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E57 - Redefining Creativity: AI’s Impact on Music, Marketing, and Human Connection with Daniel Bedingfield and Fernando Garibay
Episode 5721st June 2024 • Creatives With AI • Futurehand Media
00:00:00 01:00:23

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In this enlightening episode of Creatives WithAI, we venture into the heart of how AI is reshaping the creative landscape.

From the nuances of music production to the intricacies of digital marketing, discover the broader implications of AI on human connection and creativity.

Meet Our Guests: Daniel Bedingfield and Fernando Garibay

Join us for an exclusive conversation with two luminaries in the music industry: Daniel Bedingfield, the chart-topping singer-songwriter, and Fernando Garibay, the Grammy-winning producer behind some of the music industry’s biggest artists. These creative powerhouses share their unique perspectives on the seismic shifts AI is causing in their fields.

🎧 What You'll Learn in This Episode:

  • AI's Transformative Role in Music: Explore how AI is revolutionising music production and the creation process. Daniel and Fernando offer firsthand accounts of their experiences with AI in the studio, revealing both the challenges and the groundbreaking opportunities it presents.
  • Evolution of Genres and Music Engagement: Dive into the future of music engagement and the evolution of genres. Our guests reflect on how AI influences listening habits, genre-blending, and the quest for self-awareness in an era of excessive dopamine stimulation.
  • AI in Digital Marketing: Understand how AI is redefining digital marketing strategies, enabling more personalised and effective campaigns. Learn about the tools and techniques that are setting new standards in the industry.
  • Human Connection and AI: Examine AI's potential to enhance relationships and foster deeper human connections. We discuss how AI can support artists in their creative journeys and transform them into thought leaders in this new era.
  • The Future of Creativity: Contemplate the broader implications of AI on creativity and what it means for artists today. Daniel and Fernando provide insights into how creatives can redefine their value and thrive amidst the rapid technological changes.

🔊 Why You Should Tune In:

This episode is more than just a discussion; it's a journey into the profound influence of AI on our lives. Whether you're an artist, a marketer or simply curious about the future, you'll gain valuable insights and inspiration from these compelling guests.

Don't miss this chance to explore the intersection of AI and creativity with two of the industry's most innovative minds. Tune in for an enriching journey into AI's profound influence on our lives and discover how creatives can redefine their value and thrive amidst rapid change.

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Thanks for listening, and stay curious!



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Riverside FM - Our remote recording platform

Music Radio Creative - Our voiceover and audio engineering partner

Podcastpage - Podcast website hosting where we got started


00:01 - David Brown (Host)**

Well, thank you very much for at least taking a minute to have a chat with me.

Obviously, my podcast is Creatives WithAI, and I have a whole podcast network, actually, where we talk about the impact that AI is having on different industries. But I started off in the beginning just to give you a little bit of background because I work in a creative space, and when ChatGPT started to become really popular early last year, I noticed that some of the copywriters and people that worked in our office were already losing work. Then, oh yeah, it was a year ago. One lady lost all of her business. You know, just from people saying, oh well, I don't need freelancers any more, and that really got me thinking because I'd worked in sort of advertising and digital marketing in the past, and I was really concerned about where this is going to go. So I've always wanted to talk to. I've talked to some DJs who've been in the business for a long time, but an actual musician who's still involved in the industry and stuff at your level. I think it's really interesting to get your thoughts on how you think this might play out over time.

01:05 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Okay, well, I read an ex-article um by the web designer from Halo, which is the bungee, um bungee, which is the Halo games, right, and he said that he's been creating the website for six years and now the machine can replace it can just replicate everything he's done because it was trained on that website and he's out of a job. And he said all his friends just lost their jobs three weeks ago. Right, so it's coming yeah, it's, it's.

01:31 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I'm empathetic, and this is what I do struggle with. I see the gift of being a creator, and when you have honed the skills of creativity, you get to be blessed with vision. And the more you work at creativity as a skill is what I teach. It's actual skill, human skill and synthetic skill. And the human skill of creativity, well, the more you work at it, the more vision you get, and those visions over time become clear. And so that's the foresight that we have.


It's no accident why we make hit records or, hit music or hit content because we can predict what the audience will want to feel, hear or experience with a high degree of accuracy. Our only hurdle has been, historically, distribution right, either capital power or distribution power, a combination of both. And when I so my pragmatic side says, the philosophical side tells me that this happens in nature right, where, you know, the thunder hits a forest and it burns and it starts over, it replenishes the soil and a new season of growth happens. But that's my philosophical side. My heart side is like, wow, it's going to get really challenging, really quick for a lot of people, as this hits home, knowing what our friends are going to experience, who are in every industry.

03:06 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

So Udio came out with an audio-to-audio feature. Check out Udio if you have it. Last week, I input a melody that I'd recorded with some music to it, and it created the rest of the song in drum and bass. I changed the tempo, and it made way better drum and bass than I could have possibly made. And I panicked, and I was excited and almost vomiting with terror and excitement because all I could imagine is so.


I called my best friend, and I said we need to pivot here because our job as composers is done; our job as writers and producers is done unless we pivot. We have to pivot now because we've got about a two-year window, and everyone in the next two years that distinguishes themselves as thought leaders in the in the area of AI music has a shot before the gap closes over with a flood, a flood of music, and it's an excellent flood of excellent music, unlike the 200, 000 songs released to Spotify every day, which are total trash, most of them. Yeah, so, um, when I called her and explained this to her, she was so resistant. She was an ego. It was an ego attack. Her identity was crushed forever.


If this was true, so it can't be true, that's. It can't be true, right? So I'm valuable because I'm, I'm this because their whole ego is formed that way, and so it completely fell on deaf ears, and I took, got off the phone, and I've been crying for a week because I'm just imagining the 10 000, 60 000 musicians in the world who, with either will have to pivot in order to distinguish themselves quickly or will never pivot and possibly I just I feel suicide's coming, I feel mental breakdowns coming.

