How to find joy again after divorce, loss, and major life changes—plus simple ways to rediscover yourself and create more joy every day.

What happens when the roles that once defined you suddenly disappear?

In this episode of Doing Divorce Different, Lesa Koski sits down with attorney, law professor, and author SC Perot to talk about how to find joy again when life looks nothing like you expected.

After her marriage ended and she stepped away from practicing law, SC found herself facing a profound identity shift. Long walks, a search for “good energy” music, and an unexpected love of Harry Styles became the beginning of something much bigger: a journey to understand what joy really is and how we can intentionally create more of it.

SC shares the powerful question that emerged during that season: Who am I when I strip away my roles, relationships, career, and accomplishments?

You'll also learn SC's four-part CAPS framework for joy: Cultivate, Adopt, Protect, and Spread. She explains how to notice your personal “joy profile,” why what brings you joy can change over time, and how noticing small moments of joy can train us to see more of them.

We also explore comparison and jealousy—especially on social media—and SC's beautiful concept of “borrowed views”: allowing someone else's happiness to add beauty to your life instead of seeing it as evidence of what you're missing.

If you're going through divorce, midlife change, grief, or simply wondering where you went in the middle of taking care of everyone else, this conversation is an invitation to start asking a different question:

What brings me joy now?

Because learning how to find joy again doesn't mean ignoring what's hard. It means remembering that hard things and beautiful things can exist at the same time.

Timestamps:

(00:00) Why we're talking about joy instead of divorce

(03:00) SC's divorce, career change, and identity shift

(07:00) Finding a new soundtrack for a new life

(11:00) The unexpected Harry Styles journey

(15:00) Who are you without your roles and accomplishments?

(20:00) Why movement and music can help during hard seasons

(25:00) Protecting the things that bring you joy

(30:00) Childlike joy vs. childish behavior

(34:00) The CAPS framework for finding joy

(38:00) Cultivate: discovering your personal “joy profile”

(43:00) Why what brings you joy can change

(48:00) Learning to notice joy when it appears

(52:00) Joy vs. forced gratitude

(57:00) Adopt: jealousy, comparison, and social media

(1:02:00) Finding “joy in the wild”

(1:07:00) The powerful idea of “borrowed views”

(1:12:00) Turning someone else's joy into joy for yourself

(1:17:00) Protecting your joy from judgment

(1:21:00) Spreading joy through generosity and kindness

(1:24:00) Finding joy even when you're going through something hard

Key Takeaways:

• Your identity is bigger than your roles. Divorce and major transitions can strip away familiar labels while creating an opportunity to rediscover who you are.
• Your “joy profile” can change. Something that brought you joy five years ago doesn't have to bring you joy today. Pay attention to what lights you up now.
• Notice joy in the wild. Sometimes we experience joy simply by witnessing someone else's happiness.
• Comparison doesn't have to steal your joy. SC's “borrowed views” concept offers another way to experience other people's happiness without making it mean something about your own life.
• Protect and spread joy. We can stop judging what brings ourselves and others happiness and intentionally add kindness, generosity, and light to the world.

Guest Bio:

SC Perot is an attorney, law professor, author, and speaker whose personal journey through divorce, career transition, and rediscovering joy inspired her book Styles of Joy. Her work explores how we cultivate, adopt, protect, and spread joy—and how paying attention to joy can change the way we experience even difficult seasons of life.

Resource Links:

Styles of Joy by SC Perot:

https://www.scperot.com/book/

OsteoStrong Minnesota:

https://osteostrongmn.com/affiliate-referral-koski/

Soberlink:

https://www.soberlink.com/prove-sobriety/family-law?utm_source=affiliatelink&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=lesa-koski-affiliatelink

Disclosure: These are affiliate links, which means I may receive a commission if you purchase through them, at no additional cost to you.

Tags/Keywords:

how to find joy again, finding joy after divorce, joy after divorce, divorce recovery, life after divorce, rediscover yourself after divorce, women and divorce, women over 40, midlife women, midlife transition, finding yourself after divorce, identity after divorce, healing after divorce, divorce mindset, joy and happiness, cultivating joy, comparison and jealousy, social media comparison, Styles of Joy, S.C. Perrault, Harry Styles, CAPS framework, Doing Divorce Different, Lesa Koski

Welcome back to Doing Divorce Different.

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I am really excited that you're all

here today because we are talking

3

about something different, not divorce.

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We're talking about joy, and

I am so thankful I have S.C.

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Perrault with me.

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She is an attorney, a law

professor, and an author, and the

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book she wrote is called Spells

of Joy, and we're gonna hear…

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It's a really interesting story.

