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Write Persuasive Copy without Feeling Icky
Episode 165 • 16th December 2022 • Women Conquer Business • Jen McFarland
00:00:00 00:45:46

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Jen:

Hello and welcome to the Women Conquer Business Show.

Jen:

I'm Jen McFarland, joined by Shelley Carney.

Jen:

We are your go-to small business marketing show covering breaking marketing news

Jen:

that affects you cool apps we found, and a deep dive into a marketing topic

Jen:

with a site of motivation and inspir.

Jen:

We'll also talk a little about our own entrepreneurial journeys as well.

Jen:

Are you ready?

Jen:

Let's get started.

Jen:

Welcome to Women Conquer Business.

Jen:

Everybody.

Jen:

, about 20 minutes ago I had not combed my hair, so welcome.

Jen:

We're running a little

Shelley:

late.

Shelley:

That's cutting a over

Jen:

here.

Jen:

That's okay.

Jen:

Today we're gonna talk about how to write persuasive copy without feeling I.

Jen:

Writing persuasive copy is one of the most important skills you can have in business.

Jen:

It allows you to influence people, guide them, and get them to take action.

Jen:

However, it can be difficult to master, especially when you get all the feels.

Jen:

I get all the feels sometimes when you get all the feels and run in.

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Wanna run and take a hot shower after you write something, which is icky, right?

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So this, we're gonna talk about all the best ways to write persuasive

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copy without feeling icky.

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, we'll help you write some better, more persuasive copy, , to create some

Jen:

powerful newsletters maybe for your email marketing, maybe some social

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media posts that are more engaging.

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This is not.

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Sales necessarily, because I have a pretty bright line between sales and

Jen:

marketing, but this is one of the areas where it blurs is, , when you're

Jen:

marketing things, you're persuading people to join something, attend an

Jen:

event, or move into a different way.

Jen:

It's interesting because in large companies, sales and marketing

Jen:

are separate as small businesses, they tend to get blurred a lot.

Jen:

I think it is important to I've been attending a session with

Jen:

Nikki Rosh, she's the sales maven.

Jen:

She talks strictly about sales and I've been taking her masterclass and there are

Jen:

sometimes where she blurs into marketing, but we're both very much we don't do.

Jen:

The other person's stuff.

Jen:

We're not experts in those fields.

Jen:

So so you know, when I talk about myself getting the feels, I'm really

Jen:

good at writing a copy for other people.

Jen:

I can write persuasive copy for other people.

Jen:

I myself sometimes struggle with writing it about myself, and that's

Jen:

why a lot of times I'll hire somebody to help me write persuasive copy.

Jen:

In some cases, I think, Shelley, you write your own stuff, right?

Jen:

Is that.

Jen:

. Shelley: Yeah, I do.

Jen:

And, and you get, and, and you get better over time.

Jen:

Cuz I've been doing it for years and , now when I do a show, I automatically

Jen:

start inserting, oh, and by the way, I do this and call me here and do that.

Jen:

And you gotta throw in some CTAs.

Jen:

I throw in, what I do?

Jen:

I make sure everybody is aware of what my offers are.

Jen:

So , the more you do it, the more integrated it becomes into everything you.

Jen:

. Jen: Sure.

Jen:

And I'm a natural teacher, so it's, that's where I start from.

Jen:

And then there's not a lot of calls to action in education necessarily.

Jen:

But speaking of a call to action, if you haven't subscribed to the Women Conquer

Jen:

Business Show, either on YouTube or on your favorite podcasting platform,

Jen:

, please do that helps us reach out to you more often, , and get to know you.

Jen:

So please do.

Jen:

What else is going on, Shelley?

Jen:

Sounds like you've been exercising maybe.

Jen:

Oh,

, Shelley:

I always tend to do this around, , November, but I'm a little late this year.

, Shelley:

It's December and I'm weighed myself and I'm like, okay, it's

, Shelley:

time to cut out the sugars and start getting serious about eating

, Shelley:

healthy and getting back to exercise.

, Shelley:

I . Gave up exercise last year when I was having all those health issues and

, Shelley:

now that they are behind me, it's time to, , so I got back into exercise this

, Shelley:

week too because healthy diet and exercise leads to weight loss and , being fit.

, Shelley:

, I maybe overdid it because.

, Shelley:

The lightest weights that I have are 10 pounds, and I did my, did 10 pounds

, Shelley:

on some exercises that I haven't done in over a year, and it was so much.

, Shelley:

And now my arm is I hate you.

, Shelley:

And like, why Amy?

, Shelley:

So luckily on Friday, , I'm gonna do my float and lay there in some Epsom salts

, Shelley:

for an hour and hopefully that's going to help take some of the soreness away.

Jen:

Look Jeep, Jeep girl, Jodi's here.

Jen:

Hey, hey,

Shelley:

thanks for joining.

Shelley:

We appreciate you joining

Jen:

us.

Jen:

And I'm gonna be with everybody else.

Jen:

I've been going to the gym, but I'm gonna be there when it's

Jen:

super crowded after New Year.

Jen:

I'm not gonna worry about it at this point.

Jen:

It's too, too close to the Christmas holidays.

Jen:

Well,

Shelley:

my husband asked me, what do you want for Christmas?

Shelley:

And I said, I wanna lose weight.

Shelley:

And he's well, I can't do anything about that.

Shelley:

And I'm like, yeah, it's on me.

Shelley:

I guess I can.

Shelley:

Self, the Christmas present of losing weight.

Shelley:

So that's why I decided to do it.

Shelley:

. Jen: So what I've been up to is, so Liz

Shelley:

We recorded three episodes and turned out to be a three parter, three

Shelley:

episodes of female crime fighters.

Shelley:

I think last week I mentioned that we were gonna work on a podcast side project

Shelley:

for fun and nothing has been released.

Shelley:

We're still collecting names and ideas, and then we did.

Shelley:

Three episodes about the closer and major crimes, which I am addicted to

Shelley:

with my mom and then my friend Jeanie.

