Episode Summary: In this enlightening and fun episode, hosts Leekei, Jenn, Olabanji, and Kristina unpack the concept of "Discourses of Climate Delay." This term is based on a research paper published by the University of Cambridge with the same title.

The concept of "Discourses of Climate Delay," is a term that describes the subtle yet impactful ways people acknowledge climate change while advocating for minimal or postponed action. 

Contrary to climate denial, these discourses accept the reality of climate change but argue for less urgent or less comprehensive solutions. 

The discourses are grouped by the researchers in 4 main categories:

Redirect Responsibility: This discourse evades systemic solutions for climate change, often by shifting the focus onto individual actions or by invoking 'whataboutism' to point fingers at other countries or sectors that are perceived to contribute more to the problem.

Push Non-Transformative Solutions: This discourse advocates for incremental or ineffective solutions, such as relying solely on technological advances or market-based incentives, while ignoring the need for more comprehensive, transformative changes.

Emphasize the Downsides: This narrative focuses on the perceived negatives of taking climate action, such as economic costs or threats to existing ways of life, without adequately addressing the potentially greater costs of inaction or the benefits of transformative change.

Surrender: This discourse argues that climate change mitigation is either too challenging to be feasible (change is impossible) or already too late to matter (doomism), promoting a sense of futility and discouraging meaningful action.

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac, visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

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Maui-based Carbon Almanac Contributor Richie Biluan wrote “You are important. Your voice is important. Your aloha is significant. If you are on social media, send someone an encouraging comment who you see is going through this tragedy, or any for that matter. Share critical information with your network. Write. Read. And most importantly - love one another.”

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Jenn Swanson and Kristina Horning

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France. 

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves. 

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria. He’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work

Kristina is working on design theory and using the design process in everything. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Christina.

2

Hi, I'm Jen.

3

Hi, I'm Olabunji.

4

And hi, I'm Leakey.

5

Today, I would like to share a paper

that I found, I came across, on the

6

discourses of climate delay, and it's

a very serious paper that has been

7

researched by the University of Cambridge.

8

So this paper, it's quite interesting

because it kind of analyzes the

9

discourses, and uh, by discourses, I would

put in bracket excuses, of climate delay.

10

What does it mean, um,

discourses of climate delay?

11

It's those people, and when

I mention people, it could be

12

people, organizations, companies,

associations, whatever you want.

13

That's recognize that there is a

problem with climate change, but

14

they don't want to do anything.

15

And all they think that

there's nothing we can do.

16

And it's quite interesting to look

at how these causes are framed.

17

And, you know, I think it's quite

interesting to understand that and,

18

um, to recognize this pattern and,

um, And the sense, what we can.

19

Do to address this kind of discourses.

20

Discourses are organized

and this is something that's

21

Christina call it a wheel.

22

Is it a wheel or a pie?

23

Well, it's a wheel or a pie.

24

So they are classified in four categories.

25

One of the categories is

redirect responsibility.

26

And what, what does it mean?

27

Direct responsibility is those

people who say, okay, there's

28

a problem with climate change.

29

Yeah.

30

But I'm doing enough or I didn't do it.

31

I didn't do it.

32

I didn't.

33

It's not my problem.

34

I didn't create that.

35

And therefore, I don't want to

change the way I behave, the way

36

I produce, the way I consume.

37

People who adhere to the idea

of direct responsibility.

38

Another way of redirecting responsibility

could also be the free rider excuses

39

and the free rider excuses is, Okay,

well, I don't need to do anything.

40

, I don't need to do anything because

other people would be doing it.

41

Therefore, I would benefit from the

impact of what other people would do.

42

But I think that if we all have this kind

of discourses, nobody will take action.

43

And we will not.

44

Solve the climate problem.

45

Yeah.

46

It sounds a little bit like

the what's in it for me.

47

This is individualism.

48

Yeah.

49

What's in it for me?

50

, the question is that, have you ever had a

discussion with people, organization, or

51

companies that have this kind of discourse

and say, yeah, well it's, remember those

52

are the, the people who recognize this

is a problem but not doing anything.

53

So how does it make you

feel and what do you answer?

54

How do you respond?

55

I have been thinking about where people.

56

So when they have the individualism,

whataboutism, and the free rider

57

excuse, where, where did it start it?

