In this episode, host Daniel Johnson sits down with Michael Huerter, author of The Hybrid Congregation: A Practical Theology of Worship for an Online Era. Michael shares insights from his research and ministry experience, exploring how churches can faithfully navigate the evolving landscape of digital and hybrid worship. From theology to technology, embodiment to community, this conversation offers a thoughtful and hopeful vision for the future of worship in a digitally integrated world.

🧠 Topics Covered

What is a Hybrid Congregation?

• Michael defines hybrid congregations as communities that blend traditional in-person worship with digital practices, emphasizing that most churches already operate along this spectrum.

Theology of Digital Embodiment

• Drawing on scholars like Pete Phillips and Teresa Berger, Michael discusses how embodiment persists even in digital spaces and how online worship can still be deeply relational and spiritual.

Music in Hybrid Worship

• Michael reflects on the evolving role of music in digital settings, balancing participatory and presentational approaches, and shares creative examples from his research.
• Sacraments in a Digital World
• From virtual baptisms to home communion, Michael explores how different traditions are reimagining sacramental practices in hybrid contexts.

Community & Spiritual Formation

• Practical strategies for fostering genuine community and discipleship across physical and digital spaces, including empowering online members to lead and serve.
• Technology, Discernment & the Church
• A call for churches to resist fear-based or tech-obsessed extremes and instead adopt a people-first, discerning approach to digital ministry.

The Future of Worship

• Michael shares his vision for a church that resists fragmentation and embraces digital tools to deepen connection, compassion, and Christlikeness.

📚 Resources Mentioned

• 📖 The Hybrid Congregation: A Practical Theology of Worship for an Online Era by Michael Huerter (InterVarsity Press)
• 📊 Pew Research on church attendance and online worship trends in 2025
• 🧠 Scholars referenced: Pete Phillips (Spurgeon’s College), Teresa Berger (Yale Divinity School)
• 🎥 Watch this episode on YouTube https://youtu.be/E8tdXaTHPIc

🔗 Connect with Us

• 🌐 Learn more about the S.L. Brown Foundation and Upper House: slbf.org
• 📬 Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app
• 💬 Share your thoughts and feedback with us!

So you and I having this conversation over the internet on this video and audio call, our bodies still matter in this interaction. Both literally we are still physical and the ways we interact with each other, the ways that I see your expressions, hear your words, my body responds to that. And there's a potential connection and communication there. It's different than if we were sitting across the table from each other in a coffee shop, but it's not gone.

I think these technologies have been used in ways that separate and divide us and keep us distracted and disconnected instead of attending to the depth of meaning and connection between ourselves and God and each other. So I want to see the church resisting that cultural force and also creating spaces, even online, that invite us to worship, to listen to others, to be compassionate and to more fully embody the love of Christ. think that's my hope, my vision for worship in a digital world.

Welcome to the Upwards Podcast where we discuss the intersection of Christian faith in the academy, church, and marketplace. Today, I have a conversation with Michael Heuert, author of The Hybrid Congregation, a practical theology of worship for an online era. He's a pastor at Homewood Baptist Church in Kansas City, Missouri, where he leads worship and works to build community and connection. As a lifelong church musician and digital native,

He's interested in engaging with and contributing to scholarship that bridges the gap between research and practical ministry. Now on to the conversation.

Well, welcome back to the Upwards podcast. My name is Daniel Johnson. I'm your host for today's podcast. I have Michael Herter here and he is the author of The Hybrid Congregation, a practical theology of worship for an online era. And we're so excited to have Michael on the podcast today. His book is great. I think this will be really interesting and fascinating conversation as we get going. I just wanted to kind of highlight maybe a couple things that just came out of Pew Research this year around

I think to get our conversation going here, we've come out of the pandemic. The things are a lot of the embodied experience of being back in person. the church was really impacted by the pandemic in significant ways. So Michael, tell us a little bit about what inspired you to write this book, The Hybrid Congregation, and what particular moment during the pandemic sparked this idea around writing this book?