04:49 - David Brown (Host)

Wow, and it's heavy in my heart, but there is an option when you say pivot in this and say maybe that's where you're going when you say pivot, but where do you pivot?

04:57 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

To do this, I want to throw it to Fernando: if we can redefine our ego, if we can move our ego not to output, but maybe something more like social. Fernando loves me, and I love him. We have a great relationship. Ok, I can cook well, you know, smaller things that perhaps we can gain our value from other than the highest and the most creative output that we've ever done, the most success we've ever had. Perhaps we have a chance. Maybe we'll all have to start doing ayahuasca, or we can read the book A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. But it's right to you.

05:29 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I played around with a few In:


So, let's break that down for some practice. For a second. So, humans defined the world through narrative. We have 11, 12 hierarchical cortical structures, always discerning a story, and it's the way. There's a couple advantages to this evolutionary speaking Sstory helps us, creates a sticky delivery mechanism for information, right? So, a prefrontal cortex is discerning a separate story from your primordial brain, and your amygdala is discerning a separate story from your auditory and visual cortex. So these are all different stories that get reassembled theoretically as you sleep, right, it converged into your existence, right, and there's many theories. And then I'm just kind of crudely giving you the oversimplification of this.


So, the story that we've created in modern society is that I will identify with what I do or my output. I'm a research scientist, I am a musician, right, and we struggle with multiple disciplines. People do multiple things, right? That's a, you know, multi-hyphenate. You're kidding me. We've always done multiple things; we're human. So, I digress. But so that identity issue I was really really tackling on this, this is this is really pointless, right that we must. For me personally, um, I had to decouple all that from what I did and how I did it, and I think how my advantage was having this information processed very early on. Exposure and number two is part of my role as a producer requires that. You see, it's not about me; it's about the artist. I must put a mirror to the artist's brain to show him or her or they who they truly are in this cycle of their life, of expression. So, all this practice allowed me to be blacked out in this decoupling.

09:08 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

It's got ten years on us.

09:10 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I was eight, maybe 15.

09:13 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Yeah, I was engaged to a non-sexual life partner for five years, and he's the finest mind I've ever worked with. And he sat me down, and he said, Daniel, I'm getting out of the creative industry. In five years' time, roughly the best song you've ever heard in your life will be created by AI, and at that point, what value does creation have? We need to pivot out of the creative industry, so that's possible.

09:41 - David Brown (Host)

It's a possible future. Ironically, though, that makes the human even more important because, in that scenario, it's great you can create a song that people can listen to, but that then makes live performance actually more important, and I think, if that happens, the listener becomes more important at that point too Well, it's the only thing that matters At the end.

10:02 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Here's why. At that point, too. Well, it's the only thing that matters In the end. Here's why. Because it's like you can just tread a simple idea of there's tree falls, someone here just doesn't really fall right. It's a consciousness question at the end of the day, and it's also if there's no human on Earth, does it really matter what we think? Right? So, pull back from that point. You can then look at, uh, it doesn't matter who creates it; it matters experience and how we process that information to create creational taste-making.

10:31 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

This is very interesting. I've seen very many mediocrely gifted artists with unbelievable taste do so many billions of things that a few were fairly good, and they hated them, but they were at least better than or everything else they hated, and they hated them, but they were at least better than everything else they hated, and they were just phenomenal artists. The role of the tastemaker is not over yet. We've got ten years at least we're looking at the tastemaker economy becoming vitally important For that to happen.

10:57 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

You have to have this. You know the world must see the opposite. They must experience sludge; they must experience mediocrity.

11:05 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

We're really young here. We've had 20 years of complete sludge, yeah, and we're returning. Some of us are returning to a need for specificity. This is why we have listened to legacy music for the last 20 years: because it's not sludge.

11:19 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

And we can just build this argument up because I know it might have viewers that might say, well, that's a generational bias. Well, actually, and I would, I would, I would used to be one of those believers in the generational bias, true, but in this case, we have there's actually a lot of case studies, quite a few studies coming out out of Vienna, uh, coming out of uh and uh NYU, a few other universities, showing that the. If you look at the uh, if you look at the direction in the past 20 years, you can see a degradation in the use of poetic mechanisms, right Rhyming schemes, there's weighted values on the words. The syntax has been degrading in the usage of poetic mechanisms Other than country music, which I hate, but that has retained still a lot of story.


Well, my point is that the generational bias it usually has to be the belief that our previous music was better. In this case, while we're showing actual degradation of the quality of music and I'm very careful about these words by which we're measuring music by, is showing that the quality of music and I'm very careful about these words in by which we're measuring music by is showing that the quality has degraded and that's I think my and the way you said a generational bias is a really good way to express that because I remember when I was, I'm old and I remember when I was young, like we always concerts, live music all the time.

12:41 - David Brown (Host)

But I grew up in Memphis, and it's time of the blues and Beale Street, and you know, we always saw live music all the time. But I grew up in Memphis, and it's home of the blues and Beale Street, and you know, we always saw live music and acts performing. And then it seems like we went through this desert over the last 15 or 20 years where just nobody really.

12:54 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

I mean, yes, there are some big acts that tour around, but live music didn't seem to be as popular, and I'm looking at the audiences, and they're not just looking at their phones because they're addicted to their phones. Audiences are much more bored than I've seen some really amazing people play in the last year, and the audience was, their energy was, and the audience, so the meaning is getting drained out of music. But I honestly blame record companies for that. I blame the distribution system.

13:21 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I also think that the overstimulation of immediate gratification, that's it, the cocaine effect.

13:27 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

I've just had five peak experiences today. Thank you so much. I can't bear another. I can't bear another peak experience. No, it's true.

13:34 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I've witnessed the same thing because I've toured with so many artists, so many artists I've toured with and to be in front and right there, next to the artist in vision, and looking at this kind of like an Edward Bernays, you know, like mindset right, I'm looking at these people, and they are, um, not as engaged, um, but there's this you know.

