In Part 2 of this Backstage Money conversation, host Jason K Powers continues his discussion with music industry mentor Chris Fletcher, founder of Music Biz Mentors.

This half of the conversation focuses on the practical realities of building income as a musician and thinking creatively about career sustainability. Chris shares examples of overlooked opportunities that musicians often miss, from session work and voiceover jobs to writing for television, teaching, production work, and other ways artists can monetize their skills beyond touring and streaming.

The discussion also explores sponsorships, endorsements, crowdfunding, and subscription platforms like Patreon. Chris explains how artists can attract brand support, why audience size and engagement matter to sponsors, and how independent musicians can fund projects without taking on unnecessary debt.

Jason and Chris also talk about financial discipline for musicians, including tracking income, understanding expenses, negotiating performance fees, and learning how venues actually make money. Chris shares practical advice from years of working with artists on how to price gigs, manage finances, and avoid common mistakes that derail careers.

If you are an independent musician, songwriter, or artist trying to turn your skills into sustainable income, this episode offers real-world insight into the business side of staying in the music industry long term.

This is Part 2 of a two-part conversation. Part 1 covers starting a career in music, building industry connections, and what most artists misunderstand about getting momentum in the music business.

Backstage Money is real-world finance for musicians, where music and money collide through honest conversations with artists and industry professionals who are living it.

Connect with Chris Fletcher

Music Biz Mentors

https://musicbizmentors.com

Backstage Money

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https://1024wealth.com/music

Well, there's something to be said though about that consistency.

You know, I, I think most people.

If you are consistent about anything, if it's okay, I've got to

send 300 emails, I gotta send 300.

We'll use this social media example you gave, I've gotta use, I've got a message,

a thousand followers on Instagram.

That is an overwhelming task.

Oh yeah,

And then you just freeze.

You're like, I, it's too much.

I can't do it.

Well, if you just said, I'm gonna message five a day, can you handle five a day?

Yeah.

and just do it.

And before long you'll look back and go, oh, wow, look how far I came.

So that, I mean, that's just one thing.

If it's like, I need to make one good contact this week in the business that

will help me in my career just one a week, that's a very manageable goal.

You know?

I,

do that.

You could do that on LinkedIn.

yeah.

Right.

even have to leave your house.

Yeah, yeah.

It's true.

It's true.

But then I think those consistence steps.

Are what propels people forward.

And you'll look back a year from now and go, oh, wow.

I never thought but I think people bite off too much at the

beginning and go, A thousand messages, there's no stinking way.

I'm gonna do a thousand messages.

And you go, well, you could if you start now, you know, it's not old.

How do we grow this big tree in our business?

How do we grow this big, huge tree?

You know?

And people are always we use it in the finance business.

Talking about growing your wealth.

You know, people talk about how do I build this big tree?

I should have planted this tree 20 years ago.

Right,

it's like that old proverb.

Well, but you didn't, so when's the second best time to plant a tree plant

right,

Is today.

Today's the second best time to plant.

You know, start now.

Start something, even if it's baby, baby, baby steps.

right.

And you'll, you'll never look back.

Oh, I wish I would've waited longer.

The, the first step is the hardest.

Yeah.

said The hardest is to start, second hardest is to start again.

So if you've paid your dues and you're doing the stuff and then you decide you're

gonna stop and you have to come back, you're gonna have to pay those dues again,

Mm-hmm.

that is really, really hard.

I've done it with some people and it worked with some people

and it didn't work with some

Yeah.

you know, but life happens.

You have to understand that life happens, whatever is going on.

Sometimes somebody gets sick, sometimes you get sick.

Sometimes you know, you have, all of a sudden you have a, you

know, a daughter that wants to go to soccer camp and it costs.

Millions of times to do it.

You gotta get more money.

And I'm all for supporting your life, whatever it is.

And so I'm okay give you even having a side job.

The side job though, let it be in the entertainment industry

so you can still keep growing.

So do video production, do anything, you know, work, sound in

a venue, you know, whatever it is.

I, my thing was always when I came out here was to always

have a job in the industry.

It didn't matter what it was, but I saw how, 'cause I worked with a

voiceover guy one time and I used to promote him when there was a new.

Person on radio and TV kind of thing, and like a new manager.

And he loved to hear me actually like pitch him.

But the big deal for me was I called one time and the girl said,

oh yeah, we can take something.

