I was first attracted to Aleasha Bahr because of the name of her podcast, “Sales is Not a Dirty Word” and the audacious claim on her website that she teaches “Sales That Don’t Suck”.  Because so many self employed women struggle with selling, I just had to know more. Aleasha is a sales strategist that has developed her own unique approach called “The Matchmaker Sales Method,” based on the way women sell. Women, in general have a distinct advantage, because for most of us, curiosity and empathy come naturally.  

The Matchmaker method is all about fitting, not closing, and it’s a way for even the introverts, rejection sensitive and sales avoidant among us can learn to sell in a way that does not feel gross or out of alignment with our values and personality.  

Highlights of this convo:

1️⃣ Shift the Sales Paradigm: What customers truly crave is the feeling of being understood and heard. Replace pushy sales tactics with empathetic and genuine conversations to build trust.

2️⃣ Matching, Not Convincing: The matchmaker sales method emphasizes finding the perfect fit between your offering and your customer's needs. This approach not only boosts your chances of success but also ensures a positive and authentic experience.

3️⃣ Power of Self-Value: Many entrepreneurs, especially creative and empathic individuals, struggle with rejection and undervaluing their own unique talents. You don't need to change who you are– embrace your style and connect authentically.

Connect with Aleasha beyond this episode: 

Website: https://aleashabahr.com/

Podcast: https://www.podpage.com/sales-is-not-a-dirty-word/

Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/salesisnotadirtyword

Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aleashabahr/ 

One of ways you can expect to Boss Up if we work together using my 12 week Boss Up Breakthrough 1:1 signature program is to be more confident about your value, pricing and offers.  Want to know more?  Grab my Work With Me private podcast and see if we’re a fit: https://bit.ly/work-with-me-podcast

My favorite place to connect online is Linked In, click here to subscribe to my LinkedIn newsletter: https://bit.ly/TDWE-Newsletter

For the time-crunched, or impatient, here’s the TLDL version:

[00:00:48] Matchmaker sales method: no convincing, just fitting.

[00:07:51] Sales conversation: understanding, curiosity, solving problems.

[00:24:59] People often don't recognize their own talent.

[00:34:33] Empathy and communication are key in sales.

H: The number of people who are experts at what they do as coaches, consultants, independent professionals and service providers is off the charts. But what most of these individuals have in common is discomfort all the way up to avoidance. So I've invited my friend, Aleasha Bahr to join us today to talk about selling in a way that doesn't feel gross. As a matter of fact, she is the host of the podcast, Sales is Not a Dirty Word. So I'm really interested in having you share what your philosophy about sales is, because I know it's different from what most people think it is.

G: Yeah. So, I mean, there are so many things that are different about what I've uncovered works. It's not just that it doesn't feel gross, but it actually is more effective than the mainstream sales strategies so, I'm all about fitting. So I have the matchmaker sales method, if it's a fit, it's a fact, and there's no selling involved. So it really takes the pressure off of convincing somebody or feeling like you have to convince somebody to work with you. And the mainstream sales strategies out there are designed to sort of manipulate someone into saying a yes, that's sort of the only goal even if they're not a fit and it's also usually a strategy that was designed by a aggressive white man and it works really well for other aggressive white men.

But there are tons of people who aren't that and it doesn't work well for them. So saying that it does, I like to compare it to, it's like somebody showing up, let's say, this aggressive white dude and let's say he's wearing a suit that is pretty formal. Because that's just what I imagine as a sales trainer, like at the front of the room, who's like old and stuffy and he says, this outfit will look just as good on you. And you're like, no, I have a different style and I have a different body type and I have different coloring and I'm actually even a different gender.

So you would never be feel pressured to say, okay, I'm going to put it on and act like this fits me and I look just as good as you in it. But people don't have that same confidence when someone tells them this is the only way to sell and you have to do it like this. So I really, if there's anything I want people to take away from my approach to sales, it's that, you don't have to do anything that is not your style. You don't have to wear any clothes that aren't your style and you don't have to do any strategies that are not aligned or your style and you will be more successful when you don't do those things.

