In this episode of Your Practice Mastered Podcast, we sit down with Mike Agugliaro, a successful entrepreneur who has exited two businesses and now helps others achieve their potential.

Mike started his career as an electrician and grew a $32 million/year home services business, which a private equity company acquired in 2017. He then built a prominent training organization coaching over 1000 business owners and 20000 people in the service industry, exiting in 2020.

As the founder of FuDog Group, a high-level training organization, Mike teaches peak performance secrets to help people elevate every area of their lives. He is an expert at creating life, business and wealth by design, specializing in helping rebel and renegade business owners.

In this episode, Mike shares his journey, the pivotal moments that sparked his transformation, and actionable insights on shifting your mindset for exponential growth.

Tune in to learn how to break boundaries, change your identity, and design a life of freedom and prosperity from a Jinsei Ryu Budo black belt, author of over 28 books, and sought-after expert on scaling and selling companies. Don't miss it! 

Our channel offers expert advice on law firms, entrepreneurship, and success strategies. Hit "Like" and subscribe to stay updated with our latest content.

Let’s Chat About Growing Your Law Firm. 

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Introduction and Guest Welcome 


MPS: Hey, Law Firm Owner. Welcome to the Your Practice Mastered Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm MPS. 


And then from there was able to morph over to figure out how to help people get the most out of themselves and how to grow their businesses. In his next iteration. So I'm excited to have this conversation with our good buddy, Mike, Mike, welcome to the show. 


Mike Agugliario: Hey everybody. I'm super honored and excited to be here and let's get started. 


MPS: Yeah. 


Mike's Tattoo and Artistic Background 


MPS: Well, hey, Mike, we like to kick things off with a bit of an icebreaker around here. So what's something that maybe not everyone knows about you? 


Mike Agugliario: I have a lot of tattoos, but what most people don't know is I've tattooed a whole bunch of tattoos on myself. 


MPS: Wow. 


Mike Agugliario: Yeah, I'm actually, I've been a tattoo artist for probably over 28 years and people don't know that. I don't do it regularly. I do it every blue moon when my son, man. threatens me enough or begs me enough to do it. 


Richard James: So were you, you like, dude, is that an interest of yours that as a young age and you've always been artistic, 


Mike Agugliario: You know, my dad being big old school Italian, he had an Eagle tattoo like this one, an Eagle on his arm, and he had another thing that had mom and dad on it. So I grew up seeing a tattoo on his arm. Which normally if you have a parent that's tattooed, you're probably going to get tattooed. And I had an amazing guy, Richard, that was tattooing me. 


He was actually probably shouldn't have been tattooing me. I was probably 16 years old. And but I said, Oh yeah, I'm 20 years old. Cause I had a beard at 16 and he passed away. He passed away. And I was then trying to find other tattoo people. Most of the tattoos back then, I mean, I'm level, level 54 now, but it's different today. 


And that brought me into the world of tattoo. And I couldn't find somebody. So I said, you know what, I'll learn how to tattoo myself and solve this. 


Mike's Sobriety and Lifestyle Choices 


Richard James: you know, I bet you some people have a struggle, Mike MPS with this idea of, of Mike never had a drink or not a drug, but a drink in his life. That's a bit like, that's a, You know, like that's an unusual one, right? I mean, I, drugs I get, but the drink side, it's like, feels like a social thing. Like you just decided never to do that. I'm like, 


Like I can't wait till we talk about that. But I had a choice. I went to a vocational school. I mean, 99 of the people were like doing cocaine and drinking at 14 years old. And I really wanted to grab a path and improve the world wrong and say, I'm just never going to do this. Plus I do know, and I don't know, MPS, if I knew that, I don't know if I knew this back then, but I do have an addicted behavior. 


What that means is I can't go golf because if I golf, I have to become the best in the world at it. Okay. So I knew young, like if I did drink, I'm not going to be the guy that drinks a little, I'm going to master drinking. So I knew my own, you know, limitations and I never did drugs, never smoked cigarettes, never drank any alcohol and I'm level 54. 


MPS: And never mind the health benefits there, I would say that comes from being very self-aware which is, quite the skill to have. So, props to you. Level 54, no alcohol, no drugs, no smoking. that is a good track record. Um, Wow. No caffeine too? 