13:52 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

But you know what happened when I when I got like a million plus money when I first signed, then I went to all the best restaurants in the world and did that for about two years, and they stopped tasting good. So I said no more Michelin. So I'm in a michelin style restaurant in 15 years because I want that it to be unattainable. And now food tastes really good again, yeah, you cleanse your palate.

14:15 - David Brown (Host)

Yeah, I've cleansed my palate. That's really good, and it's it's funny that you talked about the audience as well. Short story: we went to see Robert Plant. Robert came to Tunbridge Wells with this, with his sort of the thing that he's doing these days, and the audience had no interaction with the audience whatsoever like the audience was.


It was, this is gonna sound terrible, but it was a bunch of old people. Everybody sat in their seats. There was belay clapping, maybe at the end of it's horrifying you. I mean, we were in the second soul destroyer, son, you know, because I wanted him to. You know it's Robert Plant, right? Like Shirbo, Allison Krauss for them. And it was you could literally watch the energy get sucked out of the band the longer that he played, and there were a couple of times people up, all right, people wouldn't get up, and you saw he just, he basically just got fucked off with the whole thing. So he's like, I'm almost certain that they cut the set short. Do you know what I do? I go into the audience, song with sort of half-hearted and that was it, and then he left. I get in the audience.

15:17 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

And I snog someone, anything to break them and shake, shake, shake, boom, boom, boom, until they go like oh, okay, okay, okay, okay now I'm feeling it.

15:28 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Yeah, so it looks like there's a point of the collective consciousness and what matters, and in this immediate future, what looks like it matters is the transition towards revaluing experience and what makes us human. Uh, you see, it played out in real time. Right, it is. It's a co-creation process; it is the playing of the song, that's right.

15:45 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Right, and the experiencing right, the observer, it's no longer the genius leader, president, uh, movie star, pop star it is. It is absolutely about engagement. Now I don't understand. And so the engagement loop, the recursive feedback loop, is what TikTok is trained on, and that's what's informing its algorithm. Now, there's also the possibility that Spotify is getting bought out by record companies, and now they're all just serving the same evil machine. But I, there's, there's a way out here, and then a correct engagement, recursive cycle of feedback could lead us in the right direction. And there's only one thing Like: co-created music is usually terrible.


I've never been in a session with lots of people that ended up better because it had lots of people. I know there are some. Max Martin might have actually figured that one out right, but generally, the crowd doesn't decide on good art, but it does decide what a hit is. Very, very, very, very well. That's proved by all the, you know, before Bob Hartley took over the radio stations with a clear channel and made it a 50-song rotation in every state, in every radio station in America, the radio still was listening to people getting feedback. So if we create that and sorry Bob, really lovely guy, apparently, sorry Craig, there is a way to build this system that nourishes our souls, but we'd have to go and build the tech, raise the money, build the tech, reach product market fit, blow it up, get engagement, and that is a very exciting process of which I'm currently involved. Right now, I'm looking at fixing and positioning engagement as the centre of the leading process, which you might think is too late.

17:38 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Well, no, I think there's a tech solution, but it's again temporal; it's going to require different phases at different times. There is this evolution, you know, Concilian parallel to this when we look at evolutionary theory, and if we look at, well, essentially the disparate relationships of algorithms, my hope is in disparate relationships of algorithms, right? So right now, we're using predominantly a lot of LLM diffusion models, right, but there's other algorithms, right? And so, one caveat to the redundancy of reinforced learning models is that they keep repeating themselves and become self-reinforcing to mediocrity because everything gets levelled to the same quality. There's also closed loops. There's also a laptop with its own boxed tastes and preferences through individual cloud-based processing and AI processing. So that's hopeful to me. It essentially means that you get to define who you are and build the universe.

18:50 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Yeah, and you experiment infinitely within your own data set? Yeah, exactly.

18:55 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Remember what you were like before.

18:58 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

So there's a DJ in the Netherlands that has trained 1,000 hours of his music Sure. Have you heard about this?

19:06 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I can only envision that.

19:07 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

And so he's got a co-DJ. Now it plays, he DJs, and then it creates a record in response to this record, and he just backs to back with himself with his digital twin, and apparently, it's phenomenal.

19:19 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Oh, that, that kind of stuff's very interesting, yeah, and it's phenomenal to him especially, isn't it? Because he's, that's right; he's like everything I like.

19:27 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Yeah, so imagine that it was also trained on all your Spotify lists. Yeah, that curated approach to LLMs is like personal LLMs, with a bunch of agents working for you and helping you do the whole business. This is going to be very exciting moment in history.

19:41 - David Brown (Host)

But then you end up going down the rabbit hole you can't. Then you see, what I miss about the radio is hearing stuff that I would have never listened to right now, but there hasn't been anything for 20 years that you wouldn't have listened to.

19:53 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Let's go five tracks a year that you like.

19:55 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Oh well, he's not just, but we must remember that's this. And we're sticking, stepping into the, the subjective, uh, uh points of conversation. Because you know, there, our kids, and like the next generation, z-gen, are very impassioned by pop artists today. So they're slightly confused. They're still going to go see Taylor Swift, but there's only three of them that they're going to see. No, no, no, no. Actually, that's not true.


If we look at engagement and you look at new artists, it's significant; it's not to be ignored.


What we're saying is the patterns of consumption will change, but the question we might be, maybe I suggest, ask ourselves is, is it sarcastic or is it regression to the need? Are we going to see patterns of these cycles where we have, um, yeah, slushed it out, and then we go, oh, my God, I need that taste? I remember authorities right, where you radio stations, uh, playlists right, DJs right, and then we go to cycle that and then that gets old again, and then, oh, but this, there's a new box system where the whole loop that, this tribe here and this ecosystem here. Sorry, these individual communities have a special, unique feeling about how they express themselves. I want that right, and so we don't know, but it's temporal, but I think it's not when I get these questions, if more it's a disharmony, no, a spectrum it's, it's a range of evolutions well, like I know, when the UK, even since I've lived here so I've lived in the UK for 25 years, and even since I've been here, loads of the big clubs have closed.

