Rebecca and Tori chat about the smash hit 'Off Campus,' created by Louisa Levy. We actually recorded this about a month ago right before the end of the quarter and before vacation, but it took some time to get it edited and published. Like the rest of the internet, we love it!

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Content Advisory

This episode of Wallowing in the Shallows contains discussions of sex and nudity, as well as sexual assault and domestic abuse. If you or someone you know needs help in the United States, please reach out to the National Child Abuse Hotline at 800.422.4453, the National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800.656.4673, or the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800.799.7233. For immediate assistance, call 911.

Content Advisory. This episode of Wallowing in the Shallows contains discussions of sex and nudity, as well as sexual assault and domestic abuse. If you or someone you know needs help in the United States, please reach out to the National Child Abuse Hotline at 800-422-4453, the National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-4673, or the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-454.

seven two three three. For immediate assistance, call nine one one.

Welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows, the podcast that skirts the perilous drop-off of a deep dive into television and movies. Today on Wallowing in the Shallows, I I think what surprised me more and what one of the things that really pulled me into the series was that the young men really kind of broke the mold. It flipped the script on how generally, you know, sports players and really kind of

Top tier sports players, whether they're in college or pro, this really kind of flipped the script on that. And I was like, thank God.

Yeah.

Finally. And and while we see it with Garrett, I think it's incredibly clear with Dean.

Hey, hello peeps. Welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows. This is Tori.

And this is Rebecca. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks.

There are no spoiler guards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk. Hey.

Today we have a surprising romp to share with you. 2026s newly minted off-campus, an Amazon Prime gig. I just have to mention that that Tori texted me somewhat abashed, saying she couldn't believe how much she was enjoying off campus.

Yes.

I believe I said I hate myself for loving it.

And then I proceeded to watch it and now I'm telling everyone about it. I feel no shame whatsoever. I think it's really good. And I think it has a lot of great messages. Does. And I'm hoping it is very appealing to people. I mean, hot people having hot sex. Why not? But I think there is so much more to this show. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I really appreciate what they've done here. I, I have some notes. There's a couple of things I wish were included, but I I think it's very good.

Although I have started calling it the “ab”ba Dabba Doo Show.

Nice. Hot abs all around.

Wow. Makes me wish I was in my twenties again.

Even when I was in my twenties, I was not getting this kind of action. I mean, this is this is ridiculous. This is ridiculous.

When I was well yeah, I mean not that kinda defined abs, but you know, I gotta give it to J G. pr he was pretty fit.

Okay.

When I was watching this, I was like, Whoa, I don't think I've ever had anybody with abs like that. And then I was like, Well, maybe. So anyhow Yeah

Ha ha ha.

Just yeah, just to give you a little those listeners who may not have watched it yet, I say just immediately, give it a try. If it doesn't suck you in, then you know, leave it. But my gosh, this is very binge worthy. And it doesn't take long to be like, there's a little more going on here. Originally feels like total rom com, you know.

Girl who's losing her scholarship, desperately in love with this music guy, teams up with hot hockey player who needs to improve his grades, and so she'll in exchange for playing her beard so that she can make the guy that she likes jealous and want to like her. And it is almost maddening

He needs a tutor.

how right Garrett is about this and how well it works.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So Garret's our hockey player and holy shit. Hannah. Hannah. God, I just I wanted to I was gonna call her Ella, but that's her real name. So and she's the she's a musician. But yeah, when I I just started watching it 'cause I'd actually jumped onto Prime because I wanted to kill about an hour of time. I'd just had acupuncture and I was like, I can't grade right away. My brain is mush. But I saw that.

I was kind of being really flippant with myself and I was like, Ugh, do they have the college life right? I'm gonna check it out. 'Cause I bet it's not. And I got through the first episode and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna watch one more episode And then I got through that episode and I was like, I gotta watch one more episode

You can't stop. After after episode two, you can't stop.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it was after episode three when I texted you and I'm like, my god, I can't believe it I did not get the whole season finished in one day, but I did have it finished in two days.

Yeah, I think I was I think I was two. I think I was two. Eight episodes.

Yeah.

Yes.

And desperately want that season two to come out. Wish you would have told me six months later, right before season two releases. I actually I think it might be a little longer than that. I think next spring. But it has been greenlit. I think they greenlit season one and season two because I think it's based on a book or a series of books.

I'd never heard of it, but I had to get it.

my gosh. So have you read further than the show has gone?

Well, I decided since I'd already seen, you know, the show, and that's based on the first book in the series by L. Kennedy called The Deal. The second book is actually about it was very easy to quickly figure out that once I realized that this was based on a book series, it was very apparent to me they were this was gonna be very Bridgerton-like, right? And that each series

would focus on one of the guys, right? Because the hockey's so prominent. And and which is what exactly what's happening. But Logan is actually the focus of the second book. And Dean is the focus of the third book. But since it's very clear that Dean and Allie are going to be the focus of season two, actually jumping ahead and I just started to read the third book first. Because I just kind of want to see what happens.

Mm-hmm.

And then I'll go back and read ep book one and then I'll do book two. So

Okay, well, spoilers everyone. Well we know we already said spoilers, you know, there there's no spoiler guards in the shallows, but we will be severely spoiling off campus and there are some cute reveals and some deep reveals and I would say turn on your prime.

Yeah. We're gonna talk about the whole series. We're not gonna do an episode by episode breakdown, but I imagine for season two we might do the episode by episode breakdown. So or discussion. So yeah. Things I really liked about the production. Okay, so the showrunner is Louisa Levy, I guess is how she says her name, who I never heard of. And she doesn't have a huge resume or C V, but man, she has hit it

out of the park with this one. And she is she did the title play for several of the episodes. but one of the things I really enjoyed were some of the director's choices. Like I really liked the split screen filming a lot or the editing where we would see like Garrett and Hannah doing similar things. But you could like they would one would be turned one way and the other would be turned the other way and then they'd flip it. I I don't know. It I really liked that.

piece of it quite a bit. But of course, the thing that even in the first episode that totally jumps off the screen is the chemistry between the actors. And Ella is played by I'm sorry. Ella Bright and not Dean. Sorry. Garrett is played by Belmont Cameli. Neither of whom I'd heard. I'd only ever seen two of the actors in

Hannah Hannah is

This series before, and none of them were the leads. But, anyways, yeah, but Ella and Belmont have amazing chemistry. I mean, it like shoots out of the screen. And I think that is one of the things that really drew me in. I mean, because it's from the first episode on. Yeah. It's just like boom. Chemistry. Like an explosion in the chemistry lab.

Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Agreed. I'm just really curious, which actors did you know from something else?

Well, I knew the guy playing the coach, Chad Willett, 'cause I've seen him he's a character actor and I've seen him in a lot of Hallmark movies.

Okay, 'cause I didn't recognize him.

okay. Yeah, I don't know, I've always kind of liked him in everything I've seen him in. You know, he's just kind of like always plays kind of an easy going, very likable fella.

Okay, okay. I did not recognize him.

Okay. I also recognize the actor playing Dexter.

Okay, now I'm forgetting who Dexter was.

Dexter was the gay friend that played Puck.

yes, okay, absolutely. Really like Dexter. I'm sorry I forgot who he was. yes, and he did look familiar. What have I seen him in?

Yeah.

You have seen him in ‘Agatha All Along.’ He plays the lead kid's boyfriend. So he's not in a lot, but

Okay.

Okay.

I gotta tell you, Dexter was carrying a lot of weight here in this this series.

I would have liked to have seen more of him.

Hugely. And this is this is a critique I have of this show. It's real white.

Real heterosexual.

And exactly. White and straight. And so Dexter, who was of color and gay, was really carrying a lot of weight for this show. And I would have loved to see and I liked him and would like to see more of him. And so I do hope some of that gets developed. Who knows where the books go. But this is, yeah, it's it is I I would have liked a little more diversity in the show.

You know, in the last episode when they're at the bar and Dex and Tucker are drinking together, I was like, man, that would be great if one of the episodes is about Tucker and Dex hooking up but I think it's Yes. Very heterosexual all books. So

Yeah. So that that's a that's that's my blot there. But okay, so so there are three actors then that I knew because you're absolutely right. I saw Agatha all along.

Third one. Who else did you who else?

My two I have two others. He's the only one we've mentioned so far that I had recognized, or that you reminded me that I should recognize. The other two are the hockey player with the longer hair, I think his name is Yeah, Tucker. Tucker. Just you were just talking about him. Do you recognize Tucker from

I did not 'cause I have not seen the pit.

Okay, so I've seen the pit and so I already loved Tucker because he plays a very endearing character on the pit. Mm-hmm. And I also knew Hunter Davenport. And I don't know if that name is ringing a bell. This is the rival guy that comes in towards the end. Yep, yep. Charlie Evans, he's in Paradise, a Hulu series that is quite good.

And so I definitely recognized him from that. But that's that's all I could.

Okay. Okay.

The dad Garrett's father looked kind of familiar, Garrett. I couldn't peg him.

I thought so too, but I didn't No, I couldn't either. Boy, what a dick.

my god. You know, there were two deeply dark characters in this show, one of them him and the other one Delaney, of course.

Yeah.

And I mean, the way they I mean, I'm just gonna jump right to it because we're gonna be all over the place. But when Garrett sees the woman who his dad is gonna marry Cindy's wrist and it's bruised, and he knows that his dad is abusing her. And you know, we know already that this is happening, but this this reveal that he's doing it again.

And and him just begging Cindy to leave.

God, that scene was just the whole scene was just heartbreaking because I mean you could see, you know, when he's talking to his dad at the brink, and his dad's like, I really want you to come home for Thanksgiving. And he's the dad is talking about what's his name? Pete? Phil. Phil. And Phil Graham. And as his dad is talking and he's like saying all the things.

That Garrett wants to hear. And you can start to see the hope, right? Like maybe he is changing. Maybe Cindy is bringing out the best in him. And you can just, I mean, it's just it, you know, hats off to Bell. He portrayed it so well. It was super subtle, but you could just see it, right? This glimmer of hope. And then you can see it just crushed. Yeah. At in the Thanksgiving dinner scene. And I was just like,

my gosh. And and I thought Ella did a really good job too of Hannah because I think well, I mean, one of the questions I have is do you think she had it figured out prior to the dinner? Or do you think she was maybe suspecting it was more than 'cause I think she already had figured out, right, that his mom had been abused by his dad. I think she kind of figured that out, but not sure and even at this point, right, we haven't a hundred percent

confirmed that Garrett was also abused, even though it's suggested in the flashbacks. But do you think that Hannah had it figured out before the dinner?

Definitely not completely. Like you said, maybe some inklings, maybe some he hasn't told me everything, you know, but boy, I I don't think I don't think completely.

Mm-hmm.

Well, Ella did a really good job of like when she notices the bruise, you can just see it, right? On her face, like she's like, my God And yeah, it was just that whole scene was so intense.

so so intense. And how you know when Cindy says, I'm so sorry, I ruined Thanksgiving. And it's like, my god, no, you are not, you've you've done nothing. Get out, escape. You've done nothing, you know. Yeah. And it's just heart wrenching. And then of course, Garrett.

Yeah.

feeling so much like am I my dad? I scared her. I scare Hannah. You know, I need to get out of here. You know, I d I don't want to be my father, but he's my father, so am I my father?

Yeah, I mean that's the running through line for the whole season for Garrett. I mean, besides the romance, that's the underlying thing, right? He's so hell bent on not being his dad that he's just begins to like exhibit what he's been shown, right, throughout his childhood.

Though I gotta tell you, as much as I'm against beating somebody up when Delaney said that, I I think I think I I think if I had the physicality, I would have beat the shit out of him. You know. Yeah. I I I I could not I just and I know Hannah was upset and of course, but I could not fault Garrett. I I could not equate him to his father.

Mm-hmm. For attacking Delaney. I was

That would be many people's first response, right? And I think once like everything kind of crushed down on him, right? I mean, we're just out of Thanksgiving with that dinner with his dad. He's totally flipping out. He's been spiraling for days. And he just blacks out and go and attacks him. I totally understood that.