Mike Agugliario: No caffeine, 18 years, no gluten for 18 years. Now I never drank coffee, but I used to drink caffeinated big Dunkin Donuts iced tea when I was in the field. And, now if you want to know that, like, I thought those were tough. 


I'm dairy free for a month now as an Italian, I don't know what the hell I'm doing with this one because this is like, holy mackerel. 


I'm a cheese eater. Go in the fridge, pop little mozzarella. Boom. You know, like a quick fix and an Italian. But, 


Richard James: he's got it. You got to eat. Grandpa's pizza anymore or known as pizza anymore. Not a regular pizza. You remember 


MPS: Hey, it's better though. 


Richard James: Yeah, it is better. Yeah, no, no cheese on it. Just crust and sauce 


Mike Agugliario: It's horrible. my daughter and my wife made these, we make this pizza on like chicken. crust, which you like ground up chicken and make it. And there's no dairy on it for me. So she's like, what do you put on? I'm like, this sounds horrible. I had to put so many mushrooms and vegetables to convince myself there's cheese underneath of it. 


But look, I want to live forever or as long as I can. 


Longevity and Health Aspirations 


MPS: I love it. the longevity aspirations are great. Have you ever, I think, is it Ben Johnson who, who's on like the biohack journey, who does like all the crazy biohacks and he's reversed his biological age by, I don't remember, what do I think he's like 47 and his biological or how his body's age is like 25, something like that. 


So I put double focus in it and I reversed it by a decade now. So it says I'm level 43 and. you know, I'm level 54 and that's the goal, right? If I could keep going back now, the rest of it's not showing it like me and me and Richard, they're like, you know, this is wisdom, but inside is longevity, right? 


MPS: Exactly. 


It is that that's where it matters most inside. Well, that's very fascinating to me. I always find the longevity conversation super cool. But I do want to learn a little bit more about the journey. So you're talking there a bit about the struggles and just couldn't wait to get to Saturday. Walk us through that What was that? Well, you know, 


Mike's Journey as an Electrician 


I was like, these guys are ridiculous. And I thought electricity that can kill you if you make a mistake. And for some reason, maybe I had some kind of death wish. I don't know. And, but I started working for people and I got to tell you something, I thought all my bosses were idiots. So what do you do when you think your boss is an idiot? 


You quit and start your own company to come to the reality. When you look in the mirror, you're becoming an idiot, just like your boss was. That's what happened. I was like, I'm having the same struggles. I thought my boss, like I was like, you should hire like this and do that. And then there I am having all the same problems. 


Turning Points and Business Struggles 


Mike Agugliario: And if you want me to tell you what clicked, I could tell because maybe it's the turning point for someone listening to this that goes, I'm ready for a turning point or I feel, should I share that? 


Richard James: you should but we have to just earmark this alonzo we now have the headline right There is very little difference between being an electrician and being an attorney. That is the headline of this podcast. No question Right. But yes, Mike, I apps and I, by the way, I completely agree with you. All of our members, when they first start any one of our events have to raise the right hand and say, my business is not different from yours. 


And so we're on the same page there, but, yeah, please share what that turning point was. 


But really that's how it felt for me. And maybe a bunch of you, like it is morning to night, no turn off. And for me it was seven days a week for a long time until my son's born and my son is born and oh my goodness I didn't know it was going to be a son. I've always wanted every child, me and my wife. 


This gliding chair, I can't even figure it out, but I put it together and I got it and I was sitting, and it must've been. 10 or 11 o'clock at night. And Richard, I sit back like this and I just start crying and crying and crying. And I'm saying, I had a vision. I'm going to be like my dad. Now I love my dad. 


He passed in November, my dad. And, but he worked so hard for us. He missed so many things and I was crying and like life was going like, I was like seeing my son grow up and me missing this stuff. And I said, this has to change. And from there it put me on a quest. Now I'm a martial artist. There's something a lot of people don't know. 


The second one was I had a business partner and he came in one day and this was all happening at the same time. He came in one day and he says, listen, I'm out. Now back then I was still working out of a truck, climbing in attics, crawl spaces, sniffing cat crap in people's litter boxes. And when he said, Richard, I'm out. 


I said, Oh, I'll see you tomorrow. Because we used to eat, the lunch truck used to pull. You guys know lunch truck? And this person would go, Hey, hey, come here, come here. My wife made you empanadas. And he would pull this little, you know, tin foil thing out that his wife made for me and my partner. And I'm in car hearts and you know, my hands are soft now. 