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So we're gonna hear more

about what led her to do that.

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But if you know me, you know that

one of the big lessons that I learned

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in my life was how important joy is.

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And S.C.,

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I mean, I think it was something that

I did not really look at until late

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in life, and it is one of the best

things you can do for your body's

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health, your mental health, and

just, you know, the joy of living.

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So I'm so excited to dig into this.

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We're gonna get your story, your

authentic story, and then we're gonna

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just talk about, um, styles of joy,

which people will know what that's

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all about, and how joy's contagious.

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And then you have a four-question

fr- framework for finding joy,

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because I think a lot of us

sometimes forget what brings us joy.

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So anyway, SC, thank you for being here.

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Welcome.

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I'm so happy to be here.

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I say yes to any opportunity

to talk about joy.

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It is absolutely my favorite

subject, so thank you for having me.

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I'm so happy that you're here.

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Well, fill us in a little bit on your

story and what led you to writing the

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book and the work that you're doing.

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Absolutely.

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So it's a pretty interesting plot

twist- Mm-hmm … I think you could say.

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You know, I write in Styles of Joy that

divorce is statistically predictable.

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You know, about roughly 50% of

marriages end in divorce, so it's not

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that I never in a million years saw

that coming, although that's true.

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I mean, I never thought

it would happen to me.

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I think most people can relate to that.

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But what I really think is the

unusual plot twist that I didn't see

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coming is what unfolded in the months

following my separation and divorce.

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So I, before we get to the

fun part, I, I really wanna

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start kind of at the beginning.

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So I was practicing law.

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I was living in Austin, and

on paper everything was great.

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You know, I was married and finally had

this job I'd been working towards for

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so many years, and suddenly the pandemic

hit, and really everything fell apart.

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You know, I stopped practicing law.

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I got out of the wrong marriage,

and I no longer recognized the woman

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that looked back at me in the mirror.

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And, you know, I write in the book

that anyone who thinks divorce

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is about two people is mistaken.

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You know, I lost a whole bonus

family, a whole group of friends.

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I was no longer so-and-so's neighbor.

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I was no longer a lawyer.

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I wasn't a daughter-in-law.

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I wasn't an aunt.

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You know, all these, all these things

were happening at once, and there was

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such a significant amount of identity

shifting and stripping and- I was

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processing everything I was going through

by going on these long walks around

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the lake in downtown Austin, Texas.

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And that's really where the happy

part of the story begins, the

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joyful part I guess you could say.

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And one day, you know, I was going

on yet another three and a half mile

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long walk or whatever it was, and I

typed good energy in on Spotify as a

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cry for help of sorts because I needed

good energy and happy music in a

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way, you know, I, I really never had.

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And I had never turned to happy

music as a tool in the way that I

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was doing so in that era of my life.

67

And, you know, I had never listened

to Harry Styles, and suddenly I'm

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listening to this good energy music

on Spotify, and Harry Styles' third

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album, Harry's House, came out two

days after I told my then husband that

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divorce was the path that we were on.

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And his new music was sprinkled

all throughout this playlist.

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And suddenly I'm like, "Wait a second,"

like, "I think I love Harry Styles."

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Like, this music is, it's getting

me out of this funk, you know?

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And I, and all of a sudden, you know, I'm

thinking, "What else does this guy have?"

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You know, I'm a little too,

too old, I use that loosely.

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I, too old for the One Direction days.

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You know, you say boy bands, and I am

of the Backstreet and NSYNC vintage,

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not really the One Direction era.

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And so then all of a sudden I had

these unopened Christmas presents that

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were his albums I'd never listened to.

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And one thing, Lisa, that I don't

say in the book specifically

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is music is a lot like scent.

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You know, it carries me- memories

and it can be such a time capsule.

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You know, you say freshman

year of college, I say Miley

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Cyrus Party in the USA, right?

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But the thing about this new music is

I had no memories attached to it And

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it's like I was subconsciously looking

for a new soundtrack for this brand-new

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life that I was building brick by brick.

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And as you would read in Styles of

Joy, things escalated, and I saw his

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show 17 times in five countries, and

I traveled with strangers I met along

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the way, and I had a full-blown Harry

Styles-themed Eat Pray Love adventure.

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And but most notably, I

started getting really curious

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about joy for the first time.

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You know, what is joy?

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Who has it?

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Who doesn't have it?

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Is joy big?

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Is joy small?

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Is it permanent?

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Is it fleeting?