21:38 - David Brown (Host)

Yeah, and also, Jose is not drinking and well, yeah, and, but they're not drinking, and whatever. But what's really interesting is, in the last year and a half, you started to get raves on farms again. Are you just? Are you, though? It's all coming right that's coming back.

21:53 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

England is waking up. Music in England is what England has always been. I think for history, it's been this rival between the the west uh, the us and england when it comes to culture. Right, and what I love about England is that they're they're very deliberate on their intentionality of, and respect towards, new music. That's right, it's very, it's like.

22:15 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Abner, and also a real break at this level is understanding where it came from and the evolution of it and the delight in that now, I.

22:22 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I'll show you what's interesting about the US and its culture, and the African heritage that was predominantly impactful in the US is something to be really respectful as well. So, these communal aspects of music, I think we can see that there is value in that, and I can see a future in which the equivalent of evolutionary and communal aspects that we cherished over the history of time can be built. But they're going to be different because we're still human, and we can't fast-track the evolution of thousands of years of our brain forming. I'll tell you, I'll tell you what the most important thing is in my, in my mind of this moment.

23:12 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

But I haven't seen, haven't been excited about creating for 20 years. I was excited when dubstep came out until it got overplayed. I was very excited about Afrobeats. When it came out, I heard from South Africa, oh wow. And I heard funk from Brazil and yeah, and I got excited in those moments. And then there's this that comes from Argentina, which is 6-8 reggaeton. It's amazing. There's been moments of being excited. Then I tried to get involved in that scene, and I couldn't find it. But suddenly, there's an explosion coming. I've been listening to audio for weeks now. I may do anything I want. At all times, I'm excited to create, and I'm very, very convinced that people will like it. Excitement and the link between a scene, because there have been very few scenes in the last 20 years creation of scene and excitement stimulus is very likely to create an enormous amount of great music in the next ten years if people jump on the bandwagon. It's so interesting.

24:19 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I've been fortunate, I've been very fortunate to have worked with the modern pioneer of genre defining, and that was Jimmy. Jimmy Iovine was really extraordinary. What he did, he would. Oh, thank you, pincer. What's really interesting about what he did is he was able to catalyze new genres by scouting and having ambassadors of those genres. Scouting more genres? Yeah, right, so he would sign producers more; he would depend on the producers he would sign to catalyze and identify new genres. It's one modality.


So what I learned from that and working with people who would have defined genres, and I think humbly so this table us both have defined a few genres that are going to hyper-scale, right, so we're going to see. That makes me really happy. Yeah, so you're going to see that. But also, it's going to. I believe it might go so fast that we're going to remove the whole term of genre and genres, because it's all going to be Genre metadata is what we're going to have. Yes, it's going to. Yeah, so so that you know. But again, it goes back to the identity that communities need, identities by the way.

25:32 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

I just put Bhangra and drama bass together in a way that I've always been longing for 20 years to heal, and it blew my mind. Feels like she gets it so good, Tabla, with drum and bass. Like, I've heard new 20, 30 Bangra drum and bass things, and they weren't brave enough for me. They didn't take it far enough. So that's it, and it is now. I'm playing this for the rest of my life. I will be from the only person in history that listens to it. Conor P. Listen to the bungalow.

26:02 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I want to see Daniel's reaction if you ask the same question a year from now, two years from now because you can do that all day long, and that excitement is a dopamine, dopaminergic effect, right? So that is going to get like same thing. The audience experience are you talking about, like I want to see how is the joke.

26:18 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Um, I, I completed Porn Hub. This is a great joke. So, the the porn effect that the gen z are experiencing with so much, and it's going to be much worse with synthetic ai, everything, a bigger boost for these different colour skin, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, I can't get off on anything; I apologize. Um, now I can't get off on anything. I can't even. I can't even feel aroused. The Gen Z are experiencing unless they go with the no fat movement, which is actually pretty massive that cocaine effect of so much dopamine I can no longer feel. In general, I think I see that sweeping the planet on many levels, and maybe I'm experiencing it now: Adrenaline fatigue, dopamine fatigue; yeah, I think that's part of the nature of being human and the disadvantage of having immediate gratification.

27:10 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

It's the disdain of the rich.

27:11 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

I don't know; nothing matters. You know I can't feel anything. Darling, Are you excited?

27:18 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I mean, okay. Then it comes down to self-awareness, right, and consciousness, and how you know your level of enlightenment, right? If you define enlightenment of this non-hedonic pursuit of life, right? So there's Aristotelian, hedonic and eudaimonic, right? So hedonic is the pursuit of pleasure, and eudaimonia is the pursuit of being right. And so how many of the world really operates in that being equanimous state, right? In order to relieve yourself of the dulling of your senses, the dulling of the neuronal, hormonal feedback loop that you're created by the immediate gratification you need to cleanse, can we discuss something? So I'd like to hear from the two of you. So how do you have society cleanse? Because most people are still in the hedonic phase. It takes a lot of work to get to the autonomous.

28:18 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

So, scarcity design as a university subject one day, 20 years from now, ten years from now? How realistic is that? You find that design the amount of abstinence from any experience so that you can cleanse your palate, and we?

28:35 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I actually really like that. I think that's actually really brilliant. I think that as much as we never thought, you know. So I was helping with this campaign. I won't talk about what the company was, but the idea of nature being a new luxury, right and looking at, are you kidding me? Like I was laughing at my digital detox? Yeah, yeah, exactly like, really, like, you know, that's what it takes to be defining something that's luxurious in order for us to preserve it. But, to your point is that, if we're there, we're in this kind of ideology of, like you know, look looking to the past, the past to look towards the future. Right, that makes sense because then you know, when you have everything or too much of something, that's right. You know?