Shelley:

I mean, there's , , a lot of my buds are listening to it and watching it.

Shelley:

, but now we've got a whole list of, I think the next episode

Shelley:

we're gonna record is Anita Van Buren, who is a personal favorite.

Shelley:

She's the lieutenant from the Original Law and Order.

Shelley:

And, , and then we have some other people, DCI Tenson, and.

Shelley:

Yeah, we've got all, we've got a huge list.

Shelley:

Everybody I talk to gives me another name, so we'll give you two adding

Shelley:

list

Shelley:

, Jen: cause you gave me

Shelley:

And then, , we've got so many things going on.

Shelley:

So that's been super fun.

Shelley:

, it was awesome.

Shelley:

Liz came over with their mom and their 10 year old Beagle and.

Shelley:

Oh great.

Shelley:

So we had a little doggy play date and then Liz and I , we

Shelley:

kept talking and talking.

Shelley:

Cuz what we're doing is we're cutting off episodes like a half hour.

Shelley:

Mm-hmm.

Shelley:

, so that's why it's three.

Shelley:

Cuz we kept talking about this topic, and then we, so it's interesting.

Shelley:

It's a super fun thing.

Shelley:

So that's what I've been up to.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

Podcasting is fun.

Shelley:

Especially when it's friends having a chat and you

Jen:

record it.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

And that's totally what it is.

Jen:

Liz and I had That's right.

Jen:

Seen each other forever and we were like, we should do this.

Jen:

So, yeah.

Jen:

, so more on that later if it ever comes out, , , we'll share it.

Jen:

So it will, but it's like we wanna get like some things

Jen:

in the can before we Yeah.

Jen:

Start doing it.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

Are you ready for some marketing breaking news?

Jen:

Let's do it.

Jen:

Let's do it.

Jen:

Okay.

Jen:

So I saw somebody commented on this last night and said, ha ha ha, , Marco Rubio

Jen:

wants to ban TikTok, and, and I was wow.

Jen:

Not gonna happen, but it is bipartisan legislation that

Jen:

would ban TikTok in the us.

Jen:

The thing that I found more interesting though, however, is that TikTok has

Jen:

already been banned by about nine states already, which I hadn't realized because

Shelley:

in my, I'm not sure how do they do that though?

Shelley:

How do they ban it?

Shelley:

An estate?

Shelley:

I don't

Jen:

know.

Jen:

I don't know if they're blocking it, like using IP addresses or something like that.

Jen:

Hmm.

Jen:

, but, , , oh, they abandoned on state devices, so they're starting to ban it.

Jen:

So like, government people can't use it.

Jen:

That's what it is.

Jen:

I see.

Jen:

But, , a lot of people have work phones and things like that, like mm-hmm.

Jen:

so it, it's, it's getting some traction Now.

Jen:

We've talked about TikTok off and on for a long time, and while it, , all

Jen:

of this, this China banning it thing, it's very fascinating to me

Jen:

because, . It's not like the app is owned by the Chinese government.

Jen:

, they have US investors . So it, it's complicated, , it's a geopolitical

Jen:

thing that's happening, , but it is something to watch.

Jen:

So, and this is, , this is.

Jen:

, the kiss and cousin to what's going on with Twitter.

Jen:

We know Facebook is in decline.

Jen:

An interesting thing about TikTok though is that they've plateaued, like in their

Jen:

number of people downloading the app.

Jen:

So there's a lot going on with social media right now.

Jen:

But we know that Twitter has its problems.

Jen:

We know that Facebook has, is in decline if your, , customers are under 50 or some

Jen:

of them are under 40, even . So, . It tells you again and again, don't put

Jen:

all of your eggs in the social media basket like you have to have marketing

Jen:

that's diverse and you have to use.

Jen:

If you're using social media, yes, pick one or two platforms, but don't do only.

Jen:

social media marketing.

Jen:

You have to have an email newsletter.

Jen:

You have to have some other ways that you're, , networking

Jen:

or how you're meeting people.

Jen:

, you have to do a vast number of things.

Jen:

It doesn't have to be complicated, and it doesn't have to be tons, but you have

Jen:

to diversify how you're marketing your business in order to safeguard yourself

Jen:

against something like this, which, , honestly, this was a, , we've been

Jen:

covering this for a while, but like this was a little unexpected that all of a.

Jen:

There's legislation from, , a senator about this that may or may not pass.

Jen:

So again, and this is something I talk about in all my marketing

Jen:

classes, , don't put all your eggs in, , one , one basket, , , because

Jen:

you never know what can happen.

Jen:

And also have spaces that you own yourself.

Jen:

So this, this reinforces the, , having a website, not social media.

Jen:

So, , getting off my soapbox there about that.

Shelley:

Well, what stands out to me?

Shelley:

every year there's some social media site that is like, oh, we only, and maybe

Shelley:

it's, , it, it's not all of a sudden.

Shelley:

TikTok has been around for a while, but, , it seems like everybody

Shelley:

last year was, I gotta get on TikTok because that's the thing.

Shelley:

And then they commercialize, it's.

Shelley:

So much, and then it tapers off.

Shelley:

People get bored with it.

Shelley:

It's like, oh, it used to be fun.

Shelley:

And now it's a bunch of commercials, like Instagram has become like

Shelley:

that, ? And that's fading.

Shelley:

And Facebook is really fading because of, , they, their trickery that they

Shelley:

used with marketers saying, , build your business page and then boost.

Shelley:

It and give us money to, to send it out to people.

Shelley:

And then, oh, now they like your page.

Shelley:

So they're gonna see more things.

Shelley:

Oh, wait a minute.

Shelley:

We wanna charge you now for showing that to people.

Shelley:

And this, this constant, , trickery that they try to do on the marketers

Shelley:

and the people who are trying to build their small business.

Shelley:

online through social media as an awareness, , factor in the top of

Shelley:

the funnel, and then bring them in.

Shelley:

And then Facebook at one time it was an entire funnel.