Yeah. So my interest in digital media and church music ⁓ together actually came before we knew about COVID-19. ⁓ was already a Baylor working on my master's degrees and I was researching ways that church music intersected with digital media and how digital media were becoming more more ubiquitous in our world. So I was really fascinated by questions of how people and communities made meaning and formed connection.

tragedy and chaos of the pandemic were making clear that these questions would likely be important to the future of the church. So of course, we didn't know back then what the scope of the pandemic's impact on the church might be. But as I was taking classes and researching theology and philosophy around music and worship, we were all experiencing this really major disruption of how we were used to doing church. So many people were engaged in conversations around

what to do in response to the pandemic, what worship could look like and what place online technologies could have within that. So as this was happening, I was also working at a church part-time in music ministry. I actually began this role just as the pandemic lockdown was starting. So I was kind of thrown in from the get-go with all this change happening. And I had a front row seat to how many churches were just thrown into this new thing, really without any preparation.

So I think through the first year or two of the COVID pandemic, there was a lot of conversation happening between church leaders and scholars on social media and Christian publications about online church and worship. And I think a lot of this conversation was interesting and productive, but I also felt like we were collectively out of our comfort zone and we didn't have all the tools and perspectives we needed both to process theologically what we were dealing with.

and just practically to minister in our communities as we were all facing this huge change. So as I was doing my research, I dug into more about the history of technologies and the church, and I wanted to learn what a variety of different research disciplines might have to offer ministry and the church's worship. And then kind of out of that dissertation came the baseline for this book and wanting to adapt it even further for church leaders and practitioners and lay leaders.

to be able to read it and benefit from it, hopefully.

Yeah, well, that's great. So you term this hybrid congregation kind of throughout the book. What distinguishes it from kind of a traditional or fully online worship models? Like how, what's your kind of definition, working definition of it? And then how may it differ from both of those?

Yeah, I would describe a hybrid congregation as community of faith that includes both traditional expressions of worship, like services in a church building, and also relationships and communal practices that involve digital technology. And to be honest, I think most congregations already fall somewhere along that spectrum. So one extreme would be a church that uses no digital technology or communication at all.

That might not be considered hybrid, but then another extreme might be a community that meets solely online or in virtual reality spaces and has no footprint outside of that. But I think most churches are somewhere in the middle. This would include, quote unquote, traditional churches that have things like websites, email newsletters, streamed worship services, or midweek Zoom Bible studies, all the way to digital first church plants that

But I think recognizing that allows us to learn and to grow in some new ways.

Curious on, I mean, we saw the pandemic hit, saw churches go, churches go virtual only. Here in our county, we were really locked down for, mean, most of our churches were closed for an entire year. And so they were doing virtual church for about a year. was a few that had opened that were trying to do some in-person congregation stuff, but mainly that. And then, I think coming out of the pandemic, we saw really a kind of a...

There wasn't really a virtual option for church necessarily. There's a few churches that were doing it, but not at the scale that churches are doing today. What's the tension around that? I mean, I think there's this kind of tension around what we offer, the embodied versus hybrid versus, you know, all digital that you were talking about. But if people are attending church less, just as a kind of common kind of baseline, how should people engage with those different experiences?

as you look at it.

Hmm. I think there are a few different approaches that I've seen churches and church leaders take. ⁓ I think one is kind of driven by that anxiety of, church attendance declining? What's going to be the future of our individual church? What's going to be the future of religion in, you know, in America or in whatever other country? And I think there can be kind of a fear-based approach of, well, if we're not on board with the newest technology, are we going to die? ⁓

Maybe there is some truth to that potentially, but I don't know that I would want to advocate for that kind of posture. ⁓ When I think about hybrid congregations and the different expressions we can have in our community and worship, the language I've been leaning into more more recently is taking a people first approach of, it's not about the technology for technology's sake, but the question is, how are we connecting with each other? How are we communicating?

where are the people in our communities that are already a part of our faith community and connected, and where are the people that we can connect with that might love to be a part of who we are. And I've even begun to think more and more of the internet as a bit of a place or a series of places. So are we willing to go there to connect with people, recognizing there are challenges, there are drawbacks, there are things to be aware of and careful of.