H: One of the things that you and I talked about Alesha in a previous conversation is that what makes someone naturally good at sales is the same thing that makes someone naturally good at providing a service, coaching, consulting, being a lawyer, being a physician, being a graphic designer. The very things that make you good at those things and able to connect with the people that you provide them to are curiosity and empathy. And yet most people don't recognize that those natural traits that many of us already have will actually help you in sales without feeling like you're selling, can you talk a little bit more about that?

G: Yeah. So there is this misconception that to be good at sales, you have to be really high energy. And extroverted and charm and smoothie smooth and have like all the right words all the time and so people put this pressure on themselves to pretend and act like somebody else. And the truth is that all anybody wants, I mean, think about you as a buyer, right? If somebody is really smooth and charming, are you like, I trust everything this person says like, probably not, but if somebody is very curious and understands you, that is much more compelling as a buyer. Because it is so rare to feel seen and heard in this world and empathy is what makes someone feel seen and heard.

It's, Hey, I know how you're feeling, or I can imagine in that situation, this is how I would feel and I like to call it authoritative empathy. And I'm so glad we're talking because you're going to get to the other side of that and I'm really excited for you and it's, you know, acknowledging what they've been through and validating it and saying, you know, you don't ever have to repeat that again. And here's why, so it's not like living in the swamp of empathy, right, it's not like, let's just talk about how terrible and frustrating and how awful all these people that burned you are. It's really about like guiding them to the other side of that experience. But feeling seen and heard is really important part of that equation because if you just talk about how they're going to get on the other side of it, it just feels like you're selling me.

H: Yeah, no, I would agree with you about how sales tends to feel because I don't know about most people. I can only speak for me that when I enter into a conversation and the person says, no, this is not a sales call, this is not a conversation. So you don't about sales, you don't have to worry about me trying to sell you, but then I could literally see their step by step agenda. And there's only one possible outcome, which is that I get out my credit card. So, and yet most people end up purchasing from folks who run a sales conversation that way, even though it feels gross to them, because you almost feel, you must feel trapped into the inevitability of that outcome so it doesn't surprise me at all.

Well, and then, you know, if it's a high ticket purchase, they have that three day rule so that they can just go quietly tell their credit card company not to run the charge. But I think one of the reasons for at least the people that I encounter that tell me, I love having my own business, I just hate having to do marketing and sales. I'm sorry, but if you are self employed, you're in marketing and sales. You have to market and sell the thing that you actually want to do. The coaching sessions you want to do, the consultation that you want to do, the speaking engagements that you want to do, the rugs that you want to make, the veterinary care you want to provide, whatever it is.

You have to accept the fact that you are also in marketing and sales, because unless you have a steady stream of customers who just happen to stumble across you and your business, it's a necessity. And I like how your approach makes it feel like I just am trying to understand a person and their problems better do empathy and curiosity and if I'm, if I'm in a position to help them with what I have to offer, why wouldn't I?

G: Yeah, absolutely. It's a lot of people get into a sales conversation and if they're the person selling, they are terrified of rejection. I mean, that's the first fear, right? This person, it's almost like they believe that the person got on the call just for the thrill of telling them no. And like that person is hoping that you have the answer to their problem because then they don't have to mess with this anymore. Like they would love nothing more than the problem to be solved so it's very much the opposite of what people are thinking. They just want to feel like, do you understand their situation, so often there's not that curiosity in a sales conversation.

The questions being asked are designed just to sell someone instead of actually understanding, like, what do you have in place and what are you trying to do? And what are your expectations and what exactly happened before and, you know, do you experience this. And those kinds of questions that are going to uncover whatever it is that makes somebody a good fit for you and allows you to say, Oh yes, this is something I see all the time with my clients and this is how we have, you know, this is usually why that happens some insight and like insight on how to solve it.

So that's kind of what I call pitch weaving, actually, it's a conversational exchange so it's definitely predicated on, on curiosity. It's really about you know, you can't every possible question cause Humans are the most unpredictable thing out there. So you need to be able to be present in the conversation and ask questions that you can tell the difference on the receiving end if it's coming from a place of, I'm really trying to understand you, or a place of this is my script and I'm trying to figure out where the pressure point is that I can push on so that you move forward.