Shelley:

Yep.

Shelley:

And then they said, , oh, they're gonna charge you and

Shelley:

nickel and dime you to death.

Shelley:

And so people are like, well, let's find something else.

Shelley:

And so they're starting to go other places to go other places.

Shelley:

And now with TikTok, , a lot of people.

Shelley:

Bo, , to me, and you, you, we tried it.

Shelley:

We were bored.

Shelley:

We're like, , enough of his enough, let's put it away.

Shelley:

And, and haven't gone back to it.

Shelley:

Now, Toby, he's been on it for over a year, , a year and a

Shelley:

half, two years, loving it.

Shelley:

And I'm like, he had it last night.

Shelley:

He was going through it, and I'm like, eh, it's, I don't,

Shelley:

I don't get, I don't see it.

Shelley:

It's, it's not for me.

Shelley:

It's a waste of time.

Shelley:

. Jen: Yeah.

Shelley:

I mean, I have to get off of there.

Shelley:

And I was on a, A platform where I was making videos all the time

Shelley:

like that and I got burned out on it cuz it was hard to do.

Shelley:

Mm-hmm.

Shelley:

, I could probably do TikTok and love it.

Shelley:

, but I'm on so many places at this point, I'm , ugh, ? , , all of

Shelley:

this, , it's so funny because , you're talking about this and you're

Shelley:

talking about the ads and everything.

Shelley:

One of the reasons I knew Clubhouse was never gonna take off is cuz there

Shelley:

was no way for them to make money.

Shelley:

They didn't have ads.

Shelley:

Yeah, they didn't have anything.

Shelley:

So you have to have ads.

Shelley:

They have to charge things.

Shelley:

And this is why I say you have to diversify because they can change

Shelley:

the playing field at any point.

Shelley:

So you do have to.

Shelley:

, make sure how you engage that you're engaging in places, but then you

Shelley:

also have spaces that you own.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

Because they can change it overnight.

Shelley:

And that's really what we've seen, , in a lot of places.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

So no, the good news is if TikTok goes away, something else will immediately

Shelley:

take its place that it'll be like it.

Shelley:

So I'm not worried.

Shelley:

, and I didn't invest all my time and effort into TikTok to begin with

Shelley:

because it was the flash and the pan thing that the, , ele, , the

Shelley:

millennials and the Gen Z were 11 on.

Shelley:

And I'm like, I'm not, that's not my age group, that's not my target

Jen:

demographic.

Jen:

It might not go away.

Jen:

Like, here's the.

Jen:

Like this might push them to sell or put all their servers somewhere else.

Jen:

I mean, , I'm, I, I, I don't think TikTok is going away.

Jen:

I'm gonna say, I'll, I'll say this and then when I'm wrong, we can

Jen:

replay the video like a hundred times share it or something.

Jen:

, I, I don't think that that's gonna happen.

Shelley:

No.

Shelley:

Obviously Jen's advice is the best advice is, , do get your

Shelley:

people on your email list.

Shelley:

Yes.

Shelley:

Number one effort.

Shelley:

Yes.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

And Toby and Toby's, totally right.

Jen:

, if you're not paying for the product, you are the product eventually that affects

Jen:

the user's perception of the platform.

Jen:

That's totally correct.

Jen:

And , that's the case of anything that's free.

Jen:

. Yeah.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

, I mean, and even if you're paying for it, Yeah.

Jen:

, there's, there's different things.

Jen:

So, so Toby's a hundred percent right.

Jen:

And bear that in mind.

Jen:

Anything you're using that you're not paying for or that you don't own.

Jen:

, and that's the case.

Jen:

So, yeah.

Jen:

Are you ready?

Jen:

Are you re are you ready?

Jen:

Ready, training.

Shelley:

Ready for training.

Shelley:

Move into training.

Shelley:

Let's

Jen:

power up.

Jen:

So, , this topic was my idea and then this morning I texted Shelley and I

Jen:

said, I don't even know what we're gonna say, . And it was because I got hung

Jen:

up on the, without feeling icky part.

Jen:

Mm-hmm.

Jen:

certainly.

Jen:

, there's a lot of ways that you can be persuasive and influence.

Jen:

, what we're really talking about is influence.

Jen:

And I will say that when I'm in my zone of genius, I, I think I, I

Jen:

am persuasive and influence people because I, I do a lot of research.

Jen:

I really think things through, , a little later on the show, we're

Jen:

gonna do tweak of the week.

Jen:

I can be persuasive about these things because I've used the tools.

Jen:

I really like them, and then I share them.

Jen:

, and I think that that's the case in a, with a lot of things.

Jen:

I think that we have areas where we can be very persuasive and we

Jen:

know, and part of the reason for that is we know that it's a win-win.

Jen:

We're going into it.

Jen:

We know that it's a win-win, and I think that where we get the feel

Jen:

sometimes around sales copy and things like that is we get a little

Jen:

nervous because we start doing the, well, what if, what if, what if?

Jen:

What if, what if?

Jen:

What if?

Jen:

I think that when we look at our products and the things that we're marketing,

Jen:

sometimes we have to realize what the, what if you have to ask yourself

Jen:

is, what if I don't help more people?

Jen:

What are they losing out on if they don't attend my event?

Jen:

What are they missing out on?

Jen:

How is it a win for them?

Jen:

And I think that sometimes you have to look at things from that perspective.

Jen:

because your intention is that you wanna help the right people with

Jen:

the right things at the right time.

Jen:

. Shelley: Yeah.

Jen:

I think part of my issue, , is when I'm writing, , using superlatives and

Jen:

hyperbole and this is the best ever and top 10 tips and, , , , giving

Jen:

it that, , this is incredible, amazing, blah, blah, blah.

Jen:

And, and you have to say, but is it really, , ? Is it good, , good isn't

Jen:

gonna attract people's attention.

Jen:

They're not gonna click on it, they're not gonna get excited about it.

Jen:

They're not gonna start dreaming of their out.