But I think I want to avoid both the extreme of like a, either a fear-based approach of either this technology is all evil, we have to get rid of it and ignore it, or if we don't embrace it wholeheartedly, we're going to die. So we have to make a fear-based decision either way. I think we can be more discerning both about what makes sense for our community, what makes sense for our people and the people we hope to connect with and minister with. Yeah, without falling into those extremes because

With change happening on such a broad level in society, it's really easy to get into that mindset.

Yeah, it's interesting. think John Dyer, which I think you know and both have read, he talks about last century, the two main technological advances were the automobile and the sound system in a church, the megaphone kind of a thing. And I think about the internet in the first quarter of this century, I mean, that's been probably the biggest impact, obviously, in the world, but also in the church as well.

I want, I think, lead in really well into this next question, but I want you to talk a little bit about the theology of digital embodiment. ⁓ You outline that in the book. for our listeners, maybe, what is it and how does it interact with us? How does it kind of, as participants in, you know, churches, most of our listeners are participants in churches, some of those are leading churches, but ⁓ how should they interact with something along those lines?

Yeah, think one of the things that in the book I want to invite people to consider is that when we talk about technology, most of the time what we actually mean by that word is the newest technology that we're not used to yet, and we're not quite sure what we think about yet. But our church communities have always used technology, everything from,

written language to the printing press to a piano or an organ or a microphone or a church building. These are all expressions of technology, but as they become kind of naturalized into our society, we forget that they are. So when I think about embodiment, there's a part of me that wonders, human embodiment has always included uses of technology the way we...

use clothing, the way we write letters to each other. This was a part of how the early church operated using that technology to connect across distance. So I think, you you have the apostle Paul saying in one of his epistles, see what large letters I use as I write this to you in my own hand. There is an embodiment to that, even though he's not physically present with that church. And that's a meaningful connection that echoes millennia later. So I think when we talk about

digital embodiment, I think we can come in with assumptions that if this technology is new, that mean bodies have nothing to do with it. But there are a couple of scholars that have kind of expanded my thinking around these things. One is Pete Phillips. He's at Spurgeon's College in London, and the other is Theresa Berger. She's at Yale Divinity School. So Phillips wrote about and also spoke to me in an interview about the ways that

In his view, human beings are always embodied even when engaging with digital technologies. So you and I having this conversation over the internet on this video and audio call, our bodies still matter in this interaction. Both literally we are still physical and the ways we interact with each other, the ways that I see your expressions, hear your words, my body responds to that. And there's a potential.

connection and communication there. It's different than if we were sitting across the table from each other in a coffee shop, but it's not gone. So I think there's a piece of that that is helpful to remember when I am using technologies, even if they are new technologies, digital and online technologies, I am still an embodied human person. So these online interactions are a part of our human experience. And that human experience is always

culturally situated and it involves technologies. So I think Pete Phillips, for me, had a very clear way of emphasizing that we are all always flesh and embodied, even when we're appearing on Zoom or something to that effect. And then Teresa Berger wrote about these things actually back even before the pandemic. She was exploring these aspects of digital technologies and church and worship. So she was saying that the physical and digital aspects of our lives are so closely intertwined.

I think when we think about embodiment and worship, for me, in this time when we're having these conversations and wondering about these questions, it's an invitation to underlie this with the conviction, how do we love our neighbors and care for their embodied selves in the ways that we are doing church? So for me, it's less about how can we make sure that bodies are in the pews and more about how can we love and care for these embodied human beings that are connected with us?

whether in person or through various technologies. So when I think about digital embodiment, that's kind of the ethical place I come back to, is that our relationships, even mediated through technology, still have implications for our physical and embodied lives.