H: Okay, I'm curious to know what you think about poking the bear right? Because a lot of coaching programs because you and I both work with some of the people we work with our coaches, a lot of the coaching programs out there tell their people, their students, their coaches to stimulate pain points, to put people in touch with their problem, whether it's their car needs to be fixed or they need to take their ex back to court for more child support, whatever it is, they are taught to stimulate that pain point, get them in touch with just how much it hurts.

Not to have a solution to their problem and then swoop in like, you know, a knight in shining armor on the white horse to say, well, it just so happens that now that you're sitting here suffering, I can make that go away. I'm curious what you think and of course I'm exaggerating because that's what I do, but I'm curious what you think about whether it's actually important to help the person recognize the discomfort of not having a solution to their problem in order to guide them towards a solution, if you have one.

G: Yeah, it's important to talk about what the issue is and how it's affected them, but I don't like to make it the entire focus of the conversation. I actually like to focus on getting to the other side of the pain more and I think it's more fun. So, with that particular strategy where it's like about digging into the pain to the point of like, okay, if you don't fix this, like what's going to happen? Like, is your wife going to leave you, your kids are going to think you're a loser and you're going to be homeless.

Like to get there, it takes a lot of energy from the salesperson and it is very draining for most people to sit there and truly make someone feel like just absolute shit and they don't like doing it. And a lot of people don't like experiencing it especially because they've experienced it before so it works really well on somebody who has a lot of like self doubt. Because it's very easy to make them just completely doubt themselves and say I'm the only thing that's going to be able to solve this for you because you've just admitted that if you don't have me like in my solution, you're going to be homeless and your wife's is going to divorce you and your kids are going to think you're a loser.

H: You're going to be down by the river basically right.

G: So let's just be clear that that's what you're choosing by saying no to me and I came from a corporate background and like, if you said this to any business owner, they would tell you to like, get fucked. Like there are like a hundred other vendors I could talk to and for you to pretend like you're the only person who provides this solution is ludicrous. So, I think it's, you know, there is a difference with a consumer and a business but the consumer, this strategy you're talking about is actually developed from life insurance when people would go door to door and make the wives imagine how horrible it would be if their husband died and how they would have no money and their kids and them would starve.

And so people have like, it's also popular in timeshares so like letting them know how they're not a man for like, you know, doing this thing for their family. Like, and you know, what is she going to think, she's going to think you're a loser. So, I mean it's been done for so long and it's a great example of something that works for a very small percent of the population and people feel so ashamed that when they implement it, it's not closing people. And it's because it's just not aligned with your personality like, if you're a kind person, it's going to feel really bad and you're going to just be exhausted at the end of it. And the commitment that you have to have for it to be successful, I mean, you have to like go through that swamp of sadness with them like and really swimming it so I don't think that's a good time.

I don't think the prospect thinks that that's a good time and often they're like sort of shamed into buying through it and that results in a lot of like guilt and refunds. And also it's a different vibe for someone like signing up with you, they're like, you shamed me into this. So you know, you're bringing on someone who's got some of like a victim mindset to who has a lot of doubt. So like, there's a lot of ripple effects that I think people like, don't consider from that. And then it's also just such a small amount of the population that's going to be convinced by it and who's good at executing it. So I do think it's really important to talk about the pain of the challenge of course. That context is so important for the conversation, but it just feels ridiculous to me and I've just seen it not work so many times.

I actually had a client who did this for a long time, he sold fitness and you know, he felt he was such a kind person. People loved him, you would love him. Everybody loves him right and he has to implement this strategy. And he hears his client sit right before or his prospect right before he hangs up go, what an asshole. He thought that they had hung up and he was mortified. Mortified that this person had gotten the impression like that he made this person feel so bad that they thought that he was an asshole because he's never been called an asshole before. But it's because he was implementing the strategy you're talking about this just grinding into the pain and then telling them, well, I guess you're just going to choose this miserable situation, have a nice life loser now.