58

So when somebody goes there, I try to

talk about something else and redirect

59

it to what they're already doing in a

group of people or in the organization.

60

And how really they're involved anyway,

even though they don't think they are.

61

Um, I was just going to say on,

on this topic, I'm looking at the,

62

the wheel or the pie or the chart.

63

Um, I've, I've heard people

say about airplanes, well, the

64

airplanes are going there anyway.

65

And I don't know if that fits in this

category, but it seems like it's a

66

good excuse for why it's okay to hop

on flights to go places all the time.

67

Is that, you know, such and such

is far worse than me hopping on

68

a plane, or such and such is far

worse than me driving my car, etc.

69

I think it fits in this category,

but what do you respond?

70

How do you respond to this kind of remark?

71

It depends probably on who it is, because

sometimes it feels like there's no point

72

if I know the person is super entrenched.

73

Um, if it's, if there is any kind of

window of saying, well, you know, every

74

little bit helps, um, maybe if If everyone

did a little bit, this would be different.

75

I go back to the leaf blowers.

76

I'm looking at leaf blowers

blowing leaves all over the place.

77

And just, so frustrating.

78

Um, and I tell everybody I

know how bad those things are.

79

But I think I have to do

something more than that because

80

that's not very effective.

81

So yeah, I think maybe, you know,

you telling people, um, your impact

82

will be one on one, but maybe if you

You managed to, uh, convince your

83

municipality to ban leaf blowers.

84

That will be a much more effective

impact, much bigger impact.

85

Yeah.

86

I think so.

87

Yeah.

88

That's true.

89

Because sometimes people

don't want to change.

90

That's the problem.

91

It's convenient, right?

92

Yes.

93

It's lying from one place to another.

94

It's so convenient.

95

It feels like everybody's overwhelmed

with other things, so they don't

96

want to add another thing on

top of their other commitments.

97

I mean, I think we've had this, we've

talked about this before on the podcast.

98

That people actually hardly change.

99

Most people resist change and

for the most part, combating the

100

climatic situation right now would

actually require a bit of change.

101

So alluding to or just making a comment

on what you said about airplanes,

102

someone might say just like you said,

well, the planes fly either way.

103

Either I fly or do not fly.

104

Most likely would not reduce the amount

of carbon emissions in the atmosphere.

105

Perhaps a great reply to the person

would be, if you do not fly and

106

you tell people why you don't fly,

perhaps we'll have enough people

107

that will not fly that frequently.

108

And that's what I told

my sister some days back.

109

It's like, well, Yeah, maybe it

wouldn't count like be very, very

110

hugely, significantly impactful

that you don't do it or you don't

111

get an award for not doing it.

112

Nobody sees or recognizes you in any

special kind of way, but you will

113

be making a significant change if

you even take it a step further and

114

tell people what you did not do and

the reasons why you didn't do them.

115

And maybe that gets one

more person on board.

116

And if that person gets one

more person on board sooner or

117

later, we would be better off.

118

I saw an interview where the interviewee

was asking a former American president.

119

So I wouldn't say his name.

120

Well, the former American president, the

interviewer, not the interviewee, uh,

121

the former president was the interviewee.

122

And he was asking about how he would

feel today about the climate crisis.

123

And he, he actually give

an intelligent response.

124

He says, He said it feels bad, depressing

to some extent, but he's hopeful because

125

when you look at it, the world has

recovered from very dire situations

126

in, I mean, years and years back.

127

And so it's not something

that we can't recover from.

128

And if we tell each other, which is

the great thing about what he said.

129

He said, if we tell each other, if

the temperature were to go just one

130

degree centigrade less, that could be a

thousand, a hundred thousand, a million

131

lives saved just from the maybe five,

two, three, five, 10 percent decrease

132

in the temperature that it could have

significant impact on the lives of people.

133

So what we're doing is not

for nothing, just, just saying

134

that as far as replies go.

135

Um, yeah, Nikki, do you want to,

do you want to go to the next one?

136

Well, actually what you, the example

you just gave, uh, makes me want to

137

jump to the next one, which is, uh, some

people, again, people, organizations or

138

companies or, uh, association believe

the change will be too disruptive.

139

And so there will be downsides

of change because of course for

140

every kind of change, uh, they all.

141

upside and downsides.

142

Those are the kind of people

believe that the, the downfall

143

will be too, too, too much.

