The topics include:

• International Women’s Day
• History
• Is It Still Relevant?
• Shae Volunteers
• Essential Poll
• Yikes
• Dutton and Friendly Jordies
• Clive Palmer
• Scott Morrison
• Robert Reich: Only the right has become more extreme over the last 50 years
• Twitter feedback
• My response
• Gillard
• Chinese Influence in Australian Politics
• Chinese Influence in Australian Universities
• Re Huawei
• Email Feedback from Paul
• Ukraine ep 330
• What is Russia Demanding?
• Kennedy Compromised
• Trump
• History and Context
• Whataboutism
• John Pilger
• Vladimir Pozner – How the United States Created Vladimir Putin
• The Treatment of Russia is being repeated with China
• Experts Warned For Years That NATO Expansion Would Lead To This
• John Mearsheimer
• Stephen F Cohen
• Stephen M Walt
• George Kennan
• William Burns
• Jack Matlock
• Joe Biden in 1997
• Nelson Mandela on Atom Bomb
• Unelected Tech and Ukraine
• AUS Sanctions and Malcolm Fraser
• More on Sanctions - Calwell and China
• America Defeats Germany for the Third Time in a Century
• Buy Gold?
• Biden on Russia getting help from China
• No Fly Zone – Is that a good idea?

Mentioned in this episode:

Website

Suburban Eastern Australia, an environment that has, over time,

evolved some extraordinarily unique groups of homosapiens.

Despite the reputation of their homeland, some are remarkably thin skinned.

Some seem to have multiple lifespans, a few were once thought

to be extinct in the region.

Others have been observed being sacrificed by their own.

But today We observe a small tribe akin to a group of meerkats that gather together

atop a small mound to watch, question, and discuss the current events of their city,

their country, and their world at large.

Let's listen keenly and observe this group fondly known as the

Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove.

Happy International Women's Day, everybody.

My name is Shea, and if this is your first time joining us, this is

a podcast called the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove, where we discuss

news, politics, sex, and religion.

Joining me tonight, as always, is the Iron Fist, aka Trevor, and Joe, the tech guy.

It's a pleasure to be on.

Thank you, Shea.

Evening all.

Um, thanks Shea for that introduction.

Do you want me to keep going or do you want to keep going?

I think, I think I'll handball it to you.

Okay, yep.

So in honour of International Women's Day, Shea kicked us off.

Uh, welcome dear listener.

Yes, the Iron Fist and the Velvet Glove podcast, news and

politics, sex and religion.

So, it's, uh, International Women's Day, um, shaded some volunteering with the

floods, we'll hear about that, we've got, um, oh, Peter Dutton, Clive Palmer, Scott

Morrison, up to their usual mischief.

God, I'll be glad to see the back of all of them.

And, um, we've got some feedback that I got from Twitter, and depending on how

much time we've got left How much we delve into more Ukraine stuff, and whatever else

Joe and Shea come up with in the meantime.

So, Shea, International Women's Day, did you do anything to celebrate?

Anything special?

Uh, I worked.

Right.

Uh, so I didn't do anything special.

Mm hmm.

Yep.

I haven't really worked out how to commemorate it yet.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Whether it should be a cupcake or a bra burning.

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't think there was any Well, I don't know, there might have been some

functions around town where businesswomen gathered together or ladies, I don't

know, but I don't know what was on, but um, you've been doing some volunteering

with the floods, is that right?

I have, yeah.

Like you took a week of holiday and you went and mucked out mud somewhere?

That's right.

So, um, I took a week of holiday and I spent a little bit of time at the

Gold Coast and then I was supposed to go, um, to Sydney for the Mardi Gras,

uh, which was something that was, had been on the bucket list for a while.

But, uh, when I got back to my apartment, which is in Ashgrove,

which you may have seen on the news.

The devastation was pretty bad, so I decided I was needed here and that

the Mardi Gras could wait and that I'm sure they could celebrate without me

and I could come maybe next year and I signed up to do some volunteering.

So this is like the Mudd Army, just go online?

Yeah, the Mudd Army.

So first, um, it seemed like Um, it'd be on on Thursday, but then there was

this forecast of this dangerous storm, so it all got cancelled until Saturday.

So by Saturday, um, most of the volunteering was around community

places, so I went to a softball court and helped them move things, shift

things, find things, and then went on to the Strikers Soccer Club to help

them sort of gurney and scrub there.

Their walls.

Mm-Hmm.

Yep.

So pretty muddy at the end.

Pretty muddy.

Yeah.

It was absolutely covered in shit at the end.

Not actual sewage, but yeah.

Mm.

It, it, I kept saying like, it smells like island.

'cause my grandparents own a farm in Ireland and Right.

That's what you could smell.

You could smell the mud and the Yeah.

The wetness and the dampness.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah.

And I was really, really impressed by, um, the spirit of the volunteers.

I think, um, even though we didn't have clear structures, it was really well

coordinated, um, and the people who were just like obvious leaders just showed

up and just started directing people.

Um, but yeah, I just did also observe that I think the goodwill of

Australians is starting to run out.

The frustration of not having appropriate planning, much consideration

around resilience, obviously.

No one's talking about climate change.

Right.

So people were mumbling these sorts of things as they're mucking away.

Right.

Did she say climate change?

Oh, yeah.

Did she drop the seam on?

Oh, she did.

Hmm.

Right.

Well, I'm glad.

She's still approving coal mines, but she at least knew about climate change.

This is, yeah, hypocrisy yet again.

If I rename this podcast, it'll be the Exposing Hypocrisy Podcast, because,

yeah, I mean you can have a position on something which sometimes might be right

or wrong, not that there is with climate change, but when you do one thing and

say another, it's um, it's often what is happening in our political system, yeah,

yeah, so, I saw her on the news tonight because In Brisbane, we've had this

restaurant that basically got unmoored.

It was like a floating restaurant, and it ended up washed on the side

of the Brisbane River after the last flood, and this time it got picked up

again and I thought that had happened.

and got washed again to the other side of the river.

And Anastasia Palaszczuk was on the news going You know, somebody

needs to do something about this.

We really need to start making some decisions about this place.

It was like, Anastasia, you are the Premier, isn't that your job?

Why do we have to keep reminding them?

Fuck, it's frustrating.

Excuse my French.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The people who are in government, Peter Dutton wants to start a

GoFundMe and it's like, I know.

You are the government.

That's for other people to do.

You should be rustling up government money from whatever funds are

available that are seemingly untouched.

There are four billion dollars sitting in the Future Emergencies

Fund, or whatever it is.

Yes.

But, you know, that's what you do.

You lean into that, pull some money out, and splash it around.

Like, it's so easy.

You can just say, here, I've reached into the fund, I've provided this

money, and we're going to do all this.

Why wouldn't she?

Why wouldn't she?

Just, they're such hopeless organisers.

Liz Moore was saying that they'd been applying for emergency flood relief

funding to build infrastructure, you know, build a levee or whatever.

Um, and they got taken off the list because they weren't a marginal seed.

Yes, yeah, so Sorry, sorry, the second part was an assumption.

But the first part is true.

They were taken off the list.

Yeah, I've got two customers in, Liz Moore.

I managed to speak to one of them and yeah, they've been through so many

floods, they're completely crushed.

And they, you know, it's like three and four metres deep in the centre of town.

Even if you had a higher mezzanine level to put things on, it still got flooded.

And you know it's going to happen again.

And it's, you know, it's more of a sizeable country town, and that whole

CBD is just flat and subject to flooding.

And, and Oh, I just feel so sorry for people.

I couldn't do it.

I'd have to just cut my losses.

What's that?

Gimpy and Marabar too.

Yes, Marabar though!

I've got another customer in Meriburra, and they're in the CBD,

but Meriburra had the temporary levee.

Did you see that?

Uh, I saw it last time round when the water came up the storm drains

and got up behind the levee.

Yeah, they fixed that, and this time it worked quite effectively.

And so, um, if you're able to find a picture of it, throw it

up later, Joe, um, from Google.

It's a metal structure and plastic, and they put it up in the street

and protect most of the CBD.

So My customer in Maryborough, Main Street, would have been

flooded, but, um, rescued.

But, Lisbon was a different matter, you know, it's so big, and, um, and, uh, one

of my other friends was saying, you know in Christchurch, Shai, like how they have

regular earthquakes, and things like that.