H: Okay, obviously we're exaggerating. I can't imagine anyone who is a listener to the Driven Woman Entrepreneur Podcast, doing anything that approximates this in any way, but let's go to the other extreme. What I think is probably far more common, especially for women and gender minorities is the non close. Kind of like they go through their whole spiel, they tell the person everything they need to know. They answer their objections, they answer their questions, they think of all their possible objections, and they answer those before the person has a chance to bring them up and then with their final breath, they say, so what do you think? And 99 percent of the time, you know what they're thinking, and you know what they're going to say, which is, you know, let me think about it.

And I remember in the first sales job I ever had many years ago, I was, which was selling fitness memberships. I was told if a person says they're going to think about it, they're not going to think about it. You have just let them slip through your fingers and they're either going to go home and they're never going to exercise or they're going to go join another gym, either way, you have failed us and you failed them, so you do not let anybody think about it. What do you think about when someone says they need to think about it? Do you think that's a failed sale? Do you think that's an opportunity? Do you think you need to let people think about it and circle back? And I know there's a lot of nuance here, but I'm really curious what you think about the, I have to think about it response.

G: Yeah. Generally speaking, I think it's a, it's not a good sign.

H: I think we can probably agree on that.

G: Yeah, it's not what you want to hear. It's usually, so it's funny cause when people hear that or hear even no, it's not personal and it can feel very personal. It's almost always a lack of clarity or confusion. And if you ask questions, you will figure out what they were unclear on and one of the things that's funny about adults is that we say things that are veiled in like five different costumes. So you have to like ask what's really being asked by a question, well how much time is it going to take? Well, how much time do you have? Like what they're really asking is like, is this going to take all my time, but they're not asking that, right?

So if you just tell them how much time it's going to take, it's not a satisfactory answer. So being able to say, are you concerned about time. Like having an honest discussion about what's behind that question or behind that objection is going to be more effective in like uncovering the cause of confusion or lack of clarity that's making somebody say, let me think about it. So and then another big one, if you're talking to consumers, especially coaching, it's really like, is there a concern that this might not work for you that you would be an exception in some way. And what about your current situation makes you think that. Because I can tell you from everything I know, I don't see any reason for that, but do you have information that I don't like what's coming up for you.

And so often it's about really like coaching someone through the mindset of fear so you want to come from that place of curiosity where it's like is this person not a fit? Do I not have information that means you're not a fit because from what I know you are, but like, let's talk it through because I don't want you to do anything that's not in your best interest. So like what's coming up for you and I will treat it like it's potentially valid instead of just dismissing it, which like so often when people have an objection, they're like, that's not a issue because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it just feels like, well, you didn't even consider it like, this is a concern I'm expressing to you and you've just completely invalidated it. So treating it like, okay, let's talk about it is it a deal breaker, I don't want you to come in if it is. And I think that that will be much more effective in avoiding a let me think about it, or if a let me think about it happens, you're able to have that line of questioning afterwards so that you can just get clear on what's coming up for the person, basically, and it's almost always that they're confused about something, they misheard you, they thought they assumed something about the program based on what you said and it was an incorrect assumption. It's just always, it's almost always something like that, does that make sense?

H: What do you think about, this is something I think happens very frequently. I'm gonna set up two scenarios. One is, a lot of people tell me and I'm sure you that what they're selling is not unique services for example. They're a coach, they're a consultant, they're a service provider of some sort, let's just say, we'll use an example of, they are a graphic designer who creates websites on WordPress or Squarespace or Wix or whatever and there are thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who do that. When people tell me, you know, what's hard for them about selling is that they don't offer anything unique, they offer something that any number of other people offer.

So it's almost like they need to be convinced that they would hire themselves to be able to ask for the sale. And if they see themselves as just one of many, and it's kind of like, well, they could hire me or they could hire her or they could hire him or they can hire them. So I almost feel like it's an issue of they don't even know if they would hire themselves because they think they're literally just like everybody else. So how are they going to ask for the business if they're not even convinced they should have the business. Do you encounter that with people?