29:17 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

I want Fernando. I have fasted everything in life for months or years at a time until I removed my dependency from religion, spirituality, from sex, from drugs, from stimulants, from caffeine, every everything, from friendship, I, music. I gave up one by one. I went through everything I felt dependent on, and I've fasted it. And when I feel that returning dependence on anything, I quit for a few enough months until the cravings go away.

29:46 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Because I don't want to be enslaved, that's mild discipline. Yeah, it's self-awareness and self-discipline, right?

29:51 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Or just an understanding of a really simple principle that you will be enslaved by anything you're addicted to, and then your refusal to get into that, so it just doesn't actually have to take too much self-awareness, to be honest. Literally, someone just tells you that, and you believe it, and you can do it. Yeah, the decision to do. It's more self-will, it's more of a will issue yeah, discipline, so so, okay.

30:11 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

So I mean, I think I could, I can frame this on multiple like so philosophically, and this goes in neuroscience of how this aspect of awareness is, you're talking about evolutionary traits that have been part of your survival mechanisms for thousands of years, so it's toxic masculinity, so so, so, so removing, removing these to moving towards a place where you're able to have that level of discipline to take action on this is very difficult.

30:42 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Or you can have a bunch of uncles who did it and just think that that's part of your culture, but that's behaviour deterministic.

30:48 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

So what I'm saying is that, to your purview, you're seeing it from your experience that's behavior deterministic. You're seeing it from who Daniel Bedingfield's eyes are, but I'm talking about the average individual around the world who has no access to this behaviour-deterministic existence of Daniel Benningfield or a guru or a religious, spiritual leader who might have this purview. I'm talking about, like, the average, are you?

31:17 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

talking about the average American average English person. Like the average. Yeah, then, did you? Do you mean the average American average English person? Because this is not American. This is really normal in new zealand to have that level of of self-determination and courage, so so, self-awareness, that's kind of still coming.

31:28 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

You know, that's still the still be terror deterministic, culturally behavioral deterministic, still determined by your environment that you grew up on. What I'm saying is that it's a the evolutionary um processes and the way we've evolved over thousands of years is contrary to that language of enlightenment. It requires work to get to the place of the equanimous where you're able to discern, oh, I'm being manipulated, I'm being served these endorphin dopaminergic mechanisms. Right, I have a different feeling.

32:07 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Anyone who hasn't had an empire had created an empire. If I go to that country, I experience this thing that I just said. I think it's the legacy of empires to have turned off your inner witness so that you can serve the empire. So, for me, the world is packed with self-aware, self-determined human beings everywhere I go around the world, and then I go to places like America and England, and I don't see it because we are part of a machine.

32:32 - David Brown (Host)

That's just a theory. So you mentioned I want to tap into this just for a second because you mentioned ayahuasca.

32:37 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Yeah, indigenous cultures have this thing that I'm talking about inherent. I think that I'll just sort of ayahuasca rooms or something like that.

32:45 - David Brown (Host)

That can help you. Yeah, so well it.

32:49 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

It helps you break that, and it helps you develop some of that self-awareness. You can do it on a mountain alone for 80 years as well, through breathing, yeah, or you can do it in three hours with a DMT experience.

33:02 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

So, I hope you're affirming the point that you need, in this case, an external agent to remove the biases of labour determinism. That's what I'm saying is that you still need an agent because it requires a deep assessment of that. You're human, and you have these evolutionary traits, physiological, neurological and spiritual, environmentally that you must break through to get to a point of equanimous assessment of your reality. And this was gonna be very difficult for the average.

33:33 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Watch the Matrix and do DMT At the same time. Give everybody my shoes, yeah, give everybody my shoes. Now, really interestingly, the bunch of incredible friends that I have that have slugged it out for 30 years doing the self-work had enough money to therapy. If they didn't, they just read books. If they didn't, they just secretly died inside but still kind of got there. They are so resistant to this idea of taking a substance because, especially if they've grown up in England, they've only seen detrimental drug experiences.


I grew up; I've lived in California for 20 years. It's so rare that I see drugs abused in my friend group. They do it in a circle, they create an intention, they hold space, and they do it for the sake of enlightening, and they are working through their issues, and they are healing. And they do it for the sake of enlightenment, and they are working through their issues, and they are healing, and they are sorting out their brain. So that resistance. I feel really sad for some of my friends who are locked in a perpetual cycle of misery because they literally could just do five mushroom trips to the right group of people and get straight out, or they could do 20 years of therapy, which, like $100,000 of therapy and endless reading, and they'll still be happier. And they'll still be happier, and they'll still be happier if they do the mushroom. They're so resistant to this message. Maybe I sound a little too evangelical.

34:45 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

No, no, no. If you're framing this as medicine medicinal for the soul, medicinal for the psyche, medicinal for the spirit, yeah, you can make an argument for that. What I'm saying is I'm making a different point. I'm saying that what is going to happen, what is going to be required of the human to process who they are, their inner being, their whole world is going to be challenged, and they're all going to experience this together.

35:15 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

That's the problem, and they'll be failing and miserable together, but it's in different cycles.

35:20 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Yeah, different cycles. So this is fast; I'm not his first. Depends on who you are, last word, because if you look at from an economic perspective, they say, you know, at the middle part, middle ladders, right, yeah, the middle level, right, that's, that's next. So here, or he is away. The sequence of the order, order of sequence is different, but what I like to think is that the creatives - musicians, the artists, the painters have a unique resiliency trait. That's true, and their resiliency trait is they're very used to, they thrive in quartic spaces right, spaces right, either an organized chaos or a cortic, or a very ad-hoc neurodiversity driven, traumatic synthesizing, individual um experience, how to be, how to be at once the most over-sensitive human being in the room and the most resilient.

36:16 - David Brown (Host)

It's crazy so this is it's got to be an impossible but like, but I see people doing it, yeah, you how?