In New Zealand, The government does the insurance because no insurer

would insure earthquake in, say, Christchurch, so the government doesn't.

And I think that's the case in some areas in America where it's flood

prone, where the government steps in and provides some sort of insurance.

at a reasonable rate and just wears the loss because you just have to.

Um, either that or just help an entire town relocate.

I don't know how you would do it.

So yeah, there's a picture, um, of that structure, which they whacked up.

The first time they did it in the floods a few months ago, it failed

because water sort of came up through the stormwater or something, but

this time it worked quite well.

And, um, that couldn't be done in, um, Lismore because

it's just too high in Lismore.

It's like three meters.

So, um, yeah, very interesting, that sort of thing.

So And of course tonight, if you're in Sydney, you're being,

um, you're very wet as well.

I'm so glad I didn't make that trip to Sydney.

I would have been stuck somewhere watching it.

So they've, um, so yeah, they're in trouble down there.

So at least, you know, the silver lining to all of this natural disaster is

people are thinking this isn't normal and Clearly, climate is acting in a peculiar

way that it hasn't acted before, and maybe something really is going on, so

it is getting people to, um, come across.

Yeah, I mean, the fact that we got almost a metre of rain in

three days, um, my local rain gauge, uh, Mount Glorious had 1.

8 metres.

Yes.

Yep.

Incredible amount, yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, Bromman says, New Zealand has earthquake commission, it can only

provide fairly basic assistance in the event of natural disasters, so, hmm,

okay, yeah, I just, yeah, I just feel sorry for these people in Lismore,

it's tough, so, yeah, and smelly, and And their stories, oh my god.

Another customer in Woolloomba.

And just the stench, and ugh, and not being able to redo your business, so.

Anyway, I cut my finger two weeks ago carving, um, uh, a zucchini, and five

stitches later it's still healing.

So I'm going nowhere near mud, particularly laced with sewerage, so.

Not that I would have anyway, so I applaud you, Shane, for your, um, good work.

I did the Mud Army in 2011, but by the time, like, the Council put us on

buses and sent us out to this suburb I'd never been to before, but kind

of the area they sent us to really pretty much had done everything they

needed to do, so there really wasn't anything for us to do at that point, so.

I kind of wasn't with the Mun Army.

I technically was part of the Labour Party's community sort of action thing.

Yeah, because I signed up for the Mun Army, but it all got too Hard.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, I heard they were oversubscribed.

Yeah.

Meanwhile, Tom the Warehouse Guy says the Accident Compensation Corporation regime

in New Zealand is quite revolutionary.

It is a system that works very well in New Zealand.

Okay.

So, Accident Compensation Corporation working well.

New Zealand Earthquake Commission maybe not so well.

Anyway, I know they have resorted to government insurance in New Zealand.

Yeah.

You'd have to be careful because otherwise insurers will just

be taking the easy way out.

Mm.

Yep.

So, you'd have to make sure that it wasn't gamed.

Yeah.

You know, I think Well, the CEO of Suncorp came out and actually really said some

things that I wish some of our government leaders had said, which is, we spend 97

percent or something on, um, cleanup.

And we spend like 3 percent on mitigation and prevention.

And it was just like so straight up.

Yep.

That, you know, the consumer's going to wear this, premiums are

going to go up, like, do something.

Yes, and people were complaining, we've got this money in these funds

and it just doesn't get spent.

Even though Liz Moore asked for it and they get knocked back, yeah.

So, plenty of ammunition for Labor to work with.

In the upcoming election, whenever that is.

You know, I'm getting quite philosophical about this election.

I'm Are you?

Yeah, in the sense, I'm actually quite cool with the Morrison victory now.

Because I really think if he wins, despite all of this, then you just

know that it's the end of the world.

The situation is truly hopeless.

If he can pull this off, then everybody has to understand there's a major problem.

I could have been rolled either way.

So, I'm quite philosophical about him actually.

Part of me wants him to win now, just so that there'll be a revolution

if he actually wins, I would think.

Yeah.

So, anyway, either way, I'm okay now.

That's my philosophy on it.

International Women's Day, um, had its roots sort of in socialist,

leftist sort of movements, and um And a little bit to do with Soviet

Russia as well, anyway, as how they settled on the date, 8th of March.

So, definitely a left wing sort of origin to International Women's Day.

And, you know, do we still need it?

Um, I saw this tweet where this guy, Darren Gilmore, tweeted, um, So, New

South Wales girls in public schools get free tampons and sanitary products.

32 million dollars from the first year.

And wait for it, 28 million per year after that.

WTF?

What do the boys get?

This person responded, they get to never have to bleed out of their penis

every month or push a baby out of it.

I think there's still a place for International Women's Day based on that.

Yes, I think there is.

Um, let's go to, I've got this, Essential came out with some stuff.

Let me just, uh, find, no, not that, share, anyway, share

this screen, uh, share screen, hang on, uh, that one, share.

So, essential poll, to what extent do you agree or disagree with

the following statements about gender equality in Australia?

And the dark blue is strongly agree, the light blue somewhat agree,

orange somewhat disagree, and red strongly disagree, and grey is unsure.

So blue agree, red and orange disagree.

And first one is, gender equality, meaning that men and women are

equal, has come far enough already.

And you've got about 50 percent roughly, what's that, um, 48 percent

of people think that, um, gender equality, meaning that men and women

are equal, has come far enough already.

Next one, gender equality has already been mostly achieved,

and again, that's about 49%.

And work to achieve gender equality today benefits mostly well to do people.

That was 59%.

Um, there should be laws that require equal salaries for men

and women in the same position.

That's big.

That's 80%.

And, um, although there's been significant progress on gender equality,

there's still a long way to go.

And that's 70 odd percent.

Okay, let's deal with, there should be laws that require equal salaries for

men and women in the same position.

Well, it would be for jobs where there's a minimum wage.

But there's a lot of jobs that aren't, hey?

Like Hmm.

Um, but if you can prove that So it's very difficult where, uh,

you negotiate your own salary.

Hmm.

But certainly if you are on a You could make the case that if you were getting

paid less than a male counterpart, that it was due to, uh, discrimination.

Hmm.

And I'm fairly sure that a employment tribunal would find that persuasive.

Unless there was a good argument in terms of, you know, um,

experience or something like that.

But the problem with any of these where you negotiate your salary is, you

know, you could be getting paid 10%, 20 percent less than any of your colleagues,

whether they're male or female.

Yes.

So I've never been in a large organisation, um, except when

I read my articles, really.

But people don't tend to share their salary with each other, their knowledge.

Is that right?

It seems to be not the done thing, but probably people should.

Yeah, I mean, uh, I was reading legally in the States, you're not

allowed to ban your employees from talking about how much they earn.

Yep.

However, most states are at will states, so they can fire

you and just make up an excuse.

Yep.

That's anything other than you were discussing your salary.

That's in the US.

Yes.

Yeah.

Over here I've not seen anything and I'm, I've not read anything in my

contract that says I'm not allowed to.

But it's certainly not done.

Yes.

I've, I've had conversations mostly with people who've left.

Yep.

As to how much they were earning.

Yes, that seems to be the way, when people are leaving, they tend to reveal.

Mm hmm.

Particularly if they feel that maybe a colleague was, who

they like was being underpaid.

And they might say, hey, by the way, I was getting X amount,

you might want to ask for more.

Ask for that.

But it's probably something where people should seriously think about, talking to

their colleagues and swapping information.

What have you got to lose, other than the embarrassment that maybe you

are paid less and you'll soon know and you can do something about it.

Like, I would have thought it makes sense that people should proactively

in a workplace, um, interrogate their colleagues and say, look, I'll show you

mine if you show me yours, type of thing.

Yeah.

Have you ever done it?

Me?

Yeah.

Negotiated my pay.

Well, have you, have you been?

No, only as a collective.

I've been as part of enterprise bargaining agreements.

So I already know who's getting what and we're all getting the same.

In the chat room, have you ever?

You know, proactively talk to colleagues to check what everyone's getting paid

and swapped information so that you make sure you're getting what you deserve.

So, I think it'd be a good, I think it's something people

should be encouraged to do.

Yeah, so.

Um, Bronwyn put up a st uh, let me just show you that one.

I'll get rid of that screen, put that back up.

Um, another depressing statistic for you, which was released today.

Apparently one in five Australians believe that women who accuse men of

sexual and physical abuse are lying.