Jen:

, how outcomes and how amazing life is, which is part of the persuasive

Jen:

process, is to get them involved in it by using that powerful language.

Jen:

, like when we, when you use the headline analyzer, it's going to tell you use

Jen:

more powerful, more feeling words.

Jen:

You don't get people excited, so they'll click.

Jen:

Absolutely.

Jen:

So that can be tough

Jen:

sometimes.

Jen:

And this is an example, right?

Jen:

Like, so I think that we had, , I'm clicking on the wrong window.

Jen:

I think that when we started writing, , we had booster business with product bundles,

Jen:

that I think that's what it is on.

Jen:

Yeah, and then I worked through it until, it's like product bundle campaigns, how

Jen:

to grow your list, the remarkably easy way, and it scores an 87% on there.

Jen:

But then it's like, well, is that, is that the easiest?

Jen:

Is that the easiest way?

Jen:

I mean, you can really second guess yourself.

Jen:

And I think that really what we're talking about is when you

Jen:

go to write persuasive copy.

Jen:

it's really about, , do you have social proof?

Jen:

Do you have testimonials about what you're doing?

Jen:

, add that, , you know that you're building up that, that no like

Jen:

and trust factor with people.

Jen:

They're learning about you.

Jen:

They're talking, they're hearing what it is that you

Jen:

have to say on an ongoing basis.

Jen:

I think persuasive copy becomes much easier when you are engaging.

Jen:

With your customers on an ongoing basis.

Jen:

Mm-hmm.

Jen:

, because then it's like you're delivering it to them.

Jen:

Like , , here, here's the offer.

Jen:

And you don't have to feel icky about it.

Jen:

But that said, there are a lot of frameworks that you can be using

Jen:

to really help you talk through things and it will help you

Jen:

understand how to bring people in.

Jen:

One of the tools that I like for that is type.

Jen:

And, , oh, what do you have?

Jen:

What is, what does Chief Girl Jodi say?

Jen:

I always start with, I wanted to reach out to you.

Jen:

I found people love when you say it in your email message.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

Hmm.

Jen:

Yeah, totally.

Jen:

Totally.

Jen:

And there are a lot of different ways that you can, that you can do this.

Jen:

, One of the things that I like to do is I like to use frameworks.

Jen:

I like to look at how is it that I can engage people?

Jen:

What are things that I like, ? What is it that is persuasive to me,

Jen:

and then I try to emulate it.

Jen:

This is one of the ways that you can start teaching yourself.

Jen:

Copy, how to write sales copy.

Jen:

I am f like I said, I am fantastic at writing sales copy for other people,

Jen:

. That's why sometimes I hire somebody to do it for me because it's, it's helpful

Jen:

when you can ha when you can explain what it is that you do and then have somebody

Jen:

else write some of the copy for you.

Jen:

because it keeps me out of it where I'm like, well, but is it

Jen:

always, , to your point that you made earlier, like is it always the best?

Jen:

Like you can second guess yourself, right?

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

And so one of the ways that you can get around that, like for example, I have, I

Jen:

have a framework for my newsletter when I write a newsletter and I use, I use

Jen:

timeshare sometimes, and then I worked.

Jen:

, I think I've mentioned her before, Elizabeth Case, and we wrote out like

Jen:

a framework, like this is how, this is how your newsletter is gonna be.

Jen:

Like you're gonna start off with something funny because if you've heard me talk

Jen:

for a while, , I get, , I like dad jokes, I like to share something funny.

Jen:

Then it's like talking about, , something that's going on in marketing or,

Jen:

, sharing something of value and then it usually ends with, so, An offer or

Jen:

upcoming events or something like that.

Jen:

And that's typically like the framework.

Jen:

, when we have podcast episodes, , the podcast episode gets slotted in.

Jen:

That's how you start to make your writing quicker and easier.

Jen:

And then when you're using a framework, then writing something about what's coming

Jen:

up and being persuasive about that, it almost becomes something that you're not

Jen:

thinking about because it's part of.

Jen:

Framework or this pattern that you've used, and sometimes

Jen:

that can be an easier way.

Jen:

That's something that has worked for me.

Jen:

It's worked for some of my clients as well, where it's like, let's set

Jen:

you up with something that you can plug and play and get things in there.

Jen:

And I think that you do that too, don't you, Shelley?

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

You don't.

Shelley:

, when you talk about sales copy, , being persuasive, , it isn't your sales page.

Shelley:

It isn't , , your website.

Shelley:

It's everything you do and scripts for, , , your videos, , formats for your podcast.

Shelley:

As you said, it's everything, , is structured in a way that it.

Shelley:

Persuading people to know, like, trust, take an action.

Shelley:

Mm-hmm.

Shelley:

. Jen: Yeah.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

And I think the reason why people think, like, again, I think the reason why some

Shelley:

people think I'm so persuasive is passion.

Shelley:

Like, and, and that's one of the ways that you can.

Shelley:

Really convey what, what matters about what matters to you and hopefully what

Shelley:

matters to you is also something that you're engaged with in your business.

Shelley:

And that's one of the ways that you can really talk about and build that no

Shelley:

like and trust factor on social media.

Shelley:

You build that credibility because you have like spent so much time

Shelley:

talking about it, , on social media when you start talking about things

Shelley:

like straight up marketing like.

Shelley:

, when you're engaging or when you're writing your emails or when you're writing

Shelley:

your social media posts, it's like, how can I position myself as an expert?

Shelley:

Well, at the same time, engaging other people to take some sort

Shelley:

of action, like, what is it?

Shelley:

? And, and so it's not even always sales copy, it's sometimes like, how do I

Shelley:

get people to listen to the podcast that's free, like to get to know me?

Shelley:

Or how do I get people to think?

Shelley:

something in a different way because that raises people's awareness, , how can I get

Shelley:

them to engage with me and think about it?

Shelley:

It's also, it's, it's all of these things.