I had never talked about this with you before. I had a friend that was r***d. And when she told me, I just started raging. And I was like, who was it? Who was it? I'm gonna go kill him. I was I was just in a blind rage about it. And so I was right there with Garrett. I totally understood what he was going through. So anyways, yeah, I was just like, I

Don't fault that. I don't because I totally understand it. I totally know where he's coming from. And that was a friend. I can't imagine what I would have done with, you know, the person I'm in love with.

and he was totally blindsided, right? Right there on the court, or the ice, whatever what do they call it? Whatever they call it. The ice. I think I think I think ice is appropriate. And already, you know, you're amped up from being in the game. So I I just I just wouldn't I I just feel like in that situation, I wouldn't judge somebody as having a violent personality, violent tendencies. Of course.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

He's not telling anybody because it's not his story to tell. And even so, you know, it's a it's it's it's not a good look at yes, exactly. It's not sportsmanlike and all this sort of stuff, you know. Right. But but those of us who know everything, you know, I think I'm I'm willing to give Garrett a pass on this and understand where that came from.

Really give

Yeah.

And thank God for Logan, right? Pulling him off. Cause but yeah, I that whole, you know, in the aftermath when he's talking with Hannah and they're both spiraling, right? And so they're just kind of like talking beyond each other and and not really understanding.

I mean, 'cause they're so up in their heads and their own feelings that they're they it's almost like they can't. Even like their brains just aren't gonna let them listen to what the other person is saying because they're just not ready to that

And both are seated in such trauma. Right. So I I really hats off to this young relationship. I'm actually incredibly impressed. I wish more, you know, 18 to 21 year olds had the kind of emotional intelligence that a lot of these characters do. Because I couldn't believe how, you know, when they're in the car after Thanksgiving, Hannah's like, what do you need? You know, I I just just time and time again, it's just kind of like, wow.

These are really thoughtful people. But in the scene that you're talking about, yeah, they they they communicated so well in other situations and they were just completely unable to communicate. And I really do think again, both of them coming from this traumatic place, just like you say, they were unable to. They were just too in their own, I'm trying to deal with this, that they couldn't hear.

Right. Right. Right. It was heartbreaking.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it was very clear early on that Hannah had gone through some trauma and you know, at the ice rink when she first when she sees Delaney early on and she starts to this is actually I think the first episode, right? Where sh she's working at the hockey game and sees him and I mean, so it doesn't take a huge leap of logic.

To figure she had been assaulted by, if not that man, somebody that looked very much like him, that would spark the memory. So I was gonna say that's kind of like before they really met, but they had already met in the first abba dabba do scene. That would have been me. I would have been tripping over the laundry cart just like Hannah did when she saw Garrett in the shower.

Yeah.

But anyways, I d even though that scene is traumatic, right? Cause even because Garrett is kind of in one of the beginnings of a spiral because he's had to deal with his dad. She's seen this guy, and she's trying to pull herself out of it. So the scene where she's dancing to the Elton John song, Bit The Bitch is Back. I loved a lot of the music. I loved the old music that they were playing in this. And I just loved how

Yeah.

was watching it sounds creepy. And even he even said it right. I know it sounds creepy, but and then he just kind of was like it kind of pulls him back. And and I think that's one of you were saying that, you know, Hannah was asking what do you need? What you do you need? So I think a lot of the writing was a little bit more adult than the people of this age. But I don't know, maybe I don't know if

kind of thinking about my experience with students, I'm not sure sometimes they really surprise me in good ways. And sometimes they really surprise me like, wow, you're really still very young and naive. So I don't know, but Hannah had to grow up really fast, right? And so she was probably employing many of the methods that her counselor employed with her and so forth. So she probably was a little bit more. I I think what surprised me more and what one of the things that really

pulled me into the series was that the young men really kind of broke the mold. It flipped the script on how generally, you know, sports players and really kind of top tier sports players, whether they're in college or pro, this really kind of flipped the script on that. And I was like, thank God, finally. Finally. And

Yeah.

And while we see it with Garrett, I think it's incredibly clear with Dean.

my god. Okay. Because Dean ends up being my shining star.

I do. my god. Because at first I hate him. You first meet him, and you're like, this is this dick. Yep. This is the frat guy who's having sex with everyone, leaving a trail of broken hearts.

Yes. Yeah.

Well, even in the first few pages of the books, he refers to his well, he says that everybody always calls him a man whore or a horn dog. And so for I mean, so even in the book, that's how he's portrayed.

And I just love that by the end of this season, I love this guy. I do too. And and what I discover is no, he's not using these women. He's completely up front. Yep. He calls himself Six Flags. Yes. Right. And when when Garrett goes to him for

Eight.

Sexual advice, he really gives him amazing advice. And he's just such a great guy.

Yes. Yep.

I was

Absolutely, Dean Deer DeLorentes, even though he's the spoiled rich guy, which we'll find out more about that. You know, was he missing his family or does his family not give a crap about him? You know, but I just my god, yes. So he is my shining star. And hats off to completely turning my opinion around from

ultimate detesting to you're my favorite dude.

Yes, I am right there with you and that scene in the gym is my spotlight scene.

Beautiful pack.

I was just like, holy cow. That just blew me away. And it was and he was still Dean, right? Cause when, you know, Garrett's like, she wants me to do this thing, and Dean's like, do all the things, bro. Do all the things. I mean, that's very Dean. And when, you know, the the girl who's not Hannah, which I thought was kind of funny.

But he's like, if it's her first time, she might not come. And Garrett's like, that's not an option. She has to come. Dean's like, respect. And I was just like, he's still married Dean, right? Then he gets into and then he's like, Man, trust, man, you gotta make her feel completely safe. Yeah. And, you know, when Garrett says he's not sure that she should trust him, and Dean's like, She asked you, so she thinks.

Yeah. That she can and she obviously does. So but then he ends it with right, don't skip the four play or the five play or five play.