That's great. I think that's super helpful. mean, we, part of my role here is kind of helping us think about our, you know, digital landscape and what we're doing. And it gave me, the term gave me some connection points that I hadn't had before that I'm able to kind of, you know, have conversations with our team in that way. And so I'm curious as a, you're, I mean, you're a musician as well. You're leading worship.

So as a church musician, how do you see the role of music evolving in this kind hybrid worship setting?

Yeah, so I think there was already a shift happening in the role of music even prior to the internet and social media. Technologies like the radio and television changed how people engaged with music and the ways that it featured in their spiritual lives. So the ways that people experience music on the radio or listening from their smartphones informs the expectations and attitude that they bring to a worship service. ⁓

I think depending on the ways that digital technologies are used going forward, music might take a different role at different times. I think we've had music fulfilling different functions in worship for a long time. We could get more into this, but to keep it simple, sometimes music is used in a participatory way where people are expected to be part of making the music together. And then other times music is used in a presentational way.

where people are invited to listen, to enjoy, reflect on, or respond to music in some spiritual sense. And I think both are still present in hybrid worship settings. So I think it will come down to how we can do both of these things going forward. So for instance, one challenge with a platform like Zoom is that it's not very well suited to

participatory music making because there is a lag in the audio between different people. So if everybody tries to sing together, it's gonna just be a mess. But I do think there are opportunities already for music to be used in reflective and formative ways online. And I suspect at some point we will have technology that can make synchronous music-ing more accessible. During my research, I came across a story of a church that had...

you know, some people scattered out in a rural area and they realized during the pandemic that they could call each other on their home landline telephones, get on a conference call and sing hymns together. And because the lag was so much less on a landline telephone, it worked. So that's not a brand new technology. That's using something that's been around like, I don't have a landline phone anymore. But.

an older technology that still has this utility that creatively applying it allows for something that we might not have assumed. yeah, I think there's going to be some interesting questions going forward. think, yeah, for me, it comes back to, I think there's value in making music together. And I think that is encouraging. It's formative. helps increase community bonds and it shapes us as we express our worship to God. So finding that

participatory way to do it and then also finding those ways that invite reflection and prayer. And even in a more presentational or potentially passive way, I think both are good and both are gonna be a part of the church's life going forward.

Yeah. When you're doing your research, I'm sure you're looking at like lots of different congregations who are doing different things and ⁓ expressions in kind of this digital embodied space. Wondering about what were some of the best expressions that you saw of during your research of kind of a digital embodied space for worship? Just curious on what you saw work really well in those spaces. Yeah.

I

think one thing that was intriguing to me that I saw was a music leader kind of recognizing that limitation of, okay, we're on a Zoom call together. How can we do this in a way that is engaging and meaningful? And, you know, ended up with a practice, something like, you know, inviting the participants on the Zoom call to, you know, keep your mic muted for this moment. Let's play some music. Let's sing together. And, you know, this worship leader, she was

leading the music in that call. And then after that music was done, there was an invitation to come back and discuss, know, what came up for you as we were praying through this music? How was God moving in you? What were you invited to reflect on? So there's still very much an interactive and relational piece to that and getting to benefit from the presence of other worshipers and, you know, getting to learn from each other and share encouragement. But it kind of

sidestepped that limitation of the technology. And again, I don't think that technology is going to be limited in that way forever, but I thought that was a positive and creative use of that. I also had a conversation with a pastor who works primarily in virtual reality spaces, and that's where he connects with people. And he told me about some really interesting kind of visual integrations of worship music in that VR space. now we have things like music videos that you can

see played on a screen, can follow along with the lyrics, you might see visuals that represent or communicate something about the meaning of that song. And in that virtual reality space, there's a possibility of representing that in a much more immersive way that you're surrounded by a scene that depicts something of the meaning of the song or portrays some of the lyrics and still allows potentially for people to move around to express physically through their

virtual reality avatar in a way that other people can see and can engage with. So that's maybe a bit more ⁓ unusual or extreme example of that, but I thought it was intriguing of what is possible in that kind of space. I don't expect most churches are going to use VR heavily, but who knows?

podcast notes for today's conversation include a link to view this episode on YouTube. Remember to follow or subscribe to stay updated with our latest episodes in your podcast app.

