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Episode 78: Church Leadership Q&A: Insights and Strategies for Pastoring Today
Episode 7823rd May 2024 • Pivot Podcast • Faith+Lead
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All your questions answered in this Q&A session about making space for reflection, leading people who are in conflict during an election year, and the essence of Biblical discipleship.

Questions that listeners asked include:

* Q1: “I always have such good intentions for making the most of the summer to take time to not just be busy doing the ministry, but to be intentional about spending time praying and thinking about my ministry. But then I get super busy. Any suggestions for how I could actually build in some rhythms for taking a wider view of my ministry this summer and follow through with it?”

* Q2: “During 2020 my congregation almost fell apart because of political polarization and it feels like things are going to get really bad again this year. How can I keep my church whole during this election season?”

* Q3: “I hear you all talking a lot about discipleship. I don’t want to burden my people with more stuff when they’re already exhausted.”

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Transcripts

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Terri: We're in 2024. We're four years past the shutdown. And yet I think many of us are still operating on this kind of frantic going and producing and doing things. And I wonder if our hope is in the church having metrics change, whatever the metrics would be, attendance or whatever budgets, or if the hope is God, what are you calling us to? And are we listening? Hello everyone, I'm Terri Elton.

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Dwight: I'm Dwight Zscheile.

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Alicia: And I'm Alicia Granholm. Welcome to the Pivot podcast. If you are new here, this is the podcast where we talk about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world.

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Dwight: Today's episode will be a Q&A session. We'll give insight to questions frequently asked of us and our team here at Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead.Today's questions all have a similar theme of wondering how do I live as a Christian leader today? So let's jump in.

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Terri: So I got the first question. With summer approaching, it's often a time to think about our time, right? And our new patterns. So for those of us that are going into this, how to be intentional about this time, specifically thinking, how do we spend time praying and thinking about ministry if we're a ministry leader in our summer time because it's so easy to get super busy? So any suggestions we might have to talk about how these actual rhythms help us give a bigger view of ministry as we go into summer? What do you think?

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Alicia: Yes, I have some thoughts. Um, so I have discovered in my own life and working with a lot of leaders that if it's not on the calendar, it's not going to happen. And so I think as leaders, we are often really good about, uh, keeping our priorities and our commitments right with others when it's on our calendar. Um, but we really can struggle with keeping commitments to ourselves. And so I've developed habits of, uh, you know, if, if it's important to me and I want to do it, then it needs to have a place on my calendar, because if it's on there, then I'm going to do it. I've already held time for it. I'm going to stay committed to that. And I really do think it's an element of a mindset shift that, um, especially when we think about wanting to create space for ourselves to really not just committed to the things of ministry, but also committed to thinking about our ministry and creating space to step back for our time, for reflection, for prayer, for, um, discerning, you know, um, it really does take time. And so when we don't make the commitment to ourselves to keep, uh, you know, to hold ourselves accountable to that, then it can easily just we don't do it right. Like the whole summer can go by. And suddenly the things that we had hoped to have time to do, um, we, we just haven't gotten around to doing. And so, uh, I have found that whenever there are anything, whether it's, uh, time for reflection or, um, or even just my own spiritual practices, that for me, if it's not written down, it's not going to get done. And so my calendar is my best friend when it comes to really, uh, making those commitments to developing those habits of, um, of creating space for, uh, kind of stepping back and really taking time, um, to, for whatever it is that, that we want to be able to do, especially in the summer months, it's often a bit of a different rhythmin ministry. And so, um, yeah, I really, uh, I just think calendars are the best friend of ministry leaders for that kind of thing in a very, like, practical sense.

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Terri: So it's funny, this last week I was talking with a mom with three very active boys, kind of elementary school down to preschool, and we were just talking about summer, and she's like, I am looking forward to having time where this is just like beach day, or this is just like, we're not going to sign up for a million sports or camps or whatever. And it was interesting more than what she was going to do with her schedule. I mean, there were intentionalities like, you were just saying, Alicia, but it was really fun for me to hear her say, I need a different rhythm in the summer. I want to spend time with my boys. I want us to play in the sand or I want to. If it's a nice day, be able to just pack up a lunch and go to the park or something, and I, I it got me thinking about my own life as a leader. And what am I modeling for the people in our congregations? What am I modeling for my family or for other leaders that I'm I'm with and I am one where I need balcony time. I need time to just get out of the daily things and get to get space where I can reflect on. What has happened and what needs to happen going forward for my own sense of thriving and well-being. And I don't know how else to do that. I do like what you're saying, Alicia, about time. And sometimes that's just like, I'm not going to have any meetings on this day, and I'm going to just do what I feel like needs to be done for the sake of my own soul.