Loved it.

just like man that scene for me and again as you said it flipped the script made me really fall in love with dean as a character the actor was fucking amazing he has such great ability to express with his face and it's just it just gets better throughout the whole series like when he

When they're at the party, right, after Garrett well, when Garrett and Hannah are putting on their first real big show of being together and Dean sees Allie dancing, and you could just see something shift in his face. I mean, it's still like you can tell he's really attracted to her. But when she walks away, you can see something flip in his brain, like, Wow, this chick

Yeah.

just walked away from me. And he's like, you know, like women don't do that. And I think it really that's really piques his interest. And he does such a good job of portraying how

How he starts to really fall for her. And the times when she says things that are kind of callous, and you can just see the hurt behind his eyes. god. Yeah, he just did an amazing job. Hats off. Hats off. I'd never heard of the actor before. His name is Stephen Kalen.

Yep. Yep. I hope we see more.

Well we've seen a lot. He had quite a few abadabanoo scenes.

We certainly did. But you know, here I'm thinking he's leaving a trail of broken hearts, which I'm sure there are girls who really wish he'd but I think he's totally up front about it. When is it shoot, what's darn it. Caitlin, what's she was in she was in the Midsummer Night's Dream. She played the other the other girl Kendall, thank you.

Like Kendall really gets hurt, right? Because she thinks she's got a chance with Garrett. And so it's and and Garrett, I really like how Garrett says, Yeah, now I know how you felt. I'm really sorry about that. But it's like, you know, he kind of led her on in a way that I don't think Dean does. I don't think Dean leads on. I think Dean's like, Hey, you can you can come on in, but this is all that's happening. Now I'm not saying that Garrett was really trying to hurt her.

Right.

Deeply.

No, I don't think he was at all. I mean, he even says he's like, I told you I'd yeah looking for casual. So I mean, I think if you're if you don't take somebody up front with what they're saying, then you're leaving yourself wide open to get hurt. So and we d we don't know enough. We don't know enough of their backstory to know how true that is. But we see Dean very, you know, I'm just looking for casual blah blah blah.

That's fair.

And the funniest th I I just had to rewind this about 17 times because you know when Dean and Allie first meet, Allie is dressed as JLo and her boyfriend has to go back to the car. And and Dean is dressed as Maverick. And in the bathroom, when the woman comes out of the stall, this is later, when the woman comes out of the stall and Allie's talking to her, and then

Right.

Yes.

And then Dean comes out of the same stall because he was hooking up with the girl in the bathroom. And and he goes, J Low. And she goes, Maverick.

I rewound it so many times. It was just so

Yeah. And I love the touch I mean there's like that's all that lipstick experience.

my god. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was hard. I mean I had the exact same reaction at first. I'm like, God, here we go. It's gonna be this typical jock.

This guy, yeah, I know exactly who this archetype is, right? Mm-hmm. I was wrong. I was wrong. And the scene that your is your spotlight scene was the turnaround. Right. It was like, wait a second. Wait a second.

Yeah.

Right. Wait. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I watched that scene a lot. Yeah. 'Cause it was just so good. It was just like wow. Wow, wow, wow. Yeah.

So I think my spotlight scene, it's it's tough. It's it's really tough. There's there's several things, but I like the relationship between Allie and Hannah so much. They're always there for each other. And, you know, Allie is so behind Hannah when she doesn't want to drink and she's like, remember what happened to Hannah's friend? You know, and just really kind of protects Hannah. And then when Hannah

Currently.

Finally tells Allie that she's been raped, that the story about her friend, and she doesn't even have to finish. Allie says, You're the friend. And it just makes me tear up even recounting it because she knew. She knew, of course, she knew it was Hannah, but she wasn't gonna push it, she wasn't gonna ask any questions.

Yeah.

And she said, I just figured you'd tell me when you were ready. And so then Hannah doesn't have to feel she's like, please don't start to think of me different or blah blah. And she doesn't have to worry about any of those things because she already knows. And so they're just able to move forward. And so that scene was such a beautiful display of their friendship. And there had been kernels already laid before that.

I think I think that's the one I've got to give my spotlight scene for.

Yeah, that's a good scene. It was a really powerful scene and it really tells you everything you need to know about their friendship.

Yeah.

So and those two actresses had really good chemistry too. They seemed really comfortable with one another. And it sounds like I watched a few interviews and it does seem like that cast bonded really f really well. So hats off to the casting director for this series because all the guys have good chemistry together. The guys with the specific women have chemistry together. It's just

Good alchemy.

I'll tell you who does not have very good chemistry is Allian.

Sean

Allie and her boyfriend? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, Whoa, what no? I also didn't think that Allie had chemistry with Hunter.

Yeah. Even though Yeah. And I think that that is also part of the point, right? Is she was just trying to be like, no, I'm not in a relationship. I can't just go from one monogamous thing to another. You know, I mean total communication with Dean, right? Poor Dean, you're just a little behind. And unfortunate pick with with this guy. But I agree. I don't think there's chemistry.

Hunter St. James.

I think it was just means to an end, you know. Yes. And it doesn't mean anything to her. I mean, I think I think it truly doesn't mean anything to her. Whereas she's trying to convince herself that sex with Dean doesn't mean anything to her. Right. But deep down she knows it does.

Yeah. Yes. She's fighting it very hard. And he is too. He's trying to ignore it. So Yeah. But he's much he's more open to it too. I mean, you know, when Bo points it out he's like, Shit

Yeah. She's fighting it for me.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. W I love when she's like, Yes, but when's the last time anyone but me rode this particular ride? Yeah. He's like,

It's been a while. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know that actor playing Hunter, aka Carter St. James, the fifth? He was giving me George Newburn vibes. Do you know who George Newburn is? Well, I particular I mean, I've seen him in a lot of stuff, but the thing I always remember him from is Adventures in Babysitting.

God. You're really taking me back.

We should do that. He was also in Father of the Bride. Okay. But that's the one I always remember him from.

Okay.

So he was just giving me those vibes.

Well, speaking of vibes, I'll tell you John Logan really gave me Judd Nelson vibes.

Maybe that's what I was getting.