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And being in these rooms full of

people, particularly post-pandemic,

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who were singing and dancing together

in this complicated day and age

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felt like some kind of miracle,

and it really was inspiring me.

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And the book resulted,

and here we are now.

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That is so crazy, and

there's so much there.

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You know, when I think through, um,

what you went through, and I just

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know like myself, if you're someone

who goes to law school, you're

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probably pretty wired pretty tight.

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You know what I mean?

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Driven.

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Yeah.

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And that's how I was.

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And so I'm thinking about you.

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So COVID hits, and you're no longer…

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You're getting divorced, and you're

no longer practicing law, correct?

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Mm-hmm.

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I mean, do you feel like that was kind

of in a weird way like rock bottom?

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Well, I use that term loosely

'cause everyone has different

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versions of rock bottom.

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Yeah.

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And there are certain things that

preceded the separation that I'd

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say were worse than, you know, the

grief following the separation.

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But yes, I mean, it's like the rug

got pulled out from beneath me.

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Yes.

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And, and truly, to navigate the

career change while all this was

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happening in my personal life- Yeah

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you know, it was, it was

like, good night, you know?

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And I say that divorce is like when your

whole life is put into like a sieve or a

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strainer and everything is shaken around.

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Mm-hmm.

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And some things fall out.

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But even at the elements of your

life that remain, everything's

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been jumbled in some kind of way.

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And I think one thing no one warned

me about, and I don't know why this

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is specifically on my heart to talk

about right now, but I think no one

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warned me the impact that divorce

has on all your relationships, even

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the ones that are remaining and even

the ones that are still so strong.

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Whether it's friends or family- Yeah

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whatever that source of community may be.

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You know, it's like all your relationships

become defined by that same dark cloud.

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Everyone's like, "How are you?

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How are you?

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Are you doing okay?

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How are you?"

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And then to be anonymous in a crowd

where I'm just another concertgoer-

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Mm-hmm … and I could just have

fun and be kind and make friends

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with people I met along the way.

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I wasn't the girl that did or

did not stop practicing law.

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I wasn't the girl who- Right … was

or was not going through a divorce.

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I could just ask myself this really

fundamental question, which I think

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is a really big part of this story

that I think only comes through if

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you're reading the book really closely.

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Which is in this season of identity

stripping, of I'm not any of these

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roles anymore, it's kinda like

being anonymous in a crowd gave

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me the courage to go further.

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Mm-hmm.

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Of who am I in any and every room I

walk into with absolutely no context?

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Mm-hmm.

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And that became one of the most powerful

questions of that season of life,

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is really who am I in any and every

context, regardless of my proximity to

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someone, my relationship to someone,

my job, my career, this or that.

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And that was one of the most

profound personal development

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experiences I've ever had.

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And did more for my confidence of, hey,

put the resume in the shredder- Yeah

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… and who are you without any of that?

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And it made me reflect on what do

I really value any, any time I show

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up in any room, and it was a really

cathartic and grounding experience.

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That is so deep.

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That hits me in my guts.

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Because you think about

that we are not our roles.

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We are not our careers.

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So, so interesting that you would really

go, it's really hard to know, right?

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Who am I?

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I love the fact too that you walked,

because I always talk, uh, um, to

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women when they're going through

divorce or something hard Sometimes

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you just have to move your body.

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Sometimes that's all you can do

because you can't really coach

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your brain out of the mindset.

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But I love how you brought music in.

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That wasn't something that I thought of

because I walked and walked and walked.

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And now, like, I'll look on Spotify

for that happy mix, you know?

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To help me change my mindset.

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But I love this, and I wanna

hear a little bit more about…

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It had to be a little bit…

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Was it at all difficult?

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Like, what did your mama and your

dad say when you're like, "I'm

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following Harry Styles" You know?

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I'm like, I'm taking…

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How many months?

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It was about 10 months.

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10 months.

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Over the course of 10 months.

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Yeah.

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So, so what w- was that hard?

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Was it hard to kinda let…

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'Cause like even though you were

ready to let go of that and find

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who you were, sometimes it still

pulls back at you, doesn't it?

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I don't know.

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Does it?

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Well, it certainly came in an

unconventional package, this process.

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Definitely.

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I mean, I, I, I would not even consider

myself a concert person before this.

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And I certainly was not

a big fan of crowds.

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And so people who knew me were

like, "What's with the feather boa?"

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Like, "You were a corporate lawyer."

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Like- … "You…

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Have you lost it?"

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And you know what's fun, Lisa, is

the third part of the book, and I

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know we're gonna get more into it

in a minute, but the third part of

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the book is all about protecting

your joy and other people's joy.