36:23 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

can someone that sensitive still be walking around? I'm gonna thought at the same time. So it's possible that being oversensitive creates resilience because life is so bright, so painful, so overstimulating at all times that in your formation of yourself, you created a core that can handle moments of overstimulation.

36:45 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Isn't that interesting? Daniel is a great example of this. The artists that the Proboots are working with same thing have some artists that won't mention their names. They can't step a foot outside their home because they know the ramifications of the music they created and what it does for people. They're so tuned in to people and their emotions that they literally embody them, so in Danny, you've talked about this.

37:10 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

You can't also. That said, I think, yeah, being famous is one of the most traumatic things possible to a person who gets overstimulated. So I'll give you an example: 100,000 people are really nice and kind and sweet to you, and they only treat you the perfect way that you'd like to be treated. Still, 100,000 people are trying to interact with you for the right reasons, even if that's just traumatic to an overstimulated person.


Yeah, fame is just brutal to the right reason and then when you look at the other, yeah, then you, then you go it. Honestly, one death threat took me ten years to recover from, and death is actually really hard to deal with A problem. Yeah, it's really hard to deal with. I thought it'd be easy. It's not. It's really not. I don't know why. If you come there, we'll knock your head off with a. You better wear a helmet. It's just, and not even a full death threat. It was really.

38:01 - David Brown (Host)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which I reckon says never read the comments.

38:05 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

So that's why. So listen, when Elton and David come down every morning, they wouldn't mind me sharing this. The whole table is spread with every newspaper, and Elton never reads it. He comes and sits down and has his coffee, and David comes down and reads all the newspapers and then tells Elton what's in them. Thank you very much, Elton and David. If you see this, that is some wisdom right there.

38:27 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Actually, it's great. I love that point because it goes back to when I didn't like it because everyone affirmed something I said. I like it because it's actually possible. It's actually possible to create your infiltration system in this world of AI, right? That's right.

38:41 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

You can ask AI, what do we say today like, oh, you build it. Give me the good start dreading.

38:45 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Custom, custom l11 oh system. Call systems are right close to processing with your preference as to what you allow in.

38:52 - David Brown (Host)

Yeah, that's right. We used to work for a company that did press cuttings, and they do the digital press cuttings every day. So now you could absolutely do that. You could say look, give me two sections. I want the good news in the front and I want the bad news, but you could also say you could also say repurpose the negative feedback in a way that you know I can handle.

39:11 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

So I can pivot. I don't, but none of this I'm curious.

39:15 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Can we ask something, David? So I'm curious. I want to ask David, this too, your opinions on AI and love, Daniel, yeah.

39:22 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Oh, he's David. Yeah, oh, yeah, I want you to cut that out.

39:29 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

You would have asked us that. Cut that out.

39:32 - David Brown (Host)

You want me to cut that out? Yeah, so what's your opinion of AI and love?

39:38 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

How do you see your world? Okay, I have a real answer here. Yeah, yeah, I am good-looking enough to have had sex. I'm good-looking enough to have had great relationships. That puts me in the top 70% of the planet. But the 30, bottom 30 that can't get laid, that can't find love, is being enormous in every culture I've ever been to, and they need support too. But no one's willing to show up for them. Even they don't even show up for each other sometimes, do you, do you know kind of? This is a very provocative state, actually, that, yeah, it's supported by science.


I mean, there's a lot of unbelievably lonely people who are either struggling too too much with the interaction or or society's beauty standards or cleanliness standards or interaction standards. I think thank God, because so, my friend, right now he's looking after his dying father while his wife is in America. He's in Australia, his wife's in America, um, while his wife's parents are dying, and he's in the worst moment of his life. So he's created an LLM to talk about death with him and dark thoughts, and he's forbidden it from saying placating things. So they just talk, together with chapter 4.0, about the darkest things possible and he says it measure be helpful.

40:55 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

So, let's frame this out. So this comes from this notion that 70% of the population as a whole has an unfair advantage over 30% of the ones that have this, either certain attributes that make this genesis of quality, what makes you attractive? It could be looks, it could be a skill, it could be something right. So that's where this argument comes from something right. So that's where this argument comes from. And what? So then I'm going to frame if, if that's the case, if it is true that 30 of the population achieves, uh, connection with 70 of the population, right, an unfair advantage, um, either, uh, environmentally, genetically, uh, you know, more money, whatever the case may be right. If that's the case, could AI give the lacking 70% of the population an advantage? And I think it can. What? The 30%, the lacking 30%? No, it's a lacking 70%, 30%. It goes back to this case study: 30% have an unfair advantage of some sort that makes them greater. Could it give them an advantage?

41:58 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Yes, it could. For example, if you owned your own metadata on a blockchain and you had input your diaries, your emails, all your preferences, and it knew everything about you and that was your property and it was licensed from you by data companies per annum, then dating could get phenomenal, and you could date across the world too, and a person like that might travel across the world to meet someone that was really matched with them.

42:28 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

It's soulmate level, right? Soulmate level, so the soulmate you're quantifying what a soulmate is. I believe that AI will be intelligent enough to figure that out. That's so interesting. Yes, so you would have to discern through reinforcement learnings, hypothetically, what is a soulmate, right? So, based upon the proximity of connection and a longitudinal, latitudinal study to look at discernment, AI can help. Actually knew. So that's really interesting. So then you have the proxies and what you look for right and to prompt as to, this is my history of being. This is how I was raised. That's right.

43:04 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

That's right, and you would give that information if you owned it. And if you didn't own it, you would not give that information. And your diary is dictated to your friend, this AI, every day, so it truly builds a model of your psyche better than any human being can do and up to date. That's so interesting. Now, this is interesting. If you had access to God, like in the flesh, God would know you better than any human could. We are about to have a friend that will know us better than any human ever could. More comprehension.