Total breakfast club. The hair, the sort of dark eyebrows, and you know, the just this kind of brooding look. And I I'm glad that that John is gonna get I mean, you know, we we we got a little touch of John and Jules, you know, alcoholic mom and you know, I'm sure there's a lot of history there and he's not getting everything handed to him. And, you know.

In another universe him and Hannah are together, right? Yeah.

They have great chemistry. I thought for sure when her bicycle broke and she pulled out her phone, I was She's gonna call John. my god And 'cause again, I hadn't read the books, I hadn't even heard of the books. So I was like I because I just kept going, John, no, John, no And I'm like, my god, she's gonna call him. This is gonna throw a real big wrench in there in Garrett John's friendship But then she called her mom. So

I was just I just kept going, no John, no, don't go there, John, don't go there. But yeah, that guy has a smile that just can melt you. You know. Yeah. It's just like, whoa, dude. Nice, nice smile.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I have to say, you mentioned hair. The series might have turned me around on the modern mullet.

Breaking news, ladies and gentlemen. This is huge.

I bitch about mullets all the time. It's so many of the characters have modern mullets. I'm like, damn, they're making even a mullet look good.

Well, you know, there was a whole lot in the pro column.

Yes there was, yes there was. But yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing more of Logan's story. I did read that the actor that plays Jules, they are not in season two. And I'm like, okay, how are they gonna write her sorry, them out because they were such an integral part.

Hmm.

Of season one. I'm like, What do you mean they're not gonna be in season two?

Is recasting possible?

I mean that is one flaw I did have in the series. And I did not buy that John and Jules were siblings. I mean, in looks, right? Could they have looked possibly a little bit alike in something? But there were no features in common at all. And so that

Mm-hmm.

kind of took me out of them as siblings, but I thought they were both good actors. I don't have any problem with that. But and I thought they acted like siblings. So I just couldn't buy the physicality of it. And that's I think an important part of a show, right? You gotta buy into it.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. for sure. For sure.

well. Anyways, but yeah, I was I loved look John's character, sorry. Go ahead.

Yes. No no no. Let's stay on John.

Okay. Yes. Yeah, so I mean he's clearly got his own trauma with the stuff going on with his mom. And you know, his dad's like totally out of the picture, totally opposite economic strata from Garrett, yet they're still really good friends. And he's just he's really kind of a father figure for all of the hockey guys. Just like Tucker's like a mother figure always taking care of everybody, right? Yeah, but I mean

Thanksgiving meal.

I mean it was really clear John he was gonna kinda fall for Han or at least feel like he's falling for Hannah too. And I was like, no. I don't wanna see John's heart broken.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

But he did a good job of showing that in his eyes as well, right? So I love the scene when Hannah kisses him in the locker room and he's just like okay.

Yeah. I'm going to

You okay?

Amen.

Yeah. And then at the karaoke, when he's watching her, I'm like, John, don't go there, please And that is Antonio Cipriano is the actor playing John Milgan.

Yes. The Judd Nelson.

Jud Nelson. Yeah, he does have those brooding eyes.

he really does. He really, really does. What I was gonna say was I really liked we we don't get much of Hannah's parents, but I think the little bit we get shows us everything we need to know that

That's an odd.

Totally supporting her. I loved when Hannah called and she was like, I'm so sorry. And her in her mom's like, And explain to me, what did you do wrong? You know, if you're if you're feeling sorry, you must have done something wrong, you know? And she's like, No, dear, you did nothing wrong. She she said exactly what a mother should say, you know.

And so hats off. And so the parents totally understand why she doesn't come home for Thanksgiving, because this whole trial just turned the town against her whole family, you know? Yes. And and you can just tell, I mean, because the son had a father who was in power, you know. And and and with the little bit we get of Delaney, we see how it perfectly, yeah, that absolutely is what happened. So

So again, we don't get much of Hannah's parents, but I think we get all we need to know, which is

great. Yeah. You know, even after the phone conversation between Hannah and Garrett and Mama Wellesy, as I have in all my notes, Mama Wellesie. I was like, I like her. I was trying to find the name of the actor playing her. Okay. So I recognized I I don't I forgot. I did recognize the actor playing her dad. Yeah, that's Bob Fraser. But I don't remember what I've seen him in. I just recognized him.

And I still haven't found Mama Wellsy. Carrie. Sheila Horsdal? Haven't heard of her before, but yeah, I thought, man, that's how a parent should react, right? That's what you need a parent to do. So yeah, I've I was like, she was in the Bletchley Circle, but that's the

I didn't even know this was a series, the Bletchley Circle, San Francisco. Hmm. Wonder if it's good as the original. She was in Noel. That movie? We watched that. She played Dr. Shelley Sussman. I don't remember that character either. Yeah. I liked them both. And I'm like, they're playing you, girl. It's definitely a Midwest thing. So

my gosh. What we sure did.

Character at all.

There you go.

You know who else deserves a shout out is David, the the advisor. He was also great. and thank goodness, a person of color. Yes.

Yes.

I wanted her to tell him so much when she was spiraling. You know? When she walked in there and saw him when he was playing, I was like, she's gonna tell him, she's gonna tell him But no. She didn't. I was like

Well, and you know, I totally you know, she doesn't want it to define her. And she knows that people do act differently when they know. Yeah, you know, I I have such empathy for her. For sure. You know, it is just so hard. And you know, even if a person I mean, the person who said all the right things was Allie. Having already

Yeah, it's yeah.

magically known her so well she'd already figured it out, you know. so it's very hard to be that person.

Yeah.

This is kind of there's this isn't a segue, but I just my eye landed on one of my notes. And this is when Garrett and Hannah have already been doing their little play acting thing, and Allie's the only one that knows. But there's a scene at hockey practice. So they're all there. It's after Tucker has got his whole fruit assignment, which we need to talk about. That was fun.

Garrett is talking first with Logan about Hannah. And then he jumps into the rink. And Bertie is like, You're into her, man. Yeah. And Garrett, they're both all like, What? And it's kinda like it's like Garrett knew he just needed somebody to say it out loud for him. Like he didn't want to be the one to say it.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, way to go. My note is like, Bertie is the dude. So it's too bad that he gets conked on the head. Yeah. He gets hit by fucking Delaney.