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S4: Mhm. Mhm.

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Dwight: Yeah. I think the word time has come up a lot in this conversation. And you know, it brings to mind something that one of our former colleagues here on the faculty at Luther Seminary, Pat Keifert, said, he said you know if if you're a leader and you are primarily reacting, you're not leading, you're following. And so, you know, I think he's also often said if you, as a spiritual leader in a congregation, aren't actually focused on the spiritual work and don't have time for the spiritual work, then it's unlikely it's going to get done right. And he would say, um, what we have to give away is the church is time, right? Eternal life. And so if the church is not able to and if its leaders are not able to, um, to inhabit a different rhythm of, of time, then, you know, we're not really no different from the busyness of the world. And so, so I want to just unpack that, you know, with both of you a bit, because it's easy to say that. And I know ministry leaders can, um, you know, we'll hear that and say, yeah, but my to do list or all of the stuff that I have to do to kind of keep the machine of ministry going, and probably with fewer volunteers and maybe fewer staff and resources then may have been the case in earlier times. And so how do we navigate that realistically? And, you know, we continue to hear a lot of exhaustion from ministry leaders for very understandable, legitimate reasons. Right. They're responsible for tending a whole kind of way of doing ministry and a whole organizational, institutional, um, approach that is under stress right now. That's really under stress. So what's the the opportunity in that? And how might we as leaders, um, strategically, intentionally, um, behave differently so as actually to model something for our people if they are all consumed by busyness in the same way which which many of them are not all of them, some retired people who have time on their hands, but many people are in American society at least, are, you know, they are overcommitted. And that's just the pace and some of the insanity, I think, of, of our of our life right now. Um, so I wonder, you know, for, for both of you, what do you think about, um, about that dimension? And it really ties into another one of the themes we're going to unpack a bit today around discipleship.

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Terri: Two things came to mind as you were talking. One is where does our hope come from? And I my sense is that. We're in 2024. We're four years past the shutdown. And yet I think many of us are still operating on this kind of frantic going and producing and doing things. And I wonder. If our hope is in the church, having metrics change, whatever the metrics would be, attendance or whatever budgets. Or if the hope is God, what are you calling us to? And are we listening? Because to me, the hope that's tied to what you're saying. Dwight is in the resurrected Christ. It's it's not in the church as an institution. And so one of my things would be if I've lost my sense of hope, maybe that's where I need to start. But maybe it's also wondering where's other leaders getting hope and just having a different set of conversations about that? The other piece that came to mind as you were talking is. The joy of ministry, even on the hardest days for me, are relational moments with people. There's a woman in our congregation that I'm serving who's just walking through a hard, hard time with health of her grandkid and man, that there's no immediate hope, but she has has an up and uphill downhill crazy thing with the church where it's not always shown up for her. And right now the church is showing up and she doesn't feel alone. And I'm like, that's that was worth my whole morning having 15 minutes of a conversation and then committing to pray for her. So part of it, I wonder, is if this season of summer, if this season is not also about relational connectivity and listening and walking with people, because I think that's also what energizes us as leaders.

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S4: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