43:38 - David Brown (Host)

I think the key there is it will know you better than you know you way better because it'll also have the models of all the other human beings. Exactly, there's three at least. There's the person that other people see us as, there's the person that we see ourselves as, and there's who we really are, and those are three distinct, different things, and I think what I'm gonna be really good at, building on what you were saying, is uncovering those bits that we don't realize. So we say we want something in a partner, right, but we're misidentifying what's your

44:12 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

What's your opinion of the cerebral cortex function of the human organism as a whole? How do we sort ourselves out in crowds? Really well, Terrible. What if we had a helpful cerebral cortex to help us sort out en masse how we behave?

44:27 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

So, just close this loop. I think that I believe if the I think it's no doubt that AI will help us in this field of connection; I think that we will get to a point where we can feed ourselves with the right, not only a potential collaborating partner for our life but the douche production partner.

44:50 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

You guys are both making such similar music. You'd love you 10 minutes down the road. That's what I'm building, by the way. It's a smart grid for music.

44:57 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I was referring to making babies, but that was interesting but also with the right way to front that individual right.

45:06 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Right Type of instinct. You guys are like this, yeah, so we do it. We don't want to come out with any cheesy trick-up lines anymore.

45:14 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

So let's close that loop, but you know the ones that work on that person. Yeah, well, that's close that loop, but you'll know the ones that work on that person. Yeah, yeah, well, that's not my point.

45:20 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Well, that's my point. And kinks, by the way, are so much more important to finding a soulmate. But we can't tell random people about kinks because if they don't have the same kink, they're really going to judge it. So you've got a secret level of data that doesn't get shared with anyone.

45:37 - David Brown (Host)

Unless they match on a certain level, dating's gonna get great. It really could. It's gonna get really interesting, that's for sure.

45:40 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

So so and sex robots will be very helpful for those. So New Zealand pays for prostitutes to see disabled people because it sees a constitutional right to get laid, and your psyche will break if you don't have some sexual outlet. So, it pays for that to solve the mental anguish. Maybe sex robots will help people who couldn't get laid any other way. It'll also totally damage us in immeasurable ways.

46:07 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Yeah, I see the non-zero-sum game. I don't need your wife Can't compete with my harem.

46:16 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

I've got a harem and I've got 17 robots back here. Yeah, no, no, no, we're all's something different. And 17 of them are modelled on you, and they make you say all kinds of stuff you would never say. You're right. You're right. If there's no woman in the room, is a man still wrong? None of them ever disagree with me.

46:38 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I, uh, yeah, I won't put a comment to that; I'll refrain from that. But the part that we're missing here is the unconscious aspect. The right-hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing in the way we're built right. So I think AI can bring up the unconscious aspects, based on pattern recognition, based on how you behave, how you're brought up, what your environment, what you were raised in, the demographic, the psychographic all that data can be processed and discerned to find a matching potential. It's really interesting, right, like do you think maybe in that case, if this, in a hypothetical world where this reality exists, which we could see very, very soon, would that bring humanity? Would that raise in a level of consciousness? Could it actually tilt the good and evil spectrum right? Could it actually tilt towards good, right, human connection?

47:30 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

It has everything to do with what we decide AI becomes. So we don't have to let Sam Altman determine the future of AI. It's just one thing, and it's fledgling. Yes, it's out of our hands the military applications but we can easily go. So, we are seconds away from AI agents that can program AI. We have two years, maybe. So there's a leak that just came out for one of the employees. He got fired for leaking, and he's written a document from OpenAI that came out last week, which I can't wait to show you. He said that the only thing that anyone is going for right now is programmers that program AI, and we're close to that. As soon as we do that, then it will accelerate by itself. So we'll never get open AI to AGI. It will.

48:28 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

So, in the community, it's been a notion that was always the goal, right? Yes, it's self-replicating, Well, yeah, but also you have different degrees of, you know, pursuit of AGI and super AGI and derivatives of autonomous agents that that are also equivalent to conscious right. So getting to that space it's been the priority. As a model, yeah, as a model.

48:58 - David Brown (Host)

e originally developed in the:

49:17 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

I finished my whole library science fiction section by 13. So, this moment feels so familiar to me.

49:23 - David Brown (Host)

Finally, I've been paying for this my whole life.

49:26 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

When I made a phone call on my watch, you know, I was like, this is like Weirdly also, if you look at the, the, the myths of Olympus, the gods of Olympus, we have almost all of that technology available to the average person right now. It's not myths anymore. So this does lead me back to thinking, perhaps, that these, these stories were historical. It aligns with some of the ancient alien or some of the ancient apocalypse sounding really kind of uneducated most of them, but some of the ancient alien or some of the ancient apocalypse sounding really kind of uneducated most of them, but some of it. The idea that this, some of this technology, has existed before, and that's what I'm missing based on, does begin. They're starting to resonate, I?

50:03 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Every time I speak to Daniel, I think about, like, wow, if the intelligence community only hired Daniel for his creativity, that'd be a change in perspectives, right? I think that being able to see disparate concepts come together has been the strength of the creative class for a very long time. And we talk about, like what are creators going to do? Well, we're building these models as we speak. I have an institute that's building these models to onboard creators to do Well; we're building these models as we speak. I have an institute that's building these models to onboard creators to become thought leaders to become innovators. And this level of not only philosophical, oh, I think he's died.

50:43 - David Brown (Host)

Keep talking. Keep talking, then, because it's the audience. Hang on, yeah, we have backup.

50:48 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Oh, yeah, so filming us. That is the other point. Yeah, we have a backup. Oh, still dying. Filming us. Yeah, they're fine, yeah, so the new.

50:53 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

I want to watch this. This is great. This is amazing. See, that's a good conversation. Please link me in. I really like this.

51:00 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

So what is the life where the artist no longer makes music? Well, I think they're thought leaders, I think they're gurus, I think they're ushering us in a generation where the value of being human is going to be the highest it's ever been.