When I think about people gathering, either educational, we're in a very educational environment here with a spiritual focus. We don't have a regular gathering community, congregational community here, but our work is a Christian study center here at UW-Madison. We're gathering people and doing different expressions of different things or whatever. I think of the second screen as a really unique opportunity within the structure of either a hybrid dynamic, so digital.

or in in-person kind of a thing. But I think that second screen dynamic is really interesting in ways to interact with others in that. And then I also think about technologies that are coming online soon. And one of those is some type of glasses that are going to be fairly available for us probably in the next five to 10 years. Most people will be, even those that don't need glasses, maybe using those.

And so I also think of that as like an interesting integrated piece in the mix of how we're experiencing educational or worship experiences in the midst of things. I think there'll be some really interesting opportunities with both of those things. Obviously, second screen right now is available. We have teenagers, you know, we have a movie on and they're on their phones more than they're on, you know, watching the movie with us, right? And so...

That second screen space, think, is a really interesting space right now for bringing some more of that interaction with the digital embodiment in there and pushing into that a little bit. I think that's an interesting space to do that in. So I'm thinking about church leaders. And I'm thinking about how hybrid congregations, how are they fostering communities?

spiritual formation around both physical and digital, you know, spaces. What are your insights around that? I mean, we all want to be forming disciples of Christ. We want to be forming people in a direction. know, research shows a lot of that happens in community. And so just wondering about how you think about community dynamics in kind of both of these worlds in ⁓ a hybrid as well.

Yeah. I mean, I'm coming at this in my church that I work at ⁓ is a kind of traditional first expanding into the online space, kind of hybrid congregation. But to me, what has been helpful is to think of people who are engaged in church online as genuine members of the community and to give them opportunities to serve and to lead. So as an example of this at my church, is

an elderly couple who discovered our congregation during COVID. They became members and have been regularly engaged ever since then, but they face some health issues that make it impractical and frankly unsafe for them to come to the church building on Sunday mornings. So they love tuning in to watch the stream service, but I realized that that didn't need to be the full extent of their connection to the church.

So, you know, in addition to pastoral visits to their home or having a deacon who cares for their family, each of them has led in worship in different ways. So, I've been able to visit them in their home and pre-record something like a testimony or a scripture reading or other element of the worship service. Because our church already uses projected slides in our worship service, adding a video isn't really a major hurdle. And it's turned out to be so meaningful both to this family,

and to the rest of the congregation for them to be able to lead and worship and not just be passive participants or just consuming content that we put out, but to be a part of what we're doing. ⁓ So I think something like that has led to us feeling so much more connected to each other and more aware of the presence of our broader community because of this kind of leadership. I imagine with different congregations,

kind of along that spectrum of hybridity and what's primary for them, that may look a little bit different. But I think finding ways to cross over between those spaces can be meaningful. I think, you know, another way to do this is during a worship service, you can have some kind of interactive moment that allows for participation in the service and invite people to engage in conversation or reflection. This can be happening simultaneously in the church building, in the sanctuary.

and also online. that often would require a minister or congregant to be on the stream or whatnot, posting questions and responding to people who are providing answers. You can do that during a live ⁓ worship service, but it does take a little bit of advanced planning. ⁓ I've done this with something like a Lectio Divina or a communal scripture reading where you can...

have a community online and in person, hearing and reading scripture together, they can reflect and pray as they sense God speaking to them and they can share those insights with others. So that can lead to some really wonderful conversations that can kind of cross that divide.