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And it's centered around this idea

of if something is not harming

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you or anyone else, get after it.

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Right.

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You know?

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So often joy doesn't show up, and

so we need to learn how to protect

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it when it does, not just in our own

lives, but in other people's lives.

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And so I'm so grateful for the heat

that I was getting because it really

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reframed it for me, and I think that

was such a formative experience,

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to be getting so much judgment.

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And not necessarily from my family.

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I'd say more so from

friends and acquaintances.

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Mm-hmm.

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But with regard to what my

parents thought, they…

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We're all pretty adventurous.

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Okay.

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I, I…

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And so I, I don't…

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They were never worried about me.

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I think they were kinda like, "Okay.

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That's…

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Whatever.

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That is fine."

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Um, but it is interesting because when

I started writing the book, I really

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thought it was gonna be an article.

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And I had gotten a message from a friend

I went to high school with, and she

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actually used to work at Rolling Stone.

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And she said, "Hey, what

concert count is this?"

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You know, "Have you thought

about writing this all down?

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It would make for a really

interesting article."

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And I had not considered

writing it down at all.

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I wasn't doing this to write a book.

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I was doing this just for myself.

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And you know, I'd been through

a lot of low lows, so what if I

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needed some high highs, you know?

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And I- I thought, "Well,

that's such a cool idea.

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Like, wouldn't that be amazing

if this were an article?"

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That was as far as my little brain- Mm-hmm

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my human brain could stretch.

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And I was with my parents on a trip, and I

was carrying around, just by coincidence,

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a compilation of the most famous New York

Times Modern Love articles- Mm-hmm … in

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a, in a book form, and a notebook.

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And I had just those two things

sandwiched, and I was just, like, walking

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around our vacation with these two things.

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And I said to my mom, I was like, "Well,

you know, what if this were an article?"

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And she said, "Well, look

what else is in your hand.

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Like, why not Modern

Love for New York Times?"

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And so that's really where the idea

started, and I started writing, you know,

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what's now chapter one, was just gonna

be an article about the whole story.

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And I, I got the courage to … And

this, I love telling this story, so

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thanks for asking how my parents reacted.

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But I, I was so nervous

to read it to my mom.

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I, I never considered myself a writer.

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I was not You know, I, I

gravitated more towards writing.

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Of course, I went to law school- Mm-hmm

… over, God forbid, math, you know?

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No, thank you.

266

Um, and I didn't wanna look up and

see my mom's reaction when I read

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what's now chapter one to her.

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But it was the sweetest moment, because

I looked up and she just had tears in

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her eyes and, and she just said, "You

know, I was never worried about you,

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but I just, I don't think I understood

what exactly this was doing for you."

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She was like, "Thank you so

much for articulating that,

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because now I really understand."

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And it was just this really beautiful

moment, and she was such a cheerleader to

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encourage me to keep going, and I don't

think any of us saw this happening, um,

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that it would actually turn into a book

and I'd meet the right people at the

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right time to make that dream happen.

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And, you know, it's, it

has been surreal, Lisa.

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I mean, it's been years now,

and every time I tell this

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story I'm like, "Who's talking?

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She sounds like me, but

surely that can't be."

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I love it.

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I love it, and it's funny because

I think that I could be someone

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that would jump on, "Okay, well,

I'm gonna do this and write a book

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about it because this is my ni…"

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You know what I mean?

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That gives it, like, some kind of

substance as to why I'm doing it.

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It makes sense.

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Like, you could, you know, tell your

friend, "Well, this is why I'm doing it."

289

Mm-hmm.

290

But I love how you, you were talking

about joy and the boa, right?

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And I love it because you kind of

explain it, and when you explained

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it, it's like joy is, it's pure.

293

It's childlike.

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Mm-hmm.

295

It's not icky.

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It's not judgmental.

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It's pure, like a little, like w-

like we had when we were children.

298

Mm-hmm.

299

Which kinda, like, brings me to

this how do we find that again?

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And I, and I know, like,

I've struggled with it.

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Like, I, I kinda look back to what

did I like as a kid, you know?

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I still have horses.

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I just spent hours braiding the entire

mane of my horse yesterday bit by bit

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'cause I'm like, "I do like it," you know?

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It's fun.

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It brings me joy.

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So how do we find it?

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How do we find joy again?

309

Well, you bring up two really good points.

310

The first being, you know, there's a

difference between childish and childlike.

311

I think so many times people look

at what brings someone joy and

312

they think, "Oh, that's childish."

313

And I like to push back and

say, "Or is it childlike?"

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Mm-hmm.