51:12 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

So, I actually want to put a call out here to any artists that are watching this. If you want to begin creating a cohort of thought-leading artists, reach out to me on my Instagram. This is necessary. We will determine. Every individual watching this has the power to determine what AI becomes. Every individual watching this has the power to determine what AI becomes.


And if you tell yourself that you can't change the outcome of the climate devastation, loss of the ecosphere, biosphere, if you tell yourself that you can't inform the future of AI, you won't actively go out there and find the people that care about it. Organize yourself collectively, form your own communities and then do it. You have to decide that Schrodinger's cat is alive in the box because if you decide that it's dead, you get cancer, and you get depressed. So choose what you believe the future to be, align yourself with other people that are finding this and let's make sure AI benefits us, because this is the most pivotal moment in history. There cannot be a more pivotal moment. I can't imagine in any future that there could be a more pivotal moment because we're about to lose the whole game or about to win everything, and maybe that's too grandiose for you.

52:24 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

No such thing as too grandiose. No such thing as grandiose. I'm just mindful of where we're at now, and I'm mindful of what dies have been cast, um. Equally, how much, uh, how much power is in self-authoring, self-actualization? And I think it's very high. I think that, in the sense of, you do have the power to author your own reality, and this time, more than any time in history, is accurate no, 100, it's hopeful.

52:54 - David Brown (Host)

You know somebody, uh, I've talked about this on my show before. They've worked out that if you're rude to AI, it gives you better results.

53:01 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

True, I mean, really also, it's like a real relationship. Got it the real american relationship. I would say it's American South American.

53:11 - David Brown (Host)

That is, that's it. But for me, that was like a massive red flag because I'm like, say, people know that they could be rude to it. What we're doing is we're training it to be rude, I know, and do we want to train an AI that potentially becomes an AI to be rude? I think that's why we want to.

53:28 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I think that we're prompting trends, and then there'll be, and then we'll adapt to these prompting trends. We can't make any white people with Gemini.

53:38 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

There's an overreaction, and then they'll swing back.

53:41 - David Brown (Host)

Well, that's the whole bias thing. Yeah, bias alignment. Who's biased? Because everybody has biases. So every group, every country, every part of the world, every religion, everything has their own own.

53:51 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

But I think we're reaching a point where shifts can happen over weeks, and it'll be days and seconds.

53:57 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

I agree with that 100%. I think that the rate of change is so exponential and that the rules of measurement are going to change.

54:07 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

So, if you're ADHD, you're a bill for this moment. I'm only getting an iPhone in my life, Finally Saving my brain. It saved my life Having an iPhone absolutely First time in my life, I could actually find everything. Listening to old people talk for three hours about what's true in their memory, no interest, being able to Google and then so I just use something called Ground this week Ground News so in every news story it shows you how red, how blue and how neutral it is. In the white, it's like a French flag; interesting, okay, and that's exactly what information I need because I need to know the bias of every news story. So I think that what? What it all has to do with the truth GPT, which is basing, trying to create croc into, which is going to have a truth rating, and the attribution of that, where all the ideas came from and how likely it is to be true.

55:06 - David Brown (Host)

Something like that truth-based economy, yeah, whether he'll do it or not, would be very helpful. There's a company called Credder that does that for news stories on social media, and it has ratings by journalists and professionals, and it has ratings rotten tomatoes for, and it basically brings them together, and it doesn't rate like did you like this story or not it's. Was this story well written? Was it well-researched? Does it have facts to support its argument and whatever. To try and do something similar, right, I have a. What's it called?

55:37 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Credo, credo. That's very cool, very cool, and I think these thoughts to the nth degree and keep going to. You know, there's a lot of subjectivity in truth. Right, it's where you sit, and then that's the question. Right, it's where you sit, and then that's the question. Right, it's like, well, do we have, as humans, a capacity to understand truth like truth? And that is still. It's a human movement of human bias, you know, movement of human bias. I think it's where the AI, hopefully, can come into.

56:07 - David Brown (Host)

Yeah, if he does see it, I'll send it to you afterwards. Yes, please, um, if he does see it, I'll send it to you afterwards. Yes, please. I have to ask you a question, actually, Daniel, because I wonder. This is something that I noticed when I started doing more video, and I assume that you've been famous. Yeah, you've been on TV, you've been on shows, and you've been recording while it's stopped for your whole life, probably. Do you find it, or did you ever find a situation where you had a view of something that happened and then you went back and watched it later and went that's totally not how I saw that going down, or that's not what I thought I said. I thought I said something different, but when you look at the video, you actually see that the situation was different than you thought.

56:45 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

No, my recall is pretty good. Okay, but tell me where you were going with that.

56:53 - David Brown (Host)

No, it's just just again. It was more about that. It's again about the perception of what you think.

56:56 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

I never found it true that I can't remember things when I'm angry, and I theorize it, but I've never witnessed that that my perception when I'm furious is different than that night. But I know that human beings experience that and I actually I'd welcome a chance to be confronted with being experienced.

57:13 - David Brown (Host)

That's interesting because I watch reality TV, and then people will go, oh, but I did this, and I did that, and we're like, but we saw the video, we know what you did. Oh, that's a memory problem and I know it's got production and whatever behind it. I was slightly cursed with an accurate memory.

57:27 - Fernando Garibay (Guest)

Yeah, because most people have. So it's memories. It's not static. Memory is always evolving. Every time you reference it, you change it.

57:36 - Daniel Bedingfield (Guest)

Have you heard about that? That's true, yeah, yeah, yeah, every time you recall it. I'm careful not to remember some things very often so that when I can remember them, they feel fresh, and I label them.

57:46 - David Brown (Host)

Yeah, yeah, no, it's interesting. Suck on some really cute memories from back in the day. I love it. Gus, thank you very much for your talk. This was a spur-of-the-moment conversation, and it was amazing; thank you, Daniel. Thank you, david, thank you very much. That was awesome.

** This transcript was created using an AI tool (, so there may be minor inaccuracies in spelling, grammar and word recognition.**




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