Michael Ross interviews Mustafa, an LGBT activist from Istanbul, who shares his experiences and the challenges faced by the LGBT community in Turkey. Mustafa highlights the oppressive environment that has developed over the years, particularly since the banning of pride parades in 2015, which has led to increased government scrutiny and discrimination against queer individuals. Despite these challenges, Mustafa emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces and solidarity among the community, noting that activism has become more vital than ever. The discussion touches on the impact of conservative government policies, the underground LGBT scene in Istanbul, and the role of cultural expressions, such as music and drag shows, in fostering resilience. Mustafa's perspective offers hope for the future, encouraging listeners to remain engaged and supportive in the fight for equality and recognition.

The LGBT community in Turkey used to have one of the biggest pride parades in the region, but in recent years political changes have affected the community directly. It is no longer legal to organize the pride parade and other events, and the country has even stopped participating in the Eurovision Song Contest due to Conchita’s win. Yet life goes on, and the local underground scenes are thriving. Join us for a talk with the local LGBT Turkish activist, Mustafa Sarıyılmaz.

Mustafa, a prominent LGBT activist from Istanbul, shares his experiences navigating life and activism in a country where conservative policies have increasingly marginalized the queer community. The conversation delves into the past and present state of LGBT rights in Turkey, highlighting the transformation of public spaces once welcoming to pride parades into environments of oppression. Mustafa recounts how the vibrant pride events of 2014, which attracted over 100,000 attendees, have been replaced by a suffocating silence, as authorities have imposed bans on public demonstrations and events. He emphasizes the creation of safe spaces within Istanbul, where the LGBT community can gather, but also acknowledges the oppressive atmosphere that looms over everyday existence for queer individuals in Turkey.

The discussion also touches on the challenges faced by those in public service who risk their jobs by being open about their sexual orientations. Mustafa recounts stories of teachers and police officers who were dismissed due to exposure as LGBT individuals, often through dating apps that have become double-edged swords of connection and risk. The influence of conservative religious ideologies on the government’s stance towards the LGBT community is a recurring theme, illustrating how these beliefs shape policies that enforce silence and stigmatization.

Amidst the struggles, Mustafa remains hopeful, showcasing the resilience of the LGBT community in Turkey. He discusses the strengthening of solidarity among activists and the underground scene’s flourishing, particularly in the realm of drag culture and electronic music. He believes that activism is not solely about protests but also about creating community, celebrating identity, and fostering connections that empower individuals. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the ongoing fight for rights and recognition, and the enduring spirit of those who dare to stand up for their existence and dignity in the face of adversity.

Takeaways:

• Mustafa discusses the oppressive environment for LGBT activists in Turkey due to government policies.
• There are safe zones in Istanbul where queer people can gather and express themselves freely.
• Since 2015, Istanbul's pride parades have been banned, reflecting a concerning political shift.
• The underground LGBT scene in Turkey remains vibrant, with increased solidarity among activists.
• Despite challenges, Mustafa emphasizes the importance of community and gratitude in activism.
• The influence of politics on LGBT issues in Turkey is significant and deeply intertwined.

Hello. This is Michael Ross with straight friendly. So our guest this time is from Turkey. Mustafa. Humans. Did I say it correct?

Much better.

Much better. Okay.

Better than some turkish people.

And Mustafa, you are an lgbt activist from Turkey, right? Yes, I am from Istanbul. I traveled once, actually only one time in Istanbul, and I really, really enjoyed it.

And I think that our listeners would love to hear and know what it's like to be an activist in Turkey and also what it means to be an lgbt person in Turkey. How life looks like on daily basis in Istanbul.

Well, we are managing somehow. The situation is not that great. Great. So we are facing lots of oppression from the government, which makes everything quite difficult.

But as a queer person from Istanbul or living in Istanbul, we created our safe zones for us. And there are some places that we go to as a queer people. The LGBTis hang around in similar places or same places, so we have our own safe zone.

But when it is real life, working or living in some places, you have to live in some specific places. Otherwise it would be super difficult.