144

And society as a whole would not be.

145

Able to integrate all the downside

and so those may want to find the

146

perfect policy, the perfect solution

that will be inclusive for everybody

147

and um, that, that nobody will be left

out if we implement this new solution.

148

Because that's true because um,

climate change is a big problem,

149

might require some real drastic

transformation of society.

150

If you look at the history, and

therefore for any revolution, it's

151

always been difficult for society.

152

So this kind of thinking is

that we don't do that because

153

it would be too disruptive, and

some people will be left out.

154

I don't know if you have ever discourses.

155

Well, all change hurts, right?

156

All change hurts.

157

But any great leap forward for

humanity has involved loss and

158

grief and struggle and learning.

159

And you just think about, you know, the

internet, how many people were suspicious.

160

Think about the radio, how many

people were suspicious, right?

161

And, oh, I'm never going to do that.

162

And the people that hold out,

uh, until they have to be dragged

163

into it out of complete necessity.

164

It's really, really difficult

to book a hotel room to do

165

anything without the internet.

166

I'm not talking about suspicion

because, um, it's just some, it's

167

change that it's just not socially

inclusive or economically inclusive,

168

does not include everybody.

169

So there will be some people that

will be on the wrong sides of change.

170

Right, but what I'm, what I mean by that

is that it, it, the disruption is so

171

big to try and do what we want to do.

172

It feels so big to some people that

it's too much to even try because

173

you will get that camp of people who

are not wanting to come along, right?

174

Anytime there's a change, there's the

people out front, hey, let's do it.

175

There's the people in the middle

that go along and there's the

176

people you have to drag into it

and it's just, it can be massive.

177

And so sometimes it's too much

work to do that disruption.

178

It's a bit of a laissez

faire attitude, right?

179

Yeah.

180

I think the other thing is excuses, right?

181

And I think this is partly what this

part of the wheel is also about, is

182

about excuses to not do what is needed or

what is right, if that makes any sense.

183

So disruptive change is not necessary.

184

So, I mean, that's how they think

about it, um, because they...

185

mostly want to remove themselves from

the equation or from the idea that

186

there is an impact that I can have.

187

And so part of it is the

technological optimisms.

188

It's like, let's focus on what

technology brings and let's continue

189

to adapt to that or lean on the

breakthroughs of technology.

190

Or the second part, which is, which

actually sticks out to me a lot.

191

It's like all talk and very, very

tiny action or no action at all.

192

So we explain things away

with some big grammar.

193

Like, like I know someone does.

194

Uh, reminds...

195

We're not finger pointing.

196

Yeah, it was not, not doing that

because it's so easy to do that,

197

man.

198

I know someone that he

just explains things.

199

He's so great at explaining, uh,

speaks big, like big English.

200

That's any word, but never does

anything, never does anything.

201

Like if, if it tells you it's

morning, you need to open the curtain

202

and check if it's morning outside.

203

So,

204

so you're sure that you're not being

deceived, but he, he'll beautifully

205

tell you it's morning, the cock is

just cruel, the sun's just shining

206

and you're like, Oh, let me check.

207

And then you see it's night.

208

It's not action.

209

And so all talk and action, but I think.

210

One of the things that they do not

realize, or one of the things that

211

sponsors this kind of reaction to climate

discourses, or which maybe sponsors

212

the delay on their end, is the idea

that the change has to be very big,

213

and the change is something that they

can't make, so they try to mentally

214

stand up to it, whilst practically not

actually do it, so The, I mean, they

215

see the change as something very big.

216

So, but what, what might be helpful

on their end is to let them know that,

217

well, it's, it can start as simple

as insulating your house properly or

218

telling your friends to do certain

things or offering to shop for the

219

next, your next door neighbor, or.

220

Not using leaf blowers or lawn mowers

or using electric wands or starting

221

a food forest instead of a garden.

222

Like, it's not that hard.

223

There's a thousand and one things

you can start to do that will

224

make people start to question you.

225

You do things differently.

226

Why are you doing them like this?

227

Well, because I care about the climate

or because this is happening and I think

228

there's something we can do to combat it.

229

And maybe these are the advantages of it.

230

And people will learn from each other as,

as humanity, when someone does something.

231

Um, we sort of want to imitate

that, especially if it's something

232

that is worthy of emulation.

233

Um, so yeah, that's, that's

the, that's the other thing.