315

Which is the gold standard

of the purest form of joy.

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You know, and I think I look at something

like creating friendship bracelets for a

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concert or put- handing out stickers at

a Harry Styles show, which I always do.

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Or I'm a sticker machine, okay?

319

You can see behind me in the video.

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And I bring about 500 to every

concert I go to just to spread joy.

321

And I just think, you know, again,

it's not childish, it's childlike.

322

Mm-hmm.

323

And that is such a beautiful distinction.

324

But your big question of what brings

you joy and how can you tap back

325

into that kinda takes me to the

first part of the four-part framework

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of the book, which is cultivate.

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It, the, the four parts are C-A-P-S,

cultivate, adopt, protect, and spread.

328

So part one of the book, cultivating

joy in your own life, is centered

329

around this seemingly simple

question of what brings you joy.

330

Mm-hmm.

331

And when I first got so curious about

this subject, I find that, I found that

332

people would look at me and say, "I

don't know what brings me joy anymore.

333

I don't know what I love."

334

And I used to think, "Wow,

that's so depressing."

335

Just kidding.

336

No, I used- Wow, sad.

337

Um, no.

338

But, uh, the more I thought about

it, I realized that's actually not

339

just okay, it's a beautiful thing.

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Because our joy profile, which

is our composite portrait of what

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brings all of us joy, which is unique

to us, it's like a fingerprint,

342

it shifts and changes over time.

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You know, I write in the book that

if our joy profile didn't shift and

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change, I'd still be wearing that

Barney the Dinosaur T-shirt I was

345

obsessed with when I was four years old.

346

And now, Lisa, I wear

Harry Styles T-shirts.

347

But I just think it's exciting to reengage

with our joy, and I, I wouldn't say that

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theme of your joy profile shifting and

changing over time, I wouldn't say it's a

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dominant part of the public speaking I do.

350

I wouldn't say it's that

dominant of a theme in the book.

351

But I did a, a talk several months

ago, and this, this- This person

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waited in line a really long time.

353

It was a, a campus talk at Vanderbilt

University where I am teaching.

354

And this boy came up to me and he

said, "I just want you to know I really

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needed that message 'cause I had to…

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that it's okay for my joy

profile to shift and change."

357

He goes, "Because I had to take some time

off from school because I was battling

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cancer, and now that I'm healthy and

now that I'm back, I'm finding that all

359

the things that carried me through that

chapter, the music I listened to during

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chemo, the TV shows, the, even the sports

teams, you know, all those things I

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clung to so intensely," he's like, "They

don't bring me joy anymore because it

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reminds me of that difficult chapter.

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And I'm just- Mm-hmm … feeling

a little lost."

364

And he said, "So thanks for giving me

permission that it's okay for things

365

to change over time and I can let go of

things that aren't serving me anymore."

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And it was so moving to me because I

had never thought about this concept

367

in his context, but it just underscores

that, you know, not only is it okay

368

for these things to change, it's a cool

invitation every day to pay attention

369

to what's bringing you joy today.

370

It doesn't have to be the same

tomorrow, and it doesn't have to

371

be the same as yesterday, but it's

an exciting, you know, lens through

372

which we can look at every single day.

373

So for, kind of what I'm hearing

you say is to be aware of it.

374

So when you feel joy Be aware

of it and look at it and say,

375

"So what is this right now?"

376

Clock it.

377

Is that what it is?

378

Yeah, clock it when it does show up.

379

And I encourage people to make a long

list of things that bring them joy.

380

It could be your favorite flowers,

songs, types of trees, your favorite

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ice cream flavor, conversations with,

you know, insert favorite person

382

in the world on the phone, a good

sunset, really whatever it may be.

383

And I have found that this exercise

is so wonderful because, you know,

384

I'll use a ginkgo tree as an example.

385

There's a gink- I actually have a copy.

386

Look right here.

387

There's a ginkgo leaf right here.

388

Yeah.

389

And one of my friends said, "Why

do you have a random piece of

390

spinach on your book cover?"

391

It's not spinach, Jeannie.

392

But- … this beautiful green

leaf is a ginkgo tree, and

393

it's my absolute favorite.

394

And when I did this free write exercise

of what brings me joy, you know,

395

it's Australian shepherds and an iced

Americano and all the, and a ginkgo tree.

396

Suddenly when I saw a ginkgo tree,

even though I always knew that

397

was something that brought me joy,

something clicked differently.

398

Mm-hmm.

399

I just thought, "Wait a second,

that's one of my things.