When we talked before, something which really surprised me is the fact that for people who are from the community and work for the government or even teachers, it can be problematic to come outside of a closet, right?

Yes. If you're working for the government or public places like schools, or if you're police officer, kind of.

And if you're exposed as an LGBTI person, then you would be dismissed. And we have some cases lately to a teacher and also a police officer who were just dismissed because they were just exposed.

How did they get exposed? Did they come outside of the closet or someone found out about them?

Some found about them through applications. Actually. Dating apps?

Yes.

And then they just exposed to the managers. And the managers just.

But how did their managers knew that they are on those dating apps?

Dating apps are known by turkish people. The thing is that they're not using it much or they are using it just to hurt people.

There are some straight people who are using those dating applications to meet people, to steal their stuff and money if they have. And if those people are from their work or. So they just, like, expose their situation to the manager or in the office they are in.

So they are dismissed because of the. There is a clause for the public servants misbehaving through the moral and ethical situations.

So they are using that clause towards the LGBTI members and they dismiss their duties.

Wow. It's really scary. Like, it shows that the dating apps are not necessarily a safe zone, right?

They're not. Yeah. Well, they used to be but now there are some kind of gangs, just new kind of, you know, theft.

Yes.

So, yeah, they're not as safe as they used to be.

Has this situation always been like that? Because from what I know, it was also easier in the past to organize the gay parades, right?

Yes. In the past, it was, like, way, way better. Because Istanbul had the biggest pride parades around Europe and the Middle east region.

I think it's shocking because many times, I think, especially here in Israel, we feel like things are progressing and also in some other areas in the world. But I think that Turkey is an interesting example of place which actually, the issue was quite open and visible for the public. But something has.

Has been changed. What, in your opinion, happened? Why did it change?

And everything they do now is all related to the religious backgrounds. So whenever they are using something, they are using the Islam to just oppress and to ban stuff.

And they're using this for the last five years quite excessively.

So they're basically using the religion as a kind of reason or excuse, maybe, for those things.

That is quite true. And till this year, we thought they were only banning the pride parade.

You can have your events in, like, closed doors, you know, like, the concert halls or just, like, some halls where you can have your, you know, panels and seminars, but you cannot have your events out in public because we have.

Just, like, in Russia, if I'm not.

Wrong, we're turning into that way. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's this sports initiative called the queer Olympics, and it was taking place for, like, three years.

And this year, when they were having the sports matches again, the people went to the area of the events.

They faced police officers and also water cannons waiting for them because they were given a paper stating that the activities are banned by the governor.

Are there any voices of known people, like celebrities or politicians in Turkey, that are against this kind of attitude of the police?

There are some celebrities, but they cannot make their voices heard a lot because it's gonna cost them losing bookings. In the end, they're gonna lose many, many regarding that.

So they are showing their support to the community by sharing lots of things, especially in pride week. They share about the pride and the rainbow flag and everything. But most of that said, is it.

Is it allowed to. To hang the flag? The rainbow flag?

It is. But again, like, depending on the place that you are in, it can create some kind of problems.

But let's say in Istanbul, right, which is more modern?

It is more modern, but again, it depends on the district that you're in, because there are some quite conservative districts and there are, like, more liberal districts and where our office is in a quite centralized place, and it's a huge LGBTI friendly neighborhood, so we didn't have any problem putting the trans flag and the rainbow flag. But one of our neighbors is a quite conservative initiative, and they called our landlord. They requested from the landlord to.

To tell us to remove the flags.

Did you remove a flag?

No.

Wow. Still there?

Yeah, of course. This is, like, something quite, like, basic stuff.

If we are gonna take out the flag just because of one stupid phone call, then what is the real thing that we are fighting for? Because we are not that visible and we are not that seen in the classical media, because turkish people love classical media.

So people watch a lot of, you know, tv, and we're not taking place in the tv. And if we do, it's all about the bad reasons that we are in, again, you know, like, LGBTI, you know, the gays have done that. Gays are like this.