234

I think one key thing there is

to consider the change to be

235

like some really huge thing that

can only be captured in grammar.

236

rather than, um, action.

237

So I'll tell them when I come across

them to start small, start from

238

where they are, consider something

tiny that they can change and

239

maybe work their way up from there.

240

I agree because people don't think

they can have much effect, but if

241

everyone did something, yeah, it's huge.

242

Yeah.

243

That reminded me, uh, an

example of people, one family in

244

Calgary in typical neighborhood.

245

that had just the typical short

grass in front of the houses.

246

They started permaculture,

garden, the food forest you were

247

talking a whole bunch about.

248

And, uh, they had some push against

them, but in, I would say in

249

about two seasons, people started

realizing how Wonderful, it is.

250

And, uh, and they kind of transferred the

whole neighborhood that started looking at

251

the permaculture and food forest ideas and

that it can look beautiful in the city.

252

So, yeah, I love these little

examples that can happen.

253

And sometimes I think we

overlook the downsides of

254

change and, um, it's not true.

255

It's like, you know, I don't know about

how it's like in your countries, but.

256

Maybe 20 years ago, organic food was

considered, ok, it's something very

257

important to have, to eat healthy foods.

258

But organic was not an option,

especially for canteens, because

259

it was deemed too expensive.

260

It's something that we couldn't

do it, we couldn't afford.

261

But now, I think more and more canteens

have converted into organic produce

262

and I think this kind of practices

start to spread in other areas as well,

263

like, you know, even non organic food

growers start to use those small organic

264

practices in their food production.

265

So, I would say to complete what, um,

what we have shared here is that We

266

might overlook the importance of change.

267

The other thing is that it

doesn't have to be that big.

268

The third thing I would say is that

just starts doing something might

269

give ideas to other people because you

can be an inspiration whether you are

270

a person or a company or a country.

271

Yeah.

272

Yes!

273

Yeah, it can be contagious.

274

Contagious.

275

That's a really beautiful way to put it.

276

It's actually contagious.

277

And I think one of the best parts of

taking lethal actions is being proud

278

of it and actually talking about it.

279

Because talking about

it indoctrinates others.

280

They might not listen the first time.

281

If you have a beautiful food forest,

for example, and someone comes to your

282

house and you offer them a nice fruits

and they're like, Oh, this tastes great.

283

Where did you get it from?

284

Or this is really fresh, you know,

it's like, well, I have a food forest

285

behind or somewhere around the house.

286

That's how I got it.

287

Um, for the sake of, you know, being

in vogue as well, or doing something

288

nice, just like you did, they would

sort of be inspired to do similar.

289

So I think it's also been

proud to talk about it.

290

It's probably the most

important part, to be honest.

291

Like if nobody asks you, go ahead and

talk about it, start the conversation.

292

Oh, I mean, I'm just thinking about it.

293

It might seem weird going to a

neighbor and saying, Hey, man,

294

let, let me shop for you this week.

295

What, what do you want to buy?

296

Make me a list.

297

Okay.

298

Sorry.

299

Sorry.

300

What's going on?

301

And, and, and they go, well,

thanks for the kindness, but no,

302

I like shopping myself, it's like,

why do you want to shop for me?

303

And, and even if you don't end up

shopping for that neighbor, If they

304

ask why and you get a chance to explain

why even if they don't let you do the

305

shopping, it's still a win because now

you just told one more person about

306

climate change, what's possible and

certain things that should be done.

307

And so that's, that's probably

even more impactful than the

308

shopping because you just planted

a seed, if that makes any sense.

309

It'd be pretty weird, anyway,

for a neighbor to walk up to me

310

and say, let me shop for you.

311

I'm like, hold up, hold up.

312

Yeah.

313

But there are, there are many

examples, um, like that for sure.

314

I, um, I heard a story the

other day, um, three of our

315

kids work in the film industry.

316

Two of them were telling, they

worked on the same set, and

317

they were telling me this story.

318

They have food provided

for them, um, all the time.

319

Um, they've got, um, snacks, and

then they've got actual meals

320

that they can have at any time,

any day, whatever they want.

321

There's a lot of waste.

322

And I guess the food company decided to

try meatless Mondays, which is a thing.

323

And they tried to serve food without meat.

324

Well, there was this entire

uprising, um, and, and my, my son and

325

daughter in law were quite dismayed.

