CTO Wisdom with Alexis Smirnov | Beyond the Program

Welcome to CTO Wisdom. In this series, we interview technical leaders who have stepped into executive positions.

Today’s guest host, Eric Brooke, speaks with Alexis Smirnov. Alexis is the CTO of Dialogue, Canada's premier virtual healthcare and wellness platform, providing affordable, on-demand access to quality care.

In today’s episode, they discuss:

• A career starting on a programmable calculator, to Russian Space Research Institute to Microsoft to Co-founding two tech companies
• Working in HealthTech and the Purpose it can give you
• Importance of promoting yourself into new roles
• Importance of building relationships through your career
• How you grow in your career and the importance of selling Vision and working with others to create the actions to achieve it
• As a co-founder how important to recognize when you hit a wall, or when your work as IC is less important than the co-ordination of others
• How much of your focus at C-suite is on the growing of a healthy and sustainable business

About today’s guest: Over his three decades in the software industry, Alexis has used transformational technologies to build products and services at startups and Fortune 100 companies. In 2016, he co-founded and is serving as the CTO of Dialogue, Canada's premier virtual healthcare and wellness platform, providing affordable, on-demand access to quality care. Before Dialogue, he led the design and development of the social analytics system, built an award-winning semantic search engine, and incubated a platform for conversational apps. Alexis has co-founded Pi Corp, a pioneering cloud startup and successfully sold it to EMC. An active member of Montreal's technology startup community, Alexis holds several software patents.

About today’s host: Eric Brooke has a rich and varied leadership career - leading up to 21,000 people and Billions in revenue, throughout 14 countries. In their career, they have been an Executive six times (e.g. President, CEO, CMO, and CTO) and a Board member of multiple organisations. Eric has been a CTO of scaling startups from 0 to 120 engineers. As an adviser and mentor, they have helped multiple other startups scale both in Canada and the US. As well as supporting multiple startup incubators such as 1871 in Chicago and TechStars.

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Eric Brooke: Welcome to CTO wisdom.

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My name is Eric Brooke.

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This series will talk to leaders

of technology at organizations.

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We'll understand their career, what

was successful and what was not and

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what they learned along the way.

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We'll also look at what the

tech market is doing today.

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We'll understand where they gather

their intelligence so they can grow

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and scale with their organizations.

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Here today we have Alexi.

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Alexi, tell us what

your elevator pitch is.

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Alexis Smirnov: Hello, Eric.

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So my name is Alexis Smirnoff.

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Um, I'm, uh, fundamentally, I'm an

engineer by training and by career.

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I like to build things.

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I started, um, I went to school and

studied maths and theoretical physics.

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Back in Moscow, and, um, and then,

uh, moving to Montreal, finished a

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university, Université de Montréal

with a computer science degree.

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Thank you.

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And, uh, and really, uh, progressed

through my career as a, as a software

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engineer in various, uh, various, uh,

forms, uh, of, uh, what that means.

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Um, doesn't, doesn't necessarily

mean it's just coding.

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It, uh, it means various things.

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And, um, and then later the last kind

of, um, chapter of my career is, um, I've

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became a co founder and CTO of Dialog.

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Um, it's a, uh, it's a Canadian company.

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Uh, that, uh, that offers, um,

uh, tech enabled services, uh,

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for, uh, for companies, um,

in, uh, in health tech space.

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Eric Brooke: Cool.

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I'd love to know a little

bit more di about dialogue.

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Um, being a Canadian, I'd love to

hear some Canadian good stories.

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Alexis Smirnov: Well, listen, it's

a great story, uh, and, uh, we're

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so proud to be able to, uh, to offer

these, uh, these services to Canadians.

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Historically, access to

healthcare has been a, a, a

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really big issue for Canadians.

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Um, we, we started in Montreal,

so in Quebec it was even harder

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in at some other provinces.

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And that problem persistent for

so many years, so it's a, it's a

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problem that consistently with us.

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So, in 2016, we, uh, we looked at,

um, at this situation, we looked

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at the technology that we, we have

available in terms of, um, you know,

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live video in terms of, uh, you know,

chatbots, um, in terms of, uh, you

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know, connectivity and, and, and, uh,

adoption of, uh, of mobile phones.

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And, uh, it was clear to us that

there is, there was a better way

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to, um, uh, to remove, uh, and

reduce barriers to great care.

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And so we started a, a virtual

care company where we would build

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the technology, hire medical

professionals and start providing

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primary care services to employees.

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And the way we did it is, um, is we

would, we would go to businesses And offer

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them a corporate benefit so that their

employees can get an app on their phone

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to see the doctor, get a prescription,

get a referral to a lab, get a follow up

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and get better so much quickly is quicker.

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And so that's how we started in 2016.

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Since then, we've added more services,

more of these tech enabled services

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into the same experience and really

built out On integrated health

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platform, um, by now, we're serving

about 15 percent of, um, Canadians.

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So, it's, uh, it's about 6 million

people, um, have access to Dialog.

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Um, it's, uh, it's amazing to, uh, to hear

stories from, from people I've never met,

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you know, maybe in a cafe or somewhere

that, that rave about Dialog, their kind

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of first experience with virtual care.

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Um, and, uh, and that's, that's really

hooks you off when you, when you

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end up building something that, uh,

that that's so meaningful to so many

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people, it's, uh, it really transforms

the way you think about your career.