You know, gays are perverts. This is. This is the. This is the saying coming out from one of the, like, ultra nationalistic and islamistic newspaper.

You know, they create weekly basis, you know, LGBTI related, like, hate news. And now Ministry of Interior just added to that, and he's also targeting lots of the LGBTI community and the associations as well now.

But, you know, I think that what we see in many regions around the world is that today, the lgbt culture is more visible in some of the places. And I think that there's a question of mainstream and underground. So I guess that in the mainstream and publicly, it is difficult.

But what about the underground scene in Istanbul?

Well, the underground scene is, like, really, really good, actually. Well, even though the things I just said might sound quite negative, I will have to say this LGBTI movement in Turkey has gotten a lot stronger.

We are in solidarity more than ever. We are collaborating. We are communicating more than ever, and we try to have each other's back at all times.

So that is one thing for the activist environment and also for the underground scene is the drag shows are super hit now. For almost, like, two years now, there is this drag Persona called Madraktish.

Mother Aktish has created this zone for the LGBTI community and also the drag community. And now they are organizing bi weekly ballroom kind of events.

They have reached quite a lot of audience, and they are now taking place in some singers, like music videos, and lately Adidas just, like, collaborated with some of the queens it is developing. And also, the things that Turkey has been through made us create more solidarity between other organizations as well.

So we are now more in touch with them, and it also gives us more kind of empowerment on the things that we do in Turkey.

You have twelve lgbt organizations.

Registered ones, yes, but with student initiatives. You know, student clubs in universities and some initiatives, and there are some family initiatives as well. The number is quite high, actually.

I guess the number should be more than 50.

50. Oh, wow. How many people live in Turkey?

Turkey has 82 million people.

Oh, wow. It's a bit bigger than Israel.

Not that much better. And only like, 20 million lives in Istanbul.

Istanbul. You said that 2 million people live there. And how many organizations?

You have three registered organizations, but with student clubs, it should be more than 20. But for like, 20 million people.

Yeah.

It is not enough.

Again, do you see that those changes, political changes, has affected also the culture. Not only the connections between the organizations, but the culture itself. Say, like in music and like that drag queen that told us about. Do you see.

I know, like in singers. Do you see that they change their lyrics about that? Do they talk about it in some hidden way? Maybe.

Actually, it is affecting quite deeply because the LGBTI movement itself is totally affected by the turkish politics. How the turkish politics are is the answer to how LGBTi movement in Turkey is.

It is almost the mirror effect that we have, but it also affected the main artists way of approaching things. And some of the most pro LGBTI friendly artists. They changed their way of making their music videos. They're more inclusive.

They are trying to add more LGBTi related content into it without having the intention of necessarily stating that they're, you know, LGBTI rights defenders, but they're. They have created this, like, change in their lyrics and everything. And also rap music is now a huge deal in Turkey as well.

And one of the rappers, he also added some views from the pride praise where pulse was attacking the activists. So it is like, quite.

Is he from the community?

He's not from the community, but he's a straight person supporting person. Yeah. Showing his support, which is super, super important for us because it created the time and the view.

And we see now we are not only having support from the LGBTI artists themselves, but also the straight artists among.

Your friends, and you're an activist. So I guess that many of your friends are also activists and people who are more visible, do they live outside of the closet?

Their families friends know about them?

That's kind of, like, complicated situation for many of the turkish people, because, as I said, turkey is, like, 82 million people, and it's, like, huge geography that we are talking about, and Istanbul is a getaway place for many LGBTI. So.

So many people from all around Turkey are moving to.

Yeah, moving to Istanbul.

Yeah, just, like, happening here. People move to Tel Aviv or to New York in the US.

That is the main thing, I guess, in big cities or, like, in big countries. So, like, you find a place which you think would be more suitable for you to live openly.

So many of those friends and people that I have, they're open to their environment, friends, and in their workplaces, but the part to be open to their families, the ratios are quite low, so they're not open. Many of them are not open to their families, but on the other hand, they're open to their day to day life.