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Alicia: Um I can't help but think about how uh so our oldest is in first grade and um I'm, I mean your kids are older, so you're not going to be surprised by what I'm about to say. But I'm constantly amazed at the things that he comes home with and says and does that in no way, shape or form reflect our family values. And it is a daily, daily, daily commitment, right? To be like, oh, like, you know, to coach him, to, uh, to share different ways of responding or acting or behaving or talking about things or treating others that is much more reflective of Jesus than of the barrage of influences that he is. Um, you know that he gets at school every day. Um, and so I also just can't even help but think about from a bit of a different perspective, but just that notion that, like, even as a parent, right, I, I want to be daily ready to help coach him because it is really a daily like, you know, I mean, it just it's a bit astonishing. I know it's not going anywhere. It will be this. Right. But just that. But um, so I see it in our home every day. Right. And as a, as a leader, it also is such a reminder as like why? Why do we gather as a church? Why is why is it important for us to remind people of who they are in Christ? Like what? What is salvation today? I mean, just all the what we would say, you know, just kind of the foundational things. But when I see it every like the need for that reminder every day in my home for kids and, you know, as adults, it might not be necessarily like an everyday thing that is essential, although I would my own life says that it is. Um, it is such a reminder that people need this reminder. We all do. We all need reminders. And so if if we don't have the habits as leaders, then it's really hard for us to lead communities and show up and help others to to help them remember where their focus needs to be. And, um, you know, just where their hope comes from, where their the rest comes from, where all the, you know, just the energy for everyday life, the wisdom for everyday life. Um, and um, and so to me, it's just such a reminder that that as leaders, it has to be a priority for us.

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S4: It is.

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Dwight: So important. And, you know, um, it comes to mind for me, just the reality that formation is not optional. We're all being formed. So we.

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S4: Are.

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Dwight: I love how John Mark comer says everyone has a rabbi. Who's your rabbi? Right. Who is that? You know, influence influencer in your life that's actually deeply shaping you, maybe in an unreflected ways. And so so all the more then the intentionality around, um, making sure that we are normed toward Jesus and His way. And, you know, Mark Scandrett, who's a really wonderful teacher and writer who's experimented a lot with helping regular people follow Jesus, primarily by just trying stuff. Right. Um, he says, if we were in a conversation with him just last week and he, he talked about, you know, for pastoral leaders and clergy, how can you do the minimal on the kind of machine of ministry, right? All the stuff that can be can consume so much time and energy so as to create capacity not only in yourself as a leader, but also in the community to listen to God's voice, to pray to, to think about how do we follow Jesus in daily life. And and that will involve disappointing some expectations, for sure. Um, and yet, I think we're at a point where people are so maxed out in our society that there would be a collective. Sigh of relief if we gave people in churches permission not to do so much and, you know, put some things on sabbatical, some committees or ministries or programs or whatever, and see if we miss them. Right. And rather than feel like we have to kind of sustain all this stuff, and honestly, if we're honest about a lot of all of that activity, is it really forming disciples of Jesus in today's culture? Um, maybe. Maybe not. Right. Maybe if you were designing an organization to form Disciples of Jesus in contemporary culture, you might not create those some of those things like that rummage sale maybe, right, or some such and such committee. Right. So, so I think one of our messages to you listeners and, and viewers out there is, you know, we really want to invite you into the discernment around what can you put aside, even if in a temporary way, even if in an experimental way, in order to actually free up more capacity to listen to God, be present with God, to abide, you know, in the presence of God, if you are not abiding in the presence of God, it's going to be very hard for you to help your community abide in the presence of God.

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Alicia: Okay, our second question.

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S4: Is this.

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Alicia: During 2020? My congregation almost fell apart because of political polarization, and it feels like things are going to get really bad again this year. How can I keep my church whole during this election season?

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Dwight: Well, you may not be able to. I think we should be really honest about the forces in our society and in our culture right now that are really polarizing people and tearing people apart, and those are so present in the life of the church. And, you know, I think politics functions religiously for a lot of people in American society right now, both on the left and the right. In other words, it it has the kind of spiritual energy and sense of belonging and meaning and identity and all that that religious faith normally provides or can provide for people. So how do we actually reframe the conversation? This gets back into, you know, how can we invite people into a different narrative, a different set of practices than what the culture is shaping us in catechizing us into all the time? So I think to me that's a biblical and theological, um, invitation, right, to dig in to that so that so that the stories that are shaping the life of the church, the way we take up the very real dilemmas and questions of politics are primarily ones that we bring a Christian, biblical, and theological lens to.

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Terri: So you all know this about me. Those listeners may not, but one of my favorite words is and right, am I true? Yes. Yes. Correct. And and so I think part of what I've learned in the complexities of so much of our lives today is this or that is not helpful because rarely, rarely is it good or bad or black or white. It's usually more gray or at least complicated or or there's complexities underneath. And so there's two things that come to mind as I think about this next year ahead. One is. To say this is true, and there are other things that are true, and sometimes those things create tension for us. Right? Yes, this may be true. And we need to figure out how to feed the homeless or whatever. Like there's there's multiple things at play here and how to see I just said it how to invite people to, to not default to this or that.