He's like, I'm burnt out. I'm fatigued. I'm done. And I said, well, if you're done, I'm done too. But why don't we do this? We just must not know what to do. So we took a couple of days. We came back and I had a plan. I had a plan. Now back then guys. I didn't think of best practice organization or something like what you guys do for attorneys today. 


Let's just face it. You, I know you guys long enough and everybody listening, they didn't tell me to say anything. I believe in what they're doing or I would not be on this show. I don't, this is not what I do full time. 


The Concept of Freedom and Paying to Play 


Mike Agugliario: When you get the right things to do at the right time, you speed up life to freedom, to freedom. 


That's freedom And so when he said that we came back and I had I built a plan thinking my plans the plan But then I said what if someone's got a better plan and I went and searched out some of the greatest gurus I pulled out my American Express card. Scary, scary everyone. And I saw American Express the other day. 


I called them. They're like, well, first they put me on this automated machine. I hope we're not going to talk about AI because I get very cranked up, but they put me on this automated machine. And then eventually after screaming at them for five minutes, representative, they say, thank you for the 35 years. 


If I had a heart problem, I would not go on ChatGPT or Google and say, cut here, pull this out, pump here, put a pig's heart in. I wouldn't. I'd get the best in the world to either tell me what to do or do it for me. So let me stop there. Cause you guys know I could go on for a long time, but I hope everybody listening is saying, hang on. 


I'm at that place and getting hope or I'm past that place and I'm getting motivated. 


Richard James: Well, you know, before Michael had met you and I said, we should have you on the show. He's like, Michael's like, well, what do you think, you know, Mike, we'll talk about. And I said, all we got to do is crank Mike in the right direction. And we won't have to say another word because it's just gold that pours out of his mouth and both lessons and stories. 


The difference is when I was 19 years old and they gave me an American Express card, I went to the Bahamas on it and, and I, I would charge all the meals with my buddies and they would give me their cash. That's how I was able to go to the Bahamas. But American Express doesn't mind cause they got paid. 


but I minded from the interest payments there for a minute. Anyway that was back. By the way, when American Express had an Optima card and you could actually pay payments on American Express. So not that we're giving any inside business there, but let's, you know, this whole idea that there's this iron welded moment in which you're going to realize a change. 


Now, some people, interestingly enough, maybe listening to this. And they haven't had that moment yet. Like it's still going on for them. They're still in the middle of the story. They haven't had that aha moment. Maybe they haven't had their first child or they didn't. It didn't have that effect on them. 


And our goal is not get to get them to pay to play. And if they want to pay to play, great. Go, hire whoever you think you're going to most relate to, but really was to give them some inspiration and some hope to know that there's light at the end of the tunnel, even if they don't see it. Right this very second. 


And so when you started down that journey and you decided to pay and play, it wasn't like, maybe I'm wrong, Mike, but it wasn't instantaneous fix. Was it? 


So you're, paying a no, nothing's instantaneous. 


Identity Shifts and Wealth Investing 


Mike Agugliario: Everything comes at the moment you make a decision that you want to shift your identity. There's two, there's a couple of ways your identity shifts. And let me talk about this a minute. one way is forced identity. Okay. Listen, your mom passes, your dad, Pat, you forced identity. 


You, you change like that. A matter of fact, I mean, I love my dad has spent so much time. I learned so many things from him. I didn't realize how men, how much wisdom came after he passed than when he was even here. Cause I started to think about it. So everybody grieves different. But when my dad passed, I said, wow, how many, and I referenced things he does. 


If your company was a hundred million dollars, would you be behaving this way? Acting this way, making a decision. And they said, no. I said, okay, well, so why don't we act like that to make decisions? It's the difference between the transition. Here's what everybody tries to do. They go from a worker and then they say, well, I don't want to work for that idiot. 


I'll go be my own boss. So they become a boss. Then they end up in a world where people say, you don't be a boss, be an operator. And most people stop there. I said, here's what I want everybody to do. And everybody grab a pen and write this down. I want everybody to be a wealth investor. Okay. Wait a minute. 


I just met a woman down the beach. 