Hmm, one in five who accuse men of sexual physi Yeah, do you know what?

My problem is, Bronwyn, I worked a little bit in family law and I saw

abuse allegations used as a weapon in family law I was really suspicious

that that was just being put on.

I've heard of that just amongst friends as well.

Yeah, I mean, if it was, um, outside of a divorce proceeding.

Hmm.

I wouldn't be suspicious.

But certainly in a family court proceeding, yeah.

Uh, I, I have heard that some lawyers are saying, oh yeah, make an allegation,

it makes it easier, um, just to push harder around access for the kids.

Yeah, and just And, and I can believe that there are unscrupulous, unscrupulous

lawyers who would advise their clients.

Mm, yep, or hint at it, but I think they're So why do you

think they're making them up?

What's the basis of that?

Oh, in the family court system is as a leverage to say, well, you shouldn't get

custody because you're a Uh, oh, I, well, um, that's more sort of, um, you're an

improper person to be a, um, a custody of the child, so, and, and the mother can't.

Yeah, I see.

The, and the mother can't.

I see, I see why someone might make an allegation, but I just don't

understand how we can presume or like what did you see that made you

think this person was making it up?

This would be in cases where, where they're family friends,

and so we know the guy in the.

Uh, Trevor, and uh, Landon Hardbottom.

That's all.

See you next time.

Yep.

Husband who was supposed to be a really good bloke and then set them all on fire.

Yeah.

You know, like we've seen this repetitive story of like, bloke wouldn't do that.

Yeah.

Actually did.

Yeah.

But then, you know, like in one case, for example, the female was a drug

addict who had gone out, who was, had moved out and was living with a bikey.

And the bikey was Throwing the stepkids into the swimming pool who couldn't

swim, like crazy stuff, like it was a really, truly dysfunctional stuff,

and she was making these allegations.

There was, there was one where we'd known the guy a long time.

You know, you're right, it might not, it could have been true, but it's certainly

the case where you've got vicious people who are seeking any leverage.

It's an opportunity.

So, and when you balance that like on sort of probability, so you have one, one

anecdote there, did you see that a lot?

That type of thing a lot?

Would you say?

Look, I wasn't one case enough to support that.

Off the top of my head, I couldn't say whether it's two or three personal cases

and maybe two or three professional cases.

Certainly the professional ones, who's to know?

Because I don't know the guy, it's just a client who's come in

and I haven't really known him.

But, um, it's an easy allegation to make, yeah.

Um, uh.

Is it?

Yeah, and, and Brodman says, Trevor, I've also heard stories of women who

are trying to protect their kids from abusive exes and the family court still

forces their kids to see their fathers.

Um, and that's true too, Brodman.

That is true.

Uh, and I've heard of cases where the fathers, for example, are abusive and

the women have to still give the father access and hand their kid over because

if they don't, they might end up losing custody and the father will get custody.

So they have to comply with the access orders, even though they're

deeply suspicious, oh wait, not more than suspicious, they know

that the father is a bad egg, so it does happen the other way as well.

That's true.

Um, so anyway, the original statistic was, um, was Brodmann's about a

fifth don't believe it, and in an ordinary case that seems high.

Just if they're a family court matter, I tend to just, just know

that they get bitter, these things.

Like, I'll tell you one story about how bitter these things are.

And if they aren't?

And then if they aren't?

If they aren't what?

Are you, um, likely to believe them?

If they're, I wouldn't even know.

Family court law matter and she's raising the allegation say, like, let's take the

example of we've had three Uh, sexual assault cases against footballers in a

matter of years, like, they're, certainly the media retellings of them is they're

particularly bad, they sound really, really awful, and um, We have these,

like, all these Facebook comments saying this girl's just looking for some money.

You don't get money from footballers by making rape allegations.

It seems really obvious to me from where I'm standing is that certainly

the NRL has a big culture problem that they are not dealing with

and actually shielding men from.

And yet, when these women raise their concerns, even though it seems like

They're not gonna get any justice.

They still do.

It doesn't seem to be anything to be gained.

And yet people still say, I don't believe it.

So there is an implicit bias, there is a cultural problem in Australia.

Yeah.

There would be.

Yep.

Mm, yep.

Um, and so, yeah, I guess it definitely, it definitely happens.

Hear, hear an allegation.

It, it definitely happens.

The question is how much, like, is it say minuscule or is it not?

I don't know.

The false allegations are supposed to be about 5 percent

depending on who you're asking.

Right.

I think more worrying is the, uh, I was reading an article today, I

think in Independent Australia, uh, talking about the presumption of

innocence being, uh, argued against.

Um, and saying that, no, that isn't right.

We need to have a presumption of innocence.

Um, certainly the Title IX cases in America, where merely the allegation

will get you thrown off campus.

And there is no presumption of innocence, there is no, uh, beyond reasonable doubt.

And, yeah, there was, there was a horrible story of, um, the guy who woke up, In

bed with a young woman and realised that she had made claims against a

number of his, um, former classmates.

And he rushed down to make the allegation on her before she

made the allegation on him.

Mm, yeah.

Because, because they both fell into bed drunk.

Yep.

And he said, you know, it was pre emptive.

If I hadn't done it to her, she'd have done it to me.

We were both unable to consent.

We were both that drunk.

Yeah, and, yeah, that would happen in family court stuff as well, where

there'd be a, you accuse me of this, well, I'll accuse you of the same thing

as well, you know, and, um, in order to get domestic violence orders and things,

so, um, I mean, things get bitter.

I'll tell you this story where this, uh, friend of mine was doing family

law, and he, was negotiating on behalf of the husband and he said to the

husband, look, we're really close here.

You could have just agreed to, um, what they've offered here, or, you know, you

can spend 5, 000 with me arguing about it, you know, over essentially 5, 000.

I mean, do you want to give me the 5, 000 or do you want to

give your, your ex the 5, 000?

You know, do you want to pay 5, 000 in legal fees or just Give

up and give her the 5, 000.

And the guy pulled out his checkbook and wrote a check for 5, 000 for the

lawyer and handed it over to him.

Without any further word.

It's pretty nasty out there.

So, um, yeah.

Yeah, well I've been puzzling about this Believe thing because, um, around

the time of our Um, last podcast together, I'd been suffering from

abdominal pain for about 24 hours.

And I'd been to the doctor the day before, or the day of the podcast.

And the doctor said to me, she asked me about the level of pain.

And I said, six out of 10.

Um, she was like, ah, stop eating airplane food.

It could be a bowels, could be your ovaries.

Go home, put a heat pack on it.

See ya.

Didn't examine me.

Didn't, didn't do a urine test, basically just asked me if I was, if

I was pregnant and that was it, right?

So Wednesday, I'm basically, unless I'm in the fetal position, I'm in pain.

So I present to emergency.

And I appreciate the context of if a woman presents to emergency

and abdominal pain, maybe, maybe people will take it more seriously.

But I had the real experience of being believed by the second doctor.

It was totally different, the way she responded, and it just got me thinking

about when we say being believed, we don't actually want men hung up by their ankles.

We're saying, when you take us at our word, you respond accordingly.

You examine me, you find out where the pain is, you investigate it.

Could it be this?

Let's do an ultrasound, that type of thing.

Let's get to the bottom of it, not just You've been eating too much plain food.

Go home.

Was the first doctor a male or a female?

The first doctor was a female.

Right.

The second doctor was a female.

Right.

So there was an agenda bias.

Right.

But there was an extension in their response.

Well, possibly.

I think it was more about me being overweight.

I thought there might have been some bias there.

About maybe I just experience abdominal pain because I'm overweight.

I'm not sure.

So, are you thinking there was anything in terms of gender

in relation to this incident?

Well, I was really curious, having had this experience, so I jumped on

the QUT library search, and there is just so much of this stuff.

Right.

Like, women present with something, they're not taken seriously, it turns

out to be serious, sometimes they die.

Right.

And that happens more than with men.

Yes.

Right.

Yep.

Right.

Well.

Tell me, Trevor, have you ever presented to the doctor with

abdominal pain and they told you to put a heat pack on your testicles?

No.

And waited out?

No?

What about you, Joe?

Well, I was going to say my Crohn's was misdiagnosed for two years.

Okay.

My GP believed me, but the specialist didn't.

Mm.

Okay.

Mm.

And, and when, when I went off and got a second opinion and came

back and said, yeah, the second opinion is I've got cancer.