Shelley:

So when we think about being persuasive, it's really also about

Shelley:

like, how do I change a perspective?

Shelley:

How do I create a shift?

Shelley:

, like, did we create a shift among the people watching

Shelley:

today when we talked about.

Shelley:

How fleeting social media can be.

Shelley:

Hmm.

Shelley:

Did we create that shift?

Shelley:

Have we been persuasive enough?

Shelley:

The people who are maybe putting all of their eggs in social media basket are

Shelley:

now thinking, wow, maybe I do need a website , or maybe I need to update my

Shelley:

website so it has the most information.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

Right.

Shelley:

I mean, and that sometimes is the first.

Shelley:

In a process that ultimately somebody's like, oh yeah, , I

Shelley:

really wanna do a live stream.

Shelley:

I should talk to Shelley.

Shelley:

Oh, I really need to look at my marketing and see if I really am

Shelley:

thinking too much about social media.

Shelley:

Like, maybe I should talk to Jen.

Shelley:

, and, and so that's how these things happen.

Shelley:

Sometimes you need to see examples to help you understand and frame.

Shelley:

How being persuaded looks . We all read copy on a sales page and we're

Shelley:

like, oh, maybe I should buy it.

Shelley:

. . We also know what turns us off from that.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

And it, it's, and I think it's that being turned off by certain things

Shelley:

that can sometimes really hang us up.

Shelley:

I know what hangs me up.

Shelley:

I'm like, I don't wanna be a icky bro, marketer,

Shelley:

Mm-hmm.

Shelley:

So like I get hung up on some things.

Shelley:

Mm-hmm.

Shelley:

Yeah, people are trying to push, push, push.

Shelley:

And then it's like, Nope, you pushed me away.

Shelley:

. That's enough.

Shelley:

I've heard enough.

Shelley:

I'm, I, you've given me a lot to think about.

Shelley:

We

Jen:

also have to have multiple touchpoints, like you have to have, and,

Jen:

and that's where it really comes into, like, what's that customer journey?

Jen:

A lot of people haven't thought about that, and that's one of the ways.

Jen:

that push, push, push is too hard.

Jen:

It's like if you haven't thought about all of the stops along the train, from

Jen:

where somebody meets you for the first time to where they engage with you as

Jen:

a client and you haven't thought of all the different ways that you could talk

Jen:

to them and meet with them, and you're hitting on sales and sales and sales,

Jen:

well, you're not really providing value

Jen:

All you're doing is saying, buy from me.

Jen:

Buy from me.

Jen:

Marketing is a conversation.

Jen:

I've said that so many times, and you're building a relationship with

Jen:

somebody through marketing and it should feel and look very natural,

Jen:

but you do have to engage in some sort of persuasion at some point.

Jen:

Mm-hmm.

Jen:

otherwise you're making good buds.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

You're hanging out in the friend lane.

Jen:

So it's, it's really, but it, it does mean that if to think about who your customers

Jen:

, your customers, because it can take a lot of touch points, but then you also have

Jen:

to realize that at some point they have to come over, they have to leave the friend.

Shelley:

Yeah, well make an offer.

Shelley:

Essentially.

Shelley:

Some people have a lot of clarity on what their problem is and, , that they

Shelley:

are ready to solve it, and they're looking for the right solution.

Shelley:

And then other people don't have that clarity, so they take longer because

Shelley:

they have to listen for a while and then begin to understand that.

Shelley:

Now, TikTok is not your answer, your answer.

Shelley:

Getting an email list going.

Shelley:

, they, they have to gain clarity.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

And that takes time.

Shelley:

That takes those touch points, that takes them, , , becoming a part of

Shelley:

your world and seeing that these are the right answers for them.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

And I, , I don't have it up, but we've talked about this in another

Jen:

context on earlier shows when we talked about skyscraper posts,

Jen:

whenever we've brought up the content.

Jen:

A lot of times people think about a sales funnel , but people who are looking for

Jen:

different types of information, they are coming at different points in the funnel.

Jen:

That's why it takes time to persuade somebody when we're talking about copy,

Jen:

like when you write, , how-to post.

Jen:

They're coming in at the informational level.

Jen:

That's different than somebody who's looking at your testimonials.

Jen:

That's making a buying decision.

Jen:

Mm-hmm.

Jen:

, that's, that's down in the conversion part of your content funnel.

Jen:

That's why it's important to have all these different pieces in there

Jen:

where you're getting people from that more generic, how-to level down into,

Jen:

like I said, like a buying decision.

Jen:

So we'll put some links to those shows in the show notes, because I have a slide.

Jen:

clearly talks about the content funnel.

Jen:

That's the mistake a lot of people make when they go to make social media copy

Jen:

or email newsletter copy, is they're not honoring the fact that everybody's

Jen:

in a different place on the funnel when they're engaging with your copy.

Shelley:

Mm-hmm.

Shelley:

. Well, I wanna, I wanna get into this a little bit about the, the icky

Shelley:

feelings and the salesy, and I don't wanna be salesy, I don't wanna be

Shelley:

slimy, I wanna, well, sales is service.

Shelley:

When we look at sales as service, that I am providing a solution to your problem.

Shelley:

I'm not trying to take advantage of you.

Shelley:

I'm not saying you have a problem that you don't.

Shelley:

, I want both of us to be in a winning situation.

Shelley:

Come out at the end feeling good about our relationship.

Shelley:

, so when you go into it like that with, I want to win and I want you to win

Shelley:

too, I want us both to do business together in a very ethical manner.

Shelley:

, And when you come at it with that intent, then you're much less likely to feel like,

Shelley:

, well, I'm making stuff up and saying how great I am when I'm not really, , you have

Shelley:

to move into the focus on the customer instead of focusing on yourself, , when

Shelley:

you focus on the customer and how can I help them get to where they want to be?

Shelley:

, then you can see that sales is service.

Shelley:

. Oh my gosh.

Jen:

I love that.

Jen:

That

Shelley:

was awesome.

Shelley:

, , Jen: words of wisdom.