And she says, what's your name?

I said, it's Chris Fletcher.

She goes, I know of Chris Fletcher that used to work for bands.

I said, I do.

And she goes, Chris, it's Rhonda.

Remember I used to do your interviews from Music Connection And you

know what I was like, look how close entertainment industry is.

It's not just music that's entertainment.

And so you can always grow in between that.

interesting that it's not as, it's not as big a world as you think

it is that people, people and all that kind of stuff, you know?

Even the guy that, though I know he had a he had a production

job for the TV show out here.

And what do they do?

They have rap parties, and when they have the rap parties, his band plays.

And who's at the b Who's at the the rap party, all the music directors.

So then before he knew it, all his, their songs were on the TV show,

Mm.

you know,

Mm-hmm.

life is interesting kinda stuff, but it's a real, it's a small world.

Yes.

Yeah, it is, it is.

Well, I think in the end, the musician desires to make money

doing what they're doing.

Yeah.

the end, I would love this to support me full-time so I can do this full-time and.

You know, so, but I think also many musicians assume the only way to make

money is through touring and streaming

Yeah.

nowadays.

That's the perspective.

But the fact of the matter is, right, it's, there's a lot of other ways

musicians can monetize their skills.

So let's talk about, you know, what kind of jobs or income streams or

musicians often overlooking even when you talk about, you know, even

just these parties, like this example of the party and meeting people.

You know, what kind of income streams are people often overlooking?

There, 'cause I work with so many musicians, there's so many weird jobs

you never even thought of, you know?

Even being a piano tuner, like every time they move a piano, they gotta do that.

I had a guy, the one of the guys, the, a guitar player, I know he was

on the road and when the pandemic hit, I called and said, how you doing?

And he said, well, my friend's in advertising.

And he asked me to go on, would I be willing to go on the billboard

charts and pull, you know, 10 songs off and just do those songs?

Just on guitar and he said, I can do that.

And so if you go to any elevator in Los Angeles and you hear somebody playing

an instrumental guitar for a well-known song, it's him who thought that was a

job you didn't even know that was a job.

That kinda stuff.

So there's just so many different things.

Most people wanna do session work, you know, where they play with

other people and stuff like that.

And my friend had done that for years.

He played ham and piano.

And so when he went in one time, of course he didn't tell him it was Guns N Roses.

so that, like, what he did, and two days later called, he was

an original band I work with.

And he was like okay, this is how much money you make.

This is how long you've been going on.

This is, do you wanna do it?

he was like, I gotta go.

So he went and.

give you the idea how much money you can make, you come back and

buy a house with it kind of thing.

But the biggest deal was how many well-known musicians go to see

Guns and Roses and takes his card.

And he has been a touring musician for 25 years.

He never set out to do that.

It just happened.

He loved it.

He loves it.

Still doing it, loves it stuff.

And so, by doing that stuff, the girl, a girl I talked to yesterday,

she was like, oh, you know, I'm a singer and you know, I've been

trying to get in the singing network.

And I said, there's a singer's network here.

It's called Sagging Ara.

You need to kind of be a part of that.

And she was like, oh, I'm part of this, a part of.

I said, no, you need to go to second after you need to meet other people doing it

Yeah.

they'll get their own job.

But then when they're doing something bigger, they'll give you a sub,

they'll have you substitute for them,

Okay.

of stuff.

And so the one girl said, I wanna do voiceovers.

I said, well.

Sarah I knew does voiceover.

She goes out on the row with people, lemme see if I can email you back and

Yeah.

So I emailed them and she said, when I talked to Sarah, I talked to Sarah

first and she said, oh, we, oh, we, the singers, we all meet like

every week for breakfast somewhere.

so they went to breakfast and three weeks later she was here.

I am doing my first voiceover, you know,

great.

interesting that it's all about.

And the other girl I work with and I told her story 'cause she was on the

panel yesterday and they were saying like, you know, sometimes it's just

being there, just knowing where to go.

And she said there was a jam here and a lot of Brazilian

artists went, she was Brazilian.

And she said, Ugh.

She says, it's 11 o'clock at night.

she says, every time I go, somebody wants to hire me to sing or to

play piano or something like that.

And I said, take a nap girl.

And go.

So it's just going, it's not easy to go, I know you don't want to, or it's too late.

So once in a while you gotta go and bring somebody with you, And a couple people

said to me, you know, I have stage fright.