Right.

Uh, the specialist said, um, why did you get a second opinion?

Mm.

Yep.

You're gonna have to hide those.

Um, we've got a troll on the chat.

Yeah.

Sorry.

I'm just in the process of doing that.

Yeah.

, tell, finish your story if you like Jay, and we'll, um, yeah.

Yep.

Or we'll hide the chat, maybe.

How do we do that until you've got it fixed?

Uh, captions, uh Maybe I've got it.

You've got it?

Well, I thought I had it.

Okay.

I'll leave it with you.

Um, but yeah, you were misdiagnosed.

Um, I don't know.

Shah, you're telling that story and I don't know Okay.

So, when you went online, there's just a massive amount of cases, comparatively,

of women being Not believe abdominal pain, rather than men, it seems.

Yep.

Yep.

Okay.

Especially, um, heart attacks in women.

Right.

Because they show up differently from men.

I believe shoulder pain is the classic symptom for heart attacks in women.

Right.

They get less.

Yeah.

It's not picked up as quickly.

Mm hmm.

So just back to this, um, Uh, the screen, I'll share it

again, just the central poll.

Um, Work to achieve gender equality today benefits mostly well to do people.

Well, the not well to do, meaning the lower working classes, who might be

on some sort of minimum wage or award wage, I would have thought, where it

doesn't matter whether you're male or female, surely you are paid the same in

those industries, I would have thought.

So, it probably is in the industries where there is no minimum wage, where

it is a flexible by negotiation type thing, where there is a disparity, still.

And so that probably is where the work that's done today

benefits mostly the well to do.

Because I would have thought legislatively, the less well

to do are already covered.

Maybe I'm wrong, but, um, that's how I read that, um.

All right, so, uh, do do do do do, there is a law, I can't, um, but

basically there's a federal legislation, Workplace Relations Act 1996, Sex

Discrimination Act 1984, um, says that you must get equal pay for equal work.

Yeah.

Yep.

So, say in a law firm, for example, you might have two

lawyers, one male, one female.

One male being paid 10 grand more than the female, there'd be arguments over

what type of work you were doing and other things, but Yeah, I guess if the

female has more experience and is clearly doing more difficult work and is being

paid less, she would have some claim of some sort, but yeah, it's a common

story, and I guess if I was part of a large organization, I would be Asking my

colleagues, um, around the lunch table and saying, Hey guys, let's all just

reveal our wages and make sure we're getting what we think we should get.

So, I'm keen to know in the chat room, has anybody done that?

And are you motivated to give it a go as a result of this?

So, um, good.

I did see an interesting argument that said, when we compare men and women,

it always seems to be around salary.

Um, um, women are more likely to have flexible working agreements

or flexible working arrangements generally around the kids.

Um, but whether we should value flexible working arrangements more

than salary, you know, we're, we're, we're placing a male lens on this.

The definition of success is pay.

Uh, maybe, maybe we need to shift the The discussion and say, actually, why aren't

we saying we should have, yeah, rather than working a 60 hour week, we should

be advocating for a fixed 35 hour week.

Mm.

Mm.

Yep.

Yep.

I mean, the argument is, I guess, women would say, oh, we have to,

we leave the workforce for extended periods of time to have babies.

That interrupts with our career.

So our career development is hampered.

And so we reach 35 or 40 and our male colleague who hasn't been

interrupted has progressed through management or higher levels because

of that lack of interruption.

And the counter argument to that is, yeah, well, you've got to stay at home and enjoy

time with your kid and, um, and quality of life style component to all that.

Is that what you're saying, Joe?

Is that where you're heading?

Um, yeah, effectively.

I mean, for the people who choose to do that, I certainly

think there's a value to that.

Mm.

Um, having, yeah, having been a father, been a, uh, Part of that, I used to

look after my daughter on weekends.

Um, it wasn't something that I would choose to be doing, but I know equally

that there are people who would love to be a stay at home dad, and would

consider that, um, uh, A benefit.

Yeah, better than earning a huge amount of money.

Yeah, so, um, So it's tricky and good comments in the chat room.

Can't get to all of them at this stage.

Um, but thank you for those comments and yeah.

Alright, I think that was all.

In terms of gender equality, do you have anything else to add in terms

of International Women's Day at all?

I just wanted to add the victory that I found, which I'm going to read out

because, uh, otherwise I'll put words in that aren't supposed to be there.

Um, so it's a current victory for women, so, um, it's this

thing called the Stellar Count.

It surveys 12 publications, national, regional, newspapers, journals, magazines.

And assesses the extent of gender bias in the field of book reviewing in Australia.

And the good news is, for the first time since the count started in 2012,

women authors have received over half of the reviews of the publishers counted.

55 percent reached in 2020.

Though they're not sure exactly why this is happening, uh, it's estimated that

65 percent of authors are women and 61 percent of women are frequent readers.

The Stellar count brought statistic visibility to gender bias in expert

commentary on authors and Because of that visibility, we're starting to see a shift.

So, soon women will be experts in literary commentary.

Okay, so the authors of the reviews were more than 50 percent women.

Is that what it was, rather than the reviews were of female authors?

are 65%.

Right.

The 61 percent of women are frequent readers, so both the audience and the

authorship is predominantly female and now it's starting to show up in that

their books are being reviewed and there's real value in having your book reviewed

because then people bring those reviews into bookshops and say, have you got this

or, you know, it generates conversation and then they sell more books.

Yep.

Yep.

Just a final point on this.

I forgot to mention.

Um, final point, um, I forgot to mention was, but actually going

back to that one before I forget.

Would it be true that a lot of, okay, guilty of gender

stereotyping here, for example.

I think we should.

Okay.

That's what's cool about this podcast is we can actually discuss it.

Okay.

In my house, for example, you know what I'm reading here, like it's

obvious from, it's all to do with the podcast, there's no fiction.

My wife is reading fiction, uh, a lot, and on her Kindle, so,

um, in the same way that women seem to like True crime podcasts.

They also like novels and Yes, they will talk amongst themselves as to the

novels They're reading and share and what they're about and swap authors

and it's quite a social thing You know, you often hear of women's book clubs.

You very rarely hear of men's book clubs So, it might be just a gender thing that

women are into a type of literature, fiction, that is particularly handy to

have reviews from a female point of view as to whether the fiction is good or not.

I don't know.

It could be to do with the subject matter as much as anything.

Yeah, I'm guessing.

Hmm.

I haven't considered that.

For those who've read Mills and Boone.

Or aware of Mills and Boone?

Yes.

Uh, they, they're romantic fiction.

Mm.

Um, otherwise known as mummy porn.

Yeah.

Barbara Cartland.

Yes.

I, I'm, I'm guessing the majority of the readers are not male.

No.

Whereas I'm going to say war, uh, biographies.

Yep.

Are more likely to be male readers.

Correct.

But, you know, there's obviously very You don't know if that's correct, Trevor.

You don't know the stats.

No, but, I think, correct in that, I agree with your assumptions.

Those assumptions sound correct to me.

I don't know how you'd be able to pull those demographics.

Hmm.

I'm sure Amazon's got plenty of I'm sure Amazon's got plenty of

I'm sure they'd be able to, yeah.

Um, yeah.

Now, the other thing I wanted to mention, just, um, on International

Women's Day stuff, and whether there's equality We talked about this, um, a

few months ago, maybe a year ago, I've lost track, but at least in Queensland,

if you look at our major institutions, our parliament, our police force, our

judiciary, all headed up by women.

Um, so, there's a lot of, the Chief Justice, the Premier, the Police

Commissioner, the High Court Chief Justice, there's a lot of sort of

powerful, Governor General, yes, a lot of powerful positions actually.

Held by women, so that is something to bear in mind when looking at

the whole equality issue and trying to figure out how far we've come.

Yeah, and we've had some great women in the public eye in the past year.

I mean, Ash Barty, like such a show of good sportsmanship, you

know, like that's what she is.

And it's really beautiful to see, you know, that expression of leadership in

a different way, especially in tennis.

Yeah, and previous Chief Health Officer as well was, um, yeah, so.

Previous Chief Health Officer is now our Governor.

Yes.

So, um, so just bear that in mind when we're thinking of equality issues.

And, um, okay, just, um, what else have I got here?

Next topic.

Um, oh, just while we're on, while we're just on essential poll, um.

Um, might as well throw this one up as well.