Yeah. I'll talk a little bit about sacraments and a kind of a digital embodied space. I think that's an interesting piece. You know, there are denominations that, you know, have sacraments as a very formative part of their, you know, weekly church gathering. My tradition, we do, you know, communion once a month or something along those lines. And so, I'm just wondering about kind of the digital embodiment, this hybrid kind of space.

How do we partake in sacraments? What do sacraments mean in kind of this developing area that we're in?

Yeah, I would say it depends. As you mentioned, I think different church traditions think of sacraments, some would call them ordinances very differently. So at baseline, I don't think there's a one size fits all approach of how this works. And the Catholic church recognizes seven sacraments. think two of the primary ones that people wonder about most when it comes to hybrid church are communion and baptism. And different denominations practice those quite differently. So,

I think at a baseline, would say that ministers and denominational leaders have the responsibility to help their churches understand the significance of these important faith practices for their particular tradition and to discern what makes sense contextually for their community's needs and for their theology. But I do think that theology of a given community will impact how this plays out. for instance, my church understands the Eucharist symbolically and our particular theology of that means

we have no qualms telling people who are joining us online, that as we enter into a time of sharing the Lord's Supper together, they are welcome to participate with whatever items of food and drink they have close to hand. So they partake with us and are part of that moment of sharing. But in other traditions, that might not be appropriate. So I would imagine then the questions become, how can we minister to our people who may not be able to be with us in the room? I actually come back to

the book of Acts in this conversation where the task of the first deacons was to see to the needs of people in the community who might be overlooked. So for a church tradition that might not be as comfortable with a more flexible practice of the Lord's Supper, maybe a deacon or minister can take the elements to homebound members and make sure they are included. So I don't think it's necessarily my place to prescribe how churches should do this.

but I think there are opportunities for us to share in meaningful practices and care for our community. So I think that the starting point should be some openness to wonder how can we care for our people? How can we include them? When it comes to baptism, I did have a conversation with that pastor who works in virtual reality spaces that I mentioned before, who has done virtual reality baptisms. That's not something that I expect my local church will be doing anytime soon, ⁓ but it was really thought-provoking to me.

to hear both from this pastor and the person who was baptized, what that experience was like, how meaningful it was to their faith journey, how they felt in the moment, what they experienced. Because a lot of the things that this individual shared, there's a video of this VR baptism available online, line up very closely with what I think many people expect baptism to mean and how many people who are converting to Christianity are joining a church through baptism.

expect that experience to the meaning they expect that to carry. So I think, you know, those are tricky questions and I think we're going to be working through those for a long time. I think it's also interesting to note that I think throughout the church's history and then even, you know, prior to the coming of Christ in the people of Israel, the importance of various practices and places

has shifted through time by necessity. At some points, the temple in Jerusalem was hugely important to Jewish worship. And then after the destruction of the temple, there's some negotiation that happens. How do we do this now? What is meaningful to our community? How do we worship God? Or during an exile, how do we worship God in a foreign land? Those are live questions that you have to figure out. I think of the desert fathers and mothers who...

were out in solitude in worship and contemplation and didn't have access to the same kind of worshiping community to participate in the sacraments. So they took on a different meaning and emphasis. I'm not saying that I think, you I don't think we're done with these sacraments. I think they're an important and central part of our faith communities. But there's throughout the church's history, there's been some negotiation of how do those fit in?

to what we do together as a community. So I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming decades, there's some renegotiation of how we do these things together.

Yeah, I was having a conversation with a local pastor friend here in our community and he was just talking about, know, denominations and the decline of people entering, you know, as a pastor, you know, they're too costly. Seminars are closing left and right. You know, how do I go through all this education to get to the place that making less than anyone else in my community is, you know, those type of things and stuff.