I don't know where to go to start playing.

I said, go to a open mic night and just go to see how it feels.

Who's gonna be in the audience?

Other musicians, they're gonna help you with that kinda stuff, right?

They're gonna give you phrase and all that kinda stuff I said, but you

got to get up there and then you can do one song and feel cool about it.

And then you can go to other ones or stay at that one, you

know, kind of do that stuff and you'll meet other musicians there.

So it's about meeting people who are, if you wanna, if you wanna sing.

At a restaurant or something like that, and there's a band or there's

a musician there, get to know them.

Because what's the deal is, is that they may call you, come call you up

to do a couple songs, and they go, oh, you'd be a great sub for me.

So when I have something else to do, I will call you.

You know, whether it's a DJ or it's a solo, a musician, or somebody in a band.

So that's, got to know other people doing it and try to get into that somehow.

You know, there are meetup groups online, you know, so

you can do that kind of stuff.

But it's about getting out and being in the mus trying to find

other musicians that do stuff.

And they will, they, of course, they'll get their gig first

and then they'll get a gig.

But I always, you know, there's enough work out here for everybody.

Yes, it's very competitive,

Mm-hmm.

enough work for everybody

Yeah.

think about it kind of

Yeah.

So.

a wide variety of ways to, I mean, even if it's not what you wanna do full time,

Right.

know, to make this side money and you know, the side hustle as we say.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, even if it's, you talked about tuning a piano or even if

it's teaching or lessons on the side, I know several that do that are doing that.

Writing for other artists, you know, you find some things

you're good at that you can do.

That you can, that you can do it.

But it goes back to, like you're saying, it's, you gotta know pe.

If you don't know anybody, if you don't meet people, if you don't ever

leave your house, you're gonna have a hard time continuing to get business

Yeah,

that regard.

your music in your garage the guy with the big cigar is not gonna find you the name

Yeah, that's right.

deal and stuff.

it's really, it's really interesting.

I mean, the whole thing about just, you know, just doing something on the side, I

is, it depends, you know, we had a, I work with a couple musicians that were singing

at churches and they needed sheet music and we all know there's a program for

sheet music, but they don't wanna do it.

So we found somebody that, that would do our songs for $35.

She lived in, she didn't live here, she lived in Portland.

And so we would send it to her and tell her, you know,

what we wanted to do with it.

And the next day she'd give it to us.

And so people were like, wow, like you have real music now.

It happened and we say, we have a girl that would do this stuff.

They go, can you gimme her number?

So I started, I called, can I give you a nu Yeah, sure.

She was a musician too.

So then a month later she goes, stop giving my name out because

I, I'm a musician too, you know, I have too much work now.

Mm-hmm.

just knowing that little program,

Yeah.

that, that she's just started a si, she didn't even try to do a side

Mm-hmm.

did a favor force kinda stuff.

So any of those little programs that you learn for yourself, you

can do it on your own, on your own time and make money doing that.

So really amazing.

You know, the weird, different things that you can do.

I mean, even think about if you wanna write songs for TV and film

and stuff like that, It might be hard to break into, but think of all the

networks we have who has series Hulu.

like, you know, spectrum has their own channel kind of stuff, and you

can write songs for them, and then you have some credits and then you can

get into the bigger things, of stuff.

We can start at a lower level and get the credits, and then it shows, oh, they're

writing for this and this and this, so they'll, they'll give you a chance.

That kind of stuff.

So, writing songs, I mean, there are two, the two biggest ways for musicians to

make money placements, tv, film, whatever other kind of networks are our media and

touring, those two things belong to you.

The royalties keep coming if they have the advertisement on over and over again.

But those two things belong to you unless you give somebody a piece of it.

And yeah, there's other ways, but if you wanna concentrate on making

money on streaming, you need to find someone who knows how to do that.

I know a guy that spent five years learning how to do that for himself, and

when he finally, when he got it, he now works for small label and to do that.

Mm-hmm.

makes some really good money doing that.

And he learned, he learned pro tools for himself, so now he's teaching pro tools,

Teach it.

Yeah.

See?

Yep.

Yep.

So,

I love it.

You

Yeah.

um, just keeping your eyes and ears open.

If somebody, even somebody, and I say musician will also sometime in your

life will ask, will you teach me?

Mm-hmm.

And they'll ask you to do session work.