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Eric Brooke: It's great to have that

purpose beyond just the technology and

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all the curiosity and all of the problems.

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It's great to have that.

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And I believe also that you recently

formed a partnership with Sun Life and

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that you're starting to head into the U.

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S.

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Is that correct?

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Alexis Smirnov: That is true.

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So one of the things that we, uh, we

set off to build AppDialog is a really

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strong technology platform that powers

the services that we take to market.

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Of course, if you think about them, the

service itself, the medical service,

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you have to have licensed professionals

that have the right to practice

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medicine in a particular country.

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But technology behind these services

knows no boundaries and the problem space

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of delivering this, this, uh, digital

services or additional health services.

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Um, or creating a digital front

door to a range of services.

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Those problems are, are in fact,

um, universal and so we, we had an

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opportunity to, uh, present this,

this technology to, uh, Sun Life US.

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It's a division of a Sun Life,

uh, uh, and a global company.

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Um, who were looking to build a digital

front door to the services that that they

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would provide to their members as well as

some of the 3rd party, um, companies that

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that, um, that provide point solutions.

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They wanted to integrate it

all into a seamless experience.

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And increase that engagement

with, uh, with their members.

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So they were looking for

a technology partner.

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For And that's what's fun about this.

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The story is that we build

the tech for ourselves.

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We build it because we're operating

the services in Canada, but for an

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engineer, um, it's so satisfying and,

and, uh, and it's a proud moment.

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When somebody else look at the

technology you build for yourself and

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say, look, I can actually use that.

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I think a lot of people can know that

moment when they push, uh, you know, an

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open source product out there and, uh, and

people start picking it up and using it.

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It's a little bit like that.

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Eric Brooke: It's great that you're

able to help our brothers and sisters

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and others from America as well.

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I love that.

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So Alexi, I would love to dig into

your history a little bit more.

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Um, it's great news to hear about dialogue

and I wish you every success with that.

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And obviously we'll probably touch on that

as we travel our journey for your career.

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How did you start in technology?

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What was the passion or the curiosity

that got you started onto a keyboard for

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a computer at some time in your life?

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Alexis Smirnov: So, uh, my journey

actually started not in front of

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a keyboard of a computer, but,

um, but a programmable calculator.

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Um, that was the only programmable

device I can get my hands on, uh, when

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I was growing up, um, back in Moscow.

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Um, and, uh, in the age of 14, um,

at the time there was, uh, there was

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next to impossible to get Western

electronics into, into Russia.

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So, so Russian industry kind

of cloned a Texas instrument,

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a programmable calculator.

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That was a big moment because that

was the 1st programmable device.

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That a consumer, uh, somebody who

just lives in Moscow can, it can

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actually go and buy, um, after

standing a long line, you know, to,

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to, to get that, that calculator.

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So, um, that's how I started.

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There was, uh, there was actually

a community of people of, of, uh,

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programmers that emerged around

that, that little tiny device.

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Um, there were games that were created

on the programmable calculator.

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In fact, even offline parallel

multiplayer games with a scientific

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journal as the mean to exchange.

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Your scores, um, you know, when you're

traveling from from Earth to moon, you

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know, in a rocket ship and consuming fuel.

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This is the kind of games that you

can actually program or a calculator

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and then publish your results in the

scientific paper and run the score.

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So it's still pre Internet.

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Um, then I, I got, um, uh, uh, I got

really a good fortune to, uh, to intern

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at, um, at the Space Research Institute.

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So it's a, a Russian

analog of, um, of nasa.

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Uh, and, uh, at the time the

laboratory I was with, uh, it's

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an image processing laboratory was

working on, um, um, a um, Urner Rover.

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So Urner Rover is, um, is a rover

that was, uh, was sent to Mars.

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And it's effectively, um, an electric

self driving vehicle on Mars.

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So it's got cameras and decides, you

know, how to navigate between walks.

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So, uh, I've been fortunate to,

to work right inside of that,

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that, um, that amazing lab of,

uh, of real software engineers.

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So that's how that's how I got started.

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Eric Brooke: Awesome.

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So tell us beyond your journey.

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Um, where did you go with

becoming a programmer, software

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engineer, like a developer?

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Like, what happened next in your career?

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Alexis Smirnov: Well, what happened next

is, um, I, I was kind of pushed into

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somewhat technology entrepreneurship.

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And not because of some kind of a calling,

but simply because, uh, the, the Russian

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society was, was imploding and, uh, there

wasn't really much opportunities to, um,

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to, uh, to, uh, build things and then

make, make a living building these things.

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So I was.

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Um, I was engaged in, uh, in a number

of different projects, uh, either, you

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know, building a game or building a

computer visualization system and then,

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and then selling these visualizations.

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So, it was, it was really

entrepreneurship out of need.

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When we moved to, uh, to Montreal, um,

and, uh, and I, I got, um, I finished my,

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my studies in the University of Montreal.

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Um, I, I then had, um,

had an amazing break.

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Um, Microsoft just acquired a

company called Softimage in Montreal.

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So, so essentially there was, uh, an

outpost of Microsoft right where I lived.

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And, um, and it's, it's, uh, it was

a combination of both, uh, uh, best,

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uh, kind of 2 best worlds for me,

um, that, uh, that amazing company

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that, uh, that is all about software

engineering and the soft image being

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an amazing company that pioneered

the tools of, of computer graphics,

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uh, for, uh, for Hollywood movies.