And what about getting married and creating a family?

I guess, like, we really haven't thought about it at all, because we are in a position in Turkey. What we want is to be recognized.

By love, by law. Love, okay, no love. Only love.

What we want to have is, you know, having the sexual orientation, gender identity, and sex characteristics to be included into the turkish love.

After that, we might be able to, like, talk about the, you know, getting married and starting a family so that there are some couples, you know, after some time that I know personally, they move in together and they have their life together. But I don't know if it is, if it can be counted as, you know, starting a family or not. But there are some examples.

Yeah, but, like, not necessarily getting married in the country, but they can live together.

But also here in Israel, for instance, lgbt couples, if they want to get married, they have to go abroad, get married abroad, come back to Israel, and then it's sort of recognized. But in terms of adoption or surrogacy or other solutions for bringing families here, it's quite complicated. We have to do it abroad.

So is it the same in Turkey?

It is not the same in Turkey, because even if you're, like, gay couple getting married outside of Turkey, your marriage wouldn't be recognized in Turkey.

And what about children adopting children from abroad?

It is the thing that we have never discussed on, and I don't have any people who did that. So, as I said, our priorities are quite different. I guess we never had the opportunity to think or discuss about it.

And on a personal side of me, I wouldn't consider to get married or have kids, start a family because it is too, too straight to do, because there's this thing that we are being quite on the opposite side of it. And I really don't want to just copycat straight family model. The whole heteronormative thing that I don't want to get into.

Do you think if you were not born in Turkey, but let's say in another country, for instance, Canada. Mm hmm. Do you think that your life plans would look different in terms of family?

Most probably because the things that I would be thinking would be, like, whole different. Because I would have a whole different mindset.

Because now, basically, you have to survive. You have to fight for the most basic things.

Totally. Totally. And also, you know, living in a place where the political situation is changing a lot.

And as an LGBTI person, I really have to be into politics. Not only being an LGBT, but as a person living in Turkey, I will have to follow the politics.

And if I were born in Canada, I didn't have to follow the politics.

You didn't have to deal with it?

Yes, I didn't have to deal with anything, apparently.

Are there any politicians or people in well, position, or generally politicians who, first of all, outside of a closet, or at least they show support for the community?

There are some politicians who show their support to LGBTQ community, which is super impressive.

From the opposition only or also from equality?

From the opposition? From the government. Now, they really hate the LGBTI individuals quite, very much. So from the opposition, we have quite a big support.

You know, they raise the LGBT related issues in the parliament, and if we are working with the mayors of some municipalities, they're, like, quite pro when it comes to LGBTI related issues. They want to solve many of the things that we are facing.

But again, it's not really quite effective because they're not, like, ruling, but they're the opposition. So it takes some time. It's gonna take some time.

So she worked quite hard to be the champion on the lgbt rights because she was also subject to it. So she knew what ways should be followed. But for the MP candidate, there were only, like, two candidates, and they received many, many threats.

They had to flee the country.

From whom did they receive those threats?

Quite nationalistic, islamist background, people who are like. But it.

Was it, like, from the government or anything like that? No, it was from.

From the individuals. From the individuals. Because once you are, you know, like, out and wanting to be a politician, then you're directly on the COVID of everything.

Yes.

So you are recognized, you're exposed.

So if a person wants to be in the parliament or in the municipality, those people have to bear in mind that they're going to be exposed to the whole community, which is kind of super brave. But at the same time, with the politic tension in the country, kind of stupid.

It's difficult. It's kind of a price that you have to pay for.

Yeah. Yes.

They have to be strategic. Eventually, one of my last questions would be what kind of culture the people in Turkey, in community consume?

Like, what kind of music, bands, singers, movies. People are watching. Are you watching RuPaul's drug race by chance?

I'm a huge fan. I'm a huge fan.

Oh, Shantay, you stay.

Communities, things are quite changing.

But for the last one and one and a half years, that I can easily say, the queer dj's are super on the rise and they're playing mostly electronic and the cows music. This is the thing that we love.