God, that asshole.

Yeah. So anyways, I thought it was interesting, but I also thought that was an important scene, you know, because we didn't really see Logan doing badly on the ice during practice, but people are talking about it. The guys are talking about it. And of course then we see him after getting in the truck with Jules. Mm-hmm. And Jules calls him out on it. And I was like, Man, Logan, you're letting your jealousy show. So

Yeah.

The one character's name is John Logan in case we've now confused anybody who hasn't seen the series. It's Garrett Graham, Dean Dee Laurentis, John Logan. I don't remember Tucker's last name. I

I think Tucker's first name is also John. I think it's John Tucker and John Logan, which is a little confusing. So you gotta go last names.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I gotta go last names. So anyhow, I I like that scene where Carrot's finally like, Okay. I'm gonna have to admit this to myself that I actually like this girl.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they that's when they go to drunk Shakespeare. And I love Dean, right? During this whole scene he's like, tell her, man, you gotta go now. So that was awesome. Drunk Shakespeare was fun.

Yeah.

Drunk Shakespeare was a ton of fun. I mean, you know how mu how much I'm down when Shakespeare gets involved. So that also in what was this episode three? I mean, that also endeared me. And when Titania, aka Ally, just goes off on her own rant about her boyfriend, isn't it? yeah.

I and and yeah, you can just see Dean light up. I mean, I knew. I I did know when when he was going off by himself and Allie was going off, I was like, those two are hooking up, you know. And they were. And so

That was not a surprise, but I loved the how they then backtracked and showed all the other pieces. Because, you know, you think the do not call has got to be her ex. And and I had not I had not put that together yet that

I hadn't either. I knew they were gonna hook up. I love, love, love, love, love how they revealed it. That was amazing. Beautiful choice. Beautiful choice. We haven't really talked about Tucker. I don't wanna, you know, end it without talking a little bit more about Tucker. Yeah. Because he's younger than seems like he's younger than the others by a little bit. Not much, but a little bit.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

takes on the Thanksgiving with great enthusiasm.

Of John and Dean's expression when he throws open the refrigerator and packed full.

And hats off to Logan and Jules for Lypium, like what do you need? Then of course Jules derails things. But you know. But Logan is all in and then then the entire community is in, right? Including the guy lowering the wet turkey into the hot oil. Thank goodness he was well, well protected.

Yeah. Very clear that Tuck was gonna forget to pat the turkey dry 'cause they must have said it about five times. So I was like, Once they said deep fried turkey, I'm like, that thing's gonna explode. Yes.

Yeah.

This is this has got to be. There's only one way this goes. So yeah, I mean I I do so love that actor from The Pit and he was definitely an ad in this series, but I I feel like other than the Thanksgiving episode, he didn't get a lot. We didn't have a ton.

In season two, they start to ramp him up a little bit. And I mean, they're gonna have to in season three. I guess the showrunner said she didn't like it when all of a sudden there's this new couple that you're supposed to be, you know, all into and so forth, and it's supposed to be the focus, which is why we see s quite a bit of the Dean and Allie story, which is actually in book three, in this first episode.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or this first series. Season one, yeah. And so next season with the focus on Dean and Allie, we're still gonna get a lot of Logan and his burgeoning love interest. So I'm assuming they'll probably start to delve a little bit more into Tuck's character in season two, but then in season three, they'll really start to ramp him up for when he's

the focus in season four. And I think they should totally change it from the book and have him hook up with Dex. 'Cause I thought they looked amazing together.

Love it. Love the idea because Dex needs more airtime. yes. And and Dex is a very cool character. He's a great friend as well. Yes. Right. He he doesn't get as much airtime or, you know, story depth as Allie does. But I'd like to know more of Dex's story.

Yeah.

Yes. Yep. I'm just watching his interactions with Allie and Hannah. I was like, man, I miss my male gay friends. They're just so like, man. So I'm curious as to the type of individual that Tuck would be interested in.

Nine.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

While they made it clear he was one of the four main guys, right? We don't get to know much know much more about him except he seems to be a mama's boy, right? Calls his mama. About the Thanksgiving dinner. And he seems to be younger, he seems to be a caretaker. So I'd be interested with just that little bit that we know about him, what this other individual will be like. I will find out.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Find out.

Tuned, yes, and I definitely could see us doing at least you know, bundling a couple of episodes together, you know. But I will be hot off the presses on season two, that's for sure.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like I said, and I had never heard of it. It's getting rave reviews all over the internet. And the people who are familiar with this book series seem to be okay with the things that are different.

Okay. Okay.

you know what I wanted to ask you? Do you think that John was out of line when he one goes behind Garrett's back and asks Phil, Graham, Garrett's dad, for that donation? And two, is he out of line when he goes behind Dean's back and recruits Hunter Davenport for the team?

Okay, so the first one. Garrett has not let him in on anything about the relationship with his dad or who his dad is. He cares deeply about this cause. It is for a good cause. So do I think he overstepped? Yes. But do I give him a lot of grace on overstepping?

Because of the reason he did it. And if he kind of thought, well, he just doesn't want to talk to his dad. I can just get this done. I've got a relationship with the dad, you know, I'll take this off his plate. But the second one, yeah, I mean, it's the team, right? I I think that, well, but they're they're in kind of dire straits. And he realizes his future is on the line. I don't know.

I both of them are complicated. What do you think? What what do you think in both cases?

Well, I have to th I think he was. Because both Garrett and Dean made it incredibly cle even if they didn't explain it to him, yeah. They made it incredibly clear that this was a ver it would have been a it was very negative for them in each situation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe if John had made an effort to try to dive deeper. I guess he does with Garrett. So maybe I understand it a little bit more there. But I mean, Dean, it is clear that something has happened with this guy and his and Dean's sis. So I think he was totally beyond the pale on that one.

Yeah.

Yes, no, I think I I agree that the second one is more egregious. I can certainly come up with some additional motivation for why he does it. Sure. But it is still it it's it's not good. And I mean it's the team chemistry, right? It doesn't matter how good this player is, if it destroys your team chemistry, that's not gonna, you know. Right.