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This was the company that built the

tools that, um, that made, uh, the famous

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Jurassic Park, uh, dinosaur scenes and,

uh, and other kind of pioneering movies.

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And so, um, so I got a, I got a

lucky break to get hired as a, um,

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as a software engineer at Softimage.

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And, uh, the project was to effectively

port Softimage from Linux to Windows.

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And so all new code, um, all new

technology, um, so that, that was,

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that was at the time when, uh,

when a lot Microsoft was, uh, was

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the biggest, uh, the biggest deal,

you know, in, in the tech world.

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Um, and growing very quickly, so we

have the tremendous amount of resources

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that that's that was, uh, that's where

I kind of learned the craft of software

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engineering and learn the dynamics

of working on large scale engineering

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projects as part of a large team.

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Eric Brooke: Wonderful, so keep

us going, like, what happens next?

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That sounds wonderful.

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Alexis Smirnov: Well, what

happens next is, uh, is, uh,

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incremental increase and impact.

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So when you are, when you're a software

engineer, you see some opportunities,

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you see new ways of, uh, of perhaps

implementing a feature, or you see a new

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way to repurpose a system to provide.

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More services within the product.

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It was at the time when, when, um,

computer graphics tooling itself was, was,

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was not, it was still a nascent industry.

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It was, it was growing.

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So, so I had an opportunity to actually

invent a few things and patent a few

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things around, um, around how these

systems are, are working, um, before,

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you know, it, I, um, I'm a team lead.

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Of, um, uh, of a small team

that is responsible for a subset

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of this large scale system.

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Soft image was had a modeling component

where you model your 3D scene.

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An animation component that

they were famous for where you

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make these, these, uh, these 3d

models can kind of come alive.

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And then finally, the rendering

component, when you shape them and color

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them and really make them look real.

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And so I was responsible for, for that

application for the rendering step.

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And, uh, and so, um, it was.

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It was a great way to, to learn how to,

how to build something, um, kind of end

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to end, but being part of a larger whole.

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Um, so, because we had, we had

certain use cases that, um, there

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was really focused on rendering.

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So you were responsible

for kind of delivering.

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Something end to end, yet you, you

have to, you have to collaborate and

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kind of end up being compatible with

the, with the rest of the system.

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So, so both of those skills is something

to develop as how to build things

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into land and how to build things

that that are part of a larger whole.

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So, so I had an opportunity to do that

as a, as a team lead at Microsoft.

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Eric Brooke: What was it

like being a team lead?

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Can you remember the differences between

one minute you're person coding and the

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next minute you're now responsible for a

lot more communication with stakeholders?

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Um, do you remember any of

the lessons that you learned

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to that point of your career?

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Alexis Smirnov: So, uh, it's a team

leader at Microsoft at the time was,

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um, was an individual contributor

with additional responsibilities.

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So it's, it's, it wasn't, it wasn't

a job where you stopped coding.

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No, you, in fact, you coded just like

an individual contributor, but you also

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have to develop, um, talent around you.

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You also have to recruit.

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And, and grow that team and, and, uh,

um, also how to help people with, uh,

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with their engineering decisions, um,

and, uh, um, you know, code review.

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So, so really develop a few folks.

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I had a very small team

and it was like, 5 people.

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But, um, but it added that that additional

responsibility without really removing

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responsibility on, um, as a, um, as

a key contributor to to the code.

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And so, um, it was, it was easy

for me to slide back into the

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individual contributor mode.

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Um, and at the time, I really didn't

promote myself to the role of a

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team lead where I would say, okay,

so now I've got this other part.

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Part of my responsibility is, is

to help and support these folks.

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I consider this to be more of like a

nuisance, um, and kind of a distraction.

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Uh, from, from what I'm, what I'm

really supposed to be doing is, is

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pushing the, the technology forward.

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Um, and, uh, and that, that was, you know,

it took me, it took me quite some time to,

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uh, to kind of promote myself like that.

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Um, and, and, uh, and that, that's.

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That didn't help people around me, like,

you know, the software engineers around

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me weren't, uh, weren't really growing

and, uh, they weren't, they weren't like

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the, the best ones from the, um, uh, you

know, if you, if Microsoft was famous

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for, for this brutal staff ranking, um,

or lifeboat exercise type of, um, ranking,

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uh, uh, uh, uh, methodology at the time.

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Where you have to actually compete

with other managers about who,

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uh, who needs to be ranked higher.

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Um, so, so I, I really didn't didn't

develop that muscle or, or that, you know,

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wasn't able to articulate that clearly.

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Um, so I don't think I was a

good people manager at the time.

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Um, but, uh, but it certainly,

um, out of, it certainly taught

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me that, um, that that is.

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That that needs to be viewed

as as part of your job.

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And, uh, 1 of the things kind of a test.

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If you catch yourself thinking at the

end of the day, after spending a day,

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a whole bunch of meetings with people,

um, you know, try and figure out, like,

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these people issues or performance

management, you come back home and think.

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What did I do?

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I didn't code anything today.

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Like, this, this is a lost day.

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Like, I, I, I'm not like, I'm

not moving our product forward.

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I wish I, I've contributed, I wish I

fixed that bug that we still have in the

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code, like, if you catch yourself thinking

that, that's probably mean you're, you're

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not thinking about this, this other

responsibility that you have on par.