326

And, and she got very passionate about it.

327

And she said, it's one day.

328

It's one day you could eat vegetables.

329

Anyway, she went off.

330

She was just so mad that the whole thing

was so upsetting to people because it

331

was one day out of the whole entire week

when they got as much as they wanted.

332

But the, the organization that

made the food was trying to do

333

something small to make a difference.

334

Yeah.

335

And sometimes it takes a long

time and a lot of education before

336

you can get people on board.

337

Yeah.

338

Totally agree.

339

I'm glad they tried and

maybe they'll try it again.

340

But that's an example of where

it didn't go over that well.

341

I think maybe had they

done some education first.

342

It might have worked better.

343

Yeah, I think the what's good about

what they did is next time that happens

344

to any of them, the people that were

present there, it will seem less weird.

345

It's like, oh, well, we've

been through this before.

346

Just serve the vegetables.

347

We'll eat it.

348

Yeah, I think you all just kind

of addressed another category.

349

Is that disruptive

change is not necessary.

350

And those kind of thinking pushes

for non transformative solutions.

351

Like, you know, a small thing,

and we talk about grand ideas,

352

but we don't do big, big things.

353

Because it's um, I guess it's too big.

354

And also another reason why some

people, organizations, , hide behind

355

this kind of discourses is that , they

are technologically optimists.

356

So they are waiting for perfect

solution to, that will solve everything.

357

And so I think this is quite interesting

as well, this kind of thinking.

358

Yeah.

359

Have you ever had this kind

of, um, conversation, this kind

360

of discourses with someone?

361

Typically, you know, it's like, you

know, we don't, and again, we're going

362

back to, we're going back to flying.

363

Uh, we don't need to, to consider

how we go from one place to another.

364

We can keep taking the plane because

one day the, we will find a solution to

365

fly , , that will not increase a carbon

emission or there will, we'll find a

366

solution that will absorb enough carbon.

367

So.

368

That's fine.

369

Well, this solution will come or we

can, yeah, typically also you have,

370

um, , the technological optimist , who

strongly believe that we'll find

371

a solution, , to solve a problem,

therefore we don't need to consume less

372

because, um, we have solutions like,

you know, nuclear fission is coming.

373

We have also, uh, , geothermal

energy, geothermal energy, yeah.

374

So we'll find a way to use that and

have unlimited resources of energy.

375

Yeah.

376

Well, and this past week, um,

Texas has realized, I mean, they

377

got above 110 degrees Fahrenheit.

378

Wow.

379

Which is like 40 something in

cent, in, in Celsius, I think.

380

I think it's more.

381

But yeah, it's, it's something big.

382

It's something big.

383

I can't do the conversion, but

they were saying you couldn't, you

384

know, you could barely go outside.

385

It was, if you didn't have

air conditioning, you'd

386

be seriously in trouble.

387

And they were talking about, um, they

were interviewing somebody on our, our

388

national program about energy consumption

and how they're going to have to.

389

increase that and, and, and not,

uh, strain the grid because it,

390

this is just sort of, this is June.

391

This wasn't even in July or August, um,

and they were talking about how there's

392

not a lot of infrastructure in many

places for this kind of temperature.

393

Um, well, you know, it was a heat

dome similar to what we had a couple

394

of years ago that that we had a lots

of people succumb to and, um, and so

395

I think in some ways we can push it

off and push it off and push it off.

396

But there's evidence around everywhere

you look that you can only push

397

it off for so long before it's

going to personally have an impact.

398

And that makes total sense because

one of the reasons that The

399

technological optimists, so to say,

are that way is because they do

400

not think that the catastrophe is

at a level or relatively imminent.

401

So they might think that is still far

off and we'll walk away on whatever

402

solution comes that doesn't require

us to stop eating meat before then.

403

But yeah, I think that's one of

the thing that sponsors that.

404

Because when you, when you consider

that this is bad and it's bad now,

405

it's more motivating to do something

about it than when you're told it's

406

like, it's way, way into the future.

407

I mean, when we were in school, we

would study, we know what it feels

408

like to study for an exam two days

to it, rather than preparing, rather

409

than preparing adequately before time.

410

Oh, yeah, I like that analogy.

411

It's it's really nice.

412

Yeah, I mean, I know what it's like

because I've been in a position where I

413

started preparing for the exam two days.