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S4: Mhm.

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Terri: And to think there's multiple answers, there's multiple responses, there's multiple reasons, because then I don't have to be for or against you. I can actually say, Alicia, I hear you're concerned about this and I'm concerned about this, and maybe we can both be concerned about these things and there's tensions, but at least I don't have to give up this thing that's really important to me. So I think that's one thing I'm working on overall that I think comes to play here. I think the other piece for me is usually connected to the commitments that are behind whatever the zealous idea is, is a story.

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S4: Um.

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Terri: So and we've said this before, but I don't think we can stress it enough. Okay, I hear that immigration is a hot button for you. Why is that? Um, can you tell me more? What is it around that? And can I just listen? Um, I don't have to. Then create my argument to change their mind. But I think to get deeper because I'm amazed. At how willing. When you ask someone to tell a story, they might be to tell you about a hurt. Or something that has they've been felt violated or something on. And man, that helps me both understand and be more human together. Mhm.

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S4: Mhm.

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Terri: So those are the two pieces that I'm thinking about today.

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Alicia: Well and Terry as you share that I think that you're absolutely right. And I can't help but think about how right it really. Um in some ways is a theological issue for those of us in the church, um, in that um. Right. What is the invitation in seasons of, um, a lot of, uh, you know, polarization and, um, combative conversations? Um, but what might it look like if for those of us who are Christian, what might it look like if we genuinely believe that everyone is actually created in the image of God and deserves to be treated as such, like, how does that inform how we show up? How we get curious, how we, um, talk with each other, how we treat others, especially those that disagree with us. Right. Like, um, and so to me, there there is a deep spiritual issue at play because, um, if we each approached our, our interactions with people from that place of. The reality is everyone is created in the image of God. So how does that invite me to live and show up differently, um, than if I'm just, uh, really annoyed at someone else's opinion and perspective?

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Terri: So I have a story to go with that I have two girls that are grown now and they get along just fine. That's the end of the story. They grew up and they get along, but they're three years apart. And when they were young, my youngest daughter had this great imagination, and she had a couple imaginary friends that lived in our backyard that she would talk to all the time. And she would come in and make these statements and her sister would be. But you're wrong. Yes. And one could say that is one way to look at it. It was also her imaginary world. So who knows what was right or wrong. But what was interesting is it took me a while to convince the older sibling that what's more important, having the right answer or being in relationship with your sister, that your having to push a right or wrong answer shuts down her wanting to engage with you. And you're having a good relationship. And you know, these were on things that weren't as hot topics, I think, as today. But it's interesting. That kind of stuck, and both of them had to learn that over time that they see the world differently. And but what does it mean to be in relationship versus, quote, right by whatever your thinking is? And I think that's the same question we all have. And I think many of us have erred like my, you know, five year old daughter with her three year old sister or whatever, you know, two year old sister about I'm going to be right versus being in a relationship. And I'd love to just challenge people to stay in relationship.

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Dwight: Well, and to me, that the core relationship that needs to ground this unity is in Christ, his relationship with Christ. And you think about, you know, I belong to Cephas, I belong to Apollos, I belong to Paul. You know, you think about Paul just saying no, like there is one Christ.

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Terri: You're saying we're not the first.

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Dwight: We're not.

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S4: The first. Do this. Come on.

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Dwight: Belong to Trump. I belong to Biden, you know, etc. like that's kind of how it's playing out, right? And and so to say, you know, we have a unity in Christ that is our fundamental underlying identity, that is the foundation of, of our identity and that actually can withstand, you know, a lot of stretching, right, of different perspectives and, um, political philosophies and all kinds of things. Um, I think in many churches, helping people claim that deep underlying identity in Christ requires a lot of work. I mean, it's because the culture is always forming them. Otherwise to really be able to help people do that. And so, you know, one way to do that is I love your listening, like really inviting people to share stories, um, you know, practices like Braver Angels and other, um, conversation based ways to get people sharing their stories across these divides within a fairly, you know, carefully constructed environment where there's some real ground rules and, um, you know, what that looks like in each context will look different. But where you're creating container as church for people to actually both claim an identity in Christ, recognize that, but then also create space to hear each other's stories empathetically rather than judgmentally. Um, but I want to say this this will be a hard year for a lot of churches. I mean, it really is. And that's across the whole political spectrum, right? Um, it is, it is everyone. Um, so and.