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With the responsibility

of being an engineer,

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Eric Brooke: yes, it's quite a transition

going from something that you feel

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strong in a skill set that you feel

strong in I coding and then letting that

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go to do things that you don't know.

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So, well, I people management.

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Um, and then mentoring

and coaching others.

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It's a journey for all of us.

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Definitely.

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So, after your time as T

lead, what happened next?

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Alexis Smirnov: Well, listen, next,

uh, internet happened, so here I am

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finding myself, um, you know, running

a larger and larger team at Microsoft,

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doing something that is, that is so

not the internet, doing complex data

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processing, data manipulation tools

for, for rendering of these 3D scenes.

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So the furthest thing from the

internet, the internet happens.

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And, uh, I'm like, this thing is

passing me by, like, I, I need to,

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this is where the technology is going.

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So I need to find a way to do it.

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And again, uh, we're not, we're not

talking Silicon Valley where, where

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there's like a ton of startups,

all kind of jumping into a dot com.

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Um, we're talking about Montreal, so

we, we have one company that there

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was a truly an internet darling.

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And, uh, um, and a company

that was like, you know, on the

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cover page of wired, et cetera.

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It was a company, um, called zero

knowledge systems that, um, uh, that

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was working on the internet privacy.

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It was so obvious at the

time that internet happens.

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Pri, you know, privacy

is gonna be destroyed.

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Um, people will revolt.

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Um, the people will pay a lot of money

to maintain their private information.

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And, um, and privacy is gonna be such

a huge thing on the internet, uh, that,

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that there has to be a company that is,

um, that is on the forefront of this.

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Um, they, they ended up building

what is currently known as TOR.

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So this, this onion encryption for

transport where the two nodes don't

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know the, um, kind of the origin

and destination of the message, um,

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because, because it's like triply

encrypted and goes through, uh,

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Randomly selected intermediate node.

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So, um, so tour like tour is being used

today, but how many people use it right?

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Um, or, um, now, nowadays, you

know, we're, we're very far

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from the event of the Internet.

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Now we have these, um, uh, these

technologies embedded in your kind

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of iOS where, where you can hide

your, your IP address, what have you.

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So it became now kind of, um, um, a piece

of the infrastructure of the internet.

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But, but at the time there was, there

was nothing, there was no business, there

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was a lot of exciting, uh, excitement

and, um, and a huge amount of, of money.

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Um, that that flew into this,

uh, into this whole industry,

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including that company.

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So, um, I've joined that company to, uh,

to start a, uh, on infrastructure, uh,

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uh, a, an enterprise privacy division.

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So they already have this tour, um,

called freedom network, um, that they

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were trying to sell directly to consumers.

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Um, and, uh, and that

was working very well.

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So the thing you do is say, well, let's,

let's sell privacy to enterprises.

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Um, we've, uh, I'm very proud of that,

that project, uh, as a technology project,

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we built this rule based engine to analyze

data flows and apply privacy rules to it.

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We sold, we sold 1 copy.

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Of it to e trade and, uh, and

then dot com crash happens.

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And so there you find yourself with an

amazing team of dozens of people working

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on this, on this project you think is,

uh, is, you know, technologically sound

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and kind of has the right to exist.

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But the market doesn't care and it,

it really doesn't matter how, how

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elegant or how intricate, how, how

hard of a lift technically that, uh,

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that project is or that product is.

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If no one buys it, it doesn't exist.

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That's it.

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Um, it's, it's just like a law of physics.

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Uh, you, you can't really, uh, you

know, uh, can't really, uh, ignore.

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So, um, so that was a moment where,

where I had to, I had to let go.

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Uh, most of my staff, in fact, uh,

like most of this team, uh, uh, you

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know, we have to, we have to let go.

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And the company was.

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Was going down fast, um, this is, uh,

this is where I started thinking as well.

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So what is what is next?

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Like, now it's, it's, um,

it's a completely, like, the

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whole tech field is decimated.

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There's, there's nothing happening.

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Nobody's, uh, nobody's hiring.

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Like, what do we go from there?

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And, um, and that, if you like, I can

tell you the next chapter of my career.

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Eric Brooke: Go ahead.

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Yeah,

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Alexis Smirnov: this is, uh,

this, this is a story of, uh, of

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relationships that I built at Microsoft.

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Um, and and I didn't really realize

that I was building relationships.

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I was just helping people that

that I've, um, I've admired.

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I, I was, um, I was learning

from people that that that knew

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much more than I, uh, I knew.

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And somehow those kinds of interactions

created relationships that allowed

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me to then co found a startup with

ex Microsoft folks that also kind of

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moved on and was doing other things.

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Um, and, uh, um, we, we had about dozen

co founders, um, we were, um, that was at,

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um, uh, so 2000 we, when we, um, um, so

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like that, yeah, 2004, when we, uh, when

we started that, that startup called Pi.

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And, uh, we were, we're

completely distributed.

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So I was, um, I started being alone in

Montreal and we were essentially like

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working on ICQ and MSN messenger after.

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Um, so, so it was a completely

remote, um, remote, uh, first project.

371

What would get together in a

city and then, then kind of,

372

uh, uh, and work from home.

373

Um, we started a, um, an

engineering hub in Bangalore.

374

And started hiring there, so we, we,

um, we had about 60 people in Bangalore.