414

to it.

415

Um, I was literally reading like I

was, I was reading till I entered

416

the hall and then I dropped

the book to go write the exam.

417

It was that bad.

418

Uh, cramming.

419

Yeah.

420

And then when you, when you studied

this way, you don't remember.

421

And the whole point is not to pass the

exam is , the point is to learn the

422

stuff and then for the rest of your life.

423

But yeah.

424

So, but I'm sidetracked.

425

Yeah.

426

So are you saying that we're, we're

cramming for the climate change?

427

Is that what you're saying?

428

Right.

429

I mean, I was there.

430

I was sweaty.

431

I was tensed.

432

I was scared that I didn't read

something and it was going to come out.

433

And that happened, man.

434

I, I passed by, um, man, I

was hanging on by a thread.

435

I was literally hanging on by a thread.

436

So it's, uh, I think that's the case

for, you can explain something away

437

when it's not in front of you, right?

438

And, and this is also particular for,

this is also likely to be coming from

439

people that may not have experienced

any catastrophe or the impact of climate

440

change firsthand, because if you have, You

likely will be telling a different story.

441

Yeah, it's, you know,

it's happening over there.

442

Yeah.

443

But we're okay.

444

I think Christina's

burning to say something.

445

You guys, that reminded me, the

technological optimism, I think it was

446

one of the prompts that made us start

connecting the carbon dots, connecting

447

the dots on the carbon almanac.

448

Because we want to have simple

problems, simple solution,

449

and it never works like that.

450

There's so many other connections.

451

So for example.

452

The solution, technical solution for

sequestering carbon is creating other

453

problems or in other industries,

they try to solve one thing, but

454

they create more problems in the

other, not seeing the whole picture.

455

And it seems like technical

solutions are taking care of

456

just one little narrow thing.

457

. I would like to add something to that,

um, to the technological optimist, uh,

458

because technology adaptation requires

some time because you need to research

459

the technology and then deploy it.

460

And by deploying it is that you need to

find the application in the industry,

461

make it mainstream, widespread, and

also build infrastructure for it.

462

And that , that will not happen overnight.

463

So , that is, I think, one of the big

problem for, um, for the perfect solution.

464

Yeah, so one drip at a time.

465

Yeah.

466

And study, study before you write an exam.

467

Oh my God.

468

That rhymed, that rhymed,

469

that rhymed.

470

One drip at a time.

471

Study before you write your exam.

472

You should probably write us a rap.

473

Man, I should be rapping.

474

I should be wrap.

475

Carpet.

476

Wrapping.

477

The carbon wrap.

478

Wrap.

479

Just kind of wrap the common wrap.

480

Are we gonna wrap?

481

Wrap?

482

Okay.

483

One last, one last

category before we wrap.

484

We go.

485

This is , the thinking that that

pushes people to surrender because

486

there's kind of thinking that beliefs

that it's not possible mitigate

487

climate change because it's too late.

488

So why bother try to do something

because it's not possible.

489

We're all gonna die.

490

That is your self indicator.

491

Well, it's, it's doom.

492

It's doom and gloom.

493

But it has been these causes of...

494

Love people, actually.

495

Some people that, in private,

they will never say it out loud.

496

But in private conversations,

and I would not name anyone.

497

But I had this kind of conversation

with people, it's like, okay,

498

well, whatever, you know, we'll

die anyway, because it's too late.

499

So what do you answer that,

to that kind of, um, thinking?

500

Yeah.

501

Hope is one of the, um, intrinsic

qualities of humanity, of

502

anything that's living, actually.

503

And, um, and I think it's very strong.

504

And so if there are, um, , having

worked intensely with people going

505

through trauma, et cetera, hope

is incredibly hard to extinguish.

506

And so if there's any way to help people

like that have even a little bit of hope,

507

um, it might spur on some action, I think.

508

That would be beautiful if people are...

509

For me, that's what works

when I'm in that state of...

510

So you are sometimes, yeah.

511

I, uh, I go outside.

512

Yeah.

513

And I go outside and just do nothing

and just look at some, some natural

514

flower, tree, even little flower

growing through the concrete.

515

And in few minutes, just staring at that.

516

There, it's, there's so much

strength to the life and, and the

517

nature that kind of hope creeps in.

518

And also taking action.