Right. Help. And first I was like, is it even his responsibility? Isn't it the coach's responsibility to be doing something like that?

Seriously, that seems very strange. Very, very strange.

Yeah.

Yes. I thought that was weird. Quite understand it.

But yeah.

Very interesting question. And speaking of sort of slightly deceitful, how did you know? And going behind people's back when Allie tells Dean that the showcase is going on. Allie is on, you know, and how do you know this? And I love is it Birdie? Somebody total Bo saves Dean's.

yeah.

By saying I heard it in the stance.

And of course I'm like, well, then why is Dean telling everybody and not Bo?

But you know what? It at least diffused the situation because Dean was a deer in headlights. He had no idea how to explain this bit of information. Dean has been put in a bit of a pickle here, ladies and gentlemen.

Yes, he sure has. Yeah, good old Bo. that's, you know, a friendship that deserves more time, right? Maybe we'll get more of that in season two. 'Cause it seems like they've known each other for a long time.

Yeah, definitely enough time so that I remember the dude's name.

Yeah. Yes. I love the car scene when they're driving to New York and Allie's in the backseat and and they're doing all the Broadway shows. And Dean is just like, I wanna see the dance video that Bo showed Al yeah. Dean was in I was like I wanna see the

Yes.

For sure. For sure. Yeah, that was awesome. That's right, because Bo's sister is the one yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't talk about Bo's sister and Ali's kind of insight into Broadway and what it really takes to be pursue the life that

Tori 01:00:53.134

Could have done without Bo's sister calling Allie dude all the time. I hate that so much. It's a big pet peeve of mine. So

What? Just kidding. Just kidding.

Yeah.

Just kidding.

Yeah. the other thing I was wondering, you know, Hannah and Garrett are broken up, but Hannah talks to him a little bit at the s the rink, and Garrett tells her that he's thinking about quitting. But it's after he talks to Hannah that he goes back to the the ice hockey frat house, whatever. Which by the way

Nice digs all these college students are in.

Off campus.

Yeah, yeah. But Garrett then tells John about his dad. Do you think that he would have done that if he hadn't talked to Hannah? And do you think John suspected at all? 'Cause John was pretty savvy in a lot of ways.

It's true, but I really hope he had not. Because if he had, then your previous question to me, then it's unforgivable for him going behind his back and going to his dad. So if he suspected any of that abuse, then he that was just a terrible thing for him to do. It's terrible for him to even want to continue to have his name

you know fundraising exactly exactly so I guess with that I have to think if he does suspect it at all it's very subconscious that it he hasn't processed it so I I don't I don't think I don't think so I I think he knows his dad is hard on him a real hard ass you know a lot to live up to all this kind of stuff

Right.

But the abuse

I I don't think so. I mean, I I think Garrett really played that real close to the vest. And I'm gonna be very disappointed in Logan's behavior if he did really think he was being abused.

Yeah. Do you think Garrett would have told him if he hadn't talked to Hannah?

What do you think?

Think he would have.

Yeah, I mean he hasn't up until now.

Right, right. I think, you know, when she says, you know, y you have a reason to be playing and it's the guy on your right. And that's when Garrett really realizes what Logan did for him by pulling him off of Delaney. I don't think Garrett would've stopped if s if Logan would have pulled him off. Yeah. Because then Garrett was beating the shit out of him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean and I mean it was clear that Garrett didn't know that Logan had done that and I'm not sure he would have even watched that video and found that out. I didn't if it had yeah.

Yeah.

I think you're right. You know, I'm I'm a little disappointed that we were robbed of that scene. You know, this this show really went there over and over again with the tough conversations. And I wish we would have been able to see that. I wish we would have been able to see Logan's response. Maybe Logan would have then apologized about going to the dat you know.

Mm-hmm.

Probably did, you know, we just we just didn't get to see that interaction between those two friends. And that disappoints me because I feel like we got to see all the other interactions.

Yeah. Yeah, what about maybe we'll see it We will with the little flashbeppy thing.

Maybe we're

Yeah, this show does weave flashbacks in with great effect. So yeah, I that'd be awesome.

And I'm kind of I because I'm wondering, since we didn't get to see that interaction in full, if it's during that conversation that Logan really comes to the understanding that Garrett and Hannah should be together and they really need to be together. So 'cause I can't imagine during that whole converse I mean, he always tells John that Hannah's the only person he's talked to about this.

So I'm wondering because you know, when they're getting ready to go to the or when they're trying to talk Garrett is going to the whatever performance that Hannah's doing, the showcase, you know, John's like, You guys you guys are perfect for each other, you know. May maybe not in those exact words. So I'm wondering if it that conversation 'cause I I'm because I've also kind of wondered if if John hasn't felt

without wanting to really acknowledge it. Some competition and jealousy over Garrett for other reasons, right? And it just kind of got transferred to Hannah, you know? Like 'cause Garrett everybody's always concerned. What does Garrett want? And Garrett seems to get everything he wants. And, you know, he's got all this money. He doesn't have to worry about money. And John clearly was always having to work worry about money and and stuff like that. So I'm wondering if some of that was kind of a maybe a little bit of transference.

That's a great hypothesis. Yeah. And my gosh, this whole of course it was a violation for him to be doing that practice with the Bruins or whatever. I can't believe he did that. I mean, I think that that almost caused more of the suspension than the fight. You know? I was so

That was not smart. That was not smart.

Yeah. I've mixed feelings about the N C double A.

Well, that's fair.

Good in theory, I'm not sure it's as with most institutions, sometimes in practice it gets fucked up, but

Fair and with name, image and likeness. All the rules are different now, but

Yeah, yeah.

But you know, he says he knew the rule, right?

for me I would I mean i if I was that age I would say well they weren't paying me so it's not like I'm a was a member I'm not a member of them and they didn't hire me. We were just skating around and fooling around after their practice.

Well, and honestly, if that was the rule, the Bruins should have known better.

Ruins should have known better, yes.