375

And so we would commute to Bangalore

to, uh, to work with the team.

376

And, uh, and so in 4 years, we've,

um, maybe I should tell you a

377

bit what that startup was about.

378

If you read the, um, um, Steve Jobs's

biography, there was a passage where

379

Steve Jobs articulates the vision for

the future where personal information

380

is no longer stored on one's device.

381

But it's stored in a cloud and, um,

and people can upgrade their, um, their

382

devices, um, uh, more easily because,

uh, the, um, these devices that the

383

personal information survives the times

of the lifetime of any particular device.

384

This, this kind of vision was first

articulated to us as co founders by,

385

uh, by the guy by the name of Paul

Maritz, who was, um, who was one of

386

the top, um, uh, people in Microsoft

before he retired, he built Windows IE,

387

you know, he fought this, this IE wars

and yet, um, built, built Windows NT.

388

Um, and so made up a tremendous footprint

on, on, on the software industry.

389

And so he actually articulated that

vision years before what, um, what the

390

historical record shows, Steve jobs did.

391

So same vision.

392

And so we set up to build,

um, a startup on that.

393

And so we built a, um, a cloud

system before the word cloud existed.

394

Where we would store your personal

information in the cloud, which is

395

currently known as cloud and would have

a copy or cashed copy on the device

396

and then the synchronization between

all these devices that you have.

397

And and so we, we successfully sold this

company to EMC to build to allow EMC to

398

create a cloud infrastructure division.

399

Thank you.

400

And, uh, it got folded with, uh, with

Mosey and other assets that now it's part

401

of Dell, but, um, but fundamentally it's,

it's like that idea of a Dropbox iCloud.

402

Um, and there's, of course, usually

when there is a technological shift,

403

there's many implementations of

the same idea and you only hear

404

about, like, 1 or 2 remaining.

405

But the chances are, there

was, there was a few of those.

406

So we were 1 of the 1 of the few that, uh.

407

Uh, that was, that was

working on that problem.

408

Eric Brooke: So you've gone from

like a team lead, you've down done

409

management at a much larger scale.

410

You also manage managers at this point.

411

Like, were there any things that when

you step away from the management

412

of people, from that tiny team lead

that you now know to be true, or

413

that you use as your principle set

in terms of leadership of people,

414

Alexis Smirnov: I think it becomes

more and more a communication role.

415

It becomes as, as you, as you move, it

becomes a communication of, uh, more and

416

more abstract and more and more remote

concepts, remote in the sense of time.

417

So maybe you're describing something

that is not going to happen next week,

418

but, uh, but in 3 months or in a year.

419

So, so you have to get good at

explaining things that don't exist.

420

Uh, explaining them in sufficient detail

and painting the dots of how 1 gets to it.

421

Because if you don't do that, then

you're just like a, an abstract

422

visionary and it's not very useful.

423

You need to, you need to, uh, describe

the steps to get there both together.

424

If you do that, you know, many times

over and develop that habit of, of

425

communicating a vision and the steps to

get to that vision, that's, um, that's

426

a, that's really, if you can develop

that, well, it becomes your superpower.

427

That is so helpful for a lot of people

because those stories about the vision

428

and the steps towards that vision

really corral people together, um, in

429

the Now, people can have conversations

about first steps, you know, middle

430

steps, the whole sequence, they can

find how they can impact the, this

431

progression towards the vision.

432

And, um, and that's how you, you get

most out of people is, uh, is when

433

they are working at, um, at something

that they, they are the most impactful.

434

And so when you're, when

you're working with a manager.

435

Um, you're offering this, this vision

to, to a manager and really in, in some

436

ways, you're asking, how can you help if,

if you think that this is a worthwhile

437

destination, how can you help and, and

that's where you, you start engaging

438

others into, into, um, kind of collective

thinking about the vision, the steps.

439

Um, and and certainly, um, the, the

other point here is, you know, I'm,

440

I'm kind of describing this as if this

vision and the steps kind of comes

441

out fully formed and always correct.

442

Of course, not.

443

This is this is a framework

that you are trying to get

444

more and more correct around.

445

So, so both the vision and the

steps should keep changing with

446

more input with more people kind

of scrutinizing and questioning.

447

All of this, and as a result,

you, you've got, you've got a

448

better, um, better path forward.

449

Eric Brooke: Thank you for that, Lexi.

450

So talk to me about, so you've been

a founder at Dialog for some time.

451

I'm interested in the different

stages of like, when you start at

452

the beginning and where you notice

the shifts or the ways that you have

453

to interact with it differently.

454

Because obviously when you started

off, um, you're a small team and then

455

eventually you grow to much larger team.

456

So talk to me about the

stages of your time at Dialog.

457

Alexis Smirnov: Well, it's interesting

because when, when you're a co

458

founder of a company that has no

employees, and then there's a couple

459

of people working with you, you're

obviously an individual contributor.

460

Um, even though you have a title,

like a chief technology off,

461

like this title means nothing.

462

You are you're part of 3 people, 3

developers who are building the 1st

463

version of whatever you're building.

464

So to get the title, what, um, what sets

maybe a co founders and people who are who

465

are part of the funding team apart is they

have to constantly promote themselves.

466

So, um, my partner, Sharif,

who's a CEO and co founder,

467

never promoted me from CTO.