G: That's so interesting, I think I see it in a different way. So people will feel uncomfortable with charging more and that's usually a sign of what you're saying. They don't understand the value of what they offer or sales avoidance and sales resistance in general. So a lot of times it's like, do you take care of your clients? Do they get results? The other people that do what you do are the majority of them not giving that same experience, then you are doing a disservice by not saving that person from getting burned. If you know that you deliver quality on, like, you really it is a disservice, I don't know. There's probably a better word, but to not share that with that person.

And, you know, kind of kick their empathy in the right direction, like kick their thinking in the right direction and if you don't deliver a result that like people really like, then I don't know what you're doing. That's you need to figure out something that you do deliver a really great result with and you have strengths and there's always something unique about what somebody does. And that can be hard to figure out on your own, it's actually one of my superpower is really defining your superpower and helping you just sell the crap out of it. Because there, people are always like, there's this thing called an unconscious competency where you just think it's so normal that you do this, but nobody else does it.

So for example, I worked with like a fitness client and after talking to him about what he did, it became clear that he actually helped people overcome injuries without surgery and he'd done it with everyone. And I'm like, this is very, very unique, I would definitely focus on this angle. Or you work with somebody who's like, I'm really good at simplifying complex concepts for like older people. But let's run with that, you know so they just don't realize the thing about them a lot of times. There is something unique about you usually just need you're like, there's that saying it's hard to see the label from inside the bottle.

H: Absolutely true. In fact, I think most people, when they are in their zone of genius, they don't see themselves there at all. They do not recognize that what they do ridiculously well, so naturally that it would never even occur to them that it has value, that they could sell it and that not everyone can do it. But it's perfectly obvious to me or to you that this is an exceptional ability or talent or gift or strength or skill, but to the person, it's like anybody can do this. And I'm like, nope, for sure not and then being able to place a value on that. I mean, those are really, really interesting conversations. I'm remembering something that you mentioned to me on another conversation about and I was really fascinated with this, Aleasha, because I'd never heard it before.

We were talking about how most people who are naturally good at sales tend to be outgoing, tend to be extroverts, tend to be charming, charismatic, effervescent, talkative and that's sort of what people think. Well, yeah, that's a salesperson like you can see a salesperson a mile away and I'm just not like that so therefore I can't sell. The vast majority of people are not extroverts. The vast majority of people are actually introverts and you described that for an introvert who is marketing and selling, let's say professional services, who they are is actually a pattern interrupt, could you talk more about that because I thought that was really interesting.

G: Yeah. So people will actually trust you more because you don't seem like a salesperson. So when you're talking to someone who seems like what you expect as a salesperson you know, has all the right words quick on their feet, you know, just making you laugh. Do you trust everything they say? Like probably not, you're probably taking it with a grain of salt, right? If they're selling you something one time, okay, fine you might, but if you're like going to have this ongoing relationship, client relationship with them, you're like, I don't know if this person is full of shit right. So I think I'm getting the feeling they might be like.

H: Like they're an actor, like they're an actor playing a part.

G: Yeah, like I can tell that they do this with everyone, I'm not special here right. So in corporate, I worked with this girl who was always the top salesperson and she was so quiet. No one suspected her, she was like a ninja. People heard her more because she didn't speak as much you know, because her voice was quieter because she just did not seem like a salesperson and she was an absolute sales killer. And this is something that I have seen time and time again, like, because introverts sort of are naturally inclined to have empathy and curiosity where extroverts are more naturally inclined to be like, you're having a great time so I'm having a great time.

I'm having a great time, so you're having a great time, we're all having a great time. We're like an introvert is very attuned to the other person's response can adjust in the situation and accommodate them and stuff like that. So, people who are like a little quieter and more awkward are really more in tune with the situation and it's refreshing as a buyer to have somebody who just is not trying to charm the pants off you, who's just trying to understand your situation. It's refreshing because it's so rarely happens and you can even call it out and say, you know what, I'm awkward and I hate sales calls, but I want to see if I can help you and it just immediately diffuses the situation.