We were having this conversation and I had this realization. was like, think this is actually where technology can help us is having a pastoral voice as let's say someone that's preaching a sermon and maybe that person is in a different city, part of your denomination and whatnot. But then you really rely on the local leadership, right? You really rely on the people within the church structure, the volunteers to kind of

have that kind of embodied in-person experience, but you know, maybe teaching from afar. You know, it's not a foolproof thing, right? But I think it is an interesting kind of piece in the mix. What would you say to, you know, pastors who are 100 % reluctant on anything virtual whatsoever, hybrid or, you know, solely virtual?

And then what would you say to those that are living in that space constantly? Your friend that, you know, is leading a VR church and ministering there. Just curious on kind of your, you're living kind of in this middle space, right? And so just interested in on kind of what you would, how you would guide or what you would tell folks on either side of that.

Yeah, I think that's one of the interesting things about this book being out in the world and hearing feedback from people in different locations, know, a pastor at a church in Texas reflecting on, you know, what does it mean for us to be able to engage with these technologies that can expand and enhance our ministry in our local congregations, you know, in that physical space and not detract from it.

Because I do think there is that kind of anxiety about, you know, when a new technology comes along, there's, yes, there's the excitement of what is possible with this, but there's also the fear of, this going to change things in a negative sense? And I think that's a consistent pattern we can see through history. And I think there are reasons to be concerned. I get into some of those in the book, but there are reasons to be concerned about the ways these technologies are used. But I think that is an invitation to the church.

than to say, okay, if these technologies can be used in ways that are malforming for people of faith and for humans, are there ways that we can use these constructively? Are there spaces we can create that aren't structured in these destructive ways of constant distraction and monetization and all of that? Are there ways we can invite people into meaningful connection and reflection?

I think to the people who are concerned about these new technologies and maybe don't want any part of it, I would say, okay, it makes sense to be cautious, but I do believe that God is present with us everywhere. And I think that God is present even in online spaces. I don't think it's impossible to encounter meaningful relationship and meaningful connection with God through these things. So the question then, I think for those who are reluctant,

becomes how might these technologies be used in ways that are for good? And as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean jumping on the bandwagon of the newest app necessarily. I think it means starting with that people first approach of where are my people? How can I connect with them? Are there ways that I can grow or stretch a little bit in my use of technology that allow me to minister more effectively to them? I also had a brief

conversation over social media with someone who is a digital church planter and was really excited about this book for the purpose of maybe some people will actually understand a little better what it is that I'm doing of like beginning ministry and connections with these online interactions. I do think that generally our society is heading more in the direction of online interactions being the first connection point. I don't think it's limited to that.

But even how most people encounter a church today is gonna be through social media or the church website or their live stream. And then, you know, they may come to the building and start to build relationships with those people. But I think it makes sense to carry some of that openness and curiosity to the possibility of connections that begin online and then move into physical space. So much of that is real. Those have embodied relational impacts.

⁓ It's not something that is out there in the ether. This is how we communicate in the 21st century. So I think I would invite both of those groups of people, the enthusiasts and the skeptics to come with that person first, relationship first approach and then ask, how can these opportunities, how can we use these things for good while recognizing the potential downsides?

trying to avoid those, limit those, and engage in ways that are positive and towards Christ-likeness and growth.

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I think when we were working with a lot of younger people, and not just younger people, maybe that's an overstatement, but I do think that there is this interesting tension that's developing with so much online media available ⁓ for formation for people that aren't always, I would say, validated, trusted, maybe forms, you know,

20-something social media Christian influencer probably doesn't have the degrees behind their names that they should to be saying some of the things that they're saying. If you talk to Christians in any kind of form for any amount of time, they will tell you about a podcast that they're listening to, right? And how that's kind of forming them, right? In some ways. So it's interesting. I think there's a lot of these pieces, you know, YouTube, podcasts, all these other things.

that are informing us and forming us in significant ways. What do you think about the kind of the digital media landscape as a Christian right now? You know, set aside kind of the church dynamic of thing, but like all the other entities that are coming in to our lives, right? We can really hone in exactly what we believe, how we believe it, and just continue to check the boxes of people that we agree with without being really challenged.