They just will, whether you set out to do it or not.

Mm-hmm.

kind of stuff.

So a lot of possibilities out there.

But you gotta take the chance, you gotta, you

That's right.

see what you wanna do and stuff like that.

And you can say, I wanna do voiceovers,

Mm-hmm.

take a

there,

class.

get out there and pursue it and try it.

You know?

the way to go,

Uh, let's talk about other people's money.

I, this is an area a lot of artists don't fully understand.

You know, Chris, you worked with artists on things like sponsorship and grants and

funding opportunities, and I wanna talk about how musicians can, you know, fund

their careers and maybe even, especially without taking on personal debt,

right?

things like this.

Yeah.

You know.

When we got the Budweiser sponsorship years ago for one of my bands,

we didn't set out to get it.

They went to a local radio station here who had a local program

and said, what are the five top unsigned bands in Los Angeles?

And he said it was us.

then we went and we did a little, we did a little show

for them, and we were so little.

I thought they hated us.

And they're like, we loved you.

I'm like, you did right?

So, so they, what?

They had what they called an unsigned band, cont you know,

sponsorship they were doing.

And they put five cities and put five and spoke and picked five

bands in each city, each to support.

But we were doing a hundred shows a year already.

We already could fill the Roxy with 400 fans.

So sponsorship and endorsements they wanna know how many eyes are on you.

So this is when social media counts.

This is when it counts.

they know sponsorship people that if you, they always say if you are

playing at a festival you're wearing a certain hat, or you're drinking a

water, or whatever it is, that 89% of the people in the room will try it.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like part of 11% though.

I

Yeah.

know, people are like, oh, I love those boots.

Where are they?

And I'm like, they're good boots.

And I move on.

You know?

I mean, I'm not,

Yeah.

not that way.

Mm-hmm.

think you'll try it and then you'll go, Ooh, I like

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

work, they wouldn't do it.

Right.

So

Sure.

where the numbers count.

But you can go to small, smaller companies too.

Things like, I had a band that was going up and down the west coast doing colleges

and festivals and stuff like that.

So, they used to go, two of them in the band, there's six of them.

They used to go in and wear hats.

And so they went to this local hat place that she always, they always

went and they go, the girl came in, you know, after like the second time they

went in, they're like, that's funny.

Like every three or four months you come out, you guys both buy a hat.

And she, they say, oh, we're in a band.

And she was like, Hmm, do you have a merch table?

Like, yeah.

She goes, well, maybe you be willing to do this, but maybe every time

that you come in you can take two hats, whatever you want for free.

And I'll get a little display and some cards so people can get us online.

And she said, I'll pay you $300,

Mm-hmm.

um, to do that for us.

So we're like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

then, then the girl, the girl, one of the girls in the band, she had really

curly hair, so she used a product.

went to them and said, Hey, we're going on the road.

This is where we're going.

This is what we're doing.

Do you ever sponsor anybody?

And they were like, wow.

Oh, sure.

And we didn't tell 'em like how much you're like, can we give you $600

when you go out and you'll put a display on and we'll send you stuff

that people like take off the table.

Like, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

That kinda stuff.

So it can be small, it doesn't have to be large, that

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so that's important, you know, that that's important, that endorsements.

Endorsements means product.

Sponsorship means money.

Maybe some product here and there, that kinda stuff.

But then there's, I saw these people doing crowdfunding, you know, and I

was like, how are they making money?

Look at all the money they're making, right?

So I started looking at some of the stuff and they had a little video.

And so if you wanna if you have a half decent, if you have three to 500 people

on your email list, then you could probably do a crowdfunding with it.

Whatever you wanna do.

Kickstarter pledge, or not GoFundMe, that's for like

Right, right.

you know?

But you do a video, tell people what's going on with it, and then you give

them, you, you can pre-buy the CD at

Right.

You can do this.

So you give them opportunities

Mm-hmm.

to pre-buy things.

'cause I'm musicians going, I hate to ask for money.

Yeah.

And I'm like, we're not doing that.

You don't have to under, you have to understand they're pre-buying from you.

That kinda stuff.

And so, but I was like watching people like, man, they're making a lot of money.

And then I started thinking about it.

So I said, when I went to class the other day, I said, so if my niece is

selling Girl Scout cookies, 'cause I've been seeing them all around

and I bring 'em in and go, look, my niece is selling Girl Scout cookies.