400

There it is"- Mm-hmm … in a way

that was so different because I

401

had this awareness of, oh, yeah,

yeah, that's in my joy profile.

402

And it's so, it adds an extra little

exclamation point on different

403

things I'm experiencing when I

realize, oh, right, yeah, that's

404

one of my things, and here it is.

405

What a great gift.

406

Well, I love that because you're

choosing to focus on the positive.

407

You know, like, how they say, like,

if you think about a certain car

408

and you might, and then all of a

sudden you see all kinds of them?

409

Yes.

410

What a great way to, to do this.

411

Yeah.

412

It's the Toyota Camry effect of- Yeah.

413

I love that.

414

Okay.

415

So that is how you cultivate your joy.

416

You become aware of what makes you joyful.

417

Is it, is there a flip side to also being

like, "Ooh, that doesn't bring me joy"?

418

You know what?

419

I think so, but I find that kinda being

in this abundance mindset where- Gotcha

420

… there's so much beauty and joy around and,

you know, I try to divert my attention as

421

much as I can to what does bring me joy.

422

But I, I will say you bring up a good

point I think joy is really misunderstood

423

because people think, "Oh, it's just

sunshine and rainbows, and you're just

424

dancing down the street all the time."

425

It's really not that.

426

Mm-hmm.

427

It's saying, no, I'm taking a full

360 degree view of what's going on,

428

which is why I'm adding joy and l-

love and light into the mix- Yeah

429

as well.

430

You know, I think bad news

gets delivered to our doorstep

431

like a crappy pizza every day.

432

Mm-hmm.

433

It really does.

434

It's like, okay- Mm-hmm … the news

and, you know, whatever it may be.

435

Yeah.

436

And so how are we gonna add joy and

love and positivity into the mix too?

437

Yeah.

438

And I think there is a lot in our control.

439

Um, there's a lot that's not,

but there's a lot that is.

440

Mm-hmm.

441

Yeah, I feel like, I feel like adding

that to my day in addition to being

442

grateful- Mm-hmm … I mean, hey, you

know, you're gonna really be spending a

443

lot of time focusing on that good stuff.

444

And we know the bad stuff is

there, but it's nice to focus

445

on that and to feel that.

446

You know, I have an interesting, I

have sort of a hot take on gratitude.

447

I actually think gratitude

can be really overwhelming.

448

I think I hear from a lot of people

that they're, they're sort of always

449

feeling forced to find a silver lining

in a situation- Hmm … by these

450

two words, and I write about this in

the book, these two words, at least.

451

Mm-hmm.

452

You know?

453

It's like, "Okay, I sprained my ankle."

454

"At least you didn't break it."

455

It's kinda like-

Right … "Yeah, all right.

456

Like, I, I hear you, but I,

I'm also limping around in

457

a lot of pain," you know?

458

Yeah.

459

And growing up, my sister and I would

always make fun of our mom because

460

we would be like, "Our feet hurt."

461

"Well, at least you have feet."

462

And we're like- Right … "Cool.

463

Like, that'll shut an

eight-year-old right up."

464

Geez.

465

And so it's turned into an inside

joke with me and my sister.

466

Like, "I have a headache."

467

And it'll be like, "At least

you have a head," you know?

468

But, but this pressure to feel gratitude

and nothing else, I think can be…

469

There's just a lot of pressure-

Yeah … soci- in a society, I

470

think, to just feel gratitude.

471

And that's why I love joy, is

one of the definitions I have

472

for joy is guiltless gratitude.

473

I love that.

474

Because anything that brings me

joy is something I'm grateful for.

475

I, that's what I was just thinking.

476

They're kinda tied together.

477

They are.

478

Without this doom scroll of-

Right … and I'm gra- and I'm

479

grateful the elevators are working

in my apartment building today.

480

How far am I- … supposed to go?

481

Ah.

482

You know?

483

I'm, I'm, I'm grateful- Yeah … you

know, uh, this other- Yeah … yeah, I'm

484

grateful I've never been eaten by a shark.

485

I mean, where am I supposed to stop?

486

You know?

487

Yeah, yeah.

488

Rather than, you know, versus thinking

about joy as something that feels

489

really free-flowing and- Mm-hmm … and

guiltless, that does similar work.

490

I totally am following you there.

491

Okay, let's talk about

the next one, adopt.

492

You cultivate it, you adapt- a- adopt it.

493

Is that what it was?

494

Adopt.

495

Okay.

496

Yes.

497

So part two of the book is on adopting

other people's joy as your own, and

498

the theme in this book is, in this

section of the book, is the opposite

499

of joyful is not joyless, it's jealous.