519

This um, this brings me to

the conversation that we had.

520

a long time ago about

eco anxiety, remember?

521

I mean, it was you, Jen, and someone

else, but um, eco anxiety is a thing, and

522

one of the solutions, because typically,

the kind of thinking that makes you

523

surrender and believe that there's nothing

you can do to mitigate climate change,

524

it's very much linked to eco anxiety.

525

And so one of the solutions

is to take action.

526

Go outside, and the other

thing is to take action.

527

Is that when you don't do some, anything.

528

You're just passive and you just,

you know, you just let things, you

529

don't, you lose direction and that

increases, it feeds the anxiety.

530

Yeah, I, I think this is, this is a very

beautiful way to, um, wrap up this, um,

531

Circle.

532

Well, that's, or I su Okay.

533

I said rap, honest.

534

I su Nell.

535

It's not Snell at all, but I su Oh yeah.

536

We, we should drop, we

should write it for us.

537

We should drop an album

or a single or something.

538

I think we're, we're getting there soon.

539

Um, . But yeah.

540

Happy to, happy to . But, but

I think it's a great, this is a

541

great one to end with because.

542

Um, I saw a reel on Instagram and the

person was saying that people can be

543

extremely productive when they find

purpose, when you give them something

544

to work towards and something to do.

545

It's like if you pick a miserable person.

546

And give the person a goal to achieve

something the person finds true and um

547

Interesting to do you would be amazed

that they would crawl over glass just to

548

get it done So I think it might apply a

little bit here Um when when the feeling

549

of hopelessness or doomism sets in it's

probably okay Just like you said liki to

550

Take an action and not just take action,

but consider thing and see that, well,

551

maybe it's not that bad and look around

and ask questions like, what can I do?

552

And what can I do now?

553

And like Seth would usually

say, who's coming along with me?

554

Can I bring someone along?

555

Can I be committed to something

that sort of makes a change?

556

And when we're committed to things.

557

It can grow it can grow because

whatever we pay attention to actually

558

grows so It starts like that.

559

I was I was in the carbon almanac

one day Not knowing very much about

560

climate change And I've moved from

that to delivering keynote sessions

561

and workshops or well sessions, let's

just put it, about climate change.

562

And podcasting about it about every

week and taking my plate to the

563

eatery each time I go to buy food

because I don't want plastics.

564

They've laughed at me so much.

565

When they see me now, they're

like, Oh, that's the guy that

566

always comes with his plate.

567

One time I took my plate to

the restaurant and the security

568

wouldn't let me in with it.

569

They're like, what are you carrying, sir?

570

I'm like, well, that's my plate

and I'm about to buy food.

571

And the manager was looking from across

the counter and then she walked to the

572

door and was like, Stop harassing my

customer and then she picked me from the

573

door and and the guy never stopped me ever

again And each time they ask me what is

574

why is it so like it's it's cheap to buy

the plastic What why are you bringing your

575

plates and costing yourself extra money?

576

It's an opportunity to tell them and

I always do that What I start with is

577

that do you know that plastic steaks?

578

About 1, 000, 000 years to decay or

to decompose, and there's a shock

579

on their face like, what really?

580

I'm like, well, yeah, that spoon you're

holding, if it finds itself in the

581

ground, will be there until your great,

great, great, great, great grandchild

582

is born and maybe even be there longer.

583

It's like, and it's hurting, it's

hurting the ecosystem is hurting the

584

ground is hurting the environment.

585

And, you know, they just.

586

Sort of act like, Oh, well,

what do you want to buy?

587

Like, well, that's what I want to buy.

588

But eventually they're sort of learning

as well, which is the most fun part of it.

589

Start like, start like teaching

them and getting them to see that.

590

Um, there's a lady that asked me one

time and then I think the other person

591

was right beside her and then rather

than me saying it, she was the one

592

saying, explaining to her colleague

because she has, she had heard it from

593

me more and like over and over again.

594

And she was just, she literally

said it in my words and the other

595

person was, uh, I was like, oh, okay.

596

And so it's sort of like that, the change

we make when we, it wouldn't start at

597

once, but like committing to something.

598

Progressively can be very, very

helpful and help inspire hope as well.

599

It's, it's not too late

and you're making a ruckus.

600

Yeah.

601

Thanks for listening.

602

That was fun.

603

Thanks.

604

That was wonderful.