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Terri: I feel like over the doorways to our churches, we used to have a sign that you're now entering the mission field as you left. But I think as you come in, we're all sinners.

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S4: Yeah.

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Terri: Like we all need this salvation. And and I, I think. That can be freeing.

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S4: Yeah. Mhm.

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Terri: We all need God's love.

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Dwight: Yeah. That is the that is the foundation receiving God's God's grace in the midst of that. Mhm. Yeah. Well so I'm going to move us on to question three. Um I hear you all talking a lot about discipleship. I don't want to burden my people with more stuff when they're already exhausted. So what is this discipleship thing mean in such a time as this?

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Terri: So actually had this come up in a Bible study that I was doing at church, it was interesting. It was we had a, a group of us doing a the online course for Faith+Lead on Lutheran theology, and we had a Lutheran pastor. We had a number of people that grew up in different traditions. So we're really curious about this and have actually experienced more law kind of environments around discipleship and church. And this pastor really put words to part of our conversation. He's like, I always struggled with how to do discipleship that didn't make it feel like law or works like, this is how you get to God. And it opened up this beautiful conversation because a few other people said, yes, but I need to know how to pray. I, I come from a tradition where we didn't read the Bible and I don't know how to read it. And so it it was a fun, fruitful conversation among a group of sojourners all trying to wonder about what does it mean to live in God's love, loving God and our neighbor in a real, concrete way? Uh, and so part of the thing for me is it depends depends on who's there. It depends on all kinds of histories of people. But I think the piece for me that I want to stress is not helping people develop spiritual habits. Practices, have access to the biblical text to have conversations about faith and daily life with real people. Not doing that is not an option. People need those elements. And so. I think we have to figure this thing out to not make it worse or law. But just like when I got married, I want to know other people, balanced all the stuff to stay in a fruitful relationship with their spouse, right? Or with their kids. It's just like that for me. It's a relationship tending kind of peace for me.

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S4: Mhm. Mhm.

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Alicia: Well and I can't help but think that you know. It really depends on how we see discipleship, right? Because yes, there could be a perspective of seeing it as something more to do on top of all the other things. Or maybe it's actually an invitation to reorient our imagination about what discipleship is, because really, discipleship hopefully, is how do I follow Jesus? Like, what does it look like for Jesus to be influential in my life, for Jesus to help me reorient my life for. Right? Like if, uh, salvation isn't just for our for eternity? Um, but I liken it to. Well. Eternity's already begun, and the--

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Terri: The Kingdom of God is here, Alicia.

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Alicia: The Kingdom of God is right. Someone once said that. And so what does it look like for my life today to be oriented around the way of Jesus? Well, there are some practices that might help us, like prayer or fasting or, you know, a variety of things reading Scripture, knowing what the voice of God sounds like in our life, being communal discernment. Um, and so if discipleship is really about learning the way of Jesus and learning how to follow Jesus, uh, so that. Right. Because I do believe God cares about the things that keep me up at night. Um, and, uh, and and everybody else, for that matter. Um, but if I don't know how to be in relationship with God or be in relationship with other Christians or, um, to hear God's voice, then then yep, it is just one more thing to do. But if Jesus actually makes a difference for my everyday life, which I believe he does. Uh, then I want to know how to how like, how does Jesus do that? Well, that to me, that's what discipleship is, is, is learning the rhythms of Jesus, learning the rhythms of grace, learning what it looks like to live a life, following Jesus in my everyday life. Because I do believe my everyday life matters to God and so. And that God can make a difference in my everyday life. And but if if discipleship is just like a bunch more stuff we got to do, that doesn't impact our daily living. Well, for sure, then that's just exhausting. But what if following Jesus is less exhausting? There's a scripture verse in there.