500

I think with social media, we have

a 24-hour access- Yeah … to other

501

people's highlight reels, and we're

comparing them to our realities.

502

And it's just prime time for

insidious envy to creep in.

503

And I really think jealousy

is such a joy robber.

504

Yeah.

505

And I think, you know, C.S.

506

Lewis writes that comparison

is the thief of joy.

507

Mm-hmm.

508

And we need to watch

out for our joy robbers.

509

You know, you hinted at that earlier.

510

What about knowing of things

that don't bring you joy?

511

Right.

512

I think we need to watch, you

know, the arrows pointed at our

513

joy balloons, and what's, what's

maybe gonna pop our joy balloons.

514

We gotta keep an eye out for 'em.

515

And I think jealousy is, is an

underrated one in terms of its,

516

its power to rob us of joy.

517

And- Okay, so can I jump in?

518

So let me just…

519

And maybe you're getting to this.

520

So okay, so I'm scrolling through

Instagram, and I see this gal who's

521

always, like, showing her body, right?

522

And I'm like, "Ugh."

523

And I suppose it's a little bit of envy.

524

I don't know, right?

525

And so to adopt her joy

526

Help me.

527

Help me adopt her joy So, I would

say joy adoption takes two forms.

528

So the first, before I get to

the Instagram example- Okay.

529

The first, I would say, is

looking for joy in the wild.

530

So what that means is how can

you look for joy out and about

531

that has nothing to do with you?

532

Okay Something unexpected

that plops in your path.

533

And the example I use in the book

is a story about sitting in a coffee

534

shop when I was writing the book,

and I see this father-daughter duo

535

on a Sunday morning coffee date.

536

And this little girl's, like, I

don't know, four or five, and she's

537

eating this blueberry muffin, Lisa.

538

Like, it's like the greatest

thing that's ever happened to her.

539

Like, her little hands- … are

stretched in the air and crumbs are

540

flying, and she i- is just blissed

out because this blueberry muffin.

541

And then I look at her dad, and he's

just shaking his head, and he starts

542

laughing, and then I start laughing.

543

And I, as I'm sitting there writing

about joy, I thought, "Well,

544

there it is, joy in the wild."

545

Yep.

546

You know, it started as hers, and

then it was his, and then it was mine

547

all the way- Mm … across the room.

548

Love it.

549

And looking for joy in the wild

is unbelievably s- it's so much

550

fun, and it's so infectious.

551

And, like, don't get me

started on joy in the wild.

552

I could, I could talk

your ear off about it.

553

But the more complicated form of

adopting others' joy as your own

554

is, is more the Instagram- Mm-hmm

… anecdote that you, you volunteered.

555

So go with me.

556

This is slightly a tangent, but

I promise it's, it's related.

557

So I took this class in college,

and it was on East, ancient East

558

Asian gardens and architecture.

559

It was one of the hardest classes I took.

560

I was like, "What, uh,

what am I doing here?

561

This is, like, totally kicking my butt."

562

And I remember this principle

called shakkei, which in Japanese

563

translates to borrowed views.

564

So what it means is if you're designing

a garden or designing a backyard,

565

you wanna maximize the beauty that

you can get from surrounding gardens.

566

Mm-hmm.

567

So for example, let's go back to

my ginkgo tree, my very favorite.

568

Mm-hmm.

569

If someone has a gorgeous yellow ginkgo

tree planted on the other side of

570

your fence line, it's not your tree,

but you're not gonna wanna block it.

571

Mm-hmm.

572

Because when you're in your garden,

you can borrow that view, and you can

573

experience the beauty of something

happening on the other side- Mm-hmm

574

of the fence line.

575

And only when I was at my lowest points

in divorce did that class pop into my head

576

years later, and I kind of was like…

577

It was like, ding-dong,

ancient East Asian gardens and

578

architecture has a message for you.

579

And I'm like, literally- … so random.

580

And, and it was like when I was

opening holiday cards for the very

581

first time after the separation,

and I thought, "Wow, this is really

582

prime time for envy to creep in."

583

And then I thought back to that

principle, and I thought, "Wait a second.

584

This has nothing to do with my garden.

585

I just get to experience the beauty

of borrowing these views from, from

586

where I'm standing even though, you

know, these are not my happy family."

587

You know, it was the, the wedding photos

and the, and the, and the babies and

588

the, all the beautiful, wonderful things,

these physical reminders of what I

589

didn't have just right here in my hands.

590

And I just thought, "Well, what

would it look like for me to

591

borrow these beautiful views?"

592

And at the time, it felt

like my garden was a mud pit.