We can't do that because we'll get this kid, you know, or then maybe it was maybe it was, good, then he'll be a pariah and and we want him and so then we'll get him because we're the only team that'll take him. I don't know.

that could be 'cause if they could still sign him and they don't probably don't give a shit, but but still, yeah. I liked Garrett wanting to complete school, right?

Yes.

So that was smart. Yes. I hate like all of these really good decisions Garrett's making and his dad's proud of him when he beats the shit out of Delaney.

My God. Well that that was perfect. I mean, yeah. This isn't a surpr because he knows that's exactly what he would do, even without without being provoked, you know? Yeah. And and I

And then his dad going, You are me. I was like, he just said the word that's gonna literally set Karen off.

a and Garrett tries to distance himself. it's it's it's hard. It's so hard to see. And I love that Hannah took that picture of his mom to give to him.

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. They were really cute together. I feel like we kind of skimmed over them a little bit.

yeah.

In our rush to get Dean. I feel like we skipped over Hannah and Garrett a little bit.

Well, it's true. When she when she goes and plays that song in the hockey rink because she realizes she is actually hot for Garrett, not hot for the

that was so yeah. Very romantic.

Yeah, very rom com.

Very much so with the big I mean, and that's a f a f fantasy a lot of young women have, right? Like big romantic rom com moments and and so forth and but I also thought a lot of times they were showing their age, right? Because it's very clear that they both are interested in the other and yet just I'm like, come on, man, it's so fucking clear already.

Get on with it. Yeah. And I'm like, but they're showing their age and some of that insecurity you have at that age. So one of my favorite scenes between Hannah and Garrett is at Malone's on karaoke night. And and and this is actually a good example of one I think John was really savvy, right? Because at that one party, you know, Hannah says she doesn't drink at parties. And Garrett tells that to John. And John like immediately figures

It out and he gives he goes. Yeah, he's like, here taking it for a beer. It's safer, man. It's a closed can. And I was like, Man, John's got it together. But yeah, I mean, Garrett takes that to heart. He learns from it, right? And so when they're at the bar and he asks Hannah, Do you want a drink? And and then he guards her freaking drink when she's up on stage singing. And I loved it.

was she picked Warren's cherry pie, 'cause that was the scene where she walked in on Garrett with somebody else. And I thought that was brilliant. And and it's it's really starting to be clear, of course, to all of us as in the audience, the viewers, that Garrett is totally into her, even if he's not willing to kind of admit it to himself. I mean, there was just so many times when I was like Garrett's a good guy. You know? Yeah.

Yeah.

And like when Hannah's totally wasted after the bar that same night, right? And and he's like, No, you're drunk. And then when she asks him to give her an orgasm, great scene. The orgasm scene, by the way, done very well, without being explicit. But

He was great in that scene as well, right? Like you're not ready, you don't trust me enough. That's totally fine. That is perfectly normal. And so there were just a lot of moments like that where I was like, Shit, man, Garrett's a good guy.

yeah.

This is where what I'm saying, that kind of maturity that you just do not expect from a college.

Yeah. Kid. Yeah. And I'm like, God, I hope a lot of high school guys and college guys watch this series. Yeah. It's like this is what you're supposed to be doing, guys.

And this is being an amazing lover. An amazing, you know. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And even Dean is a good lesson, right? Because he's Yes totally upfront. He's open with the women that he's with. But, you know, then when he starts to get interested in Allie, he changes his behavior. and he totally respects her as well too, right? Leaves it all up to her. So hated it.

Yes.

Rides club.

Yeah.

At the bar, the last scene. When he's like, you know, I like us. He's like, I didn't complete the assignment. And Allie's like, you have to complete the assignment because I completed the assignment. And the look on his face. I was like, god. That guy because there's so many times when you both Garrett and Dean, you just see like hope on their face. They do a really good job of like.

Yeah.

showing hope without really saying anything and he's so crushed I was like he's so deep and then when he sees who it's with my god

Yeah.

I know.

I know. The horror person it could possibly

I really wanna know what the hell that dude did to his sister.

Yeah, I'm afraid it cannot be good.

Yeah. Yeah.

Then he plays chess with himself when he's alone and just hanging out.

This guy bring on season two, man. Bring on season two.

I know

So watch it people. Give it a go. This is this more than meets the eye here. More than meets the eye.

Yes.

Yep.

Yeah. In this one it's the nerd that's the big callous asshole. I was like, Dump his ass, Allie, if he's not gonna support your dreams. Oh, that scene. I was like, dump his ass, dump his ass. And then and it's the jocks that turn out to be the the sensitive dudes.

yeah.

Jocks with a heart of gold.

I'm not gonna say what just popped into my head. So

All right.

If you've never seen Dirty Dancing, you might want to watch it before you see this series 'cause otherwise a lot of things might go right over your head.

Fair, Hannah's favorite movie.

I liked the many eighties references. I was into it. My time

Beautiful.

It was great. Good eighties music. I like the eighties music much more than I like the modern pop music, of course. No big surprise there. But yeah, go watch this. It's surpr- it's surprisingly deep. All right. On that note, I'm gonna say it one more time and then I'm gonna say goodbye.

"ab"ba dabba doo!

What's...

Bye everybody.

Thanks for listening. I think you should stop it after "ab"ba dabba doo. I think I think that's where this episode should end.

This doesn't leave the weight room. We're not actually having this conversation.

It's just that I uh I really want it to be good for her.

If it's her first time, she might not come.

Not an option. She has to come.

Respect. Well, there's one thing that helps make a girl come. The single most effective, highly recommended, enjoyed by all tool at your disposal. Trust. That's it. She's just gotta feel completely safe. Like completely relaxed. But consent is key.

And she can't consent if she doesn't feel safe. So you just you just gotta figure out whatever makes this specific girl who is not Hannah feel safe.

Wallowing in Shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for Wallowing in the Shallows is Apache Rock instrumental by Sound Atelier. Available on jamendo.com. You can send us feedback at witstvpod at gmail.com. If you enjoyed Wallowing in the Shallows with us, why not hit that follow button on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Captivate, and pretty much anywhere else to get your podcast fixed.