A Conversation with a 90-Year-Old Woman 


Mike Agugliario: Cause I live at the Jersey shore and this woman's 90, she's 90 years old. Get this your son get like, he probably, me and you will relate. He's going to be like, what's going on. So I'm talking to a woman and anytime I meet somebody of any age older than me, I'm curious. I say, tell me about the past. 


what was happening in the past that you're thinking today? This is ridiculous. She goes, let me tell you something. This, elderly moment, sharp. She says, we didn't have cars. We didn't have gasoline. I'm sitting here going, you're mad. You got a flat tire. Do you realize there was a point? There wasn't even a car, but it goes to the identity thing, right? 


The Power of Changing Your Identity 


Richard James: That's huge. I mean, yeah. MPS, why don't you pivot into where we want to go with the exponential growth? 


MPS: Yeah, so by the way, I think that lesson was excellent and really, really powerful. 


Tactical Shifts for Business Growth 


MPS: But from a tactical perspective, that is tactical, but from a tactical perspective, what was maybe the one to two shifts you made at that point in your business that really allowed you to take the next step? 


Mike Agugliario: Yeah. Awesome. This is tactical. If you look at it as you have to question yourself, When you look in the mirror tomorrow morning, do you say to yourself, I'm worthy of more money. I'm worthy of a bigger company. I'm where that's tactical. And if you don't think you're worthy, you can't go to step two, step two. 


Overcoming Personal Barriers 


Mike Agugliario: So the next tactical thing, one, am I worthy to what shames, guilts, and traumas do I have? Number three, everybody needs, you go to school. And I would imagine a lot of people in your field, they went to school to get a degree because someone went before. 


Learning from Mentors and Role Models 


Mike Agugliario: Even Luke Skywalker needed Yoda. He needed to say, and even when Luke Skywalker sat there and was, remember that one scene in Star Wars, he can't get the ship and then Yoda, right? 


I could do it. So another tactical thing, look at people who did it, know you're worthy to do it. 


Reverse Engineering Success 


Mike Agugliario: And then everything is reverse engineering. Everything's a math formula. This world's a math formula. This earth's a math, everything's a math formula. And I hate to say it's not rocket science because when you don't know it, it is rocket science. 


But when you're around people like you get, you guys are marketers. Like when you're around a marketer, like, it's like, Hey, how do I get, you know, the right lead? Who's the right avatar who's ready to say yes at the right time. So as I started learning and I just share, oh my goodness, me and my wife, we bike ride or walk three times a day. 


Building Incrementally 


Mike Agugliario: Everybody that's listening, just build the next thing. That's all just the next thing. Stop acting like you have to build this monster. And I know it. Let me give you one more. If it's okay. Tactical. 


The Comparison Effect 


Mike Agugliario: Stop, stop having this feeling of this comparison effect in all groups. There's a legend and there's a beginner and the cool thing is actually not the legend. 


The people that had the biggest companies, it was impressive. The people who improved a little thing tomorrow. So let me pause there and tell me where to go. 


Richard James: Well, look, you know, 


Entrepreneurial Mindset in Law 


Richard James: First and foremost this whole idea of not worthy of, so to illustrate the point I'm about to make, I went, And taught virtually a class at a, at a law school invited by a client of ours and asked me to come in and teach this class. and, you know, to get everybody kind of warmed up, I, had some questions. 


And one of the questions I asked was, Hey, how many people here in the classroom is 25, 30 people? how many see yourself as entrepreneurs? Not a Not a single hand went up and I talk a little bit more then I came back. And I said, so by the way, how many of you expect at some point in your career that you're going to have to go hang your own shingle? 


So it's this technician mindset, right? They're going to be a lawyer. They're just going to make more money being a lawyer. if they open up their own firm, rather than being paid a salary, By somebody else. And a lot of them still feel that way. And they're, passionate about the law and what their law does for their clients and how it helps them. 


And they've got great mindset, except they now own this business that they don't have a lot of acumen in. And so I don't know, maybe, maybe you could speak to this idea of, of moving from the, you know, the tactician over to being the business owner. 


Changing the Business Formula 


Richard James: Cause speaking of formulas, mathematical or otherwise, I've started to teach this principle. I'm trying to put it in a way that lawyers can start to understand. 