Shelley:

Boom.

Shelley:

We

Shelley:

know it.

Shelley:

dinging,

, , Jen:

becau and you cannot touch any buttons after what

, , Jen:

happened last week with the no,

Shelley:

no buttons,

Shelley:

. , Jen: but no, I mean,

Shelley:

When you stop centering yourself before you write your copy and

Shelley:

you're really thinking about your customers, that's, that's.

Shelley:

Right there.

Shelley:

Look, we've all been slimed.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

And, and it's so funny that I still get all the feels because, I mean,

Shelley:

I'm a marketer that immediately turns off like, I don't even know, like 75%

Shelley:

of people . So like, then I have my own like uphill battle to go through.

Shelley:

They've done holes on, , it, it's like used car salesman, marketer, , like

Shelley:

in terms of who makes 'em feel icky.

Shelley:

Mm-hmm.

Shelley:

. So, which is hilarious to me cuz I don't wanna feel.

Shelley:

So it, it's weird.

Shelley:

People already think that.

Shelley:

, but I think that you really hit it when you said, , think

Shelley:

about your customer first.

Shelley:

Think about what it is that, that passion you have for helping them,

Shelley:

how you've helped people in the past.

Shelley:

What can you share with them that is, whether it's not

Shelley:

social proof or little bits.

Shelley:

, , it's like a breadcrumb.

Shelley:

You're leaving people a trail that they can ultimately come to engage with you.

Shelley:

That's how you, that's how you take off the.

Shelley:

, you focus on service, like you said that that's what it is.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

That's

Shelley:

it.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

, I would like to go over the principles of persuasion according to the book,

Shelley:

influenced by Robert Kini, , very quickly so that people know a little bit.

Shelley:

, , specifics about what they're writing and, and why they're doing it.

Shelley:

, the first one is reciprocation, and that's what we're doing right now.

Shelley:

We're offering you value, we're, , giving you hints and close on how to improve

Shelley:

your marketing and, , how to, , S make your, make your business safer by

Shelley:

taking your customers off social media and putting them into your email list.

Shelley:

We're giving you that value so that you feel like I would like

Shelley:

to pay them back in some way.

Shelley:

I'm gonna subscribe.

Shelley:

I'm gonna share their content.

Shelley:

I'm going to, , reach out and get some of those freebies that they've been

Shelley:

offering me for the past 10 weeks.

Shelley:

I am going to take some action to repay the value that they gave.

Shelley:

. Mm-hmm.

Shelley:

. The second one is commitment and consistency.

Shelley:

Commitment is.

Shelley:

helping them to come to a decision.

Shelley:

And once they make that decision, then they're going to wanna ify it.

Shelley:

, now a lot of times decisions are made emotionally, , I wanna feel

Shelley:

good about myself, so I'm gonna do this thing, and then I do this thing.

Shelley:

And then people ask me, why did you do that thing?

Shelley:

And now I have to ify it, , . So I have to say, well, it, it made good

Shelley:

business sense, , , and here's why.

Shelley:

And then consistency.

Shelley:

The small commitments, right?

Shelley:

Start off with, , please show, please show up to our live stream and, and, and we

Shelley:

would love to see you in the chat room.

Shelley:

And then, , they do that.

Shelley:

And then they please go ahead and download this, , this freebie.

Shelley:

And they do that.

Shelley:

And the next step is, , how about this lo low priced entry point.

Shelley:

Wouldn't that, wouldn't you like that?

Shelley:

, it's yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Shelley:

Until they get to, , your core offer.

Shelley:

, that's the consistency.

Shelley:

You keep asking and they keep saying yes in small ways.

Shelley:

Social proof, testimonials, , , this is really good.

Shelley:

Jen is awesome.

Shelley:

I've worked with her on, , several different projects.

Shelley:

She's always giving more value than she receives.

Shelley:

She can't, you can't outgive Jen.

Shelley:

, there's my testimonial and it's all true.

Shelley:

It is all true.

Shelley:

Let me tell you.

Shelley:

That is all true.

Shelley:

So when I say that about Jen, . Then you might hear it and say, oh,

Shelley:

well Jen, it must be awesome.

Shelley:

Then if Shelley says, so, , especially if you think highly of me, you feel

Shelley:

like, sure, , I'm a consistent person.

Shelley:

I, , I always tell the truth to you.

Shelley:

I give it to you straight.

Shelley:

, , so you're like, Jen must be good.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

So those testimonials really can't pay off.

Jen:

Can we pause there for a second?

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

The thing about testimonials is if you have like, Praise page on your website.

Jen:

Everybody knows that all the good stuff is gonna be there.

Jen:

Put that on ev.

Jen:

Put a testimonial on every page on your website.

Jen:

Use those testimonials at, they can go in your newsletter,

Jen:

they can go in social media.

Jen:

Think of those as ways that you can highlight somebody

Jen:

that you've worked with.

Jen:

And it is, it, it, it, it's good.

Jen:

Like you can use these things to build credibility with people.

Jen:

without it being all about yourself and, and it really can help you.

Jen:

You can also ask for testimonials in your newsletter.

Jen:

You can also ask for testimonials in all these different places.

Jen:

Do it get, get that social proof because people trust testimonials as

Jen:

much as a recommendation from a friend.

Jen:

Yeah, they're very, very persuasive.

Jen:

Yeah.

Shelley:

And if you look at, , some Amazon testimonials, , , re reviews and that sort

Shelley:

of thing, you'll see that there's a mix.

Shelley:

Some love it, some not so much.

Shelley:

, and some will say, well, I had this problem, but then their

Shelley:

customer service came in.

Shelley:

And fixed everything and you feel really good about that.

Shelley:

So seeing that mix of reviews can help as well to know that they're authentic

Shelley:

and they're real, ? Absolutely.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

, the next one is no, like trust.

Shelley:

, that's the touch points.

Shelley:

We talked about that.