Yeah, this is a big question that I'm living day to day. think one of the things that comes to mind for me in kind of a Christian posture towards engaging with things online is recognizing the underlying, you might call them powers and principalities, but I would call them economies. The ways that these platforms are designed that may not always be for our good and for human flourishing. ⁓ I don't mean that to...

to be alarmist or to say that we shouldn't be on the internet. But I think about this attention economy that is based on constant distraction, that is based on polarization, that is based on forming us into echo chambers and just an overwhelming amount of information that is available to us all, a touch of a screen. It's a new problem for the human race to have to deal with. I think, so,

I don't know that, I think we are at the beginning stages of recognizing these things and it'll be decades before we get to a more clear-eyed posture towards this, know, better legislation around what can and can't be done on these platforms, better discernment of when you see this happening online, you know, to just walk the other way, this isn't going to be helpful or constructive. But I think for me, the mindset I try to bring to most of these things is,

what kind of response is this designed to elicit from me? And is that a posture I want to be entering into? Is this constructive? Does this fall into the things we should think about such things that are good and lovely and praiseworthy and for the flourishing of human lives and of creation? Because I think even faith-related content can fall into that kind of...

downward spiral of reinforcing our own narrow ideas, cutting us off from connection with other people. So I think something that came to mind a bit earlier for me was thinking about, you know, in this huge spectrum of information and even faith-based content that might be available to us, I do still think there is a huge importance to the local community of faith in that, ⁓ because I think...

there is a level of trust and context and specificity that comes from being in relationship with other people and being able to have that kind of mirror and interaction that helps us see a bit more clearly. ⁓ So, you know, is it wonderful that there are podcasts and educational resources out there from all these, you know, different wonderful educated Christian thinkers? Yes, that's great. I enjoy some of these things a whole lot myself, but it's your own...

pastor or your own deacon or your own, you know, fellow church member who knows you and knows your life and your circumstance and can both encourage you more specifically to what is happening in your life and also can, you know, give some more credence if they need to call you out on something of, hey, I'm not sure that this way of thinking is constructive or this way of living is gonna be positive for you. So I think

It's a brand new landscape. is overwhelming. It is a whole, whole lot. And I think it comes back to the task of discernment ⁓ in community. We need each other. So I think that's a piece of it.

Yeah. Michael, question for you. What's your vision for the future of worship and a digitally integrated world?

I think my primary hope is that the Church can engage in this digitally integrated world that we're in now in ways that push back against alienation and objectification and fragmentation. I think these technologies have been used in ways that separate and divide us and keep us distracted and disconnected instead of attending to the depth of meaning and connection between ourselves and God and each other.

So I want to see the church resisting that cultural force and also creating spaces, even online, that invite us to worship, to listen to others, to be compassionate and to more fully embody the love of Christ. I think that's my hope, my vision for worship in a digital world, that we lean more towards that and don't try to shape the church to be successful in an online economic model. I don't think that's the point. The point is

being shaped into Christlikeness.

Yeah. Well, Michael, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Really love the conversation. I love the book, The Hybrid Congregation, Practical Theology of Worship for an Online Era. Make sure you get it from InterVarsity Press. We'll be linking the show notes below. And we'd love for you to pick up a copy. Michael, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate you being with us today.

Thank you, Daniel. Really appreciated this talk. Thank you.

Well, thank you, audience. ⁓ We encourage you to go in peace.

Thank you for tuning into the Upwards Podcast. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. For more information about the S.L. Brown Foundation and Upper House, please visit slbf.org. Go in peace to be a light on our campuses, in our churches, and in our businesses so that all may flourish.