Anybody want any, like, I'll buy a box.

Now what they're doing is people are sending, my niece is in a band, can I

send you their link and you'll donate.

Mm-hmm.

they don't really even care about the band, but they have 400 people that

paid them $25 to get a CD that they

Yeah.

Yeah.

play kinda stuff.

And I was like, wow.

You know?

And so you look to see what everybody else is doing, whoever's successful,

and see what they're doing.

And you got it really promoted.

Right.

they'll have people share it, you know, all that kinda stuff.

But there's a, that's a way to kind of make money.

I knew somebody who did it by himself did not do the sharing.

He put an email out and said, look, need $10,000 to record and promote my music.

you donate, this is what I'll do for you.

That kind of stuff.

they, and he funded his project that way.

And

It's great.

so he,

It happen.

I've seen it happen recently with several bands actually surprisingly

that that surprisingly that there's so many popping up doing

documentaries for example, that have

yeah.

been there and they want to do some video documentary and

they wanna raise money for it.

And, and so I'm like, yeah, if you gimme a copy of it, I'll pitch, you know,

in the end and, and things like that.

And I think people are happy to support.

We don't like asking for money.

It's different.

It's very different than.

You mentioned the GoFundMe.

The GoFundMe happens all the time.

Right.

Um, and I see it a lot and a, most of the time you see a GoFundMe

it's some heartbreaking situation.

Something has come up.

The music industry does well in churning money, but artists have not done well

in retaining the money, let's say.

And so there's, and how do we spend it in a proper way?

How do we spend it, do smart spending?

How do we even plan for the future?

Well, you know, my margins are so thin or whatever, you know, how do you do that?

And it really is, I think, comes to, you know, I would say it's about control.

How do you

Yeah.

put yourself in a position where you're more in control of your money?

You know?

And we can have those conversations about the labels and how that works.

But that, you know, not the point of this conversation that it's,

it's that understand the difference.

Yeah,

You know, the GoFundMe is much different than the Kickstarter campaign for a cause,

for a purpose, for, for an end goal that the fans are gonna get something back for.

Right?

and look the kind of, the newest, one of that is a subscription

service called Patreon.

Yep.

Patreon.

Yep.

For $4 a month, this is what we'll give you For $10 a month, I'll give you this.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

And then this automatically comes to you, whether it's through and

make sure you have a PayPal and a Zelle and a Venmo and all those.

Because people when, 'cause I, when I still go out and help some of my

musicians with shows and stuff like that.

so surprised people have cash.

You know, they,

Yeah.

I thought I was the only one that write a $20 bill with me, but they give me cash.

Or when they, even if we have a credit card machine that we

can take for that stuff too.

They say, oh, you have a Venmo.

And they pay me on Venmo.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

the, the venues are still paying checks now.

It's not automated.

Very rarely do they automate.

Interesting.

So there's just, somebody said you still get checks and Oh yeah, still

Yeah.

Yeah,

But we have mobile deposit now, so.

yeah.

Right, right.

Thank.

Um, but yeah, I mean the, there's, there's different ways and you know what?

Having a great merch item, whether it's a shirt or a hat or whatever

it is, and more and more and more people are getting smart about it.

So I had a friend who was he, every once in a while I was

playing at a church out here.

So I went to see him one day and he had this shirt and really big

it said, choose Love on it, right?

And I said, oh, and he sold his last one.

And he said, oh, I didn't see that shirt before.

He goes, I wrote a song for the church when I went called Choose Love.

I can't keep this in stock.

So people are using their song titles

Yeah.

for the shirt

Yeah.

putting their logo somewhere else.

Mm-hmm.

and, and also being smart.

I mean, it's really hard to carry all that stuff so people are, you know,

small, medium, large, extra large, you know, all those kind of things.

The sizes are killers when you're moving that stuff.

So a lot of people are just carrying a large and extra large and have

a sample of the medium and the small, and then working with one

of those print on demand companies.

So if you want

Right.

they have a QR code that you can go like this and you can order it right

in front of them then you won't get as much money, but you won't lose the sale.

Mm-hmm.

So people are getting smart about that stuff.

When the pandemic started and my roommate went to the first conference

she went to at the Hollywood Bowl, I said, lemme ask you a question.

Is there a merch table?

And she was like, I don't remember if I saw a merch table.