H: Do you actually teach people to do that, who think they're awkward and hate sales calls to actually state that at the beginning of a sales call?

G: Yeah. Sometimes it really helps to state the obvious and it just kind of like relaxes it, relaxes the situation so they don't feel this pressure to be perfect and on. They're letting them know like, this is not my thing, this is not my strength, but I'm going to do my best to help you. And the other person like kind of you know, lets their guard down isn't going to be so hard on the person is going to press so much on them. And be so skeptical and stuff because they're like, Oh, that's endearing right? It's a person just like me, it's just a regular human.

H: I actually love that. And I could imagine for people who are like, Oh, I'm sales avoidant, I know I need to sell my services, because otherwise I have a hobby, not a business, ugh but it's just so awkward. Okay, own it, own your awkward and maybe even start the call with, look, I am really good as an attorney, as an accountant, as a coach, as a therapist, whatever you are, but I really can't stand sales. So let me be clear with you, I seem awkward, it's because I am but it's not because I don't know what I'm doing. It's because this part is not what I'm really good at so can we just have an understanding that we're maybe going to be a little bit uncomfortable together while we figure out together whether I'm the person that can help you solve the problem that's brought you to this conversation? Like, I could really picture both sides of the equation, just immediately letting their guard down and actually having a much better conversation about whether they could actually have a good relationship and work together.

G: Yeah. I mean, as a buyer, a lot of times when you're in a sales conversation, you're like almost playing defense, right? You're like, I'm not going to share everything. I'm not going to tell them exactly what I want to hear because then they're just going to tell me exactly what I want to hear. But if somebody said that to you, you might guide them a little more in what you need to know in order to know if this is the best solution for you right? Like you'd be like, let me help this person since it's not their strength and it's just you see it in marketing a lot, something that looks different and acts different is automatically more interesting and you engage with it more. So it stands true in sales too like if there's one experience that we always expect in sales, when it's different, it's more interesting and engaging and you kind of are caught off guard, you know, and trusted a bit more, or at least are interested more.

H: So what I'm hearing Aleasha over and over and over is you don't have to be any kind of personality type. You don't have to behave in any kind of way. You don't need a personality transplant. You don't need to learn how to sell. You need to learn how to communicate with people about what you do and whether it can help them. That makes so much sense, but there's one more piece of this, and this is something, this is something that I talk about a lot on my podcast and in my speaking engagements and so forth is something I see a lot of people have. And you mentioned it earlier, rejection sensitivity like I think especially creative people, people who are empathic.

They are so afraid that they're going to hear a no or hear nothing, be ghosted that just like getting themselves to get on a sales call is hard enough, but getting themselves to ask the kind of questions that would help the person make a decision and know how the call should end so they just kind of like trickle out the conversation at the end. Say, Oh, I see that we're out of time so it's been really nice chatting with you, I hope that it was worth your while and, yeah, so Yeah, bye. What would you tell somebody who like finds themselves in that really cringe worthy situation, is there like a mindset shift they need to make? Is there a simple practice they need to develop? Like, how do people get themselves to do what they need to do to ask the question without being terrorized by fear of hearing no.

G: Yeah, so I am not a mindset coach. I've got a couple moves and then that's it, I'm out of moves.

H: Okay, let's hear it.

G: Yeah. So, I mean, it really helps to have a structure for your conversation, right? So, yes, you need to be yourself and own your quirkiness and all this stuff, and you need to have the right questions and the right words to explain what you do in a way that resonates with the other person. That alone is going to give you way more confidence in the sales conversation.

H: Makes sense.

G: Yeah, in addition to that, it's so important to remember that the other person is like just a regular ass human like you. So if you can kick your empathy into thinking about this person and what they're going through, they're scared to make an investment. They're scared they're going to be wrong. They're scared that they have to think about the money they wasted. And how can you talk through that with them and make sure it's not going to be money they wasted. Can you tell them the scenarios when your stuff does not work and clarify that that's not them. And cause a lot of times people are like, Oh, but what if I can't promise this result and it's like, well, is there a scenario where those result always happens? Yes, well, tell them about it and tell them when it doesn't happen, just to make sure and that can help a lot is really like covering because then they can feel confident, okay no, I, you really are the person I can get the result right.