468

So I'm, I'm, you know, I'm flat,

I'm not advancing since the last

469

seven years, I've not been promoted

over the last seven years, right?

470

So, of course, that is not the case.

471

Um, but the trick is.

472

You have to promote yourself at

every step when, when you're a

473

co founder, because if you don't.

474

Then you are hamstring, uh, you're

essentially making, making so that the

475

company cannot, cannot grow faster.

476

And, uh, and so the trick is to realize

when you're hitting the wall, because

477

you're operating at certain level and,

and when, when you need to do, um,

478

something else and, and that's kind of.

479

Self promotion, um, to the next level,

um, uh, you know, it takes forms of like,

480

you're you are an individual contributor.

481

So you're coding, um, I was, I was

coding, like, like terraform, uh, and

482

then Python services and then react apps.

483

Because we, we have no people.

484

So, um, so I was, I was doing all of this.

485

Um, and then, and then the handful of

people joined and then then a little

486

bit more, um, at some point, there is,

uh, you, you see that the coordination

487

between these folks is more important

than your individual contribution.

488

And it's, it's very hard for somebody

external, like for, um, for, for your

489

co founder to, to pick up these points

and say, you know what, like next week

490

you should be doing the, you know, more

coordination than individual contributor,

491

because you need to have this, this

kind of visibility in the code and

492

this, and the problems they're having.

493

Um, so, so it's, it's

mostly comes from you.

494

And so that repeats itself.

495

When, uh, when you need to recognize

that, um, that there is, there's

496

actually several teams that are,

that are running in parallel.

497

And so, so you need to, you need

to figure out who's going to be

498

leading them because you can't

leave like several teams at once.

499

Um, and, uh, and then there is,

um, there's this emergence of, uh,

500

maybe several subsystems, either

layers like front end, back end or

501

infrastructure, um, or several products.

502

Um, we, we have both, um, at, um,

a dialogue because we, we serve.

503

Members, so people, uh, with, uh, with

access to, uh, to the services on their

504

phone, but we also serve service providers

who actually provide these services.

505

So that's another persona for us.

506

There's another set of applications,

and we sell the whole shebang to

507

clients to large employers, employers.

508

Or partners, and so that's another

stakeholder in the persona.

509

So, so you, you, you begin to

see the, the emergence of, um, of

510

the org design based on whatever

business you ran and and whatever

511

structure the technology takes shape.

512

To support the business you're

in and so so you need to be

513

thinking about these, these things.

514

So, for us, we never pivoted.

515

So it was, it was really a

constant growth trajectory.

516

So, so I can tell you, like, um, specific

moments, of course, there are fundraisers

517

and, uh, and bursts of growth, um.

518

So, of course, there are, there are

moments, uh, like, um, uh, getting,

519

uh, um, you know, going, going public.

520

Um, of course there's, there's, um, there

are moments when, uh, um, when your, your

521

partner, um, distribution partner, um,

um, you know, partner in markets, Sun Life

522

decides to invest more in the company.

523

There are there are corporate milestones

there, um, that, um, uh, that that begin

524

to, uh, uh, to to kind of shape your role.

525

But but in terms of in terms of the

engineering, the technology, I think

526

that culture, your job is really to

maintain that culture as you use you.

527

Move up the organization, um, while, while

keeping the same title, um, move up the

528

organization because you are, you're,

um, working with more and more people.

529

Eric Brooke: Thank you.

530

Alexis Smirnov: And so, and

maybe the, the, the conclusion

531

there is, is that you're becoming

a, an executive of a business.

532

So now that you have a,

you have a business to run,

533

you're part of the C suite.

534

And, and now the live changes again,

where you are a technologist with, um,

535

uh, with a team of like minded people

that you are, you are leading and, you

536

know, they're, they're building great

things and you're, uh, inspired every

537

day and what the, what they're doing.

538

Um, and you're also part of a

very different team that inspires

539

you in a very different way.

540

And that is a multidisciplinary team

where you're the only technologist in

541

the room, where, uh, where people have

an appreciation and an intuition about

542

the technology, but you still have,

like, each team member has a different.

543

Expertise, so that's the team where

you have, you know, somebody like, uh,

544

made a CFO or a chief operating officer

or somebody responsible for or go to

545

market and your sales partnership.

546

So that that team is, uh, is the

team is very different from from your

547

engineering team because it is heavily.

548

Cross functional and so, so the, the,

the game there is to find a way to work

549

together to advance the business forward.

550

So advance this company for

make it make it grow faster.

551

Um, by contributing different

perspectives, um, into, uh, into

552

decision making process into

forming a strategy for the company.

553

Eric Brooke: Um, as co founders you're

traveling quite a journey together,

554

like you're together longer than some

people are even married and you've

555

seen the transition in your, your

colleagues, whether it be CEO or CFO.

556

Um, were there things when you look

back on that, like the importance of

557

maintaining your relationships with people

through such growth, um, can't be easy.

558

When you look back, what are

the things that you'd say that.

559

You've learned along the way, some you

probably knew before because of your

560

career before, but that's a long journey.

561

How do you maintain a

relationship for that long?

562

Because you're not always going to agree.

563

Alexis Smirnov: No, you're not.

564

You're not going to agree every time.

565

Uh, well, there's, there's a few

things like, like in marriage, you're

566

not agreeing all the time either.