And I was like, yeah, this is where it's gonna have a problem.

be able to come to the table.

That kind of stuff, you know?

And so people started to get, you know, in 2019, people

didn't know what a QR code was.

Right.

I went to a conference and we didn't bring we just, on the poster, we put

a QR code so they could see the video.

And it was for college students.

And, you know, I thought everybody knew what that was in 2019.

And I'm going, you wanna see a video?

Got your phone, Uhhuh go like this.

And they're like, what?

They go like this.

And they were like, wow.

Everybody kept coming.

And then, you know, the pandemic, everybody knew what a QR

that's right.

Now everything has a QR code.

It's like.

yes, even if you, even if you have a card or a flyer or something like that

and people take it before they throw it away, you're gonna hit that QR code,

Yep.

Yep.

uh, and for a tip, all kinds of stuff that we're doing with that kind

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, technology is great.

Sometimes it's not when we start talking about AI and all

Yeah.

ation taken away and that kinda stuff.

Yeah.

but we have to roll with the punches here.

Technology's gonna keep going and you can't go, I'm just

not gonna do social media.

Right?

come on, this is crazy.

But there, but, you know, I do a class grant writing class at school

Mm-hmm.

started doing grants years ago.

'cause I went to a booking conference and the California Arts Council said,

you wanna know how to do grants?

Come at eight o'clock in the morning, we'll give you breakfast.

I'm like, okay.

Down there.

And I was like, know what?

I think I can do this.

You know,

Yeah.

easy, I did it.

And then I didn't know that you could go watch them, judge it.

And my friend came back and she said I said, I don't know how I did.

You know, 'cause it was a 15 page application form.

And she said.

You were in the top 5% And I said, I was.

And she said, yeah.

So I said, okay.

So I started helping other musicians do that kinda stuff.

So I kind of know what they're looking for and they wanted keep it simple.

And there's, you know, and also people didn't know about

Grants till the pandemic, right?

There are still grants.

Verizon has a Verizon Digital Ready grant, it's called.

They give it to new bus, new new businesses business need help.

They do it twice a year.

They give $10,000 grants out.

All you have to do is fill out the application and say who

you are and what's going on.

They said, and if you don't get it this time, try it again.

Next time

Yep.

a hundred grants a year out.

Wow.

There's, there's plenty.

All the big companies give stuff like that out.

Yeah, I think there's just, there's so many opportunities out there.

It is just a matter of, you know, keep your eyes open, look around,

get creative, find ways to hustle.

Right.

Really.

And, and it's find ways to, to think outside the box.

You know, musicians are such a creative group.

Right.

Um, and

They

when it,

the other side of

the, we need the other side of the creative, right?

The fi gets, get financially creative now and, and you do really need to

get financially creative to make it in this business a lot of the time.

And that's where kind of we touched on, you know, on the control side.

I think, you know, Chris, that reminds me of when we first met, you know,

you attended a webinar I did for musicians about building financial

systems that behind their careers and how to reposition themselves.

You know, a lot of artists focus on how to earn money from the

music, but not how to manage and control the money once it comes in.

And that's a big, there's a big hole there, I think, in this industry.

And one of the things that I've been teaching musicians is how to

employ this financial strategy.

It's a way of life really, And using.

The right vehicle to create liquidity so that they can fund albums and

tours and gear without relying on banks and labels over time without,

you know, trying to balance out the ebb and flow of your career.

Right,

know, you're going up and down and, you know, when you work with artists who

start making money from gigs or merch,

what's the next step?

You know, it's, well, we're gonna spend it on this, that, or the other, but

how often do we set aside, do musicians set aside any of us right in life?

How do we set aside any excess we have for down the road for

long-term, a long-term perspective,

right.

you know?

Just how you manage all that money.

I've been working with a musician by the name of Harold Payne for 20 years,

and when I started working with him,

he, I started in August and in, in January it was like,

oh, to put tax stuff together.

I go, oh, but you use Quicken, right?

And he goes, I don't put everything on there.

And I was like, what?

So weeks, this is why musicians don't wanna do taxes

Yeah.

they don't think about it because it took me two weeks.

He kept every receipt.

I had to put all that together and then put it in the, put it in so we could

have a report and all that kind of stuff.

And so I said, listen, this is what we're gonna do.

gonna get a box and every receipt that you keep, or a drawer wherever you,

and just put it in there and at the end of the week, I'll take it out.