I'm going to talk more about Ukraine if we have time, but just

a quick diversion to Ukraine.

Which political party do you think is better equipped to understand

and react to the current conflict between Russia and the Ukraine?

Um, Australians were asked.

24 percent said Liberal, 24 percent said Labor, 33 percent said no

difference, and 19 percent don't know.

That's a reassuring statistic, at least there was no major leaning towards the

Coalition being the better government in dealing with the Ukraine crisis

from an Australian point of view.

So, that was, that was heartening, at least, so.

Well, we didn't have Tony Abbott threatening to shirt front Putin.

No, but, um, Morrison would if given half a chance, um, um.

Do you think he would?

He seems so gutless, he can't even, you know, hold his ground with

the premiers, let alone Jesus.

Yeah, he would talk about it, so, um, but, you know, I was talking to my, one

of my neighbours, who's a very smart guy, a very, um, you know, sort of a medical

specialist type, and we briefly diverted onto Ukraine, and he said something like,

You know, I think Morrison was right when he spoke about a breakdown of the rules

based international order, and, uh, it was sort of a bit glowing about Morrison

in relation to, um, about this issue.

So, I'm still a bit worried about what some people might be falling for it.

So, anyway, we'll see.

Yes.

Um.

It is the worry.

Um, okay.

Um.

So, Joe, you're in the Peter Dutton electorate.

Unfortunately, yes.

So you would have a keen interest in any news items that

might refer to Peter Dutton.

I might well be.

Yes, and did you see, well I know you did, the Friendly Geordies, dear listener, put

out quite a long segment for them, like a 20 minute odd YouTube expose of Just

some people associated with Peter Dutton.

Now we've got to be careful here with our language, um, because we don't want to be

the subject of a defamation proceeding.

But anyway, raised a number of allegations about contracts and people

who were associated with Peter Dutton.

And he clearly had got a lot of information from people on

the inside, sharing emails.

There were screenshots of confidential messages and documents and

clearly somebody has ratted out.

That's a draft.

Yes.

People with white substances on, on smooth counters lined up with powder and

stuff that looked awfully suspicious.

So It was quite an in depth exposé and raised a lot of issues and,

and have you seen anything in the mainstream media about it at all?

And the answer would be no, nothing.

Um, there was For someone who is quite possibly the next leader of the Liberals

There's a suspicious amount of silence.

Even if they're completely unfounded allegations, you'd

expect to hear something.

Exactly.

You would, wouldn't you?

He was interviewed on Radio National this morning.

Not a peep out of her.

Yep.

She didn't put a thing to him.

And he was on Insiders on Sunday.

This all came out on, like, Friday, and he was already booked for Insiders.

Not a single question on it.

What's going on?

Well, you wonder, is this the same as Barnaby Joyce and his affair?

Which apparently was an open secret in Canberra.

All the press knew about it, but they all decided it wasn't in the

public interest that a Family Values man was banging his secretary.

And you know what?

I can get that to some extent.

But this is to do with government contracts.

Um, so it's more than just his integrity as a, you know, a father or a personal

thing like the Barnaby Joyce one was, it's about government money and, um, and it

obviously warrants questions even to say.

Well, you've seen this allegation from Friendly Geordie's that blah, blah,

blah, what have you got to say about it?

Nothing.

So, um, it's a really, dear listener, go and just Google,

just go onto the YouTube and the Friendly Geordie's YouTube channel.

It's still up, um, it was, you know, quite recently.

It might be taken down at some stage, but the interesting thing is that, you know,

he hasn't demanded That they take it down for, um, with a threat of defamation.

And he might have been taking due note of some other defamation cases.

That's right!

Like that!

Strikes in defence?

Ben Roberts Smith is the plaintiff!

Yes!

Oh my god!

You have to keep reminding yourself that he is the plaintiff.

He brought that action on.

And just a conga line of former colleagues coming out, coming

out saying terrible things.

And the same with, of course, um, what is it, Christian Porter?

Oh yes.

So, you know, maybe that is not so stupid.

He won that one.

And he had to pay costs, of course, but you know, you

always pay costs when you win.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

Humiliating back down, I think was the phrase.

But, you know, full credit to Friendly Geordies.

Like, you're watching it and you're going, you guys have got balls to run this.

Definitely.

Fearless, ballsy move.

Um, you have to sort of tip your hat to them, and maybe even go onto their

Patreon account and throw them a few dollars, because that's the sort of

stuff that, you know, he almost single handedly got rid of Berejiklian, and

And the deputy, um, Barilaro, in New South Wales, like, you know, he caused

an enormous ruckus down there with what was going on, um, And just, you know,

just a YouTuber, um, is doing more than mainstream media to dig up this stuff.

So, um, some of the comments I saw on Twitter, Well, a satirical comedian

on YouTube is one of the most fearless investigative journalists in the country.

Who holds those in power to account, you know we have a real

problem with the mainstream media.

And another one which was, um, this is where we have got to in Australia

when a part time comedian can expose major government corruption.

Um, where the fuck are the investigative journalists in this country?

So It reminds me of the Moonlight State, have you seen it?

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it is a bit like that.

Yeah, you're going, so where's the ABC Four Corners report

at digging all this up?

Yes.

And even if they didn't know about it, because obviously

he's been given documents.

So somebody has perhaps used him as the first port of call, but that,

I think outlets should be following up and asking at least the question

of Dutton to say, well, there's this allegation, what have you got to say?

Um, the fact that the insiders.

They must do a deal with him.

He must say, I'm coming on your program, but I'm only, I'm not going

to answer these questions, or I'm only going to handle these questions.

Don't have him on.

Don't let him on.

If, if you can't ask whatever questions you want to ask, tell him to piss off.

He's the one who's trying to, you know, get re elected.

Yes, and, you know, try and potentially become the next Prime Minister.

Well, he can face the hard questions.

That's a, the thing about the ABC, they get such a hard time from this mob.

Um, they don't use the power when they've actually got it.

He's wanting publicity at the moment, like he's, he's talking about the

ADF with the floods and he's talking about China and talking about

there's all the chance he can get.

He wants oxygen and don't let him have it if he's not prepared

to answer any questions.

So, um, there we go.

Um, um, so there was one article in, um.

Uh, Victoria Fielding in Independent Australia, she said, um, Not only does

Dutton hold the powerful position of Minister for Defence, but he is also a

contender for leader in the Liberal Party, should Morrison choose to step down.

This scandal, therefore, has all the ingredients you would think

the mainstream media would need.

To make it top priority for journalists to follow up.

Um, Senior Minister, check, high profile candidate, stood

down, seemingly for no reason.

Um, Allegations of government contracts being used to enrich Liberal Party donors.

Um, Has all these features, and, so it's quite explosive.

And while the Sydney Morning Herald and the Courier Mail reported

Ryan Shaw's decision to step down from his Lilly candidacy.

Uh, there hasn't been any follow ups since Friendly Geordie's

video went live on Friday.

So, no media outlets, um, have mentioned the allegations made in the video.

So, despite these allegations being evidenced with a series of damning,

leaked photos and emails, it's true, there is supporting documentation

that looks pretty legit, it's, it's not just friendly Geordies making

shit up with no evidence, um, that's where we've got to, so, um, Clive

Palmer, uh, headline from the Chaser.

Saying um, how do we compete with this?

And the headline was Anti vax Aussie billionaire battling

COVID buys Hitler's car.

It wasn't the car's fault that he was owned by Hitler.

Yeah.

He didn't end up buying it.

Clearly he was trying to.

Who falls for this guy?

Who are these numbskulls who could possibly fall for Clive Palmer's shtick?

Who possibly would fall for anything he says?

Um Well, the amount of money he's throwing at advertising.

Yeah.

Did you see the advert?

Somebody had rearranged the, um, the letters on a UAP advert?

I've seen a bit of that.

Oh, there was one here that, uh, they changed the ad to say, um You

can totally trust the bloke who just bought Hitler's car to look after

your interests, was that the one?

Uh, and the, well, they changed the United Australia Party to I'm just trying to

remember what it was, but it was, here we go, Free Us From United LNP Failure Party.

Right, yep, same.

Anyway, life Palmer.

Actually, I was having an interesting conversation on the weekend with my

brother, and he just thinks throwing, the throwing of lawsuits and all this stuff

is really just undermined democracy.

So, it doesn't matter whether people take him seriously or not.