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Dwight: Yes, absolutely. Well, and this is that paradox in the New Testament of, you know, when we belong to Christ, you know, Paul talks about himself as a doulos, as a slave to Christ, as a servant of Christ. So we're giving up a certain kind of freedom. Um, Luther would talk about this. As you know, we're bound. Right? But but in that is a free is a freedom to, um, of the freedom of grace, the freedom of of being able to live a different way of life, of being able to love our neighbors. And I think a lot of people are looking for freedom right now, but it's not the freedom that the culture is offering, which is the promise. You can just have more of everything. Right? And I think, um, people are realizing that that's a that's a dead end, that's really, uh, a death dealing kind of promise for us and for the planet. Right? Yeah. Um, so in the congregation that I'm a part of, we have what we call small churches, which are like home based small groups. And so I'm in my wife and I are in one of those. And the couple that leads us, the small church that we're in, um, one the guy just, you know, just before Easter, got diagnosed with a really aggressive form of leukemia. And so we've been walking with them in our small church and congregation, but walking with them through this really, you know, um, horrendous season of chemotherapy and a very real possibility that he may not survive. And what's been so powerful is because these these two, this couple, because they are disciples, they have been able to take that journey with their relationship with God as the primary relationship, to claim the stories that they've studied over the course of their lives, scriptural stories, the Psalms, um, the the stories of God's promises and to really dwell in those stories. And it's been a really hard time for them, of course, but they're very clear that we feel closer to God and each other and our whole community, our family, our friends, our neighbors, our, you know, like all our people, um, our church through this, this process. And, um, and it's been it's just been such a powerful witness. It's, you know, that even when life throws the worst at us, um, that, you know, we have this identity as followers of Jesus, of being claimed by God. And we have this story that we can live in that actually gives hope. Um, and so, you know, I share that just to, just to say that, um, a lot of people are going through hard things right now and in our lives and in, in our world. Um, how might the story of Jesus, the story of the gospel, the stories of God's promises, really free us to, um, to live through those faithfully no matter what the outcome might be? And, um, because we know ultimately what the outcome is, eternally right in terms of nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. So. So I think as you as a leader, are having this conversation with your church around what it means to follow Jesus. Discipleship may not even be a word that your church uses a lot. You can talk about it in whatever way you want. Um, but I do think this is this is the thing. Like this is kind of what the church should be about, right? It's the main thing and it hasn't been the main thing. A lot of churches, um, for many, many years. Right. So, so if you're trying to lean into this and invite people more deeply into it, it may be a stretch for people because church hasn't been about that. It hasn't been about these kinds of concrete practices of learning how to follow an alternative story and a and to follow Jesus as Lord rather than all the other things that want to be our Rabbi or Lord. Right? And in today's world, and finding freedom and grace in that. And so, um, so that's a culture change. And it's one that, you know, like any culture change takes practices, stories, um, early adopters, you know, trying things on over a period of time.

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Terri: As you were talking, I was thinking. What goes with this way of life that you talked about, Alicia? Is a vision of abundant living.

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S4: And.

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Terri: Abundant living, no matter the circumstances. And I think, man, isn't that a gospel word for today. So many people, myself included, is like, what is a what is abundant living look like? What is full, meaningful, rich? Not by my bank account or what car I drive or whatever rich, but one that at the end of the day went. That was a good day. Because, you know, I had these relationships I had sometimes I find people that have death closer to them because of some diagnosis. Just soak in everything so much richer, and they teach me to do the same. And I think how what a gift it could be for us as people of faith, of people of God, of God followers, Jesus followers to be witnessing, to soaking in every day in the abundance of God's love for the world, rather than scarcity rather than polarization rather than these other other things. And I know, at least for me, when life gets hard, I need those practices, those rhythms, to keep me anchored. And and I think that's what we're asking congregations to, to imagine, no matter what they call it.

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Alicia: Um, I love, um, what Jesus is quoted as saying in Matthew 11, come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. And so I think when we're tempted to think of discipleship or learning the ways of Jesus or following Jesus is like an add on, uh, to me this is an invitation to. Wonder and be curious about Jesus's promise that actually. It's easy and light. Uh, comparative right to, uh, to the poles of the world.

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Terri: We've covered a lot today. I hope you listeners get some imagination about, as you think about your intentionality for yourself and for your congregations or communities that you lead to. Think about the summer as we look ahead to the polarized time, may you think about what it means to live as as a body together across difference, and to wonder what the practices of a way of life with Jesus might do, both today and into the future. So thanks so much for joining us today. In our next episode, we're going to continue to explore the key pivots of the church and what we need to do today. So thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next week.

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Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead.org.

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