I'll put it into your Quicken so we have everything and I'll file stuff.

And he said, no, I need to learn.

I'm like, okay.

He doesn't even remember this so long ago.

And so for a year I stood on him and at the end of the week said,

okay, time to do the finances.

I'm like, what is that?

It's the phone.

Okay.

Put down the phone category.

Mm-hmm.

at the end of the year, I pushed the button and I pulled the box out.

I said, see this box?

He said, yeah.

He said, see this piece of paper?

He said, yeah.

I said, this is your taxes.

was like, what?

said, this is your taxes.

So now he walks in, hold on, let me put the deposit in.

Every single week, I, he sits on the program and I look at the bank and we

make sure we have everything in there.

Yeah.

You know, he wants to do it now and he should, you should wanna know where

your money is and that kinda stuff.

But when I talk to musicians about money or doing that, their

eyes roll back into their head.

Yeah.

it's really simple.

And they said, and if it's too difficult for you, get a bookkeeper that'll come

once a month to kinda do it for you.

And then they can to you, this is the income statement.

This is how much money you have, this is how much you spent, this is what's

left over, you know, kinda stuff.

And so, people, I mean.

I think they're just afraid they don't have enough money.

I don't know what the deal is, but they don't want to, don't wanna talk money.

People negotiating what they, you know what they're gonna do.

They did it the other day were, they were getting people in groups and

like talking to 'em about negotiating a price and stuff like that.

And I said, I just got a call the other day that a girl next week

once to play and so she started telling me about her group and stuff.

I'm like, oh my God, this is not gonna be easy.

And then she said oh yeah, just he can come and do his thing.

And I said, well, how long do you think he's gonna play?

She goes, oh, maybe about three hours.

I said, oh, that's not gonna happen.

Mm-hmm.

This is not gonna happen.

Right.

And I said, and do you have a budget?

Well, we're paying for it, but I'm sure he'll be fair.

And I said, I have to talk to him because

Yeah.

sounds like a nightmare of a situation.

Being with grade, eighth, eighth graders that are graduating and

their moms, and I'm like, eighth graders, they don't wanna listen

to, they don't wanna listen to that.

You know, because I'm so, I, today I have to talk to him

because he is in the studio.

I mean, he, he'll do it, but we gotta talk about money.

I mean, I gotta start high and see if she's willing to pay it or not,

because it's gonna be a lot of work

Yep.

of stuff.

Yep.

If she says no to our is it?

No.

know what?

What's the lowest we can go down to?

Right.

For the amount of work that he has to

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Negotiations is not, you just have to play with it

more

Yep.

else.

But you learn, you learn that the worst thing to do is to say,

oh, it's a thousand dollars.

And they say, okay.

You're like, shoot, I should ask for

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

Oh, I

But there's

afford,

you to know that,

right, right.

so when I'm, when I'm teaching my Getting Gigs class, I say, okay, if

you're gonna get a festival, this is about how much they play this.

know, this is what you can ask for.

If you're playing at a club and you can't bring, they want you

to bring 30 people to the door.

You have to understand how they make money.

They make money on the drinks.

So they need 30 people an hour to buy a beer.

if you don't bring 30 people in to buy a beer, they're not

gonna have you back again.

You have to understand how they're making money so you can make money too.

Right.

And so it, that's how you figure out, you know, to make money.

That's say, I said if there's something, they have a

sponsorship button, guess what?

you know, or they say, we, you don't have to advertise.

We have people coming all the time.

Mm-hmm.

they have money to pay you.

Mm-hmm.

So,

Mm-hmm.

just to, I know it's uncomfortable,

You know, don't low ball yourself,

Right, right.

And do what works for you.

Yeah.

know, if you're not gonna do it for that, then don't do it.

But sometimes you gotta take the hit a little bit to get somewhere too as

well, so don't be too loud about it.

songwriter that I've been working for two years, she

really wasn't playing that much.

And I said, okay girl, we need to start playing.

Mm-hmm.

let's look at your city.

Let's see if there's anything the city does.

Right?

So they had a couple of things that they did every year.

So she got accepted, solo artist went, did 45 minutes set and got paid $500.

She said, I've never gotten paid $500.

Yeah,

then she started doing some of this other gigs.

You pay like two hours for like $200.

She came out, she said, that was a lot of work for $200.