593

You know, I had unearthed

pretty much everything.

594

And as I write in the book, I didn't even

know what seeds I wanted to plant next.

595

Mm-hmm.

596

And I just remember feeling

like I had a fork in the road.

597

You know, do I let this beauty spill

over and be part of my life, or do

598

I- poison it with, with jealousy.

599

So I wanna be mindful.

600

This is not, um, just saying,

"Be happy for other people."

601

If someone would've said that to me, I'd

be like, "Respectfully, there's the door.

602

I don't-" Right … right now.

603

It's actually even bolder than that.

604

It's, "I'm not just happy for you,

I'm happy for me that I get to be

605

in this proximity to your joy."

606

Now, do I follow my own advice

with this all the time, Lisa?

607

No, absolutely not.

608

Sometimes I'm like, "I'm feeling jealous.

609

I have clocked that this is jealousy,

and I'm gonna take the jealous

610

path today because I feel-" I know.

611

All feelings are valid

feelings, and I'm only human.

612

But what I can tell you is I've

never once regretted remembering

613

that that fork-in-the-road thinking

really is- Mm-hmm … an option.

614

Mm-hmm.

615

And it gives me a sense of agency in

something I otherwise feel powerless over.

616

Yep.

617

Okay.

618

So in my scenario, I can say,

"Wow, isn't it amazing that women

619

my age can look so beautiful?"

620

Something like that?

621

Yeah.

622

Absolutely.

623

And also, "Oh, yeah, that's right,

that has nothing to do with me."

624

That's a classic.

625

That helps me all the time, you know?

626

Ah.

627

Like, oh, her success, her p-

Awesome insert whatever it is.

628

Um, let's say I'm really

insecure about my eyebrows.

629

When I'm looking around Instagram,

all I'm gonna see is eyebrows.

630

Right.

631

That's … The lips, right?

632

Yeah.

633

It's … You remember, or at least I try

to remember, I'm like, "Oh, that's right.

634

That person's eyebrows."

635

You know, insert whatever thing.

636

It has nothing to do with my eyebrows.

637

Right.

638

Nothing to do with my eyebrows.

639

Right.

640

Right.

641

I love that.

642

Okay.

643

All right, my dear.

644

I'm looking, our time is clicking.

645

I'm gonna have to have you back

on, I think- I'd love it … 'cause

646

I love this topic of joy.

647

But can you tell me just briefly

how we protect it and spread it?

648

Absolutely.

649

So the theme in part three is the opposite

of joyful is not joyless, it's judgmental.

650

Mm.

651

And part three is called Be Gentler

with Not Just Other People, with

652

how joy shows up for them, but also

how to be gentler with ourselves.

653

I find that people say all the

time, "I know it's really weird,

654

but insert thing brings me joy."

655

And I'm like- Right … "Okay, I

don't know where we're getting these

656

narratives that it's weird to garden

or play golf or crochet, whatever.

657

You do you."

658

Right.

659

And then part four is all about how

we wake up every single day with

660

this boundless capacity to put love

and light and joy into the world.

661

It's a reminder that joyful and

generous living is always an option.

662

And the dedication page of the book

says, "For tiny angels everywhere."

663

And that's the phrase I use for people

who do random acts of kindness with

664

no incentive or expected return or

expected kickback, but people who

665

are committed to living generously

with, with no ulterior motive.

666

And I think that's uniquely inspiring.

667

And if you need some feel-good stories

for, and reminders of how people are

668

wonderful and good, then part four

of the book is certainly for you.

669

I love that.

670

And here's the thing, I think there

was a Friends episode about this.

671

It's really hard to do something

and not get something out of it.

672

Right.

673

I mean, you smile at somebody and they

smile back, that's getting something.

674

You know what I mean?

675

It's just … It's a, it's a great

way to look at it, but to spread

676

that joy, um, I love that and I

think it's a great place to end.

677

And I think especially like for,

for my friends who are listening who

678

are going through something really

hard, um, to know that they can

679

still, they can still look for this.

680

They can notice it in their surroundings.

681

If they can't quite feel it inside

themselves, maybe they can borrow

682

it from someone else for a while.

683

When you look for joy in the

wild, it won't disappoint.

684

I love that.

685

Joy in the wild.

686

All right.

687

SC, I am so thankful that you were

here and spent the time, and I will

688

be knocking on your door again.

689

And, um, I think you've got a

podcast coming, so maybe we can talk

690

about that next time you come on.

691

I'd love it.

692

All right.

693

Thank you for having me.

694

Awesome.

695

Thanks so much.