He said it used to be. Gross revenues minus expenses equals profits. and then he said, well, that's not right. Cause that means the owner gets paid last. What we got to do is change the formula. It's got to be gross revenues minus profits equals expenses. So you spend your expenses after you take out your profit. 


And I thought, okay, we got to do the same thing with the mentality of the attorney, because they've got it like juxtaposed. In other words, what they do is all the working hours, they're willing to work whatever they are in the course of their life. day, week, whatever. What they do is they do all the legal work and client work first. 


And then with whatever's left, they work on the business, on the marketing, on the sales, on the systems. And what I'm asking them to do is take all the, just change the formula, take all the hours they're willing to work in the course of a day or a week or whatever, and let's change the formula. Let's, peel out some time and work on the business, on the marketing, on the systems, on the sales, and then what's, what's left we'll work on the legal stuff. 


Mike Agugliario: Yeah same thing. And I helped a lot. I mean, I coached, 


My coaching company. I coached over a thousand business owners had over 20,000 trades people come through my training. So I really understand. say, understand the makeup of a human. Who's wants to be a business owner, but stuck in the physical skill and look, all of us have been stuck there, there too. 


Scaling a Service Company 


You mean I don't have to go do it. There's people better than me. And I, a lot of people said, how'd you scale your company, your service company? I said, I didn't need the very best. I needed them to be 80 better than everyone else in the world. That's it. And so you do have to get humble and your identity has to move in there because it makes sense. 


Now, me being a trades guy, I had to go out there and physically do work, which I tore the ligaments in my ankle one time. And You ever noticed like, 


There's no disability for the business owner, just for everybody else, which I'm like, well, how does that work in the world? So I have a, like a cast on my leg and I put a plastic bag over it and duct tape it. 


But it also turned to me and say, wait a second, how do I get not more, get different. I want everybody to write this phrase now. Write this down. I promise it's worth it. If you're driving, pull over and stop. I started to ask myself one question. If there was a way I could do this better or different, what would it look like? 


If there was a way I could be an owner of my law practice, better or different, what does it look like? Now, I'm probably going to frustrate some of the law people right now, so please don't be offended. I remember probably 25 years ago. an attorney friend of mine, I said to him, we were comparing, what do you do? 


I was like, How much money do you make? And I'm thinking he's going to say 400,000 500,000 And he says, well, I'm doing okay. I made 85,000 I went, and I like choked him in it. Cause I'm like, Oh my God, I don't want to piss my friend off. I'm like, and then I went home and told my wife, babe, I make more than attorneys. 


I'm a fighter for the universe because I'm a fighter for business owners. Cause it's. We don't have economic problems for no reason. If you want to change the economy, you got to change the thinking of every small business owner. We are the catalyst of destruction or prosperity. So I shared that because sometimes I think about, and that's happened. 


Hey, attorneys and stuff. Don't feel bad. It happened with a guy that was a doctor too. Same thing, same story. A So I'm blown away by this, but let's dig into another question cause I want to make sure I'm given value and I want them to write stuff down and ask questions and, take action. I want this episode to change their life. 


Mike Agugliario: I am I got so many things got me fired up. I am a lover of people and a lover of life. This is a thrill for me just to be here. I know you a little bit, but I know your dad a while now. 


Family Dynamics in Business 


Mike Agugliario: And uh, one of them is my son's in our business, Fudog He's 25. he does like 40 coaching calls a week. He's one of the top. 


I'll throw him against any business person. He's He's helped guide two people to become decamillionaires in the last six months and it's a thrill. My beautiful wife is a partner of ours of mine. I've never had her as a business partner, the other company. So there's a son navigation, which Richard, this is great. 


Here's how my sons our calls go. Hey Michael. Hey, what's up? This is dad speaking. Hey son, what are you doing? You going shooting? Yeah. Yeah. Hey Michael. Yeah, dad. This is boss speaking. We need to talk about this and this. And so my wife and I are always telling our son, Hey, this is mom. This is your boss. 


Excitement and Future Plans 


Mike Agugliario: The other thing is, look, the coaching company I sold and the company I have today we have now people that I've influenced, impact and helped over 70 of them have sold their company in the last 36 months, 70. 


And over 90 of them have become decamillionaire And those of you listening, if you don't know what decamillionaire look it up cause I want you to write it on your identity sheet. And, but like, it's not about the money they made. It's changed generations now. Some of them that, you know, maybe couldn't afford medical, they give to charities more. 