Of course, it is a global trend right now, but at the same time, for the lgbt movement in Turkey, there is one non changing thing we love nineties turkish pop songs.

Oh, really? Yes.

Nineties are a huge different thing that we all love. Whenever there is, like, nineties party, we all go there. It's like, huge, huge thing for us.

Turkey is also participating in the Eurovision, right?

Yeah, we used to.

Not anymore. I'm asking. I have no idea.

You're kidding.

Seriously, I do like the Eurovision. Okay. I'm not the biggest fan. I'm sorry. I do like it.

How dare you?

I did. I did go to the Eurovision this year, since it was in Tel Aviv. But of course. Yeah. Well, seeing Netanyahu, I cannot say no.

Is Turkey participating for the last seven years? We are not.

Why? Because the songs are not good or what?

It is definitely not related to the songs.

Okay, okay.

Please. We're talking about Eurovision. The songs are not that, like, wow, kind of quality, but still, they're amazing.

Eurovision.

It is the Eurovision.

Yes.

So you know, the Eurovision Song Contest is shown in the national television. And as we are getting more conservative day by day. And according to the turkish authorities, they said it is not a fair game.

So they decided not to participate for a couple of years. And giving the note to the Eudez.

If you just reorganize the wording system and make it more transparent, we might think of getting back to Eurovision. But then Conchita first won the Eurovision. And of course turkish authorities had to create these transphobic comments on it.

So basically, after Conchita won, that was the time that things had changed about the attitude of the Turkey.

Turkish authorities. Yeah. They started to say, like, we cannot show this kind of a program. Who has this stage? By who they mean like conchita.

Because they cannot identify Conchita as he or she. Because I don't know why, but they have to.

And it was shown on turkish tv and it was like all. Okay, like, we all love Diana International.

Wow. So, yeah, so now you cannot participate. But do they broadcast it at least? Wow.

So whenever it is the time of the Eurovision, I just. I have to follow it from YouTube at least.

But at least that you have access to YouTube.

We do. Thankfully we do.

When I was traveling in Istanbul, so I turned on the Grindr and it didn't work. I was shocked about that.

It is something between Grindr and the turkish authorities again, I guess because I got in touch with the grinder and said, you're forbidden in Turkey. You know about that, right? They said, yeah, we do. Like, what are you gonna do about it?

Hornet.

It is the most popular one, but.

The name says it's all.

Totally, totally.

It's everywhere. It's everywhere.

Yeah, it totally is. So, yeah, there's some, like, stupid things that happening.

So, see, like, the grinder is banned, but Hornet is okay, and we cannot show or we cannot enter the Eurovision Song contest for, like, seven years and having, again, some non logical ideas and thoughts on it. But Eurovision has always been a huge thing between the gay community in Turkey as well.

So I have, like, WhatsApp group with my friends with whom we are discussing about the Eurovision at all times.

I think it's only proofs that even if the government, no matter what they do, they will not win the battle. They can try, but they cannot have a total win because the lgbt community is everywhere and will always be there.

Of course. Of course.

Like, there is no winning for any kind of governments which try to, you know, just oppress the community, because, like, we are not the political party. We are not just the, you know, thoughts. We are the humans. We, you know, carry our experiences, carry our lives with us. We will be here.

They will be gone at the end. Okay, now it is the question, do.

You see any hope for the future?

Otherwise, I wouldn't be an activist.

So things might change in the future just like they were a few years ago.

Now we cannot have it, but it doesn't mean that we're gonna have it back.

Your story definitely is a proof that activism always has to be some major part of the lgbt community. And even if things look good, we cannot be sure that they will remain like that. So we always have to be prepared.

Totally, totally. You cannot have anything for granted.

Last question for our listeners, who, wherever they are, and I'm sure that some of them are either. If it's in Turkey or in Israel or in maybe even in other countries, I'm sure that in some places, it can be difficult.

So maybe you have any tip for them, for our listeners, and also for a tip for hope. How do you get this hope?

