a bit there. Um, is, is that there are alternative ways of thinking about community in the ancient world, which hopefully gives us in our contemporary world, imaginative ways of thinking about community. How can we imagine a more free society? How can we imagine a more just society, even if that's not what we're living in? How can we imagine something differently? And I think we see that when we see these variances in the text, too.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah, that's really helpful. And I think it's important to note that just historically speaking, the church, the early church had a lot of kind of, uh, people at the margins of society. Right? Um, uh, enslaved people, women, poor people. Right. That that this message of freedom, this message of oneness in Christ, of being, uh, you know, all of you are one in Christ Jesus. All of you have clothed yourselves with Christ. This is a a really radical message of belonging and of meaning, right? That that in a society where these folks were not, uh, the powerful ones and were not the valued ones, right? In Christ, you are a son and daughter of God, right? That's a really radical and liberating message.

Jennifer Kaalund: Um, and I would argue it is still today, right? For those of us who exist on the margin, who, you know, aren't at the center of what is seen as wealth and power in this society, it's a liberating message to think that we are sons and daughters and children of God.

Kathryn Schifferdecker: Yeah, yeah. Amen. Well that seems that seems like a good place to end. Uh, thank you to our listener for that question. And thank you again so much, Jennifer, for joining us, for being willing to join us again. And we threw some hard questions at you this time around. We really appreciate, really appreciate your faithfulness. Yeah. We appreciate your faithfulness and your insight and your and your just your, uh, knowledge about about Scripture. So thank you so much. Uh, and thank you to those who are listening or watching this podcast. We ask you to to rate and review us on YouTube and on Apple and, and, you know, uh, share, share the podcast with a friend. If you, uh, want to find out more, uh, please go to Enter the Bible. org where there are lots of other podcasts and videos and blog posts and, uh, information about Scripture, in-depth study of all the biblical books. Uh, and uh, just just take advantage of that free resource from us here at Luther Seminary. And, uh, thank you for listening. Uh, please share it with a friend. Until next time.