567

Um, I think it's the first of all,

you need to, you need to have a

568

fundamentally, you need to have a

tremendous amount of trust in people.

569

You're you're taking on this,

this adventure together.

570

Um, I, I got so lucky with my partner,

co founder Sharif, uh, um, who is,

571

um, who had this unique combination

of a technologist and a business

572

thinker in health tech space.

573

So, so that, that made them, um,

a uniquely positioned to become

574

a CEO dialogue and, uh, and I

attribute a lot of our success to.

575

To his wisdom and, uh, um, in, in

healthcare, there's a plenty of problems

576

to solve and there's plenty of ways

to solve it or ideas of how to solve

577

this, that, and the other thing what's

rare is to create a business model

578

that makes, uh, makes a sustainable

business where you can earn your right

579

to keep solving that problem and growing

that's rare, especially in Canada.

580

Uh, given, given, uh, the kind of how our,

uh, our system is built, but the problems

581

are still, um, you know, tremendous.

582

So, so it's worthwhile solving

them if you can figure out how

583

to build a sustainable business.

584

And, and, uh, and that's, that's

one of the, one of the first

585

contributions that, that, um, Sharif

made to, to this adventure is to.

586

To set us on the path with that

sustainable business model, where, um, the

587

patient never takes out their credit card

to pay for care and where the employer,

588

in fact, through their benefits budget.

589

Contributes the kind of new money

into health care for the country.

590

Um, you know, we, we never, we never

get money from the government yet.

591

We are providing medical service.

592

And the way we kind of managed to do

that is because employers believe.

593

It's the right thing to do to, um, to

provide these services to their employees.

594

And so, um, that's a, that's something

that I, uh, I didn't, did not come up

595

with this is the kind of partnership

that you're looking for, the kind

596

of partner you're looking for, uh,

to, to start, start a business.

597

And, uh, and certainly I had a

background with building all kinds

598

of systems that, uh, that I think

found quite complimentary as well.

599

Um, uh, but, but listen, that, that

was, that was like seven years ago.

600

Now we have a, uh, a C suite.

601

Of, uh, of absolutely amazing individuals

that are, they're working together,

602

making, making, you know, the whole

much greater than, than any of our

603

individual and visual capabilities.

604

And, um, and that's, um, that's, that's

now a source of, um, um, uh, kind of

605

drive and, uh, and strategy for the

company is, is, uh, is that team we call

606

it, we don't call it C suite, we call

it Endurance, uh, the name of that, uh,

607

that ship of, of, uh, of Sir Shackleton.

608

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

609

So let's change tack a little bit.

610

Um, what, um, when you look at

the technology market at the

611

moment, what are you broadly

seeing, um, in technology today?

612

Alexis Smirnov: Well, I think that the

shift, uh, towards AI is, is obvious.

613

So, um, so that, that part is,

uh, is, is kind of very obvious.

614

And I think a lot of people,

you know, say a lot of things

615

and prognosticate about this.

616

I'm not, I'm not going to join, like,

I'm, I'm as excited as, as anybody else.

617

So that's, that's a shift

that is, is, is not a fad.

618

It's a, it's a shift that, uh,

that we will see evolve over time.

619

There is one more shift that, uh, there

is a macro shift that there is also

620

kind of inescapable that, that maybe

doesn't get that much airtime, even

621

though it's, it's, uh, it's as present.

622

You remember how tech industry or, or even

the word tech was separate from the rest

623

of the society, the rest of the economy.

624

And it was like, there's this

economy and then there's this tech.

625

And then, then we started talking big tech

or like, I think we're moving in a world

626

where, where it's, it becomes inseparable.

627

There is, there's not going to be tech.

628

There's going to be the world economy.

629

And, and so every company.

630

Will become, um, just like every

company is a consumer of electricity.

631

Every company is going to

be running on intelligence.

632

Running on these, these cognitive

systems are consuming, consuming that

633

those resources, um, just like, just

like they're consuming electricity.

634

So, um, so it's that, I think that

shifts the way people kind of think

635

about tech where, you know, there's this

company that does the right software.

636

And then there's these other companies

that don't write software and and these,

637

these companies that write software sell

the software to these other companies.

638

So it's it's, um, I think the lines

are blurring and that's when you're

639

seeing the regulation conversation.

640

You know, how do you, how do you

regulate, um, in this new world?

641

Um, and, uh, and it's, I think it'd

be, uh, as a technologist, I find

642

this, uh, amazing and, uh, and I,

I welcome, um, that, that shift

643

because at the end of the day.

644

It allows technology to make a bigger

positive impact on the world and, uh, and

645

if you're, if you're a technologist for

a long time, I think you're converging

646

in, in, in this kind of mental space

where you're trying to optimize impact.

647

Positive impact to the world.

648

And I certainly do.

649

Eric Brooke: Is there a problem that

you're figuring out now as a CTO that

650

you're open to sharing that you're digging

into and understanding at the moment?

651

Alexis Smirnov: Yeah.

652

So, so the, the game shifted for us as

well, as, as we grow, we've, uh, we've

653

reached a profitability, um, in, uh, in,

uh, uh, a couple of quarters of, uh, ago.

654

Which is, which was a tremendous

achievement for, for a company in

655

health tech, you know, seven years old,

it's, uh, it's quite rare, but, uh,

656

but that, that, uh, the, the tie in

with, um, with sunlight gives, gives us

657

tremendous opportunities in the market.