Let's do it. Like our life is so incredible with that. And then the other thing is my daughter she's just doing incredible, amazing, and she's went through some of her own stuff and she's come out the other end and she's maturing this other level. So look, family side's incredible. On the business side we have FuDog group where we do some cool stuff and I'm building a portfolio company. 


I haven't done it. I just look because every time everybody listening, write this down. Every time you break a [00:37:00] boundary, you open a door for someone else to step into a bigger future by seeing what you did. So, you know, I love what I'm doing every day, even though my mom, every time she's really good, she guilts me. 


My mom, every time she's like, you're working too much, you don't call your mom enough. I'm like, mom, I don't work at all. So, um, thank you for asking that. And I'm passionate about robots coming in and I'm passionate about the disturbance of AI and I'm passionate about human consciousness changing. So. I'm such a lover of life. 


And I'm glad I'm on here. Cause this will outlive, you know, me and go and go someday. And hopefully somebody watches it on Mars a thousand years from now. And they say, man, those guys were pretty damn cool. You know? 


And Michael and I talk about this all the time. That's, where we're headed as well. And the idea of having the family in the business, you know, I, I've had family in my business for most of my career. have hired and fired, you know, my mother, my father, my brother, my cousin. Right. So, I mean, I've been through that and it's not fun when it goes bad. 


And when you're young and you really don't know what you're doing, I don't know if it's a great idea to hire family. Because it usually ends poorly. Now I love it. they all know how they can get in. And if they want in, they can have a seat at the table. And Michael, as I mentioned to you earlier, probably earlier in the year, he purchased 49 of our company this year. 


And, and as we went through the first half of this year, we recognized we're up a hundred percent this year over last year. that's not because of me. You and I spoke, I was a little stuck in my own mindset. I was liking golf more than I was liking work. I kind of felt like I'd made enough and I was somewhat sedimentary and Michael wanted to push, cause he's like, if I'm going to buy this, we need to go. 


And, here we are so, excited about what we've got going on here, but I'm, you know, I feel like I'm at this stage now where I get to spend, like you, I get to spend time with people. I really want to spend time with and, and you're on that list. And I just really appreciate your friendship and you willing to be here. 


If anybody wanted to learn more about you, about FuDog about just, if they wanted more of Mike in their life, how could they do that? 


Mike Agugliario: Yeah. I think, and by the way, you did something really great with your son. You named them one of the best names out there, just so you know uh, Michael, 


Mike Agugliario: yeah, my son is Michael. So I already knew you were brilliant once I knew the name. So, and everybody else listening, that's Michael you're brilliant too, but we love, we love all you. 


Go to FuDogGroup.com It's F-U-D-O-G group. com. That's a great place to check us out. Find me on Facebook, friend me. If you message me, it's going to be me. I don't have a robot responding to my private stuff. I respond to all of it myself. I don't like these to ever be a drive by. So if you feel I can help you or serve you, I'm also not here. 


After doing 500 million in companies I don't need to sell anybody anymore. If I'm a fit, it's great. If not, if I'm a solution to refer somebody, I'll do it. Anybody listen here, you already know they're in good hands with you guys. I've watched your events. I've been in your, I know the magic you guys bring. 


Giving Back and Final Thoughts 


Mike Agugliario: if anybody listening, if you have any uh, you help any battered women's shelters or veterans groups where maybe people are struggling, if you'll think of me, I will send them free books on me to help them out. 


The mind power book has helped a lot of people. And if you have battered women groups or people that are struggling with either groups of people trying to level themselves out of addiction, if you reach out to me and I have time, I will do zoom. I'll do a presentation. 100 free for them. No cost. 


So if anybody does it's part of what we do every day. I want to make sure we're a part of helping the people that are just working hard to help themselves. So thank you for allowing me to share that. 


Richard James: Well, that's strong. 


MPS: Very and we appreciate you being willing to give back and provide so much value, not only holistically, but today on the pod. So, thank you for investing the time to be here. I appreciate that. 


Mike Agugliario: Thank you. I appreciate both of you guys. 


We love doing it. So that's your way of telling us you're enjoying. 


Richard James: Well, I'm with the two Mike rock stars. So you're both rock stars. Appreciate you both. It sounds like that's the pod MPS 


MPS: That's the pod.