I said, you, you need to learn is that acceptable for you or not?

yeah.

that kinda stuff.

Right.

you need to learn to see if it is or not, because people are like, oh, you're

just coming in and singing for an hour.

But it takes you rehearsals and getting there.

And you know, and it's a lot.

It's a lot.

People don't like you're just coming in singing for an hour.

Yep.

How much money do you want?

Right.

of all, people are coming in to see me and you're making money.

That's what.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

It goes.

yeah.

I love it.

It's so true.

I mean, it's, it's know your worth,

Yes.

but also be humble about it as well, I think.

You know, but the artist I was talking about, he's a multi-platinum songwriter,

so people don't know, you know, I'm like, did you look at the website?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, oh, oh, that's what,

at the website first and

yes, that's right.

That's right.

kinda stuff.

So, and 'cause he would do anything for anybody.

I has to go through me.

'cause he will always low ball.

Just

I'll look on the calendar and go, what's this?

On the 14th.

Oh yeah.

They called me and I'm like, and I'm like, do you know where it is?

Do you know how much money they're paying?

Uhhuh.

Uhhuh,

It's like, oh well, we'll get those details later.

Oh no, we'll get them now.

yes.

Right.

Lemme do it.

Lemme

Right's, right?

kinda

That's right.

Well, Chris, as we kinda land this plane, I mean, we could obviously

talk for another hour, but tell me tell the listeners how they can

find you more information about you and what you're up to and.

Yeah.

So you can find me at Music Biz Mentors with the s on the end,

.com or@gmail.com, either one.

And I have a podcast called Making Money, Making Music that I have some stuff out.

I'm gonna be re relaunching a whole lot more.

It's interviews with musicians that do it for a living, and I let them just

tell their story because you think you're gonna be here, but then you end up there

and then, you know, where do they make their money and all that kinda stuff.

And I periodically do.

So if you get on the email list for me I'll let you know when I'm doing panel.

If I do a panel in person, I also do it online so you can see it.

and so I'll be doing a couple panels coming up, one on gigs,

one on how to place your songs and, you know, that kind of stuff.

And the kind of really, the basic kinda stuff.

And I'll do a webinar once in a while and stuff like that.

And in April I'll start I started doing some group coaching they would come with

me for one set for like a month, four or five weeks, day and time every week.

And two or three musicians in the room so we can work on

whatever their projects are,

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

then, they don't have to pay a lot of money, but, but they get a

jumpstart to do stuff, you know.

But one of the girls I'm doing, she meets with me every week for two, this

is our second year that we're working on.

We meet every week for an hour.

And she just pays a fee.

And then I work on stuff and she works on stuff.

'cause it's hard to do stuff by yourself.

it just, you can't get, accomplish everything, that kind of stuff.

So that's basically the outside kinda stuff that I do.

And then I'm teaching and stuff like that and I, I work with, so I do some coaching.

I have three or four people I coach all the time.

And then I have a couple artists that are, I manage right, so

I'm involved in everything

Great.

Great.

Well, we will put, uh, your link in the description for this podcast

so the viewers can go there and they can track you down that way.

You guys, it'll be headed on over to music biz, BIZ mentors.com.

And again, I'll put the link in the show notes and go from there.

But yeah, Chris, thanks thanks so much for sharing your experience and

giving musicians a practical way, a practical look at how they could

build momentum in their careers.

You know, I really appreciate it.

I think there's a pretty high chance we'll have you back on down the road.

We have we, you know, we, I'm always bummed.

Time flies by so fast, and I'm like, oh, people, you know,

we have good conversations.

I'm like, man, we could do easily put out three hours of content here, Alright, well

thing.

appreciate you being on and I know the listeners do too.

And you know, for everyone listening, the goal here is simple.

It's take what you heard today and apply one or two ideas this week.

You know, baby steps, right?

It's making money is step one.

Step two is having a system so that money actually builds your career instead of

disappearing between tours, for example.

And once you start generating an income with your music, the next

step really is learning how to keep control of that money so it

actually supports your career longer.

And if you'd like to explore that side of things, that's where I come in.

You call me and let's show you how you can also head on over to my website.

Grab a free copy of a Musician's Guide to Infinite Banking at 1024wealth.com/music.

And meanwhile, thanks for listening to Backstage Money.

Chris, thanks for being on and we will see you guys next time.

Thank you so much.