658

Yeah.

659

But, but it, because it makes, it makes

our, like those opportunities make our.

660

Uh, uh, our company harder to, um, to

kind of articulate a single, uh, service

661

or single product where, where all

of our resources points towards that,

662

um, you necessarily have to, uh, grow,

um, via many different, um, avenues.

663

And so balancing between different

objectives, uh, while maintaining

664

focus of individual teams, um,

that that is, that is a challenge.

665

Like, it's so easy to, uh, uh, to take

on, um, a project because it's, uh, it,

666

it makes tremendous amount of sense.

667

It's, it's harder to simplify things.

668

And, um, and reduce the amount of stuff

you do, uh, or in our case, it is,

669

um, remember, we're running these, um,

services, uh, tech enabled services.

670

So there is a lot of a big

component of of service delivery.

671

The service operation

is a complex machine.

672

So how do you, how do you balance the,

the human provision of service with, um,

673

automated or automation and, um, and the

investment in, in war one or the other.

674

So those are, I think, the, the

balancing between different, um,

675

different, really attractive.

676

Opportunities, uh, or, or different pain

points that are equally hard, um, or

677

equally kind of acute that is that, that,

that is the, the current challenge for us.

678

Eric Brooke: Yeah, setting your

priorities when you've got so many

679

opportunities, it can be a tough one.

680

Awesome.

681

Um, so, um, one, um, I've got

two more questions for you.

682

One is, um, what helped you grow?

683

What helps you grow now?

684

And how, what's helped you scale?

685

Um, in your career, what are the

ways that you consume knowledge or

686

experience or skills to help you

become the next version of yourself?

687

Alexis Smirnov: I owe my

growth to people around me.

688

Like it's, it's that's that simple.

689

That is the biggest source of learning.

690

And uh, Um, and an inspiration and the

ability to scale, um, so some, some of

691

that is, is, of course, um, how we hire.

692

It's like, super hard to

get hired at dialogue.

693

Um, but, uh, but we are growing the team.

694

We have a range of, uh, of engineering

positions, uh, open that that I'm, uh,

695

you know, uh, I'm looking for candidates.

696

Um, and that's a big

part of my, my job too.

697

Maintain that that quality bar

and, uh, and grow the team.

698

So anybody's interested in working

in health tech space, please apply.

699

Um, so that is that that is the number

1 source of of learning and, uh, an

700

ability to think about what oneself

myself from different perspective.

701

Um, you have to certainly listen more

to, to learn from people around you.

702

So, um, so that's a, that's a big,

uh, uh, uh, big focus area is, uh,

703

is ability to extract insights from

folks that are not here to educate you.

704

They're, they're here to like, do

the job and move the company forward.

705

That's, that's, that's what they're

thinking that, um, your personal

706

learning is kind of a by product

of you being in the same room

707

and, uh, and extracting lessons.

708

Um, so, so that's, that's really

the, the, the biggest one.

709

Um, I, I like podcasts cause I,

you know, I walk my dog, um, every

710

morning and and, uh, most nights.

711

And so that's, uh, it's a

good time to, uh, listen to a

712

podcast, uh, or an audio book.

713

Um, so Lex Friedman podcast

is, uh, is, uh, one of the,

714

um, on my, on my speed dial.

715

Um, There's another one called founders,

which is, um, a, uh, a summary of

716

books, uh, that, um, so guys actually

doing these, these quick summer

717

podcast, uh, format summaries of, uh,

of books of, of, uh, biographies of,

718

uh, of founders and entrepreneurs.

719

Uh, so, uh, amazing resource as well.

720

And, and I, I pick here and there

different technical podcasts,

721

um, depending on the kind of

technology that I'm interested in.

722

So like either MLOps, you know, uh,

LLMs or, you know, prior to that NLP.

723

Um, so, so when, when I have, um,

when I have a question, I want to

724

deep dive, you know, I, I'll pick up.

725

Some of the point of dust there.

726

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

727

Thank you.

728

And Alexey, my last question for you.

729

What do you do for fun?

730

Alexis Smirnov: Oh, what I do for fun?

731

Um, I find, I find actually

work is, is a lot of fun for me.

732

It's, I enjoy what I do.

733

So I'm, you know, I laugh

a lot during the day.

734

Yeah.

735

So, so that's, that's

a big part of my fun.

736

Um, I, um, I, I play table tennis.

737

Um, so, so that's, that's something

I, I've been doing since, um,

738

around the time, actually earlier

than I started programming.

739

So when I was a kid, uh, so, uh,

so that's, that's something I do.

740

And, um, and I have two daughters,

um, that, um, that, that, uh,

741

fulfill my, my life with joy.

742

In fun, so so I enjoy spending

spending time in family.

743

So, the other thing that I, that I

do for fun, we do for fun with my, my

744

wife, Irene and I are, are kind of.

745

Design oriented people, so we like,

um, like designing things or like,

746

like, and interior design is 1 of

the 1 of the things that is, you

747

know, this is our design outlet.

748

So, um, so we certainly

spend a lot of time.

749

You know, discussing different

design alternatives for some future

750

renovation, you know, we might do.

751

Eric Brooke: Alexi, thank you very

much for sharing your story today

752

and sharing your wisdom with us.

753

I appreciate the time.

754

Alexis Smirnov: It's been a lot of fun.

755

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