Shelley:

You have to find us, then you get to know us, then you begin to trust us,

Shelley:

and then you're gonna buy from us.

Shelley:

, the next one is authority.

Shelley:

Important people agree.

Shelley:

, every time we bring in research or articles that, , cement and underscore

Shelley:

everything that we talk about, we can point to that authority and say,

Shelley:

see, we're not leading you astray.

Shelley:

We were right.

Shelley:

, this is good information we're giving you.

Shelley:

So pointing to that authority figure that agrees with you, , can raise

Shelley:

you up in other people's estimation.

Shelley:

Then, , scarcity and fomo got act now because this price won't last forever.

Shelley:

, when I did my one week Black Friday, , special, it was like,

Shelley:

oh, this is, this is coming up.

Shelley:

And the last day and the last, oh, it's, it's over now.

Shelley:

And.

Shelley:

. So people are like, oh, I gotta get it.

Shelley:

And so many people buy on the last day because of Yeah.

Shelley:

Fear of missing

Jen:

out.

Jen:

, I, I will dip in here on scarcity and fomo, and I will

Jen:

say that it works if it's true.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

You can't do the thing where it's like resetting every

Jen:

24 hours as like a fake fo.

Jen:

Yeah, it works if it's true.

Jen:

So don't overuse it and don't use it as a slick tactic.

Jen:

Mm-hmm.

Jen:

, it works.

Jen:

If it's a hundred percent, like this is really gonna end

Shelley:

in, yeah, I can only handle five clients a month and

Shelley:

once I hit five, I can't handle anymore, so I can't sign you up.

Shelley:

So you gotta be one of the first five.

Shelley:

Be one of the first.

Shelley:

That is absolutely true, right?

Shelley:

Because if I'm doing done for you services and I only have so many, , , a

Shelley:

month, then that is a scarcity.

Shelley:

That's true.

Shelley:

It's true.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

. So shortcuts to decision making, that's what all of this is leading to.

Shelley:

You are helping people make a decision.

Shelley:

You are giving them the information they need to latch onto to say, yes,

Shelley:

this is right for me, or no, it's not.

Shelley:

, in a confused prospect never buys.

Shelley:

So make sure you're offering a lot of clarity as to why you offer what

Shelley:

you offer, how it can help people and what their outcomes are going.

Shelley:

Absolutely.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Jen:

So if you enjoyed today's lesson, , and you are interested

Jen:

in getting your content going on a consistent basis, I highly encourage

Jen:

you to get Shelley's content framework.

Jen:

So that you can schedule consistent content and get

Jen:

it out there week after week.

Jen:

Shelley has been great at helping us get the Women Conquer Business Show back

Jen:

and happening again week after week.

Jen:

for, for a year, for almost an year.

Jen:

We are so proud.

Jen:

So, , be sure to check that out.

Jen:

The proof is in the pudding.

Jen:

We've been doing it following the framework.

Jen:

Ah, haven.

Jen:

Did we follow it?

Jen:

seems we followed it for a year.

Jen:

, absolutely we do.

Jen:

So, yeah.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

Absolutely.

Shelley:

That's what keeps us on track.

Shelley:

Even when, even when we're both late showing up and we're like, we got

Shelley:

10 minutes, let's get this going.

Shelley:

And we, we started on time, didn't we?

Shelley:

Yeah, we did , we get, we do it.

Shelley:

Our framework works, but also what works.

Shelley:

If you wanna understand your marketing better, see where you're at, know where

Shelley:

you're going and how to get there, go to Jen's free marketing, self-assessment,

Shelley:

and I'm gonna put that in the chat box.

Shelley:

And it's also in the, , scroll it.

Shelley:

Send fox.com/wcb.

Shelley:

, take that self-assessment, see where you're at, see what help you

Shelley:

need and where you need to improve.

Shelley:

Whoop, yeah.

Jen:

Are we, , are we ready for some tweaks of the week?

Jen:

Tweak it,

Shelley:

girl.

Shelley:

Okay.

Jen:

So, , this week we're gonna talk about Hello Audio.

Jen:

This is something that I, , so what I've been working on in the background,

Jen:

, I'm not ready to show it yet.

Jen:

Shelley really wanted me to talk about Learn Worlds today

Jen:

because it looks super cool.

Jen:

It looks super cool, and I'm, I'm building out courses and things,

Jen:

, community cause I'm building a Women Conquer business community.

Jen:

And one of the tools that I have added because I realized that my audio courses

Jen:

were too hard to get to, and I wanted it easier not only for me to record and

Jen:

and get it on there, but I also wanted it to be easier for people to get to it.

Jen:

And so I'm using a tool called Hello Audio.

Jen:

I learned about this via member.

Jen:

, , because Member Vault was using it for their private podcast.

Jen:

And I was like, oh my God, this is so easy for me to get their private podcast.

Jen:

How are they doing this?

Jen:

So it, it really is like, I can set up a folder and , and it can even

Jen:

be like Zoom calls or whatever.

Jen:

You can connect your zoom to it.

Jen:

You can connect.

Jen:

A Dropbox or, , , a, a Google Drive, , and drop it in there and it'll make

Jen:

audio outta it, . So it's pretty fancy.

Jen:

It's pretty neat.

Jen:

It is not very expensive.

Jen:

So if you have like, audio courses or any sort of audio content

Jen:

that you wanna share, , Oh, why is the billing not showing up?

Jen:

Okay.

Jen:

, it is, , for one private course or , one private feed.

Jen:

So then you could have as many lessons, as many audio lessons on

Jen:

there as you wanted within one feed.

Jen:

, it comes out to, I think it's $17 a month is what I'm paying, cuz it's

Jen:

on a monthly, , or , $14 a month.

Jen:

I think that's like $170 a year.

Jen:

if you do that So monthly, , I'm using it.

Jen:

What I have over here, I had to open a separate window cuz it would do this.

Jen:

So the way it looks is I have, , women conquer business

Jen:

audio courses that's separate from the Women Conquer Business Show.