And then just, if you can not take it personally, which is difficult to do, but use your empathy to remember what it's like when you're in that position, it's not personal when you're worried about buying from someone, it's usually your own stuff that's coming up. So, an experience you had where you got burned, an experience where you didn't do what you thought you were going to do, an experience where you thought you had it right and you didn't and whatever. So like, if you're able to really be present with the person the same way you would, like, sometimes I compare it to, I have two analogy examples.

One is when your friend is in a relationship that is like not great and they're asking you for advice. You're going to ask some tough questions, right because it's in their best interests for you to ask, you know, well, you know, has this happened multiple times. Like what were, what were the facts of the situation you know, was it the same, were there patterns like how can we figure out what the best next step is for you. And you would allow yourself to ask those questions so that you could do the best thing for the other person. And then the other analogy that I have is it's really just a conversation about, as far as fitting goes, if somebody were to ask you, where should I go eat?

Well, where are you staying? What's your budget? What kind of food do you like? And I'm going to customize the solution to you based on those things. And if you're like, not quite, okay, what about that's not quite, let me give you another alternative. You know, you just talk through it in a very normal, it's a very normal human conversation. Somebody has a problem, they're asking for your help and all you're doing is helping them solve it, whether that's with you or someone else. So it's not about them having to say yes, it's just about if it's pointing them in a different direction, giving them different resources, that transparent approach where it's like, Hey, I'm just here to find out what the hell is going on.

And if I can help in the same way that you would, if somebody was asking about a friend, asking about a relationship that was difficult and going down the drain, or like a restaurant. So those things can really help to just remember, it's just a person. They're a mother, brother, father, sister. They might've had a good day. They might've had a bad day. They might've had forgot their kid's lunch and feel like an idiot. They have a million things going on in their brain, just like you. How can you help them solve this one thing that is bugging the crap out of them?

H: That takes so much pressure off just hearing you describe it that way and I think coming to a sales conversation, a strategy call, a discovery call, whatever you call it and not placing any weight on the outcome, not being attached to a particular outcome, but I'm going to be of service to this person. And at the end of this conversation, we're either going to agree that I can help them and they would like to be helped by me, and then we begin that process, or we're going to realize they're not right, they're not ready, they're not resourced, or I'm not a fit, and then I'm going to try to help them figure out what their next step is to move on from here. And I can do that with empathy and curiosity and just also holding space for the fact that they're probably just as nervous to be on this call as you are that kind of steers you away from your own mental nonsense and fear. I love that.

G: Yes and all of their feelings are valid and they have nothing to do with you. All of their questions are valid, you know and if somebody's own shit is coming up, you call them on it. That sounds like you might be taking one situation and painting it as like a reason to not move forward anymore. Does that feel accurate to you, I'm just going to like call it out here. You seem really nervous, what's going on? Like, you want to help him, you know?

H: That right there, that right there is your empathy and curiosity personified and anyone can learn how to do that better. So I am very sure that there are folks listening who are like, I need to get some more Aleasha Bahr into my life. So what would you like them to do to take this conversation with you deeper after this episode?

G: Yeah. So if what I've said here sounds like it resonates with you and it's different from what you heard, and it's something that you know, that's a good sign that you would thrive with it and I would recommend going to Sales is Not a Dirty Word and listening. That's my podcast Sales is Not a Dirty Word and going to episode 35, which is a 10 minute episode on selling like a natural to get a better feel of the approach and if it's something you could really run with and implement.

H: I love that. I will make sure there is a link to that direct episode as well as your website and your preferred social media platform. This, I knew it was going to be a great episode. You and I really see a lot of things eye to eye and most importantly, want to help more creative people and business owners be able to sell with a lot more ease because you're absolutely right, sales is most definitely not a dirty word.