No.

But, but, the fact that he managed to get Which is interesting.

The fact that he managed to get, what, three or four percent or something

in the last election, he felt, or he claimed that that enabled him to Stop a

Labor government and maybe he's right.

I don't know, but the fact that he could rustle up a hundred people

who would vote for him Who would think that he had in any way could

possibly represent their interests?

I just don't know how anyone could think that way.

So You see him claiming that they'd already had Three or four prime ministers.

Yes, because the former name of the Liberal Party was Something

like The United Australia Party?

Yes.

Well, there was a United Australia Party that had had

three or four Prime Ministers.

Yeah.

And he changed the name of his party to be the United Australia Party.

Yes.

Therefore, they were his Prime Ministers.

Such a shameless bullshitter.

Such a shameless bullshitter.

But didn't he come out and say the Hitler car thing is misinformation?

Well he said, he said, I never bought Hitler's car.

But the point was You tried to buy it.

What, are you prepared to say you never tried to buy it?

You never investigated buying it?

But he says, I never bought it.

Okay.

So, yep.

Um.

I see that they've had a big falling out with the anti vaxxer party.

Really?

They're both?

Yeah.

Kidding.

Why's that?

I'm not over.

Uh, apparently they were only in it for themselves, to push

their own political agenda.

Oh, that's what the anti vaxxers No, no, no, this is what Clive

was saying about the anti Oh!

Yeah, apparently there was some sort of alliance between the

UAP and some anti vaxx party.

Right.

And they have had an acrimonious breaking up.

Oh dear.

Oh dear.

Alright, um, you send a link, um, Joe, about Robert Reich?

Rightch?

Rightch?

Yes, Robert Reich.

Yeah, so, um.

He was Secretary for Labor under Bill Clinton.

Hmm.

And Time Magazine named him one of the 10 most effective Cabinet

Secretaries of the 20th century.

So He wrote an article basically saying that only the right has become more

extreme over the last 50 years, and he says, how did we get so divided?

And he said that he started in American politics 50 years ago, and he figured he

was just left of centre at that point.

And 25 years later, he was in Bill Clinton's cabinet, and the left to right

spectrum had stretched much longer.

Um, the biggest change was how much further the right had moved.

Ronald Reagan had opened the political floodgates to corporate and Wall Street

money, bankrolling right wing candidates and messages that decried big government.

I agree with him 100 percent there.

There's a big cultural shift occurred in the world with Ronald Reagan and

Margaret Thatcher at the same time, with this sort of decrying of big government.

He goes on, Bill Clinton sought to lead from the centre, but by then the

centre had moved so far right that Clinton gutted public assistance,

enacted tough on crime policies that unjustly burdened the poor and people of

colour, and he deregulated Wall Street.

All of which put me further to the left of centre, even though my

political views had barely changed.

Today, the spectrum from left to right is the longest it's been in

my 50 years in and around politics.

The left hasn't moved much at all.

We're still against the war machine, still pushing for civil and voting

rights, still fighting the power of big corporations, but the right

has moved far, far rightward.

Donald Trump brought America about as close as we'll ever come,

or we've ever come, to fascism.

He incited an attempted coup against the United States.

He and most of the Republican Party continue to deny that

he lost the 2020 election.

They're getting ready to suppress votes and disregard election

outcomes they disagree with.

So don't believe the fear mongering that today's left is radical.

What's really radical is the right's move towards fascism.

So that rings a bell with you, Joe?

Yeah, I have seen articles that have argued that Barry Goldwater,

who was basically the father of the House for the Republicans,

would now be considered Democratic.

Because the right, yeah, the right wing of the party has moved so far right.

That, you know, what was, what was a right wing view 30 years ago, 40 years

ago when he was father of the house, um, is now considered a left wing.

Yep.

It's, yeah.

And it's not that much different here.

Morrison came out and said, oh, an Albanese government, they're

the most left wing, um, potential government we've seen since Whitlam.

What?

Honestly, look at the policies.

There's not a piece of paper between them.

Almost, it seems.

I can't They haven't promised anything.

Let alone anything left wing.

Like, they're just agreeing on everything.

It's hard to You know, it's only through faith and just the The name

Labor Party that you have a suspicion that perhaps they might favour the

left in some views if they actually get elected, but just based on their

promises, there's not a lot to go with.

And you know, Morrison's claiming that, you know, they're socialists

and they're the most left wing Labor Party since Whitlam.

What a joke!

It's just, they're incredibly right wing, they haven't

targeted taxation of the rich.

Redistribution in any way.

So, um, anyway, or even re nationalisation of formerly, um, state owned assets.

Yeah, nothing of a classic Labor sort of bent, uh, left bent at all

in this current Albanese model.

They're incredibly right wing.

So, um.

Maybe the social housing has any promise in housing?

I don't know, I haven't heard of any particular promise, so I don't know,

um, so yeah, so yeah, I agree with Robert Wright that, uh, the right has

moved right and I would argue the left has moved to the right, um, and, yeah.

So he's done a couple of documentaries, one of which is up on Netflix.

Right, and good.

Yeah, yeah, um, interesting discussion, um, uh, basically, uh, talking socialism

as in social democracy, uh, and talking to some, um, entrepreneur who

said, yeah, um, so I own ten times as much as, oh yeah, an average worker.

But I'm not spending 10 times as much, you know, that, that money going to the

workers would go back into the economy, coming to me, it is adding zero value to

the economy and was basically arguing for higher taxation on the rich and feeding

it back into the economy via putting it in the pockets of people less well off

because they don't save it, they spend it.

Mm.

Yep.

Okay, um, I haven't in a long time thanked the Patrons, and I had

a couple new ones lately, so I'm gonna run through the Patrons.

Dear listener, if you'd like to become a Patron, go on to ironfistvelvetglove.

com.

au And all of our old episodes are there, and there's also a link

to donate, so you can do that.

There's also a Speakpipe link, if you want to leave an audio

message, you can do that as well.

And starting from the most recent, Mark Clavell, Cy Gladman, Tom Stubbings, Rico,

Greg P, Shannon Legg, Liam Healy, Don Tovey, Daniel Flanagan, Matt Dwyer, Sue

Cripp, James Leigh, Yarn, Leanne James Lean, um, is that in the chat room?

James, you're right there.

Is it Lean, El or Leoni or Lean?

Um, Branwin.

Wayne, David Hamby, Virgil Craig, ball Shane Ingram Ya.

Blue Zabar.

David Copeley.

Graham Hagan yet another Pinker fan.

Uh, John in Dire Straits, Donnie Darko, Camille, Tom Doolin, um, Paul Waper,

Alexander Allen, Matthew, Craig S, Glenn Bell, Professor Doctor Dentist, Adam

Priest, Murray Waper, Andy Dowling, Captain Doomsday, Peter Gillespie,

Gavin S, Daniel Curtin, Liam McMahon, Happy Birthday Liam for the other day,

Dominic Damasi, Matic Man, Pallet, Bronwyn, of course, who's in the chat

room, Kane, Tony Wall, um, sorry I didn't get down there to Sydney, Tony,

uh, two weeks time I'll be down there, boy I'm glad I didn't go looking at

that rain today, Steve Shinners, Alison, Ayame, Waino, Craig Glasby and Janelle.

And, people who don't like to use Patreon, but who give donations

through PayPal, would be Mr.

Anderson, Matt Mann, Mr.

T, Paul Evans, Wayne Seaman, Obrad, Puskarica, Darren Giddens, Greg

Clark, Dave S from Cairns, um, Noel Hamilton's come on board recently,

Savvas Louise, good on you, thank you very much, if you would like to donate.

Yeah, go to the website and you'll see the links and it's much appreciated

because there are quite a few expenses with hosting of all of this stuff,

the restream that we're using for the chat, and the different subscriptions.

Roughly adds up to about 80 per episode, so.

If I don't do an episode every week, I start to lose money.

That's how tight it is.

All right.

Um, Where are we up to?

8.

37.

Let's talk.

Remember I asked last week, I said, if you want to argue with me about something,

then get on and ring us up and argue with me, and nobody did at the time.

Nobody really did except Um, your friend Joe called in and Dom, and he, he didn't

want to argue, he just wanted to agree.

And, uh, anyway, on Twitter, um, so I was spending more time on Twitter, I

haven't actually been posting anything, I've just sort of been watching stuff.