Well, I'm not sure about any kind of tips because I'm such a stubborn person in every single thing that I do. So it really keeps me alive most of the times.

For the hope, I would definitely be saying the world has changed and changing because the change is the only thing not changing. Lots of. Lots of change that I'm using. I just noticed that part. But still, if the things are not good today, it doesn't mean they're not gonna be.

And if we really want to do something, if we want things to be changed for the better, we have to put our hands under that stone. If you don't do it, no one else gonna do.

Yeah.

If you do not reclaim your. Reclaiming my time. Reclaiming my time. You know that the american senator just said that you're claiming my time.

It's like I am reclaiming my rights, which is like, super, super difficult now. But again, try to be in an organization, because organizations can totally affect your. Your life in the most positive way.

And it is the place where you can have the concrete results of, like, helping one another, helping a peer, probably.

We are way more stronger.

Yes.

When we are together and when we cooperate.

That is the question that I ask myself at all times, you know, when I'm in bed, like, why. Why am I doing this? Like, for who am I doing just for myself or just for the other people? Because it is really tiring in many ways.

You know, like, you're fighting for things, you are not recognized, you want to organize something, you have the backlash from the authorities and stuff, and. But what really made me keep going is receiving those, like, thank yous from people that you don't know of.

Like, you will never know those people, you will never meet those people in face to face. Like, even if you do, you won't know who they are. They won't know who you are.

But again, like, coming or like, receiving those, like, thank yous from like, a quite distant place of the country or like, abroad, that's the thing. That's definitely the thing. Just that keeps me going at all times, apparently, having those, like, thank yous, like, touching people's lives.

Yeah, I feel very connected to that.

But even the podcast is quite new, and I also received some anonymous messages, also from people which have so, such interesting stories, also people who are in the closet and. Yeah, I guess also. But it's.

I didn't think about it until you said it, but yes, this, the thank you is very important, I think also maybe that's also a thing that we can community do to thank. Yeah, the people who fight with us or fight for us.

Totally, totally.

You know, the appreciation one another is one of the most important things, actually, to be able to understand what we are doing, because this is one of the most effective activism tools. You're gonna put this online. And some people will just, like, happen to, like, listen to this and maybe it's gonna touch their life, hopefully.

Even if one.

Even, you know, you can reach, like, 1 million of, like, reviews or listening. Even if you. You are a part of changing, like, one person's life.

That is the thing that we need, actually, you know, we really don't want to change everything in one day because we cannot. I wish we could. We could, but there is the reality.

And having a life out of the realness of the world or the places that we are in, it's not going to help anyone.

But having these kind of tools, you know, even organizing parties, I think it is one of the most powerful things, because protests, they are totally great. But not every single person has to be activist.

And for the ones who don't want to be an activist or who are not activists, organizing more like socially get together in some different places, that's also another way of doing an act, doing activism. And I totally am for that.

You know, having the LGBTI related movies, documentaries, if people are going to see those and if they are affected by it for the positive, for the good, it's another element of activism. So we really have to as well, think about the activism methodologies that we have.

So maybe even, like, community and celebration, celebration, celebration. Happiness is very important, and we do have what to be proud of and to celebrate with all that, because we chose to be who we are.

We get choose totally, totally. And again, like, creating your own family, not by blood, you know, it hasn't.

It doesn't have to be, you know, the biological family, but the family that you created by yourself, that's also a huge thing and also the thing that we are lacking somehow. But again, it gives you the power to be yourself and to affect other people because it has this, like, snowball effect.

I am most probably affected by another person, to be the person I am today, and maybe I'm also affecting other ones. And you are also too. You're doing that, too. Also, listeners, also listeners, hopefully.

Mustafa, I want to thank you. Thank you very much. How do you say thank you in Turkish?

In Turkish you say.

Mustafa.

Of course. Mikhail, how do we say in Hebrew?

Actually, it sounds even a bit familiar. To Tesha Kulesh, we say toda.

Toda.

Tesha Kulesh. Thank you, Mustafa. Of course.

Thank you.