Jen:

, this is gonna be part of the membership.

Jen:

, and I have some courses in here.

Jen:

, there's a universal link that will show a QR code to people and they can subscribe.

Jen:

. , and it also, the way that, the reason that this is so easy, is because

Jen:

it goes into the podcast player that you're already using, and that's

Jen:

what I loved about this when I tried to do this before I had to do it.

Jen:

and then people had to download a separate app.

Jen:

And then like, if they're not opening the app, they don't know

Jen:

if there's anything extra, , any new episodes or anything like that.

Jen:

, this connects to Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts.

Jen:

, podcast addict, if you're on an Android.

Jen:

. , it also does Spotify and so I have open, here is the Spotify page for

Jen:

Women Conquer Business audio courses.

Jen:

And you'll notice here that there's a little padlock, , which is like, I can't

Jen:

play it unless I am a member of it.

Jen:

, and then you click get Access and , and it'll take you, I don't

Jen:

know where it takes you . Oh yeah.

Jen:

I can connect my account.

Jen:

, and, and it works that way, , for people who are in the membership.

Jen:

Like this would be included.

Jen:

I think I have like a, a payment page or something connected through Hello

Jen:

Audio, but the real intention is, to have people who are in the membership.

Jen:

Then this is like an extra, so if you like to create audio and you,

Jen:

but you haven't figured out a way to do a private podcast, this is

Jen:

the easiest way that I have found.

Jen:

And I have tried lots of other places, , and not had maybe the most success.

Jen:

So I will say that I like Hello Audio.

Jen:

It's super.

Jen:

. And if you're interested in this, , definitely give it a shot and we'll put

Jen:

that in the show flow, in the show notes.

Jen:

, it's Hello Audio fm.

Shelley:

All right.

Shelley:

Hello Audio

Jen:

fm.

Jen:

Did you know about that one, Shelley?

Jen:

I

Shelley:

did not.

Shelley:

Or news to me.

Jen:

It's a new breaking news for Shelley

Shelley:

breaking news, and it's both.

Shelley:

It's awesome.

Shelley:

Very good.

Shelley:

Yeah.

Shelley:

, there have been, , courses that I've taken that I wished I could listen to

Shelley:

while I was going for a walk because, , I don't wanna have to sit, plop myself

Shelley:

down in front of the computer and watch a course, , , And that's all I'm doing.

Shelley:

I feel like couldn't I couldn't I do this while I'm walking and then I could

Shelley:

listen to it and, and, and, and more than once and I wouldn't be sitting

Shelley:

in front of my computer forever doing nothing else, which I hate to do.

Shelley:

And then, and then I don't end up doing the

Jen:

course, especially now that you're working out

Jen:

Yeah.

Shelley:

Don't remind me do.

Shelley:

Anyway.

Shelley:

Yes.

Shelley:

Are you ready?

Shelley:

Hello Audio.

Shelley:

Let's do you some inspirational stuff.

Shelley:

Now, this is not too far from our training today cuz I grabbed

Shelley:

a bunch of cool quotes.

Shelley:

I love quotes.

Shelley:

, but these fit in with our training today.

Shelley:

Aristotle said character may almost be called the most

Shelley:

effective means of persuasion.

Shelley:

Abraham Lincoln said, if you wish to win a man over to your ideas,

Shelley:

first, make him your friend.

Shelley:

Hmm.

Shelley:

Dean Rusk said one of the best ways to persuade others is with

Shelley:

your ears by listening to them.

Shelley:

Oh, yeah.

Shelley:

And Blaze Pascal said, people are usually more convinced by reasons

Shelley:

they discovered themselves than by those found out by others.

Shelley:

So asking questions and listen.

Shelley:

to the answers and to the language being used is your best marketing

Shelley:

tool, . And, , it's gonna make you a, a better coach, consultant, and business

Jen:

person.

Jen:

I totally agree with you.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

When, when you said the best way to persuade others is with

Jen:

your ears by listening to them.

Jen:

I will say that this is my, probably my biggest persuasive

Jen:

tip is related to that when I.

Jen:

Proposals.

Jen:

I don't have a one size fits all proposal for people.

Jen:

Mm-hmm.

Jen:

, I really make it tailored and I can't tell you how many contracts I have

Jen:

gotten because everybody I was up against had some cookie cutter thing

Jen:

and mine was like, well, when we talked , you mentioned this, this, this, this.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

, and then the feedback I get is I felt like I was really hurt and

Jen:

that was really important to me.

Jen:

Mm-hmm.

Jen:

. So making sure that you.

Jen:

listening and responding is, is one of the biggest things that you can do.

Shelley:

And this is not for business, but this is for

Shelley:

your relationships as well.

Shelley:

That's life.

Shelley:

Do you wanna improve any relationship?

Shelley:

Asking good questions, open-ended questions, , and allowing the other

Shelley:

person to explore their feelings with you in, in a safe space is, is the

Shelley:

best way to build a relationship.

Shelley:

Absolutely.

Jen:

Yeah.

Jen:

. So before we sign off for the week, I wanna say, , thank

Jen:

you so much for listening.

Jen:

If you have any questions or comments or software you want us to talk

Jen:

about, you can email us at hello women conquer biz.com and we'll do

Jen:

our best to get it into the show.

Jen:

We've gotten a lot of really great tips and we've talked about some

Jen:

things that have come from email.

Jen:

and, , yeah, I would love to hear what everybody thinks.

Jen:

And thank you so much, , for watching and for those of you in

Jen:

your ears, thank you for listening.

Shelley:

Thank you for joining the Women Conquer Business Podcast, posted

Shelley:

by Shelley Carney and Jen McFarland.

Shelley:

Please subscribe and leave a comment or question regarding your most challenging

Shelley:

content creation or business problem.

Shelley:

Then share this podcast with family and friends.

Shelley:

So they can find the support they need to expand their brand and

Shelley:

share their message with the world.

Shelley:

Check the show notes for links to valuable resources and come back again next week.

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