So it's at IFVG underscore podcast, if you'd like to follow and

eventually we'll start posting things.

But, got some feedback from At Skeptical Aussie, um, who is the inventor of

the Bullshit Detector, according to their Twitter profile here, and,

um, She writes, I've been listening to your podcast where you asked a

caller if he disagreed with anything.

One thing I disagree with is, I think your discussion on China is too polarised.

John, question mark, was too hard on them.

I think she is, um, referring to Paul from the old days there.

Yep.

And Trevor is too naïve.

Ouch!

Ouch!

So we'll say Paul was too hard on them and Trevor is too naïve.

Hmm.

It is also not true to say that the relationship This is China and Australia.

Took a dive because of Morrison's comments about SARS CoV 2.

China became quite authoritarian towards us when Gillard cooperated

with the US over their presence here.

Later, Turnbull took a hard line against China over Huawei,

and they were quite angry.

There is quite a bit of evidence of Chinese interference

in Australian politics.

And evidence of intimidation in Australia in places such as universities.

So we can trade, but let's not be naive, eh?

So, um, maybe I shouldn't ask for feedback, because I got really

annoyed by this one, I have to say.

Skeptical Aussie.

Really?

Yeah.

Inventor of the bullshit detector.

Like, if you just said I disagree and, and then made your

argument, I could handle that.

But calling me naïve, ouch.

So, look, of course I'm on the record on this podcast talking about China

a lot, but I think what you find is, what I'm saying is, I'm showing

the other side's point of view.

I'm saying you have to look at this from the Chinese point of view.

Now that doesn't mean I think that China is a bastion of freedom and goodness, it's

just that you've got to look at it from their point of view and when assessing

their actions, um, put yourself in their shoes and ask whether what they're doing

is, is expected for a major power in their position, from their point of view.

That's what you've got to look at.

And compare it for consistency with other major powers.

And if you give a green light to the USA to behave in a certain way But

you don't give the same green light to the Chinese to act in the same

way, then you're being hypocritical.

Like, that's essentially what I'm always banging on about, I would

have thought, when it comes to China.

So, I mean, I don't want to live under a Chinese government, but I don't want

to live under a USA government either.

So, um, it's the same when we talk about Russia and Ukraine, which I'll

get to later on and we have done before.

It's like, Russia has a point in all of this.

That doesn't mean they should invade the Ukraine, but they've

got some legitimate points.

Um, China's got points, but they shouldn't invade Taiwan either.

So, um, and China is a superpower.

It'll do what superpowers do.

It'll throw its weight around whenever it perceives it should

in its own self interest.

And China has some legitimate complaints about how Australia has treated it.

And a lot of the time with what China has done, if I was in charge of

China, I'd be doing the same thing.

So, anyway, um, so I've argued that, um, when the Morrison government was

talking about, um, COVID cropping up in China, and the Morrison government

essentially said, we should be sending people into China with weapons inspector

like powers to find out what goes on.

And, um, essentially Maris Payne, um, and Scott Morrison ran that line.

So.

I've said that's important and, uh, Skeptical Aussie, Inventor of the Bullshit

Detector, says, um, It is also not true to say the relationship took a dive because

of Morrison's comments about SARS CoV 2.

Well, um, Nikki Sava, political journalist, like, she's written books.

She wrote the biography of Morrison.

She seems to me to be a smart operator, um, I would have thought

she knows what she's talking about.

She wrote, The tipping point is acknowledged by many experts to

be the day in April when Foreign Minister Maris Payne, without warning

or the cover of supportive allies, Announced Australia would take the

lead in pushing for an international inquiry into the origins of COVID 19.

It was popular domestically.

People whose lives and jobs had been disrupted were rightly furious with China.

A few old China watchers vented at the time, believing there was too

much politics and too little strategic thinking behind the government's push.

They saw it as the latest in a series of actions, some warranted,

others gratuitous, that would certainly invite retaliation.

So, that was Nikki Savva, I think I mentioned that in episode 282,

and um, there's a timeline here.

Huawei was banned in August 2018.

The weapons inspector comments were made in April 2020.

The tariffs were imposed less than one month later, in May 2020.

So if you wanna, you know, all these things add up in terms of the

relationship, but, Essentially, the tariffs were imposed less than four

weeks after, or about four weeks after, the weapons inspector comment was made.

So, I think you can quite rightly say, um, as Nikki Sarvadis does, that it was, um,

a significant factor and a tipping point.

Okay, just in relation to Gillard, she says here, um, skeptical Aussie, that

China became quite authoritarian towards us when Gillard cooperated with the U.

S.

over their presence here.

I wasn't sort of aware of anything like that, so quick Google search and

one of the first sites I found said, Well done Julia Gillard, you won't hear

these words very often in the run up to this year's Australian elections, but

Julia Gillard deserves credit for her successful visit to China this month.

The signing of a strategic partnership between China and

Australia was the linchpin of Gillard's successful trip to China.

This deal includes provisions for an annual leaders dialogue.

This is welcome news, signalling a bolstered political link in what

is already China's, Australia's largest trade relationship, worth

almost 130 billion annually.

The deal was hailed by politicians and policy commentators on both sides of the

aisle in Australia, winning support from former Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser

and Opposition Leader Tony Abbott.

On military to military dialogue, Gillard hinted that there will also

be policy level dialogue, which will happen between our military.

So this is all about building trust and confidence and transparency

for the future, blah, blah, blah.

So, I hardly think that that adds up to, um, China becoming quite

authoritarian towards us when Gillard cooperated with the U.

S.

over their presence here.

Um, The other part was Turnbull took a hard line against China over Huawei and

they were quite angry and that is true.

And um, as I said, that was the correct decision.

Like Australia had to say to China, um, look, we can't have you controlling

our telecommunications system.

How are we going to keep a secret from you?

But we didn't have to boast about it and to tell other countries to do the same.

We could have politely said, sorry guys, love your stuff, but we just can't do it.

But what did we do?

We said, we can't do it because we don't trust you, and by the way,

we're going to run around the world telling everybody else not to as well.

Like, that's the point about Huawei.

Barely sure it was one of the other five I's that told us not to.

Yeah, you think America told, I think, I thought the rest of the world was a

little bit surprised when we did it.

But, um.

Um, in any event, we did way too much boasting over that, and we should have

just laid low and ducked for cover when dealing with the superpower.

That's what you do when you're a small nothing country.

Um, yeah.

So talking of such things, have you heard about what's going on

with all the Ukrainian programmed, um, devices in Russia now?

Ah, Ukrainian programmed devices in Russia, no?

So they're failing now, are they?

Well apparently, um, electric car charging ports.

Had a backdoor maintenance access, and they now say fuck you Putin or something.

Oh, is that right?

So you go to plug in your car, and of course it's only the rich and

powerful who have electric cars.

Yeah.

So as they go to plug in and charge their car, the little LCD screen, um, comes

up with fuck you Putin on the screen as they plug in their cars to charge it.

But I did see where Mastercard and Visa and PayPal have effectively disconnected

Russia from their systems, and so one, that affects ordinary Russians.

It was Apple Pay and Google Pay and the queues at the metro where people

can't swipe on and swipe off anymore.

Exactly.

I'm going to talk about it later, but it's really important because, you know,

I talked about de dollarisation around the world, and this is just pushing.

Russia and China to move to a system where they're, um, able to

operate separate to the dollar and to American financial institutions.

But we'll get back to that.

Still going on with, uh, this, um, feedback.

Um, so yes, there is Chinese influence in Australian universities.

Don't deny that, but in a whole episode Episode 227 about the Four Corners

report titled Red Flags, and essentially, if you had swallowed the entire Four

Corners report, where they had a conga line of security experts come along, I

sat in front of it and I was watching this and I was going, who are these

people who are these commentators?

Google their names, and nine times out of ten, they work for some arms manufacturer,

or they're some colonists for a right wing think tank, like the Four Corners report

on Red Flags, which was about Chinese involvement in Australian universities,

was just shocker with right wingers.

So, you know, the naïve approach would have been to swallow that, the

um, what's the opposite of naïve?

The sophisticated approach would be to Actually go and look up

every name that appeared in there and investigate who they were.

So, um, So, yeah, um, so I think I spent a lot of time, we've

talked about the history of China.

It's a hundred year embarrassment at being occupied by foreign

powers following the Opium Wars.

And it's resolved to never allow that to happen again.

And it's legitimate concern of being invaded by Western powers.

And the hypocrisy of the West in the double standards it applies.

And Australia's fawning obsequiousness to the USA.

So, I've pretty much, I reckon, parroted the views of former

diplomats in the John Menendew blog.

So the John Menendew blog, go and look at it.

Under the heading of China, and there are so many former diplomats,

people with real world experience, and I don't think I've said anything

that would be in disagreement with what those guys have all said.

Because they're all pretty much unanimous about What a shitty

diplomatic job we've done, now we've caused this problem ourself.

And, you know, if you're going to call me naive, call Paul Keating naive.

Like, he went into the press club and basically said the same

thing, even more forcefully.

Um, sorry Joe, you want to chip in?

I was going to say the Many Do blog recently has been very,

very apologetic for Putin.

Right.

Even putting up after He'd invaded an article saying, Oh no, no,

Putin's never going to invade.

He's, he's just, um, sabre rattling.

He just wants some, um, uh, do you, yeah, some, some justice.

Right, yes, yes.

And I'm thinking it was an incredibly naive view.

Yes.

They seem to be pushing a strangely pro Putin line.

Right, um.

It struck me as very naive.

Yeah, a lot on the left actually, uh, in relation to the build up to the, um, to

the invasion, had been so suspicious of US intelligence, because we've seen it

all before in that it's been bullshit, and that they basically said, There's

no way that Putin's going to invade, because the US intelligence is telling

us that it is, and they're always wrong.

Where really, they should have been more circumspect, and have gone, Well, we can

never trust these guys to get this right.

To the left, it looked like a beat up, and, uh, in the end

they were proved wrong, because Putin, of course, crossed over.

So, uh, a number on the left did jump the gun and were too,

too cavalier in declaring Putin would never do what he did.

Um, based on the fact that they didn't want to agree with U.

S.

intelligence, I think.

So, anyway, just getting back to my present argument with Skeptical Aussie.

So, um, um, so, you know, the points you've raised, I think, are wrong.

Uh, in relation to, what did you raise there?

In relation to, um, um, weapons inspector stuff.

In relation to Gillard.

And, um Huawei was the way that we did it, not the fact that we did it.

Um, I think I'm pretty much in agreement with the John Menendee

blog list of, um, diplomats.

And I've pretty much parroted what they've said, as well as Paul Keating.

So, um, might be wrong, but I hardly think it's naive, so.

I think you need to adjust your bullshit detector, or perhaps

point it at yourself, I think.

So, anyway, that was that one, and then there was another feedback,

which this one was from Paul.

Paul's been on the podcast before, and, um, so, um, So at least Paul

didn't call me naive, and um, Don't you think her, like, I just think

her point was, is that somehow along the lines of you just explaining or

critically analysing the situation, she thinks you're somehow condoning it.

Yeah, that is part of the problem, is that, if just because you're giving

the other But then There's only three podcasters I know, apart from you, who

have been brave enough to try to explain the other perspective, and I think the,

um, clap back or slap back has been, yeah.

Pretty, pretty negative.

Yeah, so I don't want everybody going the same way.

We don't want to be discussing this or Yeah Considering that

it's interesting, isn't it?

Yeah, just because you're giving the other side doesn't mean you agree with it.

You're just saying Yeah.

Um, it's possible for both sides to be wrong.

And, um That's right.

It's, it's contributing factors.

There's context to everything, so it's not just all good guy, bad guy.

I mean, that's the naive view, I would have thought.

That's right!

Uh, okay.

So, Paul said, um, uh, I would have come onto the podcast to challenge your view

of making media partisan, to agree with you on alternative sources of information,

and hopefully to contribute some thoughts.

So, we were talking about looking at different sources of information.

And I was talking about what sources I thought were good, mentioning John

Menjublog and Crikey and a few others.

And I mentioned that, you know, if you can't find a middle ground and you

can only find a right wing version, then look for the left wing version.

Um, um, So I was trying to encourage people to look for the independent.

Media organisations who, and, and people are independent because their income is

not reliant on the answers they give, and that's not many, like newspapers

are going and media, mainstream media has to satisfy either the Advertisers

or the owners or both and therefore these are rich and powerful people

generally so they're not going to advocate policies that are contrary to

the interests of the rich and powerful.

So if somebody is in a position where they can say something and they're not

going to be financially disadvantaged because of it then they're likely to

be honest and Someone like Sam Harris, I was referring to, with his own sort

of Patreon thing, basically had enough happening that he could speak fearlessly.

Mind you, there's also audience capture, where if you find your audience is

largely right wing and they're the big payers, you can be tempted to do more

and more right wing positive commentary, hoping to get a right wing audience

and make more money, a la Dave Rubin.

So There's all these nuanced factors to take into account, so Paul

writes, I would absolutely have come on to the podcast to challenge

your view of making media partisan.

Well, fuck Paul, I didn't suggest making media partisan.

I wrote to Paul because we email and he has lunch and he's one of

our beer sponsors and I like Paul.

I said, sure, but I wasn't saying we should make media

partisan, just that it often is.

It's often lazily repeats the accepted narrative.

If you can find neutral sources, then try and get a bit of both.

If you can't find neutral sources, then try and get a bit of both sides.

And you said, okay, but you seem to me to be suggesting that journalists

actually ignore what the Prime Minister does or says if it doesn't form some

critique of him or if it's not news.

To me, that seems partisan in that it means the journalists already have a

constructive narrative and if the PM doesn't fit into that, they ignore him.

And Paul, what I'm talking about there was when the Prime Minister turns up at

a hairdressing salon and starts washing somebody's hair, you as a journalist

are supposed to make a decision.

That that's not news, and that's not being partisan.

That's just being, I'm not going to be part of your public relations exercise,

so I'm not going to report this.

But when you start talking, then that's news.

So um, um.

Yeah, so we had a bit of to ing and fro ing over email there, so um, so yeah,

in terms of feedback, I was accused of being naive and um, and then Paul

sort of misinterpreted what I said, so I do want feedback, but just keep

it coming, and um, but you don't put words into my mouth, like I wasn't

saying the media should be partisan.

Clearly it is in many respects.

Try and find media that isn't, and from the media's point of view,

don't do a hair washing segment.

It's just not news, and it's not, you're not being partisan by ignoring it.

So, there we go.

Right, um, what have we got in the chat room here?

Um, we're up to, we're up to an hour and a half, and I've got, um,

I've got a huge bit on Ukraine.

Which most people are probably sick of by now, but the true

believers might like to hear.

And I think what I'm going to do is probably finish the podcast now, the

live stream, and say our farewells, and then I think I'm going to record.

Um, an extra hour or so on Ukraine, because I've got lots of clips and

things, um, essentially looking at, um, the whole sort of NATO, um, encroachment

up to Russia, and the number of people, distinguished people, who a long time ago

said, this is going to cause a problem.

And so, I think I need to get all that out of the way and done and dusted,

so I think I'll do that as a added.

I'll tack it on to the end of this podcast.

So if you're watching the live stream, make sure you download the

actual podcast and skip forward an hour and a half and, um You know

what, James says let's hear it.

You know what, James, I might come on live in about 20 minutes and do it.

Once I've, um, I might do that.

I might come on live and just go solo rant on Ukraine to add to it.

I'm not sure.

Keep a look out.

I might be there if you, if you're keen.

So.

But it will go for a while and I'm conscious of Joe and Shea's

time and that it'll just be me ranting in a one way stream.

So, um, so yeah, so let's finish off this podcast and I'll tack it on if

you, if you bail out now, make sure you listen to the, uh, audio version

and, uh, You never know, I might come on in 20 minutes and just do it anyway.

So we'll see.

Alrighty.

Okay.

Thanks Shea.

International Women's Day.

Done and dusted.

Thank you.

Yep.

Thanks Joe.

Yep.

Thanks Joe.

Good night.

All right.

Okay.

We'll talk to you next week.

Bye.

Oh, dear listener, here we go.

This is something unusual.

Episode 330, Part B.

So, if you're out there and you've hung around, let me know.

Joe will probably join in, um, in a moment, so Yeah, so episode 330 did

all the other stuff on International Women's Day and I figured that not

everybody wanted to hang around for the Ukrainian stuff and I put it at the end.

So I'm going to run through now my thoughts on the latest on Ukraine and

the things that I've found as I've been reading and give the update.

So here we go.